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Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a fried egg
Speaker 2: Frida egg, the dread and Frida egg, Frida egg, Frida
Speaker 2: egg egg Frida egg bride egg lie about ready to
Speaker 2: run off of the hub.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Podcast in
Speaker 1: our Superintendent series. Today, I am joined by Devin Carroll.
Speaker 1: She is a PhD student at the University Tennessee and
Speaker 1: their turf Weed Science program, and Devin came on to
Speaker 1: talk about a paper that she wrote recently during her studies.
Speaker 1: It is Women in Turf, a qualitative study examining how
Speaker 1: women have sustained their leadership role in the turf grass industry.
Speaker 1: So I thought this would be a very interesting topic
Speaker 1: given turf's you know what, Turf's biggest challenges is labor
Speaker 1: and a shortage and label or labor and talking about
Speaker 1: women in turf. So Devin was a great guest. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for her coming on, and I hope
Speaker 1: you guys enjoyed this episode. All right, Devin, thanks for
Speaker 1: coming on. I love to hear a little bit about
Speaker 1: yourself and what you're doing these days and how you
Speaker 1: got into turf.
Speaker 2: Sure. So, I'm originally from Pennsylvania. I played golf on
Speaker 2: my high school golf team, and my cousin's a golf
Speaker 2: course superintendent. So when it came time for me to
Speaker 2: pick what to do for college, I thought, Hey, I
Speaker 2: love the golf course. Being a superintendent sounds great. So
Speaker 2: I went to Penn State. I got an undergraduate degree
Speaker 2: Bachelor of Science and turf grass science, stayed down at
Speaker 2: penn State in a research capacity, got a master's degree
Speaker 2: in turf and then now I'm at the University of
Speaker 2: Tennessee working on a PhD in turf grass weed science.
Speaker 2: And while I was there, actually got a second master's
Speaker 2: degree in Agricultural Leadership, Education and Communications. And that was
Speaker 2: a really cool degree because I focused my research on
Speaker 2: women in turf grass, which is my two favorite things
Speaker 2: put together.
Speaker 1: That's that's great. I mean, you're just stacking degrees left
Speaker 1: and right. What So your cousin was a superintendent? Was
Speaker 1: it in the Pennsylvania area? And and did you you
Speaker 1: know what attracted you about what they did?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So he's a golf course superintendent for the scrant
Speaker 2: And Canoe Club right outside of scrant in Pennsylvania. And
Speaker 2: he just loved being outside. And I know one of
Speaker 2: the things for him that was always important was at
Speaker 2: the end of the day when he left the course,
Speaker 2: you know, he could see what he did, he could
Speaker 2: see the improvements that his crew made, he could see
Speaker 2: the golfers out there enjoying the work that they did,
Speaker 2: and he found that really rewarding. And I also kind
Speaker 2: of like that hands on type of work and knowing
Speaker 2: that I'm doing something to help other people enjoy their
Speaker 2: lives as well.
Speaker 1: It's something I always think about with with the turf
Speaker 1: industry is you know, I worked for startups before I
Speaker 1: started this, and you know, one of the things with
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship and working in like a small company, small growing
Speaker 1: company is like the benefits of it. You just feel
Speaker 1: such satisfaction every day because, like you when you're at
Speaker 1: a certain stage, like everything you do matters so much
Speaker 1: for the for the company's success. And I think that's
Speaker 1: so similar with with turf because like you see, just
Speaker 1: incremental improvement and and different things that you do leads
Speaker 1: to you know, success to other places, and it's really
Speaker 1: a rewarding feeling at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, and I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: in the industry share that same sentiment and that's a
Speaker 2: lot of times what gets people into it.
Speaker 1: So what where have you worked in the in the
Speaker 1: turf industry? I think you you've worked at Scranton country
Speaker 1: Club I saw, and what what other hands on experience
Speaker 1: have you had?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I did my official internship at the Country
Speaker 2: Club of Scranton I also did an unofficial internship with
Speaker 2: the Scranton and Wolfsparre Reial Riders. They're the Tripa, a
Speaker 2: baseball team for the New York Yankees. And then I've
Speaker 2: been very privileged to have worked four Masters tournaments, so
Speaker 2: I have set food on hallowed grounds. There.
Speaker 1: You got any any story? What's your favorite story from
Speaker 1: the Masters?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Gosh, if you that you could tell, you know, I
Speaker 1: know there's who knows, you know a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: under lock key, But is there one when you think
Speaker 1: back to your time? Is there one that stands out?
Speaker 2: Uh? Definitely the year that Tiger won. I mean the
Speaker 2: energy on the course, you could just feel it. And
Speaker 2: we all came into work early that morning, rare in
Speaker 2: to go because we all just knew it was gonna
Speaker 2: be an amazing day. And that's just a moment I'll
Speaker 2: never forget.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that's so cool. How like, what are the
Speaker 1: hours like for doing the turf there? I imagine it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of wild, a wild week where you're you're
Speaker 1: doing stuff at night and in the morning. Like, how
Speaker 1: does that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a really long week. We get in
Speaker 2: early and stay really late, but you know it takes
Speaker 2: a lot to have the grounds look the way that
Speaker 2: they do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that place, above anything else, like the presentation is
Speaker 1: at a whole different level. I you know, Country Club
Speaker 1: of Scranton is one of the places I probably most
Speaker 1: want to see this year. I still kick myself. One
Speaker 1: of my buddies got buried in Wilkes Barre and we
Speaker 1: were there and I just, you know, I was with
Speaker 1: my wife and I just didn't really have that much time.
Speaker 1: It was, you know, what, it's your friend's wedding, you
Speaker 1: kind of have to you know, if it was her
Speaker 1: friend's wedding, I might have you know, departed, but I
Speaker 1: couldn't leave her.
Speaker 2: Alone, you know, some obligations.
Speaker 1: What tell us a little bit about that property and
Speaker 1: what you what you learned, what was what was cool
Speaker 1: about that experience?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really loved working there. It's a technically a
Speaker 2: twenty seven whole course, so they've got eighteen holes that
Speaker 2: are kind of a link style, and then they've got
Speaker 2: a nine smaller nine hole course. So that was a
Speaker 2: really great experience as an intern. The nine hole course
Speaker 2: is certainly very well kept, but because it's not the
Speaker 2: forefront of the club, it definitely give me more of
Speaker 2: an opportunity to get on a spray er, get on
Speaker 2: some of the equipment, and that was more of a
Speaker 2: place for me to test some things out. But the
Speaker 2: way that they've got it set up there with the
Speaker 2: link style, I mean, when that fescue starts getting that
Speaker 2: purple golden hue, it's really an amazing place. It's something
Speaker 2: to see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Travis greens are the thing. They got to be,
Speaker 1: like Travis course unique to mow those greens with how
Speaker 1: sharp the undulations are.
Speaker 2: Some of them are really tough. I think it's number
Speaker 2: seven if I recall correctly to has a really steep
Speaker 2: bunker face. And if you've got a walk mower, yeah,
Speaker 2: you really have to be watching how you're negotiating some
Speaker 2: of those turns.
Speaker 1: So could you give us that you know, in your
Speaker 1: you know, early early experiences as as a woman in
Speaker 1: the turf industry, how's it been.
Speaker 2: Sure? So it was a little bit overwhelming at first.
Speaker 2: When I started my undergraduate career, Penn State told me
Speaker 2: that they hadn't had a woman in the program for
Speaker 2: a while. But you know, being a female golfer kind
Speaker 2: of you to do in my own thing. But I
Speaker 2: didn't really realize what that meant until I showed up
Speaker 2: and you know, my first day classes, I'm the only
Speaker 2: girl in the room and everyone's kind of looking at
Speaker 2: me like did you find the right classroom? And one
Speaker 2: of the moments that really sung in for me. Penn
Speaker 2: State is one of the larger state turf grass conferences.
Speaker 2: Each year. There's about three hundred attendees. And at one
Speaker 2: point I'm sitting in the middle of the room and
Speaker 2: I look around and I kid you not, I'm the
Speaker 2: only woman in the room, and that's when it kind
Speaker 2: of just hit me, like, wow, this is different. So overall,
Speaker 2: I had a positive experience, but you know, there's definitely
Speaker 2: some challenges. People always want to know your story, kind
Speaker 2: of a novelty a lot of times, which could be overwhelming.
Speaker 1: In a way, you know, just because of the amount
Speaker 1: you feel different, whether or not, like you're all there
Speaker 1: for the same thing, and you feel different just because
Speaker 1: nobody else is there with you as another woman in
Speaker 1: the class.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I always say, I mean, it's great to
Speaker 2: promote women in turf, but sometimes when people kind of
Speaker 2: point out that a woman, I say, I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: just a person in turf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, exactly.
Speaker 2: Grass doesn't know if a man or a woman's mowing it.
Speaker 2: I just like Grass, and I'm taking care of it.
Speaker 1: In your work experience, and we'll get to your your
Speaker 1: paper and you know, and what it kind of uncovered.
Speaker 1: But in your personal experience, did you see any issues
Speaker 1: of gender that came up?
Speaker 2: So I definitely had some issues with gender, But I
Speaker 2: think a lot of times it's not what people expect.
Speaker 2: I don't really see an issue with any sort of
Speaker 2: physical limitations. And I think a lot of times there's
Speaker 2: a perception that, you know, people maybe tell women they
Speaker 2: can't do it. And at least for me, I think
Speaker 2: it's a real positive. I never had someone tell me
Speaker 2: I can't do it. But for me, one of the
Speaker 2: big issues has just been kind of inappropriate conduct by others. Again,
Speaker 2: it should be a professional setting. I'm here to work,
Speaker 2: I'm here to learn that just some external commentary that
Speaker 2: sometimes makes things really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can, you know, it's just that's that's the
Speaker 1: stuff that nobody wants to deal with it in a workplace, right.
Speaker 1: Did you you know were there other women on staff
Speaker 1: at you know, whether it be Augusta or at Country Scranton,
Speaker 1: and if not, what was that like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my internship with the Scranton Wilkesbury rail Riders,
Speaker 2: I was the first female ground screw member they had
Speaker 2: ever had, so that was really unique. My boss was
Speaker 2: really great. He always kind of pulled me aside and
Speaker 2: just said like, look, I don't want to undermine your abilities,
Speaker 2: but are you able to do this? And I appreciated that.
Speaker 2: You know, he didn't make a big deal out of
Speaker 2: me being different, but he always made sure you know
Speaker 2: that I was okay. I was really lucky at Country
Speaker 2: Club of Scranton. I think they had three other women
Speaker 2: on the crew. They weren't in leadership roles. I mean,
Speaker 2: they didn't have turf grass degrees, but it was really
Speaker 2: refreshing just to have other women out there, you know,
Speaker 2: Raken bunkers or whatever with me, and same thing with Augusta.
Speaker 2: As far as the volunteer crew, it's definitely male dominated,
Speaker 2: but there are other women, so I've never felt alone
Speaker 2: at either one of those locations.
Speaker 1: How was the you know, one of the things he
Speaker 1: hit on is just like the communication. I imagine like
Speaker 1: a lot of managers in the turf industry are used
Speaker 1: to only mail and like a lot of it's just
Speaker 1: like learning to communicate, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And he went out of his way even
Speaker 2: with small stuff. He sent me an email and said, hey,
Speaker 2: would you like female sized polos? Yes, I very much would.
Speaker 2: But it meant a lot to me that, you know,
Speaker 2: he just thought through smaller details to just try to
Speaker 2: make me more comfortable. And instead of putting me in
Speaker 2: some men's double XL polo that looked ridiculous, you know,
Speaker 2: he got the right thing to make me a part
Speaker 2: of the team and fit in and look like everyone else.
Speaker 2: And that that really means a lot to me to
Speaker 2: this day, how far he went to just make sure
Speaker 2: I had a good experience.
Speaker 1: Listeners of this show think of the turf industry like
Speaker 1: as just golf, but like you eliminate here, you know,
Speaker 1: taking care of baseball fields are part of this. What
Speaker 1: what in total does the turf industry and compass, because
Speaker 1: your paper and compass is more than just golf. What
Speaker 1: other industries that people would know are part of the
Speaker 1: turf industry tree?
Speaker 2: Sure so golf is definitely the biggest one. Certainly the
Speaker 2: highest percentage of people with turf degrees are working in golf.
Speaker 2: But athletic field, both at the professional level as well
Speaker 2: as collegiate, high school, municipal. We also have a lot
Speaker 2: of people who get turf degrees and go on to
Speaker 2: run landscaping crews. They get into equipment sales, you know,
Speaker 2: fertilizer sales, pesticide sales. There's also smaller things people don't
Speaker 2: think of. Some turf grass managers will do, you know,
Speaker 2: right of ways on highways. The airport that you fly
Speaker 2: into has a turf manager out there taking care of
Speaker 2: things the cemetery, so if you start ligging around, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of grass and takes a lot of people
Speaker 2: to take care of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I think your paper has said, like the
Speaker 1: fifth largest agri agricultural practice in the world, right yeah.
Speaker 2: Right behind corn and cotton then some of the big crops.
Speaker 2: Turf grass is the fifth largest.
Speaker 1: Personally, do you know, you know, when you finish your doctorate,
Speaker 1: where your what your most interesting going into. Are you
Speaker 1: looking to stay in academia, Are you looking to go
Speaker 1: get into golf or you know, something else.
Speaker 2: So I'm leaning more toward the industry side, probably more
Speaker 2: in pesticide development. But we're very blessed right now there's
Speaker 2: a lot of job opportunities in the golf and turf industry,
Speaker 2: so definitely have a lot of options to weigh out.
Speaker 1: Were there times where you understood why women might not
Speaker 1: stick with the turf profession.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and there I'll just admit there's a couple of
Speaker 2: times where I was kind of questioning, you know, is
Speaker 2: this right? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2: There's times that gets really hard and you feel like, hey,
Speaker 2: it's easier to walk away and do something else. But
Speaker 2: I've been really fortunate, you know that the whole women
Speaker 2: in turf, it's a movement now is happening, and there's
Speaker 2: more women slowly coming into the industry, so we're forming
Speaker 2: more of a support group. So I'm really hopeful, you know,
Speaker 2: for other women, incurrent women, that when they maybe have
Speaker 2: these moments of doubt, there's you know, more of a
Speaker 2: support group there to help them through, so that we're
Speaker 2: not losing people for reasons beyond their control.
Speaker 1: Now for a quick word from our sponsor, Toro. For
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Speaker 1: local distributors, both of whom are passionate about delivering turf
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Speaker 1: at Toro Golf on Twitter and reach out to your
Speaker 1: local Toro distributor today. Now back to Devin Carrol. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's Your paper is really well timed because I
Speaker 1: think one of the biggest topics that I hear about
Speaker 1: in traveling around the country is this labor short right,
Speaker 1: and turf is a industry that's really facing tough labor
Speaker 1: issues with with you know, just the cost of living
Speaker 1: going up. You know, it's going to increase the cost
Speaker 1: of maintenance. And then there's a smaller and smaller pool
Speaker 1: of labor. And here, you know, you lay out like
Speaker 1: you know, women are very underrepresented in the turf industry,
Speaker 1: and here is this another large pool of potential workers
Speaker 1: that are available to the industry. So your paper is
Speaker 1: called Women in Turf, A qualitative study examining how women
Speaker 1: have sustained their leadership role in the turf grass industry.
Speaker 1: Can you give listeners that haven't read it a kind
Speaker 1: of a cliff notes version of what the study was
Speaker 1: and some of the may the key fightings from the study.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as you mentioned, a lot of superintendents right
Speaker 2: now are reporting that the biggest issue facing them is labor.
Speaker 2: So yes, there are other issues, you know, with water
Speaker 2: supply or the supply chain, et cetera, but labor is
Speaker 2: really time and again what we're hearing is a big problem.
Speaker 2: So if you look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics,
Speaker 2: women make up fifty one percent of the US population,
Speaker 2: but only about two to four percent of employees working
Speaker 2: in turf. So to me, we're having a labor shortage,
Speaker 2: but we're not tapping into literally half of the population
Speaker 2: of able bodied workers. So I teamed up with a researcher,
Speaker 2: doctor Carrie Stevens at the University of Tennessee. She specializes
Speaker 2: in women at leadership research, and we reached out to
Speaker 2: thirteen women working in the turf bress industry as either
Speaker 2: golf course superintendents, assistant superintendents, field managers, assistant field managers
Speaker 2: actually from three different countries, and we interviewed them for
Speaker 2: between thirty to ninety minutes and just tried to get
Speaker 2: a feel for what got them into the industry. You know,
Speaker 2: what challenges have they faced, what do they think are
Speaker 2: opportunities for women? Just so we could get a really
Speaker 2: global scope of what the barriers and opportunities for women are.
Speaker 2: And I think we found some really interesting things that
Speaker 2: hopefully help with recruitment and retention in the future.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about some of those challenges. What are the
Speaker 1: unique challenges that are facing women in the turf industry.
Speaker 2: Sure, so the big one was family building, which I
Speaker 2: do want to note, you know, can also be really
Speaker 2: difficult for men in the industry. Working on a golf
Speaker 2: course in particular, requires you know, really long hours and
Speaker 2: it can be tough, especially in the summer. But women felt,
Speaker 2: in particular, you know, if you are trying to have children,
Speaker 2: it could be difficult as far as the labor that's involved,
Speaker 2: as well as you know, needing time off or maternity
Speaker 2: leave and whatnot. So building a family and having kind
Speaker 2: of intimate relationships was also hard, even with their own
Speaker 2: family members. They felt like, you know, especially during the
Speaker 2: peak season in the summer, it was just really hard
Speaker 2: to have a relationship with anyone, you know, their relationship
Speaker 2: was with the golf course. So especially for some of
Speaker 2: the younger women, they felt like it was difficult and
Speaker 2: they had to make sacrifices in that area.
Speaker 1: Yes, something I hadn't really thought of when until I
Speaker 1: read your paper about this is like, you know, in
Speaker 1: a way, the golf course is almost like a human
Speaker 1: being in in the fact that it's living. So you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: as as a superintendent, you are when you go to
Speaker 1: the golf course, you're almost like taking care of a kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it has to be watered and fed,
Speaker 2: just like a baby. So a lot of times it's
Speaker 2: hard for them to walk away.
Speaker 1: And I think, like this is something that as I'm
Speaker 1: a new dad, this is something that I've struggled with,
Speaker 1: like work and and parenthood, especially when you're when you're
Speaker 1: starting out, is not an easy balance, you know, like
Speaker 1: you know, because and then you also get the feel
Speaker 1: of like you want to get out and you want
Speaker 1: to get back to the to the baby. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just a you know, I think it's a it's
Speaker 1: a struggle across the board, you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: if if any anyone had any ideas for how that
Speaker 1: could be improved.
Speaker 2: Not too specifically, I mean, I think it goes with
Speaker 2: the whole movement kind of across the country right now
Speaker 2: of people wanting, you know, a built in maternity leave,
Speaker 2: which up until now golf's had so few women. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of clubs have never even considered that
Speaker 2: being something in a contract where, you know, if you
Speaker 2: want to recruit women to work on your golf course,
Speaker 2: that's something you know, you might need to think about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you think about like all the things
Speaker 1: like that. If you're you know, you might try and plan,
Speaker 1: if you're in a northern climate, you might try and plan,
Speaker 1: you know, having a baby in the winter. But that's
Speaker 1: not how that works, like right, And that's.
Speaker 2: Also not fair. Yeah, use the word fair.
Speaker 1: But yeah, exactly, Like it's just so much stress, you know,
Speaker 1: with that, And I can imagine how if you missed
Speaker 1: some of the most important part of the season, you know,
Speaker 1: just personally, you would feel like you're letting the team
Speaker 1: down in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And a lot of them said to the women
Speaker 2: that I interviewed that they did have kind of some
Speaker 2: self imposed reservations for that reason. You know, there were
Speaker 2: a couple of women who said they knew that their
Speaker 2: crews would understand, but they still felt like, you know,
Speaker 2: if they've spent time writing around on a golf cart
Speaker 2: telling people what to do and not joining the crew,
Speaker 2: you know that that just wasn't okay with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an interesting thing that I'd never even
Speaker 1: thought of with the pesticide stuff, you know, And that's
Speaker 1: the big thing is like, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: things you when I've learned a lot of being around
Speaker 1: cruise is like everybody is out there doing work, and
Speaker 1: that's where you get the most infectious team spirit is
Speaker 1: when everybody's doing it and you can whether or not
Speaker 1: everybody else feels like that personally, you can feel that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's on them, And they said, you know,
Speaker 2: it's definitely a balance of kind of coming to the
Speaker 2: terms with the situation themselves. But I do think there
Speaker 2: are some steps clubs might be able to take. You know,
Speaker 2: if you have an assistant superintendent just trying to rotate
Speaker 2: schedules to give everyone some time away from the course,
Speaker 2: you know, even if they're not having children, but to
Speaker 2: just allow everyone to have a better family relationship, whatever
Speaker 2: that family unit looks like for that person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what We're some other challenges that were presented.
Speaker 2: The two other big ones were overcoming stereotypes, which we
Speaker 2: kind of touched on a little bit already, and then
Speaker 2: the biggest one overall was misconduct from peers and you know,
Speaker 2: golfers and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And in terms of misconduct, that's just where you know,
Speaker 1: work and personal life mix, which you know, is ever
Speaker 1: really a great idea in the workplace.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard. It was. It was hard for
Speaker 2: me to listen to because I've had some of these
Speaker 2: experiences myself, but a lot of these women, you know,
Speaker 2: took it really serious. They worked really hard to get
Speaker 2: to where they are and then to have people, you know,
Speaker 2: discount you by making some remark that they absolutely would
Speaker 2: never say to their mother have said to a male
Speaker 2: in the same position is hard for them to hear.
Speaker 1: Are there. Did you uncover any similarities and personalities of
Speaker 1: women who work in the turf industry. Was there anything
Speaker 1: that you picked up on in terms of, you know,
Speaker 1: the women that have succeeded and gotten to leadership positions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was actually interesting. So, like I mentioned, we
Speaker 2: interviewed thirteen women. They came from three different countries, all
Speaker 2: sorts of different backgrounds, and they had strikingly similar responses
Speaker 2: for a lot of the questions I asked. First off,
Speaker 2: almost none of them started in the turf industry straight
Speaker 2: out of high school like I did. They almost all
Speaker 2: started in other careers and kind of found their path
Speaker 2: to turf later. So I think that was a key
Speaker 2: finding for US as far as recruitment, but as far
Speaker 2: as personality traits, they all had a similar leadership style
Speaker 2: where they were really into open, honest communication type relationships.
Speaker 2: They said they really made a point to talk to
Speaker 2: their crew to get to know everyone individually, which is
Speaker 2: something that it's been reported, you know, the male side
Speaker 2: of the industry is maybe not so in touch with.
Speaker 1: You know, in terms of the challenges. You know, what
Speaker 1: would be your thoughts on the ways that the turf
Speaker 1: industry could begin to lessen these challenges.
Speaker 2: Oh, that one's pretty hard because it takes you know,
Speaker 2: it's the bullet, the magic bullet right to me, The
Speaker 2: biggest thing is just being accepting and being professional. Not
Speaker 2: that it was ever okay, but even when I started
Speaker 2: the industry, there's very few women, and like I said,
Speaker 2: people kind of looked at me like I was a
Speaker 2: novelty and they always asked, well, why are you here?
Speaker 2: Do you work in sales or are you one of
Speaker 2: the secretaries, And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm at this conference because I'm in turf. So I think,
Speaker 2: you know, for golfers, people in the turf industry, if
Speaker 2: you see a woman working out on the course, assume
Speaker 2: she might be the superintendent and treat her with the
Speaker 2: same level of professionalism that you would treat anyone at
Speaker 2: their job. So I really think that's the biggest step,
Speaker 2: is just recognizing women are becoming more plentiful in these
Speaker 2: roles and we need to just treat them as you know,
Speaker 2: normal people working in turf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you hit on the growth in recent years, do
Speaker 1: you do you know, is there any statistics on in
Speaker 1: terms of the growth of women interf and where it's
Speaker 1: come from, say twenty or whatever however far back.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we don't really have those statistics since my study
Speaker 2: was kind of the first look at this. But I
Speaker 2: can just tell you, you know, from my little network
Speaker 2: of women when I started to now it's growing. I
Speaker 2: mean it's still small. We're only making up two to
Speaker 2: four percent of the industry, but I really feel like
Speaker 2: that's a lot from where we came from even ten
Speaker 2: years ago. So it'll be interesting to track, you know,
Speaker 2: over the next five, ten, twenty years. I think it'll
Speaker 2: be slow going, but any growth is positive movement.
Speaker 1: I imagine that, like social media is probably a big
Speaker 1: help to this, where you know, social media and just
Speaker 1: the connectedness of the of the world now is probably helping,
Speaker 1: you know, potentially drive this forward.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean that's how most of us women are
Speaker 2: kind of finding each other and building that support network.
Speaker 2: But also I mean you saw my paper on Twitter
Speaker 2: and now we're talking on this podcast. I think all
Speaker 2: of these sorts of oppportunities coming together is what's going
Speaker 2: to make the difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like you see the profession in general
Speaker 1: like moving forward so much because of the spread of information,
Speaker 1: the sharing of ideas on Twitter, Like you see superintendents
Speaker 1: in different turf professionals like, oh I have this problem.
Speaker 1: You know, has anybody encountered this? And you see thirty
Speaker 1: replies of people and it's a really cool thing for
Speaker 1: the turf industry, and it's funny because I think I
Speaker 1: stumbled across your paper by somebody liking it that I
Speaker 1: followed and is I was like immediately like, oh, I
Speaker 1: got to read this.
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, turf Twitter is a crazy world, but
Speaker 2: I give the industry a lot of credit that we
Speaker 2: all usually are willing to help each other. Like you said,
Speaker 2: people post pictures, ask for help. We're all really connected,
Speaker 2: and the turf faculty at all the different universities are
Speaker 2: really good about, you know, sharing research updates, trying to
Speaker 2: make sure everyone has the best information.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Are there ways in which you think the turf
Speaker 1: industry suffers because there are so few women in it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they definitely suffer from a labor perspective.
Speaker 2: But I think in general, what our country is really
Speaker 2: learning is that diversity of thought can be, you know,
Speaker 2: a good thing. A few women touched on the fact
Speaker 2: that their leadership style is they don't really care how
Speaker 2: things get done as long as the end result is
Speaker 2: what they asked for, And to me, that's very telling, right,
Speaker 2: they don't care which way you mow or whatever, as
Speaker 2: long as the end result is there. And that's a
Speaker 2: unique leadership style. But I think women can bring some
Speaker 2: of these innovative ideas to the golf course. I think
Speaker 2: women are also set up really well to be golf
Speaker 2: course superintendents. Like I mentioned earlier, they've got a really
Speaker 2: communicative leadership style. And also, I mean this is a fact,
Speaker 2: I think women tend to pay a lot more attention
Speaker 2: to detail than men. So when it comes to a course,
Speaker 2: you know, I would agree. You know a lot of
Speaker 2: times there's things on golf course maintenance that are very
Speaker 2: detail oriented, and I think women could be really good
Speaker 2: at picking up on some of that and just you know,
Speaker 2: kind of creating a different dynamic and how things might
Speaker 2: be done.
Speaker 1: I think you hit on such an important topics, Like
Speaker 1: you know, when you have people thinking about things from
Speaker 1: different perspectives, and you know, it yields a better workplace
Speaker 1: and you're going to find more solutions when you have
Speaker 1: more diverse ideas, and you know, diversity could come from
Speaker 1: a lot of different ways. And I think, like when
Speaker 1: I think about this a lot, is that potentially removing
Speaker 1: some of these challenges that women face could also increase
Speaker 1: the potential workforce available to turf outside of women. It's
Speaker 1: just you know, different people have different backgrounds.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think you know, any of the progress
Speaker 2: you make quote unquote for women is advancing the industry
Speaker 2: as a whole, because if you make it more inclusive
Speaker 2: for women, you're making it more inclusive, you know, for
Speaker 2: other groups who might want to work in turf. I
Speaker 2: know a golf course superintendent, mister Brent down sees the
Speaker 2: superintendent otter Crete Country Club. He's really made an effort
Speaker 2: to recruit high school students and it's funny. It's simple
Speaker 2: things like when they are irrigating with a hose, he
Speaker 2: lets the more flip flops. He lets them wear air
Speaker 2: pods while they're mowing greens. And I know that sounds silly,
Speaker 2: but be it male or female, if you want to
Speaker 2: attract high school students to work on your golf course,
Speaker 2: those are things that matter to them. So just redefining,
Speaker 2: you know, the things we're focusing on and how we're
Speaker 2: attracting people. It's time for change. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was with a super headed this week who say that,
Speaker 1: you know the problem with high school students is they
Speaker 1: don't want to work weekends and it's like, well, maybe
Speaker 1: you could plug in some teachers or some golf nuts
Speaker 1: that are looking for Monday playing privileges. There.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the thing, you know, talk up the perks,
Speaker 2: and I think people are learning trying to let people
Speaker 2: have a more flexible schedule, Like, yes, the golf course
Speaker 2: needs to be mote on weekends, but you know, maybe
Speaker 2: it's high schoolers come in every other weekend or whatever.
Speaker 2: So there's things we could do to just garner more
Speaker 2: people from whatever background.
Speaker 1: In your research, have you come across any other industries
Speaker 1: where you know, female involvement was low that it is
Speaker 1: soared in and has become you know, a much bigger
Speaker 1: part of that. Potentially turf could look at and mimic,
Speaker 1: you know, and maybe look at some of the strategies
Speaker 1: that we're used to, you know, promote women into the workforce.
Speaker 2: Sure, so right now we're kind of using agriculture as
Speaker 2: a whole as the model. Certainly agricultural disciplines are male dominated,
Speaker 2: but it's much more balanced than turf. The only disciplines
Speaker 2: I know of that are quite this low are you know, welding, plumbing,
Speaker 2: and electric construction. So it's hard to make those sorts
Speaker 2: of comparisons, but I think agriculture has made some big,
Speaker 2: big steps lately to get more women involved to help
Speaker 2: deal with some of the labor issues they're facing. So
Speaker 2: I cited a lot of similar works in my paper,
Speaker 2: but there are studies on women in ag and other
Speaker 2: sectors that I think we can kind of model and
Speaker 2: tie into to help with the turf issue.
Speaker 1: Do you know of any of the things that they've
Speaker 1: done to help with that labor shortage? With with you know,
Speaker 1: getting women involved.
Speaker 2: One of the biggest things is mentorship. They've made really
Speaker 2: focused efforts to create mentor programs, you know, match women
Speaker 2: with women in the industry, just so if they feel
Speaker 2: like they have someone there to kind of walk them through.
Speaker 2: So that's something we are doing in turf that one
Speaker 2: of the ladies from the Canadian Golf Course Superintendent Association
Speaker 2: has started the Women in Turf grass Mentorship program. So
Speaker 2: I think if we can start expanding that program, you know,
Speaker 2: bigger across the US, and not even just for women
Speaker 2: but also for men, that that could help with the recruitment.
Speaker 1: So, you know, in terms of you know, goals and
Speaker 1: different things, I'm not sure, you know, but where would
Speaker 1: you like to see you know, turf get to in
Speaker 1: the next five to ten years.
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, it's hard to put a number on it.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to sit here and pretend that we're
Speaker 2: going to be fifty to fifty. Yeah, but I mean
Speaker 2: for me, like we're at four percent, I would love
Speaker 2: to see that growth doubled in five to ten years.
Speaker 2: To me, that would be a success. And we're gaining
Speaker 2: more by the day, so I think it's achievable.
Speaker 1: How could people help, you know, whether they're in the
Speaker 1: turf industry, uh, whether they are at a club or
Speaker 1: a course, what what are types of things that that
Speaker 1: they can do to to promote this uh, this movement?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're really asking people to just support women.
Speaker 2: So I mean in the industry, that could be anything
Speaker 2: from saying hi at a conference to you know, nominating
Speaker 2: a qualified woman to win an award. I think out
Speaker 2: on the golf course kind of like we talked about earlier,
Speaker 2: just recognizing that you know, women belong there. If you
Speaker 2: see a female working on the crew and you suspect
Speaker 2: she's a superintendent, go up and say the greens are
Speaker 2: rolling nice, or you know, just give them that support
Speaker 2: and that validation that you recognize, you know that they're
Speaker 2: doing their job and they're doing it well, that's.
Speaker 1: Uh, that's great. Well, We hope you get back into golf,
Speaker 1: you know, so we can have more toughs in the future.
Speaker 1: But everybody should go check out your paper. How can
Speaker 1: people get in touch with you if they want to lend,
Speaker 1: you know, help with in any way or potentially you know,
Speaker 1: contact you about different you know something I don't know
Speaker 1: what somebody context.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the paper is open access, so you can
Speaker 2: access it for free if they just google the title
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier. And as far as contacting me, probably
Speaker 2: the easiest way. I am on Twitter. My handle is
Speaker 2: turf Girl twenty four, so look me up, shoot me
Speaker 2: a DM or whatever and I'd be happy to connect
Speaker 2: and chat more about this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how I got in touch, So you know,
Speaker 1: it's easy, and thank you so much, and I hope
Speaker 1: everybody goes and reads your paper. It was really a
Speaker 1: great read.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for letting me share.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll link to it in the podcast notes, so
Speaker 1: if you are looking for it, you can find it there.