WEBVTT - Confronting Complex PTSD with Stephanie Foo 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.640 The past is always here, haunting our homes, standing over 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:07.600 us at night. They say, you don't get rid of 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.840 a ghost by pretending it isn't there. The legends tell 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:16.279 us to address the ghosts directly, so, writes author and 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:22.360 producer Stephanie fo, a gifted author, journalist, an Emmy Award 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.599 winning producer who has worked on shows like This, American 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:31.560 Life and Snap Judgment. Her journey through complex post traumatic 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:37.560 stress disorder, originating from significant childhood abuse and culminating with 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.680 both of her parents abandoning her before the age of eighteen, 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:47.440 is a poetic masterclass on complex trauma and the ongoing 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:53.720 journey of feeling whole after these kinds of experiences. Stephanie's book, 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.360 What My Bones Know has been called one of the 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:02.040 best non fiction books of two twenty two, and having 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:07.440 read it, I cannot agree more. This podcast should not 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.319 be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:17.640 Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:22.720 or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:29.039 medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:36.240 discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:41.680 be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:46.440 are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.920 in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:57.200 Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Stephanie Fou, 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:01.560 I am fangirling for a minute, and I read your book. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:03.680 And when I read your book, I was actually on 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.760 an airplane, and there's something about an airplane. It's a 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.600 night flight, it's dark, you're alone. That's the wishing sound 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.000 of the airplane's almost womb like. And I cried so 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.280 much that the flight attendant actually had to check on 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.160 how I was doing. And I wasn't crying from a 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.640 place of sadness. And I'm actually getting tious. I'm thinking 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.679 about it now. There is such a recognition in your book. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.680 Decades of working with clients who have had experiences like yours. 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.240 People who are close to me, we've had experiences like 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.519 what you detailed. You hit it in such a special way, 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.640 and then you took it to that journey of healing. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.160 So not only did I feel like you were able 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.800 to use language, You're an amazing writer. You were able 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.080 to use language to capture something that I feel and 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.400 this is what's so unique about complex trauma, that's so uncapturable. 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.440 You also left us with a story of hope. So 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:57.720 I want to thank you for that, because even if 0:02:57.720 --> 0:02:59.560 all I get to say to you today is thank 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:01.760 you for the ift you've given not only to survivors, 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.440 but frankly to clinicians, I think that complex trauma is 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:10.520 still a very misunderstood phenomenon in mental health, and more 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.639 than any textbook, I actually think your book should be 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.440 in the hands of every trainee, every graduate student, and frankly, 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.720 every therapist in America for what you've captured, not only 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.320 about complex trauma, but about the cultural frameworks which often 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.120 gets missed in this conversation. So again for me to 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:29.520 you start, we can't even end here, and I say 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.160 thank you, but we're not going to end here. Wow, 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.280 where I'd like to begin. Actually, I want to get 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.240 to your story. But because we keep using this term 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.080 complex trauma, for you, as a survivor, I would love 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:45.240 for you to lay out for anyone listening today what 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.400 it means and what complex trauma has meant to you. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.480 But more than anything, from your perspective as a survivor, 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.760 what is complex trauma. You know, you can get traditional 0:03:55.040 --> 0:04:00.160 PTSD from a single traumatic event. So let's say you're 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.720 in a car crash, you can get trauma from that. 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.640 I think complex trauma occurs when the trauma happens over 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.320 and over and over again, and so it's kind of 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.000 like if you were in a car crash every week 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.320 for three years. You know, but of course, unless you 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.520 are tremendously tremendously unlucky, that's not going to happen to 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.840 you unless somebody in your life or people in your 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.640 life are really letting you down. So complex trauma happens 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:34.320 the most in cases of child abuse, having an abusive partner, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.400 living in a war zone. So it sort of does 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:45.240 really deteriorate your trust in relationships and other people because 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.680 it means that you have been let down hundreds, if 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.720 not thousands and thousands of times by very often people 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.200 who are supposed to love you and take care of you. 0:04:55.720 --> 0:05:01.000 And that is a deeper wound I think, and trauma 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.280 from a singular event h and so of course it 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:09.400 becomes more complex to heal. How old were you when 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:14.000 that model, that framework of complex trauma was given to 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:20.280 you for the first time. I was thirty. Okay, thirty. Yeah. 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.440 The reason I'm asking that is obviously you were a child, 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:26.320 so you were in a different space, but that meant 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.039 for your late adolescence into your adulthood, you must have 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.479 been walking around in an experience that didn't make sense 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.719 to you. I knew I was depressed. I knew that 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:41.320 I was anxious. I had self harming thoughts from when 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.279 I was twelve years old, and I suspected that it 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:50.040 had something to do with my very unstable childhood. But 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.400 I don't think that I quite understood the gravitas of 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.520 how my childhood was affecting all of my day to 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.360 day interactions until I finally got the diagnosis of complex PTSD. 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.520 So I'd like to go backwards now and again. You 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.720 talk about it in the book, but not everyone listening 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.800 has read your book yet, though after this interview, I 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:12.880 hope all of them do go out to get the 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.520 richness of all that is in your book. Can you 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.720 take us back and lay out for our listeners what 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:24.279 this childhood looked like. I grew up in San Jose, California, 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:29.599 in a immigrant community. My family was comfortably middle class. 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.440 When I was thirteen, my mom left and when I 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.520 was sixteen, my dad left for another family and he 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.720 left me the house. So I spent the last year 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.320 of high school or so a year and a half 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:42.800 sort of raising myself. First of all, thank you for 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.440 sharing that. How did you make sense of this as 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.599 a child? It was all my fault? My parents said 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.480 it was all my fault, and so I internalized that. 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.840 And I think if it's the parents' fault that they 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.200 are chaotic. A child cannot deal with how painful that is. 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.400 And if a child thinks it's my fault, then they 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.960 have some element of control over it, and they still 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.719 have some figures that they can idealize. And so that 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:14.000 was very classic in my case. Your case is interesting, though, Stephanie, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.080 because JU determines work in saying that the child takes 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.320 responsibility for it. That's going to be normative across the 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.000 spectrum of abuse a child can experience. It's a survival behavior, right. 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.080 It facilitates attachment if they're the good ones, and I 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.200 can still be safe. Right. In your situation, though, it 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.679 was leveled up because your parents literally articulated that their 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.120 abuse of you was your fault. They were hating you 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.200 because it was your fault. They were saying these things 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.200 because it was your fault. There was no interpretive moment here. 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.680 They were actually handing you that script. That's true. Yeah, 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.120 And that was all the more striking to me because 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.360 as I was reading that as a therapist, the idea 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:57.880 of how do you undo this when this is not 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.400 a little sort of survival the child was engaged in. 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.760 This is literally what you were being told. I internalized that, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.760 and I think even now, probably my whole life, the 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:13.080 battle will be to challenge the voice in the back 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.960 of my head that is constantly this is all your fault, 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.440 even despite how lyrically you've laid your story out, how 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:24.320 successful your life has become, that that voice has sort 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.360 of taken up permanent residency. I do want us to 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:29.520 come back to that because I think it's important for 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.640 survivors to hear when your mother left when you were thirteen. 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.240 Now you're thirteen, you're not young young, five or six. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.600 What was that emotionally like for you when somebody who 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.800 was such a severe abuser disappeared from your life. You know, 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.720 it was really complicated because there was an element of 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.200 obviously abandonment, of sadness, of feeling like Why wasn't I 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.400 enough for you to stay? Why couldn't you have tried harder? 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.520 Because I had tried so hard for my parents to 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.559 maintain their marriage into maintain a family unit. But at 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.000 the same time, there was a lot of relief because 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.439 I wasn't being beaten every day. You know, that's kind 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.600 of nice. It was a great reprieve, And it was 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.800 a very complicated time emotionally for me because I think, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.760 you know, my mom was very strict, very obsessive about 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:24.680 grades and performance, and so I think when she left, 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.360 I kind of went buck wild in terms of having 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.160 total freedom. Nobody was watching over me. My dad was 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:35.080 sort of like very absentee parent, and so there were 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.920 times when I was like, why isn't anybody parenting me? 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.920 And I almost missed some form of that guidance. But overall, 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.680 I think it was mostly relief. And when you said 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:48.920 you I'm buck wild, How did that affect you in 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.560 terms of school, pure relationships, any of it. What does 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.640 that look like? Yeah? I think just like demolishing relationships 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.120 left and right, being very very angry. I for a 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:04.200 couple of years failed every class and just stopped doing 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.520 any of my extracurriculars and just kind of, I don't know, 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.040 watched TV and sort of the Internet and ate Cereal 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.960 all day long. Then it's just you and dad, Okay. 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.560 For a few years, what was that? Like, my dad 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.559 needed to be parented. It became a very parentified relationship 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:24.240 where I was taking care of him because he was 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:29.160 very emotionally unwell after the divorce. He had a lot 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.439 of feelings of abandonment, of loneliness, of hopelessness, and so 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.959 I sort of had to take care of him and 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.760 we sort of became best friends in a weird way, 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.720 partners in crime, where he really relied on me, but 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:44.720 he would also let me do whatever I wanted. And 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.480 after a couple of years that he did leave too 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.960 because he got a girlfriend. So then I was just 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:56.000 totally on my own. Stephanie talks about her father needing 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:01.400 to be parented. That right, there is a signature of 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:07.760 any antagonistic parenting relationship. The child has to step in 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.880 and take care of the parent, which effectively means that 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:17.679 the child's needs have no place in the relationship. This 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:23.720 caregiving reversal may not happen in as extreme a manner 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:28.480 as it did for Stephanie. But many people with egocentric 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.520 parents will recall that it was about meeting the parents 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.800 needs and wants. Children's needs and children's wants were at 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:42.520 best secondary, and that set up a precedent going into 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:48.320 adulthood of not having learned how to express your needs 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:53.200 if you came from this kind of family or parental relationship. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.120 That part of your story, Stephanie, was really striking to me, right, 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:01.760 So what was stunning was that there was literally no 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:07.000 recognition in your environment that a child has been abandoned once. Okay, 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.760 thirteen is a child because child had been abandoned once 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:14.760 and the only remaining adult was so focused on his needs. 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.400 I think that it's actually a really compassionate take that 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.559 he needed to be parented. But in essence, though, still 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.120 you as the child, was the vessel of addressing your parents' 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:29.040 needs and being the tool they used to regulate. As 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:30.720 a reader, you'reel like, all I want to do is 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.640 protect Stephanie. I wanted to let her know she's gonna 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.400 be safe forever. But in fact, your father immediately pivoted 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.640 into his own needs and then cultivated a new relationship 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.559 and got up and left. How does one make sense 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.079 of a second abandonment prior to the age of eighteen. 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.439 I think at that age it was a combination of 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.400 rage and self loathing, because there was this part of 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.080 me that understood that this was how do you leave 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.480 a child who's already been left? How you have to 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:06.439 be a patently selfish person to do something that you're responsible, 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:12.120 that cool, that heartless. On the other hand, maybe that 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.840 everyone leaves because you are the problem. Maybe everyone has 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:23.160 left me because I am unlovable, And so that is 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.400 where this deep set belief really sank in. I think 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.920 is my senior year of high school, that like, if 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.560 even my parents cannot love me, then who can? Yeah? 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.439 And I think that anyone hearing this would completely resonate 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.320 with that, because again it's meaning making right you as 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.120 an adolescent, and it's a child we're left trying to 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.240 make sense of something that made no sense. I mean, 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.600 that's really the core of complex drama in many ways, 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.520 making sense of the brutal and that which is not 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.000 to happen in essence, And so the stories that you 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.640 make out of that are ultimately ones where you can 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.200 control the narrative, and the way to control the narrative 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.040 to say is that it's got to be me. I'm unlovable, 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:06.240 and so people are going to leave, and it almost 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:10.559 becomes a very easy and accessible kind of a factoid, 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.840 I'm unlovable. People self fulfilling prophecy exactly. So talk to 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.600 us about that. Talk to us about the self fulfilling prophecy. 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.720 Then how did that unfold for you? I think that 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.880 if you believe inherently that you're unlovable, that all of 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.680 your relationships going forward are therefore going to be based 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.920 on intense fear. Right again, this is the root of 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.080 complex PTSD. You don't trust anyone right because how could 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.720 you when you have no model for being loved appropriately? 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.040 And so I think anytime somebody tried to give me love, 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.040 I was very skeptical. I was always looking through the out. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.240 I was like looking for the reason why they were 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:55.640 going to leave, and so they built this paranoia. Nobody 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.760 wants to constantly be assuring their partner, Yes, I do 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:03.760 love of you. You know that's kind of old and yeah, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.720 I mean I would absolutely pick fights, blow things up 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.520 because I saw something on the horizon that perhaps was 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.360 not there, but then manifested it. And yet, as you know, 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.520 as you say that again from my shrink seat, and 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.360 I'm like, well, that absolutely makes sense, because then you 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.760 were going to be safe, right, all trauma behaviors or 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.520 safety behaviors, and that's what you were doing. But for 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:28.640 you was basically it's not tactical, right, It's just it's happening. 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.800 And no one around you is a trauma therapist. They're 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.960 your friends, and so that only is then going to 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.920 add to that sense of loneliness, but it also fortifies 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.800 the hypothesis everyone leaves when your father left, So now 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:43.840 you're going through it sounds like part of your junior 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.880 and all of your senior year alone. What's this known 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.480 to the other people around you, to your peers, to 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.120 your teachers, to any other adults in your environment. This 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.920 was not known to my teachers. It was known as 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.480 some of my peers, but not all of them. My 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.440 boyfriend knew. Funny, I thought I was just telling everyone. 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:09.480 I thought everybody knew this, But subconsciously I must have known. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.360 You know, that's illegal, so don't go around telling everybody 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.320 what happened to you. Yeah, and so I you know, 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.160 it was only after the book came out that I 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.560 realized this. The book came out. Everybody I knew read 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.840 it and everybody was like, I did not know, And 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.680 I was like, how could you not know? But yeah, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.320 one of my very very good friends, I said, you know, 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.200 I went over to your house senior year and I 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.480 opened your refrigerator and there was nothing in it. There 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.560 were no condiments, nothing. There was a horta filter and 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.160 there was a couple of slices of pizza. And I 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.560 was like, where's all your food? And you said, oh, 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.480 my dad bought me a pizza last week. And she 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.800 remembers at the time thinking like that is not how 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.800 you take care of a child. I think the only 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.640 people who knew were children. They didn't have the power 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.720 to do anything. Now, was there an intentionality and you 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.000 not sharing it? Were you were very aware because the 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.280 way you just put it, if people knew, there might 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.360 have been its own destabilization that came from that, right. 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.080 I mean, even as a child, my parents were always like, 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.280 don't say what happens, because then you'll get put in 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.639 foster care. And that in and of itself is really terrifying. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.280 And I at that point, I was like, there's the 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.720 devil that I do know, and there's the devil that 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.040 I don't, and what I know is that I can 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.639 take care of myself. And I had this very strongly 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:30.679 independent streak that, of course, lots of CPTSC survivors been 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.800 maintained that all we need is ourselves because we're the 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.600 only ones who can trust. And I thought I would 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.720 rather do this than be put into a home with 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.160 potentially more abusive parents. There was a particularly poignant scene 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:48.359 in your book, Stephanie, when a neighbor got involved. The 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.639 neighbor had been hearing things and it was almost like 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.000 she couldn't take it anymore, and she came across the street. 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.199 She came over to the house. And now how that 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:03.480 entire scene unfolded with you ultimately saying, nothing's happening. Nothing's happening. 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.960 If you feel comfortable talking about that scene, we can. 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.360 If you don't, I understand. It was an absolute, profound 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.760 example of the double bind a child is in any 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.919 situations when somebody actually can come along with safety, the 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.439 chronically abused child has to deny that safety. The neighbor 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.320 was trying to protect me, and I see that now, 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.199 but at the time, here was this person coming in 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:29.960 doing their best to try to help me. But this 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:31.840 seemed dangerous because this person was like, I'm going to 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.119 call the cops, and you don't want your mom to 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.600 go to jail. You don't want your parents to go 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.280 to jail. My mom was, you know, obviously scared, but 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:47.320 very much denying anything happened. And so the safest option 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.000 for me was to deny. And so I got on 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.680 my knees at my neighbor's feet, begging her, please don't 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.280 call the cops. And I still knowing what I know 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.680 about the foster care system, correct, Yeah, still not sure 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.880 that wasn't the correct answer. I don't disagree, and that's 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:07.840 exactly what I felt when I read that part of 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.960 your book. So anyone hearing this conversation as it read 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.280 the book, their question may very well be, well, didn't 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.960 Stephanie have extended family? And you did, but a lot 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:22.119 of them were in Malaysia. Yeah, they were when you 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.760 would visit Malaysia. They were also attempting to make sense 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:30.320 of this. How were they making sense of this experience 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.199 you were going through or were they completely unaware of 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.879 what was happening. They were not aware of a lot. 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.719 They were not aware when my dad left because we 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.320 were mostly in touch with my father's family. Oh, I see, 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.240 my mom wasn't very close with her family generally, so 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.280 they all knew how bad my mother was. They understood 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.240 the abuse in that sense because they had seen it, 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:54.360 because my mom would be me when you went back 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.159 to Malaysia. You know, my mom would scream at me 0:19:57.359 --> 0:19:59.600 in front of my whole family, and so they thought 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.720 that she was quite monstrous, and so they would try 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.040 to spoil me when I was there. They would all 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.240 try and constantly say, what a good girl, what a 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.840 good well behaved girl. Hope, why, hope, why, you know, 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.920 to try to convince her and me maybe that I 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.760 was not the devil child my mom made me out 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:24.240 to be. That dynamic Stephanie of You're the favorite. You're 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.960 such a good girl. You know, we like you so much. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.520 It's so interesting because in a way, and you actually 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.080 talk about Pete Walker in your book, who is a 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:37.760 renowned trauma and attachment therapist whose work I really really 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.160 admire in respect, but it's as though your entire family 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.600 was engaging in what we call a fawn response, as 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:49.000 though they were almost trying to win over your mother, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.480 but not to protect themselves. It was like fawn response 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.240 by proxy. It was as though that if they could 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.760 somehow win her over and convince her of your goodness, 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.400 that you could be safe. But the thing that they 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:08.040 couldn't do was confront her directly about her behavior. Yeah, 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:09.600 you know, and that to me, they were all too 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.240 afraid of that. Since they were afraid, and in a 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.639 way it had to be all the more confusing for 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.400 you as a child. How much of that was cultural? 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:19.679 Their unwillingness, I mean, was that cultural? Do you think 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.119 that would have happened in any culture in the world 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.080 that family members wouldn't be able to address how your 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:26.960 mother was coming at you. You know, after I did 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.719 my story, lots of Malaysian Chinese people did reach out 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:32.600 and they were like, this resonated with me. But lots 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.920 of white people did too, Yeah, Americans. Yeah, And so 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.560 I don't think it's purely cultural. I think that lots 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:40.720 of people want to maintain the status quo and are 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.240 really terrified. And I think in our culture it's very 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:47.960 much stigmatized to criticize other people's relationships. You know, it's 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.960 sort of like, oh, clearly your partner is not the best, 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.120 but I'm just gonna keep quiet about it, because that's 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:57.720 your life, your thing that you need to figure out. 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.960 Nobody in our family had ever gotten divorced. Nobody and 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.000 our family had ever gotten counseling. I mean, you know, 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.639 and even in America, this is the nineties, that wasn't 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:14.000 made very accessible to us. It wasn't quite as mainstream 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:17.280 as it is now seeking therapy when you were young, okay, 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:19.760 so before the age of twenty, did anyone ever take 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.199 you aside and said, Stephanie, what's happening here is not 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.800 okay in your family and your extended family. No, no, 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.399 you know again that often is enough. Even if the 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:36.600 abuse doesn't stop, that moment of validation of what you're 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:41.920 enduring is absolutely wrong. I'm not saying it would end 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:45.480 the cycle, but for a moment, it would take the 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.439 person surviving at saying okay, I'm not crazy, this is 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:55.400 not okay, it's the crazy making thing. Yes. Yes, So 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.560 now I want to shift a little because now you 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.520 go into adulthood and you know, you get involved in 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.479 journalism and what was so I mean compelling about your 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.560 story was you're like, that's what I want to do. 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.320 You really kind of got your eyes Ultimately Raizor focused 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:12.840 on the position you wanted, and you put your head down. 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:15.040 You got a college degree, you did well in school, 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:17.400 You had a clear goal, and you went for it. 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.280 I think that many people who hear a story like yours, 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:23.399 we'll think, well, a person after this is going to 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.320 be completely addled and scattered and doesn't know up from 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:33.000 down and right from left. You instead became ridiculously focused 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:38.920 and had a extraordinary work ethic and ambition. Can you 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.480 link these two processes because in a way they almost 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:46.200 feel disconnected when we think of how we're told stories 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:50.800 of trauma. I think lots of people dissociate when they 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.879 go through trauma. And my favorite form of dissociation was work. 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:57.800 When you have a fancy job, like working at this 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:00.560