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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to it could happen here in a daily

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Speaker 2: podcast about the widening cracks in society threatening to swallow

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Speaker 2: you whole. I am once again your occasional host, Molly Conger,

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Speaker 2: joined today by your friend and mine, Robert Evans him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, friends of all people, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Molly?

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Speaker 2: Billy started things off, I heard my feelings.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, you and I have been buddies

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Speaker 3: for a while. We're a special kind of friend that

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Speaker 3: can only exist in the era of signal loops because

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Speaker 3: we met in twenty twenty and then since then the

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Speaker 3: bulk of our socializing has been one or the other

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Speaker 3: of us being like, so, this fucked up thing happened

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Speaker 3: to me on the internet.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's friends at the end of the.

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Speaker 3: World's friends at the end of the world. Yeah, watching

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Speaker 3: the long slow slide together.

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Speaker 2: Well, today I've got sort of an update on the

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Speaker 2: ongoing cases against the Nazis who invaded my local college

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Speaker 2: campus seven years ago. I see, it's sort of because

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Speaker 2: it's a messy story and the end result is nothing.

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Speaker 2: So we finally got a case to trial and nothing changed.

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Speaker 2: So for listeners who aren't keeping tabs on my local

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Speaker 2: county courts effort to apply an old anti clan law

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Speaker 2: to a Nazi rally that happened a lifetime ago. Just

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Speaker 2: a quick reminder, Yeah, long time ago. This is about

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Speaker 2: the August eleventh, twenty seventeen torch march held at the

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Speaker 2: University of Virginia on the eve of the Unite the

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Speaker 2: Right rally in Charlottesville. I've done a couple.

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Speaker 3: This is not the rally. This is not the precise

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Speaker 3: like the rally where there was the James Alexfield did

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Speaker 3: his vehicle based terrorist attack. This was the thing that

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Speaker 3: happened before that.

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Speaker 2: This was the appetizer, right, This was the night before

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Speaker 2: they all got together and held their torches. And so

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Speaker 2: I've done a couple episodes about these cases, and I've

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Speaker 2: been writing about them in my newsletter, The Devil's Advocate.

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Speaker 2: So if you want a deeper dive into the cases,

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Speaker 2: more generally, that is available elsewhere. So in the year

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Speaker 2: in change since these cases started getting filed, we've seen

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Speaker 2: eleven guys charged under this sort of obscure Virginia law

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Speaker 2: that makes it a felony to burn an object with

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Speaker 2: the intent to intimidate. It's based on an old anti

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Speaker 2: clan law criminalizing cross burning. But back in nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 2: a couple of clansmen got into some trouble for burning

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Speaker 2: some crosses. And I'm trying to break myself off the

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Speaker 2: habit of getting really deep into these sort of tangential

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Speaker 2: pieces of history that underlie a story, because it turns

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Speaker 2: out that's my special interest and not actually great podcasting.

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Speaker 2: But the long and the short of it is, Virginia's

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Speaker 2: cross burning statute had to be amended. The original law

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Speaker 2: banned it outright, with this sort of built in assumption

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Speaker 2: that like, obviously, if you're burning across you're trying to

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Speaker 2: communicate a certain kind of threat. But the law didn't

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Speaker 2: actually say that, it just made it illegal to do it.

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Speaker 2: And so the act itself of burning the cross under

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Speaker 2: the old law was prima facia evidence of intent to intimidate,

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Speaker 2: and the courts ultimately found that that's unconstitutional. So in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and two, the General Assembly amended the law,

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Speaker 2: and they just added in some specific language that you

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Speaker 2: have to be doue it with a specific intent, right,

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Speaker 2: you have to be doing this to intimidate someone. Again,

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Speaker 2: that's kind of implied, but the implication was not sufficient,

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Speaker 2: so they changed it. I know that sounds like some

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Speaker 2: really like C span level, like boring shit, like legislative

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Speaker 2: history is not why you're here, But I promise that's

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Speaker 2: gonna pay off. Right, So, the law doesn't specify what

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Speaker 2: you're burning. It's not just crosses, it's any burning object,

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Speaker 2: but it does say you have to be doing it

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Speaker 2: with a particular intent and in a way.

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Speaker 3: Could you theoretically smoke a cigarette in an aggressive manner

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Speaker 3: and violate this law.

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Speaker 2: Power The Nazis lawyers keep asking that, and I don't

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Speaker 2: know the I feel like the answer is.

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Speaker 3: Iry to see great minds think alike.

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Speaker 2: I feel like every every one of these guys' lawyers

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Speaker 2: has been like, what if I flicked a cigarette at you?

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Speaker 4: And it's like, I mean, well.

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Speaker 3: Flicking as I would say that that's clearly a sight

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Speaker 3: because you can actually hurt someone with it, but like

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Speaker 3: just smoking it right, like with that tex.

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Speaker 2: Right, Like if I'm smoking a cigarette while harassing you, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, yeah, yeah, I'd be like, you're gonna go up

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Speaker 3: like this cigarette, bro, and then I light this cigarette?

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Speaker 3: Like is that if I violated it?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess maybe, but it's all sort of contextual, right,

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Speaker 2: so the language of the law is what it is.

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Speaker 4: You could try to bring that case.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that it would work, but anyway, so

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Speaker 2: you bring an object specifically in a way that would

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Speaker 2: make somebody feel like you're gonna hurt them, right, so

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Speaker 2: placing someone in fear of injury or death. But since

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Speaker 2: that change was made in two thousand and two, nobody's

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Speaker 2: ever actually been charged with it. So, like many laws,

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Speaker 2: like Virginia's prohibition on trying to incite a race war,

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Speaker 2: that is apparently a Class four felony.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Thomas Jefferson might have had a hand in that law.

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Speaker 3: That's scance.

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Speaker 2: Actually it's from nineteen fifty and I'm really interested in

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Speaker 2: the legislative history. I'm gonna ask a law librarian. But

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Speaker 2: again I'm lost again, I'm lost again. So this has

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Speaker 2: just been sitting on the books for twenty years, waiting

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Speaker 2: for somebody to try it, and so last year somebody

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Speaker 2: tried it. Last year, somebody finally put the law to

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Speaker 2: the test and started charging the guys who participated in

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Speaker 2: that torch march. And what better application of this law, right,

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Speaker 2: I can't think of a clearer example. They're on fire,

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Speaker 2: they're chanting blood and soil, they're throwing Hitler salutes, they're

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Speaker 2: attacking people. And of the eleven men charged so far,

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Speaker 2: five have already pled guilty. Four of those have already

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Speaker 2: been sentenced, all receiving active sentences of a year or less,

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Speaker 2: and they've actually already completed those sentences. Only half of

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Speaker 2: those guys actually went home from here, though, And then

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Speaker 2: the little aside Tyler Dyke served a few months here

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Speaker 2: and then he got picked up by the US Marshalls

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Speaker 2: on federal charges for the insurrection. William Fears served a year,

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Speaker 2: and he actually just got picked up the other day

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Speaker 2: by a county in Pennsylvania. It's an old bench warrant.

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Speaker 2: He's been in jail so many times in so many

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Speaker 2: states for the last twenty years that they've actually been

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Speaker 2: having trouble getting a hold of him for violating his

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Speaker 2: probation fifteen years ago. They let him off on probation

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Speaker 2: for lying on a firearm application in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 2: but then he kidnapped a college freshman and stabbed her

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Speaker 2: in the face, which I think was a probation violation,

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Speaker 2: And by the time they got around to bringing him

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Speaker 2: in he was already back in prison for strangling a

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Speaker 2: different woman. Again another digression. Sorry, So even though we've

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Speaker 2: had five guilty please, we still hadn't actually seen this

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Speaker 2: case taken to trial. So we know five defendants looked

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Speaker 2: at the evidence and thought, oh, yeah, well that's a

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Speaker 2: video of me committing that crime. We still didn't know

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Speaker 2: what a jury would make of it. And this month

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Speaker 2: Jacob Dix took his case to trial, and we still

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Speaker 2: don't actually know what a jury would make of it

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Speaker 2: because it ended in a mistrial. After twelve hours of

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Speaker 2: deliberation over the course of two days, which was significantly

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Speaker 2: longer than they actually spent hearing the evidence, the jury

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Speaker 2: was deadlocked. They had eight not guilty votes, three guilty,

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Speaker 2: and one person who didn't have an opinion either way.

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Speaker 2: A source tells me the jurors all agreed not to

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Speaker 2: make any public statements or to discuss what happened in

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Speaker 2: the deliberation room, so we don't know for sure what

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Speaker 2: the debate was like in there. But I sat through

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Speaker 2: the trial, and honestly, I know what kind of case

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Speaker 2: I would have put on right, So obviously, obviously I

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Speaker 2: believe a guilty verdict is achievable in this case. But

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Speaker 2: given what I saw, I'm surprised even a single juror

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Speaker 2: voted guilty. There's just there's nothing there. But before I

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Speaker 2: tell you about the three days I wasted sitting on

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Speaker 2: a wooden bench in a courtroom they used to use

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Speaker 2: for clan meetings, let's hear from some advertisers.

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Speaker 3: Ah, speaking of the nope, nope for ads. Ah, we're back.

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Speaker 3: What a what a time to be alive.

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Speaker 4: We are alive.

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Speaker 2: The trial started on June fourth, and it did not

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Speaker 2: go well. I've written about this at greater length in

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Speaker 2: my newsletter if you want some background on why the

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Speaker 2: case ended up with a special prosecutor. But basically, the

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Speaker 2: judge fell for a Nazi conspiracy theory and that's where

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Speaker 2: we ended up. So the case goes to try good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, I I have a problem with the system

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Speaker 2: in Virginia of these substitute judges. So we had to

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Speaker 2: bring in a substitute judge. And it's just retired guys.

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Speaker 2: So they take cases if they feel like it.

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Speaker 3: They don't, yeah, so they just add yeah, just ad

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Speaker 3: hoc judging. Sure, that seems good.

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Speaker 2: Hey, there's a retirement age for a reason like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know that you're keeping up with the case law. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: we had a substitute judge and a special prosecutor, so

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Speaker 2: the case goes to trial with an out of town prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: And because of how late in the game this motion

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Speaker 2: was granted. And there's the speedy trial clock, they had

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Speaker 2: a pretty limited amount of time to get up to

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Speaker 2: speed after being assigned the case to prepare for trial.

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Speaker 2: So they didn't know the case. They don't know the

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Speaker 2: local cops, they don't know the witnesses, they're not familiar

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Speaker 2: with the clerk of court here. Just like basic procedural stuff.

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Speaker 2: This is not their home turf, and they don't really

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Speaker 2: have any investment in this case. This isn't something that

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Speaker 2: they chose to charge. It's just assigned to them. And again,

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Speaker 2: this is the first time this law has ever been

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Speaker 2: put in front of a jury, So there's no playbook here, right.

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Speaker 2: They can't sort of look to how this usually goes

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Speaker 2: and just do that. The real problem, though, is something

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Speaker 2: that's not unique at all. A prosecutor is desperate for

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Speaker 2: a good victim. They want something that is clean and uncomplicated.

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Speaker 2: They want to be able to show the jury, a

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Speaker 2: little morality play with good guys and bad guys, and

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Speaker 2: no messy stuff. They don't want the story to have

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Speaker 2: any elements that could snag on a juror's ideas about

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Speaker 2: the world. So instead of telling a story about anti

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Speaker 2: fascists being attacked by fascists, which is what happened, they

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Speaker 2: shaped their case around testimony from a bystander.

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Speaker 3: Oh good, the most reliable kind of testimony. Yeah, now, I.

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Speaker 2: Remember I promised that boring stuff about the statutory requirement

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Speaker 2: of intent would pay off. Right, Well, I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor understood that well. And if I were to

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Speaker 2: tell you that something was making me feel intimidated, you know, generally,

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Speaker 2: sort of colloquially speaking, I'm saying I'm afraid. I'm being

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Speaker 2: made to feel timid. Is the root of the word, right,

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Speaker 2: I am uncomfortable. I am afraid, But it means something

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Speaker 2: really specific here. It doesn't just mean being afraid in

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Speaker 2: conjunction with that language about placing someone in reasonable fear

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Speaker 2: of bodily injury or death. We're not talking about feeling afraid.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about the legal idea of a true threat.

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Speaker 2: So a true threat is something that is not free speech.

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Speaker 2: It is conduct and expression that is no longer protected

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Speaker 2: by the First Amendment. And I'm not going to go

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Speaker 2: to bat here for the First Amendment. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to defend this sort of like libertarian idea that actually

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Speaker 2: it's good and healthy for a society that people can

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Speaker 2: march around playing Junior Stormtrooper. But you know, technically they

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Speaker 2: can right love it or hate it.

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Speaker 3: That's not what we're talking about it. It's the difference

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Speaker 3: between saying I think the government should round up and

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Speaker 3: kill this group of people, which is absolutely protected speech,

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Speaker 3: and saying I am going to murder you tonight in

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Speaker 3: your home at this address, which you theoretically can get

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Speaker 3: in trouble for, although a lot of times people don't.

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Speaker 2: You know, in my experience, people who see that to

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Speaker 2: me don't get in trouble. But I'm not sure that's. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's a legal thing.

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Speaker 3: It's mainly they get in trouble with they do that

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Speaker 3: to FBI agents, as that one Trump fan did after

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Speaker 3: Hunter Biden's conviction.

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Speaker 2: Or there's been a rash lately of people getting picked

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Speaker 2: up after they leave a voicemail at a congressional office.

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Speaker 4: Don't leave a threat in a voice.

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Speaker 3: Okay, don't don't that. Yeah, Wyatt, what are you? What

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Speaker 3: are you doing? How do you think this is going

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Speaker 3: to work out? People are cooked?

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Speaker 2: So a lot of people are learning lately what a

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Speaker 2: true threat is.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, up until that point, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of shit you could do that sucks. You can march

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Speaker 2: around and be a little Nazi with your pals, but

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Speaker 2: what you cannot do is engage in conduct that constitutes

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Speaker 2: a truth threat. And I think drawing that line in

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Speaker 2: a really clear way for the jury is what this

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Speaker 2: case should have been about.

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Speaker 4: I think they.

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Speaker 2: Needed to hold the jury's hand through that, you know,

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Speaker 2: and say, you know, the defense is making this a

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Speaker 2: free speech case. And if it had stopped here, if

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Speaker 2: it had stopped at this point, you know, show them

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Speaker 2: where it stopped, where it changed. But they didn't do that,

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Speaker 2: and they left that line really blurry because the problem

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Speaker 2: is the point at which that line was crossed was

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Speaker 2: when that march encircled the small group of counter protesters, right,

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Speaker 2: So they spent half an hour marching and then they

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Speaker 2: got to where they were going, and that's when it

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Speaker 2: crossed the line. You know, they lit their torches, they

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Speaker 2: marched they chanted. It was obviously intended to evoke Nazi Germany.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's same blood and soil. Jews will not

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Speaker 2: replace us. It's a real Hitler vibe. And a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who are on the fence about the prosecutions

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Speaker 2: are looking at that and saying, well, yeah, like that's disgusting,

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Speaker 2: But isn't that free speech?

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Speaker 4: And it is.

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Speaker 2: Most of that was right, So most of that conduct

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Speaker 2: was not against the law. You know, if you saw that,

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Speaker 2: you might feel afraid. People did, and that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: It was very alarming to see. It might make you

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Speaker 2: feel unsafe, and it could and definitely did eventually evolve

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Speaker 2: into a situation where people are unsafe, But seeing them

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Speaker 2: pass by doesn't actually put you in a position where

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Speaker 2: you might die. I mean, not right at the moment anyway. Right,

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Speaker 2: you know, the law doesn't really extend to the idea

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Speaker 2: that this is part of a larger societal shift that

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Speaker 2: ends violently. You know, this existential thread of the rise

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Speaker 2: of fascism doesn't constitute a true threat in the immediate

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Speaker 2: sense under the law. Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, A guy, a dude in a similar situation in

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Speaker 3: DC in twenty twenty stabbed a person and got off

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Speaker 3: because it was very clear that he like, when you

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Speaker 3: are surrounded.

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Speaker 2: That's true threat, right, that you are in imminent danger. Right.

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Speaker 4: And it wasn't just a person.

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Speaker 2: That was Jeremy I know, Yeah, that was Jeremy Bertino.

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Speaker 3: One of my favorite stabbings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a weird turn of events for Jeremy because

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Speaker 2: the month before he got stabbed it was oh gosh,

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Speaker 2: it was one of the other Proud Way rallies in DC.

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Speaker 2: I was surrounded by a group of proud boys that

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Speaker 2: he was come and so I was in that the

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Speaker 2: same position, and I was getting a little nervous because

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Speaker 2: they were starting to, you know, get in my face

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Speaker 2: and touch me and try and move me around. Jeremy

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Speaker 2: actually made them stop. You know, you know, you don't chivalry,

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Speaker 2: You don't got a hand it to Jeremy. But I

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Speaker 2: think he knew it would have been bad for them

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Speaker 2: if they stabbed me.

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Speaker 3: Little did he know, Yeah, he would be there, whereas

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Speaker 3: the guy who stabbed him was in block and such.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a strange, strange twist of history for Jeremy.

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Speaker 2: Now he states, witness m h anyway, where were we

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Speaker 2: we could cut some of that. I'm out of it. Today.

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Speaker 2: We're both in a bad way right now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think everyone's always in a bad way these days.

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Speaker 3: That's it's worth acknowledging. I can't sleep anymore. You're frazzled,

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Speaker 3: like welcome to twenty twenty four. It's fine. We're doing

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Speaker 3: as well as either a presidential candidate.

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Speaker 2: I had to wait until the recess in the city

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Speaker 2: council meeting yesterday to go outside and check on the

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Speaker 2: drive by on my block. Likes are going good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, things are things are solid.

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Speaker 4: Uh yeah, Should I just take that whole paragraph.

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Speaker 3: From the top, sure, yeah, started.

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Speaker 2: Because I don't even know where to re start.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't until the march encounter the counter protesters that

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Speaker 2: there was truly intentional intimidation that placed them in fear

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Speaker 2: of injury or death. The people who were trapped, and

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Speaker 2: I mean that literally, all avenues of escape were close

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Speaker 2: to them. The march formed a circle around them that

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Speaker 2: was ten men deep. Those were the victims of this crime.

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Speaker 2: They were beaten and punched and kicked and pepper sprayed.

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Speaker 2: It were shoved and hit with lit torches. They thought

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Speaker 2: they would die. But those people are complicated, aren't they right?

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Speaker 2: Those people were Antifa, they were activists, they were believers

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Speaker 2: in Black Lives Matter, they were communists, the anarchists, right,

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Speaker 2: queer people, trans people, people of color, people who attend

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Speaker 2: protests have attended more since there were people who hated Nazis.

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Speaker 2: There were people with skin in the game.

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Speaker 3: People whose existence is inherently politicized, and thus attempts to

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Speaker 3: destroy them can't just be seen as a human being

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Speaker 3: being assaulted. They have to be seen as like, well,

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Speaker 3: is the thing that they believe and my opinions on

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Speaker 3: it as a judge a mitigating factor.

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Speaker 2: Right. It's messy, it shouldn't be, but it is right.

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Speaker 2: These were people who believe that we have a duty

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Speaker 2: to each other to stand in the way of the

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Speaker 2: march of fascism, and that night, that's literally what they did.

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Speaker 2: And that's murky for a prosecutor. What if the jury

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Speaker 2: doesn't like that, What if maybe just a little bit

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Speaker 2: they deserved it? Right? Does the law really still protect

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Speaker 2: you if you make a choice a jury doesn't understand?

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Speaker 2: And so the prosecutor chose to rest this case on

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Speaker 2: the shoulders of a young woman whose front door the

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Speaker 2: march past that night on its way to the scene

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Speaker 2: of the crime. As a young Jewish woman alone in

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Speaker 2: her room that night, she was terrified to hear the

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Speaker 2: approaching Nazi march. She took off a necklace in a

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Speaker 2: ring bearing symbols of her faith and hid them before

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Speaker 2: she fled her home in fear. She was absolutely a

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Speaker 2: victim of white supremacist terror. But I do not think

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Speaker 2: she was a victim under the language of this statute.

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Speaker 2: And I want to be so clear about that, right.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying what happened to her was okay, or

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Speaker 2: that it's her fault that the case was presented this way.

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Speaker 2: She was subpoena, she gave the testimony she was required

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Speaker 2: by the law to give, and she gave it well.

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Speaker 2: And she's obviously deeply traumatized by this. And so when

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Speaker 2: I say she's not a victim of the crime, when

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Speaker 2: I say that, you know, the fear that she felt

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Speaker 2: does not meet this legal standard, I don't mean anything

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Speaker 2: other than that there are far more ways to harm

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Speaker 2: a person and a community than have been contemplated by

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Speaker 2: our part time General Assembly. But under this statute, being frightened,

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Speaker 2: however reasonable, that is, however serious, does she felt that

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Speaker 2: fear is not the same as being placed in reasonable

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Speaker 2: fear of death or bodily injury. I think her testimony

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Speaker 2: could have been really valuable as a supplement to this

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Speaker 2: overall presentation because she was very emotional. I think it

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Speaker 2: was very moving for the jury, but it didn't move

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Speaker 2: the needle legally, and I think it was a really

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00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,639
Speaker 2: perilous foundation on which to try to construct a case.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it would not be a perilous course

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Speaker 2: of action for you to take Robert Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 3: So it would be perilous if I didn't get this

374
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,800
Speaker 3: ad break in because Sophie has a taser now, So

375
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Speaker 3: let's just let's just move right along.

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Speaker 4: Does it ever stop feeling dirty to do that?

377
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Speaker 3: No?

378
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Speaker 2: No?

379
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Speaker 3: I mean, you know what doesn't feel dirty these days, Mollie.

380
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,440
Speaker 3: What feels clean probably buying. I pay so much in

381
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 3: taxes and that always feels dirty. Like I know where

382
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 3: they're going. I see the celebrities signing the bombs they

383
00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 3: helped pay. I don't feel good about anything. We're back,

384
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 3: and you know, here's a free ad, Molly. I found

385
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,280
Speaker 3: out where I can buy the really good mace. I

386
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 3: learned about this mace the right way to learn about mace,

387
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 3: which is I had it used on me and was like, Wow,

388
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 3: that mace was much more debilitating than normal mace.

389
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,439
Speaker 4: You've got a free sample, cops.

390
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got a free sample from two different federal

391
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 3: agencies and it knocked me at a commission for about

392
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 3: a half hour each time, which is pretty good for mace.

393
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,360
Speaker 3: It's called silver bullet and it's a like a ten

394
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,800
Speaker 3: percent OC two percent cs. I maybe mixing those up mix,

395
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,959
Speaker 3: but you're not supposed to be able to buy it

396
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 3: if you're not law enforcement. But it's not illegal. So

397
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 3: I finally just found a website that doesn't doesn't check,

398
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 3: and now I've got the good mace. I don't really

399
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 3: know what to do with it.

400
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 2: But does it actually have silver in it? Will it

401
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:53,920
Speaker 2: also kill germs?

402
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 3: No? No, no, I have to use my anti microbial

403
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,719
Speaker 3: silver wound dressings for that, but I do have some

404
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 3: of those. Jesus Christ always useful to have, Molly important stuff.

405
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you got yourself a little treat.

406
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 4: I think that's important these days.

407
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 3: A little treat, Yeah, sort of.

408
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 2: One of my guiding principles in this increasingly awful world

409
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 2: is if you can get a little treat.

410
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 4: You should get a little treat.

411
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of my guiding principles is like, whenever I

412
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,919
Speaker 3: decide I'm depressed and I'm going to like do retail therapy,

413
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,399
Speaker 3: just just pick a pick up a new kind of weapon,

414
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 3: a kind of weapon I don't have already. I got

415
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,639
Speaker 3: a rungu the other day, which is a kind of

416
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 3: stick that you beat people with. You know, I'm making

417
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 3: sure that I'm like diversified my portfolio.

418
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 2: I was thinking more like sometimes at Kroger they have

419
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 2: a new flavor of chips. But your thing's cool too.

420
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,679
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. It's good. It's good. Chips can be a

421
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 3: weapon anyway. But let's move back to the subject.

422
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: Back to the courthouse. Right, the defense in this case

423
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,119
Speaker 2: was right about one thing. I mean, they didn't say

424
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,919
Speaker 2: very much. They didn't actually put on a case. They

425
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: put on no evidence and no witnesses. But he spoke

426
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Speaker 2: a few times, right, the attorney. He spoke a few times,

427
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: And in his closing defense attorney Peter Fraser said he

428
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 2: didn't have to put on a case because the prosecutor

429
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 2: made his case for him. The counter protesters could not

430
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Speaker 2: be intimidated. Now that means what he said, right, the

431
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 2: counter protesters in this case, they couldn't be intimidated because

432
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Speaker 2: they opted into this. The protesters brought this on themselves.

433
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 2: Their mere presence in this public space expressing their right

434
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 2: to protest was a waiver of their right to safety,

435
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 2: and they consented to whatever happened after that, and they

436
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: couldn't be victims of anything. Right, They wanted this. They

437
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 2: chose to be there, they knew the Nazis were coming.

438
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 2: And the prosecutor's failure to rebut this, to actively push

439
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 2: back against the idea that entering this space with some

440
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 2: sort of agreement to mutual combat right, that the failure

441
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 2: to push back on that at all can only be

442
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: seen an agreement they allowed. The court and the defense

443
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 2: and the judge himself said, well, no one was hurt,

444
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 2: and they failed to call witnesses who were hurt because

445
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: people were hurt.

446
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that seems like a massive, like disqualifying oversight.

447
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 4: They you know, they could have find sometimes.

448
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,360
Speaker 3: Especially with anarchists defendants, that could be hard to get

449
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 3: people who are willing to testify that I imagine you

450
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: can find some people in this case.

451
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 4: Right.

452
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: So the thing is is I acknowledge that there are

453
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: many of the victims and many of the witnesses who

454
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: have chosen not to participate in this process.

455
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 4: Right.

456
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 2: First of all, I'm not saying it would be good

457
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 2: if this happened, but technically you can subpoena them anyway.

458
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: Right.

459
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 2: There are people in this case who would have cooperated

460
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: had they been called. People like Alan Groves, who in

461
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen was a dean at UVA who was burned

462
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 2: by the flames, or UVA librarian Tyler McGill, who suffered

463
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 2: a catastrophic stroke after being struck in the neck by

464
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 2: a torch.

465
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 3: Folks Free advice There.

466
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: Prosecutors they subpoened, but did not call my own friend God,

467
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: one of the counter protesters there that night, whose testimony

468
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 2: about being pepper sprayed put Christopher Cantwell in jail. They

469
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,959
Speaker 2: did not call Devin Willis or Natalie Romero, who were

470
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 2: plaintiffs in the civil lawsuit and have already proven their

471
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: ability to testify with incredible courage and clarity about being

472
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 2: kicked and punched as they were trapped by the wall

473
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: of flames. In the civil trial, Devon recalled the moment

474
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 2: he realized he had been doused in lighter fluid. He

475
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: thought that they were going to burn him alive. He

476
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 2: was nineteen years old, and he testified that all he

477
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,719
Speaker 2: could think about was that he had so much to

478
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 2: live for and he had to find a way out.

479
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: And Natalie, she testified about being trapped, about how small

480
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 2: she felt at the center of the screaming mob, and

481
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: that she thought she would be burned to death as

482
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 2: she covered her face and her head from the rain

483
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 2: of fists, and she described that she didn't really understand

484
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: the effects of pepper spray. She was a college student.

485
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: She'd never been pepper sprayed before. When she got home

486
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: that night, she sat down on her shower to cry,

487
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: just trying to process the experience of nearly being killed

488
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: by a crowd of Nazis, and the hot steam reactivated

489
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 2: the chemical irritants, burning her eyes and skin all over again.

490
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,679
Speaker 2: They didn't call the people who were hurt, and they

491
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 2: let the jury think that there were none and the

492
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: only actual witnessed No, you go ahead.

493
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: That's just I just such a dereliction of duty, Like

494
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 3: it's such a frustrating like it's not hard, like this

495
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 3: is not secret information that you're privy to because of

496
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: your deep Antifa connections. You can just like google this.

497
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 3: This is like thirty minutes of reading to have a

498
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 3: couple of those names.

499
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: At least the federal court transcripts of this testimony exist,

500
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: they're free.

501
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 4: I already paid for them.

502
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: You know. And at one point when the judge said,

503
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: I mean, this was out side the presence of the

504
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 2: jury when the judge said it. But the judge said, well,

505
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: you don't at no one was hurt. And I'm sitting

506
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: in the courtroom next to someone who was hurt, right,

507
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, I embarrassed to be in this

508
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: room with these people who are behaving this way.

509
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: You know.

510
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: The only actual witness to and victim of this crime

511
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 2: that they put on the stand at all was Emily Gresenski,

512
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: and this was not her first time on the witness

513
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: stand in that courtroom. She also testified against Christopher can't

514
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: well for pepper spraying her that night, and she handled

515
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 2: it well, she's testified before. She's good at it, yes, unshakable.

516
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: But a witness can only answer the questions they're asked.

517
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: A witness can't put on their own evidence. A witness

518
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 2: can't tell you a story. A witness can't do anything

519
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: other than give short answers to questions. Right, So even

520
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 2: the best witness is only as good as the questions

521
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: they're asked. And they failed to elicit from her the

522
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 2: most important part of the story, what actually happened at

523
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: the statue. So a lot of the evidence they put

524
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 2: on with her on this because I don't want to

525
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: get too law in order about this, right, But you

526
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: can't just put on evidence, right, you have to have

527
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: a witness on the stand to testify to it. You

528
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: can't just show stuff.

529
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 3: It's not a conversation. Like somebody can't just like raise

530
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 3: their hand in the middle of this and be like,

531
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 3: well I got actually I actually did get hurt at

532
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 3: that thing. Like, That's not the way court cases were.

533
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: And so they used much of Emily's time on the

534
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: stand to show two videos. One was a video she shot,

535
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: so it makes sense to have her testify to this

536
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 2: video that she recorded, right. So she was live streaming

537
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 2: from the very beginning right down where they were preparing

538
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: and lighting the torches, and then she was following them

539
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: along on the march, just sort of documenting what was occurring.

540
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 4: And that's what she thought.

541
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: She was there to do, right, She's just documenting that

542
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: this march is taking place. She's thinking, Oh, they're going

543
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: to give some speeches. I'll record the speeches so people

544
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: can sort of see what this event was about. She

545
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: did not go there intending to become trapped and assaulted, right,

546
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: So much of her time on the stand was sort

547
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: of answering questions about this video as it played, But

548
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 2: they also had her answer questions about a video that

549
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: was recorded from inside the march, and I'm I'm not

550
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: sure how effective it was to just show thirty minutes

551
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: of video of guys walking, and the defense leaned really

552
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: heavily into the idea that, well, obviously she wasn't scared.

553
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: Look at her, right, So she's clearly not intimidated. She's

554
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: really close to this march, recording it. And without a

555
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 2: concrete theory of the case that establishes that, well, no,

556
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: this isn't where the crime is happening, right these guys

557
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: walking isn't the crime. She's not intimidated yet, that's that's

558
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: not happening right now. So without that sort of concrete

559
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: explanation for the jury that the crime occurs at the end,

560
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 2: they might take away from that that will, Oh, yeah,

561
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: she doesn't really seem scared here, right, that this whole

562
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: part where she's walking and narrating, she doesn't really seem scared.

563
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: And leaving aside the finer philosophical point that you can

564
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: be brave even if you're scared, her testimony was really

565
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: clear here she wasn't afraid for her life. Then she

566
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: testified that she arrived at the plaza where the statue

567
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: stands before the marchers did. Right, So they are marching

568
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: through UVA grounds and it ends in this sort of

569
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: plaza out in front of the rotunda where a statue is,

570
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 2: and she got there before the march did, and she

571
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: saw that the group of counterprotesters was very small, and

572
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 2: she knew what was coming, right. She watched these guys

573
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: get ready. She watched them put on their helmets and

574
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: their weighted gloves and their brass knuckles and lighting their torches,

575
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: and you know, guys are wrapping their hands like they're

576
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 2: getting ready for an mma fight. So she knows what's

577
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: coming and they don't. And so she looks at this

578
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: small group of young people and she's afraid for them.

579
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: She's afraid for their safety. She feels a duty to

580
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: these people, they're mostly college students, and because you can

581
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: be brave even if you are scared, she stayed with them,

582
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: and once they were surrounded by this increasingly violent mob,

583
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: once she was live streaming her own assault. Of course

584
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: she was in fear of bodily harm. She was being harmed, right,

585
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: There's not a debate about whether someone might be in

586
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: fear of bodily harm. You're watching them get harmed.

587
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you aren't scared of that, then it

588
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: doesn't like that. That's I guess kind of the problem.

589
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: It should be like, would an average like a normal

590
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 3: person consider this to be an objectively threatening situation?

591
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 4: And that is the standard.

592
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not a crime that actually requires a

593
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: complaining victim to say I did feel this way. It's

594
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: a really it's what's called a reasonable person standard. Right,

595
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: So what a reasonable person in this situation feel this way?

596
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: The answer is yes, okay, right, the reasonable person would

597
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: be afraid, afraid of getting hit in the face.

598
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I would say so.

599
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: And there was a lot of argument pre trial in

600
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: this case and some of the others that like, well,

601
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: you know, what does that even mean? What does it

602
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: mean for a reasonable person to be afraid. I mean,

603
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: that is a valid philosophical conversation, but it is not

604
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: a valid rebuttal to the idea of this charge because

605
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: that is the standard for many of the of the

606
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: statutes in our code. Right that like, it's the legal

607
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: standard for assault.

608
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 3: Right.

609
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: But again, much of the time she's on the stand,

610
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: they're just showing thirty minutes of people walking, and there

611
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 2: was so little time spent showing what happened when they

612
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: got there. They could have shown the jury the moment

613
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: of the video where at the top of the steps

614
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: to the rotunda, right, So they're at the top of

615
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: these stairs looking down at that plaza below, and these

616
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: counter protesters are just coming into view to the for

617
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: the first time for the marchers, and Daniel Borden looks

618
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: down and sees them and yells, you're outnumbered, Antifa, watch

619
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: out leftist scum. And now it matters that that's Daniel Borton,

620
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: because Daniel Borden.

621
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: Was with Jacob Dix. They came together.

622
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're friends from back home in Ohio. Daniel bordon

623
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 2: is a name you might remember because the following day

624
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: he nearly beat a young black man to death. So

625
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: you know, he's looking down into the plaza and seeing

626
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: these people and stating the intent. Right, He's saying, like,

627
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: you know, watch out, Like I see you. There's more

628
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: of us than there are of you. You better watch out.

629
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: That is intimidation, right, Yeah, seems like it.

630
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 3: If I'm the judge, the case has been made.

631
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 4: But they did not.

632
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: I'm not though they didn't highlight this portion of the video.

633
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: They just this long, uninterrupted presentation of video evidence without

634
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: any sort of discussion of what any of these moments meant.

635
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: Because moments after that, after Daniel Borden yells you're outnumbered Antifa,

636
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: he shouldered a shoulder with Dix. A few seconds later,

637
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: they're walking clockwise around the statue. They're starting to form

638
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: that circle, that ring that would trap the counter protesters in.

639
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: Borden looks at Dix again and says, why can't we

640
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: confront them? And then they continue to walk side by side,

641
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 2: taking their place in that ring of men, closing off

642
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: any path to safety. And you can see in photos

643
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: that Jacob Dix is face to face with some of

644
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: the counter protesters. He's not just in this sort of

645
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: mob of people, in this sort of nebulous zone he's

646
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: in the inner ring of people who are choosing to

647
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: physically trap the counter protesters. That is the intent that

648
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: they needed to show the jury, and they didn't rebut

649
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: the conjecture that he was only here because he loves

650
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: Confederate statues, right, he has Confederate heritage, he cares about

651
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: the monuments.

652
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like prosecuting a drunk driver and having

653
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: having a breathalyzer test and just not introducing it into evidence,

654
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: being like, nah, I'm just going to be like, you know,

655
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 3: vibes wise, it seems like he was probably drinking. Yeah,

656
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 3: that's what it was. It was so irresponsible.

657
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: The vibes were bad, and they were the vibes were bad,

658
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: but that's not the legal standard.

659
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 3: Vibes are terrible, but that's not what you should be.

660
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: You have a much better case to make based on

661
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 3: the evidence easily available to you.

662
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: If there was if none of this evidence existed, if

663
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 2: this was all they had, maybe don't take it a trial.

664
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: But this evidence was right there for them. The moment,

665
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: the moment where they're looking down the steps that's in

666
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: the video they played.

667
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: I feel like there were at least six different people

668
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 3: the prosecutor could have just like emailed and they would

669
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: have basically put together the whole case for this person.

670
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: It's just so available, right, you know. So the defense says, well,

671
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: you know he has Confederate heritage, you see here because

672
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: of the statues. They could have rebutted that by showing

673
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: the jury his discord posts where he was helping organize

674
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: housing for at least eighty other Unite the Right attendees

675
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: at a group of airbnbs which he called the Eagles

676
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 2: Nest and from which he was helping organize rides to

677
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: the rally in what they were calling Nazi uber. That's

678
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: not about your Confederate heritage, is it. The Eagles Nest

679
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: was like Hitler's vacation house for people who aren't up

680
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: on their their Hitler lore.

681
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, their hit lower if you will, their hit lore.

682
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I'm not proud of it. But that happened.

683
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: That took me out for a second, And they didn't

684
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: show him attending the Nazi rally in Pikeville in April

685
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: of that same year. There's a photograph of him standing

686
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: shoulder to shoulder with members of the Traditionalist Worker Party.

687
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 2: Right arm extended a forty five degree angle, palm down.

688
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: I think that says something about why he was there, right,

689
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: and they didn't show his discord post about how he

690
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 2: was getting really hyped about the rally, writing nothing can

691
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: replace the feeling you get at a white nationalist rally.

692
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: I don't know the evidence exists, right, and once you

693
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 2: get to the base of the statue, that intimidation element

694
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: required for the charge is clear. We know people were

695
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: in reasonable fear of bodily harm because their bodies were harmed.

696
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: The evidence of intent is not hard to fight. The

697
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: marchers saw the small group of counter protesters as they

698
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: descended those stairs. They saw them from above, and they

699
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: chose to proceed and surround them, knowing they vastly outnumbered them.

700
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: They hooted and cheered, screaming We're coming for you. As

701
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: they encircled the statue. There were assigned marshals for the march,

702
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: directing people in a clockwise fashion around the statue to

703
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: form the circle. This was not an organic event, and

704
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: as the ring closed, Richard Spencer's bodyguard, a now former Woburn,

705
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: Massachusetts police officer, John Donnelly, can be heard in one

706
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: video saying that we need to fill in over here

707
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 2: to block these guys off. This was an intentional act.

708
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: The defendant himself is visible in these videos as he

709
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: moves down the steps across the plaza and winds his

710
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: way around the statue, and as the fighting breaks out,

711
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: he holds his position in the inner ring of torch

712
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: bearers who have these people trapped unable to escape the violence.

713
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter that he did not commit these acts

714
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 2: of violence. He was holding the line that trapped people

715
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: inside of it, and his intent in that moment is inescapable.

716
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: But the jury doesn't know that. It's just an incredible failure.

717
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 3: Honestly, Yeah, yeah, I'm glad the case got thrown out.

718
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: Is it possible that the next person to be prosecutor

719
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 3: in this will have an IQ that rises above room temperature?

720
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: So I asked several lawyers about some of the finer

721
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 2: points of what happens with a mistrial, and I got

722
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: different answers from all of them, because this is sort

723
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: of like everything in this case is just a little

724
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: bit fucked up. Right. We have a substitute judge, we

725
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: have a special prosecutor, we have a mistrial, We have

726
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 2: just like so many things that kind of mess it

727
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: up a little bit. In the event of a mistrial,

728
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: the prosecutor has the option to try the case again, right,

729
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: that's always the case. There's a mistrial, the prosecutor can say, eh,

730
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 2: I'm gonna let it go. I'm just gonna let it go.

731
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,959
Speaker 2: Or they can say no, we're gonna bring it again.

732
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: We're gonna bring it again, and they don't have to

733
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 2: bring it the same way. They can bring in different evidence,

734
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 2: different witnesses. It's sort of a mulligan for everybody.

735
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 4: Right. What's not one hundred percent clear is.

736
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: Whether the same special prosecutor tries it again or if

737
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 2: it sort of goes back to Roulette. Several lawyers agreed

738
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: that it would be the same prosecutor. I believe her

739
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: office is under that impression. So right after the mistrial

740
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 2: was declared, Shannon Taylor, the special prosecutor, said she does

741
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: plan to try it again. That could just be bravado.

742
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: It's unclear. There's a hearing date set for August for

743
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: there's still some pending motions in the case, and so

744
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 2: the funniest part is that there's still a pending motion

745
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: to dismiss from the defense. So technically, even if the

746
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: prosecutor says yes, I'm bringing this case again. I'm doing it.

747
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: The judge can be like, actually, I'm dismissing it. So

748
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: it could go a lot of ways right now, But

749
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: at this point I'm not super hung up on the

750
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: particularities of this defendant, right. I think this mistrial teaches

751
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: us something sort of more generally about these cases and

752
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 2: the other torch cases specifically, obviously, but I think more generally,

753
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: what does it look like for criminal charges to be

754
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 2: a roadblock in the path of people involved in white

755
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 2: supremacists organizing. You know, at the end of the day,

756
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: whether or not some guy from Ohio serves four months

757
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: of a six month sentence on a CLASSICX felony, it

758
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter, right, Like, this isn't this isn't an important.

759
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's whether or not anyone is actually scared off

760
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 3: from organizing.

761
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: Right, Like not to use the language of the prosecutor,

762
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: you know, the Master's house, the master's tools, this, that,

763
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: and the other.

764
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 3: But part of part of cott into that logic, right,

765
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: be honest.

766
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: I mean he used those tools for a reason, right,

767
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: But yeah.

768
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 3: I mean he used those tools for a reason. Like

769
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: if you couldn't bring down the Master's house with the

770
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 3: master's tools. Then what were all of those formerly Czarist

771
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 3: troops doing overthrowing the government with rights the Czar gave them?

772
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 2: You know, you know, part of what prosecutors talk about

773
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: when they talk about charging, maybe not these cases in particular,

774
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: but just generally speaking, is that bringing cases is intended

775
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: as a form of deterrence for everybody. Right, that what

776
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: happens to this guy is not the most important. But

777
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: maybe some other guys see this and think maybe that's

778
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: not a good idea. And so I think in some

779
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: of these cases, though, you can see, you know, maybe

780
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: that this charge is interrupting a more significant pattern of behavior. Right,

781
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: So nailing Thomas Rousseau on a felony would obviously change

782
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: the trajectory for Patriot Front. I don't know if that

783
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: would I don't know what that looks like at the end,

784
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: but it certainly changes the trajectory. So Thomas Rousseau is

785
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: set for trial in the fall. So he has been charged,

786
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: and I think that will be an interesting case to

787
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 2: follow because he has the same lawyer. And you know,

788
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 2: if they end up charging Jason Kessler, that would just

789
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: be really funny. You know, there's a lot of possible

790
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,959
Speaker 2: outcomes here. If they'd arrested these guys in real time

791
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: that night, maybe the rally the next day would be different.

792
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: If the cases had been brought six years ago, you know,

793
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: maybe certain arcs of history would have bent differently. It

794
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 2: would have broken some momentum, or discouraged some movement activity,

795
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 2: or broken bonds between people who met there. Some of

796
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: the guys who were there and could have been charged

797
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: in real time went on to do some real damage

798
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 2: in their personal lives and their communities. But I'm not

799
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 2: sure that's a basket I want to put my eggs into. Right,

800
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 2: if a court case takes a fascist out of the game, right, right,

801
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: that's some kind of harm reduction, But it's not something

802
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 2: you could count on, and honestly, it doesn't consistently reduce

803
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 2: harm in the long run. You just can't get lost

804
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 2: in the sort of what ifs of you know, what

805
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 2: if the system worked better to actually help us, because

806
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: it doesn't. That was never on the table. It's not

807
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 2: like I'm saying, you know, well, we needed a conviction

808
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: in this case because the courts are the ones who

809
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: are going to protect us by putting this man in jail. Briefly, right,

810
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: that's that's not the case. I think the lessons are

811
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: immediately instructive to the prosecutor who tries the next one. Obviously,

812
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: you know, watching the game tapes play better next time.

813
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 2: You know, if they're going to put these cases on,

814
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 2: they need to do it properly. I would rather see

815
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: this not happen at all than watch it get fumbled

816
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 2: like this, because that's just a victory for them.

817
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, And.

818
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: It's a sharp reminder that the courts are not equipped

819
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: to interrupt fascism or rein in white supremacy. That's not

820
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: what they were built for. That, it's not what this

821
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: tool does. You are trying to screw it in with

822
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: a hammer, because faced with a really clear opportunity to

823
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 2: do that, the prosecutor shied away from them. You know,

824
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: the state is not the secret weapon that is going

825
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: to stop fascism for us or protect us from the

826
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: fascists who want to stop us from stopping them. You know,

827
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 2: at best, it is a banana peel on their Mario

828
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: Kart track. You know, it is interesting to watch this

829
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: play out, but I don't think it is some I

830
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 2: don't think this will bring any sort of repair. Yeah,

831
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 2: but it might ruin some guy's day, and I'll be

832
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: there when it happens.

833
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think it's worthless obviously. I think

834
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 3: in fact, one of the things I will point out,

835
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: since this is kind of ending on a doomer, and

836
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: I think the I think the legal onslaught that was

837
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 3: launched by the survivors, shall we say mm hm at

838
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 3: Charlottesville against organizers and whatnot is a big part of

839
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: why a lot of that most of that crew stopped

840
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 3: being relevant, like it did in fact damage them. Now

841
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: did it disrupt and stop fascism Nation? Why? Of course not.

842
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 3: That was never in the cards, right, Like you're talking

843
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 3: about trends and forces that are too big for a

844
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 3: handful of very dedicated leftists to stop by suing some asshole.

845
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: But like, you know, one thing people get wrong a

846
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 3: lot is saying like, oh, you know, when a fucking

847
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 3: what's his name got punched, that really knocked him out

848
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: of public life, and it's like, no, Charlottesville came after

849
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 3: that fucker got punched, Like it was the series of

850
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 3: court cases that ruined his life really to an extent.

851
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: And I think there's an important conversation to be how

852
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: about what it means to win, Right, Because if you're

853
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: a lawyer, if you're a prosecutor, winning is really black

854
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: and white. You know, win a judgment, you win a conviction.

855
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: But that's not how I view the courts as a

856
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: tool in this process. Right That, like winning a conviction

857
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: or actually getting paid out that judgment, that's not the

858
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 2: victory we're looking for. Right That, this is a tool

859
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 2: for sort of chiseling away, and no single step gets

860
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,479
Speaker 2: you there. So I wouldn't say that these cases are

861
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: not useful or they're not interesting. And that's why that

862
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: this isn't a huge disappointment, right that, Like what happens

863
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 2: to any of these individual people isn't the point.

864
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 4: This is just part of a process.

865
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I don't know, keep that in mind as

866
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 3: you look at this stuff, like, because it's very easy

867
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: to look at one case and just be like, oh,

868
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 3: it's doomed. There's no point in trying any of this.

869
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 3: It's like, no, the actual the law fair that people

870
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 3: have launched in response to Charlottsville has been a successful action, Like,

871
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 3: if you want to look at it kind of in

872
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 3: military terms, it has been an offensive that has broadly

873
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 3: achieved a number of its goals.

874
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: The Signs Becassler lawsuit against the Unit the Right organizers.

875
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: It's sort of established this playbook that's now being used

876
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 2: by others. There are similar similarly structured lawsuits now being

877
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: filed against other white supremacist groups, against White Lives Matter Ohio,

878
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: against Patriot Front. And it is effective, and again not

879
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: in the sense that the lawsuits will extract money. Judgments

880
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: well that.

881
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 3: Everyone's going to go to fucking prison, but it makes

882
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 3: their lives miserable.

883
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

884
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 3: I just don't want people to walk away being like, well,

885
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 3: there's no point in fighting this way, because there actually is.

886
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 3: It works very well. It's just not a silver bullet.

887
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 4: It's not a sports ugly.

888
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 3: And messy and hard. And I will end at least

889
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: by saying, you know, I know we have a lot

890
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 3: of anti electoralist type people here. The one place you

891
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: absolutely should vote, if that is a thing where you live,

892
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 3: is elections for local judges, because that is a great

893
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 3: way to at least reduce the odds that you're friends

894
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 3: go to prison. I know people I have people I

895
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 3: love who are not in prison because the judge they

896
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: happened to draw wasn't a piece of shit, and you're

897
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 3: really just hurting yourself if you don't, if you have

898
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 3: the option to pick a judge who sucks less, and

899
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 3: you don't try to. That's that's where I land on

900
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 3: that shit.

901
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: There's a lot that we can do, and none of

902
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: it's going to do it all. But Yep, in the meantime,

903
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: I will continue spending whole days on that horrible wooden

904
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: bench and I'll let you know how it goes.

905
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 3: Yep. Thank you Molly for continuing to engage with a

906
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 3: system that is not very fun to engage with. Necessary too, well, everybody.

907
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 3: That's the episode. Good to hell, We love you.

908
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

909
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

910
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

911
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

912
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen your updated

913
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.