WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: Thomas Hayden 0:00:08.285 --> 0:00:15.085 School of Humans. On January eighteenth, twenty twelve, a contractor 0:00:15.165 --> 0:00:18.605 was walking along a road in Dover Township, Pennsylvania in 0:00:18.725 --> 0:00:22.925 York County when he noticed a plastic bag. The York 0:00:23.005 --> 0:00:26.525 Daily Record newspaper, who did a great investigative series on 0:00:26.525 --> 0:00:29.125 this case, by the way, interviewed the guy who found 0:00:29.165 --> 0:00:33.085 the trash. His name is Anthony. He was talking about 0:00:33.085 --> 0:00:36.245 how he got pulled into a real life horror story 0:00:36.365 --> 0:00:39.765 super randomly. Basically, he stopped to pick up a piece 0:00:39.805 --> 0:00:41.685 of trash and he was going to throw it into 0:00:41.685 --> 0:00:44.205 the back of his truck when he picked up this 0:00:44.365 --> 0:00:48.485 white plastic food Saber grocery store bag. The bag was sealed, 0:00:49.045 --> 0:00:51.245 it was heavy, and it had a weird kind of 0:00:51.325 --> 0:00:56.045 liquidity consistency. At first, he said he thought it might 0:00:56.085 --> 0:00:59.245 be a dead animal, but then he saw the blood 0:00:59.965 --> 0:01:03.125 and what looked like long, gray human hair and skin. 0:01:04.525 --> 0:01:08.565 He called the police, and the Northern York County Regional 0:01:08.605 --> 0:01:12.765 Police Department were the ones who initially responded, but they 0:01:12.845 --> 0:01:16.565 soon realized they needed additional support, so they sent the 0:01:16.605 --> 0:01:20.005 scalp to the Pennsylvania State Crime Lab for forensic analysis. 0:01:20.885 --> 0:01:24.445 The lab confirmed that this was human. They ran the 0:01:24.525 --> 0:01:27.245 DNA and they could not find a match to anyone 0:01:27.285 --> 0:01:32.405 in their system, So the human skin and hair became 0:01:32.445 --> 0:01:37.365 a John Doe case officially. Unofficially, detectives called it the 0:01:37.405 --> 0:01:41.605 food saber bagcase. So that bag and that strip of 0:01:41.645 --> 0:01:45.165 skin remained in the crime lab and that's where it 0:01:45.205 --> 0:01:49.725 stayed until five years later. This would lead detectives to 0:01:49.765 --> 0:01:53.205 a sixty seven year old, diminutive grandmother who looked like 0:01:53.245 --> 0:01:57.605 a sweet little lady, but who was guilty of pathological lies, 0:01:58.085 --> 0:02:02.845 a horrific murder, and who some people believe could even 0:02:02.925 --> 0:02:08.205 be a black widow potential serial killer. I'm Catherine Townsend. 0:02:08.645 --> 0:02:11.805 Over the past five years of making my true crime podcast, 0:02:11.845 --> 0:02:15.245 Helen Gone, I've learned that there is no such thing 0:02:15.485 --> 0:02:19.085 as a small town where murder never happens. I have 0:02:19.165 --> 0:02:22.885 received hundreds of messages from people all around the country 0:02:22.925 --> 0:02:25.565 asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, 0:02:25.685 --> 0:02:27.485 their families, and their communities. 0:02:28.765 --> 0:02:30.005 If you have a case. 0:02:29.765 --> 0:02:31.845 You'd like me and my team to look into, you 0:02:31.845 --> 0:02:34.005 can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder 0:02:34.045 --> 0:02:37.365 Line at six seven eight seven four four six one 0:02:37.405 --> 0:02:41.725 four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six 0:02:41.885 --> 0:02:42.685 one four five. 0:02:43.365 --> 0:03:31.245 This is Helen Gone murder line. 0:03:31.525 --> 0:03:35.645 So let's go back to late twenty eleven. Shortly before that, 0:03:35.725 --> 0:03:38.805 passerby made the gruesome discovery of a scalp in a 0:03:38.845 --> 0:03:43.165 food saver bag. According to the criminal complaint, the bag 0:03:43.285 --> 0:03:48.645 quote contained bloodstained items, skin and hair. There were other 0:03:48.805 --> 0:03:52.045 things in that plastic bag that had blood on them. 0:03:52.365 --> 0:03:54.645 One of those items was a piece of queen sized 0:03:54.685 --> 0:03:58.365 bed sheet, But detectives had no idea where the bed 0:03:58.365 --> 0:04:01.685 sheet came from. They didn't have a body, they didn't 0:04:01.725 --> 0:04:07.165 even have a head. Meanwhile, across the country, a woman 0:04:07.285 --> 0:04:11.205 named Kim Villa had not heard from her father, Thomas HAYDENR. 0:04:11.365 --> 0:04:14.725 In a long time. She told The York Daily Records. 0:04:14.765 --> 0:04:18.045 She and her dad were not super close, so it 0:04:18.205 --> 0:04:20.485 wasn't unusual for them not to talk for a while, 0:04:21.085 --> 0:04:24.325 but it had been years. At this point. Kim had 0:04:24.365 --> 0:04:27.045 not really talked to her father since two thousand and five. 0:04:27.805 --> 0:04:31.605 She was wondering what to do now. I bring this 0:04:31.685 --> 0:04:34.685 up because inevitably some people will say, well, she hadn't 0:04:34.685 --> 0:04:37.205 really talked to her dad in years, How does that happen? 0:04:37.565 --> 0:04:41.885 How did she not know something was wrong? Unfortunately, in 0:04:41.885 --> 0:04:45.125 this situation, I've seen it over and over in families. 0:04:45.565 --> 0:04:48.125 Someone might not realize their loved one is missing for 0:04:48.245 --> 0:04:51.885 months or sometimes years, and there are reasons why this happens. 0:04:53.125 --> 0:04:55.685 Kim said. The reason this happened in her case is 0:04:55.685 --> 0:04:58.965 because Thomas's wife, his second wife, Virginia, who he had 0:04:58.965 --> 0:05:02.805 married in nineteen ninety eight, was telling Kim that Thomas 0:05:02.885 --> 0:05:05.285 was there, that he was sitting right there, but that 0:05:05.325 --> 0:05:08.445 he just didn't want to talk to Kim because of 0:05:08.485 --> 0:05:11.605 things that had happened in the past. Kim had believed 0:05:11.685 --> 0:05:15.805 Virginia for a long time. Kim told the newspaper Tom 0:05:16.005 --> 0:05:19.045 was not a perfect man. It seemed like Tom had 0:05:19.085 --> 0:05:22.765 had a pretty rough childhood. She said that her own 0:05:22.845 --> 0:05:26.925 childhood had involved physical and verbal abuse at times from 0:05:26.925 --> 0:05:32.525 her father. Thomas was originally from Maryland. He married Kim's 0:05:32.525 --> 0:05:35.725 mom his first wife, when he was young. They were 0:05:35.765 --> 0:05:39.485 married for twenty years. He worked several different jobs, so 0:05:39.725 --> 0:05:43.125 the family moved around the country a lot. They eventually 0:05:43.205 --> 0:05:47.005 settled in Gonzales, Louisiana, for a while he worked as 0:05:47.005 --> 0:05:51.245 a police officer, Then the family moved to Virginia. At 0:05:51.285 --> 0:05:54.285 some point, Thomas was working for the Postal Service and 0:05:54.405 --> 0:05:57.765 on that job, he got injured. After that, he was 0:05:57.845 --> 0:06:02.685 eligible to receive Social Security disability. By the mid nineties, 0:06:03.165 --> 0:06:06.205 Thomas had divorced his first wife after twenty five of marriage, 0:06:06.525 --> 0:06:09.365 and he was ready to date again. So he got 0:06:09.405 --> 0:06:12.885 a friend to help him get online and try chatting 0:06:12.925 --> 0:06:17.525 to women. That's how he met Virginia Fogel. They ended 0:06:17.565 --> 0:06:20.685 up meeting in real life and they started dating. Thomas 0:06:20.685 --> 0:06:24.365 and Virginia married in nineteen ninety eight. Now this part 0:06:24.405 --> 0:06:28.285 is interesting because multiple media sources say neither of their 0:06:28.325 --> 0:06:33.325 families neither Thomas's or Virginia's knew about the wedding until afterwards, which, 0:06:33.845 --> 0:06:38.845 let's be honest, is never a great sign. Kim told 0:06:38.885 --> 0:06:41.725 the newspaper she didn't like her stepmom. She did not 0:06:41.925 --> 0:06:45.085 trust Virginia. She was suspicious of her pretty much from 0:06:45.085 --> 0:06:48.005 the start. She felt that she was kind of insincere. 0:06:48.885 --> 0:06:51.525 I know this is something I've said before many times, 0:06:51.885 --> 0:06:54.245 but it is very difficult to be in that position, 0:06:54.685 --> 0:06:57.365 the position of being suspicious of someone that a family 0:06:57.405 --> 0:07:01.885 member is dating, because sometimes in those situations when you 0:07:01.965 --> 0:07:04.565 try to warn the family member, people do tend to 0:07:04.605 --> 0:07:07.405 shoot the messenger. I've been there myself, and it could 0:07:07.445 --> 0:07:10.085 be really difficult to walk that fine line between telling 0:07:10.125 --> 0:07:13.005 someone the truth, telling them the information you feel they 0:07:13.005 --> 0:07:17.245 should know, and not alienating them. I don't really have 0:07:17.445 --> 0:07:20.165 any great advice to give about these situations, by the way, 0:07:20.605 --> 0:07:22.925 I just want to let people out there know it 0:07:22.965 --> 0:07:27.405 does happen, and actually I've been there myself. Virginia was 0:07:27.405 --> 0:07:30.685 born in nineteen fifty one. It seemed like from what 0:07:30.725 --> 0:07:34.485 The York Daily Record said, her own family said that 0:07:34.565 --> 0:07:37.805 she was kind of a pathological liar growing up. Her 0:07:37.925 --> 0:07:41.365 children said they never really knew their mom. They never 0:07:41.405 --> 0:07:44.485 really knew what was going on. Virginia had some weird 0:07:44.525 --> 0:07:48.485 stories about her background. For example, she said her biological 0:07:48.565 --> 0:07:52.325 mother traded her to someone else. Another couple things like that. 0:07:53.165 --> 0:07:55.725 The children basically never knew what was true and what 0:07:55.885 --> 0:07:59.645 wasn't true, which meant that when Virginia did tell crazy stories, 0:08:00.205 --> 0:08:02.965 even if sometimes they were true, people tended not to 0:08:03.005 --> 0:08:08.525 believe her. This will become important later. Long story short, 0:08:09.325 --> 0:08:13.045 Virginia's own children did not know much about her, or 0:08:13.165 --> 0:08:16.645 about really their own family background. A lot of it 0:08:16.725 --> 0:08:21.885 was a mystery. After Thomas disappeared, Kim, his daughter, and 0:08:22.005 --> 0:08:25.005 the rest of her family found out something else. They 0:08:25.085 --> 0:08:28.645 found out that their dad was not Virginia's first husband, 0:08:29.285 --> 0:08:32.205 or even her second husband, like many of them had assumed. 0:08:32.965 --> 0:08:37.965 Thomas was Virginia's third husband. Virginia had been married twice before, 0:08:38.045 --> 0:08:44.325 and both of her husbands had died very suddenly. Virginia's 0:08:44.365 --> 0:08:47.485 first husband, I say first, but with the caveat that 0:08:47.525 --> 0:08:50.845 it's the first that we know about. Knowing her proclivities, 0:08:51.245 --> 0:08:55.445 I would question everything as far as we know. Virginia's 0:08:55.485 --> 0:08:58.765 first husband was a man named Edward Claba. He was 0:08:58.805 --> 0:09:02.805 a janitor at Sykesville Middle School in Maryland. Virginia and 0:09:02.885 --> 0:09:06.005 Edward were super young when they got together. When they married, 0:09:06.085 --> 0:09:09.565 Virginia was still high school age. They divorced in nineteen 0:09:09.605 --> 0:09:13.485 seventy three. Virginia's daughter Carolyn told The York Daily Record 0:09:13.485 --> 0:09:16.845 they split up because Virginia was having an affair, and 0:09:16.885 --> 0:09:21.645 then tragedy struck. Virginia's ex husband was found hanging in 0:09:21.685 --> 0:09:24.645 the school gym on November twenty first, nineteen seventy four, 0:09:25.245 --> 0:09:28.165 less than a year after they were divorced. It was 0:09:28.205 --> 0:09:32.205 determined that he had taken his own life. Virginia then 0:09:32.325 --> 0:09:36.005 married her second husband, Floyd Fogel, shortly after that, also 0:09:36.045 --> 0:09:39.725 in nineteen seventy four, Virginia was about twenty three. By then, 0:09:40.205 --> 0:09:43.925 Floyd was a lot older, and they had a little 0:09:43.925 --> 0:09:47.285 bit of a scandal to start with. Apparently, Virginia was 0:09:47.325 --> 0:09:50.205 the babysitter for Floyd Fogel. They started to have a 0:09:50.245 --> 0:09:54.125 sexual affair, she got pregnant, and eventually they got married. 0:09:55.085 --> 0:09:58.605 They had a daughter together named Connie. Virginia was very 0:09:58.605 --> 0:10:01.925 close to Connie, and Virginia and Floyd were married for 0:10:01.965 --> 0:10:05.845 about sixteen years until nineteen ninety that's when Floyd died 0:10:05.845 --> 0:10:09.085 of a massive heart attack. That would mean when Floyd died, 0:10:09.205 --> 0:10:13.485 Virginia was thirty nine, still young and looking for love again. 0:10:14.525 --> 0:10:17.565 As we said before, she married Thomas eight years later 0:10:17.645 --> 0:10:21.085 in nineteen ninety eight. She was forty seven. Thomas was 0:10:21.125 --> 0:10:25.525 five years younger. Virginia and Thomas sold their properties. They 0:10:25.605 --> 0:10:28.005 bought an RV together, and it was hard for his 0:10:28.165 --> 0:10:31.525 family to keep track of him because Virginia and Thomas 0:10:31.645 --> 0:10:35.405 crossed the country. They moved around a lot. Again, in 0:10:35.445 --> 0:10:40.045 these cases, the family dynamic can be very tricky. Some 0:10:40.205 --> 0:10:43.005 family members had their own issues with Thomas, and they 0:10:43.045 --> 0:10:45.805 didn't realize that the rest of the family was not 0:10:45.885 --> 0:10:50.045 able to locate him. The last time that Kim spoke 0:10:50.085 --> 0:10:53.205 to her father was in two thousand and five, and 0:10:53.245 --> 0:10:55.805 then for the next couple of years, as we said before, 0:10:56.485 --> 0:10:59.045 she didn't speak to him at all. She would call, 0:10:59.205 --> 0:11:02.245 Virginia would answer, and Virginia would always have an excuse 0:11:02.365 --> 0:11:05.485 for why Thomas couldn't come to the phone. Kim blamed 0:11:05.605 --> 0:11:08.485 herself since she had had a minor argument with her 0:11:08.565 --> 0:11:11.325 dad the last time they spoke. It seems like Virginia 0:11:11.445 --> 0:11:13.485 kind of used that as a reason why her dad 0:11:13.525 --> 0:11:17.325 apparently didn't want to talk to her. Kim got frustrated 0:11:17.325 --> 0:11:20.605 with this. She started asking Virginia basically for proof of life. 0:11:21.125 --> 0:11:24.205 She wanted Virginia to send her a photo of her father. 0:11:24.885 --> 0:11:26.805 She said she wanted this even if he wasn't up 0:11:26.845 --> 0:11:28.925 to talking to her. She wanted to know he was okay, 0:11:28.965 --> 0:11:33.525 but Virginia refused. Then Virginia told her Thomas didn't want 0:11:33.525 --> 0:11:35.725 to have anything to do with her at all. She 0:11:35.805 --> 0:11:39.405 said Thomas had called Kim a greedy little bitch. This 0:11:39.525 --> 0:11:42.285 blew Kim away because she had never known her father 0:11:42.365 --> 0:11:46.045 to talk about her like that. Later, Virginia told her 0:11:46.125 --> 0:11:48.765 her father hated her, hated the rest of the family, 0:11:48.805 --> 0:11:51.885 and didn't want to see any of them. Kim was 0:11:51.965 --> 0:11:55.165 growing more and more concerned. She wanted to know what 0:11:55.245 --> 0:11:58.365 happened to her father, and Kim started to figure out 0:11:58.445 --> 0:12:01.725 it wasn't just her. Her brothers had not talked to 0:12:01.765 --> 0:12:06.285 her dad either. Then Thomas's brother passed away and twenty fourteen, 0:12:07.125 --> 0:12:10.565 Thomas did not even come to the funeral. After that, 0:12:10.765 --> 0:12:14.765 pretty much the whole family knew that something was very wrong. 0:12:18.805 --> 0:12:22.045 So then one day Kim told the newspaper she got 0:12:22.125 --> 0:12:25.285 a call out of the blue. It was Carolyn, one 0:12:25.285 --> 0:12:28.925 of Virginia's other daughters. Carolyn asked Kim if she had 0:12:28.925 --> 0:12:32.285 talked to Thomas recently. Kim said no, and Carolyn said 0:12:32.445 --> 0:12:35.365 she was worried about Thomas, who was her stepfather. She 0:12:35.445 --> 0:12:37.445 said she had not spoken to him since the fall 0:12:37.485 --> 0:12:41.605 of twenty eleven. She had been close to Thomas. Carolyn 0:12:41.685 --> 0:12:44.365 said she was surprised that her stepfather never showed up 0:12:44.365 --> 0:12:47.365 to her Christmas party that year, and then she never 0:12:47.405 --> 0:12:51.245 saw him again. So now Kim has gone from being 0:12:51.245 --> 0:12:54.525 concerned about her dad to having the terrifying feeling that 0:12:54.565 --> 0:12:59.085 her dad was gone and never coming back. What happened 0:12:59.085 --> 0:13:02.045 to Thomas? How could he just disappear so suddenly? And 0:13:02.085 --> 0:13:05.805 how did Virginia explain that to everyone? It turned out 0:13:05.845 --> 0:13:08.525 that it depended on who you asked. She told some 0:13:08.565 --> 0:13:11.005 people that Thomas was in Mexico taking care of some 0:13:11.205 --> 0:13:14.725 mystery medical condition. She told other people that he had als. 0:13:15.845 --> 0:13:19.565 When Carolyn asked her mother about Thomas, Virginia said Thomas 0:13:19.605 --> 0:13:21.525 was gone, but that he left a note for Carolyn. 0:13:22.485 --> 0:13:25.405 Carolyn looked at the note that Thomas had supposedly left behind, 0:13:25.445 --> 0:13:28.045 and she noticed it didn't seem to make a lot 0:13:28.085 --> 0:13:31.645 of sense. First of all, it started out Dearest Carolyn, 0:13:31.925 --> 0:13:34.725 which Carolyn said was not the way that Thomas talked. 0:13:35.285 --> 0:13:39.845 It felt very unnatural. The language was way too flowery, 0:13:40.445 --> 0:13:42.725 and the letters said that he was never coming back. 0:13:43.525 --> 0:13:46.045 So she was probably asking herself if that was how 0:13:46.045 --> 0:13:48.045 he felt, why he didn't just tell her, or at 0:13:48.125 --> 0:13:50.325 least text her or call her and tell her that 0:13:51.085 --> 0:13:54.605 she knew something was up. So that's when Carolyn called Kim. 0:13:55.285 --> 0:13:58.845 Carolyn and Kim joined forces. They were determined to figure 0:13:58.885 --> 0:14:02.765 out what really happened to Thomas. In twenty sixteen, Kim 0:14:02.845 --> 0:14:06.925 hired a private investigator, The investigators started surveillance on Virginia. 0:14:07.405 --> 0:14:10.165 By this time, Virginia had moved into her own apartment. 0:14:10.925 --> 0:14:14.205 The PI interviewed neighbors and people who interacted with Virginia 0:14:14.245 --> 0:14:17.205 on a regular basis. Even though she was a pretty 0:14:17.205 --> 0:14:21.285 private person, on occasion, she did like to talk about herself. 0:14:22.165 --> 0:14:24.725 When people asked if Thomas was gone and what happened 0:14:24.725 --> 0:14:28.925 to him, she told them that Thomas was in Mexico. Again. 0:14:29.205 --> 0:14:31.685 She told some people that he had als or lou 0:14:31.765 --> 0:14:36.525 Garry's disease. Apparently, she also told some people that Thomas 0:14:36.605 --> 0:14:41.085 was dead or some combination of those three excuses. None 0:14:41.125 --> 0:14:43.485 of the stories matched, but no one figured that out 0:14:43.525 --> 0:14:48.685 for a long time. The PI told Kim that Virginia 0:14:48.765 --> 0:14:51.965 was telling people that Thomas had left her suddenly sometime 0:14:51.965 --> 0:14:57.045 in twenty eleven. On January twenty first, twenty seventeen, Kim 0:14:57.165 --> 0:15:00.045 called the Pennsylvania State Police to perform a welfare check 0:15:00.085 --> 0:15:02.645 on her father. They went to the apartment and talked 0:15:02.645 --> 0:15:05.805 to Virginia. She told them that her husband had left 0:15:05.805 --> 0:15:08.365 her in twenty eleven. She said he had gone to 0:15:08.365 --> 0:15:11.645 get medical treatment in Mexico and that he never came back. 0:15:12.645 --> 0:15:15.165 They asked her well, how did he leave the house 0:15:15.205 --> 0:15:18.285 without a vehicle. She said that his brother, Spencer, had 0:15:18.285 --> 0:15:22.005 picked him up. But police found Spencer, they talked to him, 0:15:22.245 --> 0:15:25.245 he said this was absolutely not true. He never picked 0:15:25.245 --> 0:15:27.965 his brother up. He never took him to Mexico or 0:15:27.965 --> 0:15:32.525 anywhere else. Police were obviously very suspicious, but they needed 0:15:32.525 --> 0:15:36.125 more evidence. Now, I do want to call out the 0:15:36.405 --> 0:15:39.885 really good work of the police department, because in so 0:15:40.005 --> 0:15:43.525 many of these cases, people call me literally almost every 0:15:43.565 --> 0:15:46.685 week with a story about how a family member has 0:15:46.685 --> 0:15:51.485 disappeared unexpectedly. They believe someone's lying about it, but often 0:15:51.885 --> 0:15:55.765 police do not investigate further. In this case, the police did. 0:15:56.205 --> 0:15:58.485 They really took the time to build a case and 0:15:58.525 --> 0:16:01.685 put the pieces together. They followed the paper trail on 0:16:01.725 --> 0:16:05.405 the house. They found out that on November fourth, twenty thirteen, 0:16:06.165 --> 0:16:09.125 Thomas Hayden had sold his share of the condo he 0:16:09.205 --> 0:16:13.525 owned to his wife for one dollar. That transaction happens 0:16:13.525 --> 0:16:17.125 a lot between husbands and wives, so that part is 0:16:17.245 --> 0:16:19.725 not necessarily a red flag. But the next part to 0:16:19.925 --> 0:16:23.605 police absolutely was. Because they looked at the person who 0:16:23.645 --> 0:16:28.165 would notarized this transaction. They found out this signature was 0:16:28.245 --> 0:16:34.365 Connie Pender Virginia's daughter. Police later pulled in a handwriting expert. 0:16:35.125 --> 0:16:38.605 The expert's opinion was that Virginia Hayden had signed Thomas's 0:16:38.645 --> 0:16:41.845 name to that document, according to the criminal complaint. The 0:16:41.925 --> 0:16:46.165 next year, Virginia sold the condominium to someone else. The 0:16:46.205 --> 0:16:49.845 buyer paid one hundred and thirty five thousand dollars. Police 0:16:49.885 --> 0:16:52.445 tracked down the guy who had bought the condominium from Virginia. 0:16:53.165 --> 0:16:56.125 He said when he bought the place, he bought it 0:16:56.165 --> 0:16:59.005 basically as is. He said a bunch of furniture and 0:16:59.045 --> 0:17:02.245 other stuff was included as part of the sale, but 0:17:02.485 --> 0:17:04.925 he said he noticed that when he moved in, a 0:17:04.965 --> 0:17:09.125 couple of tho items were missing, including a queen size 0:17:09.165 --> 0:17:12.565 bed and a large rubber mat that had been in 0:17:12.605 --> 0:17:17.325 the garage on the floor. They asked him if Virginia 0:17:17.325 --> 0:17:20.685 had mentioned her husband. The buyer said Virginia told him 0:17:20.765 --> 0:17:24.725 her husband was dead. But when police asked Virginia about this, 0:17:24.765 --> 0:17:28.125 about these conflicting stories, she always had an excuse, and 0:17:28.205 --> 0:17:31.245 by now she was telling everybody Thomas had been abusive. 0:17:32.205 --> 0:17:34.765 She said Thomas had been so abusive to her that 0:17:34.805 --> 0:17:36.365 he was dead to her, and that's why she was 0:17:36.405 --> 0:17:40.365 telling people he was dead. So after Kim made the 0:17:40.405 --> 0:17:44.125 missing person's report and the welfare check happened, the information 0:17:44.325 --> 0:17:47.845 was shared with the Northern York County Regional Police, and 0:17:47.885 --> 0:17:52.045 a detective there remembered the food Saber case. They pulled 0:17:52.125 --> 0:17:55.605 up Thomas's driver's license. When they saw him, and they 0:17:55.605 --> 0:17:59.125 saw his long gray hair, they wondered if he might 0:17:59.325 --> 0:18:03.045 be the person they'd been trying to id from that case. 0:18:03.885 --> 0:18:08.325 Forensic testing indicated that Thomas's DNA was a match to 0:18:08.445 --> 0:18:11.805 the scalp they found in the food Saver bag. Those 0:18:11.885 --> 0:18:16.325 remains had been sitting there for six years. Finally, Thomas's 0:18:16.365 --> 0:18:21.805 family knew what happened to him. Detectives believed they knew 0:18:21.805 --> 0:18:26.045 what happened to Thomas too. They absolutely believed Virginia had 0:18:26.125 --> 0:18:30.045 killed him. Detectives had a lot of circumstantial evidence here. 0:18:30.485 --> 0:18:33.245 They also have stories that don't match, and, as we 0:18:33.285 --> 0:18:36.525 have seen on so many cases, stories that don't match 0:18:36.565 --> 0:18:41.245 our huge potential red flags. But Virginia was a good liar. 0:18:41.685 --> 0:18:43.765 She had an excuse for that. She said she made 0:18:43.805 --> 0:18:46.005 stories up because she was embarrassed about the fact that 0:18:46.045 --> 0:18:48.765 Thomas left her. She told other people that he had 0:18:48.805 --> 0:18:52.485 been so abusive. She was trying to forget so even 0:18:52.525 --> 0:18:55.365 though they caught her in lies, it was difficult to 0:18:55.445 --> 0:19:00.845 prove they still didn't have a body. In July twenty seventeen, 0:19:01.045 --> 0:19:06.005 police interviewed Virginia. She told them a bunch of different stories. First, 0:19:06.125 --> 0:19:08.805 she said she was embarrassed about Thomas leaving her. That's 0:19:08.845 --> 0:19:12.125 why she said that he went to Mexico. Then suddenly 0:19:12.165 --> 0:19:15.405 she said she actually had seen Thomas since he disappeared. 0:19:16.165 --> 0:19:18.565 She said she saw him in Puerto Rico while she 0:19:18.645 --> 0:19:22.325 was visiting there in twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen. She 0:19:22.405 --> 0:19:25.605 said Thomas was abusive. He was physically abusive. She was 0:19:25.725 --> 0:19:28.845 terrified of him. She said that's why she hadn't said anything, 0:19:28.925 --> 0:19:31.925 because she had been so scared when she saw him again. 0:19:32.685 --> 0:19:34.725 Police knew by this point she was full of it. 0:19:35.085 --> 0:19:39.285 There was no evidence that Thomas was ever abusive to her. Finally, 0:19:39.885 --> 0:19:43.645 they took a picture of the scalp in the plastic 0:19:43.685 --> 0:19:46.885 bag and they showed it to her, But detectives noted 0:19:46.965 --> 0:19:49.165 she didn't really have any reaction to that. In fact, 0:19:49.685 --> 0:19:52.085 she didn't have much of a reaction to anything. She 0:19:52.165 --> 0:19:56.485 seemed totally emotionally flat. So while all this is going on, 0:19:56.725 --> 0:19:59.045 police are trying to find people who can shed some 0:19:59.245 --> 0:20:03.085 light on Virginia's real character. They did find one person 0:20:03.085 --> 0:20:07.005 who she was close to, her grandson, Mike Harris. Police 0:20:07.045 --> 0:20:09.925 talked to Michael and he said he and his grandma 0:20:09.965 --> 0:20:12.245 would joke all the time about the best ways to 0:20:12.245 --> 0:20:15.405 get rid of a body. He said that Virginia used 0:20:15.445 --> 0:20:18.965 to joke about how feeding a body to pigs with 0:20:19.005 --> 0:20:23.565 the perfect disposal method, because apparently pigs would eat everything 0:20:24.765 --> 0:20:29.965 except the hair and not leave behind any traces. Her 0:20:30.005 --> 0:20:33.165 grandson said they would watch true crime shows together. He 0:20:33.205 --> 0:20:36.805 described her as cool. He said she also told him 0:20:37.085 --> 0:20:38.965 if you wanted to get rid of a body in 0:20:39.045 --> 0:20:41.885 a body of water, you had to stab it multiple 0:20:41.925 --> 0:20:45.085 times to make sure that it would sink. Side note. 0:20:45.205 --> 0:20:47.845 This part was especially freaky to me and I'm sure 0:20:47.885 --> 0:20:51.205 to many true crime fans because real talk. I make 0:20:51.245 --> 0:20:53.565 these kind of jokes all the time. My mom and 0:20:53.605 --> 0:20:56.525 I watch true crime shows together. It's always been our thing. 0:20:56.965 --> 0:21:00.685 So the idea that someone would joke about this not 0:21:00.845 --> 0:21:03.445 because the humor deflects some of the dark thoughts or 0:21:03.485 --> 0:21:06.285 the horror of what is happening, but because she did 0:21:06.325 --> 0:21:11.605 this for real is absolutely terrifying. It's like Patrick Bateman 0:21:11.645 --> 0:21:16.005 from American Psycho in the body of this innocent looking grandma. 0:21:16.285 --> 0:21:19.165 Police tried to figure out if Virginia had had a 0:21:19.165 --> 0:21:22.485 grain of truth in those comments. They did find out 0:21:22.525 --> 0:21:26.165 that shortly after Thomas vanished, Virginia did some housework. She 0:21:26.205 --> 0:21:30.165 did some home improvements. One of those was pouring down 0:21:30.205 --> 0:21:34.045 some concrete for a new patio in the backyard. This 0:21:34.125 --> 0:21:36.725 is crazy and dark as well. She and her son 0:21:36.765 --> 0:21:40.005 in law Michael, actually joked about that patio. She made 0:21:40.045 --> 0:21:42.565 a comment about how there could be a body down there. 0:21:42.605 --> 0:21:45.645 They could be hiding a body. Police searched that area 0:21:45.725 --> 0:21:49.125 with ground penetrating radar and dogs, but in the end 0:21:49.245 --> 0:21:54.485 they found nothing. Luckily, according to police, Virginia did something 0:21:54.645 --> 0:21:58.085 that helped them. This always amazes me when this happens, 0:21:58.085 --> 0:22:00.765 but it happens a lot. There are a lot of 0:22:00.885 --> 0:22:03.205 narcissistic people in the world, and a lot of people 0:22:03.205 --> 0:22:06.525 who are narcissistic and who lie. It's like, even when 0:22:06.565 --> 0:22:09.365 they should be quiet, they keep talking. I think it's 0:22:09.365 --> 0:22:12.845 because they're so convinced they can lie convincingly. They've been 0:22:12.885 --> 0:22:15.765 able to deceive so many people for so long that 0:22:16.285 --> 0:22:18.605 they just think that they're going to continue their story 0:22:18.645 --> 0:22:21.885 is going to be believable. They can't see how ridiculous 0:22:21.925 --> 0:22:24.805 their own story is. If you're lucky, they will keep 0:22:24.845 --> 0:22:28.725 talking and sometimes they will shoot themselves in the foot. 0:22:28.965 --> 0:22:32.085 And that seems to be kind of what happened here. Remember, 0:22:32.125 --> 0:22:35.285 the detectives were following the money they found out about 0:22:35.325 --> 0:22:39.645 the condo, and then because remember Thomas was receiving Social 0:22:39.645 --> 0:22:43.765 Security payments, they found over one hundred and sixteen thousand 0:22:43.805 --> 0:22:47.365 dollars had been deposited in the joint account Thomas shared 0:22:47.405 --> 0:22:51.405 with Virginia. Virginia continued to take that money after Thomas 0:22:51.525 --> 0:22:55.365 was gone. Sometimes if investigators can't get someone from murder 0:22:55.445 --> 0:22:59.485 right away, they will start with fraud because the federal 0:22:59.525 --> 0:23:04.045 government will get their money. But the criminal investigation continued. 0:23:04.645 --> 0:23:07.805 They executed US search warrant on Virginia's home. They found 0:23:07.805 --> 0:23:09.845 a lock box with all of Thomas's stuff in it, 0:23:09.925 --> 0:23:13.605 including his driver's license and his passport, which, by the way, 0:23:13.645 --> 0:23:15.965 he would have needed for foreign travel to Mexico or 0:23:16.005 --> 0:23:19.645 anywhere else. It was right there. His Social Security card 0:23:19.725 --> 0:23:22.605 was there. This is something that it seems like he 0:23:22.725 --> 0:23:26.565 never would have left home. Without Also, why, even if 0:23:26.605 --> 0:23:29.165 he was planning on leaving, and especially if he planned 0:23:29.165 --> 0:23:32.525 on getting medical treatment, would he ever stop taking his money. 0:23:32.925 --> 0:23:36.965 That idea is absolutely ridiculous. It makes zero sense. They 0:23:37.045 --> 0:23:40.445 checked records. They found that Thomas's passport had never been used, 0:23:41.045 --> 0:23:43.965 so there was no evidence he ever went to Mexico 0:23:44.285 --> 0:23:48.725 or anywhere outside the US. He also had not accessed 0:23:48.885 --> 0:23:53.365 his bank account or any money since he disappeared. They 0:23:53.365 --> 0:23:56.805 were also checking out other elements of Virginia's story. They 0:23:56.845 --> 0:23:59.565 tried to verify the information that she had given them 0:23:59.645 --> 0:24:03.565 about Thomas's illnesses. They went through his medical records. They 0:24:03.605 --> 0:24:06.805 found no evidence at all of any serious illness or 0:24:06.885 --> 0:24:10.405 terminal illness, no evidence that he ever, at any point 0:24:10.445 --> 0:24:14.125 was diagnosed with als. They did find, though, that Thomas 0:24:14.165 --> 0:24:18.485 regularly saw his doctors. His last doctor's appointment in person 0:24:18.965 --> 0:24:22.645 was on September twenty seventh, twenty eleven. He was supposed 0:24:22.645 --> 0:24:25.765 to see the doctor again on October twenty fifth, but 0:24:25.845 --> 0:24:29.525 Virginia canceled that appointment. She told the doctor her husband 0:24:29.525 --> 0:24:35.125 had left town. They found out that Virginia had bought 0:24:35.125 --> 0:24:38.685 a gun. Records showed that she had bought a three 0:24:38.805 --> 0:24:43.005 fifty seven caliber handgun on October second, twenty eleven. She 0:24:43.165 --> 0:24:46.525 claimed she sold it to a private party. Police never 0:24:46.565 --> 0:24:49.365 got the weapon. They found something else that I thought 0:24:49.405 --> 0:24:52.565 was interesting. They found Virginia's day planner in her house. 0:24:53.525 --> 0:24:57.525 Next to November one, twenty eleven, Virginia wrote Tom had 0:24:57.605 --> 0:25:01.565