WEBVTT - Taser Incorporated | Episode 5 - NFW 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:05.519 Previously on Taser Incorporated. 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.719 I remember looking at the screen and I said, that's capture. 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.360 There was no change in what I was trained in 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:16.840 four to twenty fourteen. 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:21.320 None of these cases has the person died while being 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:22.080 hit with the taser. 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:23.840 You're saying that this was a coincidence. 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:25.720 They would have died anyway. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:44.800 In every single case, these people would have died anyway. 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:47.600 I walked into Matt and Stacy Master's house on a 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.640 sticky July night, about a month after Timothy Runolds was 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.960 sentenced to four years in prison. Matt was sitting at 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.520 their kitchen table. That big accordion folder he'd stuffed full 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.760 of taser articles and court papers for years was spilled 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.560 out in front of him. Pages and pages marked with 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.840 handwritten notes in red ink and highlighted passages yellow and 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:07.559 orange marker. 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:13.039 That's what blows my mind and then just infuriates me. 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.319 I mean, I started skimming the titles covering the kitchen 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.760 table and began to laugh. I realized we were too 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.280 obsessive sitting down to compare notes I was. 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.440 Told, And as I moved along through my own research, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.120 and it was so eye opening that I'm like, why 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:34.960 the fucks don't departments know this, Like where is the disconnect? 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:36.559 Where is Like. 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.400 I was one of the few people in the world 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:43.039 who actually understood what Matt was looking at. Like seeing 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.720 one paper effects of cocaine intoxication on the threshold for 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:51.360 stun gun induction of ventricular fibrillation, I'd go, oh, yeah, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.480 that's the study from the Cleveland clinic that first discovered 0:01:54.560 --> 0:02:00.240 cardiac capture. Or another Butler versus Taser International. It's one 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.360 of the first lawsuits that exposed the Taser's cardiac risks. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:08.840 Like cops believed everything, everything that Tayser told. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:12.560 Me, and like now I think I listened to Matt 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:17.320 Rant for hours. Timothy Runnalds was in prison, but now 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.600 it was time for the fight. Matt really wanted. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:21.760 I want to be in that. 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.799 He told me Bryce was going to file a lawsuit 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:32.320 against Taser International. Matt wanted the company to pay for 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:38.800 what happened to his son. This is absolute. Season one, 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:44.280 Taser incorporated a story about unchecked power. I'm Nick Beredini. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:38.960 Episode five n FW. There was one lawyer whose name 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.600 kept coming up in the trial transcripts Matt put in 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.640 his folder, John Burton. He was like the Michael Jordan 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:49.400 of suing Taser International, and he'd studied Tasers every move. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:55.839 They had convinced their customer base, which are law enforcement agencies, 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.720 that this device was absolutely safe and that any who 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.760 says differently is just trying to take this great tool 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:10.520 away from you and is probably some acou liberal pinko 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.120 who wants to take your car away or something or 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:16.520 bagas so you can eat Hamburgers. 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.599 If anyone fit the stereotype of liberal pinko, it was John. 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.320 John grew up in Pasadena. He became a hard charging 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.480 civil rights attorney who hung portraits of famous jazz musicians 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.839 on the walls of his office. He even ran for 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.719 governor of California in two thousand and three, supported by 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:34.479 the socialist Equality Party. 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.479 I got like seven thousand votes. I remember Gary Coleman 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.120 finished ahead of me and Arianne Huffington. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.919 John took his first taser case back in two thousand 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.960 and five, nine years before Officer Runnels Taste Brice Masters. 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.640 This is when news stories about grandma's and kids getting 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.520 tasered and people dying from the weapon were becoming more 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:01.560 and more common. Taser International was in an escalating battle 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.760 with critics who thought the taser could kill. The company 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.240 was spending lots of money on legal fees defending themselves 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.279 and what they called the war against Taser, and CEO 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.720 Rick Smith was in the news defending tasers all the time, 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.440 like when he answered questions on CBS News of. 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.800 The cases that we've seen, we strongly believe and our 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.560 medical experts strongly believed the taser had no causal effect 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:27.560 in those fatalities. 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.760 In one of his first taser cases, John represented the 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.480 family of a forty year old man named Robert Heston, 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.840 who died after police tasered him twenty five times for 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.279 more than a minute straight. John brought on his friend 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.760 Peter Williamson. They were a team, two men with the 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.040 same job and the same goal do what no legal 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:53.840 team had done before and defeat Taser in court. They 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:55.839 even sound similar. Well. 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.440 First of all, they had had tremendous success in litigation 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.880 before John and I got involved. I think was seventy 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.080 six cases where they had been able to kick the 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:07.919 cases out of court on summary judgment. 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.159 It was actually seventy and zero. But Peter is right. 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.680 So far, no lawyer had ever been able to convince 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.640 a jury or a judge that Taser International was responsible 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:20.520 for someone's death. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.800 So they had a certain arrogance and swagger about them that, hey, 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:29.320 we can't be defeated, right, And who were these guys 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:34.000 coming into court and you know, fighting us? And as 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.600 I've often said, when I think back on this litigation, 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.600 I wouldn't put it on the same level, but it 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:46.720 was akin to tobacco litigation. It was a company that 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:52.599 absolutely refused to concede any point whatsoever, fought everything tooth 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.239 and nail, appealed everything. They would not give an inch 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.760 on any of this. And you know, they got lawyers 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.560 who had the same kind of mentality that you know, 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:05.440 we're too big, you can't beat us. 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:10.040 Taser's lawyers and executives had a swagger in part because 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.680 they saw themselves as the good guys, providing a technology 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.720 that made a violent world safer every day. CEO Rick 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.320 Smith explained his personal frustration to a reporter from GQ 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:26.040 magazine in twenty ten. They quote him saying, we're saving lives, 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.840 don't you get it? And then he compares himself to 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:33.280 Batman quote this sort of tragic thing where he's trying 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.520 to stop the criminals, but the media and the general 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:40.560 public think he's a vigilante, a bad guy. But John 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.920 and Peter didn't see Rick Smith as batman. It seemed 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.200 to them that the taser played some role in killing 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:50.400 their client's son, Robert Heston, So they filled their offices 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.840 with boxes and boxes of documents everything they could learn 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:55.280 about the company and the weapon. 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.480 I mean, the amount of time we spent researching and studying. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.000 I can't even calculate the amount of hours we spent. 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:08.160 They were looking for two pieces of information, proof that 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.400 the taser could kill, and proof that Taser International knew 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:17.120 about it and didn't warn cops. John and Peter combed 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.520 through what felt like endless pages of medical studies spread 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.200 out around the office, and after a while, they came 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.720 upon a couple of independent studies that suggested the taser 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:35.360 might cause this thing called acidosis. Simply put, acidosis is 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.319 a dangerous condition where lactic acid builds up in your 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.160 blood from muscle contractions. One taser shot won't do much, 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.280 but a taser shot that lasts sixty seconds that's roughly 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.640 a thousand muscle contractions in one minute. In John and 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.720 Peter's case, Robert Heston had been tasered for over a minute. 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.640 Now they had their strategy. Before they went to trial, 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.000 they had depositions, and this is where they met Rick 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:07.559 Smith for the first time. John especially remembers reading Rick's resume. 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.080 It was pages long going back to high school. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.880 And then it had its SAT scores going into college. 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.320 It's college admission scores. There is a guy who was, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.600 you know, the CEO of a publicly traded company, and 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:28.480 he's putting his SAT scores on his resume. I wasn't. 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.400 I wasn't that in press because they were lower than mine. 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:35.640 But you know, as you can imagine, things between the 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:37.439 two sides got ugly in a hurry. 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.120 I mean, we would get into screaming matches in some 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.199 of these depositions. It was unbelievable. 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.000 I've seen over one hundred hours of footage of depositions 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.800 from this case and others, and no doubt they were contentious, 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.160 but there isn't much screaming. I'd say it was more 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:55.800 like pissing contests. 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.920 We take one last bathroom break. It can be very fascinating. 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.000 Actually I'd prefer not. If you can hold on for 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:03.280 twenty minutes, then I. 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.280 Can twenty minutes. I cannot assure that I can't answer 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.560 well cognitively and accurately. We've been going for well over 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:10.960 an hour. 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.120 Oh no, when I've been going for a lot less 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:13.600 than an hour. 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:18.040 This time Peter got the sense that to Rick, these 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:19.720 cases were a waste of his time. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:24.079 He never ever showed any empathy for anybody in any 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:28.160 of these cases. He could have cared less. Yes, it 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.640 was beneath him, for certain. Never, once ever did I 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.520 hear him say anything or do anything that would suggest 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.400 to me that he had any empathy for anybody. He 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.760 only cared about the bottom line of his company, and 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:42.400 that was it. 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.559 The depositions only made John and Peter want to win more. 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.320 In previous cases against Taser International, other lawyers had tried 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.440 to argue that exposure to the tasers electric current was 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.920 directly causing cardiac arrest, like sticking a fork in a wall, 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.600 but Taser had lots of research to show the electric 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.040 current was too weak to really do that. No lawyer 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.480 had ever won an argument against Taser International by focusing 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.880 on acidosis until John and Peter made their case to 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.439 the jury. They said the company failed to warn cops 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.320 that so many shots in a row could cause acidosis. 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.320 It was an emotional, intense back and forth in the courtroom. 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.600 Taser's lawyers claimed Heston's death was a classic case of 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.120 excited delirium because he was high on methamphetamine when he died. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.160 They said the Taser had nothing to do with killing him. 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.480 But after listening to both sides make their arguments, the 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.800 jury found the Taser partially responsible for Heston's death. On 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.880 June sixth, two thousand and eight, John and Peter became 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.280 the first lawyers to beat Taser International in a wrongful 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:55.280 death case. It made headlines across the country, turned John 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.720 and Peter into the Taser lawyers, the guys who finally 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.560 got a court to say on the record that the 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:11.320 Taser could kill. Their win against Taser brought John and 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.880 Peter more cases families who claimed the Taser killed or 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.200 injured their loved one, and though they'd gotten that first 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.200 big legal win, it was looking like the Heston case 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.120 might be a one off because acidosis didn't actually explain 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.160 all these other cases. Many of these were cases where 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.280 sober or healthy people were shot in the chest, sometimes 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.240 just once or twice, not long enough to cause acidosis. 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:37.920 So John and Peter went back to the pile of 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.480 research papers, and John noticed something he'd missed before. 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.640 I mean, this would be typical of Taser propaganda that 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:47.600 maybe fooled me at first. 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.800 It was about how the taser delivers an electric shock. 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.600 Even though it seems like the shock delivered by a 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:58.080 taser is constant, the electricity actually comes in extremely short, 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.560 fast waves. At the peak of one of those waves, 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:08.760 the electric current was high. Once John understood this, he 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.000 noticed that Taser's lawyers and master instructors referred to the 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.280 average current when they explained how safe the weapon was. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.679 Using average current would be like trying to argue your 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.400 way out of a speeding ticket using your average speed. 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.959 Like after you got caught driving eighty five and a 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.840 fifty five, you told the cop that's bullshit, Officer, I 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.280 was just stopped at two red lights. You should measure 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:38.520 my average speed. John realized the peak current was much higher, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.960 much more dangerous than the average. This is how the 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.800 company made the taser look weaker than a Christmas tree bulb. 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.319 Before this, he and Peter had been focused on acidosis. 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.880 But now that they understood how strong the taser current was, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:57.840 they went back to their research with a new question, 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.120 is the taser's current strong enough to affect the heart? 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.160 And that's when they hit the jackpot. The information they 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.600 were searching for was you guessed it in a pig study. 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:09.800 I told you I. 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.760 Wasn't going to use profanity in this interview, but I 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:12.760 just went holy shit. 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.839 Taser International funded a study published in two thousand and 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.640 six by a prominent doctor at the Cleveland Clinic named 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.560 Patrick Chu. Doctor Chew and his team gave five pigs 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.680 cocaine and shocked them to see what would happen. The 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.360 pig hearts were visible on an ultrasound machine, so they 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.440 could see everything during the taser shots. The cocaine didn't 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.160 make the pigs any more likely to have a cardiac arrest, 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.640 but buried in the studies conclusion was something that changed 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.320 everything for John and Peter. 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:51.120 These studies of these pigs show that there's cardiac capture. 0:14:51.720 --> 0:15:06.600 So I was really shocked that the science actually supported that. 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.160 The taser's electric current was strong enough to override a 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.560 normal heartbeat and speed it up, sometimes causing death. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.600 That's a much different kind of thing than the acidosis 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.920 because that could just happen instantly. 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.240 This study was exactly what John and Peter needed. Proof 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.960 the company had known about the risk of cardiac capture 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.200 for at least two years. It was buried right there 0:15:29.760 --> 0:16:00.280 in Taser's own research, and they still weren't warning cops. 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.120 Around this time, John had a new client, the family 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.800 of seventeen year old Darryl Turner. Daryl was tasered in 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.280 the chest for thirty seven seconds straight. He collapsed to 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.840 the floor of the grocery store where he worked and died. 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.480 The entire incident was caught on video. It seemed like 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.120 a clear case of taser induced cardiac capture. The taser 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:28.200 sped Darryl's heart up and killed him. Soon they were 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.239 back at it, meeting with Rick Smith again in depositions. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.280 So what you're saying, I mean, I'm trying to understand 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.040 what you're saying. What you're saying is that the use 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.760 of the taser had nothing to do with the cardiac 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.720 arrest in this case. Is that your testimony. 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:49.000 Taser International's argument was that Darryl Turner had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.520 a condition where the heart muscles thicken and can cause death, 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.400 and that he happened to die because of this condition. 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:01.120 At the exact moment he got tased. Grilled Rick about it. 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.320 What I'm saying is that, to the best of our knowledge, 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.600 this does not appear that the direct electric effects of 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.480 the taser would be the most likely cause of the 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.679 cardiac arrest, and that this case is were similar to 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.520 the cases of sudden cardiac death in high school athletes. 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.960 It's not a fully understood phenomenon why young, otherwise healthy 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:30.080 looking people collapse and die during physically stressful events. 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.840 While John was litigating on behalf of Darryl Turner, he 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.159 and Peter kept taking on more cases, and many of 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:46.879 these cases were headed to trial. Darryl Turner's case wouldn't 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.600 go to trial for another couple of years, but it 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.480 was clear John and Peter found a blueprint that threatened 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.400 the company. The taser could affect the heart, the company 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:03.040 had the science that proved it. When the Turner case 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.359 finally went before a jury in twenty eleven, John and 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:12.359 Peter won easily, and it cost the company millions. In 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.159 two thousand and nine, Taser International was staring down the 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.200 barrel of over forty separate lawsuits. If even a handful 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.960 of those cases were as clear cut as Darryl Turner's death, 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:27.040 Tayser would likely lose a fortune. Even the Canadian government 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.200 was investigating them. After someone died in the Vancouver airport 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.760 after being tased, Peter Williamson decided it was a good 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.440 time to offer Taser a chance at legal surrender. 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.040 We actually approached Mike Brave. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.160 Mike Brave, one of Taser's lawyers. 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.560 And we said to Mike Brave, I'll tell you what. 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.199 We're going to make you an offer. You resolved the 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.680 few cases at that point that we had, and we'll 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.000 sit down with you and we'll rewrite your warnings for you. 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.200 And if we do that, you're going to insulate yourself 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.159 from all future cases. And you know, you'll settle the 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.040 cases that we have with us, and we'll be done 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.400 and we'll move on in our lives to other things. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.159 And he said, wow, that's really interesting. I don't know 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.400 how long it was after that, probably maybe a month 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.440 or so after and we got an email from Mike 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:23.280 Brave and the email just said it just contained three 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:31.000 initials n f W. That was their response. So at 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:35.480 that point we said, okay, games on, you know, no 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:46.679 fucking way. And that decision ended up paying major dividends 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:48.919 for us. I'll just leave it at that. 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.959 What Peter means is that Taser kept fighting them. If 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.120 the company kept refusing to warn cops, they were going 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:58.159 to keep paying for it. 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.919 And somebody got the clue, Hey, we've got to do 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.240 something here or we're gonna keep getting sued. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.000 Taser International would eventually make changes to the design of 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:15.840 its weapon too, and their words improve safety margins. They 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.040 would issue a new version of the taser that shut 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.639 off automatically after five seconds, so an officer would have 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.520 to repress the trigger again to keep the electric current 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.679 flowing longer than five seconds, and they would reduce the 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:33.520 electric charge by about half. But before redesigning the weapon, 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:37.560 on September thirty, two thousand and nine, they issued their 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.679 own version of a warning, a new eighteen page training update. 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:44.879 And this is that same warning. Matt Masters was so 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:49.720 surprised to find Taser International was telling cops the risk 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.160 to the heart from the taser is not zero. They 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:57.119 also said that cops, when possible, should avoid shooting people 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:57.760 in the chest. 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.400 Baker of the Taser is now telling police officers where 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.160 to shoot. This new requirement is to stay away from 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:06.160 the head the neck and the chest. 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.880 When an officers. 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.760 Copsy read this bulletin, who had been under the impression 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:15.680 that the taser was completely safe, were confused. The company 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.479 immediately started getting calls and emails from cops asking for 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:27.200 more information. This was a huge change for officers. CEO 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.720 Rick Smith scheduled a two thousand and nine version of 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.960 a zoom a conference call with hundreds of police departments 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:33.840 around the country. 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.159 Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Taser 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.720 International Incorporated customer Updates. I would now like to turn 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.160 the call over to mister Rick Smith, CEO of Taser International. 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:48.960 Lease proceed, Thank you very much. 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.600 I want to start by addressing a couple of questions 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:56.639 we've been receiving over email. The first one is our 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.560 chest hits with the taser dangerous? And the answer to 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:02.600 that is definitively no. 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:09.720 Definitively no. Rick explained this addition to the training wasn't 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.120 because the taser was dangerous. Chest shots were just less 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.119 effective than shots to the back or stomach. 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:16.920 But the real. 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.280 Of the biggest reason here in my mind is risk 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.280 management and avoiding the controversy. 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:27.760 He was basically saying, new training recommendations were just to 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.720 keep the greedy lawyers and anti cop critics off all 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.919 their backs. If you still needed to shoot someone in 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.480 the chest with a Taser, the company would be by 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.960 your side. Taser International wasn't backing down or abandoning officers 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:41.680 in a way. 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.919 Will Taser helped defend officers where there's chest shots involved? 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:51.480 And the answer is unequivocally yes. We pride ourselves that 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:54.800 we stand up both for our technology and for officers. 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.879 Here you'll recall a few years ago in Ohio Medical. 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:03.280 I've listened to this call so many times. Cops were 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.800 looking for the truth, but there wasn't any real dialogue 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:11.680 about research results or science. I've often wondered how things 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:14.480 might be different if there had just been an honest conversation. 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:20.720 So there is an acknowledgement that there's a minute possibility 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.480 that shat to the chats could result in cardiac a risk. 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:27.760 I think the better way that I would answer that 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:31.600 not better, But from the company's perspective is we cannot 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:35.000 prove it's zero, and that means. 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.239 Why didn't Rich just tell them it's rare, but it's 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:41.399 a real risk. That's not what happened. 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:44.640 Thanks to all of you a taste for what you've 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:45.600 done for law enforcement. 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:48.639 Thank you, hey, and I would say sorry for you 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:52.359 know this situation. I don't enjoy it either. Unfortunately live 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.439 in a country where you spill hot coffee in your 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:56.400 laugh and you can see it for ten million dollars, 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:58.520 So appreciate your understanding and support. 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.480 On the conference call, Rick tells cops that his company 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:08.400 will always stand by any officer who needs their legal 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:11.000 support if they still have to shoot someone in the chest. 0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:40.880 But the reality was very different. When Taser International talk 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:43.960 to cops in that conference call, they downplayed the real 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.040 risks of the weapon. Instead, they said they were just 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:51.399 writing this warning to help everyone avoid controversy. This is 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:54.359 a pattern I've noticed in how the company deals with cops. 0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:58.199 In the beginning, they were calling Taser's non lethal and 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:02.280 warning about the obvious like people falling and the taser 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:05.119 is flammable, so if you shoot someone covered in gasoline, 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.479 watch out. Over the years, they started calling tasers less lethal. 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:13.640 They recommended officers not shoot people for longer than fifteen seconds, 0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:16.680 recommended they not shoot them in the chest, not shoot 0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:20.639 pregnant women or people running away. They were warning about acidosis, 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:25.800 cardiac risks, metabolic changes, just about everything, but in training, 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.480 were cops actually getting the message that the taser posed 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:36.040 any risk. About five years after this conference call, Matt 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:40.240 Masters thought tasers were one hundred percent safe. That is 0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:46.439 until his own son went into cardiac arrest. Matt wanted 0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:50.480 John Burton to bring Bryce's case against Taser International. 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:55.760 I called John's office out in California and got through 0:25:55.840 --> 0:25:59.400 to him and just kind of explained to him who 0:25:59.440 --> 0:25:59.879 I was. 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:04.240 He raced through the details. He was convinced that Officer 0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:07.199 Runnels didn't understand how dangerous the taser was when he 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:11.399 shot Bryce, and that Taser International was legally responsible for 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:15.399 what had happened. John looked through everything Matt sent him, 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:18.760 and he knew it wouldn't be an easy case. All 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:22.280 those warnings Taser International had quietly added to their products, 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:26.080 they gave the company an out. They could argue, it's 0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:28.800 written right here. You're not supposed to taser someone for 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:31.320 more than fifteen seconds at a time. You're supposed to 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.200 avoid the chest. It wasn't their fault when a cop 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:39.399