1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and this is coming to you 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: on November seven, the day before the American presidential election 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and in some places 6 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: Gary Johnson and Dr Jill Stein. So what else could 7 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 1: we possibly talk about than Madam President's Laurel. Yeah, that's right. 8 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: I As we were going over the notes for this episode, 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: I was thinking about how normal it had always seemed 10 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: to me growing up and even now as an adult, 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: even now as an adult, um, that women would lead 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: other countries. I mean, I grew up reading about female 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: world leaders, presidents, prime ministers, things like that Queen's um. 14 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: So it just never seems strange. Where it seems strange, 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: as when we came back to this country and we 16 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: had never had a female president, And it's not shocking 17 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: to me that it's taken a woman this long to 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: get an office in this country. UM, But the idea itself, 19 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: to me in general, just isn't that strange. Well, yeah, 20 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: it's not strange at all. Women are completely capable of 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: leading nation governments, period. But I like how you are 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: speaking as though Madam President Hillary Clinton already exists. So 23 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: I got my time machine for this episode right right, 24 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: you know. And honestly, it's been such to to use 25 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: a word that we often disparage on the podcast. It's 26 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: been such a hysterical election season, especially the past few weeks, 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: that I am honestly just bracing myself until November nine, 28 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: when Trump supporters, I hope you go out and vote 29 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: in mass um, because no, no, no, his vectors are 30 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: going out the ninth. It's totally fine. You can do 31 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: early voting on the ninth. You can wait until the 32 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: day of I don't care. Is my birthday that is 33 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: an amazing birthday present. Um, But I am just bracing 34 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: myself until the deal is done. So I'm I'm thankful 35 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: for your your optimism and ensure assuredness that this is happening. Well. 36 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: My strategy for surviving this has been to tune out 37 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: cable news, the twenty four hour news networks, all of 38 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: them equally. Um. My boyfriend NonStop when he is home, 39 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: has CNN on, and I just can't take it. It's punishing, 40 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: it is it is punishing, and I don't want to 41 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: it would be one thing, if I were watching or 42 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: listening to some sort of news outlet that was literally 43 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: giving me the news, giving me the facts I needed, 44 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: giving me policy, giving me, you know, things that could 45 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: help me as a voter in general, make up my mind, 46 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: decide how I feel about all sorts of Canadas, not 47 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 1: just the two people running for president. Um. But that 48 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: is not the case with the American cable news system, 49 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: and I just can't deal with it. So I get 50 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: on Twitter and where I follow a lot of really smart, 51 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: funny people, and I get to read jokes, and then 52 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: when it becomes too intense, I just log off of 53 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: Twitter too. For myself a little bit of champagne cocktail. 54 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is, it is so 55 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: hard to become a female president, whether in the United 56 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: States or anywhere, because you and I grew up when 57 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: Thatcher was just kind of fading out. But you're still around, 58 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: and as we're gonna learn, becoming a female prime minister, 59 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: while challenging yes, uh, is not as hard as becoming 60 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: a president. I had no idea about this, me neither, 61 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: and I had no idea about the very gendered aspects 62 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, aside from like you know sexism period, 63 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: but it is so interesting to learn about the things 64 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: that tip the office of President and Prime minister in 65 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: favor of men or women. Yeah, and it also offers 66 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: a more global understanding of where we stand in terms 67 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: of gender and perception and sexism and leadership. And maybe 68 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: a good place to start would be in Australia. Hello, 69 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: Australian listeners. I hope we can see face to face 70 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: one day because I've never been to Australia and would 71 00:04:54,040 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: really like to go. Um And, Australia had its first 72 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: and still only female prime minister a few years back, 73 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: Julia Gillard, and she became famous worldwide with something called 74 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: the Misogyny Speech. It actually has its own Wikipedia entry 75 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: the Misogyny Speech does um And I suggested to Caroline 76 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: before she started diving into a lot of the more 77 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: depressing research on women in politics, that she watched this 78 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: fifteen minute speech that Gillard delivers on the Parliamentary floor 79 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: directly to the leader of the Opposition, Tony Abbott, who 80 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: would later become Prime Minister, calling out sexism and misogyny. Oh, 81 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: it's brilliant. It's brilliant, And first of all, I would 82 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: just like to say that Australians, your parliament is way 83 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: more interesting then watching the US Congress do its work. Yeah, 84 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: because you get to yell at each other and holler 85 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: when people are talking. So often you just hear politicians 86 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: tow the line and you know, be nervous about calling 87 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: out things like sexism and misogyny directly. But Australia's former 88 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: PM did it. Yeah, she had had enough And just 89 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: for a quick backstory, she had spearheaded this carbon tax 90 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: that apparently she you know, said she wasn't going to 91 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: be in favor of. She ended up backing it. Um, 92 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: Australians listening, if if I need to, if you need 93 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: to fill me in on the details, please do. But 94 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: it sparked this nasty political debate that was filled with 95 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: all sorts of sexist rhetoric that was condoned by Opposition 96 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: leader Tony Abbott. And there was this other incident that 97 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: came up with Gillard's party where this guy, um Fred 98 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: Slipper which is a fabulous name, Mrs Slipper had had 99 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: sent us some unsavory text messages like jokey, you know 100 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: those awful sexist emails that you know that your unfortunate 101 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: uncle sends along and thinks that you'll laugh at um. 102 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: So he got caught sending those and so Tony Abbott 103 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: stands up and it's like old stand for this, and 104 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: Gillard is like, oh oh, suddenly you're you're calling out sexism. 105 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: So in October she gets up and just drags Abbot 106 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes on the parliamentary floor figuratively speaking um, 107 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: kicking things off, saying I will not be lectured about 108 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: sexism and misogyny by this man. If he wants to 109 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: know what misogyny looks like in modern Australia, he doesn't 110 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: need a motion in the House of Representatives. He needs 111 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: a mirror bern. And then you hear, you know, some 112 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: of her supporters yell out and echo a mirror yes fabulous. 113 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: Oh because also to consider that this same guy, Tony Abbott, 114 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: on parliamentary floor once said that Gillard, who is unmarried 115 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: and child free, should quote make an honest woman of herself. 116 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean this woman had just been essentially absorbing all 117 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: of this sexism and she had had enough. Yeah, people 118 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: have been holding signs outside of Parliament calling her a 119 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: bitch and a witch. And who was it? Was? It? 120 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: Abbott who said that she should be just putting a 121 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: bag and thrown into the ocean, and she's like, ha, 122 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: jokes on you, which is don't drown. Yeah, I mean 123 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: she talked about a nasty woman. Um. She she is one. 124 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: And she wrote an open letter in The New York 125 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: Times earlier this year to fellow nasty woman Hillary Clinton 126 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: and talked about quote, the curious question of gender and 127 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: the fact that we often refuse to just like call 128 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,599 Speaker 1: a spade a spade when it comes to women in politics, 129 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: to identify sexism, and the whole likability trap and a 130 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: nonsense of pulling the woman card if you do call 131 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: out sexism. Um. And she encouraged, uh, the electorate too similarly, 132 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, hold people accountable. And now, of course I 133 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe like half the population listened, but uh, 134 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: I feel like that's that's a good place to start, 135 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: because to me, that misogyny speech encapsulates all of all 136 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: of the rage um of the barriers, the invisible barriers 137 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: that still prevent women from becoming president in particular. But 138 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: I mean, but I am talking about a female prime 139 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: minister and like you said, Caroline at the top of 140 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: the podcast, is like it wasn't a foreign idea to 141 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: you that women could lead nations, So it can't be 142 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: all that bad, right, is it just in the United States? 143 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's not all that bad. Um. As 144 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: of July of this year, more than seventy countries have 145 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: had at least one female president or prime minister. I mean, 146 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: if you look at Nepal, Croatia, Turkey, Bangladesh, New Zealand, Mozambique, 147 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: on and on. And some of you listeners out there 148 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: might remember Croatia's president Kalinda Grabber Katarovich from UH an 149 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: episode of Samantha b where she talks about how after 150 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: she was elected, Uh, people went nuts posting bikini pictures 151 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: online that we're supposed to be of her, but they 152 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: were not, And the hilarious twist is that they were 153 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: actually of Coco Ice Tea s why from I Love Coco. Uh. Yeah. Anyway, well, 154 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: and it's worth noting too that she was is Croatia's 155 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: first female president, so welcome to the presidency. Everyone is 156 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: objectifying you, okay, And she tells Samantha Be in that 157 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: segment about how it does not feel great to know 158 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: that there are people actively sexually objectifying you. As you 159 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: might imagine. Yeah, and I mean there's this idea that 160 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: we have heard from I mean, this is obviously not 161 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: just a female president thing, but any women in leadership 162 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: roles at all. Of like, hopefully I'm making it better 163 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: for the women who come after me. But it is 164 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: horrifying when you stop and think about what these women 165 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: have to endure just to lead a country and try 166 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: to get the job done. And one thing to keep 167 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: in mind too, when we see all of these listicals 168 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: that really begin circule it even more um during this election, 169 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: of all of the places in the world that have 170 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: had female leaders outside of the United States. But you 171 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: gotta keep in mind that those numbers are slightly deceptive because, 172 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: as CNN reported, many countries, female leaders were in office 173 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: for at times just a few days, often less than 174 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: a year, or just serving as interim president. For instance, 175 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: in Ecuador, Rosalia Artiaga Serrano served as acting president for 176 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: two days. Two days. I mean, that's it's like a 177 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: nice little weekend. I know, I'd be down with taking 178 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: like a two day presidency, that's it, and then just 179 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,599 Speaker 1: hop out can I do it for like six hours 180 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: because I want to be out in time for happy 181 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: and not not even a full nine to five. No, No, 182 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: if I can be out of there by four to 183 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: go ahead and get you a cocktail. I think they 184 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: bring you cocktails though when you're the president, So can 185 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: I just drink it under the desk then and hide 186 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: from people who want things for me? I'm sure you 187 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't be the first president to do that. I am 188 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: not like cut out to be president, I think, which 189 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: is why these women are so impressive. But another part 190 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: two is not only have a lot of these female 191 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: leaders been in office for just short snippets of time, 192 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: usually more than my little six hour stint that I'm 193 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: envisioning your six hour booze crews. Yeah, sounds like a 194 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: regular Thursday. Um. But most of those seventy countries that 195 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: we just mentioned have had only one female president or 196 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: prime minister. When you look back at Argentina, for example, Uh, 197 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: they are an outlier actually in in the whole list 198 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: of countries that have had female leaders. They've had both 199 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: Isabel Parroone and Christina Fernandez di Kirchner serving in the 200 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: role of president. But got a note to that. Perrone 201 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: took over from her husband who died in office and 202 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: she was ousted by a coup. So see, I mean, 203 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: why why you gotta have coups? Why you know, right, 204 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: why you gotta have you gotta have cus um. But 205 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: but that's an interesting thing to note. I mean, does 206 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: that have anything to do with the glass cliff effect 207 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: that we talked about in our episode on failure and perfectionism? Yeah, 208 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: it absolutely could, and we'll get into that a little 209 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: bit more. But a lot of times women end up 210 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: leading nations when times are the most unstable, similar to 211 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: female CEOs being brought in when a company is on 212 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: the verge of collapse, because research from Harvard and elsewhere 213 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: has found that we perceive women to be better leaders 214 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: during those times of crisis because of our nurturing and 215 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,479 Speaker 1: our coalition building. So they want us to be nurturers 216 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: and coalition builders. But then they passed bikini fake bikini 217 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: shots of us online. Well sure, I mean if you 218 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: can also like be sexy, that's like a two for one, right, 219 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: But then it's just used against us as Yeah, I 220 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: don't like playing Devil's advocate into the sexual objectifier of 221 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: Croatian presidents um. And also too, we have to keep 222 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: in mind, like how the number of female state leaders 223 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: relates to the actual power that we wield worldwide. So 224 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: according to the United Nations, currently not counting figurehead monarchs 225 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: like Queen Elizabeth, we have eighteen female world leaders, including 226 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: twelve heads of government and eleven elected heads of state. 227 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: And in rough terms, this is based on data um 228 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: so it might give or take a little bit. But 229 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: women account for just around seven percent of all national 230 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: leaders and hold just two percent of all presidential posts. 231 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: And while those numbers are not exciting, they represent massive 232 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: growth since the nineteen sixties, because we were pretty much 233 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: starting from nothing before nineteen sixty. Well, yeah, and when 234 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: you do go back to nineteen sixty, you have Sri 235 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: Lanka's Sirimavo Bandra Nike, who became the first female head 236 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: of government in the modern world. But and this is 237 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: pretty common, she was actually taking over for her dead 238 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: husband amid a whole bunch of democratic upheaval in the country, 239 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: and she ended up losing her positional several times. She 240 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: served from nineteen sixty to sixty five and then nineteen 241 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: seventy to seventy seven and then to two thousand and 242 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: in the meantime, the opposition party amped up the presidential power. 243 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: She was prime minister, but they had a dispersed power. 244 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: They also have a president um and so the opposition 245 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: party gave more power to the president in a way 246 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: to kind of rein her in um. But you also 247 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: see the power of nepotism a because she's taking over 248 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: from her husband and you have her daughter, Shandrika Kumara 249 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: Tanga being appointed president from nine to two thousand five 250 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: by the Sri Lanka Freedom Party, which though her husband, 251 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: who was also a former prime minister, founded So it 252 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: does help if you are a woman who wants to 253 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: have the highest office in the land, if you are 254 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: related to a man who has had the highest office 255 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: in the land. And the next two ladies that we're 256 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: going to talk about um were two of the women 257 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: that I was sort of thinking of when I mentioned 258 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: the fact that I grew up thanks to my history 259 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: teachers being very familiar with the idea that women could 260 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: exercise hour around the world. In nineteen sixty six, Indira 261 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: Gandhi became India's third Prime Minister and first and only 262 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: woman so far elected to the post. And again being 263 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 1: related to someone previously in power comes into play. She 264 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: was the daughter of Jawaharlal Nehru, India's first prime minister, 265 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: and Gandhi served three consecutive and controversial terms between nineteen 266 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: sixty six and seventy seven, and she came back after 267 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: stepping away in nineteen eighty to nineteen eighty four, but 268 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: her bodyguards assassinated her in ninety four, So not a 269 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: good end for Indira Gandhi. But then in the meantime, 270 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine, you get Golden Mayor, who was 271 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: a founder, one of the founders of the State of 272 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: Israel and was its fourth prime minister from nineteen sixty 273 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: nine to nineteen seventy four, and Uh Mayor attempted to 274 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: broker a peace deal in the Middle East until the 275 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: October nineteen seventy three young kipper war Um. And I 276 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: think that she's an interesting character. There's a quote about 277 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: her from the Jewish Women's Archive where they say that 278 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: Mayer chose not to be woman identified and behaved as 279 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: if gender doesn't matter, and and that really to me 280 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: reminded me of our episode that we did on Margaret Thatcher. Yeah, 281 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: I mean, they're both iron ladies. Um kind of have 282 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: to feeling like they had to desex themselves in order 283 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: to be perceived as powerful. And also, like Margaret Thatcher, 284 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: mayor wasn't exactly an unabashed women's rights advocate UM. And 285 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: the closest she came to really acknowledging the existence of 286 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: sexism was this bit in her autobiography when she says 287 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: that at one point David Ben Gurion called her the 288 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: only man in his cabinet, and she wrote, What amused 289 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: me about it was that obvious a slee he or 290 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: whoever invented the story, thought that this was the greatest 291 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: possible compliment that could be paid to a woman. I 292 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: very much doubted that any man would have been flattered 293 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: if I had said about him that he was the 294 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: only woman in the government. Gender is a funny thing, 295 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: such a funny thing. But she, I mean, she was 296 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: wielding it, though to her advantage, similar to Iron Lady 297 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: Number two, Old Margaret I know nothing to women's lib. 298 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: Quote Thatcher, who became British Prime Minister in nineteen seventy nine, 299 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: and we did a whole episode, well most of an 300 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: episode on her. We were talking about whether UM female 301 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: leaders are necessarily good for women UM And in the 302 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: case of Margaret Thatcher. The answer is not always. But 303 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: she was Prime Minister until and just as an example 304 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: of how Thatcher was certainly not out to start some 305 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: kind of feminist revolution, she appointed just one woman to 306 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: her cabinet during that entire time. Yeah, I think she 307 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: would be an example of someone who is not lifting 308 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: as she climbed. She's more pulling the ladder up behind 309 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: her as she climbs. Yea, Although we now have a 310 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: prime Minister Theresa May and talk about a glass cliff situation, 311 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: you know, because she became Prime Minister um on the 312 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: heels of the Brexit vote. And I do not envy 313 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: her one bit. No, but you said the key word there, 314 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: or I guess key set of words which should be 315 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: prime minister um. Most of the women that we've discussed 316 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: so far have not been president, they have been prime minister. 317 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: And there are some interesting gender expectations at play there. Yeah. So, 318 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: while yes, Sierra Mavo, Bander and Hockey in nineteen sixty 319 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: did become the first female head of government in the 320 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: modern world, it's not until nineteen eighty that we get 321 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: the first democratically elected female president. In the same similar 322 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: kind of situation that we have going on here in 323 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah, Hey, vig dis what vig dis 324 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: big dis finnbug diet here. I'm sorry, I'm American. That's 325 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: like the best I can do. I think he did great. 326 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: Thank you. She's an Iceland. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure 327 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: she got some shout outs in our podcast a while 328 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: back on Iceland's women's strike. But that's crazy though. I mean, 329 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: it took the world until nineteen eighty to get its 330 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,239 Speaker 1: first democratically elected lady press, and not terribly surprising that 331 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: it's in a small, small country and a relatively progressive, 332 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: gender progressive country. Yeah, and she actually was in office 333 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: until nineteen which makes her the longest sir, being elected 334 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: female head of state ever. And she paid a lot 335 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: of attention to that role modeling effect. You know, she 336 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: didn't let her pioneering and trailblazing status fall to the side. 337 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: One thing Finn Baghdatre said was quote, I'm also glad 338 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: that I've been able to help give women's self confidence 339 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: in Iceland. They come to me and they say, for 340 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: all of these years, you've been a role model for me. 341 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 1: They tell me they think if she could do it, 342 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: I can do it. This makes me very happy. And 343 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: you know what, Victus makes me very happy, Caroline, I know. 344 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: And another woman who makes us very happy, as should 345 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: be evident if you do go back and listen to 346 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: our episode about women striking in Iceland is Johanna Sigura Datier, 347 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: who was Iceland's first female Prime minister from two thousand 348 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: nine and the world's first openly gay female head of 349 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: state Iceland. All the snaps, I know, I was just 350 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: snapping in my head to h you know, I've got 351 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: as sassy as I sit here as sassy hand on 352 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: my hip and I am snapping in my head, moving 353 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: my head like I'm snapping um now. Right after Vigdus 354 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: comes into office, their Norwegian neighbor in nineteen eighty one 355 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: gets its first female prime minister with Dr gro Harlem 356 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: brunt Land, and she stayed in office less than a 357 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: year and then came back and served from s to 358 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: eighty nine and then from ninety to nine six when 359 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: she resigned and listen rad prime Minister alert. Because Bruntland 360 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: became known for appointing women to her cabinet, she did 361 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: not pull a Maggie Thatcher. Eight out of the eighteen 362 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: positions she appointed were two women. Um. And she's also 363 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: nicknamed the Mother of sustainability and has led so many 364 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: environmental efforts, including becoming the Director General of the World 365 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: Health Organization and Chairman of the UN Commission on the 366 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: Environment in October. So, uh, dr grow love it well. 367 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: I think that's a great name for someone who's an environmentalist, yes, 368 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: and also advocating for women. Yeah. I don't know how 369 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: to do a Norwegian accent. I wish I did Norwegian listeners, 370 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: I know you're out there. Um. And in six when 371 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: I was but a child of three. Uh, Corazon Aquino 372 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: becomes the Philippines first female president thanks to the People 373 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: Power Revolution. And she also, by the way, was Time 374 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: Magazines Woman of the Year. Yeah. We could devote a 375 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: whole episode to her because her life and work is 376 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: pretty incredible. But I will just give you this snippet 377 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: from that Time Magazine Person of the Year article, in 378 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: which they described her as quote a widowed housewife who 379 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: avenged her husband's death by overthrowing the regime widely blamed 380 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: for his murder doing talk about some z snaps going 381 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: on in my head. Now I would watch a movie 382 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: version of that, Like, I mean, obviously of her life. 383 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: I would totally watch a Corazone biopic, but I also 384 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: want to like see that set as kind of a 385 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones storyline where she like comes in on 386 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: a horse with a sword. I will avenge my husband. 387 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: Um kick started. There you go. And in. Yet another 388 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: woman who comes up in my mind when I think 389 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: about my high school history classes and government classes is 390 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: Benezir Bhutto. She became the first democratically elected female leader 391 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: of an Islamic nation, Pakistan. She served from eight eight, 392 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: ninety and ninety three to ninety six, but much like 393 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: Indira Gandhi, she did not have a happy end. She 394 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: was actually assassinated in two thousand seven while running for 395 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: a third term as Prime minister. And I had to 396 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: blink for a minute because I totally thought she had 397 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: died earlier. Um, and I might have mixed her up 398 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: in my head with Indira Gandhi in that regard, um, 399 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: but I I do remember learning about her in high 400 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: school and being like, yeah, yeah, women can can kick 401 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: ass as leaders. Well. I distinctly remember Benezer Bhutto's assassination 402 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: because that was the first time that I ever heard 403 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: the words Afghan Taliban because she was killed by members 404 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: of the Taliban and she often had to flee, you know. 405 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: And and because first of all, like the presidents who 406 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: were in power while she was Prime minister typically weren't 407 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: fans of her. Um. Right, that's right, that's right, that's right, yes, yes, 408 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: it's it's all coming back to me now. Um. And 409 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: she would also be one who would make for a 410 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: terrific podcast because, um, there were a number of articles 411 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: we were reading about her role modeling effect. Just by 412 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: virtue of being a female leader in an Islamic nation, 413 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: she was considered the daughter of Pakistan and how inspirational 414 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: she continues to be for a lot of Pakistani women. Um. 415 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: And one piece that I was reading was essentially mourning 416 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: the fact that, um, that she's not not there anymore 417 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: to inspire girls who weren't alive when she was in power. Yeah, exactly. 418 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: Not to mention, she faced a ton of turmoil in 419 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: order to become prime minister at the ripe age of 420 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: thirty five. Her dad, for instance, was formerly a prime minister. 421 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: There again we have the family effect. But he was 422 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: assassinated and and she was constantly in an out of jail. Um. 423 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: When her dad was assassinated. She I want to say, 424 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: she and her mom were also captured and they weren't 425 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: allowed to go to his funeral a sort of as 426 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: a form of punishment. Um, And so she would also 427 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: be under house arrest, she would go into exile, but 428 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: she kept coming back, you know. So I mean talk 429 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: about a fighter, well, and we see another fighter in 430 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: Ireland's Mary Robinson. She was in office from nine to 431 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seven as the country's first female president and defying 432 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: the trend generally worldwide of having one female leader at 433 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: a time. Well, I mean, you know, not back to 434 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: back is what I mean. Her successor was not only 435 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: another woman, but it was another Mary, Mary mcalees, and 436 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: that's so rare. Yeah, one are the odds of back 437 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: to back Mary's well, but Robinson supported birth control and 438 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: gay righte in Ireland, and she said, I was elected 439 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: by the women of Ireland who, instead of rocking the cradle, 440 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: rock to the system. And we didn't have time to 441 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: go off on a little bit of a research tangent. 442 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: So I am hoping that we'll hear from some Irish 443 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: listeners who might be able to fill us in on this, 444 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: because I was surprised to see more of a pro 445 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: woman president, considering how Ireland is having so many issues 446 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: with reproductive rights and abortion not being legal there. Um. 447 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: So I wonder if she was pro birth control but 448 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: not pro abortion, or maybe she was both and just 449 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: didn't have the support. Um. Yeah, phill Us in listeners 450 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: if you know, well, Kristen, I have a TV question 451 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: for you. Have you watched the new the new New 452 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: Tracy Ullman show that's on? No? No, I have not 453 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: watched the New New. Um. I asked this because she 454 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: does an incredible Angela Merkel character. It's it's Angela Merkel. 455 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: She's doing an impression of her, and it's I might 456 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: have laughed until there were tears in my eyes at 457 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: her characterization of Angela Merkel. Uh. She is quite a powerhouse. 458 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: Oh totally. She became in two thousand five Germany's first 459 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: female chancellor. Um. Also, did you know that she has 460 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: a background in physics? Um? I learned that as we 461 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: were researching for this episode. Yeah, me too. Why doesn't 462 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: she tout that more often? Like? What should she just 463 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: like wear a lab code and carry a beaker around? 464 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: She just just say something on the back of her 465 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: her blazers hey, p s, I have a background in physics. 466 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm probably smarter than you. Um. And since two thousand five, 467 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: though she has remained Chancellor, she's also served as the 468 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: President of the European Council in oh seven yes, I 469 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: said twenty seven seven, Um, and she served as a 470 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: chair of the G eight. And meanwhile she has become 471 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: a key leader in the European Union. And that's one 472 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: reason that Time magazine named her it's Person of the Year. 473 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: And pretty much, if you want to become Forbes magazines 474 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: most powerful Woman of the Year, you're gonna have to 475 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: go toe to toe with Merkel because she has held 476 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: that title for six years running. And um. One of 477 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: the reasons, going back to Time though, that she received 478 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: that honor was because of her handling of the Syrian 479 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: refugee crisis, even though it is caused um, you know, 480 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: some issues state side German listeners. I'm also curious to 481 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: hear from you, um how beloved Merkel is, because I 482 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: know that more conservative politicians have been putting more heat 483 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: on her. UM. So I'm curious if, ah if her 484 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: chancellorship might be coming to an end sometime soon. UM. 485 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: But just f y, I while campaigning for her third term, 486 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: Merco said that she did not identify as a feminist, 487 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: but don't worry. All she's been like had tea with 488 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: Lena Dona and Taylor Swift and they just like hash 489 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: everything out. Now, Um, she probably did that because she 490 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: would have alienated conservative voters. Yeah, but she's been lately 491 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: more outspoken. And I say lately, I don't mean necessarily 492 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: like this week, but she has lately been more outspoken 493 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: about women's rights and giving women a platform and and 494 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: a lega. Yeah, and you'll know how we feel about 495 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: that question. The question to celebrities and even heads of 496 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: state up, are you a feminist? Yes or no? No 497 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: context of what it might mean. Just give us something 498 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: that we can make a headline out of. Yeah. If 499 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: if no one asked Sarah Jessica Parker if she's a 500 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: feminist ever again, I can die happy. Just stop asking her, please. 501 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 1: And if we jump a year after Angela Merkel became 502 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: Germany's first chancellor, first female chancellor. Sorry, um, we get 503 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: to a badass economist and former finance minister and Nobel 504 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: Prize winner Ellen sur Leif Johnson, she became Liberia's and 505 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: really all of Africa's first female president. Um. She was 506 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: also nicknamed the Iron Lady, which makes me wonder y'all. Okay, ye, 507 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: I think we're on the same page. Um, we have 508 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: one nickname for women in power that we respect, and 509 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: it's an iron lady. If there isn't a lot of 510 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: gendered messaging just packed into that, you're right. Are you 511 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: going to say that they should be called iron maiden instead? 512 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: I totally agree. I wasn't, but now I am, no, 513 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: I congres I totally agree with you. As I was reading, 514 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: I thought the same thing. As I was going through sources, 515 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we're calling 516 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: yet another woman iron lady. Yeah, do you just mean 517 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: that this is a a woman human who exercises power. 518 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: To me, the iron says that she has the tough 519 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: masculinity to get the job done. But the Lady, I 520 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: means she puts doilies everywhere. It means that she is 521 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: still likable enough. You know, she hasn't completely de sexed herself, 522 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: even though Goldenmere like that was kind of her intention. Well, 523 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: but it's a weird qualifier. It's like when people feel 524 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 1: the need to say, uh, female firefighter or male nurse. 525 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: It's like, or you could just say firefighter or nurse. 526 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: It's kind of the same thing. You could just say 527 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: she's the press in or she's a tough leader, or 528 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: she's a powerful leader of a country. I feel like, 529 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: why do we need to continue giving women heads of 530 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: state nicknames like iron lady and only iron lady, Like 531 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,439 Speaker 1: that's the thing. I don't know of other nicknames. Maybe 532 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: people in these separate countries aren't talking to each other, 533 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: they don't realize that it's been done. And also historically 534 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: not not. I mean, I'm sure that there are presidential 535 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: and prime prime ministerial nicknames that countries will give their 536 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: own leaders, like kind of like as in jokes, but 537 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: I'm not immediately recalling um a lot of similar nicknames 538 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: for male leaders. You know, It's not like, although, who 539 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: was allick somebody was all Hickory, that was Andrew Jackson. 540 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: But we all know, we all know what a what 541 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: a great guy Andrew Jackson was. Nabe Bill Clinton was 542 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: like the saxophone gentleman. That'll be his name, his title, 543 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: that'll be the one of the nice things that he's called. Unfortunately, 544 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: but let us not diminish the accomplishments of Ellen Sirlief Johnson, 545 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 1: who took over a war torn country and has had 546 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: to literally like rebuild Liberia even in terms of just 547 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 1: getting basic necessities like water and power to places. Um. 548 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: So she's also one who is following the pattern of 549 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: women coming into power during phases of massive instability. Um. 550 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 1: And she's another one who deserves her own podcast because 551 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: her path to the presidency also included having to go 552 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: into political exile and almost being killed more than once, 553 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: I believe, going to Harvard, and all sorts of things. Yeah, 554 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: so quite a distinguished list. She's not someone who would 555 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: be satisfied with a six hour booze cruise stint of 556 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: a president thing. No. Um. But when we come right 557 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: back from a quick break, we're going to get into 558 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: the heart of this discussion, which is why presidencies are 559 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: so elusive. So one source that we spent a lot 560 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: of time with in preparation for this episode is a 561 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 1: book by Farita Gelos called Shattered, Cracked, or Firmly Intact 562 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: Women and the Executive Glass Ceiling, and Gelos, in speaking 563 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: to Vox, said that the fact remains that almost never 564 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: do women actually win their election contest and they're running 565 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: for presidencies, and that seems bleak, and that seems to 566 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: go against all of these things we've been talking about 567 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: with women being able to attain positions of leadership. Also, 568 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: she's not just talking about American presidencies. We're talking about 569 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: anywhere on the planet almost never. And I would just 570 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: like to point out, and I mean we we kind 571 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: of said this at the top of the podcast, but 572 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: reading Jeels's scholarship and her writing on this topic kind 573 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: of blew my mind. And uh, she pointed out a 574 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: lot of things I just had not considered, such as well, 575 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: I mean just such as in my mind when I 576 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: think of female leadership, I had never really separated prime 577 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: ministers from presidents. I had not taken into account how 578 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: those different and of course those governmental systems work differently. 579 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: I had just never taken the time to think about 580 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: how that would affect women in leadership, right, and differences 581 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: between heads of state and heads of government, and whether 582 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: you have a shared prime ministership and presidency or like 583 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: in the United States, you have the sole president and 584 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: commander in chief, and the president is usually almost always 585 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: the head of government. And because of that, female presidents 586 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: are simply walking talking law enacting gender norm violators. Yeah, 587 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: so that's like our podcast mascot exactly exactly. The gender 588 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: police are about to run out and write her a ticket, 589 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: except they'd be like, oh, wait, no, we can't because 590 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: you're president. I don't know how this works. Um. So 591 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: another person who was talking to Vox about this was 592 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: Bulloit professor Georgia Dwhere's Laity, who's also studied um this 593 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: curious question of gender and presidencies, And she said, quote, 594 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: executive power is characterized by unity of command, hierarchical arrangements, 595 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: and with centralized control, a capacity to act quickly and 596 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 1: decisively when circumstances dictate. These factors create circumstances in which 597 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: women are understood as other in contrast to a masculine norm, 598 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: and they do so in a way that it's predictable 599 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: inside gender ideology. And you know, this makes me think 600 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: of Caroline how Trump says that Hillary Clinton doesn't have 601 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: that presidential Look. Oh, I mean to me, that just 602 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: was him being a jerk and commenting on her appearance. 603 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: But you're totally right, um. And you know what, bells 604 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: went off in my head when you said the word hierarchical, 605 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: because that made me think of our episode that we 606 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: did on Man's Plaining, where we kind of did a 607 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: deep dive into gendered communication and the ways that we 608 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: are sort of socialized to speak and interact and how 609 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: uh stereotypically uh and in general, boys and men are 610 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: socialized to sort of communicate in a way that exerts 611 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: a hierarchical structure to say, like who's who's the main 612 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: boy in in the group and the friend group. God, 613 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: I would love to see a boy say I'm the 614 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 1: main boy. I'm the main boy. Um. Yeah, So men 615 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: tend to speak in a more assertive style. Women tend 616 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: to speak in a more affiliate of style, especially in 617 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 1: professional context. Exactly, you know, Trump wants to be the 618 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: main boy that's always ever wanted. Um. But here here's 619 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: the thing too, so shattered, cracked or firmly intact. FRIEDA. 620 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: Jelal's Ice book is really just a huge study peeling 621 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: apart why there is this executive gender gap. And she 622 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 1: discovered that if you look at male heads of state 623 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: and female head of state, women are just as educationally 624 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: and politically qualified and credentialed to hold executive offices as men, 625 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: So it's not like women just aren't bringing the right 626 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: skill sets to the table. Rather, she writes, the gendered 627 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: nature of executive office still typically promotes men instead of women. 628 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: So here we have some unconscious bias. Despite their impressive 629 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: educational backgrounds, professional experience, and associations with politically active families, 630 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: women remain under represented at the highest levels of power 631 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: everywhere everywhere because what they are square pegs and around whole, 632 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: they don't fit what we think of as someone who 633 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: is presidential and able to lead. Yeah, I mean that 634 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: it's that gendered nature of executive office promotes men instead 635 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 1: of women because of what Dare Lady was saying about 636 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: how that executive power or is so thoroughly masculine gendered. So, 637 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: whether we are conscious of it or not, that often 638 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,800 Speaker 1: is what happens. Although there are some prime conditions for 639 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: women to reach executive office, like really, if Hillary had 640 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: wanted to sail into office a that never would have happened, 641 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: because the worst thing about her is that her last 642 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: name is Clinton. You could argue even more so than 643 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: the fact that she has a vagina um. But if 644 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,360 Speaker 1: say we were in the depths of uh the Great Depression, 645 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: maybe maybe she'd have an easier time of it because 646 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:44,280 Speaker 1: chaos um as chaos. Yeah, but but first, but first, 647 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: what would have really helped is if the United States 648 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: were a parliamentary system and not a presidential system, because 649 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 1: if you have a parliament, the party's vote for prime minister, 650 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,399 Speaker 1: whereas the public votes for president. Yes, I mean, think 651 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: of Justin Trudeau. Everyone's the global crush. Well, I'm sorry, 652 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm speaking for a lot of people the entire globe. 653 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 1: I'm definitely speaking for me. Um Like, that's that's how 654 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: I say we. I want to say we. That's how 655 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: we wound up with Justin Trudeau. Hi, Canada. We we 656 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: have we love him, we we think about him often wistfully. Gosh, 657 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: can you just imagine he's walked in pride parades? Dude? 658 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: What other like? Come on, you know who also has 659 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,879 Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm not basing this on anything, but other 660 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: than his rad nous, I'm sure Obama has and Clinton 661 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 1: has to Hillary Clinton. Yeah, but I mean, I'm just 662 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: saying current leaders Justin Trudeau. True dat, true, true, true dat. Yeah. 663 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: So basically, the bottom line when it comes to a 664 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: parliamentary system, as far as women are concerned is the 665 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 1: more dispersed the executive power is, the more conducive it 666 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: is for women to be leaders. Yeah, and also to 667 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,439 Speaker 1: winning a prime ministership is more of a process of 668 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: that coalition building and consensus cultivating, which is more feminine 669 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: coded rather than the more masculine coded knockdown, drag out election. 670 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,439 Speaker 1: So if you are really gunning for presidency, as long 671 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,320 Speaker 1: as you're essentially a figurehead, because there are some states 672 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: where the prime minister holds more power than the president, 673 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: then hey, ladies, come on down um or find a 674 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: natural disaster or some kind of horrific just cultural or 675 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: societal collapse and go there because of the glass cliff, because, 676 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,479 Speaker 1: like we've said a number of times now, just as 677 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: happens in corporations, women are likelier to take power in 678 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,359 Speaker 1: periods of instability. And we even have stats on this. Yes, 679 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: So Pamela Paxton and Melanie Hughes wrote in When Men, 680 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: Politics and Power that of women came to power after 681 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: after a period of political transition, forty five percent came 682 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: to power in countries with a recent history of instability, 683 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 1: and thirty three percent after a military takeover. I feel 684 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 1: like you could argue that this campaign in America itself 685 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:25,239 Speaker 1: has been a period of chaos and instabilities, right, one 686 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,439 Speaker 1: would think it would lead it lend itself quite well 687 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: to a woman. Yeah maybe, Um, I don't know, like 688 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: Amy Poehler and Jessica Williams should just swoop in and 689 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: just take everything and become our our leaders insteady um 690 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 1: and Swedish listeners. I'm curious as to whether this stability 691 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 1: factor is also why y'all, as gender progressive as you 692 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: are have never had a female prime minister, because that 693 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: was surprising to me to see like in Scandinavia, like, 694 00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,280 Speaker 1: oh of course you have, Oh no, no, well yeah, because, 695 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: like we've talked about, if there's no chaos or upset 696 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: of the traditional system the people, whether you're in a company, 697 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: a corporation or voting for a world uh countries leader, 698 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 1: you wouldn't feel the need to mix up the game 699 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: basically at that stage. Also, nepotism a huge help. I 700 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: mean we've already mentioned that. Has it applied to in 701 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: Dear Gandhi um. In Argentina, Christina Fernandez de Kirschner was 702 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,919 Speaker 1: married to the former President Um. Same thing happened in 703 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,880 Speaker 1: Guiana with Janet Jagen. And there's even a term called 704 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: widows succession, which is that super common practice both in 705 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: executive offices. But we also see this all the way 706 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:55,800 Speaker 1: down the ballot of women filling their deceased husband's seats. 707 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: And that was in the United States at least, that 708 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 1: was how women for tiptoed their way into political office. Um. 709 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 1: So the first women who uh were in Congress were 710 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,799 Speaker 1: there because their husbands were there first and died. So 711 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: it took a while for us to outright elect a woman. Right. 712 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: But another mark that you can put under Ellen, sir 713 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 1: leif Johnson's coolness column is that she did not, is 714 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: that her leadership did not depend on a male relative. 715 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,000 Speaker 1: She got in there by virtue of her own general awesomeness. 716 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: I imagine her coolness column is so long, um, But 717 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 1: get this, jeel as I found that those political family connections, 718 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:48,359 Speaker 1: whether you have a widows succession or UH father who 719 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: was in office, regardless, those connections are the statistically largest 720 00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: gender gap between male and female political executives. So if 721 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:06,240 Speaker 1: you're looking for the factor that separates the two the most, 722 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 1: it is that women far and away get into office 723 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: um with the help of family. More so than men. 724 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 1: And I would also say that that is more evidence 725 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: of the challenge for women and also the sexism that 726 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,320 Speaker 1: it's like we need, we need a dude we're related 727 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,919 Speaker 1: to to kind of prove, like, you know, well he'll 728 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: be okay. I think that's why it's interesting in this 729 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 1: country because you have George W. Bush becoming president after 730 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: his father, two men. But Hillary Clinton is getting a 731 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,959 Speaker 1: lot of criticism and flak based on her husband's role 732 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 1: in this country's leadership, right because you know, a lot 733 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: of that has to do with Bill Clinton's policy and 734 00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 1: also his extracurriculars, yes, being a straight up liability for her. 735 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:08,799 Speaker 1: And keep in mind too, how um George W. Was 736 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:14,400 Speaker 1: often mocked for being just you know, George seniors little boy. 737 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 1: You know in a way that main boy. I'm the 738 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:23,840 Speaker 1: main boy. That was actually Jeb Bush crying at home. Um. 739 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,200 Speaker 1: Do you remember when we thought it would be Jeb 740 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,880 Speaker 1: and Hillary. Do you remember we talked about his wakam 741 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 1: that he made on Sundays, Please clap. I never knew 742 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,920 Speaker 1: those could be the good old days. Um. But but 743 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: an interesting gender dynamic there where it is a penalty 744 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: in a way for a guy to take over from 745 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,759 Speaker 1: his dad. But if you are a woman, that's a 746 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,000 Speaker 1: leg up for you. Yeah, it's expected like, oh, well 747 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: a woman needs the extra help of having the family connection. 748 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: Oh but if the man uses the family connection, what's 749 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,440 Speaker 1: wrong with you? Yeah, you must be weak. Um. But 750 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: even being one of the most powerful people in your country, 751 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 1: if you make it through, regardless of family connections or not, 752 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: and you become the prime minister, president, what have you? 753 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,719 Speaker 1: That does not inoculate you from sexism. In fact, it 754 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:26,319 Speaker 1: might invite even more sexism. Would have guessed every and 755 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,719 Speaker 1: this was something that dr grow over in Norway. Uh. 756 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Bruntland wrote about in her autobiography in terms 757 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,760 Speaker 1: of how she essentially hoped that she would bear the 758 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,520 Speaker 1: brunt Land so to speak of the sexism, saying, quote, 759 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,440 Speaker 1: next time a woman becomes party leader or Prime Minister 760 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,359 Speaker 1: of Norway, maybe many years from now, she will not 761 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: meet the same problems I had. I have to tolerate, 762 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,160 Speaker 1: have to live with this uncomfortable atmosphere because I am 763 00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,800 Speaker 1: the first it's my duty just to tolerate it. Next 764 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,480 Speaker 1: time it will be easier for another woman. But then 765 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 1: that's the question, will there be another woman and how 766 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: long will it take? And I don't want to get 767 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,759 Speaker 1: ahead of myself because next up we have a Samantha 768 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: By montage. Yeah, I'm telling you. This episode of Samantha By, 769 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:23,360 Speaker 1: where she talks to female world leaders, in addition to 770 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 1: the freaking always delightful Madeline all Bright Um was so 771 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,719 Speaker 1: interesting but like so much of what Samantha By talks about, 772 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:36,320 Speaker 1: also so deeply depressing. Um. She talked to Michelle Bachelet, 773 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: the Chilean President, who said, I have seen misogyny come down, 774 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,279 Speaker 1: but it didn't disappear. She did admit that if she 775 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:49,080 Speaker 1: shows too much emotion, she's hysterical. And then who can 776 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,640 Speaker 1: forget I had actually forgotten about this until Samantha By 777 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,239 Speaker 1: brought it up. But who can forget the flak that 778 00:53:55,360 --> 00:54:02,520 Speaker 1: Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg caught over the UH footage 779 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: of her putting her cell phone in her bra. She 780 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: was like, what she was like standing on stage, there 781 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,279 Speaker 1: was some event or whatever, and she like checked her 782 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:14,879 Speaker 1: phone and put it in her shirt. And that's not 783 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,239 Speaker 1: exactly what I would call uncommon for women to do. 784 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: And she even told Samantha Be She's like, I think 785 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,879 Speaker 1: they don't know that women just do this well. And 786 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,840 Speaker 1: before that she talked about how, especially after she first 787 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,280 Speaker 1: came into office, when she would go out with her entourage, 788 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,600 Speaker 1: people would look for the oldest man standing next to 789 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: her and assume that that was the Prime Minister. Oh yeah, 790 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,000 Speaker 1: And I mean that that story should sound super familiar 791 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,960 Speaker 1: to women really at any walk of life, in any 792 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,760 Speaker 1: career or industry that I feel like I have heard 793 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 1: about that happening to just so many women, UM, whether 794 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,920 Speaker 1: you're walking into like the U N or a boardroom 795 00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: at a company. And the thing is, we can't stop 796 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 1: with just talking about the first and the trailblazers and 797 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: the pioneers, because while important, what is even more telling 798 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,520 Speaker 1: is whether and when there will be the second. And 799 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,640 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of research in the past few 800 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:20,520 Speaker 1: years on this relatively new concept of moral licensing UM, 801 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: and a study on it, which is yet to be 802 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: published as of this recording found that quote the Obama 803 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,400 Speaker 1: presidency may have given some whites the perceived moral license 804 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 1: to express more critical attitudes about minorities. And anecdotally, I 805 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: would say, of course it. Did you know racism went 806 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,400 Speaker 1: through the roof in the United States, Well, not because 807 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,759 Speaker 1: suddenly people became racist, but because all of a sudden, oh, well, 808 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,080 Speaker 1: we have a black president, so that means that we 809 00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,799 Speaker 1: can express our racism more openly. Right, And a lot 810 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: of it had to do with um part of the 811 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,520 Speaker 1: study which showed that if a and correct me if 812 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, if a black person was in a leadership role, 813 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,759 Speaker 1: people at that company felt like, oh, I don't need 814 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,680 Speaker 1: to hire more black people because look, a black person 815 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,520 Speaker 1: has made it to the highest position at this company. Right. 816 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: We see the trailblazer as a checked box. Um. And 817 00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:25,880 Speaker 1: the concept of moral licensing is that subconsciously or sometimes consciously, uh, 818 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:30,319 Speaker 1: we pat ourselves on the back for electing, say, our 819 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:36,440 Speaker 1: first female president and have no real interest in electing 820 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,799 Speaker 1: another because it's like we've been through this. We've elected 821 00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,840 Speaker 1: a female president, y'all have done it. Okay, so back 822 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,319 Speaker 1: to business as usual. You know, why do we need 823 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,040 Speaker 1: to reinvent this wheel? And you see it happen a 824 00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,319 Speaker 1: lot of times. Like we said at the top of 825 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,480 Speaker 1: the podcast, most of the women who have been heads 826 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,520 Speaker 1: of state have been the only female heads of state 827 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,120 Speaker 1: in their country. Well, and is this not something that 828 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,080 Speaker 1: we've addressed multiple times on the podcast, especially when we 829 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,760 Speaker 1: talk about women in leadership roles in the business world, 830 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: about how trickle down feminism is not really a thing. 831 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,239 Speaker 1: Just because you have a woman's CEO, just because you 832 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,560 Speaker 1: have a Marissa Meyer or a Cheryl Sandberg, that does 833 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,919 Speaker 1: not mean that there is equality in general. That does 834 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,440 Speaker 1: not mean that we have no more need for feminism 835 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: that sexism is over all. That indicates well, as we've 836 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,120 Speaker 1: talked about, that probably indicates that there's been a little 837 00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,520 Speaker 1: bit of chaos and some glass cliff stuff going on. 838 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,160 Speaker 1: But all that indicates is that that woman was able 839 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,800 Speaker 1: to get into that position. It does not indicate anything 840 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,960 Speaker 1: else positive about the company or about our culture. Yeah, 841 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: I mean, and that in no way is to diminish 842 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:53,680 Speaker 1: the powerful role modeling effect and the powerful optics of 843 00:57:53,760 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 1: having a black president and our first female president. Absolutely. Um, 844 00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,880 Speaker 1: but we can't then sit down and congratulate ourselves and 845 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:10,280 Speaker 1: go on. And I predict that similar to what happened 846 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:15,520 Speaker 1: during the Obama administration, we are going to see in 847 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:21,000 Speaker 1: the next four years, possibly eight, uh, a tidal wave 848 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:26,160 Speaker 1: of sexism and misogyny. You know, we ain't seen nothing yet. Yeah, 849 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,480 Speaker 1: Because I mean, I feel like so often women on 850 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,760 Speaker 1: line are already silenced with the refrain of like, what 851 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,720 Speaker 1: do you have to complain about? You have everything you 852 00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,040 Speaker 1: could possibly need. What are you complaining about? Inequality four 853 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: that doesn't really exist. You're just making it up to 854 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:46,360 Speaker 1: victimize yourself. You have a female president, what else do 855 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,919 Speaker 1: you want? You've got a black president. What else could 856 00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:53,800 Speaker 1: you need? All lives matter? Oh yeah, it's moral licensing. Yeah, 857 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:59,000 Speaker 1: and it allows people who are so inclined to skip 858 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:03,200 Speaker 1: over the very real facts that a black leader or 859 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:09,040 Speaker 1: a female leader, uh, does not equate to policies that 860 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,080 Speaker 1: help you and me, that help the average person who 861 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, trying to live his or her life. It 862 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,920 Speaker 1: does not necessarily mean that the entire group that is 863 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 1: represented by that person, or presumed to be represented by 864 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:28,760 Speaker 1: that person, has made great advances socially. And there is 865 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,000 Speaker 1: one person, one final person though, from that Samantha by Montage, 866 00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:35,840 Speaker 1: that we should mention um who is Hilda Heinie, who 867 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,960 Speaker 1: is the president of the Marshall Islands. And she was 868 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,040 Speaker 1: the one woman that Samantha b spoke to who was 869 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,960 Speaker 1: like it's great, Like I really don't get any flak 870 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,680 Speaker 1: from you know, the few people who live in the 871 00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,320 Speaker 1: Marshall islands um for being a woman. She's like, yeah, 872 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,880 Speaker 1: they just they mainly complain about policies. And Samantha By 873 00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,880 Speaker 1: is astonished and she says, how how is that the case? 874 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,400 Speaker 1: And she says, welcome here to you know, say your 875 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:07,680 Speaker 1: your country. We're just a lot more gender equitable. And 876 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:13,640 Speaker 1: there it is, ladies and gentlemen. So listeners, if you're 877 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,320 Speaker 1: in the United States and you're listening to this podcast 878 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:21,600 Speaker 1: when it is coming out, go vote if you haven't already. Uh. 879 01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,600 Speaker 1: And if you're listening to this in the line for voting, 880 01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:30,400 Speaker 1: good for you. Stay in that line, um, and we 881 01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. We're really hoping to hear 882 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,880 Speaker 1: from a lot of our international listeners for this as well, 883 01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,680 Speaker 1: because y'all have been watching this wild election season in 884 01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,280 Speaker 1: the US too. But we also want to know how 885 01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,160 Speaker 1: all of this relates to the situation where you live. 886 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,960 Speaker 1: Let me tell you. When I turned in my voter 887 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,760 Speaker 1: card when I went to go early vote, I literally 888 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,320 Speaker 1: skipped to the poll worker who was by the door 889 01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:00,400 Speaker 1: collecting the cars. I wish I could have seen that, mom. 890 01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,720 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is where you 891 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,800 Speaker 1: can send us to your letters. You can also tweet 892 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,920 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and 893 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:09,880 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you 894 01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:17,800 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. Well, 895 01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,880 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from a listener who would 896 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 1: like to remain anonymous, in response to our episode on 897 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,760 Speaker 1: villain Ness's, but also in response to an old episode 898 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,160 Speaker 1: we did on Kleptomania. She says, while listening to your 899 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,480 Speaker 1: podcast on Villain's excellent job with the divine name drop, 900 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,120 Speaker 1: thank you. I heard you mentioned an older episode on Kleptomania. 901 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,040 Speaker 1: Having dealt with an adolescent arrest for stealing and some 902 01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,280 Speaker 1: recent sticky fingers, I was quite intrigued as to what 903 01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,840 Speaker 1: you had to say about the subject. You hit so 904 01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: close to home that you may as well have recorded 905 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,640 Speaker 1: the episode from my living room. I have a history 906 01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,240 Speaker 1: of being treated for clinical depression with therapy as far 907 01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,080 Speaker 1: back as preschool and started with medication in either the 908 01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,000 Speaker 1: second or third grade. I don't remember what compelled me 909 01:01:58,040 --> 01:01:59,920 Speaker 1: to steal when I was a young teen, but I 910 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,680 Speaker 1: will say that I have a sensory processing disorder that 911 01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,400 Speaker 1: went undiagnosed for the first twenty seven years of my life. 912 01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,440 Speaker 1: As my mom would say, I always looked uncomfortable. Controlling 913 01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:11,800 Speaker 1: what I was capable of was very important to me, 914 01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,520 Speaker 1: as so many things out of my control were so distressing. Well, 915 01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,040 Speaker 1: I never made the connection before about control, my psych 916 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,960 Speaker 1: history and stealing. It makes a lot of sense as 917 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,439 Speaker 1: to where the urge came from. Mostly at the time 918 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,680 Speaker 1: I was stealing items like beauty products and such. Ironically, 919 01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,080 Speaker 1: the only time I got caught and subsequently arrested was 920 01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,680 Speaker 1: when I was stealing something for someone else. Fast forward 921 01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,200 Speaker 1: thirteen years and I find myself stealing the same type 922 01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,880 Speaker 1: of products again. The most recent incident happened so quickly 923 01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:40,320 Speaker 1: and as soon as I had left the store, I 924 01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,840 Speaker 1: started to cry and panic. I had no idea what 925 01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,640 Speaker 1: compelled me to do such a thing. After listening to 926 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:47,840 Speaker 1: the episode, I was able to confirm what my gut 927 01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:49,960 Speaker 1: has been telling me that the cause of my recent 928 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,640 Speaker 1: sticky fingers is distress over a very sudden, sick and 929 01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:56,720 Speaker 1: possibly terminal family member. I had never thought of what 930 01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,560 Speaker 1: I was doing as actual kleptomania, but after listening to 931 01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,360 Speaker 1: you both to discussing the disorder, it clicked. I intend 932 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,440 Speaker 1: to bring this up with my mental health care providers. 933 01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,440 Speaker 1: And see what I can do to be in control 934 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,439 Speaker 1: when I find myself compelled to steal. I also want 935 01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:12,920 Speaker 1: to let it be known that despite a lifetime of 936 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,479 Speaker 1: dealing with mental health issues, I am a functional member 937 01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,400 Speaker 1: of society while doing a decent job of adult ing. 938 01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,560 Speaker 1: I have an advanced degree and work in healthcare. I'm married, 939 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,160 Speaker 1: and I have a wonderful social life. Thanks so much 940 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,320 Speaker 1: for the reference in your Villains episode and for the 941 01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,160 Speaker 1: podcast in general. You two have brought me many hours 942 01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,120 Speaker 1: of enjoyment, with one of my favorite self care activities 943 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,520 Speaker 1: being a bubble bath and listening to two of my 944 01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,520 Speaker 1: favorite fellow feminists. Well, lady, I am glad that you 945 01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,479 Speaker 1: were able to listen to the episode and get help. Well, 946 01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,880 Speaker 1: I have a lot of here about our episode on Villainesses, 947 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,160 Speaker 1: with a Maleficent correction, which I believe we received from 948 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:54,840 Speaker 1: a few people. So Sarah writes, I wanted to make 949 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:59,040 Speaker 1: a point on your coverage of the Angelina Jolie Maleficent, 950 01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,480 Speaker 1: which I watched while handing out candy this weekend. In 951 01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,880 Speaker 1: the movie, it's not just that Maleficent has her heartbroken 952 01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,120 Speaker 1: by a man, which is sad, yes, but as you 953 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,560 Speaker 1: stated in the episode. It's a kind of blow background story. 954 01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,880 Speaker 1: The man who breaks her heart drugs her and cuts 955 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,040 Speaker 1: her wings off her back so he can return them 956 01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:20,160 Speaker 1: to the king she's fighting against, etcetera, etcetera, to further 957 01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:23,520 Speaker 1: his own political career in the Human Kingdom. Maleficent is 958 01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:26,960 Speaker 1: drug and as her body assaulted, she loses her ability 959 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,560 Speaker 1: to fly, and the heartrending scene where she wakes up 960 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,600 Speaker 1: from her drugged stupor to find her body mutilated hit 961 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:34,680 Speaker 1: me right in the gut. I'm sure I was not 962 01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,560 Speaker 1: alone in reading that assault as rape. I viewed Maleficent's 963 01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,480 Speaker 1: revenge motives as rooted in a woman's attempt to recover 964 01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,200 Speaker 1: her bodily autonomy as well as punish her assailant. I 965 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,120 Speaker 1: read them two thousand fourteen Maleficent, with all of the 966 01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,880 Speaker 1: Gloria's contouring, as a story of trauma and recovery, which 967 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:57,360 Speaker 1: made Maleficent as a character heartbreaking, lee relatable. Thank you 968 01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,880 Speaker 1: so much for reminding me of that, Sarah. I Maleficent 969 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 1: on a plane, which might explain why I didn't recall 970 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:08,880 Speaker 1: that part, but it's so true, and now that you're 971 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:13,080 Speaker 1: talking about it, I remember that scene and it was heartbreaking. Indeed, 972 01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,240 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who sent us your letters and 973 01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:18,840 Speaker 1: corrections and if you have something to share with us, 974 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,160 Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is where 975 01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,760 Speaker 1: you can send them and for links to all of 976 01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:25,800 Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, 977 01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,000 Speaker 1: videos and podcasts with our sources so you can learn 978 01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:33,400 Speaker 1: even more about Madam President's head on over to stuff 979 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:39,600 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com. For more on this 980 01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,480 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works dot 981 01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:50,400 Speaker 1: com