WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Glorious Hermit Crab, Part 2 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.200 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:10.840 name is Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so of course 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:13.920 we have a vault episode for you. This is going 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.920 to be The Glorious Hermit Crab Part two, which originally 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.680 published one nine, twenty twenty four. Let's dive right. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:26.239 In Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:27.880 of iHeartRadio. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:35.560 Hey a you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.360 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.120 we are back with part two in our series on 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.519 hermit crabs. Now a rob on a recent vacation, you 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.680 got to oversee the fields of hermit crabs as they 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:53.199 crawl about doing their busy, busy business, and so you 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:55.720 got very into the idea of talking about these animals. 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.400 And it turns out there is way more interesting stuff 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.760 to say about hermit crabs then you might think. There's 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.120 a lot of interesting research on them. They kind of 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.959 has implications beyond the hermit crab just as an animal 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.560 in itself, and can even inform us maybe about human 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.840 economics and sociology and strange corners of knowledge like that. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:18.280 Yeah, so definitely go back and listen to the previous 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.319 episode if you did not already, because we'll touch on 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:24.600 the basics of what hermit crabs are and what they 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:28.760 are not. For example, they are not considered true crabs, 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:31.640 but I mean in our hearts they're true crabs, but 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:33.959 technically speaking, not true crabs. 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.240 There's no moral implication there, it's just a different taxonomic divisions. 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:43.200 So the so called true crabs are decapod crustaceans, ten 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:49.120 footed crusty animals in the info order Brachyura. These hermit 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.600 crabs belong to a cousin infraorder called Animura a n 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.680 O m a Animura, which are not technically true crabs, 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.560 but they are also decapod Crustaceans also have ten legs, 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.400 five pairs of legs, generally five antennae, though in the 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.560 animurans often even though they have five pairs of legs, 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.600 often like the last pair of legs will will be 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.200 diminished or hidden in some ways, so they can often 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.600 look like they have eight legs even though they do 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.240 really have ten. Maybe the last pair is kind of 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.720 tucked in somewhere, and that's certainly the case in hermit 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:29.000 crabs because, of course, the really characteristic thing about most 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.239 of the eight hundred plus species of hermit crabs is 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:38.919 that they are specially evolved anatomically and behaviorally to depend 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.880 on shelter, most often a type of mobile shelter, such 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.840 as the abandoned shell of another animal, most often a 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.040 gasterpod of some kind. And in the last episode we 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.480 talked a lot about hermit crabs dependence on in fierce 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.800 competition for these shells that they use as their mobile shelters. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:05.800 Try they have this unique relationship with their environment, not 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:10.320 only scavenging, certainly generally with hermit crabs, you have the 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.640 scavenging of old shells, particularly snale all the sclls, that 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.160 sort of thing. And then as we discussed with terrestrial 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.000 hermit crabs, which is a minority of hermit crab species, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:26.480 you will see not only the acquisition of these discarded shells, 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:31.320 but then the alteration of these shells to make something 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.800 that is more in line and more with what the 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:38.280 crab want wants, and also makes it more economic, like 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.120 from an energy standpoint for the crabs. So there are 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.280 all these fabulous ins and outs without even getting to 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.960 the point of like comparing the competition for hermit crab 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.200 shells to say the human housing market. 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.320 Now, I thought it would be a good place to 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:58.400 start today to talk about some alternatives to snail shells 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.119 in the hermit crab shell world. So, as we talked 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.880 about last time, hermit crabs do most often look for 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:10.760 gastropod shells as their mobile shelters. These shells originally belonged 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:15.840 to snails, periwinkles, whelks, animals of that sort, and these 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:20.320 original animals died and left the shells behind for crabs 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.760 to take up and in some cases remodel to their specifications. 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.320 There is, though I don't know if I've ever heard 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.000 this before, I was reading online that there is apparently 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.640 sort of a myth or an urban legend that hermit 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.719 crabs have to kill the snails to take their shells 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.960 from them, and that does not appear to be true. 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:43.640 Hermit crabs appear to scavin shells from snails that died 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.720 for other reasons. That died either you were killed by 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.279 in some cases other snails, predatory other snails, or just 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.920 died for whatever reason. A shell is empty now, and 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.320 in some cases a hermit crab can take it up 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.599 and added into the hermit crab shell economy. 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.600 Yeah, the type competition is not for shells currently occupied 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:09.440 by snails. The competition among terrestrial hermit crabs is for 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.920 the shells occupied by other hermit crabs. 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.400 So while across this whole family of animals, snail shells 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:20.039 are the most popular for mobile shelter, there are some 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.560 examples of hermit crabs that use other types of objects 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:28.000 and in some cases even living organisms for shelter. So 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.080 on the less exciting end, some species make their homes 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.320 in plant structures, maybe hollow pieces of bamboo or coconut shells, 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.920 other plant matter like that. But there are also these 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:45.040 interesting relationships between hermit crabs and for example, sea anemones. 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:47.039 Rob I know you have something in that on that 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.560 you're going to get into in a bit, but first 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:54.360 I wanted to talk about coral and sponges. So there 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.800 is a paper that was published in Plus one in 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:03.680 twenty seventeen by Momoko Igawa and Makoto Kato called a 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:09.039 new species of hermit crab Diogenes headerop sam coola replaces 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:14.400 a mutualistic sepunculin in a walking coral symbiosis. Again, this 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.400 was the year twenty seventeen, and shout out I came 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.840 across this finding because of an article in the Conversation 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.640 I found by Sarah Minett which is a summary of 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:28.080 this finding. So Rob I included some images of this 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.120 hermit crab with its natural with its coral companion. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:33.400 Here. 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:38.279 This is Diogenes headerop sam Coola, and I would say 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.680 it's one of the weirder looking ones we've found. It 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.560 does look like a hermit crab in the front, but 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.920 with a huge kind of foot shaped mass of pink 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.559 bar soap hanging off its back. So the hermit crab 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.200 itself is very is a bright red and white sort 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.839 of candy cane color scheme, with very tall eye stalks 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.400 in these long featherlike in So this is a marine 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.720 species of hermit crab. And then I've got another picture 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:07.920 for you to see here, Rob. This is with the 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.520 crab's abdomen exposed, so this is outside of its shelter. 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.920 The abdomen, while the front is very red and white 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.560 and has a crabby appearance, the abdomen looks kind of 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:24.160 like a like a grub. It's like a translucent whiteworm. 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.120 So this paper and plus one documents the discovery of 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.280 a hermit crab species that takes up mobile shelter in 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:36.440 what are known as solitary corals or sometimes walking corals. 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.520 This species of hermit crab was found in southern Japan 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:45.000 by scientists affiliated with Kyoto University. Again, the new species 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:50.480 name is Diogenes heteropsamic cola, and it's a very tiny crab. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.960 It's just a few millimeters in length. So you might 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:58.520 wonder why select a chunk of living coral as shelter 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.600 instead of the shells favored by the vast majority of 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:07.600 hermit crabs. Well, apparently one major advantage for the crab 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.080 is the very fact that the coral is living and 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:16.720 thus structurally dynamic. So most hermit crabs have to engage 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.840 in this obsessive, ongoing survey of the housing market, trading 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.760 up for bigger shells as they grow, which as we know, 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:28.320 can involve aggressive competition. This is because the size of 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.240 each gastropod shell is basically fixed. I mean, in some cases, 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.040 in some species they might do some interior remodeling, but 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.240 the overall dimensions of the shell are not going to 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.240 change much. This species, when it lives inside a wad 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.400 of living coral, does not have this problem. It has 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.800 found a forever home because the cavity occupied in the 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:54.840 living coral can actually grow along with the crab. Another 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.920 thing mentioned in this article is that coral provides active defenses. 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.720 Whereas a dead gas podshell is a type of armor, 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.320 it provides a solid barrier against predators. The corals can 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:07.240 actually sting. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.440 That's right, So you have this added level of like 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:15.559 chemical weapon and like living self repair armor. It's just 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:20.040 a fabulous upgrade exactly. And apparently it is not only 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.880 the hermit crab that benefits from the symbiotic relationship. The 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.559 coral benefits as well, and that would make this an 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.200 example of the symbiosis we call mutualism. If only the 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.280 crab benefited and the coral was not affected either way, 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.719 it would be what is called commensalism. But this is 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:40.040 mutualism because they both get a benefit. So what is 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:41.240 the benefit. 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.120 For the coral. It appears to be that the hermit 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.320 crab gives the coral the benefit of mobility. So the 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:53.760 coral in question is of the genus Heteropsamia, and this 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.960 is not the kind of coral that forms into large 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.520 structured reefs. So this is a solitary coral, or again 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.600 sometimes called a walking coral rab. I attached some pictures 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.600 of this coral for you to look at in its 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.719 normal form, just sitting there on the ocean floor. It 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.120 looks kind of like a like a blob. With some 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.360 you can see the polyp cups and the tentacles on top. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.320 These corals can be found in small masses, usually about 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.840 two to three centimeters in diameter, sitting on flat sandy seafloors, 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.480 and their polyp cups and feeding tentacles are positioned facing 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.560 up into the water. One danger for an organism like 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.400 this is that it has to be positioned correctly in 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.640 order to survive. But the coral mass is not ambulatory. 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.520 It can't walk around, so imagine being sort of a 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.360 small rock with a mouth and I guess kind of 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:50.199 finger teeth. Alone on the seafloor, it is at risk 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.240 of either being buried by sediment or being knocked over 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.120 and left upside down, both of which could be a 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.160 death sentence for the coral. So heaterop sand has evolved 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.400 a relationship with another organism, not the hermit crab. This 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.320 is an organism known as a cepunculate worm. This is 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.920 a small worm that lives in a cavity on the 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.600 underside of the coral, and it carries the coral around 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.400 with it when it crawls along the bottom. It seems 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.840 that in some cases, specifically in areas around the Amami Islands, 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.680 which are islands that they're part of Japan but way 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.600 south of the main Japanese islands, in these cases, the 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.440 hermit crabs have taken over the role that was once 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.600 played by the worms in this relationship. So how would 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.560 this swap occur between, you know, going from the coral 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.800 partnering with the worm to the coral partnering with the 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.360 hermit crab, Because as you know, a lot of times 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.640 these these tight symbiotic relationships are very sort of finely 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:56.000 tuned by evolution. Like they it would not usually be 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.680 easy to just swap one animal in for another. Well, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.839 the author of this feature I was reading interviewed the 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.800 lead author of the paper, Momoko Igawa, and she explained 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:13.079 that the normal process of establishing a relationship between a 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.560 coral and a supunculate worm goes like this. So when 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.240 the coral is young, it begins by attaching itself to 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:24.720 a tiny shell and begins to grow around the shell 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:29.080 as it matures and builds its solid base. So the 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:33.479 coral lands on a small shell that is already inhabited 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.079 by a worm. So there's already a relationship between the 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.040 worm and the inanimate shell. The worm is using the 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.320 shell for shelter, and then somehow, you know, from the 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.200 worm's point of view, the shell just suddenly it keeps 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.920 getting bigger, and like it grows all around it. And 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.160 this is the coral taking up residence on the shell 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.160 and growing around it, forming a sort of perfect little 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.640 cavity for the worm to hide in. And according to 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:04.320 a GOPA, it seems likely that a similar process led 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.719 to hermit crabs inhabiting the corals, and in the end 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.480 the benefits that they would trade off are similar. So 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.120 the mobility of the crab protects the coral from being 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.520 buried in sand or stuck upside down, and the coral 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.640 helps protect the crab from predators. 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.880 Yeah, this is fascinating. Again. It just kind of takes 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.080 the basic concept of the hermit crab that I think 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.040 most people are familiar with to some degree and just 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:33.960 takes it into like weird areas. And indeed, I have 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.120 another example here to discuss, and this is where we 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:41.520 get into deep sea hermit crabs, and I think, you know, 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:46.480 if you've ever heard us talk about deep sea biology before, 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.959 you know, the things can get weird down there. And 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:54.400 so I want to talk about some of these hermit 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.200 crabs from the family Parapatgurity. By the way, as long 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.880 as we're talking about here, you know, did we stop 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:05.400 me if we already talked about this, but did we 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.720 talk about the family of hermit crabs, Diogenidae being named 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.560 after Diogenes. 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.600 The Oh, yeah, Diogenes the Cynic. 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.440 Yeah, who of course lived in a tub according to 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:19.280 the story. 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.800 So right, So yeah, Diogenes the Cynic. He was an 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:26.560 ancient Greek philosopher who supposedly would live in i think 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.680 the marketplace of Athens, just in a big ceramic jar. 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:31.720 So yeah. 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.960 And as a cynic philosopher, his big thing was, you 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.040 know that you one should not act against their nature 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.040 according to the expectations of others. So he was he 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.680 was very you know, against society's rules and stuff. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.200 Yeah, is that in a way kind of a perfect 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.040 model for us to look to and in naming the 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:57.000 hermit crabs. So anyway, we're talking about deep sea hermit crabs, here, 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.520 and in particular one that wears not a deceased mollusk, 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.280 but the living body of a c anenemy, as Mary 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.560 Kay Wixton described for you know AA back in twenty fifteen. 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:12.600 Young crabs of this particular type start out inhabiting a 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.040 Pilford shell, you know, a typical you know, snail shell 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.880 or what have you. But then the cea, anemony of 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:25.680 the family hor Methadaa, settles on the shell, overgrows it, 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:31.560 and then ultimately dissolves that shell to become the living 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.520 housing of the crab. And as much with the example 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.160 we were talking about earlier with the coral, grows and 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.760 expands with the hermit crab. So now this is indeed 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.800 another example of a forever home of you know, a 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.080 bio armor that will grow with the crab. Brilliant. Now 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.960 the enemity gains mobility this way, you know, the hermit 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.960 crab is like, hey, you stick with me, baby, I'll 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.880 show you the world. And so the crab also, as 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.880 with the coral example, gains chemical protection from predators, specifically 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:06.440 protection against octopods and this species. The species in this 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.680 particular writeup is not specified or was perhaps not known 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.160 at the time. I get to think. One of the 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.000 exciting things about hermit crabs, particularly marine hermit crabs, is 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.640 we keep discovering new species and we keep making new 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.880 discoveries about how they live their strange lives in the ocean, 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.800 especially the deep ocean. Now, according to a twenty twenty 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:30.400 study by gusmo at All published in Molecular Phylogenetics, there 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.720 are some cases where these deep water hermit crabs simply 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:37.200 carry around protective cea anemies on their intact shells, and 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.600 in these cases especially, the crab actually selects and places 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.680 the organisms on its own shell, goes out shopping, decides 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.200 which ones it wants, and places them there. However, the 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:53.840 author stresses that quote c aneminies can also mount shells 0:16:53.920 --> 0:17:00.000 unaided triggered by mollusk derived substances in periostrasum of the show. 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.240 So the exact mutualistic relationship differs depending on the species 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:08.480 of the hermit crab. But it's pretty amazing here the 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.080 idea that like, in some cases the hermit crab is shopping, 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:13.680 in other cases it is sought out. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.160 Oh, I want more detail on exactly what the shopping 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.800 is like. Does the crab like crawl along and sort 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.760 of feel around the anemone, like pick it up and 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.680 put it on there. Like what is the selection process? 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.720 Like? Yeah, I mean they're very very choosy, as we see, 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.399 even just with their selection of snail shells and whatnot. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.560 I'm terrestrial hermit crabs. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.600 Oh that's true. Yeah, the selection of the gastropodshell involves 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.080 an awful lot of feeling. Usually, you know, it's not 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.679 just like looking at it. They go and they feel 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.080 all over it. They turn it around, they climb inside 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.120 it and try it out, and sometimes decide they don't 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.560 want it. I mean, that's the whole thing. Like, sometimes 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.880 they do try it out and decide and that's not right, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:53.240 and they go back to the old one. 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.040 And then sometimes is the case with the shells, and 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.400 might be the case with cnemonies as well, is that 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.760 they are also making choices that their survival depends upon. 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.040 So sometimes they will go with a shell that they 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.440 don't like all that much, or they is not their 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.880 first choice or even their second choice, but they need 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.360 to survive until they can get something better. And so yeah, 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.920 perhaps that's the case here as well. But again, researchers 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:23.400 are still making fantastic discoveries regarding deep water hermes. For example, 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.440 a twenty twenty two team from the University of Tokyo 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:31.920 discovered a new species of anemone. This is Stylobatis calcifer, 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.159 named after the fire demon Calcifer from the novel and 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.560 studio Ghibli film Howl's Moving Castle. This is the one 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.000 that's in the Disney dub is voiced by Billy Crystal. 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.280 Okay, yeah, wait, this is the it's like for cooking 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.119 the food, right they like, yes, cook, they're cooking bacon 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.120 and eggs and stuff in the pan over this boy. 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.160 Yeah yeah, yeah, we're very fun character. Great movie. Yeah, 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:03.000 and inspired inspired the name for the anemone, and it 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.600 lives on the shells of a particular hermit crab species. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.040 And I included an image of this for you here, Joe. Now, 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.480 there may be some lighting in the image I provided, 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.880 but it still looks beautiful. It's like this. It does 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.760 look very fiery. It looks like a creature that is 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.000 composed of or living within flame. 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.119 Oh yeah, it's beautiful And I can see why you 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.800 might call it that given the animation style of that 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.359 in house Moving Castle, like the way the flame just 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.800 kind of bobs and undulate. It's almost like the way 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:37.879 you might see the I don't know, flesh of a 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.159 jellyfish moving underwater or something. And I can imagine that 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:46.520 if you see this anemony in motion, it probably looks 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:47.320 something like that. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.800 Yeah, yeah, it's pretty great. If you want to find 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.480 some of these images for yourself, there was a twenty 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:57.040 twenty two Mongbay article by Liz Kimbro that you can 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.320 look up, and that's one of the sources I was 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:11.399 looking at for this section of the episode. Now, on 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.080 the subject of deep sea hermit crabs, we should also 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.280 talk about hydrothermal vent environments. We've talked about hydrothermal vents 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.200 plenty of times on the show before. These are deep 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:25.600 sea seabed fissures that release geothermically heated water that can 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:30.159 result in very biologically active oases in the deep ocean 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:34.760 that provide home to many different unique species of organism. Now, 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.040 one of the more famous vent dwellers is the Kiwa 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:42.280 Ti Larry or Hoff crab, which is actually a squat lobster. 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:44.240 And this is not a hermit crab, but it is 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.639 kin to hermit crabs. It's not a quote unquote true crab. 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:51.479 But in two thousand and four researchers discovered the first 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:56.320 known hermit crab to recide at a hydrothermal vent. This 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:03.359 one was dubbed Paraggio pageias Vento Lattice, and it was 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.520 discovered in the waters off Taiwan. And this was I 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.919 was thaking about this in a paper by Raphael la Matre, 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.720 then in a twenty eleven paper by kome At All 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.600 these hermit crabs were found elsewhere on the Nico Seamount. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.840 This is a submarine volcano in like southern Japanese waters. Now, 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.480 I was mentioning some of this to my wife as 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:28.080 I was researching it, and when I brought up the 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.720 idea of hydrozermal vent crabs, her question was where do 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.679 they get their shells? Do they have shells? And I 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:35.879 hadn't really thought about this, but yeah, it does seem 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:41.080 that while this species prefers gastropod shells, they would prefer 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:45.920 to have standard like snail shells. They are indeed scarce 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.879 in these habitats, these hydrothermal vents, so they'll end up 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.120 having to use something else. It's not their first choice, 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.160 but they will use the empty tubes of the Sibo 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:01.320 glennid worm. This is a like tube worm, and they 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.720 will use these discarded empty tubes for their shell if 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.800 they cannot get an actual gastropod shell. Ah. 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.879 Yeah, So I had read some unspecified references to hermit 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:16.359 crabs using worm tubes as mobile shelter, and I wonder 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:19.440 if it might be talking about this or maybe related 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.399 animals that use other worm tubes as well. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.120 Yeah, yeah, it's pretty fascinating. I do want to point 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:28.680 out this is not an obligate hydrothermal vent dweller, though. 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.520 You do have various organisms that have to have that 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:34.720 hydrothermal vent environment, and it is something that very much 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:39.320 defines them. These creatures apparently can live beyond the hydrothermal vents, 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:44.360 but have been observed to reside there. So see anemones, 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:53.240 coral tubeworm, discarded tubworm tubes. So many different things can 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:55.480 become housing for a hermit. 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:59.720 Crab thinking outside the snail shell. Yes, and of course 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.480 all these things we're talking about are things that you 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.800 would expect. They're like an adapted relationship in some way, 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.320 things you would expect to see with some regularity in nature. 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.280 You can find weird isolated examples of hermit crabs using 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.480 all kinds of stuff as a temporary shelter if they 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:17.320 are in a jam. 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:21.360 That's right, we mentioned like the intense competition for shells 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:25.160 and the and the cascading events that will occur when 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.639 a conflict between hermit crabs over a shell resolves and 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:33.560 then somebody's left out. Usually it's the whichever crab lost 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:38.160 in the combat now has no shell. And in those cases, 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:40.840 again it's survival is on the line, so it may 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:43.919 use something like even like a discarded pop top I 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:47.080 saw referenced in one article. Doesn't mean it's happy about it, 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:50.400 but it will use it for the time being. Now 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:53.600 there's another wrinkle to this whole you know, not true 0:23:53.600 --> 0:24:00.280 crabs story, because there's another cousin to true crabs, as 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:02.000 of course, the king crab. I think a lot of 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:04.520 you've heard of the king crab. Sometimes it winds up 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.560 on the menu. Right. There are over one hundred species 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:10.320 of king crabs, and while we don't know for certain, 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:15.159 it is widely hypothesized that king crabs derived from hermit 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:18.919 crab ancestors. This brings us once more to the topic 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:24.080 of carcinization. This is convergent evolution in which non crab 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:28.080 crustaceans evolve crab like bodies. And in this case we're 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:31.359 specifically dealing with what's referred to as the hermit to 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:35.840 king hypothesis, which we should stress is not universally accepted, 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.400 but it does seem to be the current scientific consensus, 0:24:40.080 --> 0:24:44.560 though again again not everyone agrees though, but thankfully this 0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:46.960 is not one of those scientific consensus issues that has 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:49.440 been politicized, though I guess it would be. It would 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:54.480 be maybe amusing if it were, As Noah and Glenner 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:57.560 point out in the Origin of King Crabs. This is 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:03.320 twenty seventeen, published in Zoological Journal of the Lenaean Society. 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:07.640 The hypothesis itself dates back to the nineteenth century and 0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:11.359 has been controversial that long as well. It's not a 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:15.080 new controversy. They signed an eighteen ninety five paper by 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:20.720 French entomologist Eugene Louis Bouvier, who lived eighteen fifty six 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:25.080 or nineteen forty four. This guy studied molus and crustaceans 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:27.879 early in his career, and they summarize that the basic 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:32.840 idea is that quote king crabs are secondarily calcified hermit 0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:37.720 crabs that left the protective gastropod housing and transformed to 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:39.040 a crab like form. 0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:43.040 That is such a strange, wonderful path. If that is 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:45.720 in fact the case of what happened with king crabs, 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:49.720 that you would get what was originally some type of 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:55.800 crustacean ancestor that evolved to have this obligate relationship with 0:25:55.880 --> 0:26:01.720 external shelter, so its backside is the soft, windy, wormy 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.879 little thing that is protected by a shell, and it 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:07.240 makes this I don't know, what would seem to be 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:13.240 a very dramatic and irreversible kind of evolutionary right turn 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:14.879 or left turn, whatever you want to call it, that 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.400 it goes down this weird road of depending on these 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:23.679 external shells, and then part of that family goes it 0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:27.840 back in the other direction, changes course again, abandons the shells, 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.440 and becomes fully hardened on the outside. 0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:33.760 Yeah. I mean, it's one of the crazy things about evolution, 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:38.600 these various changes that occur over time, Like you know, 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:42.520 the different species evolving different forms of wings, you know, 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:47.120 different morphological approaches to the same basic concept, and then 0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:50.840 creatures like flightless birds that just yeah, like I don't 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:54.040 really need to do that anymore I have. It's not necessary, 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:56.240 and it really was. It was a huge pain in 0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:57.399 the butt to do it to begin with. 0:26:57.800 --> 0:26:59.439 Oh, actually, you know what I think would be a 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:04.760 great parallel example is marine mammals. You know, so the 0:27:05.320 --> 0:27:08.400 all terrestrial life comes from what was originally in the sea, 0:27:08.880 --> 0:27:11.880 and these animals came evolved from animals that once lived 0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:16.639 exclusively in the sea. All marine mammals evolved from terrestrial mammals, 0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:20.280 so they were once you know, four footed, quadrupedal mammals 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:24.080 wandering around on land, and they evolved to go back 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:25.760 to full time water life. 0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:29.080 Yeah. So there's like this line from like, oh, thank goodness, 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:31.120 I'm out of here for just a little bit, out 0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:35.199 of the fierce competition of the water. And then you know, 0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:38.560 millions upon millions of years later, something that will become 0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:40.840 an orca goes back in again and says, you know, 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:42.720 I think I got it this time. I think I'm ready. 0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:45.000 I'm going back. And then, of course plenty of things 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:48.160 that don't become orchis that don't they are not success 0:27:48.200 --> 0:27:51.880 stories as well, I suppose. Yeah. So again, the hermit 0:27:51.960 --> 0:27:54.679 to king hypothesis goes back to the nineteenth century and 0:27:54.720 --> 0:28:00.880 Initially the evidence was largely morphological king crabs with thoughtids. 0:28:01.640 --> 0:28:03.680 They don't really look like hermit crabs, certainly not to 0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:07.240 the average crab looker. The body shape is drastically different, 0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:11.320 but a few key details would seem to remain. 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.720 Okay, So you're looking for body features that king crabs 0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:18.240 have in common with hermit crabs, like what would they be? 0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:23.159 All right? So first plan and claw asymmetries. So the 0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:26.240 plan is the abdomen of the crab, and as we've 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:30.000 already pointed out, the hermit crab has a highly asymmetrical 0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:34.720 abdomen that evolved to slide into asymmetrical spiral shells. And 0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:38.520 as we mentioned already, their right pincher is usually larger 0:28:38.560 --> 0:28:40.520 so as to cover the opening of the shell when 0:28:40.520 --> 0:28:42.840 they retreat into it, you know, it becomes the door 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:43.440 for the shell. 0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:46.560 Yeah, though, of course there are multiple There are the 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:50.360 right handed hermit crabs in the left handed hermit crabs, 0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:54.560 so some are reverse. The diogenids actually are the reversed ones, 0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:55.520 the left handed ones. 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:59.760 That's right mouth parts are another one apparently hermits and 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:04.560 can Between hermits and kings there are only minor differences. Also, 0:29:04.800 --> 0:29:09.120 the seta on the grooming legs. One seedyle type, for example, 0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:13.760 is only present in paragrid hermit crabs and king crabs. 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:18.240 This according to a twenty fifteen study published in Acta Zoologica. 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:25.240 Also there's some details in internal organ organization. Also, there 0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:30.240 are various correspondences in the vascular system between kings and hermits. 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:35.000 And then adding to this hypothesis is the observation, of course, 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:38.480 that carcinization may be a thing in general, with crab 0:29:38.680 --> 0:29:43.520 like forms seemingly having evolved multiple times in shallow water habitats. 0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:46.240 So it's just a plan that works. And if you 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:50.120 already have the basic blueprints in place and you can 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:54.320 evolve in the crab shape direction, a lot of animals 0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:56.440 will eventually evolve down that path. 0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:02.040 Yeah, and more recently we have of phylogenetic evidence that 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:05.200 has been presented to back up the hermit to king hypothesis. 0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:09.240 But you know, I think outside of dedicated crab experts, 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:11.800 we also have to throw in that the mere title 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:14.480 of the hypothesis is instantly attractive. You know, it's like 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:19.560 Popper to prince, hermit to king. So it's for at least, 0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:23.000 you know, the average consumer of all this information it's 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:26.680 hard to shake that that the social implications of this, 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.440 I don't know, it's a you know, it makes it 0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:33.040 a little more fun and engaging too, again non scientists, 0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:34.880 and maybe to scientists as well. I mean, it's the 0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:36.760 kind of thing you probably can't help their reference, at 0:30:36.840 --> 0:30:39.640 least in the opening matter for a study or a paper. 0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:43.400 But it's also just a great thing to think about 0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:45.600 if you're ever going out for a nice king crab dinner. 0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:46.280 I mean. 0:30:48.040 --> 0:30:50.960 That this this could well be the descendant of a 0:30:51.080 --> 0:31:04.160 of a hermit crab. So finally, for today's episode, I 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:07.520 wanted to talk a bit more about the shell economy 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:11.760 in hermit crabs that do trade in gastropod shells. So, 0:31:12.040 --> 0:31:14.600 of course, last time we talked about the importance of 0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:18.800 exogenous shells for hermit crabs survival and about this weird 0:31:19.120 --> 0:31:23.960 ordered mass behavior that can emerge from hermit crabs shell exchanges. 0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:29.160 So I was reading an interesting article in Scientific American 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.840 by a researcher named Ivan Chase, who's a professor emeritus 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:39.240 at Stonybrook University, called hermit crabs trade up by exchanging 0:31:39.400 --> 0:31:44.520 shells in q SO. In this article, Chase talks about 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:49.800 how hermit krab research has informed thinking about the sociology 0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:53.640 and economics of a concept that we brought up specifically 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:56.720 when talking about hermit crabs last time, but actually is 0:31:56.760 --> 0:32:00.760 a broader general, just dynamic term, and that term is 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:05.560 a vacancy chain. So Chase's formal definition of a vacancy 0:32:05.640 --> 0:32:10.160 chain goes like this quote an organized method of exchanging 0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:14.480 resources in which every individual benefits by claiming a more 0:32:14.560 --> 0:32:19.520 desirable possession abandoned by another individual. And this can be 0:32:19.560 --> 0:32:24.760 illustrated directly by watching hermit crab behavior. So Chase opens 0:32:24.800 --> 0:32:28.240 the article by telling a story of just some observations 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:31.760 he personally made in a tide pool on Long Island 0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:35.120 in nineteen eighty six where this was an area where 0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:38.520 there were hermit crabs, and he brought in an empty 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:41.120 snail shell and just dropped it in the tide pool, 0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:44.560 and he talks about how he waited a few minutes 0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:47.640 and then finally a little hermit crab comes along. It 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:50.200 checks out the shell, feels it out with its claws, 0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:54.840 you measures it, It does the full walkthrough, and it decides, yes, 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:57.720 I want this new shell. So it trades shells, abandons 0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:00.760 its old shell, and walks away with the new one, 0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:04.840 But it doesn't stop there, because another crab eventually comes along, 0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:08.080 checks out the abandoned shell, decides it likes that one 0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:11.239 better than its current shell, walks away with that. And 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:14.280 then a few minutes later it happens again. Another one 0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:16.800 comes along. This one has a shell that's in really 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:19.760 bad shape. It's like a shell that is not the 0:33:19.800 --> 0:33:22.640 right size as a hole in it, and it likes 0:33:22.680 --> 0:33:26.080 the abandoned shell better than its very dilapidated current shell, 0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:30.920 walks away with the secondary abandoned shell. Now, he never 0:33:30.960 --> 0:33:34.160 mentions if any hermit crab came along to claim the 0:33:35.320 --> 0:33:38.280 shell abandoned by this third animal, But I guess at 0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:41.400 each point it becomes less and less likely because less 0:33:41.440 --> 0:33:45.560 desirable shells are being traded away from And so maybe 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:48.640 you know, there's not a crab in the general area 0:33:48.760 --> 0:33:51.360 that would prefer a shell that is like very small 0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:54.120 and already has a big hole in it. But multiple 0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:57.479 animals here have gotten a shell that was better than 0:33:57.520 --> 0:34:00.680 the one they started with, and so multiple animals are 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:04.160 walking away from this series of trades happy. And so, 0:34:04.280 --> 0:34:08.160 based on this observation, Chase looked into Chase and other 0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:12.279 colleagues in this area looked into questions like what is 0:34:12.360 --> 0:34:15.880 the average number of trades that occur after a vacancy 0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:20.800 first appears, or what starting conditions lead to more trades 0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:24.959 in the subsequent series, and so forth. So Chase did 0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:28.720 research on a species of hermit crab called Pagurus longic 0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:32.880 carpus aka the long wristed hermit crab, which is native 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:35.480 to the east coast of North America, and there are 0:34:35.520 --> 0:34:40.200 a few general findings. First of all, crabs usually traded 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.880 up for larger shells, and this should not be surprising 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:47.040 since part of the reasoning behind shell trading is that 0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:50.880 it allows individual crabs to grow. Crabs grow, of course, 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.360 you know, like other crustaceans, they have to grow through molting, 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:56.120 but when they get bigger, the shell that they have 0:34:56.239 --> 0:34:59.080 currently doesn't get get any bigger, so they have to 0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:02.400 find a bigger shell to inhabit. And of course there 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:05.239 could be other reasons for seeking a shell, such as 0:35:05.239 --> 0:35:08.040 maybe getting a shell in a better condition, but one 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:09.759 of the main ones is you need a bigger one 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:13.759 as you grow. Next, general observation is that the average 0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:17.440 there was a pretty consistent average number of trades in 0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:21.440 vacancy chains, and it was about two point five, it 0:35:21.480 --> 0:35:24.800 was between two and three, and this could vary depending 0:35:24.880 --> 0:35:28.759 on conditions. For example, vacancy chains that started with a 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:33.000 larger empty shell were longer than those that started with 0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:36.040 smaller empty shells. So a big empty shell leads to 0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:40.120 more trades overall. And so the really interesting thing about 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:43.840 a vacancy chain is how even in an environment where 0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:49.000 multiple individuals are competing aggressively for scarce resources, you know 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:51.680 the number of shells is limited, this is a scarce resource. 0:35:52.160 --> 0:35:57.040 A vacancy chain can mean that everybody in the chain wins. 0:35:57.200 --> 0:36:01.360 It's not a single winner take all competent TII, but 0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:06.600 one in which many participants all get an upgrade. So 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:10.360 you could almost view the survival value of the empty 0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:13.600 shell that is placed into the environment at the start 0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:16.799 of the chain, that the value of that shell being 0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:22.359 kind of distributed or averaged across multiple beneficiaries, because it 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:26.520 doesn't only help the first taker who directly occupies that shell, 0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:30.160 but indirectly helps all of the subsequent crabs in the 0:36:30.239 --> 0:36:32.560 chain because they all get a better shell than they 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:36.279 started with. Oh and one thing Chase says in this 0:36:36.400 --> 0:36:40.080 article rob is that our researchers performed similar experiments on 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:43.239 Caribbean land hermit crabs, and I think those were that 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:44.880 was the species you saw on your trip. 0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:47.640 Yep, yep, that was the one. Again, we did not 0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:52.200 get to directly observe competition for shells or the changing 0:36:52.239 --> 0:36:55.279 out of shells, though obviously this was taking place just 0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:58.160 when we were looking the other way, or you know, 0:36:58.200 --> 0:36:59.920 in parts of the island we aren't worn on or 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:03.640 you know, underneath the leaves of the various plants and 0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:06.760 so forth. But at one point, my son and another 0:37:06.920 --> 0:37:08.680 child on the island who had a lot of fun 0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:12.760 like watching the crabs and running around, they did find 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:16.879 a hermit crab that was unhoused. That a naked hermit crab, 0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:20.400 if you will. So I suspect this was the result 0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:21.560 of some sort of competition. 0:37:22.120 --> 0:37:25.800 Mm man, feel bad for that crab. 0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:27.160 They did as well. They were like, we got to 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:29.040 help this guy get a new shell. So I think 0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:31.440 they were like trying to find some from him. But 0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:34.400 you know, in retrospect, it's like, come on, you guys, 0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:36.399 Maybe they were really into it. So maybe they spend 0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:40.080 an hour looking for shells. But hermit crabs do this 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:43.680 non stop. They are always looking for shells. So you 0:37:43.719 --> 0:37:46.640 can imagine the frustration where the hermit crab is like, really, 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:50.080 you guys just started doing this. I've done this my 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.439 whole life, trust me, just let me find it. There's 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:56.440 very little you can do in this situation. I'm not 0:37:56.480 --> 0:37:58.160 going to live in this half a coconut that you 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:02.640 just provided. As nice that they offered, as nice that 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:05.279 they tried. I liked that they were gentle with the 0:38:05.280 --> 0:38:07.919 crabs and looking out for their well being. 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:11.040 But to come back to the idea of vacancy chains 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:15.480 as a concept, another thing Chase mentions that's interesting is 0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:20.400 that researchers have observed two different kinds of vacancy chains 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:25.360 in hermit crabs, synchronous and asynchronous, and these are about 0:38:25.360 --> 0:38:31.000 the relationship of the trade series to time. Asynchronous chains 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:34.120 are the kind that I described a minute ago where like, 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:36.880 you know, he dropped one empty shell and a tidepool, 0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:39.640 one crab came along and found it, made a trade. 0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:42.640 You know, several minutes later, another one comes along makes 0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:46.160 a trade. That is, that is something that occurs with 0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:48.960 like each step in the process having some kind of 0:38:49.040 --> 0:38:52.920 delay in between. Synchronous trades are on the other hand, 0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:55.560 are the kind more like we talked about in the 0:38:55.560 --> 0:39:01.120 previous episode, where the animals actually organized themselves in a 0:39:01.239 --> 0:39:05.600 line by size while they're still in their original shells 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:09.040 and anticipating a trade, and then all suddenly trade at 0:39:09.080 --> 0:39:13.400 the same time. The synchronous trades happen really fast, and 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:18.280 actually Chase describes particular scenarios that can cause these trades 0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:20.640 to arise. I wanted to read briefly from the article 0:39:20.960 --> 0:39:25.040 with one such scenario he describes, so Chase writes quote. 0:39:25.360 --> 0:39:29.080 One of the strangest examples involves a predatory snail that 0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:33.600 attacks other kinds of snails, including some whose shells hermit 0:39:33.640 --> 0:39:38.439 crabs particularly like. As the predatory snail grasps the prey, 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:42.200 snail drills a hole in its shell with a rasp 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:48.320 like tongue and injects digestive enzymes. Nearby, hermit crabs gather around, 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:51.880 following the scent of chemicals released by the injured snail. 0:39:52.320 --> 0:39:55.480 When the predatory snail finally pulls its prey from its 0:39:55.480 --> 0:39:58.359 protective casing, a process that can take as long as 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:02.400 an hour, the nearest dives into the now empty shell. 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:06.799 In turn, another crab immediately snatches the first crab's old 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:10.480 shell and so on. Instead of following the careful inspection 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:13.480 rituals that we observed on Long Island, crabs at the 0:40:13.480 --> 0:40:17.480 scene of a mollusc murder make split second decisions choosing 0:40:17.520 --> 0:40:21.600 new homes based on vision alone. So I thought this 0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:24.160 was kind of interesting that these different conditions can arise. 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:27.680 Where in some cases, animals making trades through the vacancy 0:40:27.760 --> 0:40:32.040 chain have plenty of time to examine what the new 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:34.640 shell they're looking at and make an informed decision about 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:37.879 whether they want to make the trade. Other times there's 0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:40.920 like this immediacy, like all these crabs are gathered around, 0:40:40.960 --> 0:40:45.080 and so crabs are making rapid exchanges, and I have 0:40:45.160 --> 0:40:48.239 to wonder if in cases like that, they're more likely 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:50.640 to make an error and exchange for a shell that 0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:52.799 is actually not as good as they think it is 0:40:52.840 --> 0:40:55.000 at first, or maybe is not even as good as 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:56.160 the shell they abandoned. 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:58.719 Yeah, it's kind of a musical chairs aspect of the 0:40:58.760 --> 0:40:59.879 whole scenario, isn't there. 0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:02.600 So the more hurry there is in the market, the 0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:05.919 less information you can get and the less you're able 0:41:05.960 --> 0:41:07.640 to make sure you're making a good decision. 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:10.880 Yeah, I mean, I guess you see versions of that 0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:14.120 in the human housing market as well, right, yea, when 0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:17.279 competition is really intense, you have people doing things like 0:41:17.360 --> 0:41:20.520 buying houses sight unseen, you know, just getting in there, 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:24.560 making big cash offers and so forth. So yeah, even 0:41:24.600 --> 0:41:27.759 though as we discussed, there are you know, experts who 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:30.319 weigh in and say, well, you really can't go one 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:33.640 to one on this. There's a great deal of nuance 0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:38.000 to human housing market as well as the hermit crab 0:41:38.040 --> 0:41:40.920 competition for shells. But we can't help but compare the 0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:42.640 two and it does seem like there are some interesting 0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:43.359 things that line up. 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:46.479 Oh yeah, yeah, So you wouldn't want to do what 0:41:47.120 --> 0:41:50.279 people sometimes do and just like observe a behavior in 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:53.839 animals and then say, ah, well there is just that's 0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:56.359 what humans do as well. I mean, like you would 0:41:56.400 --> 0:41:59.200 need evidence that that is actually what humans do as well. 0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:03.799 But vacancy chains have been studied in animals other than 0:42:03.800 --> 0:42:08.320 hermit crabs, and they have absolutely been studied in human domains, 0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:11.880 such as in human residential real estate. So, for example, 0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:14.279 Chase talks about some research in the United States in 0:42:14.320 --> 0:42:18.600 the nineteen sixties that found that each new housing unit 0:42:18.800 --> 0:42:23.839 constructed triggered a vacancy chain that allowed not just one 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:27.440 family to move into the newly constructed unit, but allowed 0:42:27.600 --> 0:42:31.440 multiple families to move into what they considered better housing, 0:42:31.560 --> 0:42:35.840 better apartments. And Chase refers to one study that found 0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:39.520 average chain lengths of two point four and another that 0:42:39.640 --> 0:42:43.360 found averages of three point five, so a lot like 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:46.720 with the shells, the construction of a desirable new place 0:42:46.800 --> 0:42:50.960 to live may benefit not only the people who directly 0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:53.640 move in there, but also the people who choose to 0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:56.800 move into the living space vacated by the first residents, 0:42:56.880 --> 0:42:59.279 and so on and so on, for an average of 0:42:59.400 --> 0:43:04.560 maybe you know, somewhere between two and four resident moves. 0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:09.000 In fact, the Harvard sociology professor Harrison White, who apparently 0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:12.879 coined the term vacancy chain, found that vacancy chains were 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:16.720 also created with certain types of job openings, such as 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:20.560 the retirement of a pastor at a church that opens 0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:22.719 a spot for a new pastor to move in, and 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:25.400 then somebody and then a pastor moves into that position 0:43:25.520 --> 0:43:27.640 vacated by the person who made the first move, and 0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:31.960 so on. And this was studied across multiple professions and fields, 0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:36.719 including everything from sports coaches to drug dealers, and researching 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:39.520 the sub field has generally found that when a vacancy 0:43:39.560 --> 0:43:43.479 opens somewhere between two point five and three point five, 0:43:43.560 --> 0:43:46.359 people are able to move into better paying or more 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:50.279 desirable positions through the operation of a vacancy chain, and 0:43:50.400 --> 0:43:54.200 Chase speculates that this phenomenon probably applies to certain types 0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:57.600 of consumer goods as well, in addition to housing and 0:43:57.719 --> 0:44:01.719 job openings. One example, though there's not great research on 0:44:01.760 --> 0:44:04.200 this to back this up, but one example might be 0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:08.479 like cars. This would probably only apply to consumer goods 0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:12.399 where there's like a robust market for used options, but 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:14.400 again this has not been formally studied. 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:18.480 This does remind me of various headlines though that came 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.160 up during the pandemic. I believe, about the value of 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:25.480 certain used cars and how there was intense competition for them. However, 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:28.239 I don't really retain like car news all that well, 0:44:28.680 --> 0:44:31.879 so maybe listeners out there remember these stories as well, 0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:35.959 something about the value for an intense competition for used 0:44:35.960 --> 0:44:39.120 cars in particular models. They might have something some way 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:41.040 line up. It might line up with what we're talking 0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:41.560 about here. 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:43.960 Yeah, well, so maybe we can come back to that 0:44:44.000 --> 0:44:46.120 in a minute. When because I was thinking about, like, 0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:50.200 what are the qualities of resources that do lead to 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:53.560 these vacancy chains versus resources that don't. And Chase actually 0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:57.160 gets into that toward the end of his article, so 0:44:57.280 --> 0:45:00.560 he postes an interesting question, like why is it that 0:45:00.680 --> 0:45:05.000 vacancy chains tend to benefit, on average about three parties 0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:09.239 in markets as different as hermit crabshells, human apartments, and 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:12.840 football coaching positions. It's kind of weird that we would 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:15.879 see this range of roughly two point five to three 0:45:15.920 --> 0:45:23.160 point five beneficiaries across such wildly different domains, and Chase writes, quote, 0:45:23.320 --> 0:45:27.080 my guess is that some as yet undiscovered correspondence between 0:45:27.120 --> 0:45:30.440 the demography of humans and hermit crabs explains the effect 0:45:30.880 --> 0:45:33.480 their birth and death rates, perhaps or the rates at 0:45:33.480 --> 0:45:36.759 which new resource units are produced and used. But these 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.840 are hunches, so we don't really know the answer. But 0:45:40.120 --> 0:45:44.160 one thing we do know is that vacancy chains do 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:49.680 only seem to occur with certain types of resources, resources 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:55.000 with particular properties. So there are not vacancy chains created 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:59.400 by like boxes of breakfast cereal at the grocery store, 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:04.720 or like cans of artichokes. A vacancy chain resource tends 0:46:04.719 --> 0:46:08.280 to be something that is both scarce and highly coveted, 0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:11.320 so they're very important to the consumer and they're hard 0:46:11.360 --> 0:46:14.759 to get. They tend to be resources that can be 0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:18.920 possessed by only one competitive unit at a time, though 0:46:18.960 --> 0:46:21.400 this unit could be a group, such as like a 0:46:21.480 --> 0:46:24.160 family that occupies a house, but the group has to 0:46:24.239 --> 0:46:27.840 function as like a single unit competing for the resource, 0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:31.840 and the resource cannot be claimed unless it is empty 0:46:32.040 --> 0:46:35.759 or vacated by the previous owner. And these principles are 0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:39.719 generally true of the human resources studied, such as housing 0:46:39.840 --> 0:46:42.800 and jobs, but they're also true of hermit crab shells. 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:46.480 But this makes vacancy chains kind of interesting because they 0:46:46.600 --> 0:46:50.720 are a circumstance that arises in a market that seems 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:53.719 to be based on the type of resource being competed 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:57.400 for rather than any characteristics of the competitors. And in 0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:00.440 the end, Chase raises the question of whether it's hermits 0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:03.680 and hermit crabs could maybe help us create better economic 0:47:03.760 --> 0:47:08.239 and sociological models that would be predictive in certain human economies. 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:11.960 Interesting question, but then again, there's always the danger with that. 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:14.480 You don't want to think, Aha, I've discovered a principle 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:18.160 and hermit crabs. Therefore I can just apply it to humans. 0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:20.960 You would need good, independent evidence that it actually does 0:47:21.000 --> 0:47:21.960 apply to humans. 0:47:22.280 --> 0:47:24.719 Yeah, you couldn't just like, all right, i want to 0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:27.440 game my position in the company, So I'm going to 0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:29.440 buy a bunch of hermit crabs. I'm gonna label their 0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:32.640 shelves with the names of all of my coworkers, my bosses, 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:35.600 my competitors, and then I'm just gonna do what the 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:36.319 hermit crabs do. 0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:40.520 Not a good idea, right, So, yes, you do not 0:47:40.600 --> 0:47:43.120 want to fall into the trap of I have observed 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:46.000 hermit crabs, therefore I understand humans. But I do think 0:47:46.040 --> 0:47:49.360 it's very interesting that you have these similar principles that 0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:52.320 appear to be in operation in these hermit crab economies 0:47:52.320 --> 0:47:53.440 and human economies. 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:59.440 Yeah. Absolutely, you know this does not bear a lot 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:03.719 of discussion. But as one final tangent for this episode, 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:06.919 I want to point out that in twenty fifteen, apparently 0:48:07.400 --> 0:48:13.439 some UFO ologists looked at some NASA Mars Curiosity rover 0:48:13.480 --> 0:48:19.720 footage and in the lower guy yeah low fi visual 0:48:19.719 --> 0:48:23.120 information that was collected, they spotted a hermit crab on 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:26.880 the surface of Mars. Yeah. Also I think a scorpion 0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:32.920 and maybe a humanoid being. Alf was Alf there possibly, 0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:36.200 I think we have to assume it was alf Alf 0:48:36.320 --> 0:48:40.799 hermit crab and a scorpion. You know, obviously you can 0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:43.080 go back to our episodes that we did in the 0:48:43.160 --> 0:48:46.960 last several months talking about this very situation. What happens 0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:52.600 when you have low detail, low quality information and you 0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:59.359 really want to see humans or humanoids, aliens and so forth. Well, 0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:02.120 this is exactly what happens. You spot your your Martian 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:03.080 hermit crabs. 0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:06.200 Hold on, I'm trying to find the image. Oh, okay, 0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:08.520 here it is. I've seen something on the Daily Express. 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:11.359 There's oh you know what, I give it to them, like, 0:49:11.400 --> 0:49:13.719 that looks more like I'm not saying it is a 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:16.400 hermit crab. It's not, but that looks more like a 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:18.960 hermit crab than most of the things people see on 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:21.200 Mars actually look like the thing they're saying they are. 0:49:21.920 --> 0:49:25.440 So you're saying there's hope, I'm saying it. Really it's 0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:30.480 got It's a nice, nicely selected anomalous image. It has 0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:33.319 shadows falling on a rock in just a certain way 0:49:33.360 --> 0:49:35.759 so that it does look like legs. Kudos to them 0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:37.120 for digging up this one. 0:49:37.840 --> 0:49:41.080 I want to believe. All Right, we're gonna gohe and 0:49:41.120 --> 0:49:44.200 close out this episode, but you know we're gonna come 0:49:44.239 --> 0:49:47.680 back with a third hermit crab episode. We've got we've 0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:51.200 got some some feelers out there, we've got some ideas. 0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:54.319 We think we have enough to dish out apart three. 0:49:54.600 --> 0:49:57.280 So again, because again, there's so much hermit crab research 0:49:57.320 --> 0:50:01.160 out there. There's so many different species hermit crabs and 0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:04.600 they're all amazing. So tune in for more crab action 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:07.800 on Thursday. Because yes, Stuff to Blow your Mind publishes 0:50:07.960 --> 0:50:11.239 core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Monday is listener Mail. 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:14.680 Wednesday is a short form episode often on Monster fact 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.880 or an artifact might be busting out a new content 0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:20.799 type in the future in that space. And then on 0:50:20.880 --> 0:50:23.520 Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:28.040 about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Just a 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:30.320 reminder to everyone, Hey, if you can rate and review 0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:33.200 the show wherever you rate and review podcasts, help us out. 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:36.040 Give us a nice review. 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