1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Term career goals. 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: This episode is airing in early December of twenty twenty five. 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: I am going to be interviewing doctor Rebecca Thompson, who 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: is the author of the new book Held Together, which 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: is about the complicated journey to motherhood both for her 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: and or a number of other women. In her journey 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: to motherhood, she had several miscarriages that involved life threatening complications, 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: including an a topic pregnancy. She has two kids now, 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: wonderfully we're happy about that, so we're thrilled that work out. 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: But her experiences really helped inform her work both with 22 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: women and children as a physician, and she's going to 23 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: talk a lot about that. And how her personal experience 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: formed her clinical experience. But I know many people listening 25 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: to this, I mean, so slight trigger warning here of 26 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: topics of fertility. 27 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: Are complicated for you. We are not offended. 28 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: If you want to skip this episode entirely, we'll be 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 2: back next week with something a little bit lighter. But 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: many people's journeys to having their families are more complicated, 31 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: or at least not as set plans as you might think, right, 32 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm curious, Sarah, when you were younger, did 33 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: you have thoughts of like when you would have your children, 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: or how many children you would have, or things like that. 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: When I was much younger, like before med school, I 36 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 3: honestly hadn't given any concrete thought as to where having 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 3: a baby would fit in my training. I almost felt like, well, 38 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: I'm not supposed to think about that. That's like an 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 3: anti feminist line of thought. I should just do my 40 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 3: job and like everything will happen. However, I met Josh 41 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 3: when I was in the very beginning of med school, 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 3: and we were married like. 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: At the end of med school. 44 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 3: So two thousand and six was our wedding. I had 45 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 3: one more year of med school after that, and we'd 46 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: been together since two thousand and two, and he is 47 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: six years older than me. So by the end of 48 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: my late twenties, I was like, I want three kids. 49 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 3: I want to get pregnant, let's go. I'm ready to go. 50 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 3: And then, I mean, I've told the story on this 51 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 3: podcast before, but that did not go as quickly as 52 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 3: I imagined. You know, it was funny because I don't know, 53 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 3: I just remember all the residents around me getting pregnant, 54 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 3: like the pediatrics. Residents were like the most vital bunch, 55 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 3: including my friend who like accidentally got pregnant before her 56 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 3: wedding while I was trying so hard to get pregnant. 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: It was a lot. But yeah, I think I wanted 58 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 3: my kids younger than I ended up having them. Obviously, 59 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: it ended up working out amazingly for me. But yeah, 60 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: when I first kind of laid into it, I thought 61 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 3: it would be super straightforward and that maybe i'd be 62 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 3: like done having kids by fellowship and I'd have three 63 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: and it would be great. 64 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean, and it could be hard to 65 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember. I don't even remember if I'd 66 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: had a number in mind. I don't believe that my 67 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: ideal planning it out was five spread out over twelve years. 68 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: I don't think that was the grand life plan, although 69 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: I am happy with it as it is now. The 70 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: life goes in the way it goes. But of course 71 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: the issue with this is that people like to plan, 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: and we need to think about life plans and making 73 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: sort of longer term plans. And yet when you are 74 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: trying to have a family, that could be complicated to do. 75 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: Sarah right, like, I mean, did you were. 76 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: You thinking about going into your residency with that in mind, 77 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: like the timing of when you would have your baby, 78 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: but then that could move or things like that. 79 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I want to correct what I said. I 80 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 3: said something like I wanted to have them all done 81 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 3: by fellowship. I meant by the end of fellowship. So 82 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I'll have one in the middle 83 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 3: of residency, and then I'll have one the beginning of 84 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 3: fellowship and one at the end of fellowship, and great, 85 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 3: I'll have the I also had my mind that like 86 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 3: I had to have them before thirty five or they'd 87 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: come out wrong, which was like not medically correct at 88 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 3: all and ridiculous. And I also had Genevieve at thirty 89 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: seven and it was great, but no, I didn't like 90 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 3: I guess. Okay, So our residency program had this thing 91 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 3: called the Newborn Elective that was actually launched while I 92 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: was in residency and may have been responsible for some 93 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 3: of the baby boom because it was basically an extra 94 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 3: month of maternity leave. And I was like, this is amazing, 95 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, It's a free month to spend with 96 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 3: your baby, and I'll get residency credit for that and 97 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: I won't have to take like a super abbreviated lead. 98 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: I can take like that full twelve weeks and maybe 99 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: even graduate on time. But then I couldn't get pregnant 100 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 3: dury residency, like never got to use that newborn month. 101 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 3: My fellowship did not come with a newborn month. But anyway, 102 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: it all worked out, So I guess yes and no. 103 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you have to live your life. 104 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: And I think in general, we feel like, you know, 105 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: make your plans, and if you have to change them, 106 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: you will. But in many cases, you don't want to 107 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: not do things because you might have a baby at 108 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: a certain time in the future, because you know, if 109 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 2: you do, great and everyone will adjust and they will 110 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 2: figure it out. Whereas it's sort of when things don't happen, 111 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: not having those plans to look forward to it can 112 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: be challenging. Anyway, we will hear what Rebecca has to 113 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: say about all this. Well, Sarah and I are delighted 114 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: to welcome doctor Rebecca Thompson to the show. So, Rebecca, 115 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Oh? 116 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 4: Well, thanks so much for this opportunity. I've really been 117 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 4: looking forward to talking you well. I am a family 118 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 4: medicine and public health physician in Portland, Oregon, and I've 119 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 4: always loved to write, and whatever field I find myself 120 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 4: in over the years, whatever I study, I always gravitate 121 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 4: toward the storytelling parts of it. So this book is 122 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 4: really the culmination of that. And I would say, you know, 123 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 4: in terms of the background of how it came together, 124 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 4: when I was just finishing up my training and starting 125 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 4: out on that first attending level job, that first beyond 126 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 4: training job, I went through a really dramatic string of 127 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 4: pregnancy complications. It was so isolating, even as a person 128 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 4: with a really fantastic support system and wonderful partner and friends, 129 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 4: Even as a physician who understood the system, I was 130 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 4: used to being the person who would help others and 131 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 4: navigate the system with them for them, you know, advocating 132 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 4: for them. And I even had a professional network. But 133 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 4: in spite of all that, when I became a patient, 134 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 4: I felt like I just didn't know where to start. 135 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 4: I didn't know how to make sense of what was 136 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 4: happening to me. 137 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, your journey to motherhood was, in fact incredibly complicated. 138 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: Maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit about that. 139 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, so when we decided to start thinking about having 140 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 4: a family, we initially wanted to try to have biological kids, 141 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 4: and we figured as I was finishing training, was a 142 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 4: good time logistically to think about that in professional life 143 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 4: and balancing all the things. But really my perspective changed 144 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 4: really quickly on how family life and professional life could 145 00:07:54,040 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 4: intersect in this way, because it didn't just happen simply 146 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 4: for us. And more to the point, I feel like 147 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 4: because it was so isolating and I didn't really know 148 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 4: how to explain what was going on, Things kept happening 149 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 4: so quickly, complications were mounting so steadily that what was 150 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 4: really notable is that other women when I did give 151 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 4: the littlest glimpse into what was happening to us. Other 152 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 4: women started sharing their own stories too, And the biggest 153 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 4: part of this all is that, even toward the beginning 154 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 4: of the complications, which included three losses, two of them 155 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 4: life threatening to me, and then just a whole host 156 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 4: of other things going forward, I really felt like I 157 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 4: wanted to find a way to preserve what we were 158 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 4: learning by sharing these stories with each other and really 159 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 4: to create something useful out of it, making meaning. This idea, 160 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 4: I know this resonates with your work too, And this 161 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 4: is the pivotal point of hell together is how do 162 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 4: we make meaning? Not to accept that everything has a 163 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 4: meaning and everything happens for a reason, nope, rejecting that, 164 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 4: How can we take our experiences and let them find 165 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 4: ways to help define us and our missions and our 166 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 4: professional and personal lives, And so feeling like this was 167 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 4: such a privilege as a doctor to have these stories 168 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 4: that for people to be willing to share them with me. 169 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 4: How could I translate this into something that could serve 170 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 4: a greater purpose beyond my own family's challenging path to parenthood. 171 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: Which was very challenging. 172 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: I mean, just to tell our listeners, you know, I 173 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: know you had at least one EC topic pregnancy yep, 174 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: and you maybe can tell people who are maybe not 175 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: familiar medically that's life threatening. 176 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. It's one of the leading causes of 177 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 4: maternal mortality, and certainly in places where there's less access 178 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 4: to medical care than we typically have in most parts 179 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 4: of the US, very very dangerous. Started out with sort 180 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 4: of an ordinary miscarriage quickly into the next pregnancy being 181 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 4: an X topic, which is a situation when the embryo 182 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 4: implants outside of where it should be so it should 183 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 4: the egg comes from the ovary, is fertilized in the tube, 184 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 4: the Filippian tube, travels to the uterus and implants in 185 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 4: the uterus if all goes as planned. If not, the 186 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 4: most commonplace it can get stuck is essentially in the 187 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 4: Filippian tube. It can also implant on the ovary or 188 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 4: at the wrong edge of the uterus, like along the cervix, 189 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 4: or even float out into the abdominal cavity. Because the 190 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 4: ovary the Filippian tube they communicate with a space between 191 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 4: them actually, so it can even end up in the abdomen. 192 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 4: But for me, it was sort of the most usual 193 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 4: kind of EC topic, which is in the tube, and 194 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 4: it's so risky because as that embryo grows, the tube 195 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 4: is very tiny. It can't expand as the uterus does, 196 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 4: so that larger and larger mass of cells, if you will, 197 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 4: is putting pressure on the tube and ultimately can cause 198 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 4: it to rupture, which can cause life threatening bleeding. And 199 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 4: many women around the world do die of this. 200 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 201 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it must have been so scary to go through. 202 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 2: And then but you're having this string of bad luck. 203 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you said you have a normal miscarriage, then 204 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 2: you have an EC topic pregnancy, but then even the 205 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: next one is what you call a molar pregnancy. 206 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 4: I believe, yes, yes, And even for the EC topic, 207 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 4: the ordinary stuff didn't work. I'm giving all the spoilers here, 208 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 4: but I think you know it's still different to read 209 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 4: it and walk through it with each of us and 210 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 4: the stories that we go through. We tried the ordinary measures, 211 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 4: the medications, the things that are supposed to help the 212 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 4: EC topic resolve on its own, and I still ended 213 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 4: up in urgent almost emergency, pretty urgent surgery. In spite 214 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 4: of trying all the things that work for you know, 215 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 4: ninety five plus percent of people in my situation, nothing 216 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 4: went to plan. Even the complicated parts were unusually complicated. 217 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: And then yeah, the third pregnancy was what's called a 218 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 4: molar pregnancy, kind of one of the most feared complications 219 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 4: because it's not well understood and there are a few 220 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 4: different varieties of molar pregnancy and that might be beyond 221 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 4: the scope of this, but essentially, the placenta doesn't develop 222 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 4: in the typical way and so it can become invasive. 223 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 4: The placenta is normally an organ that you want to 224 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 4: you know, lock in well to the uterism, provide nourishment 225 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 4: to the baby and blood float like. This is all 226 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 4: it's part of the system with the bbilical cord. This 227 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 4: is all great, but essentially this goes unchecked in a 228 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 4: way in a molar pregnancy. And this can be because 229 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 4: of a genetic difference in the embryo or some things. 230 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 4: We're not always really sure why it happens, and so 231 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 4: essentially this is a pregnancy that is not going to 232 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 4: create a living child, and furthermore, can become cancerous and 233 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 4: metastasize into a form called a malignant correo carcinoma, So 234 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 4: you can't get pregnant again for a while after intensive 235 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 4: monitor so you go from if you're intentionally trying to 236 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 4: have a biological kid, you're trying, you're trying, you're trying, 237 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 4: and then all of a sudden you have to flip 238 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 4: everything and being incredibly careful to not get pregnant for 239 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 4: many months, to be monitored and make sure that those 240 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 4: hormones are dropping as they should. It inverts all your 241 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 4: expectations and hopes. 242 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: And this is such a difficult journey. I mean going 243 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: through that. You know, you're trying three times and then 244 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: you know it goes. Now you're trying with one fallopian tube, 245 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: right right, But then I mean you for I mean 246 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: not to spoil things too much for our listeners, but 247 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:39,719 Speaker 2: you do have two children and I do. 248 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 4: Well you know that from reading the author Bioye's So 249 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 4: can you spoil that? 250 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: The courage to keep trying after all. 251 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 4: That it was hard? Oh, you know, And I want 252 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 4: to say one of the most hopeful things that I 253 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 4: learned that I was really surprised by. Yes, I lost a 254 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 4: two in an ovary because of the ectopic rupture and 255 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 4: the failed medical treatment, medical managem attempt, but I was 256 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 4: as a physician something I didn't even know. It doesn't 257 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 4: affect your fertility having one ovary and one tube because 258 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 4: we don't alternate. They didn't teach us a medical school. 259 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 4: You don't go back and forth between one over and 260 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 4: the other. If you have two, it's just whichever egg 261 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 4: is ready that month that cycle. So actually that didn't 262 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 4: change anything about fertility, about my cycles. It's just that 263 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 4: there's only one overy left to do the work. 264 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So that. 265 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 4: Was like incredibly I remember being told that, sitting in 266 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 4: the exam room and worrying about I think what most 267 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: women would think, now my chances are cut in half, 268 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 4: and I remember the ob telling me, no, no, that 269 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 4: you're fine, that part is fine. My mind was completely 270 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: blown by that. 271 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: It's amazing. 272 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 4: It was the most hopeful thing I heard during the 273 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 4: whole process. 274 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so happily, Yes, two children. Now we're going 275 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: to take a quick ad break, and then we're going 276 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: to come back and talk about sort of ways to 277 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 2: talk with people going through this journey and then how 278 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: this has informed your life since. 279 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: Well, I am back. 280 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: Talking with doctor Rebecca Thompson, who's been talking about her 281 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: complicated journey to motherhood and her new book Held Together, 282 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: where she shares her story, and that of many other 283 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: women who have had complicated paths to motherhood as well. 284 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: So you've learned, I'm sure a lot in the course 285 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: of this process of you know, the ways people talk 286 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: to a young married couple about when are you guys 287 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: having kids yet? 288 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: And stuff like that. 289 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: Of course you're going through tragedy after tragedy, and the 290 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: course of doing that, what have you learned about how 291 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: people should mindfully talk with other people in their lives 292 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: about this experience, it just. 293 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 4: Taught me so much about how we never have any 294 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 4: idea what other people are going through. You know, I 295 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 4: thought I knew that. I did know that at some level. 296 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: As a physician, I have always loved hearing people's stories. 297 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 4: You know, I came at medicine from as an anthropology 298 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 4: major in college. I've always loved life stories. I ended 299 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 4: up in medicine kind of accidentally after the fact, with 300 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 4: a post back night school kind of a situation, and 301 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 4: so that's of course why I was drawn to primary care. 302 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 4: You're trying to make sense of people's stories and help 303 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 4: them make sense of their stories and what those say 304 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 4: about their health. So, you know, I feel like we 305 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 4: all walk around with these hidden held If you will 306 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 4: stories that are not obvious on the surface, and if 307 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 4: we're really lucky, we might get to hear those kinds 308 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: of stories from some people that we intersect with whose 309 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 4: paths we cross. But in medical professions and healing professions 310 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 4: and service professions, I feel like we're in a uniquely 311 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 4: privileged and power full place to advocate for listening more 312 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 4: deeply well. 313 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: And so this has informed your entire work, I mean, 314 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: your experience. 315 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 2: After you had these complicated you decided to change how 316 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: you were going to train and the field you went into. 317 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 4: I did. I was initially working more in public health 318 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 4: and environmental public health, especially focusing on children's health, things 319 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 4: like environmental cancer exposure. You know, how environmental exposures might 320 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 4: lead to pediatric cancers. I just done a lot of 321 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 4: research on that and how survivorship after childhood cancer affected 322 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 4: people's lives and how to support them. And as I 323 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 4: was going through this, and after going through this, I 324 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 4: received some not great care where diagnoses were missed and 325 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 4: things fell through the cracks that really shouldn't have that 326 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 4: made the situations a lot worse than they even needed 327 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 4: to be. But more importantly, I received some truly life 328 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 4: saving care and you see that in the book with 329 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 4: My Obstetricians specifically really embodies that. Devora. She and I 330 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 4: met in the emergency room during the EC topic and 331 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 4: she that was now almost twenty years ago, eighteen years ago, 332 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 4: and she went on to be such an important person 333 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 4: in my life, and I hope me and hers as well. 334 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 4: Her story is woven in the book with mine, but 335 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 4: at the very end, among these other twenty some women, 336 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 4: twenty one women whose stories you learn, you see her 337 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 4: story of how she came to be this incredible person 338 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 4: who could care for me in the way that she 339 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 4: would have wanted to be careful if the tables had 340 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 4: been turned. So it was that kind of care that 341 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 4: inspired me to give back myself and I ended up 342 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 4: doing a second residency at that point in family medicine. 343 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 4: Now I had to make that commitment. I had that 344 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 4: opportunity arise right after the third loss, before I knew 345 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 4: if we would be able to become at least biological parents, 346 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 4: and knowing that if I act a residency, not only 347 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 4: did that make it trickier fertility wise, and like just 348 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 4: if I could be pregnant, how that would be hard 349 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 4: to manage as a busy working, pregnant person. But how 350 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 4: I mean even pursuing adoption, pursuing foster parent, pursuing fertility treatments. 351 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 4: That's really really hard on our resident schedule and salary 352 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 4: and emotionally, it's incredibly difficult to commit to a program 353 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 4: that I was seeking out because of its strength and 354 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 4: maternity care and pediatrics, and I would be taking care 355 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 4: of lots of families, attending a lot of deliveries. That's 356 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 4: why I chose the program. But oh my gosh, it's 357 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 4: just terrifying to think about what if I kept having 358 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 4: all these complications or like what if I could never 359 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 4: even get pregnant again? And how would we even figure 360 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 4: it all out? Yeah? 361 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: So very challenging. 362 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: But I mean all of that, the schedule aspect of 363 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: building a family, if it is not. 364 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: Straightfward, even if it is right, like. 365 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it's not sitting in any sitting. 366 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 2: In prenatal care if you are a busy working person, 367 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: and especially if you have irregular hours. 368 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: I get a hospital absolutely. 369 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, how are you able to manage that with I 370 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 2: mean all the medical care you went through? 371 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 4: Yeah? Well initially, so I was a resident through a 372 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 4: big chunk of it. And then I was kind of 373 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 4: new faculty, very very junior faculty, so I got all 374 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 4: of my care where I was working, and I would, yeah, 375 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 4: I'd have to pop over for an hour for an 376 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 4: appointment in between different meetings and things. It was really challenging, 377 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 4: and interestingly because Devora, who I would have loved to 378 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 4: have kept being an obstetrician through once we did end 379 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 4: up pregnant and it was going better at that point 380 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 4: for the fourth time and then the fifth. I would 381 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 4: have wanted her to be my OBE, but she had 382 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 4: graduated and she'd moved to into a private practice, so 383 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 4: I couldn't follow her because and I talk about that, 384 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 4: I really couldn't make time to go to her practice 385 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 4: that was a couple of miles away in town. I 386 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 4: had to stay with the university, which it worked out fine. 387 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 4: It was great, and ultimately I was able to go 388 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 4: back to her care once I finished my residency and 389 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 4: could be more flexible in my setting my own clinic 390 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 4: hours and such. But you sometimes are constrained in where 391 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 4: you can see care based on the logistics too. 392 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 393 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 4: Absolutely, and that's even in a big city. 394 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you were managing a residence schedule with 395 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: a newborn, which what did your life look like through that? 396 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 4: Well, I was either pregnant or breastfeeding for all but 397 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 4: about ten ten and a half months of that three 398 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 4: plus year residency, and I did, as most parents do, 399 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 4: especially moms who have or adopt kids during residency, My 400 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 4: graduation date shifted back those ten and ten weeks that 401 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 4: I had taken off from maternity leave. So yeah, it 402 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 4: was just really there was a lot of pumping during 403 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 4: breaks in small rooms and behind curtains, and using weird 404 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 4: fridges to store milk in and having my husband fortune 405 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 4: enough fortunate to have a supportive partner. He would come 406 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 4: by and bring our son and I could feed him 407 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 4: or at least pass off the jar of milk. Just 408 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 4: a really lot of logistical challenges that I think many many, 409 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 4: many professional women and families face. 410 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: Absolutely escalated, but we are familiar with that. 411 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: Here, all right, We're going to take one more quick 412 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 2: ad break and then I'll be back with more from 413 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: Rebecca Thompson. Well, I am back talking with doctor Rebecca Thompson, 414 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: who's been talking about her need to motherhood and then 415 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: the many other stories she shares in her book Held Together. 416 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: So I'm curious what your daily life looks like now, 417 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: how you combine medical practice and then also your creative 418 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 2: work as well well. 419 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 4: That it's changed, and it changes constantly. It's changed so 420 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 4: much over the years. It's gone through so many different evolutions. 421 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 4: These days, I have two teenagers and the busy schedules 422 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 4: that always entails. I have been fortunate to spend a 423 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 4: good amount of my time in the last few months 424 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 4: focusing on getting these stories out there, getting this book 425 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 4: out there. It's been the most rewarding thing I've ever 426 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 4: done Professionally. I love taking care of patients, but as 427 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 4: I say in the introduction to this book, I feel 428 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 4: like these stories, this book held together has become my 429 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 4: practice of medicine, because while when I work clinically with 430 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 4: any individual or even family, it's really rewarding to those 431 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 4: interactions and that deep view and that deep impact on 432 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 4: someone's life when you can, you know, in the best situations, 433 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 4: But when I can gather these stories into something that 434 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 4: has a greater meaning beyond just our individual experiences, I 435 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 4: feel like it's that population level intervention where I can 436 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 4: really have act and all of our stories can weave 437 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 4: together to create this beautiful synergi justic hoal. So, while 438 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 4: I still do keep a foot in the door clinically, 439 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 4: and I do these days, most of what I've been doing, 440 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 4: I was doing a bunch of tallemedicine even before the 441 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 4: pandemic started, to get better access to people in more 442 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 4: remote communities like out here in Oregon, we have a 443 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 4: lot of more rural communities and people could at least 444 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 4: call in and get advice about whether to drive an 445 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 4: hour or two to the er or not. And then 446 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 4: I do a bunch of work in the community of 447 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 4: volunteering and working as a physician at community events like 448 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 4: sporting events and things like that. To go back to 449 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 4: my sort of wilderness and emergency medicine roots, which that's 450 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 4: another story from before this wilderness. 451 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: What does that mean to me? 452 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 4: It's about being resourceful with whatever you have in the moment, 453 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 4: which is also the perfect metaphor for this whole book. 454 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. So what is next for you? 455 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 2: Like, I mean, are you going to return sort of 456 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: to more regular clinical practice as time goes on. 457 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 4: I don't feel like I'm ready to decide what's next 458 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 4: beyond kind of what I'm doing in this immediate time, 459 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 4: because everything about sharing these stories has been so incredible, 460 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 4: I just want to focus on that and keep other 461 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 4: options open. But my next goal, if you will, that 462 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 4: ties into the clinical side of things as well as 463 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 4: the writing side of things, is I think these stories 464 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 4: are an incredible tool and resource for the next generation 465 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 4: of healthcare professionals. So I've just started to really collaborate 466 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 4: with some of the medical school's residency programs narrative medicine 467 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 4: programs around the country and organize zoom events and if 468 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 4: it's local, you know, some in person things out here 469 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 4: in Oregon. And I really want to get these kinds 470 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 4: of conversations going in all not just in physician communities, 471 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 4: but physicians, nurses, jewelers, social workers, physical therapists, pharmacists. I mean, 472 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 4: this just applies to so many field psychology and I've 473 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 4: developed a really robust set of discussion guides that are 474 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 4: great for that as well as for kind of book 475 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 4: clubs and like regular people with an interest in medicine. 476 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 4: So I feel like by getting these resources, connecting these 477 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 4: resources to these learning communities, that's how I can really 478 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 4: help shape and by I actually mean all the women 479 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 4: in this book. Our stories can help share the kind 480 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 4: of care that's given to people clinically and reach far 481 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 4: beyond the impact that anyone story has. 482 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: Excellent Well, Rebecca, as you know, since you're a best 483 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 2: of both worlds listener. 484 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 4: I am. 485 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: We end each week with a love of the week. 486 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: I can go first because this episode is airing in 487 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: December and longtime listeners know I love my miniatures. I've 488 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 2: created several miniature scenes in my office and I have 489 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 2: now decorated some of them for Christmas. So I have 490 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 2: a miniature Christmas tree, I have a miniature gingerbread house. 491 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: So that's a. 492 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: Fun way to kind of celebrate this season and look 493 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: at that when I'm at my desk, and it brings 494 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: me incredible joy to see that. How about you, what's 495 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: your love of the week? 496 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: Oh? 497 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 4: That ties in because that's pretty seasonal. And I was 498 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 4: going to say, you know, from my perspective out here 499 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 4: in Oregon in the late fall kind of heading into 500 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 4: the winter, I think I'd have to say that my 501 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 4: love of the week is the changing seasons because we 502 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 4: have so many any great parks and trails here. I 503 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 4: love to walk and run in them, especially with my friends, 504 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 4: and this is the time of year that I most 505 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 4: love to do that because the changing colors are my 506 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 4: favorite thing of the leaves and the trees. But I 507 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 4: also just love it that it signals that cooler weather 508 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 4: coming in. I don't like to exercise in the heat, 509 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 4: but the cold actually makes me want to go out 510 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 4: more so I can come back in and get cozy 511 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 4: afterward too. And I think I just really appreciate all 512 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 4: the visible reminders this time of year that life is 513 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 4: change and growth and no season less forever. 514 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Oh, Rebecca, where can people find you? 515 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 4: My website? Everything's at the website, so it's Rebecca and 516 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 4: Thompson dot com and you'll find everything from a bunch 517 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 4: you know, endorsements and reviews to all the podcasts and 518 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 4: interviews and the discussion guides I mentioned, So I would 519 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 4: love it if people check those out, especially think about 520 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 4: how they could help join the conversation about all these 521 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 4: ideas and make these difficult topics more accessible to people. 522 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 4: And if anyone would like to order the book, it's 523 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 4: a great place to do it through the website because 524 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 4: there's a link that benefits Postpartum Support International doing Maternal 525 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 4: and Family mental health work, which is a fantastic organization, 526 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: So I'd love it if the proceeds go there. And 527 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 4: you can also order signed copies from my own local 528 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 4: books through out here and they can she be shipped anywhere. 529 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: So excellent. Well please check that out, and Rebecca, thank 530 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. 531 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 4: Thank you, thanks so much. 532 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: Well, that was great. 533 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: Lots to think about with Rebecca and her story of 534 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: how life informed her medical practice and more about her 535 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: book Held Together. So, Sarah, this one was posted on 536 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: my blog now that you are both book authors, because you, guys, 537 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: Sarah's book is coming out very very soon. How does 538 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: a book go from idea to finished copy? I would 539 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 2: love to hear a few more details about it, So 540 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: first Sarah tell us when it's out, and then you 541 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: can talk about the step. 542 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: A little bit. 543 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 3: It comes out December sixteenth and it is available for 544 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 3: pre order now. 545 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: Yay. So how did it go from idea to finish product? 546 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,719 Speaker 3: For you? Yeah, it took a really really long time. 547 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's like you can't. I don't 548 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 3: feel like I love to plan things, but I did 549 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 3: not plan how my book ended up coming to fruition. 550 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: I never would have thought that I would have really 551 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 3: benefited from actually taking my content from podcasts to course 552 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 3: to book. I kind of thought, oh, I'll just write 553 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 3: a book about planning, But I actually think the kind 554 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 3: of slow evolution of like, oh, I have these ideas, 555 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 3: and let me test out these ideas on actual people, 556 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 3: like get really really comfortable with the ideas, and then 557 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 3: turn it into a book was really actually worked out 558 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 3: incredibly well for me. So I guess this is just 559 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 3: to say, if you have an idea, I don't think 560 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 3: there's anything wrong with like letting it marinate or doing 561 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 3: some other book adjacent project first, because that might actually 562 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 3: lead to a better book. 563 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: I know it did for me. Yeah. 564 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: And you your process is that you actually heard from 565 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: a publisher that was interested in this. 566 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: Correct. 567 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: Yes, So Laura and I are different in this regard 568 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 3: because I don't have an agent, and I basically got 569 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: an email an editor who knew my stuff, and we met, 570 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: you know, we had a meeting, and I just liked 571 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: her so much, and I ended up deciding that even 572 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 3: though I from a business perspective knew that perhaps like 573 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 3: just going with someone who was offering to me might 574 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 3: not be the you know, I don't know most savvy, 575 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 3: I just really liked her, We connected, we clicked, and 576 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 3: I felt like this relationship was one worth building. And 577 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: I also felt like, you know what, I'm a first 578 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 3: time author, like how much panash do I really carry 579 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 3: at this point? And she seemed to really support me, 580 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 3: and I can say at this point it was a 581 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 3: fantastic decision because I really really enjoyed working with her. 582 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 3: I've had positive experiences with source Books, who is with 583 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 3: my publisher, and that is one way to go about things, 584 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 3: but it is not the normal way, and you can't 585 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 3: just like email an editor and send them stuff. The 586 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 3: only way you can kind of go agent list is 587 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 3: if an editor happens to be like, we've heard about 588 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 3: your idea and we would like to hear from you. 589 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 3: And then I crafted my book proposal. I did do 590 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 3: a you know, a whole official proposal, sent it to them, 591 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: had to wait for their whole team to review it. 592 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 3: They do these meetings where they review all their proposals, 593 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 3: and then I heard back from them with an offer. 594 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 4: So that's how it worked for me, and so far, 595 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 4: so good. 596 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they give you an advance and then you 597 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: write the book, but it has to be done usually 598 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: nine ten months ahead. 599 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: Of publication, right, you were frantically right Twitter Tight. Yeah, 600 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: it was like I had agreed. 601 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 3: I think I got to the proposal in like August, 602 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 3: and then I heard from them back in like September 603 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 3: and October and she's like, okay, I need your draft 604 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 3: by like February. And I'm like, oh my god, because like, 605 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 3: not only was that only four months, there's Christmas break 606 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 3: in there and thanksgin, like that is not And again 607 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 3: I teach all these planning courses, so it's like my 608 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 3: busy season as well, and I I will say that 609 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 3: I would not like to do my next book on 610 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 3: that short of a timeline, but it worked out. 611 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: It worked out because for it to come out this December. 612 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 2: That's kind of the way publishing goes. But what Sarah 613 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: was saying of if you want to write a book, 614 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: having a platform that people can see and see that 615 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: you are an expert in something and that you have 616 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 2: an audience is critical because it's rare that you get 617 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 2: a book deal based on just like you know something, 618 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: you also have to show that other people care about 619 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: that thing yet you know, and that you have an 620 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: audience that is available to buy the book. 621 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: So her teaching these courses. 622 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: They knew she had the material, they knew that people 623 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 2: had paid for this material already. Obviously, she has her 624 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: podcasts and has been doing those for a while, so 625 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: people can see that if Sarah puts something out into 626 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 2: the world, it won't be it won't be ignored. Nobody like, 627 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: nobody noticing whatsoever. So yeah, yeah, I mean I've been 628 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: doing this for a while. But when I did the 629 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 2: first book, you know, I got an agent, had an idea, 630 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 2: got an agent, wrote a proposal with the agent, and 631 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 2: then shopped that around. 632 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: Is either usual way to do this. 633 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 2: However, even with mine, my first time management book, one 634 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty eight Hours, it was a bit of 635 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: the other direction as well. I'd been shopping various proposals 636 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: that were sort of tangential to that for a while, 637 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: and I hadn't gotten a whole lot of traction. And 638 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 2: then heard from an editor over at Penguin who had 639 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: read some of my stuff just that I'd written, and 640 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: wanted to know if I wanted to discuss book ideas, 641 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: and I did so I came in with the material 642 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 2: and we shaped that together into one hundred and sixty 643 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 2: eight Hours. But then this past one I've got Big 644 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 2: Time coming out in May, and for that I have 645 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: a different agent now that I had found somebody who 646 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: wanted to work with me, and then she and I. 647 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: Crafted a full proposal. 648 00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: I mean it was like one hundred pages sample check 649 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 2: after overview, full marketing ideas and everything. But the result 650 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: of that is that we sent it around to many, 651 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 2: many publishers and got a couple of them interested in 652 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 2: it and bidding for it, and so that was kind 653 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: of fun. 654 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: So now I'm with Norton for my next two books 655 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: and very excited about. 656 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 3: It and a two book deal, which is super exciting 657 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 3: because and we're guaranteed to hear from Laura after Big Time. 658 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: You'll be hearing for me from a while. 659 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 660 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 661 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 2: And the actual writing itself is straightforward, but you just 662 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 2: write chapters and then the marketing is its whole separate thing. 663 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: But maybe we can do another Q and A on 664 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: that in the future of. 665 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: I need to listen to that Q and A, not 666 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: give that Q and ANYMOREA. Well you know it's everybody. 667 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 3: Actually, I will put a plug for the am Writing 668 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 3: podcast by kJ del Antonia. I feel like I've learned 669 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 3: a lot through there, and then also the Hungry Authors podcast, 670 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 3: which happens to be co hosted by my editor, So yeah, yeah, 671 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 3: those are. 672 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: The most light resources, great resources. Well, this has been 673 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: best of both worlds. I have been talking with doctor 674 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 2: Rebecca Thompson about her book Held Together. We will be 675 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: back next week with more on making work and life 676 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 2: fit together. 677 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening. 678 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 679 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you. 680 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 681 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join 682 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 683 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 2: work together.