WEBVTT - Tiki Torch Mistrial 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.800 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.160 Welcome back to it could happen here in a daily 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.240 podcast about the widening cracks in society threatening to swallow 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.400 you whole. I am once again your occasional host, Molly Conger, 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:18.520 joined today by your friend and mine, Robert Evans him. 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:22.760 Yeah, friends of all people, how are you doing? 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:23.000 Molly? 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.480 Billy started things off, I heard my feelings. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.880 Yeah, well, you know, you and I have been buddies 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:31.280 for a while. We're a special kind of friend that 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.000 can only exist in the era of signal loops because 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.760 we met in twenty twenty and then since then the 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.520 bulk of our socializing has been one or the other 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.120 of us being like, so, this fucked up thing happened 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:45.120 to me on the internet. 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:48.639 Yeah, that's friends at the end of the. 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.680 World's friends at the end of the world. Yeah, watching 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:53.479 the long slow slide together. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 Well, today I've got sort of an update on the 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.360 ongoing cases against the Nazis who invaded my local college 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.040 campus seven years ago. I see, it's sort of because 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.440 it's a messy story and the end result is nothing. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.160 So we finally got a case to trial and nothing changed. 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.039 So for listeners who aren't keeping tabs on my local 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.840 county courts effort to apply an old anti clan law 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.720 to a Nazi rally that happened a lifetime ago. Just 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.440 a quick reminder, Yeah, long time ago. This is about 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.120 the August eleventh, twenty seventeen torch march held at the 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.520 University of Virginia on the eve of the Unite the 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.360 Right rally in Charlottesville. I've done a couple. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.440 This is not the rally. This is not the precise 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.440 like the rally where there was the James Alexfield did 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.440 his vehicle based terrorist attack. This was the thing that 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:41.280 happened before that. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.639 This was the appetizer, right, This was the night before 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.480 they all got together and held their torches. And so 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.120 I've done a couple episodes about these cases, and I've 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.440 been writing about them in my newsletter, The Devil's Advocate. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.800 So if you want a deeper dive into the cases, 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:58.160 more generally, that is available elsewhere. So in the year 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.120 in change since these cases started getting filed, we've seen 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.400 eleven guys charged under this sort of obscure Virginia law 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.520 that makes it a felony to burn an object with 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.600 the intent to intimidate. It's based on an old anti 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.400 clan law criminalizing cross burning. But back in nineteen ninety eight, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:15.560 a couple of clansmen got into some trouble for burning 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.400 some crosses. And I'm trying to break myself off the 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.839 habit of getting really deep into these sort of tangential 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.320 pieces of history that underlie a story, because it turns 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.200 out that's my special interest and not actually great podcasting. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:29.200 But the long and the short of it is, Virginia's 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.160 cross burning statute had to be amended. The original law 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.680 banned it outright, with this sort of built in assumption 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.880 that like, obviously, if you're burning across you're trying to 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.080 communicate a certain kind of threat. But the law didn't 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.760 actually say that, it just made it illegal to do it. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.639 And so the act itself of burning the cross under 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.720 the old law was prima facia evidence of intent to intimidate, 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.200 and the courts ultimately found that that's unconstitutional. So in 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.520 two thousand and two, the General Assembly amended the law, 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.440 and they just added in some specific language that you 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.120 have to be doue it with a specific intent, right, 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.160 you have to be doing this to intimidate someone. Again, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.079 that's kind of implied, but the implication was not sufficient, 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.200 so they changed it. I know that sounds like some 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.000 really like C span level, like boring shit, like legislative 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:15.760 history is not why you're here, But I promise that's 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.440 gonna pay off. Right, So, the law doesn't specify what 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.960 you're burning. It's not just crosses, it's any burning object, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.480 but it does say you have to be doing it 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:24.560 with a particular intent and in a way. 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.200 Could you theoretically smoke a cigarette in an aggressive manner 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:29.480 and violate this law. 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.280 Power The Nazis lawyers keep asking that, and I don't 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:33.800 know the I feel like the answer is. 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:35.800 Iry to see great minds think alike. 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.600 I feel like every every one of these guys' lawyers 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:40.760 has been like, what if I flicked a cigarette at you? 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.040 And it's like, I mean, well. 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.280 Flicking as I would say that that's clearly a sight 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.440 because you can actually hurt someone with it, but like 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:49.280 just smoking it right, like with that tex. 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.840 Right, Like if I'm smoking a cigarette while harassing you, you. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:54.800 Know, yeah, yeah, I'd be like, you're gonna go up 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.920 like this cigarette, bro, and then I light this cigarette? 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.040 Like is that if I violated it? 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.200 I mean, I guess maybe, but it's all sort of contextual, right, 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:05.960 so the language of the law is what it is. 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:07.440 You could try to bring that case. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.880 I'm not sure that it would work, but anyway, so 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.720 you bring an object specifically in a way that would 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.880 make somebody feel like you're gonna hurt them, right, so 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.880 placing someone in fear of injury or death. But since 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.880 that change was made in two thousand and two, nobody's 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.159 ever actually been charged with it. So, like many laws, 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.920 like Virginia's prohibition on trying to incite a race war, 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:30.839 that is apparently a Class four felony. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.800 Yeah, Thomas Jefferson might have had a hand in that law. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:35.440 That's scance. 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.760 Actually it's from nineteen fifty and I'm really interested in 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.960 the legislative history. I'm gonna ask a law librarian. But 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.400 again I'm lost again, I'm lost again. So this has 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.320 just been sitting on the books for twenty years, waiting 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:50.159 for somebody to try it, and so last year somebody 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.600 tried it. Last year, somebody finally put the law to 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.159 the test and started charging the guys who participated in 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.280 that torch march. And what better application of this law, right, 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.880 I can't think of a clearer example. They're on fire, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.000 they're chanting blood and soil, they're throwing Hitler salutes, they're 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.240 attacking people. And of the eleven men charged so far, 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.200 five have already pled guilty. Four of those have already 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.920 been sentenced, all receiving active sentences of a year or less, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.000 and they've actually already completed those sentences. Only half of 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.200 those guys actually went home from here, though, And then 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.520 the little aside Tyler Dyke served a few months here 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:25.240 and then he got picked up by the US Marshalls 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.160 on federal charges for the insurrection. William Fears served a year, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.000 and he actually just got picked up the other day 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:34.159 by a county in Pennsylvania. It's an old bench warrant. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.159 He's been in jail so many times in so many 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.080 states for the last twenty years that they've actually been 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.599 having trouble getting a hold of him for violating his 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.280 probation fifteen years ago. They let him off on probation 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.920 for lying on a firearm application in two thousand and five, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.200 but then he kidnapped a college freshman and stabbed her 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.520 in the face, which I think was a probation violation, 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.120 And by the time they got around to bringing him 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:57.760 in he was already back in prison for strangling a 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.400 different woman. Again another digression. Sorry, So even though we've 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.520 had five guilty please, we still hadn't actually seen this 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.400 case taken to trial. So we know five defendants looked 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.320 at the evidence and thought, oh, yeah, well that's a 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.680 video of me committing that crime. We still didn't know 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.440 what a jury would make of it. And this month 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.960 Jacob Dix took his case to trial, and we still 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.080 don't actually know what a jury would make of it 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:26.800 because it ended in a mistrial. After twelve hours of 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.720 deliberation over the course of two days, which was significantly 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.839 longer than they actually spent hearing the evidence, the jury 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.120 was deadlocked. They had eight not guilty votes, three guilty, 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.400 and one person who didn't have an opinion either way. 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.000 A source tells me the jurors all agreed not to 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.320 make any public statements or to discuss what happened in 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.560 the deliberation room, so we don't know for sure what 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.480 the debate was like in there. But I sat through 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.120 the trial, and honestly, I know what kind of case 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.800 I would have put on right, So obviously, obviously I 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.080 believe a guilty verdict is achievable in this case. But 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.400 given what I saw, I'm surprised even a single juror 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.719 voted guilty. There's just there's nothing there. But before I 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:08.839 tell you about the three days I wasted sitting on 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:10.600 a wooden bench in a courtroom they used to use 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.880 for clan meetings, let's hear from some advertisers. 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:30.680 Ah, speaking of the nope, nope for ads. Ah, we're back. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:32.720 What a what a time to be alive. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:34.000 We are alive. 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.600 The trial started on June fourth, and it did not 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.920 go well. I've written about this at greater length in 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.200 my newsletter if you want some background on why the 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.720 case ended up with a special prosecutor. But basically, the 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.400 judge fell for a Nazi conspiracy theory and that's where 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.960 we ended up. So the case goes to try good. Yeah, 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.560 you know, I I have a problem with the system 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:57.840 in Virginia of these substitute judges. So we had to 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.960 bring in a substitute judge. And it's just retired guys. 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.120 So they take cases if they feel like it. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.560 They don't, yeah, so they just add yeah, just ad 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:09.520 hoc judging. Sure, that seems good. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.600 Hey, there's a retirement age for a reason like, I 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.800 don't know that you're keeping up with the case law. Anyway, 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.360 we had a substitute judge and a special prosecutor, so 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.840 the case goes to trial with an out of town prosecutor. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.800 And because of how late in the game this motion 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.840 was granted. And there's the speedy trial clock, they had 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.080 a pretty limited amount of time to get up to 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.120 speed after being assigned the case to prepare for trial. 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:33.120 So they didn't know the case. They don't know the 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.600 local cops, they don't know the witnesses, they're not familiar 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.600 with the clerk of court here. Just like basic procedural stuff. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.880 This is not their home turf, and they don't really 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.200 have any investment in this case. This isn't something that 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:47.520 they chose to charge. It's just assigned to them. And again, 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.679 this is the first time this law has ever been 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.920 put in front of a jury, So there's no playbook here, right. 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:55.840 They can't sort of look to how this usually goes 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.079 and just do that. The real problem, though, is something 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:04.000 that's not unique at all. A prosecutor is desperate for 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.679 a good victim. They want something that is clean and uncomplicated. 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:10.520 They want to be able to show the jury, a 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.280 little morality play with good guys and bad guys, and 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.520 no messy stuff. They don't want the story to have 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.440 any elements that could snag on a juror's ideas about 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.640 the world. So instead of telling a story about anti 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:27.360 fascists being attacked by fascists, which is what happened, they 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.840 shaped their case around testimony from a bystander. 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.840 Oh good, the most reliable kind of testimony. Yeah, now, I. 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.640 Remember I promised that boring stuff about the statutory requirement 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.160 of intent would pay off. Right, Well, I'm not sure 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.880 the prosecutor understood that well. And if I were to 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.480 tell you that something was making me feel intimidated, you know, generally, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.840 sort of colloquially speaking, I'm saying I'm afraid. I'm being 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:53.960 made to feel timid. Is the root of the word, right, 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.720 I am uncomfortable. I am afraid, But it means something 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.440 really specific here. It doesn't just mean being afraid in 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.800 conjunction with that language about placing someone in reasonable fear 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.880 of bodily injury or death. We're not talking about feeling afraid. 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.520 We're talking about the legal idea of a true threat. 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.120 So a true threat is something that is not free speech. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.680 It is conduct and expression that is no longer protected 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.120 by the First Amendment. And I'm not going to go 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.160 to bat here for the First Amendment. I'm not going 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.559 to defend this sort of like libertarian idea that actually 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.760 it's good and healthy for a society that people can 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.360 march around playing Junior Stormtrooper. But you know, technically they 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.600 can right love it or hate it. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.200 That's not what we're talking about it. It's the difference 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.640 between saying I think the government should round up and 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.680 kill this group of people, which is absolutely protected speech, 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.040 and saying I am going to murder you tonight in 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.520 your home at this address, which you theoretically can get 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.120 in trouble for, although a lot of times people don't. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.280 You know, in my experience, people who see that to 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.680 me don't get in trouble. But I'm not sure that's. Yes, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.079 it's a legal thing. 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.520 It's mainly they get in trouble with they do that 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.760 to FBI agents, as that one Trump fan did after 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.079 Hunter Biden's conviction. 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.319 Or there's been a rash lately of people getting picked 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.160 up after they leave a voicemail at a congressional office. 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:13.480 Don't leave a threat in a voice. 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.800 Okay, don't don't that. Yeah, Wyatt, what are you? What 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.720 are you doing? How do you think this is going 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.000 to work out? People are cooked? 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:24.200 So a lot of people are learning lately what a 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:25.040 true threat is. 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:25.360 Right. 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.240 So, you know, up until that point, there's a lot 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.600 of shit you could do that sucks. You can march 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.480 around and be a little Nazi with your pals, but 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.640 what you cannot do is engage in conduct that constitutes 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.200 a truth threat. And I think drawing that line in 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.000 a really clear way for the jury is what this 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:44.080 case should have been about. 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:44.880 I think they. 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.160 Needed to hold the jury's hand through that, you know, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.560 and say, you know, the defense is making this a 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.120 free speech case. And if it had stopped here, if 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.480 it had stopped at this point, you know, show them 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.439 where it stopped, where it changed. But they didn't do that, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:03.080 and they left that line really blurry because the problem 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.400 is the point at which that line was crossed was 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.960 when that march encircled the small group of counter protesters, right, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.200 So they spent half an hour marching and then they 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.440 got to where they were going, and that's when it 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.160 crossed the line. You know, they lit their torches, they 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.200 marched they chanted. It was obviously intended to evoke Nazi Germany. 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:24.440 You know, there's same blood and soil. Jews will not 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.360 replace us. It's a real Hitler vibe. And a lot 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.440 of people who are on the fence about the prosecutions 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.959 are looking at that and saying, well, yeah, like that's disgusting, 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:34.800 But isn't that free speech? 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.480 And it is. 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.680 Most of that was right, So most of that conduct 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.839 was not against the law. You know, if you saw that, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.160 you might feel afraid. People did, and that makes sense. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.520 It was very alarming to see. It might make you 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:54.160 feel unsafe, and it could and definitely did eventually evolve 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:58.200 into a situation where people are unsafe, But seeing them 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.680 pass by doesn't actually put you in a position where 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.600 you might die. I mean, not right at the moment anyway. Right, 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.320 you know, the law doesn't really extend to the idea 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.360 that this is part of a larger societal shift that 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.280 ends violently. You know, this existential thread of the rise 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.000 of fascism doesn't constitute a true threat in the immediate 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:18.319 sense under the law. Right. 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.840 Yeah, A guy, a dude in a similar situation in 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:27.319 DC in twenty twenty stabbed a person and got off 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.320 because it was very clear that he like, when you 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:31.880 are surrounded. 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.240 That's true threat, right, that you are in imminent danger. Right. 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:39.240 And it wasn't just a person. 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:44.079 That was Jeremy I know, Yeah, that was Jeremy Bertino. 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:45.959 One of my favorite stabbings. 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.000 Yeah, just a weird turn of events for Jeremy because 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:55.200 the month before he got stabbed it was oh gosh, 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:56.880 it was one of the other Proud Way rallies in DC. 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.480 I was surrounded by a group of proud boys that 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.120 he was come and so I was in that the 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.400 same position, and I was getting a little nervous because 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:06.760 they were starting to, you know, get in my face 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.920 and touch me and try and move me around. Jeremy 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.640 actually made them stop. You know, you know, you don't chivalry, 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.480 You don't got a hand it to Jeremy. But I 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:17.800 think he knew it would have been bad for them 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:18.560 if they stabbed me. 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.360 Little did he know, Yeah, he would be there, whereas 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.680 the guy who stabbed him was in block and such. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.440 Yeah, just a strange, strange twist of history for Jeremy. 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:33.840 Now he states, witness m h anyway, where were we 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.160 we could cut some of that. I'm out of it. Today. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.680 We're both in a bad way right now. 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.080 Yeah, I think everyone's always in a bad way these days. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:47.600 That's it's worth acknowledging. I can't sleep anymore. You're frazzled, 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:50.920 like welcome to twenty twenty four. It's fine. We're doing 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.040 as well as either a presidential candidate. 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.320 I had to wait until the recess in the city 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.320 council meeting yesterday to go outside and check on the 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.880 drive by on my block. Likes are going good. 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:03.800 Yeah, things are things are solid. 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:09.400 Uh yeah, Should I just take that whole paragraph. 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.640 From the top, sure, yeah, started. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.400 Because I don't even know where to re start. 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:17.400 Okay. 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.360 It wasn't until the march encounter the counter protesters that 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.080 there was truly intentional intimidation that placed them in fear 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.720 of injury or death. The people who were trapped, and 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:27.960 I mean that literally, all avenues of escape were close 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.280 to them. The march formed a circle around them that 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.400 was ten men deep. Those were the victims of this crime. 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.800 They were beaten and punched and kicked and pepper sprayed. 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.480 It were shoved and hit with lit torches. They thought 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:47.160 they would die. But those people are complicated, aren't they right? 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.840 Those people were Antifa, they were activists, they were believers 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.640 in Black Lives Matter, they were communists, the anarchists, right, 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.160 queer people, trans people, people of color, people who attend 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.680 protests have attended more since there were people who hated Nazis. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.040 There were people with skin in the game. 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.240 People whose existence is inherently politicized, and thus attempts to 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.960 destroy them can't just be seen as a human being 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.000 being assaulted. They have to be seen as like, well, 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.000 is the thing that they believe and my opinions on 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:20.840 it as a judge a mitigating factor. 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:25.960 Right. It's messy, it shouldn't be, but it is right. 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.200 These were people who believe that we have a duty 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.600 to each other to stand in the way of the 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.360 march of fascism, and that night, that's literally what they did. 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.680 And that's murky for a prosecutor. What if the jury 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.960 doesn't like that, What if maybe just a little bit 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.600 they deserved it? Right? Does the law really still protect 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.479 you if you make a choice a jury doesn't understand? 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.000 And so the prosecutor chose to rest this case on 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.040 the shoulders of a young woman whose front door the 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.960 march past that night on its way to the scene 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.800 of the crime. As a young Jewish woman alone in 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:03.880 her room that night, she was terrified to hear the 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.040 approaching Nazi march. She took off a necklace in a 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.760 ring bearing symbols of her faith and hid them before 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:14.199 she fled her home in fear. She was absolutely a 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.400 victim of white supremacist terror. But I do not think 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.720 she was a victim under the language of this statute. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:23.679 And I want to be so clear about that, right. 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.520 I'm not saying what happened to her was okay, or 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.880 that it's her fault that the case was presented this way. 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.560 She was subpoena, she gave the testimony she was required 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:33.960 by the law to give, and she gave it well. 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.399 And she's obviously deeply traumatized by this. And so when 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.080 I say she's not a victim of the crime, when 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.240 I say that, you know, the fear that she felt 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.960 does not meet this legal standard, I don't mean anything 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.200 other than that there are far more ways to harm 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.240 a person and a community than have been contemplated by 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:57.800 our part time General Assembly. But under this statute, being frightened, 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:02.359 however reasonable, that is, however serious, does she felt that 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.879 fear is not the same as being placed in reasonable 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.879 fear of death or bodily injury. I think her testimony 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:11.840 could have been really valuable as a supplement to this 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.119 overall presentation because she was very emotional. I think it 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.880 was very moving for the jury, but it didn't move 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.400 the needle legally, and I think it was a really 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.639 perilous foundation on which to try to construct a case. 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.359 But you know, it would not be a perilous course 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.440 of action for you to take Robert Jesus Christ. 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.639 So it would be perilous if I didn't get this 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.800 ad break in because Sophie has a taser now, So 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.000 let's just let's just move right along. 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:40.840 Does it ever stop feeling dirty to do that? 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:42.479 No? 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:42.520 No? 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.639 I mean, you know what doesn't feel dirty these days, Mollie. 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.440 What feels clean probably buying. I pay so much in 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.080 taxes and that always feels dirty. Like I know where 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.840 they're going. I see the celebrities signing the bombs they 0:18:55.880 --> 0:19:09.560 helped pay. I don't feel good about anything. We're back, 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.600 and you know, here's a free ad, Molly. I found 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.280 out where I can buy the really good mace. I 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.320 learned about this mace the right way to learn about mace, 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.600 which is I had it used on me and was like, Wow, 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.200 that mace was much more debilitating than normal mace. 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.439 You've got a free sample, cops. 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.400 Yeah, I got a free sample from two different federal 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.400 agencies and it knocked me at a commission for about 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.960 a half hour each time, which is pretty good for mace. 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.360 It's called silver bullet and it's a like a ten 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.800 percent OC two percent cs. I maybe mixing those up mix, 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:41.959 but you're not supposed to be able to buy it 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.320 if you're not law enforcement. But it's not illegal. So 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.320 I finally just found a website that doesn't doesn't check, 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.480 and now I've got the good mace. I don't really 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:50.840 know what to do with it. 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:52.879 But does it actually have silver in it? Will it 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:53.920