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Speaker 1: Claire, Thank you so much. This is such an important

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Speaker 1: topic and I'm glad you're with us. Amber and I

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Speaker 1: so to talk about our kids and how bad we're

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Speaker 1: doing raising them. Could you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about yourself and where you're coming from and what you've

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Speaker 1: done with this project.

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Speaker 2: Jess, thanks so much for asking, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 2: So I am in Washington, d C. My husband is

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Speaker 2: a pastor in pastoral ministry, but I've spent the last

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Speaker 2: several years working in the public policy space. So I

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Speaker 2: work for a think tank, which, for those outside of DC,

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Speaker 2: is a nonprofit that tries to help support government with

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Speaker 2: research and expertise in certain issue areas. And so my

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Speaker 2: work has focused on protecting kids online from harms from smartphones,

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Speaker 2: social media, and online pornography. And so I've worked with

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Speaker 2: states on legislation at the state level to try to

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Speaker 2: better protect our kids from these harms, and then have

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Speaker 2: also worked on the federal level with advising members of

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Speaker 2: Congress on different legislative approaches. So I come to this

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Speaker 2: with from mainly a policy background, but then I'm also

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Speaker 2: a parent and I have three young children, and so

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Speaker 2: my heart really behind all of this is to help

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Speaker 2: other parents better know how to protect their kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so good. I heard from your publicist. He texted

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Speaker 1: me and told me about the book and said that

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Speaker 1: you're you know, you're going to be doing podcasts. And

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Speaker 1: turns out that that's your husband. And I love him

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Speaker 1: as a brother, and he's also Hey, he's also a

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Speaker 1: really good publicist. He's a good promoter.

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Speaker 3: He's your manage, my biggest fan, I know. I love him.

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Speaker 1: That's great. How old are your kids?

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Speaker 2: We are oldest is five, our middle is three, and

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Speaker 2: then our youngest is sixteen months.

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Speaker 1: And you're in the thick of it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we're in the little years for sure.

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Speaker 1: And you're traveling. You're doing for at least the last

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Speaker 1: three weeks. You've been really busy, am I right?

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Speaker 3: Yes, this has been exceptional for our family.

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Speaker 2: Normally, I am home like full time with our kids,

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Speaker 2: and I do my writing and my research and phone

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Speaker 2: calls and meetings and things around their sleep schedules. So

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Speaker 2: I often get up early in the mornings and work

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Speaker 2: during nap times. But the last three weeks have been

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Speaker 2: a bit of an exception with my book coming out.

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Speaker 2: So excited to return to our normal routine later this summer.

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Speaker 1: You know what you could do is whenever you have

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Speaker 1: like a podcast like this, when the kids wake up,

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Speaker 1: you could just give them an iPad and just occupy

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Speaker 1: their time a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I know how ironic. Oh, Caleb and I have

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Speaker 2: talked about that as well, just that. Yeah, there's definitely

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Speaker 2: challenges to living out a tech exit lifestyle because I

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Speaker 2: do think that the screen can become such an easy

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Speaker 2: pacifier for parents, and so it does take more involvement

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Speaker 2: on the part of parents to come up with the

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Speaker 2: alternatives for what your kids are going to do to

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Speaker 2: help entertain them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So what we're talking about for everyone is your

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Speaker 1: new book called The Tech Exit, and it's such a

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Speaker 1: helpful book, and it's not It doesn't just identify the problem,

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Speaker 1: but it's also very practical and it gives us some

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Speaker 1: some practical application as parents and for our children, but

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Speaker 1: not only for our children, for us as well. We

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Speaker 1: should this this, all of this implies that we should

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Speaker 1: be hearing this also, and you wrote it from a

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Speaker 1: parent perspective so that we could know how to better

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Speaker 1: parent our kids through something that's really untested, uncharted. We

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Speaker 1: don't know the effects of this because it's it's so new,

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Speaker 1: but we should we should also be hearing this for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And although our brains are fully developed, at least at

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Speaker 1: least most of us amber more than mine. But but

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Speaker 1: because our brains are fully developed, we we we could

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Speaker 1: handle better. But but giving our kids technology to pacify

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Speaker 1: them is actually you make the argument, it's actually it's

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Speaker 1: actually harder for parents than it is easier. And and

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Speaker 1: you could say, I've heard you say before that parents

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Speaker 1: have always been able to pass by their kids with

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Speaker 1: something other than a screen until the last ten years.

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Speaker 1: So this is brand new in human history. So where

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Speaker 1: do we begin? Where what's your first argument on why

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Speaker 1: parents should hear this and hear this conversation today and

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Speaker 1: start to think differently about screens. We all know they're bad.

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Speaker 1: But you're making the argument that it's not just reducing

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Speaker 1: the time. It's not like you have less sugar and

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Speaker 1: that's better for you, just somehow in moderation. You're saying, no,

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Speaker 1: not even moderation. So where do we begin this conversation?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for asking.

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Speaker 2: So that is that's where I start the book with,

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Speaker 2: trying to start where I think most parents are at,

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Speaker 2: which is they recognize screens are harmful, but they also

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Speaker 2: there are so many pushes towards screen I mean, parental ease,

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Speaker 2: also just the peer pressure of oh, everyone else's kid

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Speaker 2: is getting a smartphone, and so there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: pressures towards screens. But I think parents recognize they're harmful,

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Speaker 2: so they have adopted these strategies like screen time limits

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Speaker 2: rental controls, so that they can have both that they

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Speaker 2: can give their child a screen and still feel like

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Speaker 2: they're protecting them from harm. And so what I try

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Speaker 2: to explain in the book is that I want parents

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Speaker 2: to understand that screen time limits and parental controls are

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Speaker 2: not working out the ways that they have been told

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Speaker 2: that they will. Honestly by the tech companies, they've been

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Speaker 2: sold this myth. You can use our products, your kids

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Speaker 2: can use our products, just put the controls in place.

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Speaker 2: And I want parents to understand that the nature of

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Speaker 2: the design of the screen is inherently harmful and addictive

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Speaker 2: to a child's developing brain. And I think, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: we've operated with this analogy of treating screens like sugar,

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Speaker 2: something that can be enjoyed in moderation. Obviously, we don't

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Speaker 2: want to give it to them in large amounts. But

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Speaker 2: what I'm trying to explain to parents is that the

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Speaker 2: business model and the effect that these technologies have on

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Speaker 2: a child's developing brain and nervous system. The dopamine that's

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Speaker 2: released constantly while they're on the screen, and the amount

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Speaker 2: of dopamine is incredibly addictive. So no screen time life

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Speaker 2: is ever enough. And I think any parent who has

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Speaker 2: tried this approach will tell you that that it's a

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Speaker 2: constant battle because the child always wants more, and it's

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Speaker 2: because the dopamine released from the interactive features of the screen,

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Speaker 2: the notifications, the likes, the new tokens in the game,

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Speaker 2: all of this is eliciting a response in the brain

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Speaker 2: that makes a child want more and more and more.

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Speaker 2: It creates compulsion, and dopamine actually never creates satisfaction. So

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Speaker 2: there's there's no limit that will ever be enough. And

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Speaker 2: even a short amount of time means even after the

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Speaker 2: child is not on the screen or the app anymore,

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Speaker 2: they will be living in that virtual world long after

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Speaker 2: they leave it that the screen time limit doesn't map

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Speaker 2: on to a child's mental or emotional time because it

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Speaker 2: creates such a strong craving and so I want parents

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Speaker 2: to put screens more in the category of a highly

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Speaker 2: addictive drug, something that we recognize is so inherently addictive,

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Speaker 2: even in small amounts, that it just is overpowering to

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Speaker 2: a child's divvel helping brain and nervous system. And so

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Speaker 2: that's what I'm trying to explain to parents in the

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Speaker 2: opening of the book, is that I understand that parents

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Speaker 2: kind of feel like they can control this thing, and

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to expose that the underlying business model makes

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Speaker 2: it inherently dangerous in any amount to allow a child

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Speaker 2: onto particularly smartphones and interactive screens like tablets, And then

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Speaker 2: the worst defenders are the social media apps that they're

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Speaker 2: accessing often on those devices.

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Speaker 1: So there is a level of screens like TVs, although

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Speaker 1: not ideal, you're saying, that's kind of the low the

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Speaker 1: low level. And then and you get hired as you

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Speaker 1: get into maybe educational videos on a tablet. Well, I

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Speaker 1: guess tablets are told it's it levels up itself because

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Speaker 1: it's interactive and it's touch screen, and you get dopamine

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Speaker 1: hit just from swiping around. But then you're saying, all

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Speaker 1: the way up to a social media, a full blown

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Speaker 1: social media account. What were you going to say.

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Speaker 4: Well, just to say, Claire in your book, you say,

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Speaker 4: I was so convicted because we our children have screens,

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Speaker 4: we try to put the limits on them, but as

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Speaker 4: you said, it's all a facade. Screen limits don't actually work.

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Speaker 4: But you say, we don't put limits on them bike riding,

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Speaker 4: or we don't put limits on them reading a book.

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Speaker 4: So we're putting limits on something because we know, we

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Speaker 4: have to know inherently it's not great for them. And

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Speaker 4: so that was really convicting for me, Like, we don't

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Speaker 4: put a limit on them doing a puzzle or coloring

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Speaker 4: or things like that, but there's something wrong if we

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Speaker 4: have to put a limit on something that they're doing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up.

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Speaker 2: I do think that's and that's I think one of

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Speaker 2: the most revealing things to pearance is when they stop

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Speaker 2: and think about it, they're like, oh, yeah, why am

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Speaker 2: I putting a limit on it? Because I do know

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Speaker 2: that it's harmful for them? And so just kind of

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Speaker 2: questioning like what level of harm then are we comfortable with?

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Speaker 2: Like if we know that there is some harm that

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Speaker 2: comes through this, then yeah, then the limit it just

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Speaker 2: it becomes very difficult then to explain just what limit

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Speaker 2: is appropriate. Then if it's like an inherently harmful things,

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Speaker 2: should we be giving it at all?

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Speaker 3: And that's kind of what.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to push parents towards. And you know, Granger,

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Speaker 2: you were mentioning there is a range, and I try

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Speaker 2: to distinguish between that and my book that there are

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Speaker 2: more passive screens like television, where you're consuming content on them,

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Speaker 2: but the child's not actually interacting with the screen, They're

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Speaker 2: not receiving feedback from it. Because what makes the iPad,

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Speaker 2: the tablet, the smartphone, the social media app so addictive

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Speaker 2: is it's that constant feedback, like that's what draws them

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Speaker 2: back for more. And the companies know this, that they

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Speaker 2: are hijacking our brains vulnerabilities, and that we're drawn to

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Speaker 2: these social rewards and we should be getting them from

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Speaker 2: people in real life, like that's the feedback and approval

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Speaker 2: of our peers. But social media and other apps too.

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Speaker 2: I try to explain to parents social media has crept

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Speaker 2: into all these other kind of apps advertised to younger kids.

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Speaker 2: I've had so many parents say, I thought my kid

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Speaker 2: was just playing this educational game. I had no idea

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Speaker 2: that they could actually be messaging with complete strangers on

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Speaker 2: this app, they could be adding friends on this and

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Speaker 2: so it's actually social media is not even contained to

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Speaker 2: the major social media apps anymore. All these other apps

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Speaker 2: are kind of grafting onto that business model as well.

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Speaker 2: And so just knowing that these things are not they're

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Speaker 2: just hijacking our brain's normal process of development, particularly particularly

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Speaker 2: in children, to start to turn outwards toward their peers

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Speaker 2: to look for feedback and approval. And the social media

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Speaker 2: apps and these other apps that are kind of social

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Speaker 2: media light are really hijacking that normal process of development

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Speaker 2: and making kids extra sensitive. And so that's why I

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Speaker 2: would just say the brain research parents have to understand,

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Speaker 2: like studies are coming out showing that kids who are

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Speaker 2: frequent checkers of social media or other apps are showing

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Speaker 2: divergent brain development other time, that their brains are not

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Speaker 2: proceeding to develop in a normal way, but are becoming

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Speaker 2: extremely overly sensitive to the kinds of social rewards that

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Speaker 2: they get through these apps.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned even the U version Bible apps having a

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Speaker 1: social component to it where people are sharing pictures with

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Speaker 1: each other. So even if you look at your child's

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Speaker 1: phone and the only thing on here is a Bible app.

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Speaker 1: They're totally good.

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Speaker 2: Not so fast, yes, I think, And that's what I

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Speaker 2: try to explain more in the parental Controls or a

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Speaker 2: myth chapter, which is kind of the second part of

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about with the current harm reduction measures

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Speaker 2: most parents are employing. And I'm not trying to fault

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Speaker 2: parents for using controls, obviously they're trying to keep their

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Speaker 2: child safe, but I'm trying to explain that there are

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Speaker 2: so many holes and gaps that they're just not fully effective.

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Speaker 2: And so even if you think your child is on

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Speaker 2: the U version Bible app, that's the only app they're

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Speaker 2: allowed to access. There are just so many backdoors to

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Speaker 2: the Internet that all these apps. There's hundreds of apps

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Speaker 2: available on a device, and each of them has their

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Speaker 2: own InApp browser, its own portal to the Internet. Often

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Speaker 2: filters or perntal control software you install can't access those

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Speaker 2: in app browsers where parents don't realize they install a

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Speaker 2: third party prontal control software, and most of the major

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Speaker 2: social media companies don't let third party software access the

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Speaker 2: data inside their app. So it's the best it can

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Speaker 2: tell you is how much time your kid has spent

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Speaker 2: on Snapchat, you have no idea what they're seeing or

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Speaker 2: doing inside of it. The fact that they could click

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Speaker 2: through to a pornography website like porn Hub without ever

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Speaker 2: leaving the app, and a parent would have no idea.

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Speaker 2: So I just I feel for parents, and I want

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Speaker 2: them to understand that they are just flying completely blind

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Speaker 2: when it comes to these devices, because it's they're just

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Speaker 2: impossible to effectively lock down, and the device manufacturers don't

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Speaker 2: even make it easy on parents. I've had so many

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Speaker 2: moms complain that they configure the app store to only

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Speaker 2: show apps rated as appropriate for a nine year old,

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Speaker 2: and they still said that their son was advertised adult

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Speaker 2: online dating apps in the app store, And one survey

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Speaker 2: said that one in four nine to twelve year old

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Speaker 2: boys have been on an online dating app. I mean,

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Speaker 2: which is horrifying, but it's hard. It's easier to understand

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Speaker 2: how that could even be reality when you realize that

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Speaker 2: the app stores are often promoting these inappropriate apps, even

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Speaker 2: to accounts that are supposed.

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Speaker 3: To be configured to be appropriate for a child.

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Speaker 2: And so I feel like parents fight a colossal uphill battle,

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Speaker 2: and I just want them to understand that the best

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Speaker 2: solution is just to totally opt out. That it's just

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Speaker 2: it's impossible to effectively lock down a smartphone to be

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Speaker 2: safe for a child.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you were saying that there's just these all these

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Speaker 4: dopamine hits, and that kids are they're becoming desensitized to

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Speaker 4: the pleasures of the real world. It's like nothing in

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Speaker 4: the world world, like a sunrise or a sunset, or

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Speaker 4: a beautiful bird or nothing is exciting to them anymore.

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Speaker 4: They get so bored so easily because they're searching for

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Speaker 4: that continued dopamine hit that they're getting from the apps

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Speaker 4: or the games that they're playing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and this is a big part of it too,

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Speaker 2: is I think sometimes parents think that the kind of

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Speaker 2: cost to being on the screen is this opportunity cost

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Speaker 2: of their time spent on the screen versus doing something else.

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Speaker 2: But that's not the only opportunity cost. It's not just time,

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Speaker 2: but their actual affections and desires change. They become warped

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Speaker 2: by the screen so that they are actually desensitized to

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Speaker 2: things that are supposed to bring us pleasure in the

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Speaker 2: real world. That, yeah, a sunset or a walk with

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Speaker 2: a family member, starts to feel boring and mundane because

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Speaker 2: their brain gets used to an artificially high level of

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Speaker 2: dopamine from these features on the screen, and so the

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Speaker 2: dopamine the pleasure bursts that would be released by real

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Speaker 2: life activities just fall completely flat because the child's brain

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Speaker 2: is so olderly sensitized to such a high artificial level

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Speaker 2: of dopamine, and so it is it's a bigger cost

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Speaker 2: than just their time. It actually changes their desires and

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Speaker 2: their appetites and affections away from the things that parents

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Speaker 2: would want them to desire to do.

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Speaker 4: I even saw in the book that you and I

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Speaker 4: know I keep honing in on the dangers, but you

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Speaker 4: said something about dry eyes in little children, little babies,

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Speaker 4: and I was just shocked that. I mean, you can

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Speaker 4: tell would you tell us about that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, this was actually probably the most horrifying thing I

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Speaker 2: came across in my research that I really hadn't prior

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Speaker 2: to understood. I had known more about the mental health

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Speaker 2: harms and some of these other things, but the dry

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Speaker 2: eye was just shocking to me. I interviewed an ophthalmologist

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Speaker 2: and she said she was starting to see kids in

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Speaker 2: her practice, eight or nine year olds coming in with

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Speaker 2: chronic dry eye, and she couldn't understand why this was happening.

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Speaker 2: But it turns out that the only factor behind it

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Speaker 2: was just that these kids were spending a lot of

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Speaker 2: time on screens. And so what she realized is that

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Speaker 2: when kids are staring at a screen, they're not blinking

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Speaker 2: enough because when we blink, we actually release oil from

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Speaker 2: these glands in our eyes that then lubricate our eye

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Speaker 2: and keep them lubricated, which is important because what she

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Speaker 2: was explaining to me is when the kids are not blinking,

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Speaker 2: they're not releasing this oil from the glands, and the

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Speaker 2: glands just dry up. She used an analogy which maybe

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Speaker 2: you all understand. I didn't grow up on a farm,

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Speaker 2: but I know many people have grown up on farms

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Speaker 2: that when you milk a cow, that's really important otherwise

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Speaker 2: the milk will dry up. And she said it's the

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Speaker 2: same with these glands, that when we blink, we're actually

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Speaker 2: like milking the gland, and if it isn't milked, it

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Speaker 2: just completely dries up. And she said kids are actually

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Speaker 2: losing their eye glands and they can't come back, like

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Speaker 2: once they're lost, they're gone. And the danger then is

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Speaker 2: if unless now these kids will have to spend the

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Speaker 2: rest of their life artificially lubricating their eyes with external

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Speaker 2: eye drops because if they don't, scar tissue builds up

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Speaker 2: on the eye and that can actually ultimately lead to blindness.

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Speaker 2: And so I asked her, I said, well, then how

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Speaker 2: many hours a day? Like what are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: Like when does this dry eye start happening? And she said,

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Speaker 2: we don't have the research yet to tell us like

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Speaker 2: how much is too much? But she said, all I

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Speaker 2: can say is that we need to drastically minimize the

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Speaker 2: amount of hours a day that children are spending on screens,

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Speaker 2: because she said, any amount of time on the screen,

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Speaker 2: they're not blinking enough. And when that kind of blink

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Speaker 2: brain connection breaks down and kids aren't blinking enough, they

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Speaker 2: lose these glands that they need to be able to see.

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Speaker 2: I mean, They're eyes could literally go blind from staring

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Speaker 2: from staring at the screens too much if they lose

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Speaker 2: these glands.

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Speaker 3: I was shocking to me.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just thinking, has there ever been a greater

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Speaker 1: threat to our children? I was I was kind of

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Speaker 1: thinking about that we talked about.

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Speaker 4: Right before we started, that we got so fearful or

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Speaker 4: our parents did got so fearful of the outside exterior

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Speaker 4: dangers in the world that we've brought them in to

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Speaker 4: where it's now it's even more dangerous inside on a

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Speaker 4: little screen. We think we're protecting them, and we're really

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Speaker 4: hurting them even more.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

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Speaker 2: I do think that that is kind of what happened,

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Speaker 2: that parents started getting afraid of kind of what was

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Speaker 2: happening in the outside world and thought like, we'll just

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Speaker 2: have our kids be inside where we can see them

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Speaker 2: and monitor what they're doing. And I think that is

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Speaker 2: the subtle danger of screens, is that when you hand

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Speaker 2: your child a smartphone, you are handing the entire world

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Speaker 2: access to your child. I think it's hard for parents

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Speaker 2: to understand that. They think, well, I see my child,

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Speaker 2: they're sitting right there. But the reality is that people

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Speaker 2: predators from all over the world can actually be reaching

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Speaker 2: out to your child and imitating, like presenting themselves as

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Speaker 2: if they are a peer in your local community. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you've followed the stories in the news

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Speaker 2: about these sextortion schemes, but they're run out of you know,

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Speaker 2: third world developing countries. People who are thousands of miles away,

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Speaker 2: but they portray themselves as a teenage girl down the street.

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Speaker 2: And so these poor teenage boys have just fallen victim

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Speaker 2: to these sextortion schemes and they and I just aparent,

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Speaker 2: I mean, parent after a parent I've spoken of said

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Speaker 2: they just had no idea. I mean, they just thought

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Speaker 2: that their child was talking to their friends on these

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Speaker 2: apps or devices and they were sitting right there, you know,

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Speaker 2: in their bedroom or in the living room. And so

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Speaker 2: it is really important for parents to understand, like, your

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Speaker 2: child is actually much safer playing outside. They're much safer

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Speaker 2: riding their bike down the street than they are sitting

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Speaker 2: in their room on a screen alone where the entire

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Speaker 2: world can actually access them now because social media has

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Speaker 2: given predators incredible access. I mean I interviewed a law

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Speaker 2: enforcement detective in the book. He's you know, his whole

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Speaker 2: career was spent just prosecuting, going after human traffickers. And

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Speaker 2: he said, Claire, the level of access predators have today

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Speaker 2: is unlike anything we've ever.

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Speaker 3: Seen before in human history.

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Speaker 2: The fact that they can just so easily get access

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Speaker 2: to a child just through an app, just through a screen,

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Speaker 2: within seconds. And so I do think it's really critical

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Speaker 2: for parents to understand that.

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Speaker 1: I think that answers the question has there ever been

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Speaker 1: a greater threat? You know, as we think through these things,

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Speaker 1: I've said before, either on this podcast or to other people,

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Speaker 1: when was the last time you saw a kid with

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Speaker 1: a cast on their arm? Like remember when we were

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Speaker 1: growing up, there was always a kid in school that

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Speaker 1: had a cast, and everyone's signing it, you know, putting

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Speaker 1: an autograph and you see. I think there's got to

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Speaker 1: be a correlation. These days, you see less and less

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Speaker 1: cast Like kids are not falling out of trees anymore.

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Speaker 1: Kids are not falling off bikes and breaking the collar

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Speaker 1: bone or their wrist. That's not happening as surely, Claire.

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Speaker 1: I as you talk, and I want people to understand

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Speaker 1: that you're not just someone who sat in a room

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Speaker 1: and read a bunch of books, or you've even sat

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Speaker 1: under a professor. You are those things, but more than that.

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Speaker 1: You've mentioned a few times here already you said, I've

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Speaker 1: talked to so many parents, or I interviewed this person,

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Speaker 1: or I talked to this doctor. So you've been you

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Speaker 1: are doing the research. How long did this take you

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Speaker 1: and how important was it for you to not just

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Speaker 1: read something or to take in an opinion, but to

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Speaker 1: see it hear it for yourself.

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Speaker 3: That's such a good question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in some ways, I've been working on this

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Speaker 2: book for just the last like four or five years

417
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Speaker 2: that have been doing this work because of all the

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Speaker 2: people I've encountered over the years of just doing this

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Speaker 2: work and spoken to these people firsthand, but particularly for

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Speaker 2: the book. I mean, I spent about year just interviewing

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Speaker 2: people and hearing their stories, and not just experts. I

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Speaker 2: really I did want to speak to experts in the

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Speaker 2: spaces like law enforcement, medicine, education, but I actually spent

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Speaker 2: a lot of time talking to families because what I

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Speaker 2: was mainly trying to set out to do in this

426
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Speaker 2: book was to prove to myself that a smartphone free

427
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Speaker 2: childhood was possible. This is what I wanted to do

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Speaker 2: for my own kids. Like after reading all this research,

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Speaker 2: I became convinced I'm not giving my own children smartphones

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Speaker 2: or social media. But they were all little, Like as

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Speaker 2: we mentioned, they were all under the age of five,

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Speaker 2: and so I had not yet personally navigated the teen

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Speaker 2: years to say that yes, you can do this successfully.

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Speaker 2: This is how to do it, And so that is

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Speaker 2: what I set out to do in my book was

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Speaker 2: I wanted to prove to myself and be able to

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Speaker 2: prove to all the other parents now who can read

438
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: my book, that a smartphone free childhood is possible and

439
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 2: how how can you do this? And so I spoke

440
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 2: to just dozens of families all over the country, kids

441
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: of different ages, age ranges, and I just really sought

442
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: to find out how did you opt out successfully and

443
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 2: how did you overcome different challenges to living out a

444
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: tech exit lifestyle. And that is what I tried to

445
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 2: then draw out in the book was the core principles

446
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 2: and practices that all these families had in common, even

447
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: though they may have slightly different arrangements of how this

448
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 2: looked in their family with their particular kids, they shared

449
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: several practices that helped them successfully keep smartphones out of childhood.

450
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: And I wanted to show other parents then how to

451
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: do that, And so I tell people I had this

452
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 2: hypothesis going into the book. I came out of my

453
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 2: research overwhelmingly convinced that not only was this necessary to

454
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 2: give children a smartphone free childhood, but.

455
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 3: It was actually possible.

456
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 2: It was actually easier than I think I thought because

457
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: hearing from these families and how they kind of overcame

458
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 2: different points of resistance, and just like you were saying

459
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 2: at the beginning, Granger, that actually this was the easier path.

460
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 3: In the long run.

461
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: Sure there were short term costs to saying no to smartphones,

462
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 2: but their kids learned how to play independently. Their kids

463
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: learned how to self entertain themselves. They learned how to

464
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: develop real world skills, I mean, to play outside, to

465
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: develop a craft, a sport, a music, musical instrument, and

466
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: they developed most importantly self control because they didn't grow

467
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: up addicted or dependent on these devices, and so they're

468
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: entering now the adult world just so set up for success.

469
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 2: And all their kids were just flourishing and happy and

470
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: had close relationships with their parents and their siblings. And

471
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: so to me, it was like what parent wouldn't want

472
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: this for their kid? And if the common ingredient in

473
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 2: all these families was resisting smartphones, then I was like,

474
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 2: I need to get the word out. I want everyone

475
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: to understand it this is possible and that it's really

476
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: fundamentally positive.

477
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 3: I think parents feel.

478
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: Like, oh, saying no to screens just sounds like drudgery,

479
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 2: and that wasn't the case for these families because they were.

480
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: They explained to me, like saying no to screens was

481
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 2: saying yes just so much more in the real world

482
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: and in real life you want for your kids.

483
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: And they're not weird.

484
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 3: They're not weird.

485
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 2: I think I've less at least stated that in the book,

486
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 2: because I do think people think, Okay, these people must

487
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: be like living in luddite bubbles, or they're like in

488
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 2: Amish communities, and I'm like, no, these are your neighbors,

489
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: like down the street. Like these families live in just

490
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 2: normal neighborhoods and they're part of normal schools. And honestly,

491
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: some people in their community they found other families to

492
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: opt out with them, but then other families in their

493
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 2: communities didn't, and they just they found ways to help

494
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: their kids build friendships in the real world, whether or

495
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: not everyone shared their tech restrictions or not. And so

496
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 2: I talk about in the book that it really helps

497
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: set you up for success if you can find a

498
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: few other parents to be allies in this with you,

499
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: and so your kids do genuinely have other friends who

500
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: are also not on smartphones or social media. But they

501
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 2: also shared that, you know, some other families in their kids'

502
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: friends did have phones, and how they navigated that was

503
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 2: they said, well, our kids didn't, and we explained to

504
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 2: our kids that a real friend will find other ways

505
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 2: to get in touch with you if you're not on

506
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: the apps or you're not in the group text. And

507
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 2: so a lot of these kids even said that they

508
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 2: saw the differences for themselves that in their peers who

509
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 2: were on smartphones, they found them to be more kind

510
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 2: of lame in social settings. And so these families are

511
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: not retreating from the world. They're not building separate you

512
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: know communities, completely opting out of society, but they are

513
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: just saying no to smartphones and they're able to then

514
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: help their family thrive and flourish because of that. So

515
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 2: I would just say it is there is a component

516
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: of finding other people to do this with you. I

517
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: think it's helpful to build what I kind of call

518
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: these counter communities. You know, a group of people within

519
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: a community that's opting out together, but you don't have

520
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 2: to exit society. That they've actually found ways to navigate

521
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 2: the real world opting out of these smartphones, and they've

522
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 2: actually helped their children find their real friends faster by

523
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: these tech restrictions. That it didn't deny their kids' friendships,

524
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 2: but it actually helped them build really good and strong

525
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 2: friendships with their peers.

526
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: It would not be the first time on this podcast

527
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: that I say the Amish have had a lot of

528
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: right ideas. In fact, I know, I know we have

529
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: Almish people that listen to this podcast. If you're trying

530
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: to get a gift for someone that you think has everything,

531
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: how about a special video message from me. It's easy

532
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: to do. Go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith

533
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: and you put in the prompt what you want me

534
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: to say. I get that message on my phone. I'll

535
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 1: say happy birthday, happy anniversary, whatever personalized message you want

536
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: me to say to whoever you want me to say

537
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: it to. I send it to you and you give

538
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: it to them. It's pretty cool. Go to cameo dot

539
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: com slash Granger Smith. I listen to your interview with

540
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: doctor Moeler, whom I love, and Amber and I both

541
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: love the Mohlers and Mary and doctor Moeller. But but

542
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: at some level it's you know, listening to that and

543
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: he has no charity for kids with screens or parents.

544
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: It's just like we go to a restaurant and Mary

545
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: and I saw a family and everyone has tablets and

546
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 1: they're just like zombies and the parents are disconnected and

547
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: at some level, I'm hearing that as just you know,

548
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: out of touch grandpa, even though he's right. But let's

549
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: talk Let's talk to not the not the grandparents, but

550
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: let's talk to parents right now that are in the

551
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: fight that go I hear this, I want to engage.

552
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: It's it's difficult for me, and thank goodness, in this book,

553
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: you have practical ways that these parents could hear. So

554
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about I guess let's talk about feast, right. Yeah.

555
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 4: I was just to say one thing what I love

556
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 4: about the book is it is so practical, and you

557
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 4: have so many different families that you've talked to and

558
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 4: interviewed that are in different stages of what.

559
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: They've already allowed.

560
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 4: And you know, you talk about fasting, and you know

561
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 4: you want maybe try a thirty day fast, or try

562
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 4: a seven day fast, and even if it's so much

563
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 4: addiction where they're on their phone all day long, try

564
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 4: a ten minute walk, you know. So that's just some

565
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 4: of the practical things that I've loved about reading in

566
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 4: this is that we're all in different stages of what

567
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: we've already allowed. A lot of us might feel stuck

568
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 4: or that like, oh gosh, I'll never be able to

569
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,719
Speaker 4: return from this, so how do we do that?

570
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 2: Yes, I really did try to break it down really

571
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: practically for parents, And the main message I wanted to convey,

572
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: even by having that entire chapter on how to fast

573
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: how did detox from these things? Is that it's never

574
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: too late to reverse course. I think I've often just

575
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: heard from parents, Oh, you know, I wish I had

576
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 2: had your book three years ago. We already gave you know,

577
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: our child a smartphone, and.

578
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,959
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, read the book. It is. It is

579
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: not too late.

580
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: Like that is the hope that I want to convey

581
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: is that so many of the families I spoke to

582
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: it wasn't like this is how they had started out,

583
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: you know, they had done actually a lot of screens

584
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: or had given smartphones and they had to reverse course.

585
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 3: And what's amazing is that detoxing is possible. I mean, children's.

586
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: Brains can be reset and their habits can be reformed.

587
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 2: And a lot of these families share that initially it

588
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: was really tough. I mean taking something away that a

589
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: child is so drawn to can feel like, you know,

590
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: you're just ripping off one of their limbs. Like one

591
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: mom just said, it was just it felt like excruciatingly

592
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: painful to take the screen away. But that they kept

593
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: going and what they saw was that their kids started

594
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: to form new habits without the screens, that they started

595
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: to have their creativity and their imagination come back, and

596
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: their ability to entertain themselves. And so I I do

597
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: try to tell parents, maybe the tech egs it seems

598
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: daunting to you to do in the long term, just

599
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: try to start with thirty days, or maybe thirty days

600
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: is too long, try to do a week, go on

601
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: a screen free family vacation. Like the summer is such

602
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: a great time to try a lot of these things out,

603
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: like doing a detox for thirty days over the summer

604
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: and making it something that's actually a fun family activity

605
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: that you're looking forward to, explaining to your kids why

606
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: you're doing this, and coming up with a plan of

607
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: these are all the things we're going to do instead

608
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: not on screens. We're going to do this family game night,

609
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: or we're going to go for a walk every night

610
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: after dinner as a family, or these are your new routines.

611
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: We're going to have chores every morning, and then you

612
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: can go play outside, then you can do reading time.

613
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: Just giving them actually like a structure and a plan

614
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: for those thirty days to try to get them excited

615
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 2: about all the things they're going to be doing off screens.

616
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: And it will take time. I had so many parents say,

617
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, the first two weeks, I felt like I

618
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: had to spend a lot of time as a parent

619
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: helping my kids learn how to play, you know, reading

620
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: books to them, playing games with them. But then they're like,

621
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: we kept going, and we got to thirty days and

622
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: the kids were playing by themselves and they stopped asking

623
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: for the screens, and so we just kept going and

624
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: never looked back. And so I would just encourage parents,

625
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: like it is never too late to reverse course, you know,

626
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: the sooner the better, the younger the better. But just

627
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: starting out with something you can accomplish. I think anyone

628
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: can commit to doing something for thirty days and just

629
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: trying that out as the entry point to then sustaining

630
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: this type of lifestyle over the longer term.

631
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: Of course, and what you're saying is that it's easy

632
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: to understand if you put it in different a different perspective.

633
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: It would be like saying research says that smoking for

634
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: teens is bad, and someone goes, you know, I'm forty

635
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: years old. I wish I would have known this when

636
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: I was a team because now I've been smoking the

637
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: last six years and like, no, no, we're talking to

638
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: you too. I mean, you could start now, so no

639
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: one would make that argument. And with anything else, Like

640
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: I wish I would have known that gambling is bad.

641
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: I've been gambling for five years. If I would have

642
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: known before, but now I guess I'll just gamble the

643
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: rest of my life or what you know, put the

644
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: bad habit in there. Screens is the same thing. So

645
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: this doesn't matter how far you've come or how long

646
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: your kids have been looking at a screen. Even if

647
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: your kid's a junior in high school and they're leaving

648
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: next year, you can start now, right I do. I.

649
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: Actually, that's one of the biggest things I feel like

650
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: I have to emphasize to parents, is like.

651
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: No, no, I'm talking to you.

652
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: Even if you're like, well, my kid only has one

653
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: more year at home, I'm like yeah, that's one more year.

654
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: That's a whole year that you can help them form

655
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: better habits without a smartphone to set them up for

656
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: their adult life. So it's really never too late. And

657
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: I will say the older the child. If you are

658
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: then taking away a freedom that you've given a big

659
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 2: freedom in the virtual world, then as you take that away,

660
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: try to give them more freedoms in the real world,

661
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: like we were talking about earlier, Like it's it's it's

662
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: better to give them real world freedoms and responsibilities because

663
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: they are about to enter the adult world. And so

664
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: I had one dad say for them, it took a truck.

665
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: They had decided that their son could get a smartphone

666
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: starting his senior year of high school, and as soon

667
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: as they gave it to him, within days, they like

668
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: completely regretted the decision.

669
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 3: They're like, he is drawn to that thing so compulsively.

670
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: We have made a mistake.

671
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: And this dad told me, he's like, this is not

672
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: a parenting decision I recommend, which is like, give your

673
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: kid a smartphone and then like a week later, take

674
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: it away. But they thought it was necessary, and so

675
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: they did what they believed was right as parents. But

676
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: by taking that away. They offered their son the use

677
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: of a family truck instead, and the dad kind of

678
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: laughed telling me the story. He's like, it's ironic, but

679
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: I mean like it took actually a truck, like it

680
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: took giving our son a truck when we took the

681
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: smartphone away. But then he used that truck to start

682
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: a moving business with his brother over the summer. He

683
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: made money, who built a lot of self confidence and

684
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: hard work and work ethic, learning to drive, learning to

685
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: start this business. And so I do think that's kind

686
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: of It's just it's a good way of thinking about it.

687
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: Is like, Okay, if we are taking away something that

688
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: felt like such a huge privilege to our kids, this

689
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: marker of progressing towards adulthood, to give them a smartphone, well,

690
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: then instead give them something in the real world that

691
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 2: is really truly helping them progress towards adulthood, something in

692
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: real life, more freedoms in the real world, more responsibilities

693
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: that will help them progress towards adulthood. And so that

694
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: would be the advice. I recommend that it's not too late,

695
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: even for teens, but particularly for teenagers. If you are

696
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 2: taking away a smartphone trying to think of things in

697
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: the real world you could replace that with that will

698
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: actually allow them more freedoms that help them actually develop

699
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: the skills you want them to have.

700
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,479
Speaker 1: And so for that, for that, I know abern are

701
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: both like, well, we have so many questions, you know,

702
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: like vying for the attention here. But for this instance,

703
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: are you giving the kid a flip phone or a

704
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: dumb phone for communication?

705
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 3: For driving?

706
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: Yeah?

707
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I talk about that as well.

708
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: That a lot of what these families had in common

709
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 2: was they really delayed the age of first cell phone

710
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 2: as long as possible, like, you know, does this kid

711
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: really need a phone, or or can they use the

712
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 2: phone at school?

713
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: Can they use a friend's phone.

714
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: But for a lot of parents that the big marker

715
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: of when they did need a cell phone was they

716
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: started driving. They were going to be somewhere independent in

717
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 2: the car, and so what if they broke down or

718
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: you know, had an emergency. They wanted them to be

719
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: able to call. And so when they then did get

720
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: that child a first phone, it was a non smartphone.

721
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: Some families, Yeah, they said it was like a track

722
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: phone that they had in the car and it stayed

723
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: in the car and they could just use it when

724
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: they were in the car driving for emergencies. Other families

725
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: opted for some of these alternatives I mentioned, like a

726
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: gab phone or bark phone or pinwheel phone. There's even

727
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 2: a phone called the ys phone invented by a dad

728
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: in Texas that basically it allows you to have GPS

729
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: other tools that you might need, but no internet browser,

730
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 2: no social media, no games like super limited apps that

731
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: are truly just tools. And so a lot of you know,

732
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: families found that to be a helpful alternative for when

733
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 2: a child started driving and legitimately had communication needs and

734
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: in some cases, you know, navigation needs, they wanted their

735
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 2: child to have GPS.

736
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: That's great. So you are an advocate for some of

737
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: the dumb phones that are becoming more and more popular

738
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: in and that they're functioning better now. It was like

739
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: three or four years ago we saw these ads stop

740
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: propping up with these different phones and the minimalist phones

741
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: for adults, and then people realized that this actually could

742
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: be really good for a teenager that's driving, and you.

743
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, that's right.

744
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: No, the options are so great now, I mean better

745
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: than they even were three years ago, as you mentioned,

746
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: and I would just say every family has to know

747
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: their kids and what's going to be helpful or not

748
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: for them. I have a have had a couple families

749
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: say even some of the alternative smartphones they felt like

750
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: wasn't good for their child. They were still kind of

751
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: addicted to the texting and so they you know, So

752
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 2: I think it's just it's important to say, yes, like

753
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 2: an alternative phone is way better than a smartphone. Even then,

754
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: I think you have to watch your child and how

755
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: they're using it, and again trying to protect them from

756
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: something that's becoming addictive or compulsive to them, and then

757
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: rethinking then how you're going to handle those types of boundaries,

758
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 2: whether or not then they truly need a super dumb

759
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: phone like a track phone, or putting other boundaries around

760
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: it would be important.

761
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: Is this that much different than that the nineteen seventies

762
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: with television and the uproar of parents, And I mean,

763
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: I certainly think it is. I just wanted to hear

764
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: from you.

765
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

766
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: People always make this comparison for me. They're like, but

767
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: everyone freaked out about television and it wasn't that bad.

768
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: And my two responses are like, well, have you actually

769
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: read all the literature about television because it's not good.

770
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: I mean this like, too much television is not good

771
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: for kids development or their vocabulary or they're learning. So

772
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: in some ways, I think some of the scare around

773
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: television was a bit merited that too much television is

774
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 2: certainly not good for kids development. But then the second

775
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: thing I say is this is much different than what

776
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 2: we saw with television. A television set stays in a

777
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: specific location in your house. Even when it first came out,

778
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: too there were limited programming options. It wasn't this infinite

779
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: stream of entertainment that you could be constantly jumping between

780
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: different streaming platforms and apps. But then also, the smartphone

781
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: is a device that actually travels with you. So it's

782
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: not just a television that stays in your living room,

783
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: but it's a device that comes travels in with you

784
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: in your pocket twenty four to seven, and has way

785
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: greater functionality than a television. I mean, it's like a

786
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: supercomputer that has every possible app portal to the Internet

787
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: that's on your person twenty four to seven. And so no,

788
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 2: we've not ever seen a technolog quite like this, because

789
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: it is ever present twenty four to seven, and it

790
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: just it has basically unlimited entertainment. It's infinite scroll and

791
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: kids are just switching between apps constantly. There was some

792
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: study that was like the average time a kid spends

793
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: is like thirty seconds before they switch to something else.

794
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 3: So I mean their.

795
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: Attention spans are just being completely undermined because they don't

796
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: need to sustain attention on anything for a certain amount

797
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 2: of time. They can just jump to the next app

798
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 2: and see if there's new notifications there.

799
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's it's.

800
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: Endless, it's infinite, and it's the portability, the nature of

801
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: it just being constantly with a child. And the last

802
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 2: thing I'll say is the screen is small, and what

803
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: I try to convey the parents is is inherently secretive.

804
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: It's not as public. You can't as easily see what

805
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: your child's watching the way you could on the family

806
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,919
Speaker 2: television set, So it's really difficult for parents to see

807
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: into and it even conveys to the child this sense

808
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 2: of this individualized entertainment. So what I often tell parents

809
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: is if you want to enjoy screen entertainment as a family,

810
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 2: like the bigger the screen, the better, make it a

811
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: shared experience, something that you're all partaking in together. You know,

812
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 2: the tablet, the smartphone is such an highly individualized experience.

813
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: It's really dividing family relationships, and it becomes so highly

814
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 2: personalized to the user. The algorithms that make it so

815
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: addictive become so highly personalized. And so I also try

816
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: to just convey that in a lot of ways, like

817
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: the medium is the message that the smartphone device actually

818
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: even just the mode of technology that it is, tells

819
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: a child that the world revolves around them. I mean,

820
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: it really makes them think that everything in life is

821
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: just for their own entertainment and pleasure, that they can

822
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: scroll constantly, that they can be constantly amused and entertained.

823
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: So make a theological argument there, right, yeah.

824
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 2: No, so I yes, So for Christian parents especially, I

825
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 2: try to explain, like the technology is not neutral, even

826
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: if you think you're controlling the content on the screen

827
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: or the time limits, but the mode of the technology itself,

828
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: because of how highly individualized it is, and that its

829
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: entire purpose is for just constant entertainment and amusement, It

830
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: communicates to a child that life is all about them.

831
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: And if we're thinking about this as Christian parents, like

832
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: my greatest goals for my children is for them to

833
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: love and know God and to love others. I mean,

834
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: those are the two great commandments, and that is the

835
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 2: life I'm trying to train my children into. I recognize

836
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 2: I can't control their soul, but I want to try

837
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: to lay the groundwork to train them towards what I

838
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: want for them. What I know is the path to

839
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: true human flourishing. I mean, it's so clear from the Bible,

840
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: this is what humans were made to do. We were

841
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: made to worship and glorify God, to love and know Him,

842
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: and then to love others. And the screen just inherently

843
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 2: undermines a parent's job and calling and what they're trying

844
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 2: to do in that because screen teaches them to love themselves.

845
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: I mean, it's even like the social media apps.

846
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: You're projecting yourself out there for feedback and approval from

847
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 2: other people, and the algorithms are trying to learn you

848
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: and learn exactly what you like so it can feed

849
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: more of that content to you. And so just the

850
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: nature of the technology itself just teaches kids that life

851
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: is for entertainment, it's for their own pleasure, it's not

852
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: for service to God or service to others, and it's

853
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: just an inherently self centered technology. And I think you know,

854
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: any parent, if you think about it, you're like, well,

855
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 2: of course, I don't want my child to be self centered.

856
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: But just even the nature of the dopamine too, it

857
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 2: just it creates this addiction that just caves a child

858
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: in on themselves when we're trying to train them to

859
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: lift their eyes up to know and love God and

860
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 2: to lift their eyes out to look at the world

861
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: around them and to see how they can serve and

862
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: love and meet the needs of the people in their lives.

863
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: And so that is what I especially want Christian parents

864
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: to understand, is that our calling as Christian parents and

865
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 2: what we're trying to train our children into to be

866
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: worshipers of God is undermined by the nature of the

867
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: technology itself, regardless of the kinds of content on the screen.

868
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: And knowing and worshiping God results in our joy and

869
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: contentment in our create and in the way that we

870
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: are created, in our created order to worship our creator

871
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: and to love him and to know Him brings us

872
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: joy and contentment and rest and peace. And we know

873
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: that I don't need to convince anyone that the opposite

874
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: of that and self reflection and self obsession and self

875
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: entertaining and in the small devices does not lead to

876
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: rest and peace and joy. It does quite the opposite.

877
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: That's the easiest argument I could make to anyone, whether

878
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: you're a Christian or not. So and I know that

879
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: underlying all of this work for you is that, I mean,

880
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: it's it's a heart. You have a heart for for

881
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: loving people, because because you love God and yes, and

882
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: so how could you be best suited to show people

883
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: where true joy is? And you have found this niche,

884
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: which I think is is fantastic to say, Look, here's

885
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: a way that you could you could find true rest

886
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: in your life. You could get rid of this anxiety

887
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: that's crippling you. Here's a really effective way. And it's

888
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: with your phone. It's with your smartphone or your device

889
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: or your screen, which is which is not the irony

890
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 1: is not lost that people are watching this right now

891
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: on a device. So there are there are, there are positives.

892
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: We have to say that. But but when it comes

893
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: to kids, this is convicting for me.

894
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 4: I mean too. And I was just going to say

895
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 4: in your book, you say, as parents, we can go

896
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 4: and talk to our kids and say, look, Mommy and

897
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 4: Daddy thought we knew what we were doing, and we

898
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 4: made a mistake to change something that's right, and that's

899
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 4: that's it's okay I do and that's good to do

900
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 4: for them.

901
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 2: It is it's good to model that humility as parents.

902
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I have to confess to my kids all

903
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 2: the time for mistakes I've made or sins I've committed

904
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 2: against them. I think it's a great thing to model

905
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: as a parent. And yeah, like we were talking about earlier,

906
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's never too late to pivot and make

907
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: a change as parents. You know, we are doing the

908
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 2: best we can with the information we have at the time,

909
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: trying to live in wisdom, and when we get new

910
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: information and new insights, you know, that often should lead

911
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: us to make a change when we realize, oh, we

912
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: didn't realize this thing was harmful for you, Like we're

913
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: going to change that, and we can actually apologize and

914
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: say I'm sorry, I didn't realize. You know that this

915
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: tool that we've given you, this technology, is just too

916
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: powerful for you to have and to operate maturely at

917
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: this age, and so we're gonna take it away, and

918
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sorry that that's going to be it's

919
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 2: initially going to be uncomfortable for you, but I'm doing

920
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: this because I love you and I know that this

921
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 2: is what's going to be best for you. And I'm

922
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: asking you, you know, ask your parent for you to

923
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: trust me, right, because our children like that's what's so important,

924
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 2: is that they know that their parents are for their good,

925
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: even if they don't love those decisions we're making at

926
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: the time. These families that I spoke with all just

927
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: communicated that their decisions around technology were all done in

928
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: this context of love and these relationships of trust with

929
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: their kids, and that it wasn't just that they were

930
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: telling them, we're not giving you a smartphone, but they

931
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 2: actually explained why they really sought to educate their kids

932
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 2: on the harms and the dangers because they also wanted

933
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 2: their children to be aware of these things because they

934
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: know that they're going to have to navigate digital temptations

935
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 2: as an adult.

936
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: And so it's both.

937
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: I try to explain to parents, we're both protecting them

938
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: because that's our job as parents to do everything we

939
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: can to protect our kids from something we know is harmful.

940
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: And we do that, you know, by not giving them

941
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: a smartphone and social media, but.

942
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: We're also trying to prepare them.

943
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: We want them to make wise decisions as adults, and

944
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: so that's I spend a whole chapter in the book

945
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: kind of talking about that. How do we explain and

946
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: educate and then exemplify through our own use of technology

947
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 2: as parents the kind of relationship we want our children

948
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: to ultimately have with these technologies when they are adults.

949
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: And that is both done by not giving them something

950
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: that's too powerful for them before they are at an

951
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 2: age where they can maturely operate it, but it's also

952
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 2: preparing them by having all these conversations around those decisions,

953
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: because we want our kids to ultimately buy into those

954
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: decisions for themselves when they do leave our homes.

955
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: That probably means we shouldn't reward kids with screen time

956
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: or punish our kids by taking away screen time. That

957
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: would kind of undermine this whole conversation. Yeah, could I

958
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: ask you, Claire, so what is your personal routine with devices?

959
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: I mean, especially right now book release, you're doing a

960
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: lot of interviews and podcasts. How are you operating through

961
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: navigating through this season?

962
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked me, And that is

963
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 2: something I do think that as parents, right, like we

964
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: want to exemplify and so this book should cause us

965
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 2: to really reflect on our own relationships with technology. So

966
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: I just want to say, like, I've been convicted and

967
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: have changed a lot of my practices over the course

968
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: of writing this book, over the course of doing this research,

969
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 2: So I don't want to portray that I've had this

970
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 2: all figured out. I'm very much on this journey myself

971
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: and I'm constantly re evaluating it. It's one of the

972
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: conversations they feel like Caleb and I have the most,

973
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: is like how are we doing at distancing ourselves from

974
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: our devices? But some practices we've developed is we have

975
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: a phone box in our family that we try to

976
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: leave our phones in when we are at home with

977
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 2: our kids when we come home to just actually physically

978
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 2: separate ourselves from them so they're not always on us.

979
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: We also really try to practice like having a day

980
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: a week where we're really off of our phones. Normally

981
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: for us, that's usually like Saturday or Sunday, where we

982
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: just try to actually be off our phones like the

983
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: whole day, just kind of put them away for the

984
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: entire day so we can really be present with our kids.

985
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 3: And our family.

986
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: I also try to do as much as possible, like

987
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 2: on a computer. So I personally gave up my smartphone

988
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: I think about two years ago. Now I have it's

989
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: not quite a minimalist phone. It's like a healthy phone.

990
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: It's called the Wise phone. So it has some limited

991
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: apps on it, like GPS and some other things that

992
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: I genuinely need. But it doesn't have an Internet browser

993
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 2: or email, and so I really can't do very many

994
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: things on it. I have to wait for a time

995
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: to do those things on a computer, and so I

996
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: often then wait and do those at a time when

997
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 2: my kids are asleep taking naps, or they go down

998
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 2: to bed for the night, or yeah, or even if

999
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: I have to do something on a computer while they're awake,

1000
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 2: it's a lot easier for them to see what I'm doing.

1001
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: The computer screen is just a lot bigger, and I'll explain,

1002
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm sorry, mommy has to send a quick email.

1003
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,919
Speaker 2: I'm going to open my computer, I'm gonna send the email,

1004
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: and then I'm going to close it, like I'm not

1005
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: going to get stuck down a rabbit hole.

1006
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 3: The way they think it's just really easy to on

1007
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 3: a phone and.

1008
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: So I talk about these kind of practices we can

1009
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: develop as parents of having just more technological transparency with

1010
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 2: our kids. And so I opt for making phone calls

1011
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 2: as much as i can, more than texting, because because

1012
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: it's easier for my kids to understand what I'm doing

1013
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 2: on the phone if I'm talking to someone versus texting,

1014
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 2: or if I'm texting, I'm often narrating it to my kids.

1015
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: I know that kind of sounds crazy, but I want

1016
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 2: them to I want them to understand what I'm doing

1017
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: and actually be learning communication skills from me, you know,

1018
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 2: like I'll tell my son, I'm texting so and So's

1019
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: mommy that we're coming to meet them at the park,

1020
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: you know, and then he's like, oh, Okay, that's what

1021
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: she's doing, you know, on her phone. It's not such

1022
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 2: a black box to my kids. So those are some

1023
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: of our practices. I know a lot of other families

1024
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: I spoke to also, they actually got a landline phone

1025
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: because they didn't want to have to be kind of

1026
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: tethered to their devices or even have them next to

1027
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: their beds. They wanted to be able to sleep away

1028
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 2: from their cell phones, so they got a landline in

1029
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: case of emergencies, and they actually physically sleep a distant

1030
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: from their cell phones, and so I wouldn't even do

1031
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 2: that an alarm clock, There's.

1032
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 1: No way I would even get a landline. For hundreds

1033
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: and thousands of years, people have sleppt away from a phone. Yeah,

1034
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: they've dealt with emergency.

1035
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: It sounds so strange to us now, but yeah, so

1036
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 2: I think just trying to where we can. I explain

1037
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: to parents, it doesn't mean you have to give up

1038
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 2: your own smartphone, but I would encourage you to kind

1039
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 2: of ruthlessly eliminate apps on your phone and just ask

1040
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: yourself if this has to be legitimately done on a

1041
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 2: smartphone or if you can just wait and do that

1042
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 2: on a computer at a time when you're not, like

1043
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 2: out with your kids. Because I think the temptation towards efficiency,

1044
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: at least that's what I found in myself, was just

1045
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: too powerful with the smartphone, because I felt like if

1046
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 2: I was out at the park with my kids, I

1047
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 2: could also be placing Amazon order I needed to make.

1048
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: We're also responding to an email, and so really just

1049
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 2: trying to separate those things so I can be more

1050
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: present with my kids is something we really strived for.

1051
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: We're not getting more time.

1052
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 4: You know.

1053
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: It's like, like you said, you can go to the

1054
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 1: park and multitask and take care of that Amazon order,

1055
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: but somehow we're not gaining time when we do that,

1056
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: Like where's all the time? We're not getting any more

1057
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: of it. But what you're saying is it's encouraging because

1058
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: you're you're not the global warming activist that's taking the

1059
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 1: private jet all over the world. You know, You're you're saying, hey, look,

1060
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: I'm preaching this and I'm also living it at the

1061
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,479
Speaker 1: same time.

1062
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: I'm really striving to live it, not perfectly, but you know,

1063
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 2: step by step trying to do that. And I think,

1064
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: like what you were saying too, it's we're not getting

1065
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: more time, but we're also like when you're multitasking, you're

1066
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 2: missing out on so much. Like giving up my smartphone,

1067
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 2: I realized all the moments that I honestly was just

1068
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: missing by staring down at a phone. It's just it's

1069
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: so different to be fully present with the people that

1070
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: you're with in whatever situation you're with, like delighting in

1071
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 2: my children and what they're doing, and it's just it's

1072
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: you don't even know what you're missing when you're looking

1073
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 2: down at a screen until you take it away, and

1074
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 2: then you kind of lift your eyes up and you're

1075
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: like wow. When I was on my phone placing those

1076
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 2: Amazon orders, like I was missing real life happening right

1077
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 2: in front of me.

1078
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: I wonder where this is all going, you know, Like

1079
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: I know that this will be, this podcast will be,

1080
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: this conversation will probably be irrelevant in forty thirty forty years,

1081
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: but it will only be replaced by something maybe even

1082
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: more sinister than what we have. We won't always hold

1083
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: a device that'll change quickly. But I wonder where this is.

1084
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: Where it's going, I mean, or it's going to be

1085
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: a chip in the brain, you know, neurolink in the

1086
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: brain or something. But it has to start now. We

1087
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: have to we have to learn to tether ourselves or

1088
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: to sever ourselves.

1089
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 3: Now, yes, I do.

1090
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 2: I do explain that to parents when I'm talking about

1091
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 2: the book, because I'm sure you're following, like the Rise

1092
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: of AI. I get asked a lot about AI and

1093
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 2: the harms of that to kids, and I would just say, listen,

1094
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: like AI is grafting on to the attention economy, and

1095
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 2: so what that means is it's it's there's a profit

1096
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 2: model behind it, and the products then are being integrated

1097
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 2: with social media and smartphones again to make them highly

1098
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 2: immersive and addictive to us. I mean, AI is only

1099
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 2: going to make these things more addictive because it's going

1100
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 2: to learn us, it's going to be more individualized, and sadly,

1101
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 2: it's going to mimic more like a human interaction. We're

1102
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 2: seeing that with these AI chatbots and kids, and it's

1103
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: so difficult for children to discern that it's not a

1104
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: real person that's talking to them, this is a computer.

1105
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: And so I think I just explained to parents, like

1106
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: the tech exit is more urgent than ever they like

1107
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 2: you were saying, like these problems aren't going away. In fact,

1108
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 2: they're only going to get worse as AI is integrated

1109
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: into all these things that are already existing and just

1110
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: make it even more addictive and immersive. And my fear

1111
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 2: is that as much as the virtual world often feels

1112
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: more like reality to kids in the real world, like

1113
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 2: we were talking about with the desensitization, and they're just

1114
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,479
Speaker 2: kind of living in this virtual world, that's only going

1115
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 2: to increase the more that these AI technologies, the metaverse

1116
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: and things make the virtual world more immersive to a child.

1117
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,919
Speaker 2: And so I would just urge parents that the time

1118
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 2: to kind of say no to smartphones and social media

1119
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 2: is now. They're only going to become more dangerous to

1120
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 2: our kids.

1121
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 1: Kids that were born what two thousand and say thirteen

1122
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: or fourteen would have been children that are born that

1123
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: this is all they've ever known. Is And I know

1124
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: cell phones have been around, lock iPhones have been around

1125
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: a lot longer, but I'm saying, as far as everyone

1126
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: has them in their hand, to a child born after

1127
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: what twenty thirteen, it's just that's all they've known. Yes, Yeah,

1128
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: it's scary stuff.

1129
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And not to be like too dramatic, but I've

1130
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 2: I actually have a lot of hope for this kind

1131
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 2: of rising generation of parents because we have more information

1132
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: than the last generation did. I really actually feel for

1133
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 2: the parents who got social media and smartphones thrown at

1134
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 2: them and when their kids were in the teen years

1135
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 2: and they just had no idea the harms behind them.

1136
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 2: So I just want to encourage parents. Like part of

1137
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 2: the reason that I was so excited to write this

1138
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: book is I'm like, we actually like have the tools now,

1139
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: like we have the information, the research to show is, Okay,

1140
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 2: these things are harmful, and we have the example of

1141
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 2: other parents to say, well, actually it's possible to not

1142
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 2: do these things. And so but I do just try

1143
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 2: to emphasize then, like to this rising generation that we

1144
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 2: grew up without smartphones, but that's pretty quickly going to

1145
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 2: change in the generations of parents coming behind us, and

1146
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 2: kind of in some sense, I almost feel like we're

1147
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,240
Speaker 2: kind of the last chance generation, Like we're the last

1148
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 2: generation of parents who remembers a childhood without smartphones surrounding them.

1149
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 2: And so I'm like, if we can't do this for

1150
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: our kids, like, how are we going to pave the

1151
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 2: way for the generations behind us that have grown ups

1152
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 2: completely surrounded by smartphones. So all of to say is

1153
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 2: I do feel like I have a lot of hope

1154
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 2: with these the newer generations of parents because of the

1155
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 2: awareness that we now have and the research that we

1156
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 2: now have. And I would just say to you, like,

1157
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 2: we have to do this because of the sake of

1158
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 2: the generations of parents coming behind us who are not

1159
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 2: going to have the memories that we do of a

1160
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 2: childhood without smartphones in everybody's hands. And so I do

1161
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 2: think we're kind of at a tipping point, is how

1162
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 2: I feel, and I'm hoping that this book will help

1163
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 2: tip our culture in the right direction.

1164
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 1: Oh that's so good. I mean we are the last

1165
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 1: We're the last ones to say, read a book, ride

1166
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 1: a bike, play with Plato, draw a picture, climb a tree,

1167
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,919
Speaker 1: build a fort. Yeah, we're the last ones that could

1168
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: say we didn't have it and we're just fine.

1169
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, that's right.

1170
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: So how do we how do we how do we

1171
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: wrap this up? Because I feel like we could just.

1172
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 3: We could go on with this first.

1173
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's such an amazing conversation.

1174
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1175
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: The other day, Lincoln, our eleven year old, said, Daddy,

1176
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 1: could I get on your iPad and look at chat

1177
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: GBT after I do my math homework to see if

1178
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: I'm right? And I was like no. He's like why,

1179
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: I just want to see if I did it right

1180
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:48,760
Speaker 1: or if there's another way to do the math problem.

1181
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: I'm like no, he said, but why, And I said,

1182
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: because you don't have a fully developed brain, so you

1183
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: don't need another brain telling your brain what to do.

1184
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: So that it's funny think storations do it before you

1185
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 2: learned the right answer. When you handed your homework in,

1186
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 2: like I don't know, like you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1187
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 2: how to wrap this up? I guess, you know, there's

1188
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 2: so much more to be said. I would encourage people,

1189
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 2: like if you're if you're wondering how to do this,

1190
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 2: like try just truly like read the book The Tech

1191
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 2: Exit because there are just so many examples and stories

1192
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 2: I give of how families have done this to give

1193
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: you the courage and hope to do this in your

1194
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 2: own family. But I would just really encourage parents to

1195
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 2: talk to other parents, like I want to help create

1196
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 2: communities that are doing this together, because there is power

1197
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 2: in numbers, and you know, for every parent that opts out,

1198
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: you make it easier on the next parent, And so

1199
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: I would just encourage you to even think about, you know,

1200
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: reading this book with a group of other parents. I

1201
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 2: wrote a discussion guide to accompany the book that's available

1202
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: at the tech exit dot com because I wanted actually

1203
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 2: groups of parents in churches, in schools and neighborhoods like

1204
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 2: reading this together because my hope is really to spark

1205
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 2: a movement that changes the culture. Because we didn't truly

1206
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: get into all the details of this, but you know,

1207
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,919
Speaker 2: there are actually some harms of these technologies that even

1208
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: individual families can't fully shield our kids from. Like, I'm

1209
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 2: very aware that the entire social dynamics and social environment

1210
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 2: for kids these days are affected by social media and smartphones,

1211
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 2: even for the kids that are on them, and I

1212
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 2: don't want to accept that as the answer. I want

1213
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 2: parents to come together and provide the collective solutions that

1214
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: we need to really push these things out of childhood

1215
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 2: entirely so that we do preserve an in person social

1216
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: environment for our kids. And so I just would encourage

1217
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 2: other parents, like, you know, don't be afraid to do this,

1218
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 2: but also like don't do it alone, like really truly

1219
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 2: talk to other parents and invite them to do this

1220
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 2: with you, because I think almost any parent doesn't want

1221
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: to give their kids a smartphone social media. Like I

1222
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: never met a parent who said that they like intentionally

1223
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: wanted them to learn how to like use this technology.

1224
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 2: It was always they felt pressured into it. And so

1225
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: I want parents to know that they can like break

1226
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 2: free from this trap and so invite other parents to

1227
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 2: do this with you. I think a lot of parents

1228
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 2: feel stuck and just that invitation to say, hey, we're

1229
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 2: doing this do you want to you know, opt out

1230
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 2: with us, Like, let's do this together our families so

1231
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 2: our kids will both not be on smartphones.

1232
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 3: I think so many parents are just.

1233
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 2: Waiting, you know, they're eager to do this and they

1234
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 2: just need the invitation and the help to know how

1235
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 2: to do it.

1236
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: So for people that don't read the book, do you

1237
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 1: have like a thirty second summary on TikTok or something

1238
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: that we could like, you know, just kidding, No, no, no,

1239
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: No'm just kidding. We're going to link the tech Exit.

1240
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: We're going to leak the the place to find this

1241
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: book on in our description here and then you know

1242
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: what I hope from you, Claire, is that let's see

1243
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: in thirteen years, when your first one graduates, you could

1244
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: start either have another book ready to go on how

1245
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 1: it went, how the eighteen years went at home with

1246
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 1: no no screens and no devices, because that would be

1247
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: a great follow up.

1248
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1249
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: I almost feel like I should tell my eighteen year

1250
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 2: old that he should write that book. Yeah, tell me

1251
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 2: how it was living as a tech exit kid all

1252
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 2: those eighteen years.

1253
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: I like we're going to look forward to that book

1254
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: in a decade. Yeah, yeah, Clai, thank you. I know

1255
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: your time is valuable and you've given some to us,

1256
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,919
Speaker 1: and I just I appreciate you so much, so much

1257
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: for your heart in this, your heart for children and

1258
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: families and all the research and all this, so many

1259
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: interviews and so many hours that you've put in for

1260
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: so that we could all reap the benefits of that.

1261
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: So thank you. Your work is so valuable for us.

1262
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.

1263
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Thank you both so much for having me.

1264
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: Really enjoyed getting to talk with you all.

1265
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for hanging out with me on

1266
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: this episode of the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate you being here.

1267
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: If you're listening right now, go ahead and rate today's podcast.

1268
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: It helps more folks find the show. And if you're

1269
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: tuning in on the iHeartRadio app, you could actually set

1270
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 1: this podcast as one of your presets, which is cool

1271
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Speaker 1: that way. I'm just one tap away. If you're watching

1272
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: on YouTube, don't forget to hit like and subscribe so

1273
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: you don't miss any new episodes. And if you've got

1274
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: a question you want answered right here on the show,

1275
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: just email me podcast at grangersmith dot com. I'd love

1276
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Thanks again for being here. We'll

1277
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: see you next time, ye ye