1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson, and today 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna do something a little bit new, at least 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: new since Tracy and I have been on the podcast. 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: Past hosts have featured interviews with people with interesting historical 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: stories to tell, but this is our first go round 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: on this one. So we mentioned not long ago that 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: we wanted to cover a few museums and talk about 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: their history, and today we're sharing the first of a 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: two parter. It's an interview with Dr Annie Polland of 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: the Lower east Side Tenement Museum. And this particular subject 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: came up not long after we had mentioned during a 14 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: recording that we wanted to start telling stories about museums 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: at some point, and so we got really excited about 16 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: this amazingly layered history to the Tenement Museum and the 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: building there, as well as it's incredible mission to preserve 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: and present the stories of immigrants that in many ways 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: sort of tell the story of the US as an 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: immigrant nation. So we're going to hop right into that interview. 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: So today we have with us Dr Annie Pollen, who 22 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: is the senior vice president for Programs and Education at 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: the Lower east Side Tenement Museum. Did I get all 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: that correct? Yeah? You get perfect? Uh. And this is 25 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: such an incredibly cool museum space with such a really 26 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: uh fabulous sort of history of its own, and there 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: are so many wonderful stories connected to it that we're 28 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: just gonna jump right in and kind of get the 29 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: full scoop on this really wonderful historical landmark. So first off, Annie, 30 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: will you tell us a little bit about yourself and 31 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: how you ended up in your position at the Tenement Museum. Sure? Um, 32 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: I think what brought me here with what brought me 33 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: to New York because I came to New York initially 34 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: to study history and that I got my pH d 35 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: in history at Columbia University. And while I was there 36 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: working on my coursework and my dissertation, I got a 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: job with a company called Big Onion Walking Tours, which 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: is a wonderful company that organizes historical walking tours of 39 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: many New York neighborhoods. So I started working for that company, 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: and I gave the first assignment that I had was 41 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: to work on the Lower east Side tour, and it 42 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: was actually run in conjunction with the Lower east Side 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: Tournament Museum. So I came and at this point it 44 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: was like the late nineties, and I came down to 45 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: give a walking tour UM. And I'm actually looking right 46 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: now at the window at the corner of where I started, 47 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: which was right across the street from the Tonament Museum. 48 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: And it was such a wonderful experience to walk through 49 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: the city UM, to look at the buildings and be 50 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: able to tell their history. And I think that combination 51 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: of history, the built environment, and the enthusiasm of the 52 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: people on the tour made me realize how important public 53 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: history was. So I finished my dissertation and I enjoyed 54 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: that research, but knew that what I really wanted to 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: do is, rather than work in an academic setting, work 56 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: in a place where history could come to life, and 57 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: in a place where I could kind of share that 58 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: history with many more people than I would if I 59 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: had stayed in an academic check. The Laur east Side 60 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: Tournament Museum, of course, is a perfect place to do 61 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: that because the history is so rich, it's so layered, 62 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: it works off the built environment, and UM it attracts 63 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: so many people from all around the country, in the world, 64 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: so it's really the perfect place for me in many ways. 65 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: So history is like in your heart, that's your whole background. Yeah, yes, exactly, 66 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: love it. Uh. And the museum itself is really the 67 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: brainchild of one woman, although many hands have of course 68 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: gone into making it sort of the incredible resource it 69 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: is today. But could you tell us a little bit 70 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: about Ruth Abram and how she came to develop this concept? Well? Sure, 71 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean what I'm what I'll probably you is probably 72 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: what other people you know would be able to tell 73 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: you too. I wasn't here when the museum got started 74 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: in ninety eight eight, so what I'm telling you in 75 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: some ways is the you know, the founding story that 76 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: I've been told. Um. But she really was, really is 77 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: a remarkable woman. And she actually in a colleague, Anita Jacobson, 78 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: where the two women that we consider the founders of 79 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: the museum. Um, they were working together and they were 80 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: looking for a tenement to tell the story of immigration, 81 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: which in and of itself was an absolutely radical thing 82 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: to do, right to say that an old building that 83 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: you know, people were abandoning, that should be the site 84 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: to study history. You know, when most people are studying 85 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: history in huge museums, or they're studying history in a 86 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: president's former home or an industrialist former former home. To 87 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: say that an old tenement is a site of history, 88 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: it was a radical thing. So they had this radical 89 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: idea and they were looking for a tenement and and 90 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: I think the story goes that they had almost given 91 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: up hope because the tenements they found were already rehabbed 92 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: or they were um. They had changed so much over time. 93 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: And they were looking at that point for storefront to 94 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: start telling the story. And they went to this building 95 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: to see about renting a storefront, and this was ninety 96 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: seven Orchard Streets, And when they asked to use the restroom, 97 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: they saw that the restroom was in the hall um 98 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: and it was assigned to them that the building hadn't 99 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: been updated since the nineteen o one housing law. So 100 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: they realized that they had this real time capsule at 101 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: place where they could tell many layers and many um 102 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: elements of the immigrant story. So that's the kind of 103 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: founding story that's been passed down and that we tell 104 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: on our tours. But Ruth herself, I think we've trained 105 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: in UM was interested in history, and um, what I 106 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: can say is her dynamism and her creativity still kind 107 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: of I mean, it just is amazing to me to 108 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: think of how people could have had the idea to 109 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: do this in the nineteen eighties. I just love that 110 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: it's a piece of history. It's kind of right in 111 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: line with the things we always talk about, which is 112 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: sort of the history that you don't hear, you know, 113 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: as you said, we sort of tend to think of 114 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: studying history and sort of amazing and hallowed halls, and 115 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,239 Speaker 1: we history is happening everywhere all the time, to people 116 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: of all levels of society. So I sort of love 117 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 1: that idea that it's it's the real history of real people, 118 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: and it's not something glamorized. It's not someone that is 119 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: famous that you've heard of, but that doesn't make their 120 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: stories any less important. Absolutely, I think that's at the 121 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: heart of the whole museum and it's mission. Um. One 122 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: of the things we do sometimes as ask visitors who come, 123 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, what are other historic houses you've been to, 124 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: or give me some examples in historic homes, and they'll 125 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: inevitably say Monticello, or they'll say the Manson's at Newport 126 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: or they'll say Mark Twain's house or Edith Wharton's home, 127 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: or basically giving us the names of very famous wealthy 128 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: or um political people, UM. And so that this continues 129 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: to be a surprise to people in a way that 130 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,119 Speaker 1: exactly what you're just saying, that ordinary people shape history 131 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: and should be the focus of our attention. That still 132 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: is a somewhat of a radical idea in the public story, 133 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,559 Speaker 1: even though historians and social historians have been really talking 134 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: about this, you know, since the nineteen sixt season, even 135 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: before UM, but it's taken. It's still because so much 136 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: of what we encounter, let's say, on the History Channel 137 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: or things like this, is in some ways a history 138 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: that still focuses on military battles or political personages, and 139 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 1: I mean just kind of things that seem out of touch. 140 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: But what we specialize in here are the ordinary stories 141 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: of people who lived here. And actually when you look 142 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: at those ordinary stories, they really become extraordinary. So I 143 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: think what we're able to do, UM best is be 144 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: in a site where people lived and be able to 145 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: show that people who would have never thought that anyone 146 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: would be thinking about them really did extraordinary things That 147 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,679 Speaker 1: kind of brings me to my mask next question, because 148 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: since you are actually housed in what was a tenement, 149 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: you have kind of an interesting layout and then it's 150 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: an apartment building, UM, and you're restoring parts of it 151 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: but not all of it. Could you kind of explain 152 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: to us how that's laid out and what sort of 153 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: the mission is in terms of just the structure, and 154 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: how your restoration efforts are kind of spearheaded and project managed. Absolutely. 155 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 1: So the building is five stories with a basement level 156 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: as well. So the basement level was initially UH space 157 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: for stores, UM, and we've restored that basement level to 158 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: show a saloon that was there in the eighteen seventies UM, 159 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: actually as early as eighteen sixty four UM. And then 160 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: above that you have essentially four sorry, five floors each 161 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: with four apartments UM. Then the building was first, so 162 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: the running water and the bathrooms were outside in the 163 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: rear yard, and we've also recreated that rear yard. UM. 164 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: In nineteen o one, the building changed because of a 165 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: new law which was incredibly important, and at that point 166 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: the landlord had to add two toilets per floor, so 167 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: the layouts changed from Florida floor. But they also change 168 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: over time but essentially what you have on the second, third, fourth, 169 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: and fifth floor are four apartments with two toilets UM 170 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: and one hallway. On the first floor you have a 171 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: longer hallway. UM. When it was originally built, there were 172 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: four apartments. Over time after that nineteen one housing law 173 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: and the landlord made changes. The first two of those 174 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: apartments were converted into storefronts. So it's tricky because the 175 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: building changed over time. But essentially you have a UM 176 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: five story building with a basement level. It's about um 177 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: ft wide and sixty six feet deep UM and the 178 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: whole width of the lots right is built with this building, 179 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: so there's very little yard space, and of that of 180 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: course influences UM the amount of light that the building received. Well, 181 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: in my understanding, I don't have a huge massive grasp 182 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: on the nineteen one tenement housing law, but prior to 183 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't have had indoor lighting either correct, absolutely 184 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: right right right, so none none that the landlord would 185 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: have provided. So when the building was first built there 186 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: were very few laws UM governing any kind of requirements 187 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: for lighting or for running water and so on, And therefore, 188 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: when the building was built in eighteen sixty three, um. 189 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: There was no running water, the bathrooms were outside, the 190 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: only source of water was outside, and there was no 191 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: lighting in the central areas. Individual tenants would bring in 192 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: their own form of lighting, UM, but there was nothing 193 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: provided by the landlord. And that was fairly typical. So 194 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: I can imagine some of those hallway trips to the 195 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: bathroom at night were really really dark. Oh yeah, I 196 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: mean it's it's almost tired to a mad And one 197 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: of the things our educators do so well though, is 198 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: make the visitors feel like they're back in time through 199 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: their storytelling power and through the details they're able to 200 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: do through description. But one of the things we are 201 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: able to do when people are assembled in our front 202 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: hallway is we have one of the visitors switch off 203 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: the light switch. So there goes the electric lighting and 204 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: it becomes very dark, even at like ten in the 205 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: morning or eleven in the morning when the sun is 206 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: shining outside. You see how dark that hallway would be, 207 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: and then you can start to appreciate and start to 208 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: imagine what that would have been like at midnight or 209 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: ten PM, I mean, just how dark the hallway was. 210 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: Then when you layer that with the kind of UM, 211 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: what people would be doing as they went through the hall. 212 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: For example, you'd be having to go outside to get 213 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: a bucket of water. So going through a dark hallway, 214 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: going up dark and staircases, carrying a bucket of water, 215 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: hoping you're not going to run into someone, hoping you're 216 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: not going to spill the water. I mean, the kind 217 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: of actions in that darkened space are really amazing. When 218 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: you're restoring each of the floor. Am I correct that 219 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: you're not restoring everything, You're purposely keeping some things as is? Yes, yes, so, um, 220 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: most historic houses preserve or restore. Actually, the most historic 221 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: houses restore. They're building to look as it would have 222 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: in one particular period, one particular you know, period of 223 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: extreme historical significance. Let's say the Tournament Museum is different 224 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: because the founders decided and the people who work with 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: them in the very beginning realize that rather than restoring 226 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: it just to one moment, they should be able to 227 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: take different apartments and take them to different moments. And 228 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: so when we restore apartments, we're going to restore them differently, um, 229 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: in part due to what time period we're in. So 230 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: in a part men for examples that we're restoring to 231 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: be the eighteen sixties is not going to have running 232 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: water in it, but an apartment that we're going to 233 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: restore to the nineteen fifteen would have running water on 234 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: it um. So that doing that requires a lot of 235 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: research in the actual building, looking at when wall partitions shifted, um, 236 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: looking at wallpaper layers, looking at paint layers, and so 237 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: we bring in people who specialize in all of these 238 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: areas to do analysis of the building um of the 239 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: building elements, and that helps inform the decisions we make 240 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: with how we're going to restore a particular apartment to 241 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: a particular time period. Also included in the kind of 242 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: areas and historical record of significance would be what we 243 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: term our ruined apartments, And so we actually preserve rooms 244 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: to look as they did when Luc and Anita discovered 245 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: the building in the nineteen eighties, and the upper floors 246 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: hadn't been used at all um so no one had 247 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: updated them since the mid nineteen thirties. So we preserve 248 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: apartments that look as they did in the ninth in 249 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: eighties after no one had lived there for fifty years, 250 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: and we call those ruins because that moment of discovering 251 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: we feel is important for our visitors to understand, and 252 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: that's our kind of home, that's our base. We always 253 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: start with an apartment that looks like that before we 254 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: recreate them. So there's a way in which UM visitors 255 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: who come to our museum not only travel through time 256 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: simply by crossing a hallway and walking from one apartment 257 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: to another, but they also see a kind of before 258 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: and after process in a way that's so cool UM. 259 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: And that's ongoing, and that's ongoing. You guys are still 260 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: in the process of renovating the whole building, correct, Yeah, well, 261 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: we still were always doing research into the building. And 262 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: then the other thing that we're really working on is 263 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: is preservation and making sure that UM the building is 264 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: stable and making sure that we're able to repair things 265 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: that need to be repaired. But that requires analysis, and 266 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: that requires work, and that requires a work plan, and 267 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: it also requires UM money. So everything we do is 268 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: a kind of combination of study, a fundraising of UM, 269 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: a studying schedule to kind of see when work can 270 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: be done, which I imagine as a huge balancing act UM. 271 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: Going back, kind of circling back to what we've talked 272 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: about at the top of the interview about kind of 273 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: the importance of looking at history as it was happening 274 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: to regular people. Um, I'm curious just for your take 275 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: on what you think is really kind of the the 276 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: big important reason that we should preserve immigration history specifically, 277 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: and that's I mean, it's such a sort of American 278 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: thing to talk about, even though I think people don't 279 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: always fully have a big picture sense of what all 280 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: kind of took place in the immigration realm. But also 281 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: I think it's part of a global human story. It's 282 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: pretty important to think about how people have moved from 283 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: place to place and made their way. But I'm curious 284 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: what your take is on all that. Yeah, I mean 285 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating story. I think that there's an immigration 286 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: history is so important because for many people it's very 287 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: accessible in this country. So we're not a country where 288 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: most you know, in this country, most people have not 289 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: been here for twenty generations. We're a country in which 290 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people can trace their immigration um story. 291 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: So someone might come to our museum whose great grandparents immigrated, 292 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: are great great grandparents immigrated or grandparent or parents, and 293 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: so you know, this is a country. No matter where 294 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,119 Speaker 1: you live in this country, we have an intimate connection 295 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: to immigration. UM. We have photos of immigrants who came 296 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: over who are in our family. So I think that 297 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: the immigration story is really accessible to us because we 298 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: have immigrant stories in our own families. On another level, 299 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: even if you don't have or you don't know of 300 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: someone in your family who immigrated, the immigration story is 301 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: a saga and a journey, a personal narrative and story 302 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: that I think has so much residence. The idea simply 303 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: of someone picking up, um, leaving a place where they've 304 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: been for most of their life and journeying to a 305 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: new place to start all over again, is is really 306 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: an exciting narrative that you know, some people play this 307 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: out if they've simply moved from one state to another, 308 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: and you have a sense of what movement does and 309 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: how movement reshapes your life and reshapes the way you think, um, 310 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, again moving from state to state or city 311 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: to city, so that people can take that experience too 312 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: and use it to relate to immigration. So I think 313 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: immigration is important because a lot of this experience it 314 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: in some way or another. UM. And I also think 315 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: that one of the things we find at our museum 316 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: is that the immigrant story becomes not just a story 317 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: of particular groups of people who come at particular moments 318 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: in time, although it is that, and we get into 319 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: the details of that, but the immigrant story and the 320 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: immigration story is also a lens on what does it 321 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: mean to be American. All the people who went to 322 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: ninety seven Orchard, whether they were Irish, whether they were Italian, 323 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: whether they were German, whether they were East European Jewish, 324 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: all of those people and all of those groups once 325 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: they got here, had to grapple with what it meant 326 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: to be a American. What does it mean to raise 327 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: American children? What does it mean to send your kids 328 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: to new school? What does it mean um to have 329 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: American politics shape your life or the American economy shape 330 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: your life. They all had to grapple with that. So 331 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: that moment, I think where we can kind of look 332 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: at America from the perspective of immigrants gives us a 333 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: real insight on what America was at at a particular moment. 334 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: So we might be a museum of immigration, but I 335 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: think we're also very much a museum of what it 336 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: meant to be American. Uh And you mentioned in that 337 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: answer the sort of many different backgrounds that people came 338 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: from that lived there in the building at various points 339 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: in time. Can you give us a picture of what 340 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: the neighborhood was really like when this was actually a functioning, 341 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: thriving residence, and how it kind of evolved through the 342 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: decades between when it opened in the eighteen six season 343 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: then when it's shut down kind of abruptly in the 344 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. M So, just as the building itself changed 345 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: over time to meet a series of needs and laws 346 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: and and improvements, the neighborhood itself is changing, and so 347 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: the building's changes are of course a response to changes 348 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. More broadly, when the building was first 349 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: built in eighteen sixty three, this neighborhood was not known 350 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: as the Lower east Side. It was known as Clin 351 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: Deutsch Launder, a little Germany, And it was called that 352 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: because the neighborhood in the city was a very German 353 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: neighborhood and city. So what we now call the Lower 354 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: east Side UM, what was then called Clent Deutsche Land 355 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: was actually the fifth largest German speaking city UM in 356 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: the world right and and New York was the third 357 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: largest German speaking city in the world after Berlin and Vienna. 358 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: So when ninety seven Orchard was built in eighteen sixty three, 359 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: it was in the midst of this kind of thriving, 360 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: bustling German neighborhood where you would hear German on the streets, 361 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: where you would see German signs, where you could buy 362 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: German sausage, and you could buy German lugger beer. At 363 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: ninety seven Orchard, at Tonighter's saloon, um could get a 364 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: German newspaper. You'd hear German music emanating from the um, 365 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: from the saloons, and from the beer gardens that were 366 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. So it was very much a German neighborhood, 367 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: and of course the people who lived at Orchard reflected 368 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: that German population. As the decades went on, Um Germans 369 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: moved uptown Um, they moved to neighborhood called Yorkville, I think, 370 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: moved to Brooklyn, they moved to New Jersey, and new 371 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: immigrants survived in the neighborhood UM. And these were immigrants 372 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: that weren't that excited about um German sausages or German 373 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: luggage beer, because these were East European Jews who are 374 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: going to bring their own customs, their own religion, um, 375 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: their own food waves to the neighborhood. They also came 376 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: in much larger numbers and settled in rapid um rapid 377 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: time period in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, so 378 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: that this neighborhood is not only a heavily immigrant neighborhood, 379 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: but it's the most densely populated neighborhood um in the country, 380 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: and some people at the time even argued the world. 381 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: So you have an extremely crowded neighborhood, and as more 382 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: people are moving in and as time goes by, the 383 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: tenement itself becomes much more dilapidated. And so what was 384 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: once built as a home to house a family of four, 385 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: you know, a tenement apartment maybe have four people, maybe 386 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: five people at the most, is now having at least 387 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: five or six people in a three square foot space, 388 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: but as many as ten or eleven or twelve and 389 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: nine hundred, so extremely um crowded conditions. If you walk 390 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: down Orchard Street, it would be very crowded. You'd be 391 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: contending with other people going every which way on the streets. 392 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: There were push kurt peddlers who, um, we're selling their 393 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: wears on parts with wheels. Um, they could be selling pickles, 394 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: they could be selling fruits, they could be selling old shoes, 395 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: they could be selling spectacles. Basically everything you needed could 396 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: be had on these push cards, which is very you know, 397 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: convenient for the house lives an Orchard Street. That it 398 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: was very inconvenient if you were on your way to 399 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: work or on your way to school and you were late, 400 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: just because the streets were distilled with people. So the 401 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: like when you see a movie set where they've called 402 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: central casting to like throw a bunch of people into 403 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: a quote period piece, it sounds almost that's what I mean. 404 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: I feel like that's like the consummate crowd in a way, 405 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: like that's the And they did that, you know, they 406 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: come what was the name of the show, I can't 407 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: remember there was. They actually set up a film set 408 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: here and it was incredible because they made Orchard Street 409 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: look as it would have I think, you know, in 410 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: the or undreds, and they had the people in costumes. 411 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: So it was this really kind of interesting thing where we, 412 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, who tried to recreate the time in our 413 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: apartment or in our ten of building in our museum. 414 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: We're able to see what the stream might have looked 415 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: like with all the actors. But even then I still 416 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: think there would have been more people on the streets 417 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: than they were able to I should also add that 418 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: in nineteen hundred, when you would have all these peathers 419 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: on the streets were so densely populated. Um, the signs 420 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: would now would no longer be in German, but they 421 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: would be in Yiddish and English. And the language you'd 422 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: hear on the streets would be Yiddish and maybe a 423 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: little Italian, and you'd hear English, although the English would 424 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: often be heavily accented. So then post nineteen hundred it's shifted, 425 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: I presume some more for a few decades. And then 426 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: can you tell us about kind of the lead ups 427 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: to its suddenly ending as an apartment building? Sure? Absolutely so, 428 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: Um in the nineteen even as early as the nineteen hundreds, 429 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: especially when the subway was built in nineteeno four and 430 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: some of the bridges were opening, the Lillias for Bridge 431 00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen o three and then Manhattan Bridge, and I 432 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: to know eight um lower East Siders were anxious to 433 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: get out of the Lowry Side because of the conditions 434 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: that I described, because of the crowded conditions, So people 435 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: were leaving, but they were always being replaced by new 436 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: waves of immigrants. And by the nineteen teens you start 437 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: to have UM more Italians moving into UM what we 438 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: call the Lower Side, into Orchard streets. So nineteen nineteen 439 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: twenty our building becomes more Italian. But in nineteen twenty 440 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: four you have a major change because a law is 441 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: passed UM, a federal law that for the first time 442 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: is using UM national quotas UM and makes very difficult 443 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: to get into the country. Immigrants can no longer get 444 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: into the country. It's very hard to get into the 445 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: country if you're coming from southern Europe, or you're coming 446 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: from Eastern Europe, if you're coming from Asia, you can't 447 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: come in at all. So we kind of in nine 448 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: this country closes its gates UM and it becomes difficult 449 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: to get here. And that has huge consequences UM and 450 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: huge you know, ramifications for the country and obviously for 451 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: those who would have wanted to come. But what it 452 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: means for the Lower East Side is that for the 453 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 1: first time you have a decrease in population. Between nineteen 454 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: twenty and nineteen thirty UM, I think the population decreases 455 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: UM by UM. I think in nineteen twenty you have 456 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty thousand people living here, and by 457 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: the end of the decade you have UM a hundred 458 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: and sixty thousand, so a huge decrease in population. And 459 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: then you by nineteen thirty five, by ninety four, nineteen 460 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: thirty five, our landlord, we know, only has seven tenants 461 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: out of the twenty apartments that he could be letting out, 462 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: and so UM in nineteen UM N nine and then 463 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty four laws are passed that require UM 464 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 1: staircases to be UM fireproof, and the staircases on the 465 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: hallways at ninety seven Orchard are made of wood, and 466 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,479 Speaker 1: they still are made of wood, because the landlord at 467 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: that time decided it's not worth investing in the building 468 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: in this way to bring it up to code. It's 469 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: easier to evict the residents who are still here and 470 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: just used the space as as a store. The first 471 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: than the second floor of store spaces UM and so 472 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: in he evicted the residence. And so then at that 473 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: point was the exception of one woman, Fanny Um Rosenthal 474 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: Fanny Rogosovski, who americanized as her name to Rosenthal She's 475 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: left in the building for a few more years of 476 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 1: the caretaker, but for all intents and purposes in um 477 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: the building is emptied of its residence. And so what's 478 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: really interesting to me is that it stayed that way 479 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: for for fifty years, still being rented out as a storefront. 480 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: But no one was touching any of those other floors. Wow. 481 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: I mean it is surprising in a way, right, but 482 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: in to put your to put ourselves in the mind 483 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: frames of people who would be living here in the 484 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, who would want to live in a tournament forties? 485 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: Why would you want to live in a tournament. You 486 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: can get better housing now in Brooklyn or in the 487 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: Bronx or in Queens, So why stay on the Lower 488 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: east Side unless you really really have to. So there 489 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: isn't as much to demand for housing, hence there's less 490 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: rent and so that's why the landlords aren't investing in 491 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: the spaces. And they made a time capsule accidentally exactly, 492 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: maybe it was all on purpose, if we could go 493 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: back in time, maybe the landlord was thinking, you know, 494 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: if I feel this up, it'll be ripe for a 495 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: museum in fifty years. Exactly. I've picturing the the sort 496 00:27:51,320 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: of Mr Burns hand class being ahead bed in fifty years. So, 497 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: now that we've gotten to the point in the story 498 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: where the tenement closed and left kind of a time 499 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: capsule for people to come back to you later, we're 500 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: gonna cliffhang you just a little bit. In the next episode. 501 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: We'll talk about some of the specific residents who lived 502 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: in the tenement while it was still a residence. And 503 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: we'll also talk about some of the programs and ongoing 504 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: work that the museum is doing today. And I think 505 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: Holly has some listener mail for us as well. I do. Uh. 506 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: This is from our listener Andrew, and he says, hello, 507 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: may Dam. The entire family loves the podcast. He has 508 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: two kids that that are ages seven and ten. Uh, 509 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: and then two adult kids which him and his wife, 510 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: I presume, he says. I recall many many years ago 511 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: reading about how miss Brumbach, who was that was the 512 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: original name of Katie Sandwina before she took her stage name, 513 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: how Miss Brumbach had defeated Sandow. If you recall from 514 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: that episode, she challenged Eugene Sandow to a lifting contest 515 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: and it was really quite uh preposterous on the surface, 516 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: but in fact she beat him and uh Andrew goes On. 517 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: The writer of the article speculated that Miss Brumbach and 518 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: her father knew exactly what they were doing when they 519 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: slowly increased the weight and did multiple lifts in rapid succession. 520 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: Ms Brumbach was in tip top physical shape. She was 521 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: not only strong, she also had amazing stamina. Sandow became 522 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: fatigued and he was not able to lift the three 523 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: pound weight. Sorry, I don't recall the source. It was 524 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: many years back when we had when we had deep 525 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: discussions of such things in the dorm hallway or did 526 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: I dream it? Uh, that's an interesting thing that I 527 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: hadn't thought about, sort of the strategy of that lifting 528 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: contest and how she was for any listeners that either 529 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: missed it or just need a quick refresh. They were 530 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: lifting in slowly incrementally increasing weights. So if she had 531 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: been working on her stamina the entire time, she probably 532 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: wasn't getting worn out from all of these lifts the 533 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: successive lifts, where as if stand Now had been working 534 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,239 Speaker 1: strictly on strength and less on muscle stamina, he may 535 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: have worn himself out a little earlier in the competition. 536 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: Pretty fascinating stuff. Uh. If you would like to write 537 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: to us and share your knowledge, whether it's imagined in 538 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: a dorm hallway or the real deal. Uh, that could 539 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: be a real deal, but he's not positive that Andy, 540 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: you can write to us at History Podcast at house 541 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: to works dot com. You can also connect with us 542 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: on Facebook dot com slash mist in History, on Twitter 543 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: at mist in History, at misston History dot tumbler dot com, 544 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 1: on pinterest dot com slash mist in History, and UH 545 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: you can visit us at spreadshirt at mist in History 546 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: dot spreadshirt dot com. If you'd like to purchase ditties. 547 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: If you want to follow up and do some of 548 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: your own research about the Tenement Museum, you can find 549 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: them at www dot tenement dot org and on Twitter 550 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: at Tenement Museum. If you want to do a little 551 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: bit of research on uh, the topic that we talked 552 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: about today, you can go to our parents site how 553 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: stuff Works. Type in the word immigration in the search 554 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: bar and you will get how Immigration Work as one 555 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: of the articles. 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