1 00:00:08,285 --> 00:00:15,085 Speaker 1: School of Humans. On January eighteenth, twenty twelve, a contractor 2 00:00:15,165 --> 00:00:18,605 Speaker 1: was walking along a road in Dover Township, Pennsylvania in 3 00:00:18,725 --> 00:00:22,925 Speaker 1: York County when he noticed a plastic bag. The York 4 00:00:23,005 --> 00:00:26,525 Speaker 1: Daily Record newspaper, who did a great investigative series on 5 00:00:26,525 --> 00:00:29,125 Speaker 1: this case, by the way, interviewed the guy who found 6 00:00:29,165 --> 00:00:33,085 Speaker 1: the trash. His name is Anthony. He was talking about 7 00:00:33,085 --> 00:00:36,245 Speaker 1: how he got pulled into a real life horror story 8 00:00:36,365 --> 00:00:39,765 Speaker 1: super randomly. Basically, he stopped to pick up a piece 9 00:00:39,805 --> 00:00:41,685 Speaker 1: of trash and he was going to throw it into 10 00:00:41,685 --> 00:00:44,205 Speaker 1: the back of his truck when he picked up this 11 00:00:44,365 --> 00:00:48,485 Speaker 1: white plastic food Saber grocery store bag. The bag was sealed, 12 00:00:49,045 --> 00:00:51,245 Speaker 1: it was heavy, and it had a weird kind of 13 00:00:51,325 --> 00:00:56,045 Speaker 1: liquidity consistency. At first, he said he thought it might 14 00:00:56,085 --> 00:00:59,245 Speaker 1: be a dead animal, but then he saw the blood 15 00:00:59,965 --> 00:01:03,125 Speaker 1: and what looked like long, gray human hair and skin. 16 00:01:04,525 --> 00:01:08,565 Speaker 1: He called the police, and the Northern York County Regional 17 00:01:08,605 --> 00:01:12,765 Speaker 1: Police Department were the ones who initially responded, but they 18 00:01:12,845 --> 00:01:16,565 Speaker 1: soon realized they needed additional support, so they sent the 19 00:01:16,605 --> 00:01:20,005 Speaker 1: scalp to the Pennsylvania State Crime Lab for forensic analysis. 20 00:01:20,885 --> 00:01:24,445 Speaker 1: The lab confirmed that this was human. They ran the 21 00:01:24,525 --> 00:01:27,245 Speaker 1: DNA and they could not find a match to anyone 22 00:01:27,285 --> 00:01:32,405 Speaker 1: in their system, So the human skin and hair became 23 00:01:32,445 --> 00:01:37,365 Speaker 1: a John Doe case officially. Unofficially, detectives called it the 24 00:01:37,405 --> 00:01:41,605 Speaker 1: food saber bagcase. So that bag and that strip of 25 00:01:41,645 --> 00:01:45,165 Speaker 1: skin remained in the crime lab and that's where it 26 00:01:45,205 --> 00:01:49,725 Speaker 1: stayed until five years later. This would lead detectives to 27 00:01:49,765 --> 00:01:53,205 Speaker 1: a sixty seven year old, diminutive grandmother who looked like 28 00:01:53,245 --> 00:01:57,605 Speaker 1: a sweet little lady, but who was guilty of pathological lies, 29 00:01:58,085 --> 00:02:02,845 Speaker 1: a horrific murder, and who some people believe could even 30 00:02:02,925 --> 00:02:08,205 Speaker 1: be a black widow potential serial killer. I'm Catherine Townsend. 31 00:02:08,645 --> 00:02:11,805 Speaker 1: Over the past five years of making my true crime podcast, 32 00:02:11,845 --> 00:02:15,245 Speaker 1: Helen Gone, I've learned that there is no such thing 33 00:02:15,485 --> 00:02:19,085 Speaker 1: as a small town where murder never happens. I have 34 00:02:19,165 --> 00:02:22,885 Speaker 1: received hundreds of messages from people all around the country 35 00:02:22,925 --> 00:02:25,565 Speaker 1: asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, 36 00:02:25,685 --> 00:02:27,485 Speaker 1: their families, and their communities. 37 00:02:28,765 --> 00:02:30,005 Speaker 2: If you have a case. 38 00:02:29,765 --> 00:02:31,845 Speaker 1: You'd like me and my team to look into, you 39 00:02:31,845 --> 00:02:34,005 Speaker 1: can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder 40 00:02:34,045 --> 00:02:37,365 Speaker 1: Line at six seven eight seven four four six one 41 00:02:37,405 --> 00:02:41,725 Speaker 1: four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six 42 00:02:41,885 --> 00:02:42,685 Speaker 1: one four five. 43 00:02:43,365 --> 00:03:31,245 Speaker 2: This is Helen Gone murder line. 44 00:03:31,525 --> 00:03:35,645 Speaker 1: So let's go back to late twenty eleven. Shortly before that, 45 00:03:35,725 --> 00:03:38,805 Speaker 1: passerby made the gruesome discovery of a scalp in a 46 00:03:38,845 --> 00:03:43,165 Speaker 1: food saver bag. According to the criminal complaint, the bag 47 00:03:43,285 --> 00:03:48,645 Speaker 1: quote contained bloodstained items, skin and hair. There were other 48 00:03:48,805 --> 00:03:52,045 Speaker 1: things in that plastic bag that had blood on them. 49 00:03:52,365 --> 00:03:54,645 Speaker 1: One of those items was a piece of queen sized 50 00:03:54,685 --> 00:03:58,365 Speaker 1: bed sheet, But detectives had no idea where the bed 51 00:03:58,365 --> 00:04:01,685 Speaker 1: sheet came from. They didn't have a body, they didn't 52 00:04:01,725 --> 00:04:07,165 Speaker 1: even have a head. Meanwhile, across the country, a woman 53 00:04:07,285 --> 00:04:11,205 Speaker 1: named Kim Villa had not heard from her father, Thomas HAYDENR. 54 00:04:11,365 --> 00:04:14,725 Speaker 1: In a long time. She told The York Daily Records. 55 00:04:14,765 --> 00:04:18,045 Speaker 1: She and her dad were not super close, so it 56 00:04:18,205 --> 00:04:20,485 Speaker 1: wasn't unusual for them not to talk for a while, 57 00:04:21,085 --> 00:04:24,325 Speaker 1: but it had been years. At this point. Kim had 58 00:04:24,365 --> 00:04:27,045 Speaker 1: not really talked to her father since two thousand and five. 59 00:04:27,805 --> 00:04:31,605 Speaker 1: She was wondering what to do now. I bring this 60 00:04:31,685 --> 00:04:34,685 Speaker 1: up because inevitably some people will say, well, she hadn't 61 00:04:34,685 --> 00:04:37,205 Speaker 1: really talked to her dad in years, How does that happen? 62 00:04:37,565 --> 00:04:41,885 Speaker 1: How did she not know something was wrong? Unfortunately, in 63 00:04:41,885 --> 00:04:45,125 Speaker 1: this situation, I've seen it over and over in families. 64 00:04:45,565 --> 00:04:48,125 Speaker 1: Someone might not realize their loved one is missing for 65 00:04:48,245 --> 00:04:51,885 Speaker 1: months or sometimes years, and there are reasons why this happens. 66 00:04:53,125 --> 00:04:55,685 Speaker 1: Kim said. The reason this happened in her case is 67 00:04:55,685 --> 00:04:58,965 Speaker 1: because Thomas's wife, his second wife, Virginia, who he had 68 00:04:58,965 --> 00:05:02,805 Speaker 1: married in nineteen ninety eight, was telling Kim that Thomas 69 00:05:02,885 --> 00:05:05,285 Speaker 1: was there, that he was sitting right there, but that 70 00:05:05,325 --> 00:05:08,445 Speaker 1: he just didn't want to talk to Kim because of 71 00:05:08,485 --> 00:05:11,605 Speaker 1: things that had happened in the past. Kim had believed 72 00:05:11,685 --> 00:05:15,805 Speaker 1: Virginia for a long time. Kim told the newspaper Tom 73 00:05:16,005 --> 00:05:19,045 Speaker 1: was not a perfect man. It seemed like Tom had 74 00:05:19,085 --> 00:05:22,765 Speaker 1: had a pretty rough childhood. She said that her own 75 00:05:22,845 --> 00:05:26,925 Speaker 1: childhood had involved physical and verbal abuse at times from 76 00:05:26,925 --> 00:05:32,525 Speaker 1: her father. Thomas was originally from Maryland. He married Kim's 77 00:05:32,525 --> 00:05:35,725 Speaker 1: mom his first wife, when he was young. They were 78 00:05:35,765 --> 00:05:39,485 Speaker 1: married for twenty years. He worked several different jobs, so 79 00:05:39,725 --> 00:05:43,125 Speaker 1: the family moved around the country a lot. They eventually 80 00:05:43,205 --> 00:05:47,005 Speaker 1: settled in Gonzales, Louisiana, for a while he worked as 81 00:05:47,005 --> 00:05:51,245 Speaker 1: a police officer, Then the family moved to Virginia. At 82 00:05:51,285 --> 00:05:54,285 Speaker 1: some point, Thomas was working for the Postal Service and 83 00:05:54,405 --> 00:05:57,765 Speaker 1: on that job, he got injured. After that, he was 84 00:05:57,845 --> 00:06:02,685 Speaker 1: eligible to receive Social Security disability. By the mid nineties, 85 00:06:03,165 --> 00:06:06,205 Speaker 1: Thomas had divorced his first wife after twenty five of marriage, 86 00:06:06,525 --> 00:06:09,365 Speaker 1: and he was ready to date again. So he got 87 00:06:09,405 --> 00:06:12,885 Speaker 1: a friend to help him get online and try chatting 88 00:06:12,925 --> 00:06:17,525 Speaker 1: to women. That's how he met Virginia Fogel. They ended 89 00:06:17,565 --> 00:06:20,685 Speaker 1: up meeting in real life and they started dating. Thomas 90 00:06:20,685 --> 00:06:24,365 Speaker 1: and Virginia married in nineteen ninety eight. Now this part 91 00:06:24,405 --> 00:06:28,285 Speaker 1: is interesting because multiple media sources say neither of their 92 00:06:28,325 --> 00:06:33,325 Speaker 1: families neither Thomas's or Virginia's knew about the wedding until afterwards, which, 93 00:06:33,845 --> 00:06:38,845 Speaker 1: let's be honest, is never a great sign. Kim told 94 00:06:38,885 --> 00:06:41,725 Speaker 1: the newspaper she didn't like her stepmom. She did not 95 00:06:41,925 --> 00:06:45,085 Speaker 1: trust Virginia. She was suspicious of her pretty much from 96 00:06:45,085 --> 00:06:48,005 Speaker 1: the start. She felt that she was kind of insincere. 97 00:06:48,885 --> 00:06:51,525 Speaker 1: I know this is something I've said before many times, 98 00:06:51,885 --> 00:06:54,245 Speaker 1: but it is very difficult to be in that position, 99 00:06:54,685 --> 00:06:57,365 Speaker 1: the position of being suspicious of someone that a family 100 00:06:57,405 --> 00:07:01,885 Speaker 1: member is dating, because sometimes in those situations when you 101 00:07:01,965 --> 00:07:04,565 Speaker 1: try to warn the family member, people do tend to 102 00:07:04,605 --> 00:07:07,405 Speaker 1: shoot the messenger. I've been there myself, and it could 103 00:07:07,445 --> 00:07:10,085 Speaker 1: be really difficult to walk that fine line between telling 104 00:07:10,125 --> 00:07:13,005 Speaker 1: someone the truth, telling them the information you feel they 105 00:07:13,005 --> 00:07:17,245 Speaker 1: should know, and not alienating them. I don't really have 106 00:07:17,445 --> 00:07:20,165 Speaker 1: any great advice to give about these situations, by the way, 107 00:07:20,605 --> 00:07:22,925 Speaker 1: I just want to let people out there know it 108 00:07:22,965 --> 00:07:27,405 Speaker 1: does happen, and actually I've been there myself. Virginia was 109 00:07:27,405 --> 00:07:30,685 Speaker 1: born in nineteen fifty one. It seemed like from what 110 00:07:30,725 --> 00:07:34,485 Speaker 1: The York Daily Record said, her own family said that 111 00:07:34,565 --> 00:07:37,805 Speaker 1: she was kind of a pathological liar growing up. Her 112 00:07:37,925 --> 00:07:41,365 Speaker 1: children said they never really knew their mom. They never 113 00:07:41,405 --> 00:07:44,485 Speaker 1: really knew what was going on. Virginia had some weird 114 00:07:44,525 --> 00:07:48,485 Speaker 1: stories about her background. For example, she said her biological 115 00:07:48,565 --> 00:07:52,325 Speaker 1: mother traded her to someone else. Another couple things like that. 116 00:07:53,165 --> 00:07:55,725 Speaker 1: The children basically never knew what was true and what 117 00:07:55,885 --> 00:07:59,645 Speaker 1: wasn't true, which meant that when Virginia did tell crazy stories, 118 00:08:00,205 --> 00:08:02,965 Speaker 1: even if sometimes they were true, people tended not to 119 00:08:03,005 --> 00:08:08,525 Speaker 1: believe her. This will become important later. Long story short, 120 00:08:09,325 --> 00:08:13,045 Speaker 1: Virginia's own children did not know much about her, or 121 00:08:13,165 --> 00:08:16,645 Speaker 1: about really their own family background. A lot of it 122 00:08:16,725 --> 00:08:21,885 Speaker 1: was a mystery. After Thomas disappeared, Kim, his daughter, and 123 00:08:22,005 --> 00:08:25,005 Speaker 1: the rest of her family found out something else. They 124 00:08:25,085 --> 00:08:28,645 Speaker 1: found out that their dad was not Virginia's first husband, 125 00:08:29,285 --> 00:08:32,205 Speaker 1: or even her second husband, like many of them had assumed. 126 00:08:32,965 --> 00:08:37,965 Speaker 1: Thomas was Virginia's third husband. Virginia had been married twice before, 127 00:08:38,045 --> 00:08:44,325 Speaker 1: and both of her husbands had died very suddenly. Virginia's 128 00:08:44,365 --> 00:08:47,485 Speaker 1: first husband, I say first, but with the caveat that 129 00:08:47,525 --> 00:08:50,845 Speaker 1: it's the first that we know about. Knowing her proclivities, 130 00:08:51,245 --> 00:08:55,445 Speaker 1: I would question everything as far as we know. Virginia's 131 00:08:55,485 --> 00:08:58,765 Speaker 1: first husband was a man named Edward Claba. He was 132 00:08:58,805 --> 00:09:02,805 Speaker 1: a janitor at Sykesville Middle School in Maryland. Virginia and 133 00:09:02,885 --> 00:09:06,005 Speaker 1: Edward were super young when they got together. When they married, 134 00:09:06,085 --> 00:09:09,565 Speaker 1: Virginia was still high school age. They divorced in nineteen 135 00:09:09,605 --> 00:09:13,485 Speaker 1: seventy three. Virginia's daughter Carolyn told The York Daily Record 136 00:09:13,485 --> 00:09:16,845 Speaker 1: they split up because Virginia was having an affair, and 137 00:09:16,885 --> 00:09:21,645 Speaker 1: then tragedy struck. Virginia's ex husband was found hanging in 138 00:09:21,685 --> 00:09:24,645 Speaker 1: the school gym on November twenty first, nineteen seventy four, 139 00:09:25,245 --> 00:09:28,165 Speaker 1: less than a year after they were divorced. It was 140 00:09:28,205 --> 00:09:32,205 Speaker 1: determined that he had taken his own life. Virginia then 141 00:09:32,325 --> 00:09:36,005 Speaker 1: married her second husband, Floyd Fogel, shortly after that, also 142 00:09:36,045 --> 00:09:39,725 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four, Virginia was about twenty three. By then, 143 00:09:40,205 --> 00:09:43,925 Speaker 1: Floyd was a lot older, and they had a little 144 00:09:43,925 --> 00:09:47,285 Speaker 1: bit of a scandal to start with. Apparently, Virginia was 145 00:09:47,325 --> 00:09:50,205 Speaker 1: the babysitter for Floyd Fogel. They started to have a 146 00:09:50,245 --> 00:09:54,125 Speaker 1: sexual affair, she got pregnant, and eventually they got married. 147 00:09:55,085 --> 00:09:58,605 Speaker 1: They had a daughter together named Connie. Virginia was very 148 00:09:58,605 --> 00:10:01,925 Speaker 1: close to Connie, and Virginia and Floyd were married for 149 00:10:01,965 --> 00:10:05,845 Speaker 1: about sixteen years until nineteen ninety that's when Floyd died 150 00:10:05,845 --> 00:10:09,085 Speaker 1: of a massive heart attack. That would mean when Floyd died, 151 00:10:09,205 --> 00:10:13,485 Speaker 1: Virginia was thirty nine, still young and looking for love again. 152 00:10:14,525 --> 00:10:17,565 Speaker 1: As we said before, she married Thomas eight years later 153 00:10:17,645 --> 00:10:21,085 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight. She was forty seven. Thomas was 154 00:10:21,125 --> 00:10:25,525 Speaker 1: five years younger. Virginia and Thomas sold their properties. They 155 00:10:25,605 --> 00:10:28,005 Speaker 1: bought an RV together, and it was hard for his 156 00:10:28,165 --> 00:10:31,525 Speaker 1: family to keep track of him because Virginia and Thomas 157 00:10:31,645 --> 00:10:35,405 Speaker 1: crossed the country. They moved around a lot. Again, in 158 00:10:35,445 --> 00:10:40,045 Speaker 1: these cases, the family dynamic can be very tricky. Some 159 00:10:40,205 --> 00:10:43,005 Speaker 1: family members had their own issues with Thomas, and they 160 00:10:43,045 --> 00:10:45,805 Speaker 1: didn't realize that the rest of the family was not 161 00:10:45,885 --> 00:10:50,045 Speaker 1: able to locate him. The last time that Kim spoke 162 00:10:50,085 --> 00:10:53,205 Speaker 1: to her father was in two thousand and five, and 163 00:10:53,245 --> 00:10:55,805 Speaker 1: then for the next couple of years, as we said before, 164 00:10:56,485 --> 00:10:59,045 Speaker 1: she didn't speak to him at all. She would call, 165 00:10:59,205 --> 00:11:02,245 Speaker 1: Virginia would answer, and Virginia would always have an excuse 166 00:11:02,365 --> 00:11:05,485 Speaker 1: for why Thomas couldn't come to the phone. Kim blamed 167 00:11:05,605 --> 00:11:08,485 Speaker 1: herself since she had had a minor argument with her 168 00:11:08,565 --> 00:11:11,325 Speaker 1: dad the last time they spoke. It seems like Virginia 169 00:11:11,445 --> 00:11:13,485 Speaker 1: kind of used that as a reason why her dad 170 00:11:13,525 --> 00:11:17,325 Speaker 1: apparently didn't want to talk to her. Kim got frustrated 171 00:11:17,325 --> 00:11:20,605 Speaker 1: with this. She started asking Virginia basically for proof of life. 172 00:11:21,125 --> 00:11:24,205 Speaker 1: She wanted Virginia to send her a photo of her father. 173 00:11:24,885 --> 00:11:26,805 Speaker 1: She said she wanted this even if he wasn't up 174 00:11:26,845 --> 00:11:28,925 Speaker 1: to talking to her. She wanted to know he was okay, 175 00:11:28,965 --> 00:11:33,525 Speaker 1: but Virginia refused. Then Virginia told her Thomas didn't want 176 00:11:33,525 --> 00:11:35,725 Speaker 1: to have anything to do with her at all. She 177 00:11:35,805 --> 00:11:39,405 Speaker 1: said Thomas had called Kim a greedy little bitch. This 178 00:11:39,525 --> 00:11:42,285 Speaker 1: blew Kim away because she had never known her father 179 00:11:42,365 --> 00:11:46,045 Speaker 1: to talk about her like that. Later, Virginia told her 180 00:11:46,125 --> 00:11:48,765 Speaker 1: her father hated her, hated the rest of the family, 181 00:11:48,805 --> 00:11:51,885 Speaker 1: and didn't want to see any of them. Kim was 182 00:11:51,965 --> 00:11:55,165 Speaker 1: growing more and more concerned. She wanted to know what 183 00:11:55,245 --> 00:11:58,365 Speaker 1: happened to her father, and Kim started to figure out 184 00:11:58,445 --> 00:12:01,725 Speaker 1: it wasn't just her. Her brothers had not talked to 185 00:12:01,765 --> 00:12:06,285 Speaker 1: her dad either. Then Thomas's brother passed away and twenty fourteen, 186 00:12:07,125 --> 00:12:10,565 Speaker 1: Thomas did not even come to the funeral. After that, 187 00:12:10,765 --> 00:12:14,765 Speaker 1: pretty much the whole family knew that something was very wrong. 188 00:12:18,805 --> 00:12:22,045 Speaker 1: So then one day Kim told the newspaper she got 189 00:12:22,125 --> 00:12:25,285 Speaker 1: a call out of the blue. It was Carolyn, one 190 00:12:25,285 --> 00:12:28,925 Speaker 1: of Virginia's other daughters. Carolyn asked Kim if she had 191 00:12:28,925 --> 00:12:32,285 Speaker 1: talked to Thomas recently. Kim said no, and Carolyn said 192 00:12:32,445 --> 00:12:35,365 Speaker 1: she was worried about Thomas, who was her stepfather. She 193 00:12:35,445 --> 00:12:37,445 Speaker 1: said she had not spoken to him since the fall 194 00:12:37,485 --> 00:12:41,605 Speaker 1: of twenty eleven. She had been close to Thomas. Carolyn 195 00:12:41,685 --> 00:12:44,365 Speaker 1: said she was surprised that her stepfather never showed up 196 00:12:44,365 --> 00:12:47,365 Speaker 1: to her Christmas party that year, and then she never 197 00:12:47,405 --> 00:12:51,245 Speaker 1: saw him again. So now Kim has gone from being 198 00:12:51,245 --> 00:12:54,525 Speaker 1: concerned about her dad to having the terrifying feeling that 199 00:12:54,565 --> 00:12:59,085 Speaker 1: her dad was gone and never coming back. What happened 200 00:12:59,085 --> 00:13:02,045 Speaker 1: to Thomas? How could he just disappear so suddenly? And 201 00:13:02,085 --> 00:13:05,805 Speaker 1: how did Virginia explain that to everyone? It turned out 202 00:13:05,845 --> 00:13:08,525 Speaker 1: that it depended on who you asked. She told some 203 00:13:08,565 --> 00:13:11,005 Speaker 1: people that Thomas was in Mexico taking care of some 204 00:13:11,205 --> 00:13:14,725 Speaker 1: mystery medical condition. She told other people that he had als. 205 00:13:15,845 --> 00:13:19,565 Speaker 1: When Carolyn asked her mother about Thomas, Virginia said Thomas 206 00:13:19,605 --> 00:13:21,525 Speaker 1: was gone, but that he left a note for Carolyn. 207 00:13:22,485 --> 00:13:25,405 Speaker 1: Carolyn looked at the note that Thomas had supposedly left behind, 208 00:13:25,445 --> 00:13:28,045 Speaker 1: and she noticed it didn't seem to make a lot 209 00:13:28,085 --> 00:13:31,645 Speaker 1: of sense. First of all, it started out Dearest Carolyn, 210 00:13:31,925 --> 00:13:34,725 Speaker 1: which Carolyn said was not the way that Thomas talked. 211 00:13:35,285 --> 00:13:39,845 Speaker 1: It felt very unnatural. The language was way too flowery, 212 00:13:40,445 --> 00:13:42,725 Speaker 1: and the letters said that he was never coming back. 213 00:13:43,525 --> 00:13:46,045 Speaker 1: So she was probably asking herself if that was how 214 00:13:46,045 --> 00:13:48,045 Speaker 1: he felt, why he didn't just tell her, or at 215 00:13:48,125 --> 00:13:50,325 Speaker 1: least text her or call her and tell her that 216 00:13:51,085 --> 00:13:54,605 Speaker 1: she knew something was up. So that's when Carolyn called Kim. 217 00:13:55,285 --> 00:13:58,845 Speaker 1: Carolyn and Kim joined forces. They were determined to figure 218 00:13:58,885 --> 00:14:02,765 Speaker 1: out what really happened to Thomas. In twenty sixteen, Kim 219 00:14:02,845 --> 00:14:06,925 Speaker 1: hired a private investigator, The investigators started surveillance on Virginia. 220 00:14:07,405 --> 00:14:10,165 Speaker 1: By this time, Virginia had moved into her own apartment. 221 00:14:10,925 --> 00:14:14,205 Speaker 1: The PI interviewed neighbors and people who interacted with Virginia 222 00:14:14,245 --> 00:14:17,205 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Even though she was a pretty 223 00:14:17,205 --> 00:14:21,285 Speaker 1: private person, on occasion, she did like to talk about herself. 224 00:14:22,165 --> 00:14:24,725 Speaker 1: When people asked if Thomas was gone and what happened 225 00:14:24,725 --> 00:14:28,925 Speaker 1: to him, she told them that Thomas was in Mexico. Again. 226 00:14:29,205 --> 00:14:31,685 Speaker 1: She told some people that he had als or lou 227 00:14:31,765 --> 00:14:36,525 Speaker 1: Garry's disease. Apparently, she also told some people that Thomas 228 00:14:36,605 --> 00:14:41,085 Speaker 1: was dead or some combination of those three excuses. None 229 00:14:41,125 --> 00:14:43,485 Speaker 1: of the stories matched, but no one figured that out 230 00:14:43,525 --> 00:14:48,685 Speaker 1: for a long time. The PI told Kim that Virginia 231 00:14:48,765 --> 00:14:51,965 Speaker 1: was telling people that Thomas had left her suddenly sometime 232 00:14:51,965 --> 00:14:57,045 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven. On January twenty first, twenty seventeen, Kim 233 00:14:57,165 --> 00:15:00,045 Speaker 1: called the Pennsylvania State Police to perform a welfare check 234 00:15:00,085 --> 00:15:02,645 Speaker 1: on her father. They went to the apartment and talked 235 00:15:02,645 --> 00:15:05,805 Speaker 1: to Virginia. She told them that her husband had left 236 00:15:05,805 --> 00:15:08,365 Speaker 1: her in twenty eleven. She said he had gone to 237 00:15:08,365 --> 00:15:11,645 Speaker 1: get medical treatment in Mexico and that he never came back. 238 00:15:12,645 --> 00:15:15,165 Speaker 1: They asked her well, how did he leave the house 239 00:15:15,205 --> 00:15:18,285 Speaker 1: without a vehicle. She said that his brother, Spencer, had 240 00:15:18,285 --> 00:15:22,005 Speaker 1: picked him up. But police found Spencer, they talked to him, 241 00:15:22,245 --> 00:15:25,245 Speaker 1: he said this was absolutely not true. He never picked 242 00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:27,965 Speaker 1: his brother up. He never took him to Mexico or 243 00:15:27,965 --> 00:15:32,525 Speaker 1: anywhere else. Police were obviously very suspicious, but they needed 244 00:15:32,525 --> 00:15:36,125 Speaker 1: more evidence. Now, I do want to call out the 245 00:15:36,405 --> 00:15:39,885 Speaker 1: really good work of the police department, because in so 246 00:15:40,005 --> 00:15:43,525 Speaker 1: many of these cases, people call me literally almost every 247 00:15:43,565 --> 00:15:46,685 Speaker 1: week with a story about how a family member has 248 00:15:46,685 --> 00:15:51,485 Speaker 1: disappeared unexpectedly. They believe someone's lying about it, but often 249 00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:55,765 Speaker 1: police do not investigate further. In this case, the police did. 250 00:15:56,205 --> 00:15:58,485 Speaker 1: They really took the time to build a case and 251 00:15:58,525 --> 00:16:01,685 Speaker 1: put the pieces together. They followed the paper trail on 252 00:16:01,725 --> 00:16:05,405 Speaker 1: the house. They found out that on November fourth, twenty thirteen, 253 00:16:06,165 --> 00:16:09,125 Speaker 1: Thomas Hayden had sold his share of the condo he 254 00:16:09,205 --> 00:16:13,525 Speaker 1: owned to his wife for one dollar. That transaction happens 255 00:16:13,525 --> 00:16:17,125 Speaker 1: a lot between husbands and wives, so that part is 256 00:16:17,245 --> 00:16:19,725 Speaker 1: not necessarily a red flag. But the next part to 257 00:16:19,925 --> 00:16:23,605 Speaker 1: police absolutely was. Because they looked at the person who 258 00:16:23,645 --> 00:16:28,165 Speaker 1: would notarized this transaction. They found out this signature was 259 00:16:28,245 --> 00:16:34,365 Speaker 1: Connie Pender Virginia's daughter. Police later pulled in a handwriting expert. 260 00:16:35,125 --> 00:16:38,605 Speaker 1: The expert's opinion was that Virginia Hayden had signed Thomas's 261 00:16:38,645 --> 00:16:41,845 Speaker 1: name to that document, according to the criminal complaint. The 262 00:16:41,925 --> 00:16:46,165 Speaker 1: next year, Virginia sold the condominium to someone else. The 263 00:16:46,205 --> 00:16:49,845 Speaker 1: buyer paid one hundred and thirty five thousand dollars. Police 264 00:16:49,885 --> 00:16:52,445 Speaker 1: tracked down the guy who had bought the condominium from Virginia. 265 00:16:53,165 --> 00:16:56,125 Speaker 1: He said when he bought the place, he bought it 266 00:16:56,165 --> 00:16:59,005 Speaker 1: basically as is. He said a bunch of furniture and 267 00:16:59,045 --> 00:17:02,245 Speaker 1: other stuff was included as part of the sale, but 268 00:17:02,485 --> 00:17:04,925 Speaker 1: he said he noticed that when he moved in, a 269 00:17:04,965 --> 00:17:09,125 Speaker 1: couple of tho items were missing, including a queen size 270 00:17:09,165 --> 00:17:12,565 Speaker 1: bed and a large rubber mat that had been in 271 00:17:12,605 --> 00:17:17,325 Speaker 1: the garage on the floor. They asked him if Virginia 272 00:17:17,325 --> 00:17:20,685 Speaker 1: had mentioned her husband. The buyer said Virginia told him 273 00:17:20,765 --> 00:17:24,725 Speaker 1: her husband was dead. But when police asked Virginia about this, 274 00:17:24,765 --> 00:17:28,125 Speaker 1: about these conflicting stories, she always had an excuse, and 275 00:17:28,205 --> 00:17:31,245 Speaker 1: by now she was telling everybody Thomas had been abusive. 276 00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:34,765 Speaker 1: She said Thomas had been so abusive to her that 277 00:17:34,805 --> 00:17:36,365 Speaker 1: he was dead to her, and that's why she was 278 00:17:36,405 --> 00:17:40,365 Speaker 1: telling people he was dead. So after Kim made the 279 00:17:40,405 --> 00:17:44,125 Speaker 1: missing person's report and the welfare check happened, the information 280 00:17:44,325 --> 00:17:47,845 Speaker 1: was shared with the Northern York County Regional Police, and 281 00:17:47,885 --> 00:17:52,045 Speaker 1: a detective there remembered the food Saber case. They pulled 282 00:17:52,125 --> 00:17:55,605 Speaker 1: up Thomas's driver's license. When they saw him, and they 283 00:17:55,605 --> 00:17:59,125 Speaker 1: saw his long gray hair, they wondered if he might 284 00:17:59,325 --> 00:18:03,045 Speaker 1: be the person they'd been trying to id from that case. 285 00:18:03,885 --> 00:18:08,325 Speaker 1: Forensic testing indicated that Thomas's DNA was a match to 286 00:18:08,445 --> 00:18:11,805 Speaker 1: the scalp they found in the food Saver bag. Those 287 00:18:11,885 --> 00:18:16,325 Speaker 1: remains had been sitting there for six years. Finally, Thomas's 288 00:18:16,365 --> 00:18:21,805 Speaker 1: family knew what happened to him. Detectives believed they knew 289 00:18:21,805 --> 00:18:26,045 Speaker 1: what happened to Thomas too. They absolutely believed Virginia had 290 00:18:26,125 --> 00:18:30,045 Speaker 1: killed him. Detectives had a lot of circumstantial evidence here. 291 00:18:30,485 --> 00:18:33,245 Speaker 1: They also have stories that don't match, and, as we 292 00:18:33,285 --> 00:18:36,525 Speaker 1: have seen on so many cases, stories that don't match 293 00:18:36,565 --> 00:18:41,245 Speaker 1: our huge potential red flags. But Virginia was a good liar. 294 00:18:41,685 --> 00:18:43,765 Speaker 1: She had an excuse for that. She said she made 295 00:18:43,805 --> 00:18:46,005 Speaker 1: stories up because she was embarrassed about the fact that 296 00:18:46,045 --> 00:18:48,765 Speaker 1: Thomas left her. She told other people that he had 297 00:18:48,805 --> 00:18:52,485 Speaker 1: been so abusive. She was trying to forget so even 298 00:18:52,525 --> 00:18:55,365 Speaker 1: though they caught her in lies, it was difficult to 299 00:18:55,445 --> 00:19:00,845 Speaker 1: prove they still didn't have a body. In July twenty seventeen, 300 00:19:01,045 --> 00:19:06,005 Speaker 1: police interviewed Virginia. She told them a bunch of different stories. First, 301 00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:08,805 Speaker 1: she said she was embarrassed about Thomas leaving her. That's 302 00:19:08,845 --> 00:19:12,125 Speaker 1: why she said that he went to Mexico. Then suddenly 303 00:19:12,165 --> 00:19:15,405 Speaker 1: she said she actually had seen Thomas since he disappeared. 304 00:19:16,165 --> 00:19:18,565 Speaker 1: She said she saw him in Puerto Rico while she 305 00:19:18,645 --> 00:19:22,325 Speaker 1: was visiting there in twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen. She 306 00:19:22,405 --> 00:19:25,605 Speaker 1: said Thomas was abusive. He was physically abusive. She was 307 00:19:25,725 --> 00:19:28,845 Speaker 1: terrified of him. She said that's why she hadn't said anything, 308 00:19:28,925 --> 00:19:31,925 Speaker 1: because she had been so scared when she saw him again. 309 00:19:32,685 --> 00:19:34,725 Speaker 1: Police knew by this point she was full of it. 310 00:19:35,085 --> 00:19:39,285 Speaker 1: There was no evidence that Thomas was ever abusive to her. Finally, 311 00:19:39,885 --> 00:19:43,645 Speaker 1: they took a picture of the scalp in the plastic 312 00:19:43,685 --> 00:19:46,885 Speaker 1: bag and they showed it to her, But detectives noted 313 00:19:46,965 --> 00:19:49,165 Speaker 1: she didn't really have any reaction to that. In fact, 314 00:19:49,685 --> 00:19:52,085 Speaker 1: she didn't have much of a reaction to anything. She 315 00:19:52,165 --> 00:19:56,485 Speaker 1: seemed totally emotionally flat. So while all this is going on, 316 00:19:56,725 --> 00:19:59,045 Speaker 1: police are trying to find people who can shed some 317 00:19:59,245 --> 00:20:03,085 Speaker 1: light on Virginia's real character. They did find one person 318 00:20:03,085 --> 00:20:07,005 Speaker 1: who she was close to, her grandson, Mike Harris. Police 319 00:20:07,045 --> 00:20:09,925 Speaker 1: talked to Michael and he said he and his grandma 320 00:20:09,965 --> 00:20:12,245 Speaker 1: would joke all the time about the best ways to 321 00:20:12,245 --> 00:20:15,405 Speaker 1: get rid of a body. He said that Virginia used 322 00:20:15,445 --> 00:20:18,965 Speaker 1: to joke about how feeding a body to pigs with 323 00:20:19,005 --> 00:20:23,565 Speaker 1: the perfect disposal method, because apparently pigs would eat everything 324 00:20:24,765 --> 00:20:29,965 Speaker 1: except the hair and not leave behind any traces. Her 325 00:20:30,005 --> 00:20:33,165 Speaker 1: grandson said they would watch true crime shows together. He 326 00:20:33,205 --> 00:20:36,805 Speaker 1: described her as cool. He said she also told him 327 00:20:37,085 --> 00:20:38,965 Speaker 1: if you wanted to get rid of a body in 328 00:20:39,045 --> 00:20:41,885 Speaker 1: a body of water, you had to stab it multiple 329 00:20:41,925 --> 00:20:45,085 Speaker 1: times to make sure that it would sink. Side note. 330 00:20:45,205 --> 00:20:47,845 Speaker 1: This part was especially freaky to me and I'm sure 331 00:20:47,885 --> 00:20:51,205 Speaker 1: to many true crime fans because real talk. I make 332 00:20:51,245 --> 00:20:53,565 Speaker 1: these kind of jokes all the time. My mom and 333 00:20:53,605 --> 00:20:56,525 Speaker 1: I watch true crime shows together. It's always been our thing. 334 00:20:56,965 --> 00:21:00,685 Speaker 1: So the idea that someone would joke about this not 335 00:21:00,845 --> 00:21:03,445 Speaker 1: because the humor deflects some of the dark thoughts or 336 00:21:03,485 --> 00:21:06,285 Speaker 1: the horror of what is happening, but because she did 337 00:21:06,325 --> 00:21:11,605 Speaker 1: this for real is absolutely terrifying. It's like Patrick Bateman 338 00:21:11,645 --> 00:21:16,005 Speaker 1: from American Psycho in the body of this innocent looking grandma. 339 00:21:16,285 --> 00:21:19,165 Speaker 1: Police tried to figure out if Virginia had had a 340 00:21:19,165 --> 00:21:22,485 Speaker 1: grain of truth in those comments. They did find out 341 00:21:22,525 --> 00:21:26,165 Speaker 1: that shortly after Thomas vanished, Virginia did some housework. She 342 00:21:26,205 --> 00:21:30,165 Speaker 1: did some home improvements. One of those was pouring down 343 00:21:30,205 --> 00:21:34,045 Speaker 1: some concrete for a new patio in the backyard. This 344 00:21:34,125 --> 00:21:36,725 Speaker 1: is crazy and dark as well. She and her son 345 00:21:36,765 --> 00:21:40,005 Speaker 1: in law Michael, actually joked about that patio. She made 346 00:21:40,045 --> 00:21:42,565 Speaker 1: a comment about how there could be a body down there. 347 00:21:42,605 --> 00:21:45,645 Speaker 1: They could be hiding a body. Police searched that area 348 00:21:45,725 --> 00:21:49,125 Speaker 1: with ground penetrating radar and dogs, but in the end 349 00:21:49,245 --> 00:21:54,485 Speaker 1: they found nothing. Luckily, according to police, Virginia did something 350 00:21:54,645 --> 00:21:58,085 Speaker 1: that helped them. This always amazes me when this happens, 351 00:21:58,085 --> 00:22:00,765 Speaker 1: but it happens a lot. There are a lot of 352 00:22:00,885 --> 00:22:03,205 Speaker 1: narcissistic people in the world, and a lot of people 353 00:22:03,205 --> 00:22:06,525 Speaker 1: who are narcissistic and who lie. It's like, even when 354 00:22:06,565 --> 00:22:09,365 Speaker 1: they should be quiet, they keep talking. I think it's 355 00:22:09,365 --> 00:22:12,845 Speaker 1: because they're so convinced they can lie convincingly. They've been 356 00:22:12,885 --> 00:22:15,765 Speaker 1: able to deceive so many people for so long that 357 00:22:16,285 --> 00:22:18,605 Speaker 1: they just think that they're going to continue their story 358 00:22:18,645 --> 00:22:21,885 Speaker 1: is going to be believable. They can't see how ridiculous 359 00:22:21,925 --> 00:22:24,805 Speaker 1: their own story is. If you're lucky, they will keep 360 00:22:24,845 --> 00:22:28,725 Speaker 1: talking and sometimes they will shoot themselves in the foot. 361 00:22:28,965 --> 00:22:32,085 Speaker 1: And that seems to be kind of what happened here. Remember, 362 00:22:32,125 --> 00:22:35,285 Speaker 1: the detectives were following the money they found out about 363 00:22:35,325 --> 00:22:39,645 Speaker 1: the condo, and then because remember Thomas was receiving Social 364 00:22:39,645 --> 00:22:43,765 Speaker 1: Security payments, they found over one hundred and sixteen thousand 365 00:22:43,805 --> 00:22:47,365 Speaker 1: dollars had been deposited in the joint account Thomas shared 366 00:22:47,405 --> 00:22:51,405 Speaker 1: with Virginia. Virginia continued to take that money after Thomas 367 00:22:51,525 --> 00:22:55,365 Speaker 1: was gone. Sometimes if investigators can't get someone from murder 368 00:22:55,445 --> 00:22:59,485 Speaker 1: right away, they will start with fraud because the federal 369 00:22:59,525 --> 00:23:04,045 Speaker 1: government will get their money. But the criminal investigation continued. 370 00:23:04,645 --> 00:23:07,805 Speaker 1: They executed US search warrant on Virginia's home. They found 371 00:23:07,805 --> 00:23:09,845 Speaker 1: a lock box with all of Thomas's stuff in it, 372 00:23:09,925 --> 00:23:13,605 Speaker 1: including his driver's license and his passport, which, by the way, 373 00:23:13,645 --> 00:23:15,965 Speaker 1: he would have needed for foreign travel to Mexico or 374 00:23:16,005 --> 00:23:19,645 Speaker 1: anywhere else. It was right there. His Social Security card 375 00:23:19,725 --> 00:23:22,605 Speaker 1: was there. This is something that it seems like he 376 00:23:22,725 --> 00:23:26,565 Speaker 1: never would have left home. Without Also, why, even if 377 00:23:26,605 --> 00:23:29,165 Speaker 1: he was planning on leaving, and especially if he planned 378 00:23:29,165 --> 00:23:32,525 Speaker 1: on getting medical treatment, would he ever stop taking his money. 379 00:23:32,925 --> 00:23:36,965 Speaker 1: That idea is absolutely ridiculous. It makes zero sense. They 380 00:23:37,045 --> 00:23:40,445 Speaker 1: checked records. They found that Thomas's passport had never been used, 381 00:23:41,045 --> 00:23:43,965 Speaker 1: so there was no evidence he ever went to Mexico 382 00:23:44,285 --> 00:23:48,725 Speaker 1: or anywhere outside the US. He also had not accessed 383 00:23:48,885 --> 00:23:53,365 Speaker 1: his bank account or any money since he disappeared. They 384 00:23:53,365 --> 00:23:56,805 Speaker 1: were also checking out other elements of Virginia's story. They 385 00:23:56,845 --> 00:23:59,565 Speaker 1: tried to verify the information that she had given them 386 00:23:59,645 --> 00:24:03,565 Speaker 1: about Thomas's illnesses. They went through his medical records. They 387 00:24:03,605 --> 00:24:06,805 Speaker 1: found no evidence at all of any serious illness or 388 00:24:06,885 --> 00:24:10,405 Speaker 1: terminal illness, no evidence that he ever, at any point 389 00:24:10,445 --> 00:24:14,125 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with als. They did find, though, that Thomas 390 00:24:14,165 --> 00:24:18,485 Speaker 1: regularly saw his doctors. His last doctor's appointment in person 391 00:24:18,965 --> 00:24:22,645 Speaker 1: was on September twenty seventh, twenty eleven. He was supposed 392 00:24:22,645 --> 00:24:25,765 Speaker 1: to see the doctor again on October twenty fifth, but 393 00:24:25,845 --> 00:24:29,525 Speaker 1: Virginia canceled that appointment. She told the doctor her husband 394 00:24:29,525 --> 00:24:35,125 Speaker 1: had left town. They found out that Virginia had bought 395 00:24:35,125 --> 00:24:38,685 Speaker 1: a gun. Records showed that she had bought a three 396 00:24:38,805 --> 00:24:43,005 Speaker 1: fifty seven caliber handgun on October second, twenty eleven. She 397 00:24:43,165 --> 00:24:46,525 Speaker 1: claimed she sold it to a private party. Police never 398 00:24:46,565 --> 00:24:49,365 Speaker 1: got the weapon. They found something else that I thought 399 00:24:49,405 --> 00:24:52,565 Speaker 1: was interesting. They found Virginia's day planner in her house. 400 00:24:53,525 --> 00:24:57,525 Speaker 1: Next to November one, twenty eleven, Virginia wrote Tom had 401 00:24:57,605 --> 00:25:01,565 Speaker 1: left for Mexico. Some investigators wondered if that might have 402 00:25:01,605 --> 00:25:05,365 Speaker 1: been code for something else. And all through this process 403 00:25:05,605 --> 00:25:09,085 Speaker 1: Virginia acted like she didn't care. She was actually very lackadaisical. 404 00:25:09,645 --> 00:25:12,045 Speaker 1: At one point she said she would write whatever they 405 00:25:12,045 --> 00:25:15,645 Speaker 1: wanted her to write. Later, she said she would admit 406 00:25:15,685 --> 00:25:17,925 Speaker 1: to whatever people in her family wanted her to say. 407 00:25:18,765 --> 00:25:22,565 Speaker 1: She sounded like she could not care less. She said, quote, 408 00:25:22,885 --> 00:25:25,965 Speaker 1: I put Thomas Hayden in there, so be happy. I 409 00:25:26,045 --> 00:25:28,845 Speaker 1: give in, so leave me alone. So there it is. 410 00:25:29,205 --> 00:25:34,525 Speaker 1: That's my confession. End quote. PennLive dot Com reported Virginia 411 00:25:34,805 --> 00:25:38,485 Speaker 1: had a food saver vacuum ceiling machine at home, which 412 00:25:38,525 --> 00:25:42,005 Speaker 1: could have explained why the bag was sealed. Even though 413 00:25:42,045 --> 00:25:47,125 Speaker 1: she was outwardly somewhat cooperative, though Virginia continued to taunt investigators. 414 00:25:47,565 --> 00:25:51,525 Speaker 1: In another weird twist, Virginia told police if they wanted 415 00:25:51,525 --> 00:25:54,765 Speaker 1: to find Thomas they should look in her second husband's grave, 416 00:25:55,125 --> 00:25:58,045 Speaker 1: remember he had died of a heart attack. They did, 417 00:25:58,365 --> 00:26:03,085 Speaker 1: but they found nothing there. They charged Virginia in connection 418 00:26:03,285 --> 00:26:06,645 Speaker 1: with Thomas's death. They also charged her with sixty four 419 00:26:06,725 --> 00:26:12,205 Speaker 1: additional counts, including forgery, conspiracy, theft, receiving stolen property, and 420 00:26:12,245 --> 00:26:17,565 Speaker 1: tampering with public records. This was related to her allegedly 421 00:26:17,645 --> 00:26:23,325 Speaker 1: forging Thomas's signature on that property transfer and to her 422 00:26:23,485 --> 00:26:26,885 Speaker 1: stealing the almost one hundred and seventeen thousand dollars of 423 00:26:26,965 --> 00:26:32,085 Speaker 1: Social Security payments. They were able to prove Virginia's daughter, Connie, 424 00:26:32,285 --> 00:26:35,525 Speaker 1: had been in on this. In twenty seventeen, they charged 425 00:26:35,565 --> 00:26:38,125 Speaker 1: Connie with two counts of tampering with public records and 426 00:26:38,165 --> 00:26:42,045 Speaker 1: two counts of conspiracy. Still, though they had no body, 427 00:26:43,445 --> 00:26:46,245 Speaker 1: they needed to figure out how Thomas had been killed. 428 00:26:46,765 --> 00:26:49,725 Speaker 1: They needed to piece together a story for the potential jury. 429 00:26:50,685 --> 00:26:54,405 Speaker 1: They interviewed a forensic pathologist, doctor Wayne k Ross. The 430 00:26:54,445 --> 00:26:58,845 Speaker 1: pathologist examined that food saver bag. They found there were 431 00:26:58,925 --> 00:27:03,805 Speaker 1: tiny sprays of blood there, so the pathologists concluded Thomas 432 00:27:03,845 --> 00:27:08,045 Speaker 1: probably had been killed by gunshop. There were bone fragments 433 00:27:08,045 --> 00:27:10,525 Speaker 1: in the bag that were also characteristic of gunshot wounds, 434 00:27:10,925 --> 00:27:13,725 Speaker 1: there were traces of lead in one of the bone fragments. 435 00:27:13,765 --> 00:27:16,045 Speaker 1: All of this pointed to being shot in the head. 436 00:27:17,205 --> 00:27:21,005 Speaker 1: Police believed that Virginia probably went up to Thomas while 437 00:27:21,045 --> 00:27:24,045 Speaker 1: he was lying in bed, maybe even asleep, and killed him. 438 00:27:25,765 --> 00:27:29,285 Speaker 1: Doctor Wayne k Ross said during a hearing, quote, the 439 00:27:29,325 --> 00:27:33,125 Speaker 1: task of dismemberment supports the conclusion that Thomas Hayden died 440 00:27:33,165 --> 00:27:36,565 Speaker 1: of violent death at the hands of another individual. End quote, 441 00:27:37,845 --> 00:27:41,485 Speaker 1: and this part is horrifying. The pathologists could not say 442 00:27:41,525 --> 00:27:44,725 Speaker 1: for sure whether Thomas was dead or alive when he 443 00:27:44,765 --> 00:27:49,085 Speaker 1: was scalped, but they pointed out if Thomas was alive, 444 00:27:49,645 --> 00:27:51,965 Speaker 1: that would have been a fatal wound and he would 445 00:27:51,965 --> 00:27:56,485 Speaker 1: have died shortly afterward. The pathologists believed that after Thomas 446 00:27:56,605 --> 00:28:00,605 Speaker 1: was dead, his killer had dissolved the body in some 447 00:28:00,685 --> 00:28:04,445 Speaker 1: kind of caustic substance, and that the only thing left 448 00:28:04,925 --> 00:28:09,365 Speaker 1: was what invests stigators found in that bag. On April eighteenth, 449 00:28:09,405 --> 00:28:13,685 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Virginia was arrested and charged with Thomas's murder. 450 00:28:14,485 --> 00:28:16,965 Speaker 1: She was ready to go to trial in twenty twenty two, 451 00:28:17,845 --> 00:28:21,565 Speaker 1: but hours before the trial was supposed to start, Thomas's 452 00:28:21,645 --> 00:28:25,805 Speaker 1: family got word Virginia took a plea deal. Originally she 453 00:28:25,885 --> 00:28:28,565 Speaker 1: was being charged with first degree murder. She ended up 454 00:28:28,565 --> 00:28:31,965 Speaker 1: pleading guilty to third degree murder. Her sentence was six 455 00:28:32,005 --> 00:28:34,805 Speaker 1: to twenty years in prison. Now, there were some mixed 456 00:28:34,845 --> 00:28:38,205 Speaker 1: opinions about this plea deal. I can see both sides. 457 00:28:38,245 --> 00:28:41,365 Speaker 1: On the one hand, some people were totally outraged. They 458 00:28:41,365 --> 00:28:44,285 Speaker 1: felt like this woman clearly murdered Thomas in a brutal 459 00:28:44,325 --> 00:28:48,285 Speaker 1: way and covered it up for years. I can see 460 00:28:48,325 --> 00:28:50,725 Speaker 1: that outrage, but I can also see the prosecutor's point 461 00:28:50,725 --> 00:28:54,005 Speaker 1: of view. You have a situation where there's limited forensic 462 00:28:54,045 --> 00:28:59,965 Speaker 1: evidence tying Virginia to Thomas. Also, I really don't want 463 00:28:59,965 --> 00:29:02,805 Speaker 1: to overlook the fact the prosecutors were probably thinking about 464 00:29:02,805 --> 00:29:05,005 Speaker 1: the fact that Virginia was going to show up in 465 00:29:05,045 --> 00:29:09,285 Speaker 1: court looking like everyone's grandma. All it would take was 466 00:29:09,325 --> 00:29:12,365 Speaker 1: one juror to believe her story or even have questions 467 00:29:12,365 --> 00:29:15,765 Speaker 1: about her guilt for Virginia to get an acquittle. The 468 00:29:15,845 --> 00:29:19,125 Speaker 1: prosecution probably did not want to take that chance. They 469 00:29:19,205 --> 00:29:21,645 Speaker 1: knew this woman is a liar. Over the years, she's 470 00:29:21,685 --> 00:29:25,245 Speaker 1: gotten away with murder, and some people believe she might 471 00:29:25,285 --> 00:29:28,525 Speaker 1: have gotten away with it, possibly more than once. I'm 472 00:29:28,525 --> 00:29:30,205 Speaker 1: going to go back to something here. We were talking 473 00:29:30,245 --> 00:29:33,405 Speaker 1: about Virginia's grandson, Michael, some of the things that he said, 474 00:29:33,445 --> 00:29:34,565 Speaker 1: some of the comments. 475 00:29:34,205 --> 00:29:35,605 Speaker 2: That she made. 476 00:29:35,805 --> 00:29:38,525 Speaker 1: Michael said Virginia would joke about how you could give 477 00:29:38,565 --> 00:29:42,285 Speaker 1: someone an overdose and make it look like a heart attack. Now, 478 00:29:42,565 --> 00:29:45,645 Speaker 1: Virginia's second husband did die of a heart attack. She 479 00:29:45,805 --> 00:29:49,045 Speaker 1: made comments about looking in his grave. Maybe these were 480 00:29:49,165 --> 00:29:52,685 Speaker 1: just jokes, maybe there was nothing to it, but I'm 481 00:29:52,685 --> 00:29:55,165 Speaker 1: not sure about that. If I were investigators, if I 482 00:29:55,205 --> 00:29:59,045 Speaker 1: had any questions about how Virginia's second husband died, I 483 00:29:59,045 --> 00:30:02,485 Speaker 1: would be looking through that autopsy report finding out if 484 00:30:02,525 --> 00:30:05,845 Speaker 1: he was taking any nitro medication, which is the comment 485 00:30:05,885 --> 00:30:08,925 Speaker 1: that Virginia made to her grandson. I would be looking 486 00:30:08,965 --> 00:30:14,725 Speaker 1: for any irregularities. Virginia's daughter, Connie, pleaded guilty to tampering 487 00:30:14,725 --> 00:30:18,685 Speaker 1: with public records and conspiracy for her role in notarizing 488 00:30:18,725 --> 00:30:21,845 Speaker 1: that forged deed. All she got was two years probation, 489 00:30:23,125 --> 00:30:27,645 Speaker 1: and as shocking as it sounds, Virginia may not be 490 00:30:27,725 --> 00:30:31,405 Speaker 1: incarcerated for that long. She's in her early seventies now, 491 00:30:31,845 --> 00:30:34,605 Speaker 1: she's doing her time in Muncie, and she will be 492 00:30:34,685 --> 00:30:38,685 Speaker 1: eligible for parole in a couple of years. I'm bringing 493 00:30:38,685 --> 00:30:41,565 Speaker 1: this up for a couple reasons. Number one, I feel 494 00:30:41,605 --> 00:30:44,245 Speaker 1: so sad for Kim and for other members of her family. 495 00:30:44,725 --> 00:30:47,125 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine how tragic it would be to have 496 00:30:47,165 --> 00:30:48,965 Speaker 1: to deal with not just the fact that your father 497 00:30:49,045 --> 00:30:53,165 Speaker 1: has been murdered under these horrific circumstances, then you also 498 00:30:53,205 --> 00:30:55,205 Speaker 1: have to deal with the reality of knowing that this 499 00:30:55,325 --> 00:30:58,885 Speaker 1: woman has lied to you for years, she kept you 500 00:30:58,965 --> 00:31:02,205 Speaker 1: from your father. So not only did Kim have to 501 00:31:02,245 --> 00:31:04,885 Speaker 1: lose her father, she had to live with six years 502 00:31:04,925 --> 00:31:06,765 Speaker 1: of thinking that her father was mad at her, that 503 00:31:06,805 --> 00:31:08,405 Speaker 1: he might hate her, that he didn't want. 504 00:31:08,285 --> 00:31:08,925 Speaker 2: To talk to her. 505 00:31:09,525 --> 00:31:12,165 Speaker 1: I think about the cruelty of that. It is just breathtaking. 506 00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:16,885 Speaker 1: Kim reached out so many times. That was such a 507 00:31:16,965 --> 00:31:20,125 Speaker 1: cruel thing for Virginia to do to her in addition 508 00:31:20,205 --> 00:31:23,885 Speaker 1: to committing that murder. The second reason is if and 509 00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:28,085 Speaker 1: when Virginia gets parole, I think people should be concerned. 510 00:31:29,165 --> 00:31:33,285 Speaker 1: She was prosecuted for wire fraud charges for concealing Thomas's 511 00:31:33,325 --> 00:31:36,285 Speaker 1: death and stealing the money from Social Security. According to 512 00:31:36,325 --> 00:31:38,605 Speaker 1: a press release put out by the United States Attorney 513 00:31:38,605 --> 00:31:42,325 Speaker 1: General's Office for the Middle District of Pennsylvania. The maximum 514 00:31:42,365 --> 00:31:45,445 Speaker 1: penalty for those charges would have been a total of 515 00:31:45,445 --> 00:31:48,845 Speaker 1: two hundred and forty years in prison. That's also mind 516 00:31:48,885 --> 00:31:52,045 Speaker 1: blowing to me, by the way that someone can get 517 00:31:52,125 --> 00:31:56,005 Speaker 1: a six to twenty year sentence for murdering and scalping 518 00:31:56,005 --> 00:32:00,565 Speaker 1: someone and face two hundred and forty years for financial fraud. 519 00:32:00,925 --> 00:32:04,365 Speaker 1: But that's the world we live in. In the end, 520 00:32:04,445 --> 00:32:08,205 Speaker 1: Virginia took a pleading for that as well, and she 521 00:32:08,285 --> 00:32:11,125 Speaker 1: was sentenced to just eighteen months on those charges to 522 00:32:11,245 --> 00:32:16,085 Speaker 1: run concurrently with the other charges she's incarcerated for. Based 523 00:32:16,125 --> 00:32:19,445 Speaker 1: on Virginia's past and the things she's been convicted of, 524 00:32:20,085 --> 00:32:21,925 Speaker 1: she may have done her time when she comes out, 525 00:32:21,965 --> 00:32:24,645 Speaker 1: but in my opinion, the public is at risk. I 526 00:32:24,685 --> 00:32:28,045 Speaker 1: believe she's never shown any sign of remorse, and she 527 00:32:28,165 --> 00:32:31,205 Speaker 1: is still fairly young. She may be in her seventies, 528 00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:33,925 Speaker 1: but my mom is about her age. She looks and 529 00:32:33,965 --> 00:32:37,845 Speaker 1: acts super young. It's important to remember, even though she 530 00:32:37,965 --> 00:32:41,125 Speaker 1: might be a grandmother, you can't assume just because someone 531 00:32:41,165 --> 00:32:44,005 Speaker 1: has gray hair and a sweet little smile that they 532 00:32:44,005 --> 00:32:47,565 Speaker 1: are not up to something evil. I am not ruling 533 00:32:47,565 --> 00:32:50,525 Speaker 1: out the possibility there may be other bodies and other 534 00:32:50,605 --> 00:32:54,765 Speaker 1: victims out there. The most terrifying part is this woman 535 00:32:54,805 --> 00:32:59,165 Speaker 1: has murdered and scalped someone and we still might not 536 00:32:59,325 --> 00:33:02,165 Speaker 1: know all of the secret she's hiding. There could be 537 00:33:02,245 --> 00:33:06,725 Speaker 1: more victims out there. To this date, Amas's body has 538 00:33:06,805 --> 00:33:11,565 Speaker 1: never been found. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone 539 00:33:11,805 --> 00:33:20,125 Speaker 1: Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production of 540 00:33:20,205 --> 00:33:23,445 Speaker 1: School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated 541 00:33:23,485 --> 00:33:26,565 Speaker 1: by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts and 542 00:33:26,565 --> 00:33:30,565 Speaker 1: Miranda Hawkins. Special thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance. 543 00:33:31,165 --> 00:33:35,125 Speaker 1: Music contributed by Ben Sale. Miranda Hawkins mixed and scored 544 00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:39,245 Speaker 1: this episode. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and 545 00:33:39,285 --> 00:33:43,245 Speaker 1: Else Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone ad free by subscribing 546 00:33:43,285 --> 00:33:46,285 Speaker 1: to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts. 547 00:33:46,645 --> 00:33:49,525 Speaker 1: You can follow the show on Instagram at Hell and 548 00:33:49,565 --> 00:33:52,645 Speaker 1: Gone pod. If you have a case she'd like me 549 00:33:52,685 --> 00:33:54,765 Speaker 1: and my team to look into, you can reach out 550 00:33:54,805 --> 00:33:57,085 Speaker 1: to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six 551 00:33:57,125 --> 00:34:00,365 Speaker 1: seven eight seven four four six ' one four five. 552 00:34:00,845 --> 00:34:04,085 Speaker 1: That's six seven eight seven four four six ' one 553 00:34:04,285 --> 00:34:13,685 Speaker 1: four five. School of Humans