1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Our original coverage of Tyrone Noling's case was released on 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: December one, twenty twenty one. Since then, there have been 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: some developments. This reissue comes with an update from Ohio 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: and Is Project staff attorney Brian Howe on where Tyrone's 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: case currently lies. In nineteen ninety, eighteen year old Tyrone 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: Noling lived with friends whose ages ranged from fourteen to 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: twenty in Alliance, Ohio. With no real adult supervision or resources. 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: The boys engaged in several minor robberies, including one where 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Tyrone had accidentally fired a stolen twenty five caliber pistol 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: into the floor and no one was hurt. The young 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: men were arrested and Tyrone and his friend Gary Saint 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: Clair pled guilty around that same time. One county away 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: in Atwater, Ohio, on April fifth, nineteen ninety, Bernhardt and 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Cora Harding were shot to death in their home with 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: the twenty five caliber gun. The sheriff's office immediately had 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: several leads, including Tyrone and his friends, but after ballistics 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: testing showed the Tyrone's twenty five caliber gun was not 18 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: a match to the murder weapon, and with no other 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: physical evidence or eyewitness accounts, Tyrone and his friends were 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: dismissed as suspects. Nevertheless, when the investigation failed to nail 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: the other more viable suspects, investigators turned back to Tyrone 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: and his friends, who were coerced into turning on one 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: another by lies about non existent evidence and the real 24 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: threat of the death penalty. His friends Joey Dallasandro, Butch Walcott, 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: and Gary Saint Clair agreed to tout the false narrative in 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: which Tyrone and Gary Saint Clair murdered the Hardings testimony 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: they all later recanted. However, without knowledge of the much 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: more likely suspects, and only presented with the false testimonies, 29 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: the jury sent Tyrone to death row, from where he 30 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: and the Ohioanists Project continue to fight to clear his 31 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: name to. 32 00:01:51,200 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: This very day. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 33 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction. 34 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: This is a hard one even for me, because this 35 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: is one of the most twisted, entangled, nonsensical, and I'm 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: gonna say evil, wrongful convictions that I know of, And 37 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: of course I'm referring to the case of Tyrone Knowling. 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: Tyrone has been on death row in Ohio for over 39 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: thirty years, where he remains to this day and with 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: us today to talk about the case is a man 41 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: who knows it like the back of his hand, Brian How. 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: Brian is an attorney with the Ohio Innocence Project. So, Brian, 43 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're here, but Jesus, this is gonna be 44 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: a tough one. Thanks Jason, and Tyrone, I'm so glad 45 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: you're here with us today, even though I'm so very 46 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: sorry because of the reason why you're here and even 47 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: more so because of where you are. 48 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: Thank you. 49 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: So Tyrone, let's start by going back before everything that's happened. 50 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: What was your life like growing up? 51 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 4: I grew up in a small town outside of Kanton, Ohio, 52 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 4: in Stark County called Alliance. 53 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: I grew up in a one parent home with four. 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 4: Other siblings, and my childhood was like any other childhood. 55 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 4: Did sports, went to school, and as I got older, 56 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 4: I got in a little trouble, but for the most part, 57 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 4: life at home was pretty good. Turned eighteen and pretty 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 4: much found myself on my own, just hanging out with 59 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 4: a group of friends that I. 60 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: Had grew up with, and the group of friends that 61 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned here. You're talking about Johnny Trandafair, Gary Saint 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: Clair and Joseph Dlasandra and Butch Walcott and the latter 63 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: three all play a part in this wrongful conviction. Now, 64 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: you all were staying together in the same house, right, Yeah, I. 65 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 4: Didn't really know, Butch Wilcock. I grew up with Gary 66 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 4: Saint Clair and Joey Dallas Sandro. We lived pretty much 67 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 4: in the same neighborhood and knew each other since kindergarten. 68 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 4: Gary's stepdad had an accident and the house became vacant, 69 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 4: so we all just started congregating there. 70 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 3: We were just hanging out. We were doing. 71 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 4: Dumb stuff, you know, bought pizza, chase, girls, stayed up late. 72 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: And Brian, I want to bring you back in here. So, 73 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: like Tyrone says, he was getting into some trouble, which 74 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: is what leads to the connection with this crime, right sure. 75 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 5: I mean the reason that Tyrone was on the radar 76 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:36,679 Speaker 5: of investigators was that there were two burglaries that happened 77 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 5: the next county over the Tyrone was ultimately arrested for 78 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 5: completed guilty to and those robberies were what made him 79 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 5: a target in the Harding murder investigation to begin with. 80 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: Right, Tyrone and the other young men were involved in 81 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: some burglaries, and in one he did have a gun 82 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: that they got from another robbery, and the gun went 83 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: off accident and shot directly into the floor, but Tyrone 84 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,559 Speaker 1: made sure that no one was hurt before running away. 85 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean, this is not a guy who was out 86 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: to hurt anyone. He was definitely doing some very dumb things, 87 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: but not a violent guy. And he was arrested for 88 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: those robberies, pled guilty, and ended up serving time in prison. 89 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: And that leads us up to this crime, which happens 90 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: faithfully around the same time. I'm talking about April fifth, 91 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, which is when Bernhardt and Cora Harding, both 92 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: eighty one years old, were shot to death in their 93 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: own home. From the look of things, they had been 94 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: doing some spring cleaning and they were shot while sitting 95 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: at their dining room table. This isn't at Water, Ohio, 96 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: which is a rural town in Portage County. 97 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 5: And if you don't know at Water, Ohio, it's almost 98 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 5: a stretch to call it a town. The people who 99 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 5: live within a square mile of this you could count 100 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 5: on your hands. 101 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,559 Speaker 1: So let me set the stage. Saturday, April seventh, nineteen ninety. 102 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: At six fifteen pm, Chief Detective Dwayne Cayley was notified 103 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: by dispatcher Kathy Rabino that Jim Rabino had called and 104 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 1: reported that there were two people laying on the kitchen 105 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: floor at the neighbor's house. Jim's mother, who had lived 106 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: next door to the Hartigs for thirty years, asked him 107 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: to go check on them when she noticed their garage 108 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: had been opened with the lawnmower outside for almost three days. 109 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: There was no answer when he knocked on the door, 110 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: and their car was in the garage. He looked inside 111 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: and saw the heardgs laying on the kitchen floor. Now 112 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: ten twenty five caliber shellcases were found on the floor 113 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: of the Hartig home. Papers from the living room desk 114 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: were scattered around the room. Dresser drawers and jewelry boxes 115 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: were opened and had been rifled through. At this point, 116 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: Detective Kayley reported that they didn't seem to be any 117 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: signs of struggle from the victims. Mister Hardigs wallet was 118 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: in his pocket and the money was still inside, so 119 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: there was no force entry found in the house, and 120 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: it seemed as if there had been at least one 121 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: other person sitting at the kitchen table. You want to 122 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: take it from here, because this gets weirder and weirder. 123 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 5: Sure, so, it's not a usual occurrence in at Water, 124 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 5: Ohio to have a double murder, especially eighty plus year 125 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 5: old victims. And so the Sheriff's department began investigating. One 126 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 5: of the first leads that they had, and this is 127 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 5: even as they are processing the scene, they get a 128 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 5: call from a roller rink, maybe a couple of miles away, 129 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 5: and there is a person there saying that he lost 130 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 5: a twenty five caliber pistol there on Friday night. He 131 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 5: was looking for it, trying to see if anyone had 132 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 5: turned it in. He was worried that some kids were 133 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 5: going to find it. And the person is a man 134 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 5: named Dennis van Steinberg who lived in the area. Police 135 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 5: investigate that, but while they're doing that, leads are sort 136 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 5: of pouring in. Right This is a big deal in 137 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 5: the county, it's a big deal in the city. One 138 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 5: of the tips they get again almost right away, is 139 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 5: from a high school student named Nathan Chesley, and he 140 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 5: says that my foster brother told me that he was 141 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 5: the person who had killed the Heartiggs. And so police 142 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 5: are investigating that lead as well. 143 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so right off the bat, they have some pretty 144 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: strong leads here, right, So what's going on with the 145 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: first guy, Dennis van Steinberg. 146 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 5: They go talk to him. He says, well, yes, I 147 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 5: did have a twenty five. I don't know where it went. 148 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 5: It must have fallen out of my car or something 149 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 5: like that around the time of the murders. He said 150 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 5: he had found it. So the police check the pistol 151 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 5: to the ballistics of the rounds recovered from the scene 152 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 5: and it's not a match. And so at that point 153 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 5: the investigation into van Steinberg sort of fades away. In 154 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 5: the meantime, a police have followed up on Nathan Chesley's tip. 155 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 5: They go to his house, which is a woman who 156 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 5: had fostered a lot of sort of troubled teens in 157 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 5: the area. It's less than a mile and a half 158 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 5: from the scene. And you remember, there's not a lot 159 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 5: of people who live as close as Nathan Chesley did 160 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 5: to the victims in this case. And so the police 161 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 5: ask whether there's a foster brother around who they can interview, 162 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 5: and they're told there's a foster brother. He's only fourteen 163 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 5: years old. And they eliminate this foster brother pretty quickly. 164 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 5: In the meantime, they also get a tip from the 165 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 5: neighboring county, Stark County. Stark County has been investigating a 166 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 5: series of break in where a group of teenagers has 167 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 5: been going to various houses saying my car broke down 168 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 5: and I'd like to use your telephone. When they're let 169 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 5: inside the house, they then produce a shotgun and it 170 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 5: turns out to be a fake thirty eight caliber revolver 171 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 5: and they take various valuables VCRs, jewelry, things like that, 172 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 5: and that turns out to be Tyrone Noling and his 173 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,479 Speaker 5: co defendants. So Tyrone is arrested with his co defendants 174 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 5: and they find a twenty five caliber gun, so now 175 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 5: it's very interesting to the Porge County authorities. They test 176 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 5: that one for ballistics and it turns out that it 177 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 5: does not match the one that was used in the crime. 178 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no getting around that. So at this 179 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: point the sheriff knows that these guys, Tyrone and his 180 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: friends are not involved in the murders. 181 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 5: So at that point the investigation sort of stalls out 182 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 5: for about a year. The detectives are facing pressure, they 183 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 5: come up with another lead, this time they talk to 184 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 5: the Hardiggs doctor doctor Canone. The week before the bodies 185 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 5: were found, mister Hardigg told doctor Canone that he had 186 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 5: lent ten thousand dollars to an insurance salesman, that the 187 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 5: insurance salesman had failed to pay when the loan had 188 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 5: come due on April first, that something fishy was going 189 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 5: on with this loan and with the insurance salesman explanation 190 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 5: for why I refused to pay, and as soon as 191 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 5: he got off the phone with doctor Canone, he was 192 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 5: going to go sort this out with the insurance salesman. 193 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 5: The police start to look at insurance salesmen that the 194 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 5: Heartiggs had dealt with, and they find a man named 195 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 5: Lewis Leman. Lewis Leman denies having taken out alone, but 196 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 5: he was the insurance salesman for the Hertiggs. And what's more, 197 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 5: he had a twenty five caliber pistol as well. Unlike 198 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 5: the other two pistols that the police have compared, they're 199 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 5: able to look up the make and model and see 200 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 5: that the pistol Lehman had was consistent with the general 201 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 5: rifling characteristics of the rounds that were found in the house. 202 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 5: They asked Leman where his twenty five cal pistol was. 203 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 5: He said, well, I must have sold it. I don't 204 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 5: remember who bought it, I don't remember when I sold it, 205 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 5: and I'm done answering questions from you all. He refused 206 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 5: to take a lot of detector test and basically stopped 207 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 5: talking to detectives, and at that point the investigation had 208 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 5: basically completely stalled out. 209 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: So this lead with Lehman, I mean, if this was 210 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: a movie script, you'd say that this is it was 211 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: too obvious. Right. What I'm trying to wrap my head 212 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: around here is this sounds like the investigators are just 213 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: bungling this at every stage and we haven't even gotten 214 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: to one of the craziest leads, and that is this 215 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: guy Dan Wilson. 216 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 5: That's right. Dan Wilson is arrested for a murder a 217 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 5: few counties over in northern Ohio. Dan had gotten drunk, 218 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 5: put a young woman that he'd met earlier that night 219 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 5: in the trunk of his car, and set the car 220 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 5: on fire. This was very big news, and law enforcement 221 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 5: across northeast Ohio started looking at Dan for basically every 222 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 5: unsolved murder that they had that included the Portis County 223 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 5: Sheriff's Department. When they did that, they discovered something about 224 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 5: Dan Wilson that they'd missed earlier, and that is that 225 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 5: he was a foster brother of Nathan Chesl, the very 226 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 5: kid who came to them the day after the murder 227 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 5: and said, my foster brother confessed to that. When the 228 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 5: detectives followed up on that, they never interviewed Nathan Chesley, 229 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 5: eliminated the wrong foster brother. They never connected the dots 230 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 5: to Dan Wilson. They never bothered to interview Nathan Cheslay, 231 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 5: and so Dan Wilson, who lived within a mile of 232 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 5: the house and who police now believe is a serial killer, 233 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 5: was known to them almost immediately after the murder, and 234 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 5: they let it slip through their fingers. He went on 235 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 5: to kill another woman. 236 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to by Ohio Justice and Policy Center, 237 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: a nonprofit law firm that seeks justice for people to 238 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: directly impact it by Ohio's criminal legal system. 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In its twenty five year history, 245 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: OJPC has worked at the policy level and won numerous 246 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: victories in Ohio, including ending juvenile life without parole and 247 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: exempting seriously mentally ill people from the death penalty. To 248 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: learn more about Ohio Justice and Policy Center and how 249 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: you can support its mission, visit OHIOJPC dot org. That's 250 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: OHIOJPC dot org, Ohio Justice and Policy Center. We don't 251 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: write people. 252 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 5: Off, you know, at the very least. I think it 253 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 5: must have been embarrassing to the office that they had 254 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 5: this tip within days of the murder and they didn't 255 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 5: realize their mistake until Dan Wilson had committed another very 256 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 5: high profile murder. Right at the same time that that's happening, 257 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 5: someone gets a call from a woman named Marlene van Steinberg. 258 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 5: She is, I believe the aunt of Dennis van Steinberg again, 259 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 5: who was the very first person who they looked at 260 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 5: and who they eliminated after he turned in his weapon. Well, 261 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 5: Marlene says that in those first days of the investigation, 262 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 5: Dennis's father had come over to their house and asked 263 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 5: his brother, who is Marlene's husband, if he could borrow 264 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 5: his twenty five caliber pistol for a few weeks. And 265 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 5: when Richard van Steinberg asked, why do you need my 266 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 5: twenty five, the response was, well, Dennis had to get 267 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 5: rid of his because he was in some sort of 268 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 5: trouble with the police, and he needed a different one 269 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 5: to give the police, and so they ultimately gave it 270 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 5: to him, and that was the weapon that was turned 271 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 5: into the police and eliminated. What's more, Marlene says that 272 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 5: she called the police to tell them this during that 273 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 5: original investigation, So the police should have been on notice 274 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 5: that Dennis van Steinberg is turning in the wrong gun 275 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 5: for comparison purposes, and they still eliminated van Steinberg as 276 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 5: a suspect. So those two things are happening right back 277 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 5: to back. Dan Wilson comes to light and it comes 278 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 5: to light that they basically wasted a blistic comparison on 279 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 5: what they should have known was the wrong gun for 280 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 5: Dennis van Steinberg. 281 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: So we have these incredibly powerful leads that should have 282 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: led them not towards but away from those four boys, 283 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: because there's no connection between these nefarious characters and the 284 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: four kids. What happens next, So that. 285 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 5: Is when the Porridge County Prosecuting Attorney's office takes over 286 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 5: the investigation and they assigned their own investigator to the case, 287 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 5: a man named Ron Craig. 288 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: Yes, Ron Craig, let's not skip over this character. From 289 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: my understanding, he was known for his extremely aggressive interrogation techniques, 290 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: for playing fast and loose with the rules in order 291 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: to get results that he wanted. 292 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 5: That's right. Ron Craig was a person who the prosecuting 293 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 5: Attorney's office turned to who could crack this case open 294 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 5: through aggressive interrogation get results. That is what he was 295 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 5: known for at that time. If you look at where 296 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 5: the investigation was when they took it over, Dan Wilson 297 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 5: at that time was under indictment for murder. You could 298 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 5: not interview him without an attorney. Lewis Lehman at that 299 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 5: point was not cooperating. He had gotten an attorney as well. 300 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 5: Maybe the most logical place for Ron Craig to go 301 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 5: was back to these other four kids who had also 302 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 5: been eliminated through ballistics and try to see what he 303 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 5: could do in terms of interrogating them, and so he 304 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 5: started with Butch Walcott, who was sixteen years old at 305 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 5: the time. 306 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this part it gets more and more disturbing 307 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: because they took these four young kids, and with the 308 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: very real threat of the death penalty, they were able 309 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: to scare these kids and brow beat them into saying 310 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: things that they knew weren't true because they weren't there 311 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: and they didn't know anything. And basically, as in other 312 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: false confession cases or false eyewitness cases that we've seen 313 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: over and over again, they were fed the information by 314 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: the police and then they were given basically a Sophie's choice, 315 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: either you lie and implicate your friends, or we are 316 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: going to send you to death row. Right, am I 317 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: missing ay saying no? 318 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 5: And I mean for Butcher if you read the series 319 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 5: of interrogations and statements that he makes, at least my 320 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 5: impression is that he was terrified, and it's clear as 321 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 5: he's just trying to do his best. He continues to 322 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 5: insist he wasn't there, he had nothing to do with this. 323 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 5: He tells them everything they want to know about the 324 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 5: two robberies that happened in Stark County, but he says, 325 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 5: we never went to Fordage County. We never went out 326 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 5: to atwater. He doesn't know where it is. And that's 327 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 5: not an answer that ron Craig is going to accept. 328 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 5: So what they do is they send him to a 329 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 5: child psychologist, who then puts Butch, the sixteen year old kid, 330 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 5: under hypnosis in order to recover what they allege our 331 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 5: repressed memories of the murder. And so under hypnosis, they 332 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 5: would ask things like when did the murder take place? 333 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 5: And Butch would say, well, it was not quite dark, 334 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 5: but it was not quite light. I don't know, maybe 335 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 5: somewhere in between. I just don't remember. And he would 336 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 5: give answers like that to every question, and even these 337 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 5: psychologists at the time that if we keep this up, 338 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 5: he's just going to say false things to try and 339 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 5: make the investigators happy because he's so terrified. But it 340 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 5: didn't stop. 341 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: It, right, And I want to also mention that this 342 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: detective Ron Craig made sure to separate Butch from his father. 343 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: This detective pressured young Butch Walcott relentlessly lying directly to 344 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: the kid. That's right, that he had hard evidence implicating him, 345 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: including a witness and DNA matches, right, so you know 346 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: you can imagine what's going on in poor kid's brain, 347 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: where it's just getting completely scrambled. He's just given these answers. 348 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: They don't make any sense. And let us not forget 349 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: that the tape recorder was only turned on when Walcott 350 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: finally made statements that had been fed to him that 351 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: were consistent with what they wanted to hear. Right, that 352 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: was when he implicated the subject of our show today, 353 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: Tyrone Noling. And then Craig turned to one of the 354 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: other kids, the Alessandro, who said he knew nothing about 355 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: the murders, but his own attorney convinced him and his 356 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: family that he should plead bargain to avoid the electric chair. 357 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 5: That's right, yeah, I mean once they can get Butch 358 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 5: Wilcott to come up with the story, the rest sort 359 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 5: of fall in line at that point. They don't need 360 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 5: to go any further. Tyrone's the main target, and he's 361 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 5: indicted for aggravated murder with capital specifications. 362 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: Okay. In addition to the other guys, Saint Clair pled 363 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: guilty to the Hertig murders as well. Right, he had 364 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: given into pressure from Detective Craig as well as his 365 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: own attorneys and its family and he was understandably scared 366 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: out of his mind about the death penalty. And then 367 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: Tyrone Knowling is indicted initially for the murders in nineteen 368 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: ninety three. But this is when things get even weirder. 369 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: In June nineteen ninety three, the court entered a nol pross, 370 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: which means that the prosecutor or plaintiff states that they 371 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: will no longer pursue the matter, so they dismissed the case. 372 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: The whole thing should have wrapped up right there. That 373 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: should have been it. 374 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 5: Well, that's right, And the reason that the case was 375 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 5: initially dismissed was that almost as soon as they had 376 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 5: made the deals, both Joey Delassandro and Gary Saint Clair 377 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 5: started taking them back. You know, it's one thing under 378 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 5: a lot of pressure, under threats, with deals being offered, 379 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 5: to sort of agree to it in the abstract, under 380 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 5: that very immediate pressure. But as the court date actually approached, 381 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 5: Delessandro recanted asserted their innocence, We had nothing to do 382 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 5: with this. When Gary Saint Clair recant did in a 383 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 5: prison interview, said we lied, we were pressured, we had 384 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 5: nothing to do with this. And at that point I 385 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 5: think the state had no choice but to gree to 386 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 5: dismiss the case and tyrone. 387 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: This all has to be so crazy because you have 388 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: your friends and these guys you've known most of your 389 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: life saying things about this crime that you know you 390 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: weren't a part of, but you're indicted for it. And 391 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: then they dropped the charges. 392 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 4: You know, when they dropped charges against me, I didn't 393 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 4: see it coming. They offered a deal. I took a 394 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 4: lie detector test and it was placed on the prosecutor's 395 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 4: desk on that Friday. By Monday, they were rushing me 396 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 4: in the back of a courtroom with a judge saying, 397 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 4: you know, you need to cop out. I don't want 398 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 4: to sentence you to death. And I'm pleading with. 399 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 3: Them back there and I'm telling them I didn't do this, 400 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 3: and so they send me. 401 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 4: Back and I'm talking to my dad on the phone 402 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 4: and I'm crying and I'm saying I don't know what 403 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 4: to do. 404 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 3: And my dad says, did you do this? 405 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 4: And I said no, and he just said, well, then 406 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 4: you stick to your guns. 407 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 3: And that's what I did, even though I knew the 408 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 3: osber against me. 409 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 4: So the next day I go back into the courtroom 410 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 4: and I stand up, and the judge says, the prosecutor 411 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 4: wants to say something, and he dis misses every charge 412 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 4: against me. 413 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 3: And I can't even explain the feeling at that point. 414 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 3: I was happy. I wanted to cry, I wanted to yo. 415 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 3: I just wanted to get out of there. 416 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine to have them trying to get 417 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: you to take a deal while they know their case 418 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: is falling apart, but they're still trying to force you 419 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: into it with the very real threat of death, of 420 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: the death penalty, and then to just drop it. It's 421 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: like you get dizzy from this, right. So what happened next? 422 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 4: For three years almost I didn't hear nothing, and then 423 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 4: all of a sudden, the new prosecutor comes in, and 424 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 4: now they got Joey back on board. Once he realizes 425 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 4: all the time he's about to do on other charges 426 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 4: and decides that he's just going to make up some 427 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 4: stuff and remembers everything they want him to say, and 428 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 4: I'm being charged again. 429 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: Happens once again, Brian, what Tyrone is talking about here 430 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: with the election of the new prosecutor in Portage County 431 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: and Joey Dallas Sandro coming back on what's going on there. 432 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 5: Well, Joey at that point had been serving time on 433 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 5: unrelated charge and was sort of unhappy with his circumstances 434 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 5: and his sentence. He reached back out and explored the 435 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 5: option of what would happen if he did go back 436 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 5: on his recantation and agree to cooperate, which he ultimately 437 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,959 Speaker 5: agreed to do. That is what caused the state to 438 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 5: reindict Tyrone. Knowing and now with both Butch and Joey Delssandro, 439 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 5: they were ready to reprosecute the case. 440 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: So Tyrone's trial begins in January of nineteen ninety six, 441 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: six years after the crime. Right, so, Walcott, dallas Sandro, 442 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: and Saint Clair will call this prosecution witnesses. But the 443 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: former two boys gave testimonies that were very inconsistent details, 444 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: but they nevertheless supported the state's narrative. They said that 445 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: after the second robbery and their alliance Ohio neighborhood, all 446 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: four boys allegedly drove to Atwater, where Tyrone allegedly chose 447 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: the house to rob. Once they were at the Harding house, 448 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: Dallesandro or Walcott said they waited in the car while 449 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: Noling and Saint Clair allegedly went to the front door. 450 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: Some time later, according to Walcott and Dallasandro, Nolan and 451 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: Saint Clair came running from the Harding House and got 452 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: back into the car. Dalasandro testified that he allegedly smelled 453 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: smoke coming from Nolan's gun, and that Walcott said he 454 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: saw the gun smoking. They also said that Nolan confessed 455 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: to them. So, Tyrone, you're a trial and you see 456 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: your friends they're telling these crazy lies. Can you take 457 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: us back to that moment? 458 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 3: It was unbelievable. 459 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 4: I've known these guys for all my life and for 460 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 4: them just to disregard my life life and just to 461 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 4: sit up and they couldn't even look me in the face. 462 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 4: They just kept their eyes on the prosecutor. And I 463 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 4: wanted to get up and screen. I wanted to ask, 464 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 4: why are you doing this? 465 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: And so dallas Andre and Walcott are saying these things. 466 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: But Saint Clair decides not to lie for the state anymore. 467 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: He recanted his statement before trial and again courageously did 468 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: it again on the stand. He denied going to Atwater 469 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: and committing the murders, and then he was declared a 470 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: hostile witness. And get this, the state read the entirety 471 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: of his prior statement to the jury, which when I 472 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: was reading about this case, I was like, how can 473 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: that even for me? That seems beyond the pale, So Brian, 474 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: what did the defense attorney say, I mean the other suspect? 475 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: What about the other suspects? 476 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 5: Well, all of these plausible and I think likely ultimate 477 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 5: suspects who the police had originally investigated and who the 478 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 5: police hadn't really excluded. None of those names came up 479 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 5: during Tyrone's original trial, and it's plausible to believe that 480 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 5: it's because that information wasn't turned over to the defense 481 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 5: at the time of trial. There was only one theory 482 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 5: ever presented to the jury about who committed the crime, 483 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 5: and there were problems with that theory. There were holes 484 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 5: in that theory. You remember, the twenty five caliber gun 485 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 5: that Tyrone and his friends had taken in the prior 486 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 5: robbery was still excluded. It was not the murder weapon. 487 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 5: So they just had to come up with another story 488 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 5: about how they must have had a second twenty five 489 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 5: caliber gun and they must have picked it up somewhere 490 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 5: and then they got rid of it somewhere. And there 491 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 5: were things about this that didn't make sense. But I 492 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 5: think the community was still really hurt and outraged by 493 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 5: this murder, and they were only really given one theory 494 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 5: as to what happened, and despite the problems in that theory, 495 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 5: he was convicted. 496 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: Huh So, Tyrone, when the jury went out to deliberate, 497 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: did you have any hope at all all the things 498 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: were going to go with your favor. 499 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 4: I always stayed optimistic, even though I knew the cars 500 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 4: were stacked against me, And I kind of remember when. 501 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 3: They came and got me from the county jail. 502 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 4: They was taking me up the steps and they were 503 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 4: lined up with deputy sheriffs all the way up, and that. 504 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: Had never happened before. So my heart just sank at 505 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 3: that point. 506 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 4: And I remember being in the courtroom and the jury 507 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 4: coming in and one of the young ladies that was 508 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 4: a juror, she sat down and she looked at me 509 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 4: and she started crying, and I knew it was over. 510 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: Then. 511 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: I was scared to death. 512 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 4: I'm about to go someplace that they say is the 513 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 4: worst of the worst. 514 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 3: You're sentenced to death, You're sentenced to dot people that 515 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 3: have committed haineous crimes. I mean, I'm still young man. 516 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 4: I don't know what to expect, and I have no 517 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 4: choice because they're going to take me regardless. 518 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: So you have a good team of attorneys filing post 519 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: conviction motions, but they were all denied. And it's important 520 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: to mention here that all of the prosecution's witnesses, all 521 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: of them, Walcott, Dallas, Angele, and Saint Clair, every single 522 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: one of them has since recanted their testimonies. Right then, 523 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, the Ohio Innos's Project took 524 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: on your case. Can you tell us how that came about. 525 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 4: Well, my investigator, Vicki Buckwalter, was hired on and she 526 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 4: stayed with me after my conviction because she could not 527 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 4: believe what happened. She helped me contact people, write letters, 528 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 4: and we contacted the Enniscence Project. It was kind of 529 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 4: weird because Markazi showed up with a couple of students 530 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,239 Speaker 4: and I thought I was just going there for an 531 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 4: attorney visit. I told me I thought he had the 532 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 4: wrong room, and then he proceeded to tell me who 533 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 4: he was, and I just sat down and I felt 534 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 4: away off my soulas defined and they finally somebody's going 535 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 4: to help me. 536 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 3: I had a lot of respect from gratitude. 537 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: For them in those ensuing fifteen years, bringing us right 538 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: up to the present day, they bound a ton of 539 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: stuff that made it seem like the doors of the 540 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: prison should have sprung open by now and you should 541 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: have walked free right out into the sunshine. But of 542 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: course we know that that's not how the justice system 543 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: works in Ohio or unfortunately in the rest of our country. So, Brian, 544 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: can you tell us what the Ohio Innes's Project has 545 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: been doing to fight this case. 546 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 5: Originally, the Ohio Innescence Project was representing Tyrone just for 547 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 5: the purposes of trying to get DNA testing. There are 548 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 5: a few things that we know one percent were last 549 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 5: touched by the person who committed the crime, and that 550 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 5: is the ten shellcasings that were found at the scene, 551 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 5: and the ring boxes and other items that the perpetrator 552 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 5: had rifled through after the crime or during the crime. 553 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 5: DNA technology today is since enough to develop profile from 554 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 5: even just a few human cells, and so the hope 555 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,479 Speaker 5: was that if we were able to conduct DNA testing 556 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 5: on those items, that you would develop a clear profile. 557 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 5: And if that profile does not match Tyrone Knowling or 558 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 5: any one of his co defendants, that's going to be 559 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,959 Speaker 5: very very strong evidence of his innocence. Unfortunately, we were 560 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 5: not able to convince the court to allow us to 561 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 5: conduct that DNA testing, and so to this day that 562 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 5: evidence has not been tested. In the meantime, Tyrone's other 563 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 5: attorneys had filed a motion for new trial based on 564 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 5: very specific pieces of evidence that were uncovered at the 565 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 5: end of the original investigation by the Sheriff's department. Specifically, 566 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 5: first of all, the Nathan Chesley tip that was uncovered 567 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 5: in Tyrone's co defendants files. Secondly, the statement by Marlene 568 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 5: van Steinberg that the gun that had been eliminated from 569 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 5: Dennis mann Steinberg was not the actual gun that he 570 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 5: had on the night that the murder may have taken place. 571 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,719 Speaker 5: And finally, it had been own at the time. The 572 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 5: police had excluded Tyrone and his friends from the cigarette 573 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 5: butt using DNA testing, but they had been concerned enough 574 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 5: about Dan Wilson as a suspect that they had tested 575 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 5: Dan Wilson against that cigarette butt and he was not 576 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 5: able to be excluded using the prior period of technology 577 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 5: that was not turned over, we believe to the defense 578 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 5: at the time of the original trial either now here 579 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 5: today we are still waiting for an opportunity to fully 580 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 5: examine the prosecutor's files, to fully examine the sheriff's files, 581 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 5: to try to see what if anything, was in these 582 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 5: files that was subject to disclosure back at the original 583 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 5: trial in nineteen eighty five ninety six. 584 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: Since we last spoke, Brian Howe and the Ohio Ness 585 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: Project have been fighting Tyrone's case by trying to prove 586 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: that compelling leads and evidence had been concealed from the 587 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: defense and trial, specifically the insurance salesman Lehman, the Nathan 588 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: Chesley tip, Marleine van Steinberg, and Dennis van Steinberg's gun, 589 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: and the fact that primitive DNA testing had excluded Tyrone 590 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: and his friends from the cigarette butt, yet an alternative suspect, 591 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: Dan Wilson, was not excluded by zerology. All of this 592 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: can be cleared up by access to the state's file 593 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: in this case, and with a procedural rule from the 594 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: Ohio Supreme Court Rule forty two that took effect in 595 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, broad access to those files shall be granted 596 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: in the review of a capital case. And shortly after 597 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: the original release of this episode, there was an exciting 598 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: development right. 599 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 5: So in March of twenty twenty two, the Eleventh District 600 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 5: Court of Appeals did order the tyrone be given access 601 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 5: to the States file. We are today discussing with the 602 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 5: State how to move forward on the Rule forty two access. Specifically, 603 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 5: there's an issue about the extent to which the defense 604 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 5: expert is going to have access to the state's file. 605 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: So it's taken a year and a half of pushback 606 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: from the State to decide the conditions of the release 607 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: of these documents. 608 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think really more importantly, these were ques 609 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 5: were in years ago, and in fact, the original remand 610 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 5: order that said the prosecutor's file should be turned over, 611 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 5: I mean that was from twenty fourteen. It's I think 612 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 5: frustrating how long the process has taken. What he's asking 613 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 5: for couldn't be more reasonable. I mean, he's asking for 614 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 5: documents that the State says that they've already turned over 615 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 5: to him. Once all of that being said, I mean, 616 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 5: the state has agreed to now cooperate and move forward 617 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 5: with at least part of the access that was requested 618 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 5: and ordered by the Eleventh District. So I think, you know, 619 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 5: we're at a stage now where progress is happening. 620 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: And maybe the pushback on the progress is telling, because 621 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: if the state had turned over everything at the time 622 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: of trial, then why bother with the feet dragging here. Meanwhile, 623 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: he continues to sit on death row for a crime 624 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: for which DNA testing had excluded him and his friends. 625 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 5: They tested the cigarette but originally at the time of trial, 626 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 5: and Tyrone and all of his co defendants were excluded 627 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 5: from the cigarette but they knew at the time that 628 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 5: Dan Wilson was a possible contributor or at least had 629 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 5: a consistent blood type, and decided not apparently to seek 630 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 5: additional testing with him at the time of trial. And 631 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 5: we believe the idea that Dan WILSLM was even a 632 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 5: possible contributor to this life when the cigarette butt was 633 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 5: covered up or at least not disclosed to Tyrone's defense 634 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 5: attorneys at the time of trial. 635 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: How this even went to trial, let alone continues is 636 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: totally beyond me. The only evidence against him were the 637 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: coerced words of his code defendants who were fearing for 638 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: their own lives in the face of the death penalty. 639 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: And yep, you guessed that all of those guys have 640 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,760 Speaker 1: since recanted. While this battle for clarity about this wrongful 641 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 1: conviction rages on. We will return now to the episode 642 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: as it ended in this ever twenty twenty one, with 643 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: Tyrone still in the same freaking cell. As we continue 644 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: to hope against hope that Brian and the Ohilanis's Project's 645 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: efforts when Tyrone a new trial. 646 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 5: If he were to get a fair trial to day, 647 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 5: with all of the evidence that we know in front 648 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 5: of a jury, there's no chance that he would be convicted. 649 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 5: And to be in a world where this is all 650 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 5: sort of continuing to happen, it's continuing to advance in 651 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 5: slow motion, I mean, it's surreal. Certainly, our hope is 652 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 5: that he is successful in his current post conviction litigation, 653 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 5: that we're able to put this evidence finally in front 654 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 5: of a jury and give him a fair day in court. 655 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: Aymn to that, And Tyrone, for our audience listening today, 656 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: for someone who wants to see you have that fair shot, 657 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: which I'm sure everyone in our audience does, and who 658 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: wants to help and to get involved with writing this 659 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: wrong Is there something that you'd like to ask them 660 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: to do. 661 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 4: I would encourage them to reach out to our governor, 662 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 4: to reach out to state and local politicians. 663 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 3: I would ask them to be a voice. 664 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 4: Somebody out there knows something, and they can go to 665 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 4: Tyroneoling dot com or they can get a hold of 666 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 4: the Innocence Cincinnati and is this project if they're willing 667 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 4: to help or to be a voice, because I need 668 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 4: a voice. 669 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 3: I need that more than anything. 670 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll definitely have Tyrone Noling dot Com linked in 671 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: our bio, so please go there and learn what steps 672 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: you can take to help. And I also want to 673 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: mention there's a TV docu series called Death Row Stories 674 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: that did a piece on this case last year called 675 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: The Lost Boy, which shows a very powerful case for 676 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: the actual innocence of Tyron. And with that we turn 677 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: now to closing arguments. This is the part of our 678 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: show where I thank you Tyrone Noling for just being 679 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: with us today sharing your story, and also Brian Howe 680 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: for fighting tirelessly. So again, thank you for doing what 681 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: you're doing and for being here and sharing this awful 682 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: story with our audience. And now closing arguments works just 683 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: like this. I'll kick back in my chair, turn my 684 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: microphone off, leave my headphones on, close my eyes and 685 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: just listen to any final thoughts you want to share. 686 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,479 Speaker 1: So Brian, why don't you go first and we'll save 687 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: the best last. And that's of course that to you Tyrone. 688 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: So Brian closing arguments, well, you know. 689 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 5: First, let me thank you Jason for what you all 690 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 5: are doing here. As surreal as it sometimes seems that 691 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 5: this is still happening, it feels good to know that 692 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 5: people care, that people are paying attention. It feels good 693 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 5: to know that there are people who care about what's 694 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 5: happening in this case and what's happening to Tyrone. Again, 695 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 5: our hope is that people understand what's happening, that Tyrone 696 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 5: get a fair day in court. And the other thing 697 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 5: is is that the fact that Tyrone is innocent, but 698 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 5: I'm personally one hundred percent convinced of you know, I'm 699 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 5: not familiar with every death row case in the country, 700 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 5: but I wouldn't be surprised if he were the strongest 701 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 5: case of innocence of anyone currently on death row. That 702 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 5: means that there's someone who is responsible for this crime 703 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 5: that was never brought to justice, And it means that 704 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 5: there could be someone out there right now who knows 705 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 5: something that may have for whatever reason not wanted to 706 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 5: come forward and I wanted to get involved. I really 707 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 5: truly hope that that person is out there and that 708 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 5: they will reach out and come forward with any information 709 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 5: that they might have about the hard and murders. There 710 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 5: is a man's life on the line, an innocent man, 711 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 5: and if people have information, I truly truly hope that 712 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 5: they'll come forward with it and allow it to be 713 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 5: raised and brought before the court. 714 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: And now over to you, Tyron Well, I would like. 715 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 4: To first thank you, and again I think the most 716 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 4: important thing here is a voice. I'm an innocent person 717 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 4: on Ohio's death Row and I don't belong here and 718 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,399 Speaker 4: I need help. Now's the time. This is difficult. It's 719 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 4: difficult cleaning for your life, especially when you haven't been 720 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 4: heard for a long time. So I would just like 721 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 4: to thank everybody and to encourage him again to look 722 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 4: into my case, to get involved, to be a voice 723 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 4: for me, and to help me get out of here 724 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 4: because I'm innocent. 725 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 3: I don't want to be here, So please. 726 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to wrongful conviction. I'd like to 727 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cleiburn, 728 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis with research by Lyla Robinson. The music 729 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 730 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 731 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 732 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava 733 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow 734 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flamm. 735 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good podcast 736 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one