1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: If you are against misinformation and hate speech, you know 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: you gotta be against it on all platforms, and not 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: just on TikTok. There are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: Todd and this is there are No Girls on the Internet. 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: Let's talk about TikTok, the super popular social media app 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: owned by byte Dance, a Chinese based company. Now a 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: growing collection of elected officials want TikTok banned in the 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: United States because they say it represents a national security risk. 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: The Biden administration demanded that TikTok be sold or it 11 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: could face a ban in the US. Congress has also 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: rolled out a bipartisan bill allowing a nationwide TikTok band, 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: called the Restrict Act, which would allow the Secretary of 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: Commerce to ban apps that pose a risk to US 15 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: national security. Last week, members of Congress held a hearing 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: where they grilled TikTok CEO show Ze two. Now, y'all know, 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: I love TikTok, but I also know that, like any 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: other social media app, it is not without its issues. 19 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: TikTok disinformation researcher and friend of the show, Abby Richards 20 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: was one of the first people calling out TikTok for 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: the way that myth and disinformation and hate speech spreads 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: on the app. But for all of her criticisms of TikTok, 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: Abby still says that banning the platform is not the 24 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: right move. In a recent upend for Newsweek that you 25 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: can read in the show notes, Abby explained why she 26 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: thinks banning TikTok will ultimately hurt marginalized communities. I caught 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: up with Abby right after we both watch the hearing 28 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: Abby Richards, friend of the show, how are you? I 29 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: am angry, bridget I am an infuriated girl right now, 30 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: as someone who has really built a lot of your 31 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: career not on TikTok, but like calling out TikTok for 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 1: the ways that it can spread misinformation and hate speech? 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: What is the big light to watch elected officials talk 34 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: about banning it. It's been infuriating because they're going to 35 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: get all wrong. It's like I have literally built my 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: career criticizing TikTok. I will be the first to tell 37 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: you about like the copious amounts of misinformation and hate speech, extremism, 38 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: harassment that happened on that app. But to then try 39 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: and ban it without any evidence that it is a 40 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: national security threat whatsoever, and just using like fearmongering and 41 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 1: pointing to other pieces of misinformation that I have tried 42 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 1: to debunk about TikTok like that. And this is like 43 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: the types of misinformation that emerges off the platform. So 44 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: if you were watching the hearing yesterday, you would have 45 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: seen a lot of our congressmen and women pointing to 46 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: TikTok challenges that are causing children tons of harm. And 47 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: I have spent so many, like countless hours debunking these 48 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: exact like moral panics around these challenges, where essentially adults 49 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: try and blame the stupid things that kids do on 50 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: the newest technology. We see it over and over and 51 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: over again. But the fact that you know that's being 52 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: used to justify the banning of this app too is infuriating, 53 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: and I'm deeply concerned about the what the consequences will 54 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: be of banning an app that one hundred and fifty 55 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: million Americans use. So you brought up something really interesting. 56 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: I know that these so called like deadly challenges was 57 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: a big part of the hearings, and something that I mean, 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: I almost hate to ask this question, but I feel 59 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: like it's an important context of the conversation that is 60 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: like great news for Facebook. They're like, oh, our strategy 61 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: is winning, Like our strategy to turn the public and 62 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: of course elected officials against TikTok and make them think 63 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: that like it's this like place where all these deadly 64 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: challenges emerge, even though some at least some of those 65 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: challenges actually emerged on Facebook. If you really want to 66 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: get into the nitty gritty, did you so did you 67 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: see in the hearings the ways that like fear mongering 68 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: just sort of large about technology was taking center stage 69 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: in these hearings. It's almost like they're placing this fear 70 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: that they have of new and emerging technologies and how 71 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: young people use them and just placing it on one 72 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: singular app. So rather than actually dealing with the consequences 73 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: of this like rapidly changing society because of the expansion 74 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: of technology, like on a monthly basis, we just want 75 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: to like pin all of our anxiety on one app 76 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: and cross our fingers that like if we just ban 77 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: this one app, it'll all go away. And so I 78 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: think we see that a lot with the challenges and 79 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: like though the steam that they pick up among people 80 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: who are not on the platform. In particular, we know 81 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: that it was the Washington Post that reported that there 82 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: was like a consulting group. There was the Washington Post 83 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: that reported that there was a marketing group that was 84 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: working with Meta to place op eds about, you know, 85 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: fearmongering about TikTok. So that's something that we have seen 86 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: happened before, and it certainly seems like this is a 87 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: big win for Meta. If you are on TikTok at all, 88 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: you are probably seeing this widespread popularity of almost conspiratorial 89 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: language about where people are blaming the ban on Meta 90 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and saying that like Meta is lobbying and Google too 91 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: to some extent blaming it, but yeah, blaming it on Meta, 92 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: on Google for lobbying Congress people and encouraging them to 93 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: ban their biggest competition. I don't know how much truth 94 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: there is to that, because I think that there is 95 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: a lot of geopolitics there too, and it seems like 96 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: the US government is you know, very interested in like 97 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: splitting the Internet as much as possible right now. So 98 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: it's it's hard to say if it's like one cause 99 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: versus another, but this does definitely look like a big 100 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: win for Meta, and they used rhetoric that Meta has 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: also pushed before. Yeah, so in terms of a TikTok band, 102 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: So in your piece you write about how you know, 103 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: obviously you are the first one one to admit that 104 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: TikTok has its downfalls and the democratization of like media 105 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: has its downfalls, but you also talk about the ways 106 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: that this could actually harm marginalized communities. How do you 107 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: see that working? So let's okay, well we'll start you 108 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: and you consider a like institutional media, legacy media, So 109 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, CNN. They 110 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: are top down information systems, which means that these newsrooms 111 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: essentially look at all of the news and then decide 112 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: what is newsworthy and then disseminate it to their audience. 113 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: TikTok is much more of a bottom up information system, 114 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: which means that anyone can post basically anything that they want, 115 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: and then the algorithm is working with the users to 116 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: determine what people are watching, and in that way, the 117 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: users decide what is of importance to them. So we 118 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: have two different information systems, and this top down one 119 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: tends to privilege white richer more privileged people. It tends 120 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: to be composed of people who come from more privileged backgrounds. 121 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: It speaks about their problems and things that they are 122 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: interested in thinking about. They in particular like they have 123 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: to sell subscriptions or sell ads, so they have to 124 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: run stories that they know that the wealthy, the audience 125 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: that they pant or two will be interested in the 126 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: first place, because it's really not that profitable to tell 127 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: stories of marginalized people who can't afford to subscribe to 128 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: their newspaper. So TikTok being this much more bottom up 129 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: infrastructure allowed for two major like kind of newish forms 130 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: of massive dissemination of news and information. The first would 131 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: be seeing information from firsthand accounts, So that's like when 132 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: you know this, these started the invasion of Ukraine where 133 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: we saw all of these videos of people leaving the 134 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: country or being a bomb shelter. So you're seeing people 135 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: who are actually experiencing the events posting online and that 136 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: garner's attention without editors needing to push it out. And 137 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: then the second is through trusted messengers, and these are 138 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: people that can speak to specific communities and they have 139 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: had they've had a lot of success on TikTok. They 140 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: have built up these communities where they are trusted sources 141 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: of information and sometimes opinion. People go to them to 142 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: try and feel like they can understand certain problems. And 143 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, this could range from a community of like 144 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: ten thousand people to communities of millions of people. But 145 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: this is particularly advantageous to marginalized groups who probably can't 146 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: afford a subscription to The New York Times, or alternatively, 147 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: they don't want one because they don't trust the New 148 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: York Times. They've never seen themselves represented in the New 149 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 1: York Times. Like, there are so many reasons why they 150 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: might not turn to legacy media, but they will turn 151 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: to like a trust messenger who looks like them, who 152 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: speaks their language, who they feel understands them in their communities. 153 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: And so if we dismantle that infrastructure like suddenly, like 154 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: flipping off a light switch, you'd be leaving all of 155 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: these communities without their information infrastructure, and that could be 156 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: leaving them in the dark. It could be really really 157 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: damaging for them. And they're very resilient. All of these 158 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: marginalized comunities, whether it's communities of color, queer communities, disabled communities, 159 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: they're they're very resilient, they will rebuild, but keeping them 160 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: in a state of like constantly rebuilding the information infrastructure 161 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: stops them from being able to do things like organized, immobilize, 162 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: and gain power because they're constantly rebuilding their their information infrastructure. 163 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm mad. I mean that's such a good point, Like, 164 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: I oh, where do I even start. I think that 165 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,239 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we're even having this conversation 166 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: is like a fundamental misunderstanding of the ways that platforms 167 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: like TikTok have worked and what they have been used to, 168 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: like what movements they've been used to build, right, Like 169 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: I still see people being like, oh, like it's a 170 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: kid's dancing app, which like part of my soul dies 171 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: every time I hear that, you know, looking around, Like 172 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: what was happening to women in Iran? I have to say, 173 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: I don't think I would have known what was happening. 174 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: I don't think I would have known what was going 175 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: on if not for TikTok, if not for Iranian women 176 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: saying hey, this is what's going on, here's how you 177 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: can help, here's what we need, I don't think I 178 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: would have been able to be plugged into what was 179 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: happening if not for TikTok, And so I think that 180 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: it's it's like a it's like a the people who 181 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: are legislating this don't necessarily have that visibility into the 182 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: ways that it is functioned for communities who are marginalized. 183 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: And so I if we're going to have any conversation 184 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: about just an outright ban, they're not even including that 185 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: in the conversation. And I feel like it kind of 186 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: like what you said, like, if we're going to do 187 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: something about how these apps and platforms function in our 188 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: lives and in our like media ecosystem, let's not have 189 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: it be done hastily and badly right where people where 190 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: people are going to be have the rug pulled out 191 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: from under them and they're they're very real issues are 192 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: not even being discussed or like you know, brought to 193 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: the table. Oh yeah, there's no nuance in this conversation whatsoever. 194 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: And you would think that if we're going to have 195 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: a conversation about pulling the plug on one of the 196 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: biggest pieces of communications infrastructure in the world, that is 197 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 1: a conversation that we should be very careful about. Dismantling 198 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: infrastructure that large is not a decision that should be 199 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: taken lightly. And yet it seems like our representatives like 200 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,359 Speaker 1: truly have bought into this idea that TikTok is somehow 201 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: simultaneously just a kid's dancing app and also spywear. Like 202 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: it's really confusing how it can be both, and like 203 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: saying like, oh, well, you could push specific you know, 204 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: you could push specific misinformation campaigns and try and sway 205 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: the American populace, but then also simultaneously ignoring the fact 206 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: that like it is a messaging center for a huge 207 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: portion of the American populace. If you just remove it, 208 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: there will be consequences. And then when I bring this up, 209 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: I see some people like, oh, well, you know, at 210 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: the like you know, national security is more important, or 211 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: it's like everyone will just go to a new app, 212 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: and like, yes, probably they will, but that doesn't mean 213 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: that it won't cause a lot of harm in the process. 214 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that people will you know, there's still 215 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: going to be lots of creators who lose their jobs. 216 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: There's going to people people who have built these large 217 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: audiences who now have nothing, and a lot of people 218 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: whose voices were empowered and suddenly we're coming into a 219 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: position of discursive power. Who will now not have access 220 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: to that? And even if like yes, technically, if you 221 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: look at like a very big picture level, people will 222 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: migrate to new apps, sure, but there's still going to 223 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: be a lot of consequences and we can't really ignore that. Yeah, 224 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: I mean, even looking at what's going on with Twitter. 225 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: I there was a time where I was like, Oh, 226 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: everyone's going to be using Mastodon or this or that. 227 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: It hasn't. And I know that our communities, particularly marginalized communities, 228 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: as you said, are really resilient, and we always find 229 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: a way to make We always make a way out 230 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: of no way, right, Like that is what we do. 231 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: But it's watching it watching Twitter become a place where 232 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: people spend less and less of their time. There hasn't 233 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: been like one place where everybody is like setting up shop, 234 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: and so it's takes longer, it's messier, it's it's more 235 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: energy for these communities, many of whom I look at, 236 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: the trans community and the queer community are up against 237 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: quite a bit right now. And so maybe having to 238 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: pick up and rebuild a new communications infrastructure elsewhere it's 239 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: not what they need right now, is maybe it is 240 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: maybe not going to be like great for those communities. 241 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: It will be horrible for them because now, in addition 242 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: to legislation that is threatening their right to exist, they 243 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: also don't have their communities that they can turn to 244 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: for advice, for support, for information, and they don't have 245 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: access to their broader communications network to mobilize right and 246 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: and plan what they will do in response or try 247 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: and like have a place they can turn to to 248 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: raise funds if they need surgery, or if they need 249 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: legal fees, or if they need to get out of 250 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: whichever state they're in. If you remove the communications infrastructure, 251 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: and we're talking about a marginalized community that is undergoing 252 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: a lot of legislative challenges right now, that's putting them 253 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: in a position that just increases their marginalization. Let's take 254 00:15:54,280 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: a quick break enter back. So let me zoom out 255 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: a little bit and just make sure that I have 256 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: this right. Lawmakers are saying that they want to ban 257 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: TikTok because it's a national security risk. This is a 258 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: little bit above my pay grade. I am no digital 259 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: national security expert, and I want to make sure that 260 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: my understanding of this aligns with your understanding. So it 261 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: is true that TikTok is a Chinese owned company, and 262 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: it is true that potentially that could open the door 263 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: for all kinds of national security risks. But what we 264 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: don't have right now is a smoking gun that this 265 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: is actually a problem. We're very much speaking in hypotheticals 266 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: of what could happen or what potentially might happen. So 267 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: lawmakers right now are trying to legislate TikTok because of 268 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: this hypothetical threat that might be out there, but it's 269 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: not yet revealed itself. Do I have that right? Yeah, 270 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: I would say you nailed it. Okay. They haven't provided 271 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: any evidence of instances where China use TikTok in any 272 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: sort of antagonistic way towards the US. It's only in 273 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: the hypothetical of like they own it and they maybe could, 274 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: and even if they could, it's kind of unclear how 275 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: they would go about doing that. What we do know 276 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: and like, what feels like it's it's missing from this 277 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: conversation so much, is that even if we were to 278 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: band TikTok, it would not stop the Chinese government or 279 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: any government or any bad actor from just buying your 280 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: data elsewhere. TikTok is roughly collecting about the same same 281 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: amount of data as any of the other major social 282 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: media platforms, and then they profit by selling off selling it. Well, 283 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: it wasn't the hearing that he denied that they sell 284 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: They sold data, So maybe they're not even selling the data. 285 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: But social media platforms in general collect your data and 286 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: sell it, and it is not difficult for anyone with 287 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: any sort of intention to just buy your data so 288 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: that they can target you with specific advertisements and specific messages. 289 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: So if we were actually concerned about the Chinese government 290 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: or any other government manipulating Americans, you would be implementing 291 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: like a comprehensive data privacy legislation rather than going after 292 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: one singular app. Because even if you were to band TikTok, 293 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: and even if TikTok were using its data in that way, 294 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: which we still have no evidence that it does, they 295 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: would still just be able to purchase your data anywhere else. 296 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: So this is like applying a used, gross infected band 297 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: aid to a wound that will really not fix the 298 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: wound at all, but will almost certainly add additional infections. 299 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was just about to read your 300 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: quote in the newsweek piece. Back to you, but yeah, 301 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: I mean this is this is what really gets me 302 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: about this conversation is that, like, I guess, we have 303 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: no meaningful data privacy legislation in this country, right, and 304 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,719 Speaker 1: so like that, the fact that we're even having this 305 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: conversation indicates to me a complete failure of leadership, governing 306 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: and legislating, right, And so I feel like banning TikTok 307 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: is this big flashy gesture of like, see we did something, 308 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: See we got it together and governed and made some 309 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: kind of a gesture toward you know, data privacy, but 310 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: it actually does nothing. As you said, like there's nothing 311 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: keeping these companies or really anybody from buying our data, 312 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: Like there are so many other the fact that our 313 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: data is so misused, and like that is the baseline. 314 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: Shouldn't we be talking about that? So even if we 315 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: were to ban TikTok, it would be totally possible for 316 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,719 Speaker 1: the Chinese govern meant to access Americans data and all 317 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: other kinds of ways they maybe may have. And so 318 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: it's like, what does it really do if the real 319 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: problem is our lack of data privacy infrastructure in this country, 320 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: other than being a big flashy gesture, what does banning 321 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: TikTok actually achieve. I mean, to answer your question nothing. 322 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: On a political level, I think that it is a 323 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: distraction that allows for the American public to feel like 324 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: something was done to make them feel safer, while simultaneously 325 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: not passing the legislation that would actually protect the American public, 326 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: And like, we are a superpower and we demand that 327 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: all of the major social media platforms be stemming from us. 328 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: How dare the Chinese also have one? Yeah? I saw 329 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: this great USA Today headline that was like, how like 330 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: how dare China trying to get my data from TikTok? 331 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: Don't they know that? That? For Google and Facebook? Like, 332 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,239 Speaker 1: and I think I get like like we have just 333 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 1: like lost the plot of doing anything to meaningfully address this. 334 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think like during the hearing, some of 335 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: the things that came up around like content moderation and stuff, 336 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: those are important conversations to have, but having them having 337 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: TikTok be the face of, you know, a lack of 338 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: content moderation or hate speech and harmful content proliferating on 339 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: a platform. I'm asked, someone who has worked in this 340 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: space for a while, I'm deeply uncomfortable with that because 341 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: I think it creates a scapegoat that lets these other 342 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: I would say, sometimes bad actors off the hook, right, Like, 343 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: we're not We're not having the conversation in a meaningful 344 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: way to actually get results. We're just making an example 345 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: out of this one big bad boogeyman, which is TikTok. Yeah, definitely, 346 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: And I mean the examples that they were pointing to 347 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: aside from these like moral panic challenges, the examples of 348 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: violent content on the app were really wild that they 349 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: were pointing to it in the first place. Because as 350 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: far as removing you know, really violent content, TikTok is 351 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: better than most of the other platforms. I mean, I 352 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: professionally criticized them. It's one of my favorite things to 353 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: do is bullying TikTok. But they will generally be pretty 354 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: good about removing anything that I flagged towards them. And 355 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: they have a lot of like horrible things on their apps, 356 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: like absolutely, but all social media platforms do. And so 357 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: what you really want to be looking at, too, is 358 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: just how much reached are those things getting. So one 359 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: of the videos that they pulled up during the hearing 360 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: was an imagery of a gun, and I think it 361 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: included one of the committee members names, and it was 362 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: and they were they were railing on TikTok because the 363 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: video had been up for I believe forty one days, 364 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: and what they were failing to account for that the 365 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: video had like no likes, It was not a video 366 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: that had been engaged with whatsoever. So arguably it's actually TikTok. 367 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: It's evidence that TikTok was doing a decent job with 368 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: its moderation, but that it had like siphoned this off 369 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: and contained it more than anything else. Like, yes, it 370 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't be on the platform at all, but if it's 371 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: not getting any reach, really, then TikTok's moderation to an 372 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: extent is working. That's the whole point. It's like, you 373 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: want these things contained, you want them, you want them 374 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: quarantined so that they don't spread. So being able to 375 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: point towards that was like, it was such a strange choice. 376 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: And then it was additionally strange because we love Dunce 377 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: in this country but apparently have problems with images of them. 378 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: If you watch the hearing, there were actually some pretty 379 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: good questions that came up. Representative Yvette D. Clark asked 380 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: whether or not TikTok suppresses marginalized creators and Representative Lisa 381 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: Blunt Rochester asked about whether accurate information about abortion is 382 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: being suppressed on TikTok, but what was much more abundant. Sadly, 383 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: we're questions that weren't just silly, but also underscored how 384 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: little some elected officials seem to know about the technology 385 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: that they are responsible for legislating. Yeah, I mean that 386 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: example really brings me to something that like it pains me, 387 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: but I can't not talk about it with you. How 388 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: some of the questions and examples that these elected officials 389 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: were raising, we're just embarrassing, Like, you know, Representative Richard 390 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: Hudson from North Carolina like, I'm sure you know what 391 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: I'm going. I'm what I'm getting at the like exchange 392 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: about whether or not TikTok accesses users home WiFi, Like 393 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: do you ever so like, do you ever feel like 394 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: the people that we have elected to represent us and 395 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: to advocate for us and our interests up against a 396 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: big tech just are making it clear that they are 397 00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: talking about legislating technology that they seem to not really 398 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: understand or get. No, it was quite clear that no 399 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: one on that committee had ever opened TikTok like they 400 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: had never used it before. They're just making wild statements 401 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: and accusations and guesses about how it works. And if 402 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: you go on TikTok now in response to that committee, 403 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean, they're just being ridiculed because the users can 404 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: tell that these congressmen and women have never really actually 405 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: used the app or know what they're talking about in 406 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. And it is mind bogglingly 407 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: infuriating to witness people who don't even understand how Wi 408 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: Fi works, or like couldn't tell you the difference between 409 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: a modem and a rotor trying to legislate major major 410 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: social media policies, like in major data privacy elelicies, like 411 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: they don't understand any of it, So how are we 412 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: expecting them to even nowhere to begin when it comes 413 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: to those bigger legislative problems. It really goes back to 414 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 1: what you said in the beginning of our conversation of like, 415 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: if we're gonna do it, let's not do it badly. 416 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: Let's not do it in a way that like we 417 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: are talking about a pretty major communications platform. If we're 418 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: going to do it, let's not have the people in 419 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: charge make it clear time and time again that they 420 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: have no idea what they're talking about. Maybe just maybe, 421 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: just maybe that could maybe be a good place to start. 422 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: Is like knowing that you need to use Wi Fi 423 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: to access TikTok. Like, oh my god, I really liked 424 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: the exchange about whether or not TikTok tracked how much 425 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: your pupils dilated in response to certain videos. And it's like, no, 426 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: they look at watch time. They're not like reading your 427 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: pupils to see how big they get in response to 428 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: each video. Don't know what Black Mirror episode do you 429 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: think we are in. We're in a different one. We're 430 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: still in one, but it's different, just a different episode. Yeah, 431 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think that TikTok is like 432 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: like logging your biometrics, dude. Like it just it just 433 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: was some of those questions were concerning. And I also 434 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: think they just like reveal how we just need younger people. 435 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: I think, like, yeah, like younger folks both in the 436 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: both in elected office and also being listened to. I 437 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: think is really really important people who actually have real 438 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: world experience with the technology that they're talking about. Because 439 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: it was, as you said, it was just so clear 440 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: that many of the folks in Congress, I just had 441 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: no idea what they were talking about. Yeah. No, we 442 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: would absolutely need to have younger people or just more 443 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, digitally literate people writing these laws, because if 444 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: you truly don't understand that, like the app needs to 445 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: track where your eyes are so that they can put 446 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: sunglass filters on you like that, that is just something 447 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: that a younger peace person would need to explain and 448 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: need to help them understand. And if all of our 449 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: legislators are you know, I don't want to say dinosaurs, 450 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: but like they're acting like dinosaurs right now, and I 451 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: feel like it's it's called for, then we can't expect 452 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: solid digital legislation from them. Like they don't they don't 453 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: know what they're doing. They don't understand anything beyond email 454 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: at this point. Yeah, that is sad. I mean it's 455 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: really sad. It's really scary because if you want to 456 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: talk about like the American people being vulnerable, our leaders 457 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: not even understanding like the you know, bare minimum that 458 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: they need to understand about how the internet works like 459 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: that leaves us quite vulnerable. That's such a good point. 460 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: That seems like a much bigger threat our leaders failing 461 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: to understand anything about technology feels like a much bigger 462 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: threat than this TikTok boogeyman scare. So what do you 463 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: say to someone listening who was, like, I am concerned 464 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: about the national security threat that TikTok poses. Still, what 465 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: would you say to that person? I would say that 466 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: at this point in time, we have seen more evidence 467 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: of Facebook engaging in schemes to manipulate the American public 468 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: than we have TikTok. I mean, we have evidence of 469 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: Cambridge Analytica, we know that Meta was involved with this, 470 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: we have no evidence of TikTok doing it. So at 471 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: the moment, all of our fears are based around a hypothetical, 472 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: and that they are based around this like boogeyman of China, 473 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: and that that might not be the best place to 474 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: create legislation from, Like that mentality might not lend itself 475 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: to the creation of like really strong digital privacy legislation, 476 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: And that I mean also, if you are personally concerned 477 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: about TikTok, I like, there's no reason why you have 478 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: to have it on your phones. That's a decision that 479 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: you can totally make if you have if you have 480 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: national secrets on your phones, like maybe don't have TikTok 481 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: on it, But then also like maybe don't use any 482 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: other social media platforms because they are all gathering your data. 483 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. 484 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: Other platforms are also gathering your data and behaving badly 485 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: and acting in ways that calls all kinds of harm. 486 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: But this legislation is very much black and white, and 487 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: it seems very much it's based in scaremongering about TikTok 488 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: as this potential boogeyman. And I just don't think that 489 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: fear mongering is a place that will elicit good, meaningful, 490 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: subsidutive legislation. You know, black and white thinking on a 491 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: nuanced issue is bad enough, but black and white legislating, 492 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't like it. I don't like 493 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: it either. I don't trust it's it's not coming from 494 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: a smart place. It's coming from a fearful place. And 495 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: that's not where we get good legislation. And if you 496 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: want to have a much bigger conversation about social media 497 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: and the future of social media and whether it's bad 498 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: for us, whether it's good for us, what harms it does, 499 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: But also, you know what net positives it brings to 500 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: the world. I am here for that conversation. It'll take 501 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: us a few years to get to the bottom of it. 502 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: It is not like a quick and easy conversation to have. 503 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: But I do think that that's one we should be having, 504 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: and I've been trying to push for it. It's like, Okay, well, 505 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: there are all these issues with like misinformation and extremism 506 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: on social media, and we know that these platforms benefit 507 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: from the posting and sharing of content that is that 508 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: appeals to our emotions, that is often false, or is 509 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: oversimplifying really complex issues, or it's just like extremist and 510 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: hateful in nature. We know that they benefit from that 511 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: because that's the sort of content that keeps people on 512 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: their platforms, consuming content and therefore consuming ads. And I 513 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: would like us to be working towards the creation of 514 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: like digital communities that are better for our emotional and 515 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: social well beings. I could absolutely see that occurring in 516 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: the future. Is like creating these digital public spaces where 517 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: people can go share information, but that aren't driven exclusively 518 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: by profit and are built with the goal of creating 519 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: a more well informed and empathetic public. But that doesn't 520 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: happen just because you ban one app you don't like. 521 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: Like that is deep, deep infrastructural change that we need 522 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: to make and I think is the only way really 523 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: forward unless we want to drive ourselves insane. But that's 524 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: not a light and easy task. It's certainly not going 525 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: to be be achieved by banning one app. Yeah, if 526 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: you are against misinformation and hate speech, you know you 527 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: gotta be against it on all platforms, and not just 528 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: on TikTok, because Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, they all have it. 529 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: I mean, Twitter right now is also such a mess 530 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: just as a like, it is wild to watch all 531 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: of this, this the giant attack on TikTok. Meanwhile, Twitter 532 00:33:53,480 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: is just falling apart, crumbling and has disintegrated as like 533 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: this this reasonable public space and the fact that you know, 534 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: we thought we would be losing TikTok and essentially be 535 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: losing Twitter. That would really leave Meta with a lot 536 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: of power. But I also think it's interesting that like 537 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: one rich guy can just buy and ruin Twitter, but 538 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: like god forbid, an app has some Chinese ownership. If you, 539 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: if you had to fay, do you think that TikTok 540 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: is going to be banned? In the United States. I'm 541 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: pretty fifty fifty right now. I don't like it. If 542 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: you would ask me before, I'd be like, probably not 543 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: because I thought that the Dems were smarter than that. 544 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: I don't, I know, I know what I in hindsight, 545 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: what was I thinking? They love losing um. But I 546 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: just I was baffled that the Biden administration pushed for 547 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: the sale versus ban because I thought that they knew 548 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,439 Speaker 1: that if they lost TikTok, they would not be able 549 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: to mobilize voters in twenty twenty four. But apparently they 550 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: don't know that and they just are down for political suicide. 551 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: I really it baffles me. So I continue to be 552 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: wrong and surprised by what they will do in the 553 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: name of like this weird singular bipartisanship over xenophobia. It's 554 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: the one thing that they can relate to the Republicans 555 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,919 Speaker 1: on right now. Also, you know, you made the point 556 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: about mobilizing younger voters. I said this on a panel 557 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: and it got like a laugh and I was like, oh, 558 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: that was actually serious, I think, And it is might 559 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: sound it's gonna sound how it sounds, but I truly 560 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: believe this. I being if TikTok is banned in the 561 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: United States, I see that going very poor for Biden 562 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: and the Democrats. Not to make this like a horse 563 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: race issue, but I think that some of the most interesting, 564 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: meaningful organizing of young folks politically is happening on TikTok. 565 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: If you look at the conversations that younger folks are 566 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: leading on when it comes to things like climate justice, 567 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: those conversations are happening on TikTok, and they are mobilization conversations. 568 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: So I don't I'm not saying that I think that 569 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: young people will be like, oh, we love TikTok and 570 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: we're not going to vote for Joe Biden just because 571 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: he banned it and we love it. I think it's 572 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: much deeper than that. I think that gen z uses 573 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: it as a platform to do political and social mobilization 574 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: and organizing. If you show that you don't not just 575 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 1: don't understand that, don't see it, don't value it, ignore it, 576 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: that is going to be a problem. And so it's 577 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: not an issue of like, oh, these whiney brats just 578 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: want their dance videos. No, no, no no, no. I think 579 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: it's much deeper than that. And if you show that 580 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: you aren't even able to see that it is going 581 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: to be a problem one hundred percent. And people keep 582 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,479 Speaker 1: playing this off as like, oh, you're going to piss 583 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: off gen Z and it's like that's that's less what 584 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm worried about. I think a lot of gen Z 585 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: would still you know, the ones who are going to 586 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: vote anyways, will still vote for the lesser of two evils, 587 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: Like that's going to continue. But what will you will? 588 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: But what you will lose is all of this mobilization 589 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: infrastructure where people are getting their news, where people are 590 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: having like lots of political discourse. What is helping young 591 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: people to understand the world is the discourse on TikTok 592 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: is the trusted messengers that they turn to on TikTok. 593 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: And if you take that away, like they're just going 594 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: to not be as politically engaged. But because TikTok made 595 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: it really easy for them to get politically engaged and 596 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: get politically informed and deep dive into this discourse. Like 597 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: you know, the people keep saying TikTok is this dancing 598 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: out and it's so so wrong because like, fundamentally, it's 599 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: a discourse app It's it's where people are having conversations 600 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: about the world. That's why like stitching was such a 601 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 1: groundbreaking feature, because you could take one video and respond 602 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 1: to it and you get this like built and constructed, 603 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: constant discourse about political and social issues. If you remove that, 604 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, they might still be left leaning and like 605 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: some of them might vote, but they won't be as 606 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: informed on certain issues. They won't necessarily know where to 607 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: or like where to be putting their their energy for 608 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: certain political issues. Like they would just be losing so 609 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 1: much of their infrastructure and that will have severe costs, 610 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: particularly for the Dems. And it's it's really mind blowing 611 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: to me that they don't recognize that. Yeah, I'm just 612 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: I'm completely shocked. I shouldn't be. I shouldn't be. I'm 613 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 1: years into this, I shouldn't be. Well, here's I mean 614 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: big question. Where will Abby Richards go if there's no TikTok? 615 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: Like I think of you as the person who is 616 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: like made a platform, like one of the first people 617 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: who really made a platform from calling out and criticizing 618 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: TikTok and advocating for it to be better. Where do 619 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: you personally see yourself showing up if it's banned here's 620 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: the thing is, Like, on one level, I think I 621 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: experienced some panic where it's like, if I lose my 622 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: platform on TikTok, do I lose my power? Like, you know, 623 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: will I still have work to do? Will people still 624 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: see me as valuable? And then I, after you know, 625 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,919 Speaker 1: a little bit of dwelling in that panic, I got 626 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: over it because it's like, no, I'm privileged. I have 627 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: a lot of like institutional power at this point, like 628 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: I can pivot to other platforms if I want. And fundamentally, 629 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: I think that the deeper we go into a tech dystopia, 630 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: the more job security I actually have, which is dark. 631 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: But I think that was some dark abby. That was 632 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: some dark shit. But I mean you're right right, like 633 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,879 Speaker 1: like you call out TikTok, but really you're calling out 634 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: like our media ecosystem the way that it impacts our democracy, 635 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: Like it's so much more than one platform. Your voice 636 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: is about so much more than one platform. I guess 637 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: I'll put it that way. But that but I agree 638 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: with you that, Like you know, when I started this 639 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: tech podcast, I never knew the Like I remember thinking like, 640 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: oh maybe I'll what if I run out of content? 641 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: What if I run out of like things to talk about. No, 642 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: I sure never will, never ever will. I mean my 643 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: goal is to eventually put myself out of a job. 644 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: I would really like if I could work hard enough 645 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: and eradicate all of the misinformation I hate speech online 646 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: and then one day I get to retire and I 647 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: don't need to do this job anymore. I don't see 648 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: that happening. So I think, you know, if TikTok is banned, 649 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: I will go to other platforms. I will build out 650 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: my presence on other platforms too. I'm far more concerned about, 651 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: like the people who don't have the institutional backing and 652 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: who don't have power outside of their TikTok presence, Like 653 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: they will have their lives much more uprooted than I 654 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: think I will. We are in such uncharted waters. Yeah, no, 655 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: truly what happens to the creators like because Congress I 656 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: saw I was one one congressman, like went on Politico 657 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: with like, No, they'll be able to switch to a 658 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: different platform, as if they haven't spent last like two 659 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: three four years building a platform, so now they can 660 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: do brand deals or now they can make money from 661 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: the creator fundum and now oh no, they can just 662 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,479 Speaker 1: start over, It'll be fine. Who cares like it's it's 663 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: do you know how long that takes? Like, yeah, it's 664 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: but again, it's it's showing that the people who are 665 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: meant to be legislating this is don't have a real 666 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: realistic understanding of what of like what they're actually talking about, 667 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 1: and when they make suggestions like that, it's like, have 668 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: you have you taken a step back to ask what 669 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: that actually looks like in practice? Yeah? I don't think 670 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,720 Speaker 1: that they have. I will say, where there are marginalized 671 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: creators on a platform facing some kind of something that 672 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 1: they don't like, there's always really good pushback, and so 673 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: scrolling the platform after those hearings got to give it 674 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 1: up to the creators who are using their strengths creating 675 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,399 Speaker 1: good content to educate people on those hearings and sort 676 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: of what they thought about them. I've seen such hilarious 677 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: TikTok's coming out of that. I saw one creator who 678 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: was pretending to be a lawmaker in Congress. It was like, 679 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,439 Speaker 1: I want to know and my wife wants to know why. 680 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: Every time I opened TikTok, all I see is these 681 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: big breasted women that's making fun of like how silly 682 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: some of their questions were. So that's something I'll always 683 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: have faith in is marginalized creators being able to use 684 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: social media platforms to poke fun at legislators and to 685 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: spotlight and educate folks on something that they do not like. Oh, 686 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,800 Speaker 1: one hundred percent, the TikTok's coming out of this have 687 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: been phenomenal. I was like getting a lot of comfort 688 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: last night and just seeing the conversations that were being had. 689 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,800 Speaker 1: Even did you say, see any of the true edits 690 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: the edits of the CEO people were making like spicy 691 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: edits of him, save TikTok. Uh, those were great. There 692 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: are a lot of um I want to see if 693 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: I can pull. I know. I just screenshotted one this 694 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: morning that was giving me life. Oh it was the 695 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 1: cap cut meme of Pedro Pascal eating a cracker sandwich 696 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: and then it says, knee watching the CEO of TikTok 697 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: defend the American people and our rights from the literal 698 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: US government, all while they mispronounced his name, have no 699 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: knowledge about how Wi fi works, and are saying they 700 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: are doing it for the children. When there was yet 701 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: another school shooting that I didn't see on the news, 702 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: but I and see reported on TikTok. Doesn't that really 703 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: say at all? That does that sums it up? Doesn't It? 704 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: So like TikTok is reading this stuff for shit. But 705 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: like the rest of the internet, I don't know so much. 706 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 1: Because there was also that study that came out or 707 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: I don't know it was a study, it was a report. 708 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: Well I want to say, no, I don't even remember 709 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,760 Speaker 1: which which day's organization ran it. That was the biggest 710 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: determining factor whether or not you support the TikTok band 711 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: is whether or not you use TikTok. Yeah, so there 712 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: you go. It's like people who don't who like don't 713 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: have direct familiarity with the issue, are the ones who 714 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: are in favor of an outright band. Yeah, they're much 715 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: It's much more. It is much easier to convince people 716 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,439 Speaker 1: who are not even using the app that the app 717 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: is dangerous because there they are not exposed to it. 718 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: They don't understand how it actually works. It's much easier 719 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: to fearmonger about something that you're unfamiliar with. It's much 720 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: easier to hijack people's feelings of fear distrust if they 721 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: don't even know the other group that they're dealing with. 722 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: If if they're completely unfamiliar with the topic, then you 723 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,240 Speaker 1: can just push like fearmongering on them. But the people 724 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,919 Speaker 1: on TikTok who have their own experience was with it, 725 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, can read that as bullshit. Yeah, totally in 726 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: favor of some comprehensive sweeping data privacy legislation that would 727 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: absolutely affect TikTok. Let's do that from a place of 728 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: reason and you know, national security of the American people, Like, 729 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: if we actually cared about that, let's go write that legislation. 730 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,720 Speaker 1: In the end, TikTok and it's part in our larger 731 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: digital media ecosystem is huge. So a potential band would 732 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,760 Speaker 1: have major consequences, not just for the millions of people 733 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: who use it, but for the way that information and 734 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 1: discourse is spread. Oh, this was cut from my Newsweek article, 735 00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: but it was good. It's so like, I'm a member 736 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 1: of this coalition of TikTok members, or I'm a member 737 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: of this coalition of Tiktoker's TikTok influencers with the coalition 738 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: has over five hundred members and collectively they have over 739 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: five hundred million followers, and to put that in perspective, 740 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: I believe that that is more than the collective monthly 741 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,800 Speaker 1: viewership of like Foxy and n AN MSNBC, which is 742 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 1: about five million, So not just more, it's like one 743 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 1: hundred times more than their monthly viewership, and that's just 744 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: like their following count. But I thought that that was 745 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, really, I thought that that was a good 746 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: way to highlight just how vast this infrastructure it is, 747 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: and that we're not talking about cutting off like a 748 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: couple million people or like, you know, a handful of people. 749 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: Like we're talking about dismantling in a communications infrastructure that 750 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: is so vast that it is like literally hundreds of 751 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,840 Speaker 1: times the reach of the biggest news networks that we 752 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: can think of. That is not a decision that we 753 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: should be taking lately. I'm so glad you've added that. 754 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: I do think that for people who don't use TikTok, 755 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,560 Speaker 1: they probably it's probably easy to think of it as 756 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: like it's like that arrested development line, like it's a 757 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: it's a TikTok Michael, how many users? Could there be? 758 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: A hundred? Like they might not necessarily know the gravity 759 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: of the of the way that it functions as a 760 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: communications platform and it's role in our larger ecosystem of 761 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: digital communications, which is vast. It's huge, it's huge, and 762 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: people don't understand that it's it's not a dancing app, 763 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: and that it is in fact an information app that 764 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 1: is a discourse app, and that there is like so 765 00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: much existing infrastructure which has been built over the course 766 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 1: of the last few years to mobilize people, particularly for 767 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: progressive causes, and if you take that away, we're going 768 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 1: to have to rebuild it. Rebuilding takes time. Rebuilding is 769 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: a way of keeping people down right, Like, the reason 770 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 1: why legacy news institutions are so powerful is that they 771 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: don't have to rebuild every four to five years. It's 772 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: like you build power by you know, having stability in 773 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: your institution. And if you take all of these young 774 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: people who have finally found a bit of power, and 775 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: particularly marginalized young people who have finally found a bit 776 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: of power, and then you force them to rebuild again, 777 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: you're removing all of their access to power. And like, 778 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,359 Speaker 1: sure they'll get it back in a few years, but 779 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: a lot can happen in a few years. Yeah, And 780 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be And I guess it would be to 781 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: have to force these folks to have to rebuild for 782 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: something that didn't even really achieve much right, for something 783 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 1: that like didn't even really achieve much meaningful action in 784 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,719 Speaker 1: terms of protecting digital national security. That is like to me, 785 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 1: it's like the real cruelty of it. I guess, yeah. 786 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 1: I mean for it to be done for such a 787 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:11,720 Speaker 1: pointless cause, for which there is no evidence of harm 788 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: in the first place, is deeply unsettling to be like, 789 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, really challenging our First Amendment rights in the 790 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: way that they are threatening to with zero evidence. Again, 791 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,920 Speaker 1: we have more evidence against Facebook than we do against TikTok, 792 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: and to ban TikTok. I mean, it's it's such a 793 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: concerning choice for the First Amendment. And like usually I'm 794 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: on the missinfoside of like having to be like, well, 795 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, free speech is not free reach, but like 796 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: right now it's like, yes, no, free speech does matter, 797 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: and like this is a First Amendment issue. Yeah, this 798 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 1: is the government regulating of like how many times have 799 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: you been in the comments actual being like, well, this 800 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,479 Speaker 1: isn't the government regulating something. It's a private platform lating something. 801 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,560 Speaker 1: So it's a little bit different. Maybe don't evoke the 802 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,440 Speaker 1: First Amendment. This is actually the government regulating something. So 803 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,360 Speaker 1: like all those free speech people like like mobilized, like 804 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,200 Speaker 1: let's hear from you. I know, it's like so quiet 805 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 1: from the free speech ab solutionists right now. Like they 806 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: cared a lot when TikTok was censoring medical misinformation that 807 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 1: TikTok had every right to be to be removing. But 808 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: if the government is actually coming for a platform where 809 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,839 Speaker 1: one hundred million, one hundred and fifty million people practice 810 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,279 Speaker 1: the utilization of their voices, that seems like a free 811 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,400 Speaker 1: speech issue to me, that seems like a challenge on 812 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: our First Amendment rights. Really scary one too. I was like, yeah, 813 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:56,720 Speaker 1: watching the hearing was quite scary to me. What scared 814 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: you about it? I think that there was this strange 815 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,400 Speaker 1: gentlement of like, okay, I did I when I learned 816 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,320 Speaker 1: about the red Skier in history class, I didn't anticipate 817 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:13,720 Speaker 1: living through another one that was like weird to watch 818 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: in real time. I was like, oh, I thought that 819 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: was like a historical event. I thought we didn't do 820 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,600 Speaker 1: that again. So it had that element to it where 821 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: they were like asking the CEO of TikTok, who I 822 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,800 Speaker 1: don't know his personal finances, but if he's not a billionaire, 823 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,400 Speaker 1: he is a multimillionaire. Just asking him if he's a 824 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: communist had a wild tone to it, but on a 825 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: much deeper level, the lengths that they will go to 826 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 1: to take away our free speech in the name of 827 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 1: just xenophobia, that was really scary to me. I don't 828 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: think that that symbolized like massive steps towards a more 829 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: progressive worlds. That felt like taking steps backwards towards, you know, 830 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,400 Speaker 1: stricter borders and more nationalism and stricter laws, and just 831 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: creating this divide between the West and the East, and 832 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:29,880 Speaker 1: just trying to reimpose this iron curtain of sorts, this 833 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 1: digital iron curtain, Like that felt really dark to me. 834 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:40,399 Speaker 1: I mean, when you put it that way, yeah, it's 835 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 1: I hadn't picked up on that vibe, but now that 836 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,919 Speaker 1: you say it, it is scary, and I don't think 837 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,200 Speaker 1: it's I don't think I don't think it's discourse that 838 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: leads us to a more just, progressive world. It seems 839 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: like it leads us someplace else. Yeah, it seems like 840 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,440 Speaker 1: it shuts us down and puts us deeper into like 841 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,120 Speaker 1: isolationist thinking, and that's not the type of thinking that 842 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:14,120 Speaker 1: I want to see our worlds practicing. I would like 843 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,839 Speaker 1: to see. You know, the Internet was always promised as 844 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 1: this thing that would like bring global citizens together. I 845 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 1: don't believe that we are in any sort of like 846 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 1: technological utopia or that the Internet is perfect, but I 847 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 1: do see the internet's capacity for connection and connection with 848 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: people that you would otherwise never have spoken to or 849 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,680 Speaker 1: heard their stories. So earlier, you were talking about like 850 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 1: seeing women in Haran protesting and how you feel like 851 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have been exposed to that without TikTok. And 852 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 1: I worry that if we continue down this path of 853 00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:01,280 Speaker 1: implementing these strict bands and like insisting that we control 854 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,360 Speaker 1: all of the social media platforms that like, it'll continue 855 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,560 Speaker 1: to cut us off. And that's not what I want 856 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:14,279 Speaker 1: to see here fucking here, Abby, Thank you so much 857 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,320 Speaker 1: for being here. This was informative. I'm really glad everyone 858 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:18,920 Speaker 1: should read your news week piece. We're gonna put it 859 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,239 Speaker 1: in the show notes. But yeah, this was great. I 860 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 1: feel like I learned a lot. I'm glad that you 861 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,480 Speaker 1: let me come. Rand I wrote the piece and I 862 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,360 Speaker 1: was like, I know who I need to send this. Oh, 863 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,640 Speaker 1: you have an open invite anytime you're like, I'm annoyed 864 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,759 Speaker 1: about this, you've an open invite. Well, you know, I 865 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,920 Speaker 1: love coming on your show. It's always fun. You're like 866 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,680 Speaker 1: the one of the first ever podcasts that I did, 867 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 1: and you were so nice to me. Oh my god, 868 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,839 Speaker 1: you I remember it very clearly. You were such a pro. 869 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:44,800 Speaker 1: I had no idea what I was doing. It was 870 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,760 Speaker 1: all I was faking it. Now you've got the mic, 871 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: you've got the pop filter. Look at you. Now I 872 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 1: know what we're doing. I know that I can. Like 873 00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,359 Speaker 1: when I first started, I didn't know that I could 874 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,439 Speaker 1: like restart a sentence when I like the first time 875 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: I ever did podcast, so the pressure was way higher. 876 00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,759 Speaker 1: But now I know I can read. I love a restart. 877 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,960 Speaker 1: I restart like I catch myself doing it in casual 878 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:11,799 Speaker 1: conversation where I'm like, Nope, no one's gonna come in 879 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:16,080 Speaker 1: and clean this up. But you know, I feel like 880 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,840 Speaker 1: there's no editor right now. Still, sometimes it's good to 881 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,560 Speaker 1: just restart because you're like, you know what, that sentence 882 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,440 Speaker 1: had a false it was a faulty start, and it 883 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,520 Speaker 1: doesn't even matter if from being recorded, it will make 884 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,360 Speaker 1: more sense if you just let me scratch it and 885 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: start over again. If you're looking for ways to support 886 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,840 Speaker 1: the show, check out our merchstore at tangodi dot com 887 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,520 Speaker 1: slash Store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, 888 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,560 Speaker 1: or just want to say hi, You can reach us 889 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,960 Speaker 1: at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find 890 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,839 Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are 891 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,000 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridgetad. 892 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative, edited by 893 00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tarry Harrison 894 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,560 Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our 895 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,600 Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want 896 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. 897 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 898 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,719 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.