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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours slay suspect Brian Koberger in a

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Speaker 2: court of law for arraignment. He chose to neither enter

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Speaker 2: a guilty or a not guilty plea, instead opting to

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Speaker 2: quote stand silent in the open courtroom. Why, I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here

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Speaker 2: at Fox Station and serious xem one eleven. First of all,

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Speaker 2: listen to this and miss Taylor.

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Speaker 3: He's mister Coberger prepared to please to these charges priority.

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Speaker 4: All the saxe because to mister Kilberger is send silent.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to enter and I'm guilty. Please, I show

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Speaker 4: has one, two, three, four and five. Now at this juncture,

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Speaker 4: I would say it has sixty days to give notice

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Speaker 4: of attention to see.

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Speaker 3: If gut Then was here.

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Speaker 2: Is anyone surprised, because I am not surprised. Coburger quote

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Speaker 2: stood silent. There are many theories about why he did it,

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Speaker 2: but let me just throw this one out there. We

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Speaker 2: hear him speak a little bit in the courtroom. We

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Speaker 2: hear certain answers. Could it be he did not want

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Speaker 2: to speak any more than he had to because he

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Speaker 2: did not want a witness, an ear witness from the

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Speaker 2: time of the murder. I'm referring specifically to Dylan Mortensen,

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Speaker 2: who heard someone at the time of the murder say

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Speaker 2: something to the effect of it's okay, I'll help you.

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Speaker 2: I'm here to help you. If Dylan Morton's here's Brian

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Speaker 2: Coberger's voice. Can she make a positive identification that it

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Speaker 2: was Coburger's voice she heard the night of the murders

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Speaker 2: at the murder Saine. The standing silent is in response

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Speaker 2: to this, all right, I'm going.

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Speaker 4: To read you the charges on the indictment, starting.

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Speaker 5: With count one.

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Speaker 4: Burglary as a felony under Idaho Code Section eighteen, at.

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Speaker 6: One four zero one and.

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Speaker 4: One four zero three. This allegis that you honor about

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Speaker 4: November thirteen, twenty twenty two, the Layta County, State of Idaho,

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Speaker 4: did unlawfully enter a residence located at one one two

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Speaker 4: two King Rode, Moscow with an attempt to commit the

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Speaker 4: felony crime of murder. This allegis that you honor about

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Speaker 4: November thirteen, twenty twenty two, the Laytak County, State of Idaho,

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Speaker 4: it unlawfully entrew a residence located at one one, two

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Speaker 4: two King rode Moscow with an attempt to commit the

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Speaker 4: felony crime of murder count two murder in the first degree.

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Speaker 4: This alleges that you honor about November thirteenth, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 4: in Laytak County, State of Idaho, did lowfully, unlawfully, deliberately,

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Speaker 4: with premeditation and with malice at fourtho killed and murder

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Speaker 4: Madison Mogan Kayla Cosalez Zana pernodle Ethan chapin is signed

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Speaker 4: on May sixteen, twenty twenty.

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Speaker 5: Three by the presiding Grand Jury Jury.

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Speaker 2: You are hearing the judge outlined the murder charges against him,

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Speaker 2: and also we hear for the first time mention of

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Speaker 2: the death penalty.

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Speaker 6: Listen or counts two, three, four, and five murder in

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Speaker 6: their first degree asimum penalties of life in prison or

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Speaker 6: the death penalty.

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Speaker 4: Find about the fifty thousand dollars are both fine and

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Speaker 4: a life in prison or the death penalty, restitution for

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Speaker 4: the victims economic losses resulting from crime. Also an additional

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Speaker 4: fine of up to five thousand dollars to be paid

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Speaker 4: directly to the Inner Standards if you are found guilty

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Speaker 4: or fleet guilty on each charge and a maximum sentences

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Speaker 4: are in post consecutive critic compartments, one right after the other,

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Speaker 4: you could be facing ten years in prison followed by

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Speaker 4: four consecutive life sentences or death penalties. Finds about to

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Speaker 4: two hundred thousand.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing Judge John Judge speaking with me an all

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Speaker 2: star panel to make sense of what we know right now.

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Speaker 2: First to Chris McDonough joining US, director of the Cold

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Speaker 2: Case Foundation, former homicide detective, and hosts of YouTube channel

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Speaker 2: The Interview Room. Chris, are you surprised that on some

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Speaker 2: questions he would say yes, yes, yes, a single word,

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Speaker 2: but when it came time to say not guilty, he

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Speaker 2: quote stood silent.

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Speaker 7: No, I'm not surprised, Nancy. But your point about that

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Speaker 7: voice match potential for that witness is, you know, I

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Speaker 7: got a shiver when I heard it because I had

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Speaker 7: not considered that personally, And I think you're right on

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Speaker 7: target there. He is in this control mechanism even there

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Speaker 7: in the courtroom, and he wants to again mitigate his

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Speaker 7: risk and relationship to that or he's mentoring, you know,

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Speaker 7: back to the individuals that he studied in his in

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Speaker 7: his course studies in relationship to his assigned books from

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Speaker 7: his professor, specifically Dennis Rader, who also stood silent.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a really good comparison. Could you explain that place?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean when when bt K went before the court,

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Speaker 7: he had his attorney said the exact same thing and

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Speaker 7: and elevated himself. You know, the thought process is by

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Speaker 7: having a judge declare his you know, not guilty.

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Speaker 2: Why do you say that elevated himself.

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Speaker 7: Well, you're sitting there and you have a judge telling

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Speaker 7: the world, Well, I'll just go ahead and tell the

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Speaker 7: world you're not guilty, that you're that you're you're standing silent.

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Speaker 7: And BTK relished it. And then later on, of course,

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Speaker 7: when he saw the extent of the evidence, then he

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Speaker 7: came forward with his you know now infamous confession to

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Speaker 7: the to the world.

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Speaker 2: Very very compelling because we know that uh Coburger has

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Speaker 2: taken a very unusual interest in Dennis Dennis writer bt

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Speaker 2: K by torture kill serial killer. In fact, there was

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Speaker 2: much speculation that the two had been in contact. Very

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Speaker 2: compelling argument, along with the theory that he does not

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Speaker 2: want his voice repeatedly out there for Dylan Mortensen or Frankly,

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Speaker 2: the other survivor to be able to identify him Bethany.

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Speaker 2: So you've got Dylan and Bethany there that night. We

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Speaker 2: don't really know what Bethany heard or didn't hear, because

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Speaker 2: her statement has not been made public. Very curious. What

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Speaker 2: about this tie into it? And I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: to Karen Stark joining US renowned psychologists joining us out

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Speaker 2: of Manhattan. You can find her at Karenstark dot com.

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Speaker 2: It's Karen with a C. Karen, what about this complete

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Speaker 2: disdain for the judicial system, for our jury system, for

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Speaker 2: our judges. You know, a judge in herself or himself

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Speaker 2: are not the law, But like our president is not

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Speaker 2: the US government, they represent. The president represents our country,

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Speaker 2: represents our government. The judge represents the law. And you know,

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Speaker 2: Coburger seemingly have you ever have you read the accounts

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Speaker 2: of how students that were in school with him, coworkers

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Speaker 2: say he always had to be right, He always had

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Speaker 2: to point out when other people were wrong about anything.

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Speaker 2: He loved being smarter than thou. I could see him

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Speaker 2: bearing great disdain for the judge and for our judicial system.

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Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, think about his personality. I mean, this guy,

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Speaker 8: he's so narcissistic. He actually studied the killers, wanted to

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Speaker 8: know more about it. He had no hesitation to tell

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Speaker 8: other people that they were wrong, people that that learned

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Speaker 8: underneath him, that other students, they just felt that he

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Speaker 8: was so arrogant and think of what it takes to if,

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Speaker 8: in fact he is guilty do what he did. And

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Speaker 8: I felt like even when he was stopped, when the

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Speaker 8: police stopped him and he was attempting to have a

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Speaker 8: good exchange with them, that he wasn't even at that

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Speaker 8: point able to show that, oh gee, I'm really really

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Speaker 8: sorry it's anything. It seemed more like his father was

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Speaker 8: than he was. So I don't feel like this is

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Speaker 8: a guy who feels like anybody knows more than he does.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace, You.

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Speaker 2: Know, I want to go back to and guys on

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Speaker 2: the panel. Remember we're not having high t at Winsor

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Speaker 2: Castle with Charles and Camilla. Jump in if you have

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Speaker 2: a thought, Chris McDonough, do you remember how his colleagues

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Speaker 2: and co students disliked him because he was always correcting them,

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Speaker 2: always had to have the last word, always had to

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Speaker 2: be right about everything. Do you remember that?

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Speaker 7: Yes? Absolutely so?

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Speaker 2: How does that have. How does that connect to his

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Speaker 2: choice to basically not even acknowledge the judge.

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Speaker 7: Well, you know, to the doc statement, you know, to

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Speaker 7: dovetail into the dark statement a moment ago as well

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Speaker 7: the fact that he is, you know, projecting this total

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Speaker 7: control over all everything. And and now you think about

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Speaker 7: how he's convincing those around him by just dominance of

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Speaker 7: you know, conversations, dominance of you know, even his colleague

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Speaker 7: in his understudies where the kid was saying, look, you

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Speaker 7: know you've got to stop, you know, you've got to

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Speaker 7: be serious for a minute. I got to take your picture.

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Speaker 7: And he was able to, you know, in a quick second,

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Speaker 7: just flip that switch and pose for those photographs. And so,

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Speaker 7: you know, as the doc can tell us, you know,

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Speaker 7: we live three lives, our private life, our secret life,

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Speaker 7: and our public persona. So everything that he is doing

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Speaker 7: right now is in the secret persona, but he's projecting

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Speaker 7: it into a public persona, Joe. You know, the doc

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Speaker 7: I'm sure can get into the psychology of how deep

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Speaker 7: that goes. But what Corburger is Corburger is doing right

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Speaker 7: now is he is now taking this stage to the

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Speaker 7: court room and he's projecting this dominance, and yesterday was

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Speaker 7: another perfect example of that. What better way to have

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Speaker 7: his message told than by a judge in the highest

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Speaker 7: court in Idaho in relationship to the superior court where

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Speaker 7: he's presenting himself in the judge shay, Okay, well, I'll

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Speaker 7: go ahead and put in the not guilty for you.

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Speaker 2: Because you don't deign to speak, I'll do it for you.

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Speaker 2: Why did Brian Coberger quote stand silent? Is it because

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Speaker 2: he doesn't want the witnesses, the survivors to identify his

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Speaker 2: voice by speaking out in court? Is it because he

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Speaker 2: has an odd connection to BTK buying torture killed Dennis Raider,

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Speaker 2: who did the same thing in court? Or is it

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Speaker 2: because he has such disdain for the judge, for our

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Speaker 2: justice system. We know he treated colleagues, co teaching assistants,

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Speaker 2: students in that manner very disdainfully. But here's a big

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Speaker 2: indicator the way he talked down to a lady cop

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Speaker 2: that very simply warned him about pulling into a crosswalk

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Speaker 2: when people were walking at the crosswalk. Listen to this, Okay,

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Speaker 2: So I found it.

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Speaker 9: So I don't know what in Pennsylvania to the where

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Speaker 9: you go to find law Lisbon in Washington. It's called

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Speaker 9: the Revice Code of Washington, So I'll try to turn

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Speaker 9: my brightness up. But it's basically it's just called an RCW.

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Speaker 9: So it's RCW forty six sixty one dot two zero two.

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Speaker 9: So it's no driver shall enter an intersection unless there's

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Speaker 9: significant space on the other side of the intersection to

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Speaker 9: accommodate the vehicle. He is operating without obstructing the passage

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Speaker 9: of other vehicles despite any control signals, signal indications proceeds.

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Speaker 9: So you had a green light, so you're thinking you

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Speaker 9: can go, but you're blocking the intersection straight out.

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Speaker 2: She's a special guest joining us. Tracy Brown, author of

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Speaker 2: How to Detect Li's Fraud and Identity Theft. Tracy Brown

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Speaker 2: at body Languagetrainer dot com. Tracy, I mean he made

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Speaker 2: the lady cop go and research the law about pulling

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Speaker 2: your car into a crosswalk with people walking across it.

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Speaker 2: He did not accept that she was going to give

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Speaker 2: him a warning for doing that. He had her pull

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Speaker 2: the law. Are you surprised at all? He made The

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Speaker 2: judge entered the not guilty plea for him and refused

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Speaker 2: to speak.

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Speaker 10: I am not surprised, and I think, really what he

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Speaker 10: was going for, and I think what everybody was hinting

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Speaker 10: at is it is. Actually it's called a prestige suggestion.

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Speaker 2: Whoa hold on, I got write that round right? That down?

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Speaker 2: Prestige suggestion. What's that?

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Speaker 10: Well, that's when you get you. People are more readily

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Speaker 10: accepting of a comment from someone of prestige. Right. So

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Speaker 10: it could be a dentist when you go into the

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Speaker 10: dentist and they say that you need some kind of treatment,

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Speaker 10: Well you must because they're a dentists, right, same thing here,

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Speaker 10: So prestige suggestion from a judge, Well you got to

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Speaker 10: believe a judge. What could possibly be wrong with the judge?

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Speaker 7: Right?

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Speaker 10: And so it's just that little bit of extra prestige

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Speaker 10: to something to make you consider what's really being said.

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Speaker 2: Differently, Prestige suggestion. So how does that factor in Tracy

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Speaker 2: to him quote standing silent when it was time to interplace, Well.

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Speaker 10: I think he's depending on that prestige to start to

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Speaker 10: change public opinion.

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Speaker 2: Well it didn't as far as I can tell, it didn't.

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Speaker 10: I don't think so, But he's got to try.

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Speaker 2: You might as well try something if you ran up

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Speaker 2: at lands is that Karen started jumping Karen.

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Speaker 8: Yes. Well, I also want to point out that he

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Speaker 8: was He had no problem stating very firmly that he

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Speaker 8: understood what was being.

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Speaker 10: Said to him.

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Speaker 2: Oh my stars, Karen Starr, you just read my mind.

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Speaker 7: Jack.

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Speaker 2: Could you play our cut four three five uberger.

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Speaker 3: Do you understand the charge in count why perfect yes?

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Speaker 3: Do you understand the maximum penalty yes? Do you understand

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Speaker 3: the charge in count two murder in the first three yes.

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Speaker 3: Do you understand the maximum health yes? Do you understand

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Speaker 3: charge count three murder in the first three yes. Do

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Speaker 3: you understand the maximum healt yes? Do you understand the

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Speaker 3: charge in count four murder in the first degree yes?

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Speaker 4: Do you understand the mathma health yes? Do you understand

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Speaker 4: the charge in count five immerging on the first scar?

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Speaker 4: Do you understand the massimum patty?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you're absolutely right, Karen Stark very forcefully. Yes. And

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Speaker 2: I also noticed, you know, Karen, no matter what judge

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Speaker 2: I was in front of, didn't matter what judge, even

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Speaker 2: if it was a when I got sworn in at

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Speaker 2: the US Supreme Court, all the way down to a

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Speaker 2: traffic judge, doesn't matter. I would always say yes, sir,

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Speaker 2: or yes, ma'am or yes judge to show respect for

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Speaker 2: this person. Whether I liked the judge or thought that

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Speaker 2: they were a lunatic, it didn't matter. They still represented

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Speaker 2: our judicial system. And you see Coburger putting, you know,

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Speaker 2: just like Tracy Brown was talking about prestige suggestion, putting

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Speaker 2: himself on the same level as the judge in a

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Speaker 2: court of law instead of showing any respect by saying

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Speaker 2: sir or ma'am, that's not going to happen with kay

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Speaker 2: Broker now.

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Speaker 11: And then Nancy have another idea too, is that I

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Speaker 11: think you know, as much as we speak about the

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Speaker 11: recording of his voice and people hearing it, there are

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Speaker 11: recordings of his voice, whether through the bodycam video with

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Speaker 11: police stopped him and interviews which maybe if they can

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Speaker 11: be entered in and suppressed as evidence, could be heard

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Speaker 11: by the witnesses. My view is that this is really

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Speaker 11: about him being smarter than everyone else, him studying him,

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Speaker 11: wanting to be smarter when out smart investigators. He wanted

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Speaker 11: to do things that would be not traceable to him.

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Speaker 11: He was trying to commit this kind of I believe

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Speaker 11: the allegation here is that he was trying to commit

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Speaker 11: kind of his perfect crime and as a result, he's

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Speaker 11: going to put the full burden of proof, full burden

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Speaker 11: everything on the prosecution to basically say, here I am,

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Speaker 11: you got to come after me, you got to give

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Speaker 11: me everything you have.

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Speaker 2: They smarter than everyone else. I think you're hearing Bill

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Speaker 2: Daily right now, former FBI investigator, forensic photography security expert. Bill.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right.

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Speaker 8: Karen Stark wag In, He's definitely he's correct.

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Speaker 12: Man.

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Speaker 8: See, this is an arrogant guy. There's no difference there.

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Speaker 8: This guy is going to show you that he knows

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Speaker 8: the law absolutely and he is smarter than everybody, and

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Speaker 8: he's going to get away with this. I don't think

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Speaker 8: this guy is afraid. I really don't. I think he

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Speaker 8: believes that he's going to be found.

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Speaker 2: Dennison, Now, I want to go to Tara Malick joining us,

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Speaker 2: a high profile lawyer out of that jurisdiction in Idaho,

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Speaker 2: and you can find her at Smith Malik dot com. Tara,

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Speaker 2: thanks for being with us. What about the theory that

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Speaker 2: this whole standing silent move in the courtroom by Brian

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Speaker 2: Coberger and clearly his lawyer was on board with it,

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Speaker 2: Ann Taylor, They don't have the insanity defense in Idaho,

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Speaker 2: but how about somehow lying the ground for an incompetency defense.

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Speaker 13: You know, I don't know that it's an incompetency defense,

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Speaker 13: because as we heard on that clip, he said, yes,

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Speaker 13: he understood the charges. So you know, I think that

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Speaker 13: and I agree with the other panelists and what.

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Speaker 10: They've been saying.

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Speaker 13: You know, he's this narcissist. He's trying to kind of

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Speaker 13: gain control but.

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Speaker 10: Himself above the judge.

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Speaker 13: I think the other thing that standing silent does as

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Speaker 13: far as a strategy, is if there are negotiations ongoing

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Speaker 13: right now behind the scenes, you know, to take the

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Speaker 13: death penalty off the table or who knows what with

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Speaker 13: the prosecution, it's a bargaining tchip that they can save

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Speaker 13: and they can say and kind of save face a

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Speaker 13: little bit and be like, he didn't enter and not

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Speaker 13: guilty plea. He wasn't doubling down and saying he was

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Speaker 13: not guilty. What he was doing was standing silent, you know,

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Speaker 13: defaulting to the not guilty and then using that later on.

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Speaker 13: You know, he has that right to stand silent. The

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Speaker 13: other thing that came to mind when I heard that

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Speaker 13: he stood silent was that they don't have all the

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Speaker 13: discovery yet. You know, there's a pending motion to compel

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Speaker 13: by the defense against the state. I think the state

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Speaker 13: has turned over over ten thousand documents and several thousand

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Speaker 13: photographs already, but they're requesting more information and think there's

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Speaker 13: more information out there, and if they don't have all

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Speaker 13: the discovery yet, you know, they may not be able

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Speaker 13: to assess right now what he's going to do. And

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Speaker 13: so standing silent would give them some leeway there as well,

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Speaker 13: to say, you know, I can't even advise my client

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Speaker 13: one way or another because I don't have all the

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Speaker 13: information yet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, Tara. Typically, even at the outset, when

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Speaker 2: all the discovery has not been handed over, the defendant

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Speaker 2: will enter a not guilty plea. The law is that

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Speaker 2: when a defendant refuses to speak, the court will presume

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Speaker 2: the defendant wishes to enter a not guilty plea and

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Speaker 2: enter it for the defendant. That is the Fifth Amendment

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Speaker 2: right to remain silent as it has been interpreted US

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Speaker 2: and state case law. So when a defendant won't interplea,

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Speaker 2: the law presumes a not guilty not guilty plea is intended.

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Speaker 2: That's really good reasoning Tar Malik. Another issue, guys, have

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Speaker 2: you ever heard of solve sets sovereign citizens? You know

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Speaker 2: the ones that, yeah, I hear you laughing, so you

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Speaker 2: are familiar. They are the ones that, for instance, refuse

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Speaker 2: to acknowledge the I R S is real, And so

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Speaker 2: they sit in the can in the Pokey jail prison

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Speaker 2: for a really long time until they go, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the I R S Is real, I will pay my taxes.

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Speaker 2: Long story short, solve SIT says that they are autonomous

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Speaker 2: and they are basically a citizen of the world and

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Speaker 2: do not recognize any sovereign over them, i e. The government,

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Speaker 2: the judge, they anybody, We've all heard of the people,

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Speaker 2: And it's usually have you noticed to Bill or Chris,

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Speaker 2: Karen Tara, anybody on the panel that it's usually about taxes.

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Speaker 2: That's when they suddenly refuse to acknowledge a sovereign is

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Speaker 2: when it comes to paying taxes. Everything else fine, I'll

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Speaker 2: stop at the red light, but I'm not gonna pay

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Speaker 2: my taxes. Have you guys noticed that.

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Speaker 10: They don't like to.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah they don't. Yeah, when they get a ticket,

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Speaker 2: they no longer agree with the traffic rules. Yes, that's

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Speaker 2: a good point. Maybe it's a solve set. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but I do know that that is what has happened

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Speaker 2: in court. Take a listen to our cup four three eight.

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Speaker 4: By the way, I do want to.

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Speaker 5: Let everybody know, if they don't already know this, that

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Speaker 5: once the grand jury issuing nagement, polluter and hearing schedule

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Speaker 5: to start out of June twenty six was no longer

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Speaker 5: needed and it's vacated. So you get confused about that.

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Speaker 5: So I think, thank counsel and I am a media

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Speaker 5: and the public for your attention and the staff.

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Speaker 7: So you are a journey.

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Speaker 2: There are many ways to charge someone formally with a

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Speaker 2: felony like murder. You can have a single prosecutor draw

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Speaker 2: up what it's called an information. They just write it

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Speaker 2: up themselves and say hey, you're formally charged. You're going

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Speaker 2: to trial. You can have a preliminary hearing like in

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Speaker 2: the AJ Simpson case, where witnesses are called, they can

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Speaker 2: be cross examined an a judge then quote binds the

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Speaker 2: case over to the correct court such as a superior

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Speaker 2: court for trial. Or you can have eight grand jury proceeding,

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Speaker 2: which is what was held this time. By having the

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Speaker 2: grand jury hand down the charges that got rid of

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Speaker 2: the need for a preliminary hearing, So the preliminary hearing

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Speaker 2: except for June, is now off. I want to mention

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Speaker 2: again the behavior of Brian Coburger in the courtroom, and

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Speaker 2: I watched defendants like a hawk to see if I

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Speaker 2: can learn anything from their behavior their demeanor. Nicole Parton,

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Speaker 2: joining us Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Nicole, I

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Speaker 2: played and replayed Coburger going in and out of the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: He very carefully trained his gaze on anything but the victims' families.

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Speaker 2: What did you see, Nicole.

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Speaker 12: Parton, Absolutely, I noticed the very same thing Nancy and

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Speaker 12: I also have heard witnesses that were in the courtroom

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Speaker 12: saying that members of Cayley's family kept their eyes locked

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Speaker 12: on him, but he refused to even look their way.

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Speaker 12: He only he looked at his attorney. I also noticed

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Speaker 12: that yesterday, compared to the previous videos and photos we've

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Speaker 12: seen of him, he is not as frail in thin

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Speaker 12: now Physically he looked stronger. He also doesn't have those

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Speaker 12: scratches and marks on the side of his face that

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Speaker 12: we saw in previous court events, so he looked physically different.

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Speaker 12: But he had that focus, not looking at any family members,

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Speaker 12: not looking at anyone in the courtroom, and just sitting there,

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Speaker 12: gazed into his attorney that one little, little small smile

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Speaker 12: that he gave her.

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Speaker 11: And that was in.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: To Tracy Brown, body language expert and author of How

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Speaker 2: to Detect Li's Fraud and Identity Theft. What do you

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Speaker 2: at Coyburger's behavior in court?

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Speaker 10: Well, I thought there was really a lot to see.

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Speaker 10: And let's let's start with how he walked in And

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Speaker 10: you all mentioned his his gaze. What which which is true?

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Speaker 10: Which let me there was a couple of clues that

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Speaker 10: said he was emotionally unaffected by the proceedings. For one,

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Speaker 10: did not show emotion on his face. Okay, but here's

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Speaker 10: here's what's more interesting is that he did not protect

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Speaker 10: himself like we would normally see someone walk into the courtroom.

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Speaker 10: So his his arms were out into the side. He

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Speaker 10: was making himself a little bit bigger. Now, some of

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Speaker 10: that had to do with him wearing which I think

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Speaker 10: was a bulletproof vest, but his arms were hanging down

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Speaker 10: to his sides. Usually we'd see someone protect themselves in

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Speaker 10: some kind of way. With arms in front of them

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Speaker 10: at least a little bit. So excuse me, so that

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Speaker 10: this lets me know, Okay, wait a minute, this guy

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Speaker 10: doesn't think he has anything to protect himself from. Now

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Speaker 10: beyond that, he does not when he's sitting there, he

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Speaker 10: does not show any adapters or pacifiers. And what those

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Speaker 10: boil down to are small little movements that really stress,

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Speaker 10: Small little repetitive movements. Right, So he didn't put his

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Speaker 10: hand to his forehead, he didn't lean on his elbows,

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Speaker 10: he didn't smooth down his pants, right, those kinds of things.

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Speaker 10: He didn't run his hands through his hair, none of that.

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Speaker 10: I have never seen anyone without these kinds of movements

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Speaker 10: in what's such what you'd think would be such a

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Speaker 10: pressure field situation, which let me know he does not

436
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 10: emotionally connect to the pressure that's around him, like just

437
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 10: not protecting himself, not letting off any anxiety at all. Now,

438
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 10: we hinted at some of this earlier. I think from

439
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 10: the way that he actually didn't move his head because

440
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 10: he was very straight on the whole time, it tells

441
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 10: me he's a really analytical linear secer in my experience,

442
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 10: that's what we see, and he doesn't do emotions well,

443
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 10: So I thought that was not necessarily uncharacteristic of someone

444
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 10: who's likely been involved in this kind of situation. Now

445
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 10: here's what's most interesting is that we didn't see any

446
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 10: wrinkles in his forehead. And our forehead is the part

447
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 10: of us that's the hardest to control. It's almost impossible

448
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 10: to do, so that's what we'd see is stress mark,

449
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 10: stress lines across the forehead if he was stressed. He

450
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 10: didn't show a drop of stress at all about anything.

451
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 10: The only time I've seen anything like that was similar

452
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 10: was with Lee Harvey Oswald who killed Kennedy. He didn't

453
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 10: show any stress when he was on camera either. So

454
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 10: his is a blink rate was super slow. Okay, So

455
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 10: that says, okay, wait a minute, there may be something

456
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 10: going on there or as far as stress goes inside

457
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 10: that he's trying to hold back, or he he could

458
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 10: be staring out at what's going on, trying to emotionally

459
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 10: disconnect from a situation. But I don't think there's a

460
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 10: lot of connection there to start with. Like he sounds

461
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 10: fully aware, I think he just wasn't able, like mentally

462
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 10: to connect to the gravity of what's going on.

463
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: You know what I compare it to, and I want

464
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: everybody to jump in, Karen, Chris, Bill, Nicole, and doctor

465
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: Kendall Crown's coming right back to you. He would not

466
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,959
Speaker 2: look at the victims' families sitting in the courtroom, some

467
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: of them anyway. And I remember in my own experience

468
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: coming down off the witness stand and my fiance's Marty

469
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,239
Speaker 2: tru and I looked at the defense attorneys and they

470
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: all look down. I looked at the defendant and he

471
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: looked down. I find that significant. What about it, Chris mcdonney,

472
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: You've seen plenty of homicide defendants.

473
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 7: Nancy Sill. My take on him in relationship to that

474
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 7: is again, remember he wore the perpetrator here warm math,

475
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 7: and it was just enough to where the eyewitness could

476
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 7: only see partial, you know, pieces of that individual's identity

477
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 7: in this case where he walks into that courtroom, does

478
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 7: not make eye contact with anybody in relationship to you know,

479
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 7: who the victims are here. That again, I read that,

480
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 7: as you know, Leather or mine, I control the whole

481
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 7: scenario here. I control that before it happened, I controlled

482
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 7: it when it happened, and now I'm going to control

483
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 7: it after it happened, and so by him not acknowledging it,

484
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 7: it's almost Remember, these guys and the doc can break

485
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 7: into this, are much deeper. These guys do these things

486
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 7: at night because deep down inside, it's this idea that says,

487
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 7: I am nothing, Joe. Remember if you pull that mask off,

488
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 7: everybody goes that's the guy. And you know what, that

489
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 7: guy's really weird and he's been weird blah blah blah.

490
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 7: And you go back and look in their history and

491
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 7: sure enough they were, and we start seeing evidence of

492
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 7: that just on with this guy. You know, the tinderbates,

493
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 7: and we can keep going on. But what he's doing

494
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 7: there is telling that family, no, they belong to me.

495
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 7: I'm in control and I'm not going to let you in.

496
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just thinking through everything that happened, Bill

497
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: Daily joining me form or FBI investigator forensic photography and

498
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: security expert. Did you notice he trained his eyes on

499
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: his lawyer and the defense table and would not look

500
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 2: at the victim's families at all.

501
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 11: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. And what they were all getting around

502
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 11: here too, is that he's emotionally vacant. And even during

503
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 11: the car stops when we saw the body cam footage,

504
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 11: and all the way through he just has this kind

505
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 11: of vacant look on his face. But I think it

506
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 11: actually goes a bit more deeper than that. I think

507
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 11: as he's standing there and not willing to say to

508
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 11: put it forward to plee if not guilty, he's already

509
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 11: thinking down the road as to how he's going to

510
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 11: try to unravel the prosecution's purpose of going forward to

511
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 11: forensic evidence. I think he's looking already, and I imagine

512
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 11: what we're going to see him be very active with

513
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 11: his attorney and trying to pull apart it's by piece

514
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 11: the forensic evidence, whether it's change of custody like we

515
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 11: saw on the OJ Simpson trial, or whether it's through

516
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 11: questionable laboratory techniques they didn't try to suppress as much

517
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 11: as he can, And I think that's where he already is.

518
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 11: I think he's already down the road trying to outsmart

519
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 11: the court, outsmart the prosecution.

520
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: To doctor Kendall Crown's chief medical examiner, Terran County. That's

521
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: fort Worth Lecturer, University Texas Austin TCU Medical School, doctor

522
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: Kendall Crowns. The one thing he did not want to

523
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: hear about at all, is what happened to these victims?

524
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 2: Before we close today, I don't want our discussion to

525
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: be just about strategy technique. Could you please explain what

526
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: happened to these for victims.

527
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 14: So, all the individuals were stabbed multiple times with a

528
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 14: k bar type knife, and that's the type knife that's

529
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 14: the Marine Corps is issued, so it's a relatively large

530
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 14: kind of hunting knife, but used for hand to hand combat.

531
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 14: They were all stabbed multiple times about their bodies a

532
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 14: large evidently larger gaping wounds, so there's probably a fair

533
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 14: amount of movement in the stab wounds as well. So

534
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 14: I would think that they each individually were probably over

535
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 14: stabbed more than once because usually in these situations it's

536
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 14: hard to just stab a person one time and have

537
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 14: them drop dead like it happens with a gunshot wound.

538
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 14: So usually the individuals are stabbed multiple times and there's

539
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 14: defensive wounds as they're trying to stop you from stabbing them,

540
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 14: and all they have to defend themselves is their arms

541
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 14: in hands, so often there's mutilating injuries of the hands

542
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 14: where even fingers are hacked off because you're grabbing at

543
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 14: the knife trying to stop it. So I would assume

544
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 14: that these individuals have those wounds as well, so they're

545
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 14: probably is a group. All of them have multiple stab

546
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 14: wounds with the combination of defensive type injuries and then

547
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 14: mutilating injuries as well.

548
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: What did you mean when you said movement within the

549
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 2: stab wounds.

550
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 14: So there's a couple things. As you know, you're not

551
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 14: going to just stand there and be stabbed, right, You're

552
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 14: going to try and get away from them, pull away

553
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 14: when the knife enteres your body is painful, so you'll

554
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 14: twist and turn, and then that can cause a change

555
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 14: in the shape of the wound itself. And also sometimes

556
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 14: with individuals when they stab you, they will actually put

557
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 14: the knife in and then pull it as hard as

558
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 14: they can in one direction or another to make the

559
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 14: injury even more devastating and make the wound bigger.

560
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking back to the night these four students

561
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 2: were murdered, stabbed over and over and over the way

562
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: our medical examiner, doctor Kendall Crowns, is describing, and then

563
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: this guy comes in to court and refuses to enter

564
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: a play.

565
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: We wait as justice and false goodbye