1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and unbost Creative. I'm Bridget Tott 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Something we talk about a lot on this podcast are 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: the ways that people who traffic and things like lies, 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, and disinformation are oftentimes doing it because it 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: makes them money. It's a scam, it's a grift, and 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: I think it's important that we frame it this way 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: because I don't think we will ever truly beat disinformation 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: until we make spreading it unprofitable. And right now, spreading 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: lies for profit is a booming business. Just ask Alex Jones. 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: So on Thursday, a jury determined that conspiracy theorist Info 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: Wars radio show host Alex Jones will have to pay 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: Scarlett Lewis and Neil Heslin, the parents of a six 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: year old child who was shot and killed in the 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: Sandy Hook school shooting, four point one million dollars in damages. Now, 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: this is a lot less than what the parents had 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: initially asked for, which was at least a hundred and 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars, but there's still a chance that I'll 20 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: have to pay more impunitive damages. This trial was the 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: first of three trials brought by the families are the 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: victims of the shooting. The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: happened back in twelve in Newtown, Connecticut. Twenty elementary school 24 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: kids and six school staff were shot and killed. It 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: was a horrific tragedy, and Alex Jones spent the aftermath 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: of that tragedy baselessly and repeatedly claiming that it never 27 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: happened and that it was staged in order to increase 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: gun control, and that the children who lost their lives 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: and the parents who grieved them were actually actors. Well, 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: bangin and bringing in all the actors to right down 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: and cry, and I think people and many of the 32 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: real parents or whatever. But when you got somebody laughing, 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: you want to watch this and walk over. Now, this 34 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: is a pretty well worn conspiracy theory, and whenever a 35 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,839 Speaker 1: mass tragedy like a shooting happens, conspiracy theorists will claim 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: that it didn't really happen and that it was actually 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: a false flag operation like you'll see memes falsely claiming 38 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: that the people who died were actually actors who were 39 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: later seen performing in the Super Bowl or that an 40 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: actor has been used in multiple mass shootings. At this point, 41 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: it's really predictable. I saw the same bogus claims floating 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: around the web after the awful, awful shooting in Texas 43 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: earlier this year. Now it's not clear if the Sandy 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: Hook conspiracy theories started with Alex Jones, but the family 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: say that Alex Jones, with his millions of listeners, lit 46 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: a match and ignited it and turned their lives into 47 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: a nightmare. Neil Hustlind testified that Alex Jones turned his 48 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: life into a quote living hell, and that because of Jones, 49 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: he had been harassed and threatened, saying what was said 50 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: about me and Sandy Hook itself resonates around the world. 51 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: As time went on, I truly realized how dangerous it was. 52 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: My life has been threatened. I fear for my life. 53 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: I fear for my safety. I can't even describe the 54 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: last night and a half years of the living hell 55 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: that I even understil had an indoor because of the 56 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: negligence of recklessness of how it Jones. Now, Alex Jones 57 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: was called in multiple lies during the cor proceedings. Honestly, 58 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: it would take way too much time to list through 59 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: all of them here, but here's a little sampling. At 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: one point, the plaintiff's lawyers asked Jones if he had 61 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: tried to connect Maya Guerrera Gamble, the judge overseeing the trial, 62 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: to things like human trafficking and pedophilia, and he said no, 63 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: and then the lawyer played a clip of him doing 64 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: exactly that. Jones went on his show and noted that 65 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: the judge once worked for CPS or Child Productive Services. 66 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: Judge from PSHO has been exposed. That's what you mean 67 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: when you say you're taking the serious. I take this 68 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: as serious cancer. And in one of the more bizarre 69 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: lies that I had ever seen happen in a courtroom, 70 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: Jones testified that he searched his own cell phone for 71 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: any mention of Sandy Hook and that he didn't find anything. 72 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: So that means he did not give any text messages 73 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: about Sandy Hook from his phone to the court as evidence, because, 74 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: as he said, there weren't any. But that turned out 75 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: to be alive, which was revealed in the most ridiculous 76 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: way you could ever imagine. Apparently, Jones's attorneys accidentally sent 77 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: the contents of two years worth of text messages from 78 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: his cell phone to the plaintiff's attorney, and then after 79 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: the plaintiff's attorney did what they were supposed to do 80 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: and told them this, Alex Jones's attorneys took no action 81 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: to remedy it. So that's how it was determined that 82 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: there actually were tax messages on Jones's phone pertaining to 83 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: Sandy Hook, and that he failed to turn them over 84 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: to the court as evidence and lied about it pretty badly, 85 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: I should add, Mr Jones, did you know that twelve 86 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: days ago, twelve days ago, your attorney's messed up and 87 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: sitting an entire digital coin of your entire cell phone 88 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: with every text message you've sent for the past two years, 89 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: and when informed, did not take any steps to identify 90 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: it as privileged or protected in any way, And as 91 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: of two days ago, it fell free and clear in 92 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: the my possession, And that is how I know he 93 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: lied to me. This led the judge to giving Jones 94 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: a pretty stunning reminder that he is obligated to tell 95 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: the truth because he's under oath, which I feel like 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: if the judge in court has to remin mind you 97 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: that you can't lie like something is going wrong, things 98 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: are not going your way. You're already under oath to 99 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: tell the truth. You've already violated that oath twice today 100 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: in just those two examples. It seems absurd to instruct 101 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: you again that you must tell the truth while you testify. Yes, 102 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: here I am. You must tell the truth while you testify. 103 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: This is not your show. You need to slow down 104 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: and not take what you see as opportunities too further 105 00:06:45,640 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: the message you're wanting to. Let's take a quick break 106 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: center back, So we're breaking down the Alex Jones trial 107 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: for our defamation lawsuit brought by the parents of the 108 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: Sandy Hook School shooting victims, and some of the different 109 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: lies that Alex Jones got caught in during the proceedings, 110 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: Jones also lied about being bankrupt. Basically, he is being 111 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: accused of suing himself. According to Reuters, the Sandy Hook 112 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: family said that the company could not be trusted to 113 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: make accurate statements about its finances, and that Jones took 114 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: sixty two million from the company while burdening it with 115 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: sixty five million in quote fabricated debt owed to a 116 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: company that he himself owns to try to make it 117 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: seem like he has less money than he actually does 118 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: to avoid having to pay more in damages. But despite 119 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: what he might have tried to say in court, Alex 120 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: Jones actually makes really really good money telling lies about 121 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: the families of murdered children. After the plaintiffs at Herney's 122 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: got the contents of his cell phone from that ridiculous 123 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: mistake that Alex Jones's own lawyer, maid, Jones had to 124 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: admit in court that he is not as cash strapped 125 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: as he tried to say he was. In fact, he 126 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 1: admitted that during some peak periods, the Info war Store 127 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: can break in as much as a whopping eight hundred 128 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a day, and that he takes in three 129 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: hundred million annually. Now. Jones has also tried to say 130 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: that he lost lots and lots of money after being 131 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: d platformed from major social media platforms back but actually, 132 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: as Box points out, contrary to Jones's repeated assertions, he 133 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: actually became more financially profitable after his company was permanently 134 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: d platformed. He might recall that Apple was the first 135 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: to pull jones As podcast from their platform, and then 136 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: other big tech companies like Facebook and Twitter followed suit, 137 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: and it would not be an episode of this podcast 138 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: if I didn't get in a little dig at Facebook. 139 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: After Jones was d platform from Facebook, Mark zucker A 140 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: personally intervened to soften rules to allow his content to 141 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: continue to be posted on the platform by Jones as followers, 142 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: according to a report from BuzzFeed, So this is something 143 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: that I think is really key. Harmful lies, disinformation of 144 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories are lucrative info wars. It makes a lot 145 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: of money from peddling harmful conspiracy theories that ruined people's lives, 146 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: people who were already grieving for the most painful loss imaginable, 147 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: and caused real world harm in doing so. People like 148 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: Alex Jones who traffic and lies do it in part 149 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: because it makes them money, their grifters and scammers, and 150 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: there is no limit to how low they will stoop, 151 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: even lies about dead children, to make a profit. And 152 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: even though this four point one million dollar judgment really 153 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: isn't a lot of money, like it kind of sounds 154 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:53,599 Speaker 1: like it might be a drop in the bucket for 155 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: somebody like Alex Jones, I still do hope that it 156 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: sends a message that doming this arafficking and harmful lives 157 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: that hurt people and ruin people's lives for profit comes 158 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: at a cost. And I want to end with some 159 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: of the most powerful testimony that I think we saw, 160 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: which came from Scarlett Lewis, Jesse's mom, who spoke directly 161 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: to Alex Jones in the courtroom. Truth is so vital 162 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: to our rural Truth is what we base our reality on. 163 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: We have to agree on that to have a civil society. 164 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: Sandy Hook is a hard truth, hard truth. Nobody would 165 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: want to ever believe that kids could be murdered. Nobody 166 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: would ever want to believe that. I understand people not 167 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: wanting to believe that. Actually I don't want to believe it. 168 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: Jesse was real. I am a real mom. There's nothing 169 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: out there nothing, there's records of Jesse's birth, of me. 170 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I have, I have a history, and there's 171 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: nothing that you could have found because it doesn't exist. 172 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: Is that I'm deep state, It's just not true. I 173 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: know you know that. That's the problem. I know you 174 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: know that, and you keep saying it. You keep saying it. 175 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: Why why for money? Because you've made a lot of money. 176 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: Why you've said it? And She's right, Alex Jones has 177 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: made a lot of money lying about her son and 178 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: harming her family, and that's really the thing here. Listen. 179 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: I am glad that the jury awarded Scarlett Lewis and 180 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 1: Neil Hesland some money for what Alex Jones put them through, 181 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: because it sounds like hell, and I hope they get 182 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: even more in punitive damages. Frankly, I hope the families 183 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: that Alex Jones has hurt take him for everything he's got. 184 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: But I know that money cannot bring back their son, Jesse, 185 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: and it can't turn him back the clock on the 186 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: last few years that Alex Jones has spent lying about 187 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: their son, weaponizing his dead and getting its followers to 188 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: harass and threaten them, And it can't undo the damage 189 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: done to all of us. When harmful lives are platformed, 190 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: it makes us all less safe. We saw this on 191 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: January six. It can empower and embolden really dangerous people, 192 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: and we cannot have a healthy digital landscape if these 193 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: kinds of dangerous lies are also profitable, because it will 194 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: just incentivize trafficking in them. Let's build a world where 195 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: scammers like Alex Jones can't get rich off of peddling 196 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: the kinds of lies that pour Scarlet and Neil's life apart. 197 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: We all deserve better. If you're looking for ways to 198 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: support the show, check out our mark store at tangodi 199 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: dot com slash Store. Got a story about an interesting 200 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: thing in tech, or just want to say hi, you 201 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: can we just ad Hello at tangodi dot com. You 202 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. 203 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 204 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: me Brigita. It's a production of I Heart Radio and 205 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: Unbossed Rative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our 206 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. 207 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: Michael Amatta was our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. 208 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review 209 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 210 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever 211 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.