1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Saturday. Ridiculous Historians. Uh, we you know. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Let's say there's Max, I'm Ben, this is Nol. 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 2: Let's let's talk with you, Nol Tool, You're Nol, You're 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: the this, I'm the Ben. You're the nom. I'm Nol. No, 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: you're Max. We're not secret agents, guys. We don't have 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 2: to have like weird nicknames or like, you know, alternate identities. 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: Unlike Roald Dall, who was not only a cracker jack 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: children's writer with some potentially problematic material that didn't age 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: super well. But it is what it is, and I 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 2: don't think it should be edited. I'm gonna die on 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 2: that hill. We're gonna, well, don't die in the hill. 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: I need you for the shows. Okay, I'll stick around, 13 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 2: but you no, seriously, dude. It turns out that Roll 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 2: Dall was friends with Ian Fleming, who may or may 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: not have gotten the idea for the character of James 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: Bond from Double O seven from Roll Dall, who was 17 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: like an insane ace fighter pilot World War two era spy. 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: This guy did some bonker stuff and I just I 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: love this episode. Now. This was like such a eye 20 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: opener for me for like a beloved childhood you know, 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: favorite author of mine. I was like, whoa, this guy 22 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: was serious. He definitely murdered some folks. It's weird. I 23 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: don't know. 24 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: I am pretty confident we don't get to it in 25 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: this classic episode, but I did, I tell you no. 26 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: I study rolled all twice in very different circumstances. First, 27 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: I study, I study in literature when I was pursuing that, 28 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: and then also he comes up a lot in international 29 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: affairs because it was kind of stuff. 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, in this kind of stuff. 31 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: Did you guys see the most recent derivation of his 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was it Wonka? 33 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: They just call it Wonka? Yeah, I mean, I don't 34 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: think it's based on anything that he actually wrote. It's 35 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: just sort of an extended Wonka universe. But I thought 36 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: it was delightful because it's by the people that made 37 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: Paddington and Paddington Two, which are damn near perfect movies too, 38 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: even better than one. If you haven't seen it, do 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 2: yourself a favor. But there are some really sweet moments 40 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 2: in Wonka, and I think Timothy Shalamalar did a fine job. 41 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: Is that the correct pronunciation? 42 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: You heard? 43 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: Little? So you guys want to hear something funny? No always, okay, 44 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: is my birthday my birth My birthday has already happened. 45 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: Your birthday's already happened. Happy birthday. Oh my gosh. 46 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: Everybody has to get Max something for his birthday. We 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: already got him a Lionel train set. Uh spoilers, So 48 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: tune in, folks, as Noel and Max and I explore 49 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: the amazing story of Rule Dohl, Children's author and secret agent. Indeed, 50 00:02:54,520 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. George didn't say 51 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: a word. He felt quite trimbly. He knew something tremendous 52 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: had taken place that morning. For a few brief moments 53 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: he had touched with the very tips of his fingers 54 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: the edge of a magic world. That's from George's Marvelous 55 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: Medicine by the author Roald Doll. Hi, my name is Ben, my. 56 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: Name is Nol And what a weaver of dreams that 57 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: Roald Dall was. 58 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: Yes, if you are like millions of children in the 59 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: United States, the UK and beyond, then you grew up 60 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: reading books by Roald Dahl, stuff like not just George's 61 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: Marvelous Medicine, but Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. 62 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, George is a deep cut for me. I've never 63 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: read that. One. My favorites growing up were Matilda The 64 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: Chocolate Factory books, including the Great Glass Elevator, which people 65 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: kind of seem to forget about. They go, they go 66 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: up into space and there's their space aliens and stuff. 67 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: The Witches was super creepy and and the movie got 68 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: The Witch's movie really freaked me out. It's fantastic. They 69 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: pull their faces off and so they all have wigs 70 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: and it's a mouse. No, it's fun. It's fun movie, 71 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: but definitely back when they made movies for kids that 72 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: gave kids nightmares. Yeah. Yeah. 73 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: And in the course of research for today's episode, one 74 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: of the things I discovered is that there's this danger 75 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: in young adult fiction without all of the trappings of 76 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: banality you find in so much grown up adult, full 77 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: adult fiction, you know, and we see stuff that's so 78 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: much more honest, visceral and candidly frightening. Roald Dahl wrote 79 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: some pretty dark stuff, and it's easy I think for 80 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: maybe someone who just saw the newest adaptation of Charlie 81 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: and the Chocolate Factory, right, I think it's easy for 82 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: them to say, oh, this is just sort of kooky, 83 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: but as most of us know, the original one is frightening, especially. 84 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: There's no earthly way of knowing. In fact, Marilyn Manson 85 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: sort of did a redo of that on one of 86 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: his early records, showing how it kind of really worked 87 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: on that absurdly creepy, dark level. But yeah, Dall, I 88 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: kind of look at him as almost like a Dickens 89 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: type figure in terms of the characters and the absurdity 90 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 2: and some of the satire that he did. But it 91 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: was in fact for kids. And today we have, you know, 92 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: this genre of young adult fiction that tries to be 93 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: a little bit more dark and edgy. But these books 94 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: were written for children. 95 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, this isn't stuff like you know. Edward Gorey, 96 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: for instance, has a child's book formats, but is pretty 97 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: much clearly for adults. Roal Dall was writing for children, 98 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: but he was doing much much more than that. And 99 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: the true life story of Roald Dall is as interesting 100 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: and strange, if not more interesting and strange, than some 101 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: of the fictional stories he wrote, because it turned out 102 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: that he lived during one of the most important, dangerous, magnificent, 103 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: storied times in modern history. 104 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely right in the thick of World War Two, and 105 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: Dahl himself even described the mission of Churchill and the 106 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 2: British government and the Royal Air Force which he was 107 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: a part of, as saving the world. I mean, he 108 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 2: really looked at it that way, and that's not too 109 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: far from the truth. And at the time, the United 110 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: States was not about that war. We were in a 111 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: very isolationist period. Guys like Charles Lindbergh really pushed for 112 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: this America First ideology. MW does that sound familiar, But yeah, 113 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: it was a big deal to get the United States 114 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: on board the war effort to help fight the Nazis 115 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: in what Doll himself described as a battle against like 116 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: good and evil in the life or death situation that 117 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: could literally result in the end of the world as 118 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: it was known at that time. 119 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: And so in today's episode, we're exploring one of the 120 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: most fascinating things about Rule Doll that you might not know, 121 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: which is that he was not just a fight race. 122 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: He was not just a military man. He was not 123 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: just a fantastically prolific children's author. 124 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: He was a spy. Not only a spy like a superspy, 125 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: like the spy totally. 126 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: Yes, So let's give just a little bit of his 127 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: background to get to the juicy once top secret stuff. 128 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, shout out to our super 129 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: producer for today, Ramsey Yunt. Thanks for coming, Ramsey. 130 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: Yeah much appreciate it, saving the day, saving the day, 131 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: saving the show. So Casey is out with the flu 132 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: and we wish him a quick convalescence. Yes, yes, so. 133 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: Please feel free to write to Ramsey and Casey as 134 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: well as us if you would like. 135 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: Roll Doll though, roll Dall, here's the thing. 136 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: Born in September of nineteen sixteen and he lived until 137 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety so he. 138 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: Had a full life. 139 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: And he's one of those guys know that when I 140 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: read the biography or something, I feel like I just 141 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: haven't done anything. I'm like, what a jerk, I know, right, 142 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: It's like, hey, I read, I read a lot of books, 143 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: I guess, but I haven't helped engineer clandestine geopolitics, right, 144 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: I haven't shot people out of the sky yet. 145 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 2: So. 146 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: Rould was born in Wales of Norwegian extract. His parents 147 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: were both from Norway, and he was named after the 148 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: Norwegian explorer that we've mentioned in previous episodes here Roald Amundson, 149 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: So that's roa Ld. Actually his first language was Norwegian, 150 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: which was startling to think of, you know. And like 151 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: many kids, he went to a boarding school and some 152 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: of the some of the experiences he had there definitely 153 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: informed the way he approaches authority figures in his books. 154 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: Oh for sure. And there's actually a book he wrote, 155 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: i think his only work of nonfiction as in his 156 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: later career, called Boy, where he talks about growing up 157 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 2: and he talks about some really horrible experiences he had 158 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: at that boarding school, one of which included being caned 159 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: by the headmaster or by some high official till. 160 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: He was bloody Yeah, Headmaster Jeoffrey Fisher. And you're correct. 161 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: Boy. 162 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: Tales of Childhood was his almost an expose, you know, 163 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: but so far in the past. You'll always hear that thing. 164 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: Oh it was a different time. That's how they disciplined them. 165 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: But luckily for us and luckily for young readers around 166 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: the world, he did survive that horrific boarding school experience, 167 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: and in nineteen thirty four, when he finished school, he 168 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: crossed the Atlantic on the RMS Nova Scotia and hiked 169 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: through Newfoundland and eventually he got a job. Yeah, and 170 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: that was in September of nineteen thirty nine when he 171 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: started working for the Shell Oil Company in East Africa. 172 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: And it was at this time when England declared war 173 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: on Germany. And like many you know, strapping youths his age, 174 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: he decided to heed the call of war and go 175 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: join his compatriots and serve his country. So he drove 176 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: from Dare s Salaam to Narobi and there was a 177 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: Royal Air Force headquarters there and that is where he 178 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: signed up to become a fighter pilot. And just want 179 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: to say up front, some of this information we got 180 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: from a fantastic book called The Irregulars, Roll Dahl and 181 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: the British Spy Ring in Wartime Washington, which was written 182 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: by a journalist, American journalist by the name of Janette Konnant. Yes, 183 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: it's a fantastic book. It's actually a fairly recent book too, 184 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 1: and we can't recommend it enough. 185 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing that. 186 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: We would read for fun, which is always a beautiful 187 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: thing to say. But one thing that is definitely not 188 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: beautiful would be the reality of life as an aircraftman 189 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: in World War Two, especially this time. He was accept 190 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: did as Noel said in Nairubi for flight training with 191 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: sixteen other men, but only four of those, counting Rule Doll, 192 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: would survive the war. 193 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: And it's interesting because they were so desperate for pilots 194 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 2: that even at six foot six, quite lanky bean pole 195 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 2: of a man, he was accepted. And in the irregulars 196 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: it's described as he had to quote curl up into 197 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: a fetal position with his knees tucked tightly under his 198 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 2: chin in order to sit in the cockpit and his 199 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 2: head stuck out above the windshield like some kind of 200 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 2: cartoon character. But because the pilots were so in demand, 201 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 2: he was accepted, and then he trained very quickly, I 202 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 2: think two months doing test flights Shadan Kenya exactly. And 203 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: then next thing you know, he is thrust into the fray. 204 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: Right flying an obsolete craft Gloster Gladiator, the last biplane 205 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: fighter used by the Royal Air Force ever. And if 206 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: you have ever flown in a biplane, it's a fantastic 207 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: experience and it's terrifying to imagine having to conduct any 208 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: sort of mission of war in one of those things. 209 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 1: He almost died, as it turns out, right when he 210 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: again with this obsolete technology and we're talking obsolete even 211 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen thirties. He almost died because he 212 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: was flying and was. 213 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: Low on fuel. Yeah, and he crashed landed in the 214 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 2: desert in Egypt, and was able to pull himself from 215 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: the wreckage, from that fetal position, from the wreckage and 216 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: get far enough away quickly enough to avoid the subsequent 217 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 2: explosion and the hail of machine gun fire that was 218 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 2: set off by that blaze. Can you imagine, just like 219 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 2: trudging through I think he was picked up eventually by 220 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: a patrol and rescued. 221 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: And this dodging of a conflagration in machine gun fires 222 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: especially miraculous. We consider the piss poor condition he was 223 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: in immediately. His skull was fractured, his nose was smashed. 224 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: Most importantly, he was temporarily blind, so he had no 225 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: idea what was going on, and. 226 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: He remained blind for some time. Actually, his face was 227 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: reconstructed by a plastic surgeon, and you know, he sustained 228 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: spinal damage which caused him significant pain that would endure 229 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: for the rest of his life. Yeah. 230 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: And as it turned out, the Royal Air Force made 231 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: an inquiry into the crash, and they learned that the 232 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: place he had been told to go was the wrong place. 233 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't even supposed to be flying that way. 234 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: Can you imagine, just like with the technology they had 235 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: at the time, managing all of that, sending these you know, 236 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: squad and keeping things secret and having people end up 237 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: in the right place with these obsolete aircrafts. I mean, 238 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: I think more people would be crashing in the desert 239 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: in this situation, you know, given the circumstances. 240 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: That's a really good point too. Fast forward to let's 241 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: say nineteen forty one or so, he finally gets out 242 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: of the hospital from. 243 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: This crash, and again because of that desperation, he's back 244 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: in the air. Yep. 245 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, he is rated fully fit for flying duties, although 246 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: we will find out later that's not exactly the case unfortunately. 247 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: So what happens next, Well, next he is sent on 248 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: what basically amounted to a suicide mission. The Italians had 249 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: German reinforcements and the British were outnumbered in protecting Greece. 250 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: Doll was sent as part of the eighty Squadron to 251 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: basically protect the island of Greece, and that was only 252 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: one of two RAF squadron to cover this entire region, 253 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: and they were severely outnumbered. 254 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: Severely outnumbered is a great way to put it. His 255 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: first aerial combat occurs in the same year, in April, 256 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: and he attacks six other planes at once. They're Junker's 257 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: Ju eighty eights. These are bombers, right. He manages German planes, yeah, 258 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: German plans. He manages to shoot one down and later 259 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: the I think the next day. It was like the 260 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: fifteenth and the sixteenth. So he shot down one plane 261 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: one day and another plane the day after. Which does 262 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: that make him a fighting ac yet? No? 263 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: By my standard? 264 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: Sure? 265 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, by our standards, Yeah, for sure. I'm not sure 266 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: what the qualification for a status was, but certainly a badass. 267 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: Right, and his career as an airman continues. He is 268 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: in a time and in a position that is notoriously dangerous. Right, 269 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 1: he is not only surviving, but arguably he's thriving. 270 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty insane. In that campaign, which ultimately the 271 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: Germans totally ousted the Brits from Greece and won the day, 272 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: around thirteen thousand British fighter pilots were killed, wounded or imprisoned, 273 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: and as. 274 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: The Germans were advancing on Athens, Doll was evacuated along 275 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: with this volks to Egypt and the squadron got back together. 276 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: They put the band back together at Haifa. From Haifa, 277 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: he continued to fly, but in June he began to 278 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: get the worst, most debilitating headaches you could imagine, like 279 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: beyond migraines, to the point where he. 280 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 2: Actually blacked out a few times during flight. And then 281 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: he got checked out and the medics told him it 282 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: was probably because of altitude or like G's the gravitational effects, 283 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: But it turned out and that was not the case, 284 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: and it was just a holdover from that head injury 285 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: he got during that fateful crash back in Egypt his 286 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: first flight. So he was discharged honorably. 287 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: Yes, it was honorably discharged. He was originally hoping that 288 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: as he recovered, he would be able to one day 289 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: in the future become an instructor for newer pilots, newer 290 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: air servicemen. But then something happened, a plot twist occurred. 291 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: He had a meeting at a club with a very 292 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: influential figure named Major Harold Balfour, who was serving as 293 00:18:52,560 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: the Undersecretary of State for Air. Balfour was impressed. I 294 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: was like, this guy has walking the walk. He's a 295 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: fighter race at least Balfour thought he. 296 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: Was niece, right. 297 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: So Balfour appoints Dahl, who is still a young cat 298 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: by the way, at this time twenty four ish. Yeah, yeah, right, God, 299 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: what are we doing with our lives? 300 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 2: No, man, we're doing this, I guess. Yeah, well you 301 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 2: know we are. 302 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: So Balfer gets Dall a position as assistant Air Attache 303 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: at the British Embassy in DC, and this launches another 304 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: series of travels and incredibly important meetings. Initially, Doll is 305 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: amazed by all the luxuries in North America, but ten 306 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: days in, almost two weeks in, he hates it. He 307 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: thinks his job is pointless. He doesn't understand like what 308 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: he's doing. 309 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: And while he's it was meant to be like a 310 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 2: public relations kind of a position, right, and he wasn't 311 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: feeling it at all. He didn't want to do it 312 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 2: in the first place. I mean, when Valfour based insisted 313 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: that this is the job for you, Dall is quoted 314 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: as saying, oh, no, sir, please sir, anything but that's sir. 315 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 2: But Balfour was like, nope, and he made it an 316 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 2: order and said, according to the irregulars that it was 317 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 2: jolly important. Yes, so he saw maybe through just the 318 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 2: way Dahl kind of carried himself. He was reported to 319 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: be quite dashing and good at talking to people and 320 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: very you know ingratiating or whatever. So maybe he saw him, Okay, 321 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: well you can't fly. You were a good soldier, but 322 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: now I think we can use you in America. 323 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: Yes, And so Dall kept his stiff upper lip, sucked 324 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: it in, and as we say, he crossed the Atlantic 325 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: and he hated it. There's a quote that there's a 326 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: quote we found this pretty funny. He notes how priorities 327 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: had shifted. He said, I'd just come from the war. 328 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: People were getting killed. I had been flying around seeing 329 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: horrible things. Now almost instantly I found myself in the 330 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: middle of a pre war cocktail party in America. 331 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 2: Not to mention that back in London, I mean they 332 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: were getting bombed right by the Nazis, you know, it 333 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 2: was I mean there was even a period where Dahl 334 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: lost track of his family, you know, when he was away, 335 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 2: and he was told, well, they probably got bombed, you know, 336 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: and he did eventually find them, but he came from 337 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: you know, this experience of everything is just bleak and fallen, 338 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 2: crumbling infrastructure. To being in d C where they had 339 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 2: not yet declared war on the Japanese, you know, in 340 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: Pearl Harbor is what brought them into the fight. Like 341 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: you said earlier, there was this isolationist thing and we're like, well, 342 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: we're here in DC, you know, living it up with 343 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: the swells. Yeah. 344 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: Can you imagine you're someone saying, so rule Dall, you're 345 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: from England, TA, how's your family? And he's like, I 346 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: don't know, they might be dead. 347 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 2: Well, have you tried the shrimp? 348 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: It's a really disconcerting thing in this time, in this 349 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: sort of if we're going Joseph Campbell with it, in 350 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: this journey in the wilderness, in this dark knight of 351 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: the Soul or whatever, this is, when Dall meets another 352 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: person that will change his life an author named cs Forrester. 353 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: Cs Forrester had written this very popular series of books 354 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: featuring a character Horatio Hornblower, who was a navelman and 355 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: you know, all these adventures and Dall and his cohorts 356 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: in the RAF would have been super familiar with these, 357 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: you know, in their downtime reading these books. And he 358 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: was approached by this man who came directly to see 359 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: him and wanted to interview him about that crash in 360 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: Egypt that we talked about earlier where he went down 361 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: and had to run away from the explosion and very 362 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: heroic stuff. Because there was a newly established organization within 363 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: the British government that was based in the United States 364 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: called the British Information Services, and their job was kind 365 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 2: of to helps sway American sentiment towards supporting the war 366 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 2: effort and aiding Britain, who has always been a huge 367 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: ally of ours, but yet because of that isolationist position, 368 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 2: it wasn't something that our government was interested in getting 369 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 2: involved in. And one way of doing that and swaying 370 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: that opinion was with stories of heroism and these you know, 371 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 2: these moments like what happened to. 372 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: Dahl And we'll say it propaganda, Okay, yes, yeah, it's propaganda. 373 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 2: That doesn't mean it's not true. 374 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: That just means it's a narrative with an end goal. 375 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: It's persuasive writing. So Forrester has a deal where he's 376 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: going to sort of ghost write, is what they assumed. 377 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: They assumed that it would be like Saturday Evening post 378 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: features fighter Ace rule dall as told to CS Forrester, 379 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: you know the way that a lot of politicians today 380 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: don't actually write their own books. But turns out that 381 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: after Forrester read Doll's account, he thought, I don't have 382 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: to change this. This guy is actually a bang up writer. 383 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: He's top notch or the bee's knees or aces or 384 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: whatever people said at the time. The point is he 385 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: was surprisingly good. And they published the article with the 386 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: name shot Down over in Libya, and. 387 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: That was sort of a more sensationalized title that was 388 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 2: different from Doll's original title, which was the slightly more 389 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 2: tongue in cheek a piece of cake, which is a 390 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: term that fighter pilots used kind of jokingly to refer 391 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 2: to like maneuvers. It's a piece of cake, right. But 392 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 2: the fun thing about this is that maybe, in an 393 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: effort to impress this very famous writer who he looked 394 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: up to, he fictionalized the hell out of his account. 395 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's the always the problem when somebody's reminiscing 396 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: about their past events, isn't it. 397 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 2: He was. 398 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: Maybe a little more heroic, as you recall friends and 399 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: neighbors from earlier in the episode. 400 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: He was not shot down not in real life, he 401 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 2: was not. He ran a gas Yeah, he ran out 402 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 2: of gas. But it worked. 403 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: He was actually promoted, and I think it has something 404 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: to do with his success in this field and this 405 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: particular article. A piece of cake shot down over Libya. 406 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: They could have just combined it into one sentence, A 407 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: piece of cake shot down over there. 408 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: That would have been good. 409 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: It would been cool. This leads him to another significant meeting. 410 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: He meets a fellow named William Stevenson, and this is. 411 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: Where the super spy world kind of opens up for Doll. 412 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: Stevenson was the mastermind behind this secret ring I guess 413 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 2: of intelligence agents called the British Security Coordination or BSc. 414 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: This was a top secret institution set up in New 415 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: York City by m I six in nineteen forty under 416 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: the authorization of Churchill, m. 417 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 2: I six being sort of the British equivalent of the CIA, Yeah, yeah, 418 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: or the os SA at the time. 419 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're yeah, they're the they're the guys in the 420 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: dark with the trench coats, right exactly, or in the 421 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: case of mi I six, just fantastic tailored suits, yeah exactly. 422 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 2: In the case of Roldall the dashing young men in 423 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: the Taylor's suits with the cocktails at the cocktail parties, 424 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: betting influential heiresses and politicians. Yes, exactly, and that is betting. 425 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 2: Be D D I n G. Let's be clear about that. 426 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: Sir William Stevenson, as as we noted, is the head 427 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: of this organization that the United Kingdom's public and the 428 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: US public have no idea exists. He was doing some 429 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: things that were technically illegal, like he was passing, you know, 430 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: like UK secrets to Roosevelt. He was passing US secrets 431 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: to the UK. And he was also masterminding in a 432 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: very serious way, this push to alter the US opinion 433 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: the average voter. Given the way the US government works, 434 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: the average voter had to support this idea. We had 435 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: to be persuaded that it was somehow worth American lives 436 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: to send people across the seas and spend enormous amounts 437 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 1: of money to save other people in foreign lands, which 438 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: today happens all the time. 439 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: Frankly, absolutely, but I mean it feels like there's a 440 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: real parallel between the attitude of the government in our 441 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: country right now and the way things were back then. 442 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: And so what happens when Dall and Stevenson meet. 443 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: So what came of this meeting with Stevenson was Dall 444 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: being first kind of recruited as a freelancer for the BSc. 445 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 2: And a lot of that had to do with his 446 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,719 Speaker 2: success at writing all of these pieces that are ultimately 447 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: propaganda pieces, including a piece about Gremlins. He wrote a 448 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: book or a short story about Gremlins that got picked 449 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 2: up by Disney, and he had like personal meetings with 450 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: Walt Disney and Gremlins. I mean, you know, like obviously 451 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 2: the Gremlins the movie, but the Gremlins were originally these 452 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 2: little creatures that would mess with fighter pilots and it 453 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 2: was this lore, especially in Britain in the RAF that 454 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: they would make their planes malfunction and they blamed it 455 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: on Gremlins and throw Oren. Yeah. 456 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: One great example of that lore in fiction comes from 457 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: The Twilight Zone in the famous episode Shatner Yeah, with 458 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: William Shatner who sees Grimlin on the wing of a plane. 459 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: Although it is a commercial play which makes it creepy, 460 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: owns a great show. 461 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 2: I love it. But yeah, So that was probably what 462 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: got Stevenson's attention was Doll's success, and he wrote a 463 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: lot of different pieces that ended up in a lot 464 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 2: of different places that were perceived as being successful propaganda. 465 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: And part of the BSC's mission was similar to what 466 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: the British Information Services Mission was, was to turn that 467 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: public opinion towards supporting the United Kingdom in that war effort. 468 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: But he only freelanced for like a handful of months 469 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 2: before he was made a full fledged member of this 470 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: group known as the Baker Street Irregulars, which was named 471 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: after the spy ring that Sherlock Holmes kind of managed 472 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: in those books by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and they 473 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: were sort of street urchins that were sort of like 474 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: if you're a Game of Thrones fan, his little birds 475 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 2: that would, like, you know, whisper things and find secrets 476 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: and tell him so he could be on top of 477 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 2: He had eyes and ears everywhere, and that was what 478 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: Doll was a part of. And he wasn't the only 479 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: soon to be beloved author that was in this group, right. 480 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: One of them was a little guy under the name 481 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: of Ian Fleming. 482 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: Right, the author of the famous James Bond series. But 483 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: today Ian Fleming is a little bit more well known 484 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: as a guy who was a spy. Roald Dahl doesn't 485 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: get some of the credit that he deserves for this, 486 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: especially when you consider that they were living undercover at 487 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: the time. Just like CIA agents or CIA assets might 488 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: have a job in an embassy as the it guy 489 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: that actually does happen, he was working as a public 490 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: relations dude, a PR man. 491 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 2: That was the front. But when you hear some of 492 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: the stuff we're about to tell you, I don't think 493 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: you'd be too hard pressed to believe that James Bond 494 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: may have been based on Dall himself. That's how I 495 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 2: see it, I really do. He's definitely part of it. 496 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: Absolutelympletely agree. 497 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: I love the way that our author Lorie L. Dove, 498 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: writing for House of Works, describes dolls spy career. Did 499 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: this sentence stick out to you? 500 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: By all reports, he was both very good and very 501 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: bad at it. He was living extremes, I know, because 502 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: a big part of it was, you know, obviously keeping secrets. 503 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: And in a biography called Storyteller, Dahl's daughter actually sort 504 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 2: of said, yeah, Dad was a pretty bad gossip and 505 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: really didn't know when to keep his mouth shut. But 506 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: the part that he was really good at was ingratiating himself. 507 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: Two powerful people, and that included, as we said earlier, 508 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: powerful women who he let's just go and say it, seduced. Yeah, 509 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: we were talking about this off air. 510 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: Dall was a phenomenally talented little thought a ladies man, 511 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: and this really came in handy. This was a skill 512 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: that could be applied to sway in the opinions of 513 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: important people. But Noel, I know there was a quote 514 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: that you have been waiting to bring to the air. 515 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 2: I gotta do it, I gotta do it. In Storyteller, 516 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: the Authorized Biography of Roll Dall by Donald sturruty ten, 517 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,719 Speaker 2: he has a quote from one of Doll's close friends, 518 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: a man with a gloriously British name, Creek Moore Fath, 519 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: who described Doll as being quote one of the biggest 520 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: cocksmen in Washington. I'm just going to leave that there, 521 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 2: all one word, by the way, all one word. And 522 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 2: you know he is in the same way that you know. 523 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: It doesn't quite hold up today in some of the 524 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: James Bond movies, the way we see Bond manipulating women 525 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: and being a bit of a rake, right, that was Doll. 526 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, So he had numerous affairs, one with the heiress 527 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: to the standard oil fortune one with a congresswoman named 528 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: Claire booth Luce who later became an ambassador. And this 529 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: is just the beginning. But you have to wonder how 530 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: effective of a spy he was because he was swaying opinions, 531 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: but then he was talking about it, so it was 532 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: probably not a secret, or at least a very open 533 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: secret that he was sleeping around dc. 534 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: OH for sure. And he eventually became pals with the 535 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: guy by the name of Charles Marsh, who was a 536 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 2: Texan newspaper tycoon who was a huge fan of Churchill 537 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 2: and a big proponent of allying with the UK in 538 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: support of the fight against Hitler. And this was the 539 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: big goal, right, so he was probably able to kind 540 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 2: of help sway that in some of the reporting in 541 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: Marsh's papers. He also became close to a lot of 542 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: other prominent American journalists and several big time US officials, 543 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 2: including the Vice President Henry Wallace, who he played tennis 544 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 2: with on a regular basis. 545 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: There's a quote from Marsh's daughter, Antoinette Marsh Haskell that 546 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: I love In a piece written by Chris Irving over 547 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: at the Telegraph, he quotes Antonette Marsh Haskell is saying 548 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: girls just fell at Roll's feet. I think he slept 549 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: with everybody on the East and West coast that was 550 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 1: worth more than fifty thousand dollars a year. And he also, 551 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 1: by virtue of knowing these titans of industry and government, 552 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: he was able to function as not just a propagandist, 553 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: but a clandestine avenue of information, of transmission of information. 554 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: So he told. 555 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: He told Stevenson and the other folks at the UK 556 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: that he believed, for instance, the president, President Franklin Roosevelt, 557 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: was sleeping around with the Crown Princess of Norway who 558 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: had been granted asylum in the US. 559 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: He also, I think gave first word to the UK 560 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: that the US was going to the moon. 561 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was telling people important things. 562 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 2: I mean, he even worked his way up to becoming 563 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 2: so cozy with Roosevelt himself that he was pretty regularly 564 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 2: invited to vacation with the man at his Hyde Park 565 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: estate in New York. 566 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: Yes, and in nineteen forty four he began experiencing back 567 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: pain and underwent a series of treatments that kept him 568 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: in traction for several months. While he was recovering, President 569 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: Roosevelt unfortunately passed away and Germany lost the war. Well, 570 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: that part was fortunate, that's very fortunate, But it's sad 571 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: that Roosevelt passed away. Yeah, but yeah, imagine being rolled 572 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: dall and coming out from this dreadful recovery, this hard 573 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: earned recovery, and then find and then learning that you know, 574 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: you won the war. 575 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 2: I would say it was probably a little bittersweet, Ben, 576 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 2: But then you know, it did give him the opportunity 577 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: to leave that spies life, that's washbuckling coxsman life behind him. 578 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: Yes, he settled down. He married Patricia Neil in nineteen 579 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: fifty three. Their marriage lasted for thirty years. 580 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 2: And this episode is not about the subsequent career that 581 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 2: Dahlwood had, but we as we know, he became a 582 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 2: giant of literature and beloved very much to this day. 583 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: And not a lot of people know where a lot 584 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 2: of that stuff came from. And Ben, do you like 585 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 2: the term fabulous? Yeah, isn't that a fun one? It's 586 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: a good one. 587 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: It's a you know, I'm torn because fictionist was another 588 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,720 Speaker 1: one that we discovered on the show that I really enjoyed. 589 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: But fabulous as well, I would describe him as such. 590 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 2: But basically, Dahl, even with that fictionalization of his you know, 591 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: war efforts and that plane crash in Egypt, he was 592 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: kind of a professional liar, which is what a spy is. 593 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 2: And ultimately what a good author is, right is to 594 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: tell a convincing lie. 595 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: Or to find the truth of the human experience through fiction, 596 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: which is a lie. I completely agree, And I also 597 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: have to wonder what would have happened had he not 598 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: been in the hospital for those few months. Would he 599 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: have continued, because as we know, when he comes out 600 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: of the hospital, he's lost sort of his taste for 601 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: the spy's life, and he's ready to go home and 602 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: settle down. He feels he's served his car. But what 603 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,280 Speaker 1: if he continued, how would our image of James Bond 604 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: have changed. I'd like to hear some fabulousm from you folks, 605 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: let us know. And while you're at it, we cannot 606 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: recommend the book The Regulars enough. If you want to 607 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: read something related, we'd also like to recommend Churchill's Ministry 608 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: of Ungentlemanly Warfare by Giles Milton. And it's about the 609 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: Other Front, not this is about Churchill's clandestine activities to 610 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: try to assassinate. 611 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 2: Hitler and our pals Holly and Tracy over stuff you 612 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 2: missed in history class. Actually just recently did a two 613 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 2: part episode on the ministry of ungentlemanly warfare, so pop 614 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,879 Speaker 2: over and check that out and definitely pick up the book. 615 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: And I would like to end with a nice quote 616 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 2: from Dahl himself that I think ties a lot of 617 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 2: this together. Quote, truth is far too precious a commodity 618 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 2: to be used lightly. 619 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: And with that, huge thank you to our friend and 620 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: super producer Ramsey yunt our super producer case. 621 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 2: Pegrum, thanks to Alex Williams for composing our theme and 622 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 2: sound cues, and thanks to Laurie L. Dove for writing 623 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 2: the article for how Stuff Works that we refer to 624 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 2: several times in this episode. 625 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, We're on 626 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: the usual Internet places you'll see us there Ridiculous History, or. 627 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 2: You can get us anywhere that you get your podcasts. 628 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: You already know that you're getting it from wherever you're 629 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 2: going to get it. You don't need us to tell you. 630 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 2: But most importantly, thanks to you for listening, and we 631 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 2: really hope that you'll join us for the next episode 632 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 2: of ridiculous history. Have a great day everyone. For more 633 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 634 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,720 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.