1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Rip Current is the production of iHeart Podcasts. The views 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the host, 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: producers or parent company. Listener discretion is it fine? 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: This is a rip Current bonus episode. You don't need 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: to listen to follow the rip Current storyline, but it 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: provides more information, context and analysis to enhance the main 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 2: podcast enjoy. 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 3: As we worked on rip Current, it became apparent that 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: fifty years after the fact, not everyone was clear on 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 3: what exactly was Watergate. To get a basic overview of 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 3: the Watergate crimes and scandal and the repercussions that came 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 3: out of it, I talked with Kirk Dorsey, chair of 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 3: the History department at the University of New Hampshire. 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 4: My name is Kirk Dorsey. I'm the chair of the 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 4: History department at the University of New Hampshire. I teach 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 4: US foreign Policy and US fronmental history and I'm now 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 4: in my thirtieth year in the department. 18 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 3: Can you just tell us about Watergate? 19 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 4: So, first of all, Watergate, everybody has heard of it 20 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 4: at some level, because every scandal is a gate. Now 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,639 Speaker 4: because of that to flight Gate with their New England 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 4: Patriots fans here I probably just turned all you off 23 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 4: by mentioned to flight Gate, but everything is Gate. And 24 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 4: it's interesting because the Watergate actually was a building. It 25 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 4: was a building that was still a hotel. You can 26 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,919 Speaker 4: make a reservation I think still in the Watergate Hotel, 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 4: but it also had offices, and the Watergate building had 28 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 4: the offices of the Democratic National Committee. In nineteen seventy 29 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 4: two that the people who worked for the Nixon re 30 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 4: election campaign, who worked in the Nixon White House as well, 31 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 4: broke into the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in 32 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 4: the Watergate Hotel and they actually were caught by a 33 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 4: security guard in the summer of nineteen seventy two, but 34 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 4: it looked like just a run of the mill burglary. 35 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 4: So when we talk about Watergate, there is this incident 36 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 4: of a break in at the hotel to go after 37 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 4: the Democrats campaign strategy for nineteen seventy two, which apparently 38 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 4: was to lose as badly as possible since only won 39 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 4: one state. But then it spiraled out into all these 40 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 4: other things that the Nixon administration was doing that were secret, 41 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 4: So that Watergate is much more than just the break in. 42 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 3: Can you kind of talk about the scope of the 43 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: things that have sort of collectively been under the Watergate banner. 44 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, So it really started in nineteen seventy one. So 45 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 4: there was a guy named Daniel Ellsberg who released a 46 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 4: collection of documents put together by the Defense Department that 47 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 4: were known as the Pentagon Papers. And the Pentagon Papers 48 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 4: were an attempt by the Defense Department to understand how 49 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 4: the United States had gotten into the Vietnam War, which 50 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 4: was complete mass in nineteen seventy one, and they were secret, 51 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 4: but Ellsberg thought the America people deserved to know what 52 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 4: the US government had done way back in the forties, fifties, 53 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 4: and sixties, so he leaked the Pentagon Papers. They got 54 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 4: a lot of publication. There were court cases about whether 55 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 4: or not the newspapers were allowed to publish them. And Nixon, 56 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 4: who was president at the time, could have said, well, 57 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 4: these really embarrassed my predecessors. I'll just let it go. 58 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 4: But he was really paranoid about leaks, and he was 59 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 4: worried that things in the Nixon administration would also leak. 60 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 4: So some of his aides assembled a group of covert operatives, 61 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 4: guys who are known to history like Gee Gordon Liddy, 62 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 4: who had a radio show for a long time Chuck Coulson, 63 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 4: who later went on to become a born again preacher. 64 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 4: And these guys tried to make Elsberg's life miserable. They 65 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 4: broke into his psychiatrist's office to steal his files, things 66 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 4: like that, And apparently one of these guys relatives said well, 67 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 4: what are you doing in the White House, And to 68 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: cover themselves, they said were plumbers because their job was 69 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 4: to fix leaks, and so they became known as the 70 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 4: White House plumbers. And you know, the problem with once 71 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 4: you hire plumbers is you can't really fire them without 72 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 4: them knowing things. So the administration kept them around, and 73 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 4: they were the ones who did the break in at 74 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 4: the Watergate hotel, for instance. But as we discovered over 75 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 4: the course of the next sort of two years after 76 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy two, so the Nixon administration was not just 77 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 4: using the plumbers to go after its enemies. They were 78 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 4: using the regular people in government. So John Dean, who's 79 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 4: a regular on CNN now, is a legal expert on 80 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: presidential corruption. He's there because he was a young lawyer 81 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 4: in the Nixon White House. One of his jobs was 82 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 4: to compose a list of enemies of the Nixon administration, 83 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 4: which included such hard hitting political figures as Joe Namath 84 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 4: and Paul Newman, because they were popular people who were 85 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 4: anti Nixon. And it wasn't just to compile a list. 86 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 4: It was, for instance, to say to the IRS audit 87 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 4: our enemies. Use the powers of the federal government, the IRS, 88 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 4: the FBI, and even the CIA to go after people 89 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 4: in the domestic sphere who were potentially enemies of the 90 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 4: Nixon administration. So what started as a break in is 91 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 4: the investigations compounded. They discovered there was a lot more 92 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 4: to it than just a bunch of second rate burglars 93 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 4: getting caught trying to steal Georgian governor's campaign secrets. 94 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 3: So then how does this start to unravel? 95 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 4: So it starts unravel because they're a journalists who are 96 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 4: just trying to sort out, like there's something that doesn't 97 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 4: smell right. And as they began asking questions, there's a 98 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 4: guy named Mark Felt who worked for the FBI, who 99 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 4: was aware of what was going on, and he becomes 100 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 4: a secret source, takes on the unfortunate name of Deep 101 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 4: Throat after a pornographic film that was poker at the time, 102 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 4: and he begins telling Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein of 103 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 4: the Washington Post details and pieces of information that are 104 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 4: not publicly known, and that leads them to continue to 105 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 4: ask questions over the course of nineteen seventy two. So 106 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 4: the break in in seventy two at first is thought 107 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 4: just to be some random burglars looking for stuff that 108 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 4: they could steal, so it doesn't affect the seventy two 109 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 4: election at all, and Nixon wins in a landslide. But 110 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 4: they keep asking questions into nineteen seventy three, and they 111 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: begin to reveal that the people who were involved in 112 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 4: the burglary actually have connections back to the White House, 113 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 4: and once they see that, that's when more journalists pile on, 114 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 4: and most importantly, Congress decides to start holding hearings to 115 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 4: find out what was going on. And Nixon did a 116 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 4: pretty good job for nineteen seventy three of fending off 117 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 4: allegations by saying I didn't know about any of this. 118 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 4: This was all people underneath me doing these things, until 119 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 4: in late nineteen seventy three one of his aides, justin testifying, 120 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 4: accidentally says, well, you know, the president was taping all 121 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 4: the conversations in the White House and nobody knew that 122 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 4: outside the White House. And this is a guy named 123 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 4: Butterfield who says this. When he says it, Congress are like, Okay, 124 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 4: we need these tapes. And that becomes a source of 125 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 4: a huge fight between Nixon and Congress over presidential immunity. Basically, 126 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 4: does the president have the right to hang onto these 127 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 4: things as the president or are these government documents to 128 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 4: serviation able to see? And eventually the Supreme Court rules 129 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 4: that the tapes have to be turned over, and that's 130 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 4: really when that leads to Nixon recognizing that he is 131 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 4: on tape authorizing a lot of these illegal acts, well 132 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 4: beyond what happened in the Watergate hotel, and that he's 133 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 4: doomed once these tapes are out, there's no way he 134 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 4: can stay in power. And not to get two presentists. 135 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 4: But one of the big differences between then and now 136 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 4: is that there were key Republican senators who turned against him. 137 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 4: Howard Baker, who was a Tennessee Republican who was an 138 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 4: upstanding a citizen. He worked for the Reagan administration. He 139 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 4: was the person who famously said, what did the president 140 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 4: know and when did he know it? And asking that 141 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 4: question coming from the Republican side. Was an indication that 142 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 4: there were Republican legislators in nineteen seventy three and then 143 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 4: into seventy four who were starting to give up on Nixon. 144 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 4: They thought he had crossed too many lines. 145 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: What is he on tape, sort of authorizing. 146 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 4: Using federal agencies to go after his enemies, knowing about 147 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 4: the break in that he claimed he knew nothing about 148 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 4: in the Watergate hotel. And then there's all the other 149 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 4: stuff that he was famous for, you know, some of 150 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 4: the just incredibly inflammatory things he said, even you know, 151 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 4: these incredibly anti Semitic things he was saying to Henry Kissinger, 152 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 4: his Jewish National security advisor. So the tapes were a 153 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 4: combination of direct evidence that Nixon knew that things were 154 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 4: being done that were illegal, not just the sort of 155 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 4: low level petty but also using agencies in the way 156 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 4: they weren't supposed to be used. But then also that 157 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 4: he was a really awful person on top of it. 158 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 4: So they were embarrassing, and you know, nineteen seventy five 159 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 4: Congress held hearings on the CIA because of these tapes, 160 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 4: because it was clear that Nixon had used the CIA. 161 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 4: These are the Church Committee hearings and named after a 162 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 4: senator from Idaho, Frank Church. And that's, for instance, where 163 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 4: we learned all these things about the efforts to assassinate 164 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 4: Fidel Castro in the early sixties. All sorts of things 165 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 4: came out of these Church Committee hearings. So our current 166 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 4: vision of the CIA is a bunch of you know, 167 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 4: sort of semi rogue guys go around trying to execute people. 168 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 4: That all comes out of the Church Committee hearings, because 169 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 4: most of that was secret before nineteen seventy five. More 170 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 4: than anything, what it does is damage this idea that 171 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 4: the federal government is basically telling you the truth most 172 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 4: of the time, because knowledge did we learn from the 173 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 4: Pentagon papers that they lied repeatedly about the war. But 174 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 4: then we have all these hearings, we find out that 175 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 4: Nixon and his people were lying about the ways the 176 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 4: federal government was being used. 177 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about how Nixon tried 178 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: to serve as presidency. 179 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 4: Basically, the Attorney General appointed a special council to investigate 180 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 4: what the Watergate crimes and all the assembled other crimes were, 181 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 4: and Nixon got really frustrated that this guy was getting 182 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 4: closer and closer to getting the truth out about him. 183 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 4: So he ordered his attorney general to fire him, and 184 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: the Attorney Onnor resigned and then there was a second 185 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 4: command who also resigned, in the person in the Justice 186 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 4: Department who ultimately agreed to fire Cox. The special investigator 187 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 4: was Robert Bork. Bork would come back in the nineteen 188 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: eighties as a nominee for the Supreme Court, and he 189 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 4: was the first of this run of really controversial Supreme 190 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 4: Court nominations, and Bork ended up getting I did not 191 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 4: obviously get a seat on the Supreme Court. So Nixon 192 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 4: really fought hard in the courts to protect his rights 193 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 4: basically as president, to do what he wanted. In fact, 194 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: he said after he left office at one point something 195 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 4: to the extent of, if the president does it, it's 196 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 4: legal again. You know, the echoes to today are really 197 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 4: really powerful. That Nixon's base take on the matter was 198 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 4: he could do whatever he wanted and if he wanted 199 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 4: to take people, if he wanted to give orders as president, 200 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 4: he could do those things, and that Congress had no 201 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 4: power to oversee him. Of course, Congress had the power 202 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 4: to impeach him. And what ultimately drove him from office 203 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 4: was as these tapes were released, he recognized that there 204 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 4: were not enough Republicans in the Senate who would vote 205 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 4: to acquit him, that impeachment was going to go through. 206 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 4: The Democrats controlled both houses, but they didn't have a 207 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: two thirds majority in the Senate. So he recognized that 208 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 4: he was going to lose a vote in the Senate, 209 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 4: he would be impeached to remove from office. So he 210 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 4: decided better to resign on his own terms than to 211 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 4: be impeached. This is one of the things that's really remarkable, 212 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 4: I mean, certainly about the Republican Party today. We've never 213 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 4: had a party that's been so much in one person's pocket. 214 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 4: Even when Reagan was running in nineteen eighty and eighty four, 215 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 4: there were people in the party who thought he was 216 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 4: too conservative and who argued against him. His own vice 217 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 4: president H. W. Bush had called Reagan's economic policy voodoo economics. 218 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 4: And then as soon as he gets the nomination eighty eight, 219 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 4: tries to distance himself from some of Bagan's policies. And 220 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 4: I was reading up on Jerald Ford's voting record when 221 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 4: he was in Congress in the nineteen sixties. He voted 222 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: for all the Civil Rights Acts as a Republican, and 223 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 4: he voted for the Voting Rights Act in nineteen sixty five, 224 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 4: and there were a lot of Democrats who voted against 225 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 4: those bills. So the ways in which the parties had 226 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 4: these sort of strange overlaps that seem different to us 227 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 4: now is really a powerful thing. So the Southern Democrats 228 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 4: basically all became Republicans. I think about a guy like 229 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 4: Phil Graham, who was a long time Democratic centator, and 230 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 4: John Tower, both of them from Texas, who switched parties 231 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 4: and became Republicans in the nineteen eighties. And that was 232 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 4: a pretty common thing in the nineteen eighties for these 233 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 4: Southern Democrats to become Republicans. 234 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 3: So can you talk a little bit about Ford and 235 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: Nixon and how that all kind of played out. 236 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 4: So Ford is a really interesting character. I mean, he 237 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 4: was our football player at Michigan. He was a Yale 238 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 4: law grad. He got elected to Congress in nineteen forty 239 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 4: eight after serving in the Navy honorably in World War Two. Interestingly, 240 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 4: nineteen forty six saw both Nixon and Kennedy get elected 241 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 4: after serving in the Navy in World War Two. So 242 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 4: there was this sort of influx of veterans in the forties, 243 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 4: and then Ford spent twenty five years climbing the ranks 244 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 4: in Congress out of the district of Michigan. He was 245 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 4: the House Minority leader in nineteen seventy three, and his 246 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 4: dream was to someday be Speaker of the House. When 247 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 4: it didn't look like Republicans whatever, we'd get to take 248 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 4: control of the House. And in seventy three Richard Nixon 249 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 4: lost his vice president to a completely different scandal. So 250 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 4: his vice president was a guy named Spiro Agnew from Maryland, 251 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 4: and Nixon and Agnew ran in nineteen sixty eight. One 252 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 4: of their central campaign planks was law and order because 253 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 4: Agnew had helped keep order in nineteen sixty eight in 254 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 4: nineteen sixty seven after some of the urban riots, particularly 255 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 4: after King's assassination in April sixty eight, so they were 256 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 4: running on this law and order campaign, and investigators in 257 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: Maryland eventually uncovered that Governor Agnew had been taking kickbacks 258 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 4: to give contracts to various supporters, so he was a 259 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 4: classic bribery scheme. So Agnew was forced to resign because 260 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 4: it was obviously a drag on Nixon to have it 261 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 4: somebody who was almost as corupt as he was in 262 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 4: the White House, and they had to find somebody who 263 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 4: could help the Republican Party and try to restore some 264 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 4: of the image of the Republican Party in the middle 265 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 4: of nineteen seventy three, and Gerald Ford was exactly the guy. 266 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 4: He had never done anything con to recy in his life. 267 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 4: He had managed to annoy Lyndon Johnson, which is probably 268 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 4: something on his side. Linda Johnson said something like he 269 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 4: was too dumb to chew gum and walk at the 270 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 4: same time. So Lynda Johnson didn't like him. So Ford 271 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 4: was seen as a guy without a lot of ambition, 272 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 4: but very clean, and he would bring some credit back 273 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 4: to the Nixon administration. And of course, shortly after that, 274 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: about a year later, it was when Nixon finally found 275 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 4: that he had to resign, and so Jared Ford found 276 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 4: himself President of the United States after never having gotten 277 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 4: a vote outside his district in Michigan. The thing about 278 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 4: Ford is because he was unsullied by any sort of corruption, 279 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 4: and he was a negotiator in Congress. He wasn't a 280 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 4: legislation writer. He was a guy who sort of brought 281 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 4: people together. I think there was a sense that Ford 282 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 4: also could be a guy who could heal some of 283 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: the divisions if for some reason Nick sent to leave office. 284 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 4: You know, and when Ford was appointed in nineteen seventy three, 285 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 4: you know, the Watergate scandal was brewing enough that you know, 286 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 4: reasonable people could see that Nixon might not serve out 287 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 4: his whole second term. That would not you know, that 288 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 4: wouldn't have been a surprise to anybody. And you know, 289 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 4: both the Senate and the House had to vote to 290 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 4: confirm him, and they voted overwhelmingly to confirm him. So 291 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 4: I understand Haldeman's position, But I think also the people 292 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 4: in Congress recognized and Gerald Ford they had a guy 293 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 4: who they could trust the presidency to if Nixon got 294 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: forced out of office, which was plausible in the summer 295 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 4: of nineteen seventy three. 296 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,479 Speaker 3: So about Ford's pardoning of Nixon. 297 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the great question about Ford's legacy. So 298 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 4: Nixon resigned in August ninth, nineteen seventy four, and al 299 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 4: Hague had called Ford about a week in advance and 300 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 4: said Nixon's going down. Basically, get ready to get sworn in, 301 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 4: because it could happen anytime. So Ford had maybe a 302 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 4: week's notice that it was coming, and he made a 303 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 4: decision in September, so, about a month after he had 304 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 4: been in power, to issue a formal pardon for any 305 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 4: crimes that Richard Nixon might have committed, which made sure 306 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 4: that Nixon wouldn't be tried in any court. And Nixon 307 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 4: accepted the pardon, and there was a huge explosion about 308 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 4: the pardon because people thought that maybe Nixon and Ford 309 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 4: had made some sort of deal that, for instance, maybe 310 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 4: Nixon agreed to step down on the understand that Ford 311 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: would pardon him, or maybe even further back than that 312 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 4: Nixon chose Ford in nineteen seventy three, because that's really 313 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 4: when Nixon had some bargaining power and if he'd be 314 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 4: Ford would pardon him for something. I think one of 315 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 4: the things that fuels the pardon conspiracy theory is that 316 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 4: Ford was in fact on the Warren Commission, which draws 317 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 4: a lot of conspiracy theorists about what he might have 318 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 4: known and what he might have covered up he might 319 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: have been capable of it. So I don't think there 320 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 4: was any evidence I think Ford made of a conspiracy. 321 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 4: I think Ford just made a decision that putting Richard 322 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 4: Nixon on trial for one thing was going to be 323 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 4: a zoo that the things that got revealed in a 324 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 4: trial might be pretty damaging for the nation as a whole, 325 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 4: and pretty divisive for the nation as a whole. You know, 326 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 4: we have to remember that Nixon stood for election on 327 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 4: a national ticket five times, twice as vice president, three 328 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 4: times as president. I mean, I remember my dad saying 329 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 4: he was so disappointed Nixon because he voted for him 330 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 4: five times, and then he had to find out that 331 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 4: Nixon was this guy. I think there were a lot 332 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 4: of people like that. You know, the seventy two election, 333 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 4: Nixon got sixty percent of the vote, and there were 334 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 4: still sizeable numbers of people who were like, wow, everybody 335 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 4: does it, you know, and Nixon shouldn't have to leave office. 336 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 4: So I think Ford made the decision that it was 337 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 4: the right thing to do, even if it was a 338 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 4: politically damaging for him, because you know, once you're in 339 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 4: the White House, you can't help but think, well, maybe 340 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 4: I'll run for president in nineteen seventy six. And I 341 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 4: don't know how soon he decided that. I suspect it 342 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 4: was about August tenth, about the day after he got 343 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 4: into the White House. I think he started thinking I 344 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 4: could be president too, and I'm gonna stick around. So 345 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 4: he made the decision to parton Nixon. There were never 346 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 4: any trials. When Nixon got to write his memoirs and 347 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 4: that it explained what he did, he got to get 348 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,239 Speaker 4: interviewed by David Frost and other people and explained his 349 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 4: what he did and why he did it without the 350 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 4: power of potential being charged with perjury. And so, you know, 351 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 4: this is one of those great what ifs. Should Ford 352 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 4: have let Nixon go on trial, I think generally, while 353 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 4: people at the time were pretty upset about it, most people, 354 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 4: I think over time the decision to pardon Nixon probably 355 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 4: his worked out as the less bad of those two choices, because, 356 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 4: in part, in some ways, if you accept a part 357 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 4: and you're sort of acknowledging that you were guilty and 358 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 4: you're taking it. You know, Nixon never did that directly, 359 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 4: but I think there was something to that. Having Nixon 360 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 4: accept the pardon was his way of saying, yes, I 361 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,959 Speaker 4: did the wrong things, and now I'll go back. And 362 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 4: I think also the pardon weirdly gave Nixon the opportunity 363 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 4: to do this elder statesman thing, which is still kind 364 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 4: of remarkable to me that not long after that, people 365 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 4: were going to Richard Nixon for commentary on foreign policy 366 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 4: in particular, And you know, it was okay for presidents 367 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 4: to consult with Richard Nixon to talk about foreign policy 368 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 4: because most of the scandals were seen to be domestic 369 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 4: and not foreign policy. So Nixon managed to retain this 370 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 4: elder statesman quality. And you know, I remember when he died, 371 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 4: people were saying, well, you know, you know, we shouldn't 372 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 4: be so harsh on Nixon. Everybody did those things, And 373 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 4: you know, the reality is everybody didn't do those things. 374 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 4: There were some you know, Johnson did some bad things, 375 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 4: but nothing on the level that Nixon did them. 376 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: So how about legacy of Watergate? What do you think 377 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 3: kind of survives from that? 378 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 4: Well? What survives? Actually, it's interesting because for many years 379 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 4: there were all these reforms in government that Congress passed. 380 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 4: For instance, campaign finance reform was one of the big ones. 381 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 4: All the rules about how much money could give, who 382 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 4: could give it, how it had to be disclosed. Because 383 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 4: one of the things that came out was that the 384 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 4: Nixon campaign team was just getting scads of cash from 385 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 4: corporations that was not being reported. They were using that 386 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 4: cash to pay the plumbers. You know, there's a lot 387 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 4: of stuff below board. So in some ways, the conviction 388 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 4: of Donald Trump in New York State was a post 389 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 4: Watergate thing because he was taking campaign donations to cover 390 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 4: up the I don't want to call it an affair 391 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 4: with Stormy Daniels, that meeting with Stormy Daniels, that brief interaction. 392 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 4: So there's that. There was also, I think this larger 393 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 4: sense in the public between the Pentagon papers and Watergate 394 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 4: that the government was just repeatedly lying and couldn't be trusted. 395 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 4: And I think we talked about this with your previous podcast. 396 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 4: You know, there's that Pew poll like do you trust 397 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 4: the federal government to do the right thing? Most of 398 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 4: the time? And in the early sixties was like eighty 399 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 4: percent of the American people said that. By the early eighties, 400 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 4: it's down to twenty percent. So ironically, one of the 401 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 4: beneficiaries of all this, well two beneficiaries. First was Jimmy 402 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 4: car in nineteen seventy six, who had almost no experience, 403 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 4: I mean, not that it seems to matter about experience anymore, 404 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 4: but he had been the governor of Georgia, and he 405 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 4: parlayed that into his electoral victory over Ford, largely by saying, 406 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 4: I will never lie to you. And there was a 407 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 4: sense that we want people who are honest but maybe 408 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 4: more competent than Gerald Ford. And Carter was a nuclear 409 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 4: engineer and he was a farmer and all these things. 410 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 4: So Carter was definitely a post Watergate president. I don't 411 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 4: think he could have won under other circumstances, and I 412 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: think it equally Reagan is a post Watergate president with 413 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 4: a very different set of policies. But what really propelled 414 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 4: Reagan to victory was saying, basically, government is not the 415 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 4: solution to the problem. Government is a problem. Well, it's 416 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 4: a lot easier to believe that after you've read the 417 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 4: Pentagon papers or read about what Nixon did with the 418 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 4: IRS and the CIA and the FBI, and you started saying, well, 419 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 4: you know, I can't trust any of these people, so 420 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 4: maybe a smaller government is a good thing. Of course, 421 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 4: the government didn't get smaller, kept getting bigger, but in 422 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 4: terms of the rhetoric, and then I think there was 423 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 4: just a general sense that our whole institutions were really 424 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 4: shaky right before for the bi centennial, because the whole 425 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy six was like, we're going to celebrate two 426 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 4: hundred years of American independence, But it was impossible to 427 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 4: escape the fact that we had just appointed a guy 428 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 4: from Michigan to be president who, you know, really wasn't 429 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 4: that qualified to be president. I think Ford turned out 430 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 4: to be a pretty good president, but we're talking about 431 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 4: our election. These choices really good? Well, Ford and Carter 432 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 4: didn't look like, you know, nineteen twelve, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, 433 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 4: William Howard Taft. It looked like, well, this is the 434 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 4: best we can do, and that sense of, you know, 435 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 4: does the political system unraveling? And we just you know, 436 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 4: we're not getting the best anymore. We can either have 437 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 4: Richard Nixon and Lindon Johnson, who are effective but you know, 438 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 4: breaking the law left and right, or we can get 439 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 4: Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter, who seemed pretty honest, but 440 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 4: they can't get anything done. So is there some sort 441 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 4: of resolution to that? And I think a lot of 442 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 4: our skepticism about the American political system comes out of Watergate. 443 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 4: So there's some legal changes, but also more than anything, 444 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 4: cultural changes. 445 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: So is there anything that we haven't touched on that 446 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 3: you think is particularly important or interesting for people to 447 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 3: know about. 448 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 4: I guess the one other thing about all this that 449 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 4: sometimes gets overlooked is that, you know, Nixon gets his 450 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: narrow election victory in nineteen sixty eight because of the 451 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 4: Vietnam War, and all this is going on while the 452 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 4: Vietnam War is going on. So Nixon wins in sixty eight. 453 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 4: Probably he helped sink the nineteen sixty eight piece negotiations that 454 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 4: Lyndon Johnson was trying to pull off in parts so 455 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 4: he could say he would solve the problem. Although that's 456 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 4: kind of stupid, like it'd be better off if Johnson 457 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 4: solved the war, then he could have done the aftermath. 458 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 4: But it certainly seems like Nixon sabotage that. And you know, 459 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 4: he ran on this campaign of trying to end the 460 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 4: Vietnam War, but he didn't, and if anything, the depending 461 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 4: on papers which are about the war brought him down. 462 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 4: And then he was completely distracted in nineteen seventy two 463 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 4: seventy three, when the war in Vietnam was coming to 464 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 4: its end, and also there was the war in the 465 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 4: Middle East in nineteen seventy three, and you know, there 466 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 4: was a story circulating for a long time. The Defense Secretary, 467 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 4: James Slessinger and the Secretary of State, who by that 468 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 4: point was Henry Kisten, had made a deal that one 469 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 4: of them would always be in Washington in nineteen seventy 470 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,239 Speaker 4: three because Nixon was so out of control that he 471 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 4: was drinking too much, he was constantly railing about his enemies, 472 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 4: and they were worried that he would start a war 473 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 4: trying to you know, change the subjects from Watergate. Now, 474 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 4: Schlessinger later denied that that was the case, but Kissinger 475 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 4: never denied it. And what's also clear is that it 476 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 4: does appear that one of them was always in Washington 477 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 4: in that time period, and that they also gave military 478 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 4: commanders orders not to do anything without consulting with one 479 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: of them to make sure that it wasn't just Nixon 480 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 4: going off the rails. You know, that's what we were 481 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 4: worried about. In January of twenty twenty one, you would 482 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 4: Mark Milly basically said he was worried that Trump would 483 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 4: try to start a war with Iran to distract from 484 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 4: the election problem. And Mark Miller was reaching out to 485 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 4: the Chinese to try to say to them, look, we're 486 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 4: not going to start anything, you know, don't overreact, so 487 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 4: you know, in some ways, it was the Vietnam War 488 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 4: that destroyed Richard Nixon and made John Ford's presidency popular, 489 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 4: and then Ford got left with the disaster that was 490 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: the end of the Vietnam War. And while this isn't 491 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 4: directly related to Watergate, it is pretty fascinating. One of 492 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 4: my students wrote her book or dissertation that was published 493 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 4: about human rights policy between the US and Socialist Republic 494 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 4: of Vietnam, and one of the things she discovered in 495 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 4: the archives was that it was Gerald Ford more than 496 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 4: anybody who pushed to save the refugees at South Vietnam, 497 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 4: and that Kissinger was doubtful about it, but Ford said, 498 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 4: we owe these people. We need to get as many 499 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 4: out of South Vietnam as possible if they want to 500 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 4: get out to the United States. And it wouldn't have 501 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 4: happened without him. And actually he was more of a 502 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,959 Speaker 4: defender of South Vietnamese human rights and Jimmy Carter, and 503 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 4: that he fought hard, and that the reason why they're 504 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 4: such a huge South Vietnamese community in the United States 505 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 4: is that Ford said, we've got a moral obligation. It's 506 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 4: pretty clear that he was a policy guy as president 507 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 4: and did some very important things that maybe Nixon wouldn't 508 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 4: have done. 509 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 3: Thank you to Kirk Dorsey, chair of the History Department 510 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: at the University of New Hampshire. I'm Toby Ball. For 511 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 512 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite show. For more 513 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 3: information on rip Current, visit the show website at ripcurrentpod 514 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: dot com.