Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 2: Joey, welcome back to the show. It's so nice to
Speaker 2: see you.
Speaker 3: Okay, Bridget, it's nice to you too.
Speaker 1: So before folks ask if my voice sounds a little different,
Speaker 1: it's because I'm a bit under the weather. I've been
Speaker 1: saving my voice all day. This is the first time
Speaker 1: that I've really spoken out loud all day.
Speaker 2: So hopefully it'll agree with us for me to record this.
Speaker 1: But if you're thinking, oh, Bridget sounds raspy or husky,
Speaker 1: that's what's going on.
Speaker 2: So bear with me. Joey.
Speaker 1: I want to start with a question. I know it
Speaker 1: has been a weird week. January is also that month,
Speaker 1: at least for me, that it feels like nothing is right.
Speaker 1: Everybody is broke, tired, cold, sober. If you're doing a
Speaker 1: dry January. All of that said, is there something on
Speaker 1: the internet that is giving you joy in this moment?
Speaker 4: Oh, that's a good question. There's definitely a lot that
Speaker 4: is stressing me out right now. But oh my god,
Speaker 4: there was this TikTok trend recently that was I can't
Speaker 4: remember who it was, but it was like this clip
Speaker 4: from the View and it was the person like, you
Speaker 4: know what, it was the clip of somebody going Donald Trump,
Speaker 4: if you pick out.
Speaker 1: All the like, my gosh, whatever, it's Kelly Osbourne. I
Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about. Oh my god, I'm
Speaker 1: still glad that you brought this up. It's Kelly Osbourne's
Speaker 1: are going like, if you kicked, if you click out
Speaker 1: all out of this country, who is going.
Speaker 2: To scrub your Toilet's Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: So it was like people doing that meme, but like
Speaker 4: different formats, but you know, there were just there were
Speaker 4: a lot of fun ones going around.
Speaker 3: Love a good trend.
Speaker 1: That is one of those pop culture moments that lives
Speaker 1: in my mind, rent Free. I also love the reaction
Speaker 1: of all the different people at the View because Kelly
Speaker 1: Osborne says it, and she says that very you can
Speaker 1: tell that she was like trying to make a point
Speaker 1: that like didn't land and immediately everybody's like, oh no,
Speaker 1: and she's like no, but in the sense that and
Speaker 1: they're just like, uh no.
Speaker 2: And I just read this interview with her.
Speaker 1: About that moment because it's been taking off on TikTok
Speaker 1: and honestly, like, we'll throw the link to the interview
Speaker 1: in the show notes if I can find it. But
Speaker 1: she's like, you know, sometimes you have to learn in public.
Speaker 1: And I know the point that I was trying to
Speaker 1: make and maybe it didn't land, but you know, you
Speaker 1: have to grow sometimes. And I appreciated how she handled it.
Speaker 1: And I did see a TikTok where somebody made the
Speaker 1: point that she was trying to make more succinctly. They
Speaker 1: were like, well, if you kick out all of the
Speaker 1: immigrants in this country, that is going to be impactful
Speaker 1: to all of us, because immigrants bring give so much
Speaker 1: to our country, and actually, like we should be respectful
Speaker 1: and honor the different ways that their labor makes our
Speaker 1: country great. And then in his version, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that actually makes sense. So she was trying to make
Speaker 1: a point. The point didn't land, but it is a
Speaker 1: pop culture moment that will stick with me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, that was so funny, and that's good
Speaker 3: to hear that.
Speaker 4: At least it seems like she's handling it, you know,
Speaker 4: with grace to something I said, because yeah, that is
Speaker 4: that is like a you know I'm not gonna say
Speaker 4: that when she said wasn't wrong, that was definitely a
Speaker 4: weird thing to say, But.
Speaker 3: You know, we all got to Maiger mistakes and grow.
Speaker 4: And I do also agree with the point where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 4: we you know, there's a conversation about the like labor
Speaker 4: that goes unnoticed and particularly like jobs that people you
Speaker 4: know don't necessarily.
Speaker 3: Want to have, and immigration and all that, and that's
Speaker 3: definitely a.
Speaker 4: Conversation if you had so yeah, but got a fun
Speaker 4: TikTok trend out of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel I.
Speaker 1: Mean, as podcasters, having to grow in public and learn
Speaker 1: stuff in public has been part of the So I
Speaker 1: definitely feel for Kelly Osbourne of oh yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I embarrassed myself and a lot of people probably heard
Speaker 1: it and that was that was humbling.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I like I could not imagine like having
Speaker 4: to be on live TV like this is very closely edited.
Speaker 4: I'm definitely grateful for that because there's a lot of
Speaker 4: times when I'm like I need to like stop and think.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, Joey.
Speaker 1: If you're like listeners, if you're ever listening and you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: I can't believe Bridget or Mike or one of the
Speaker 1: guests was able to say that so eloquently on the fly.
Speaker 2: It's because we didn't. That is the magic of Joey
Speaker 2: and our other editor, Tari, making us sound smarter and
Speaker 2: more eloquent than we are on the fly if this
Speaker 2: was live TV. Never absolutely not. And also want to
Speaker 2: show like.
Speaker 1: The view where the whole point is you're sort of
Speaker 1: arguing and like talking over each other and having discourse.
Speaker 1: I would have to be like, everybody be quiet so
Speaker 1: I can catch my thoughts, like, so I can get
Speaker 1: my thoughts together every five minutes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: Okay, So this election season fully kicked off. The New
Speaker 1: Humpshire primary appened this week and some voters got a
Speaker 1: call at the very last minute from someone giving them
Speaker 1: information about the election.
Speaker 5: You know the value of voting democratic on our vote's count,
Speaker 5: It's important that you save your vote for the November election.
Speaker 5: Will need your help in electing Democrats up and down
Speaker 5: the ticket. Voting this Tuesday only enables the Republicans in
Speaker 5: their quest to elect Donald Trump again. Your vote makes
Speaker 5: a difference in November, not just Tuesday. If you would
Speaker 5: like to be removed from future calls please press two.
Speaker 1: So that sounded like Joe Biden, but that was not
Speaker 1: Joe Biden. That was an AI generated audio deep fake
Speaker 1: that voters in New Hampshire before this week's primary got
Speaker 1: on the phone telling them not to vote. And I
Speaker 1: don't have a ton to say about this that I
Speaker 1: have not already said, but I'll just reiterate it does
Speaker 1: not vode well for the use of AI to spread
Speaker 1: disinformation and make that impact a lot worse this election cycle.
Speaker 1: This is something that I'm worried about thinking about all
Speaker 1: of the folks who I am in community with who
Speaker 1: also study and work on disan misinformation, particularly how it
Speaker 1: impacts democracies, are all sort of saying the same thing,
Speaker 1: which is that AI could be poised to really make disinformation,
Speaker 1: which is already a problem so much, so much worse.
Speaker 1: And what's worse is that we're not really doing a
Speaker 1: ton about it right now. The nonprofit consumer advocacy group
Speaker 1: Public Citizen says that that robo call really underscores the
Speaker 1: need for federal regulation of AI generated deep fakes and
Speaker 1: that it is way past time for action. I completely agree,
Speaker 1: but this comes as Republican SEC Chairman Sean Cooksey says
Speaker 1: that they're not even looking at establishing any kind of
Speaker 1: updated rules federally around deep fakes and political ads. At
Speaker 1: the earliest, they're going to do it early summer, which
Speaker 1: that is after many states have their primary. So it
Speaker 1: just seems pretty late to be like, oh, we will
Speaker 1: be rolling out in summertime, you know, after states have
Speaker 1: already held their primaries. Feels pretty late in the game
Speaker 1: to be trying to curb the impact.
Speaker 2: Of this kind of thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad you opened with the positive question because
Speaker 4: I do feel like, I think because the primary started now,
Speaker 4: like the reality of the fact that there's going to
Speaker 4: be an election this year has like started to hit
Speaker 4: and it's just been like.
Speaker 3: Absolute terror every time I think.
Speaker 4: About it, Like there really is no kind of good
Speaker 4: outcome I could see right now.
Speaker 3: Not to be.
Speaker 4: Complete pestmost, but yeah, I know, I feel like this
Speaker 4: is going to be a weird, weird year.
Speaker 2: Friend, don't even get me started.
Speaker 1: I it's one of those things that if I I've
Speaker 1: told myself that I'm not going to start really thinking
Speaker 1: about the election in earnest in a meaningful way until summer, Like.
Speaker 2: I guess I'm kind of like the fec here. I'm
Speaker 2: like I because if I start thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Now, there's plenty of time for me to spin out
Speaker 1: and doom and gloom. Everybody that I know who works
Speaker 1: on these issues is having almost a sort of like
Speaker 1: philosophical crisis around the upcoming election. I genuinely don't know
Speaker 1: how it is going to go. We are very worried
Speaker 1: as a community. And it's so weird because I remember
Speaker 1: when we were preparing in the like Disinfo Election Disinfo
Speaker 1: Democracy space, preparing for the last election. We were gaming
Speaker 1: out all the different scenarios, and I will never forget
Speaker 1: one of the scenarios that we were gaming out was
Speaker 1: some sort of a so it was like, oh, if
Speaker 1: Trump wins, here's the plan. If Trump loses, here's the plan.
Speaker 1: And then a third thing that was like if there
Speaker 1: is a widespread election related incident flash irregularity. And at
Speaker 1: the time, like we didn't know what we were preparing for.
Speaker 1: Turns out it was January sixth. That was very precient. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like we're there all over again.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, God, that's so weird to think that
Speaker 4: that was like, yeah, there was the election, and then
Speaker 4: that I don't know, I feel like it all kind
Speaker 4: of blurs together. But yeah, that was such a crazy
Speaker 4: time and it's definitely gonna be an interesting next couple
Speaker 4: of months. Yeah, not looking forward to it. I I'm
Speaker 4: not surprised to hear that people are having their own
Speaker 4: kind of crisisies around it.
Speaker 1: This might be like, like too personal. But during that election,
Speaker 1: my dad, who is chronically ill and disabled, he was
Speaker 1: in the hospital and I went to I dropped everything
Speaker 1: all the election work to go be with him in
Speaker 1: the hospital. And it was a cognitive issue and so
Speaker 1: he was, you know, not awake, was asleep for a
Speaker 1: lot of that time, resting, and we were watching it
Speaker 1: was it was election night, right, and so we were
Speaker 1: watching the election results in his hospital room. And so
Speaker 1: he woke up from this like drugged up, medically induced
Speaker 1: sleep to seeing Donald Trump on television the day after
Speaker 1: the election claiming that he had won, and my dad
Speaker 1: was like what, like what did I miss it?
Speaker 2: Did he win? And I remember being like, Dad, I know.
Speaker 1: It looks like the the how where I would have
Speaker 1: to start to be like why are you why you
Speaker 1: are watching Donald Trump on CNN claiming that he won
Speaker 1: an election, and he being like he didn't win.
Speaker 2: Don't worry.
Speaker 1: I know it seems like he did because what you're
Speaker 1: seeing on TV, but just take my word for it,
Speaker 1: he didn't.
Speaker 2: It was a very weird time, I guess, is what
Speaker 2: I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that's sounds like a crazy conversation.
Speaker 1: So, you know, thinking about how I feel, and you know,
Speaker 1: civil society groups who are looking at this really feel
Speaker 1: like not enough is being done. If there was a
Speaker 1: theme to this episode, it would be do something, listen
Speaker 1: to people, don't wait till it's too late.
Speaker 2: It feels like it's becoming too late.
Speaker 1: And another way that we are seeing that this week
Speaker 1: is through non consensual AI generated sexually explicit deep fake.
Speaker 1: So last week on the News round Up, Mike and
Speaker 1: I were talking about this New Jersey high school student
Speaker 1: who has been advocating for legislation that criminalizes non consensual
Speaker 1: AI deep fakes after the boys in her class were
Speaker 1: trading deep fake sexualized images of her and about thirty
Speaker 1: other girls in her school. And this week, a school
Speaker 1: district in Aurora, Colorado, is dealing with the very same thing.
Speaker 1: This week, the Aurora Police Department has released the names
Speaker 1: of schools involved in a sextortion investigation, which includes two
Speaker 1: middle schools. When I was in middle school that was
Speaker 1: grade six to eight. So like, you're like eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
Speaker 1: you are so young to be dealing with the impacts
Speaker 1: of a sexually charged deep fake sextortion ring. Like, I
Speaker 1: don't think it is okay for kids to be having
Speaker 1: to deal with this. So police say that in six
Speaker 1: different instances, students at that school district reported being a
Speaker 1: direct target of sextortion scheme after being contacted by the
Speaker 1: suspect or suspects through Instagram. In dozens of other cases,
Speaker 1: students received unsolicited invitations to pay to join a close
Speaker 1: friends list on Instagram where sexually explicit material had been posted.
Speaker 1: So it really is a marketplace where kids are either
Speaker 1: being invited to pay to get this sexual content or
Speaker 1: being made to pay to keep that content from being
Speaker 1: shared on these platforms. A nightmare. And again, like, I
Speaker 1: don't think this is something that should just become normalized
Speaker 1: for our kids. If we did another update every single
Speaker 1: time one of these AI related sextortion rings was reported
Speaker 1: on in a different school district across the country, it
Speaker 1: would be all we talked about. Because it is happening
Speaker 1: so much. This should not become a normal thing for
Speaker 1: our kids, and it seems like it is becoming normal,
Speaker 1: and lawmakers are just dragging their feet to actually do
Speaker 1: anything to prevent this from becoming a new thing that
Speaker 1: kids just have to deal with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's so scary and yeah, like exactly, Like
Speaker 4: I don't know. I think I was like eleven when
Speaker 4: I started middle school, Like you're a baby, that is
Speaker 4: a child, like.
Speaker 3: And I don't know, it's I was so like when
Speaker 3: I was in middle school.
Speaker 4: That was kind of like the beginning of or I
Speaker 4: guess not the beginning technically, but like social media was
Speaker 4: just kind of like becoming a thing like Instagram and Snapchat.
Speaker 3: Or like starting to become big.
Speaker 4: And I mean it's so sad because I do remember
Speaker 4: then like a lot of the conversations were about like
Speaker 4: sending nudes or like sending or like sexting or all
Speaker 4: of that, or.
Speaker 3: You know, people getting groomed online and.
Speaker 4: All of that, and it's it's it's weird now being like, wow,
Speaker 4: that all was so messed up and it is continuing
Speaker 4: to happen, and it's continuing to happen in a way
Speaker 4: that's like even more dangerous kind of and even more
Speaker 4: sort of like out of control, which just is so scary,
Speaker 4: Like I can't imagine being a kid right now, Like, yeah,
Speaker 4: that honestly just sounds terrifying.
Speaker 1: It's terrifying. And our kids should not have to be
Speaker 1: dealing with this, Like nobody should have to be dealing
Speaker 1: with this. We cannot have a healthy society when this
Speaker 1: is just tolerated and is like just becomes part of
Speaker 1: the experience of being a young person, which I just
Speaker 1: don't accept that this has to be part of that.
Speaker 6: Let's hit a quick break at our back.
Speaker 1: And this week, Taylor Swift was also targeted by non
Speaker 1: consensual deep faith images that flooded Twitter. According to Verge,
Speaker 1: these images got forty five million views, twenty four thousand reposts,
Speaker 1: and hundreds of thousands of likes and bookmarks before the
Speaker 1: verified blue checked user who shared the images had their
Speaker 1: account suspended for violating platform policy. The post was live
Speaker 1: on the platform for about seventeen hours prior to its removal.
Speaker 1: So four o four Media has this really in depth
Speaker 1: piece of reporting about how those images originated on Telegram,
Speaker 1: which if you don't know what telegram is, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like an alternative messaging platform that really gained popularity
Speaker 1: with right wing extremists, but other folks use it too,
Speaker 1: like a lot of journalists depend on it. So Twitter
Speaker 1: actually has rules that ban AI generated deep fake images,
Speaker 1: but I can confirm, as of this recording, many of
Speaker 1: those images of Taylor Swift, those deep faked, non consensual
Speaker 1: sexual explicit images, were still floating around Twitter.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The one user who brought those images from Telegram to
Speaker 1: Twitter might have had their account deleted, but they's because
Speaker 1: of the way the internet works. Plenty of them are
Speaker 1: floating around as we speak, and so the hashtag Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift ai was even trending. So you might think, like,
Speaker 1: why is Twitter allowing this? Shouldn't they do something? But
Speaker 1: remember when Elon Musk took over Twitter, one of the
Speaker 1: first things he did was gut the trust and Safety team,
Speaker 1: and content moderation there has kind of been like more
Speaker 1: or less non existent, like not totally not existent, but
Speaker 1: there's just not a lot of robust content moderation happening there.
Speaker 1: Like the fact that this could be up for seventeen
Speaker 1: hours kind of says something.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was gonna say, I I feel like at
Speaker 4: this point. Nothing, there's nothing, There's very, very little that
Speaker 4: could happen that would make me think, wow, why is
Speaker 4: Twitter allowing this? Because I know the answer is Elon
Speaker 4: Musk does not care and in fact is probably encouraging this.
Speaker 4: I will say, obviously the story is terrible and horrible.
Speaker 4: This is weirdly the second thing on my like twenty
Speaker 4: twenty four predictions.
Speaker 3: Thing that I made at the beginning of the year
Speaker 3: to happen.
Speaker 4: What twitch is, Yeah, because like I don't know if
Speaker 4: there were like tiktoks that were going around and stuff
Speaker 4: where people were like making a list and they're usually
Speaker 4: kind of goofy.
Speaker 3: And I I did one too, and one of them
Speaker 3: was I was.
Speaker 4: Like, there, I feel like there's going to be some
Speaker 4: Taylor swift Ai controversy where like explicit photos are made
Speaker 4: and she's gonna get Like, I mean, I don't We'll
Speaker 4: see where this story ends, but like you know, I
Speaker 4: believe that the Swifties is a powerful.
Speaker 3: Political force, so who's say. Yeah.
Speaker 4: The other one was that uh, Brian Gosling was gonna
Speaker 4: get ATN nominated and Marco Robbie is not going to
Speaker 4: get an obmated.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, so it has been a weird week
Speaker 3: of psychic predictions.
Speaker 1: Apparently, keep us posted if any of the of any
Speaker 1: of the other predictions, the other Joey twenty twenty four
Speaker 1: predictions come true, that one's happened to me. I predicted
Speaker 1: that this was back when he was like much more popular.
Speaker 1: I predicted that Justin Bieber was going to get caught
Speaker 1: saying the.
Speaker 2: N word, and he did.
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, yeah, so you so you said
Speaker 1: that the Swifties are this powerful force, and you are
Speaker 1: right about that because even though Elon Musk has not
Speaker 1: been able or Elon Musk and his team have not
Speaker 1: been able to rid the platform from this image these images,
Speaker 1: Swifties actually took it upon themselves to try to flood
Speaker 1: the Taylor Swift AI hashtag with real actual content of
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift performing to drive down that sexually explicit fake content.
Speaker 1: And you know, I know, the Swifties are like a
Speaker 1: big force, Like they're like an organized force for good
Speaker 1: at times, I firmly believe that like they should be
Speaker 1: being able to spend their time like you know, like
Speaker 1: they shouldn't have to do this is is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: They should be able to spend their time like buying
Speaker 1: merch and trading merch and making bracelets and all of
Speaker 1: all of the fun, the sparkly things that come that
Speaker 1: go with being a Swiftie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like they should just be allowed. Yeah, Like they
Speaker 3: should be able to just be fans of the thing.
Speaker 4: They should have to be like the PR team for
Speaker 4: the volunteer PR team for like a billionaire celebrit and
Speaker 4: not that it's on her team to like, you know
Speaker 4: that this happened, but it is like they shouldn't have
Speaker 4: to be the content moderators for Twitter probably some other
Speaker 4: way of putting it, Yeah, especially because I'm sure a
Speaker 4: lot of these people are pretty young.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you like we should it should not be up
Speaker 1: to like one thousand Swifties to keep potentially a legal
Speaker 1: content off of a platform that's run by a billion ere.
Speaker 1: That's not a dynamic that I'm comfortable with. And I
Speaker 1: have to say, like, it feels really gross to talk
Speaker 1: about those images, but I just want to add, because
Speaker 1: it's something that has been in my mind a lot,
Speaker 1: is that the images are football themed. They depict Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift at a big football game. And I don't know
Speaker 1: for sure, but I have to assume that this is
Speaker 1: related to the fact that she's gotten so much attention
Speaker 1: from going to those NFL games because her boyfriend is
Speaker 1: a football player, and every time she goes to a game,
Speaker 1: it is like breathlessly reported on. And I guess I
Speaker 1: just don't think that it's a coincident that these images
Speaker 1: depict her at a football game, and I think they're
Speaker 1: meant to humiliate her on the basis of the attention
Speaker 1: that she has gotten from the NFL.
Speaker 2: And I think that they're they're meant.
Speaker 1: To like, like, people who make visual disinformation are so
Speaker 1: good at doing so in a way that works to
Speaker 1: get people. They're just very charged. They're very good at
Speaker 1: making images that are very charged. And I can't help
Speaker 1: but notice the ways that these images seemed charged to
Speaker 1: humiliate her in a very specific kind of way about
Speaker 1: a very specific thing about her personal life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that definitely doesn't seem like it's a coincidence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I've seen some takes that are like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad it's happening to Taylor Swift. She is so
Speaker 1: powerful and so rich, and that like she'll will be
Speaker 1: able to do something like certainly her team will be
Speaker 1: able to do something. But I push back on those
Speaker 1: takes because like, these images are up, right, like I
Speaker 1: confirmed that before we started recording, and it so like
Speaker 1: even if Twitter wanted to remove these images, I don't
Speaker 1: think they would be able to just by the nature
Speaker 1: of how the Internet works.
Speaker 2: And I think it just speaks to the.
Speaker 1: Fact that the powers that be have let this problem
Speaker 1: get so out of hand that I don't know what
Speaker 1: a fix looks like. And if it's happening to Taylor Swift,
Speaker 1: one of the wealthiest, most popular, and most powerful women
Speaker 1: in the world, I don't think that it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: she'll be able to figure out something where this won't
Speaker 1: happen to other people.
Speaker 2: It's already happening to her.
Speaker 1: So if it's going If it happens to her and
Speaker 1: those pictures are up for seventeen hours and then still
Speaker 1: up after that, what hope is there for any of us,
Speaker 1: Like what happens when it happens to a high schooler
Speaker 1: or a child or any of us, Like lawmakers have
Speaker 1: ignored the warnings and gotten no traction on legislation on this,
Speaker 1: and I just don't think any of it bodes well
Speaker 1: for anybody.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4: Like I'm glad, and again, I you know, it is
Speaker 4: it's I don't obviously like it shouldn't happen to anybody.
Speaker 3: It just kind of it. It's horrible for her on
Speaker 3: a personal level.
Speaker 4: And then also like it just kind of enforces that
Speaker 4: sort of idea that like women's bodies are like public property,
Speaker 4: and especially if they're like in the spotlight.
Speaker 3: But yeah, like, I don't.
Speaker 4: Think if this happened to me, my like three hundred
Speaker 4: Twitter followers would be able to you know, change like
Speaker 4: flood the hash not that there would be a hashtag,
Speaker 4: but you know, yeah, it is.
Speaker 3: It is sort of concerning.
Speaker 4: That like one of the most powerful women in the
Speaker 4: world cannot this happen to her with like very little
Speaker 4: consequences at the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that you just really nicely articulated.
Speaker 1: One of the things I always say about this kind
Speaker 1: of garbage is that these kinds of exploitative content, it
Speaker 1: reinforces the idea that women, by virtue of showing up online,
Speaker 1: our body and our images are just open for whoever
Speaker 1: wants to use them or exploit them in any way
Speaker 1: they can. And so I've seen people be like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: these pictures aren't real, and she's a public figure, so
Speaker 1: like that it goes along with it absolutely fucking not
Speaker 1: the cost of showing up and being a public figure,
Speaker 1: and you know, being on the internet should not be
Speaker 1: to be sexually humiliated. Like and I do think it's
Speaker 1: something about reinforcing this idea that, yeah, our bodies are
Speaker 1: just up for the taking to be depicted however anybody wants.
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, we're supposed to not
Speaker 1: be upset by it because it's quote not real, absolutely not,
Speaker 1: absolutely not that as a terrible dynamic, that is a
Speaker 1: terrible norm. We should all be pushing back on that
Speaker 1: because certainly, I'm sure you know that high schooler who
Speaker 1: is having the high school student who is having this
Speaker 1: happen to her, isn't saying like, oh, it's not real images.
Speaker 1: These images, whether they are real or not, they can
Speaker 1: do real damage and really impact people's lives. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I just think that we should all be pushed for
Speaker 1: a culture that recognizes that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I definitely it's this is one of those
Speaker 4: things too where it's like it's it's terrible, and it's
Speaker 4: terrible it's happening to again, it's it's it's terrible that
Speaker 4: it happens to anybody.
Speaker 3: I think, like obviously.
Speaker 4: Taylor's story is going to get a lot of attention,
Speaker 4: and it is something that is happening to like a
Speaker 4: lot of people, and it's probably going to continue to happen.
Speaker 4: And interestingly, Slash not surprisingly, you know, it's happening around
Speaker 4: the same time and like by the same people that
Speaker 4: want to crack down on like sex workers and sex
Speaker 4: workers rights. And I think this is another situation looking
Speaker 4: at AI where you know, it really is important to
Speaker 4: listen to sex workers about these issues because a lot
Speaker 4: of times they're going to be like the first ones
Speaker 4: harmed by this kind of stuff, Slash exploit it, and
Speaker 4: we all are going to end up suffering because of
Speaker 4: these sort of exploitative things. So yeah, no, I just
Speaker 4: I think listen to sex workers about these issues. Like
Speaker 4: is the weird sort of like duality of those efforts
Speaker 4: to take away like agency over the bodies of like
Speaker 4: non CIS men and at the same time, like those
Speaker 4: bodies are kind of seen as public property in these
Speaker 4: sort of situations, which is scary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, almost every one of the tech and internet facilitated
Speaker 1: harms that we talk about on this show.
Speaker 2: Sex workers have been like, oh, yeah, we called that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we were warning about that.
Speaker 1: You knew about that, And if only people with power
Speaker 1: I don't know, listened, I wonder where we would be.
Speaker 6: Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2: At our back.
Speaker 1: So from one unsavory story to another, there are kind
Speaker 1: of a lot of unsavory stories on this episode. I apologize,
Speaker 1: but also it's the happier stories. So I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I really deeply hate talking about this person. I think
Speaker 1: we've only ever talked about this person once before on
Speaker 1: the podcast, I think, But here we go. So far
Speaker 1: right hate mongering influencer Chai Rachik, who runs the inflammatory
Speaker 1: account Libs of TikTok, has just been appointed to the
Speaker 1: Oklahoma Education Departments Library Media Advisory Committee, despite the fact
Speaker 1: that this person does not live in Oklahoma, it's not
Speaker 1: an Oklahoma resident, does not have a child in the
Speaker 1: Oklahoma school system, and is a former real estate agent
Speaker 1: with no clear background or history or ties to education.
Speaker 1: And this person is going to be advising the state
Speaker 1: on what kind of media should be in school libraries. Wow, Okay,
Speaker 1: So if you don't know what Libs of TikTok is
Speaker 1: it is an account where they will like post videos
Speaker 1: a lot of times of perceived LGBTQ use or the
Speaker 1: adults who support those youth to their millions of followers
Speaker 1: to like make fun of them, demonize them, you know,
Speaker 1: smear them, lie about them, all of that, and in
Speaker 1: several instances, educators or school libraries or hospitals that are
Speaker 1: featured on that account will then get death threats or
Speaker 1: lots and lots of coordinated harassment. So Libs of TikTok
Speaker 1: has been linked to threats at schools and hospitals across
Speaker 1: the country. A friend of mine, will Caroless, who writes
Speaker 1: about extremism at the USA Today, has chronicled how her
Speaker 1: content has led to real world harm and disruptions. So
Speaker 1: in Davis, California, a library received a bomb threat that
Speaker 1: included hate speech according to police, and the library and
Speaker 1: the school nearby had to be evacuated.
Speaker 2: So this came after a group of.
Speaker 1: Speakers started referring to a group of female trans athletes
Speaker 1: as quote biological males. A librarian asked them to leave rightly,
Speaker 1: so that interaction is caught on a video, and then
Speaker 1: a far right backlash from Libs of TikTok and others
Speaker 1: ensued in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where this woman has just been
Speaker 1: appointed to you know, guide the material that children should
Speaker 1: be receiving. Well, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, their school received bomb
Speaker 1: threats the day after. Libs of TikTok tweeted about the
Speaker 1: school's librarian, who posted a video that was obviously meant
Speaker 1: to be a joke, obviously meant to be tongue in chic,
Speaker 1: Like anybody who saw this would be like, yeah, she's
Speaker 1: kidding around. The librarian and Tulsa posted my radical liberal
Speaker 1: agenda is teaching kids to love books and be kind.
Speaker 1: So obviously that video is meant to be a joke,
Speaker 1: but they took it seriously.
Speaker 2: That's another thing about these people. It's like they have
Speaker 2: the worst sense of humor.
Speaker 4: Okay, it's two things, because one, I'm so sorry, but
Speaker 4: how much of a loser do you have to be
Speaker 4: to like care this much about what's happening in like high.
Speaker 3: Schools, like huge losers on with your life, like.
Speaker 4: And then second of all, yeah, that is like that
Speaker 4: is the most basic like joke you can may I
Speaker 4: don't know.
Speaker 3: That is so weird to be like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: they're so scary.
Speaker 2: Wow, I make this point a lot.
Speaker 1: Do you follow the comedian and writer or I guess
Speaker 1: the actress to multi halfenite, multi hyphen it Trace Lassette.
Speaker 1: So Trace was talking about Dave Chappelle's most recent net
Speaker 1: Netflix special and TRACE's trans and she was talking about how,
Speaker 1: like what is going on that? Like, so, okay, we
Speaker 1: get it. Dave Chappelle doesn't like trans people. You need
Speaker 1: to release multiple comedy specials about this, these people that
Speaker 1: you apparently hate. Who spends this much time focused on
Speaker 1: and talking about and thinking about and writing about stuff
Speaker 1: like this, Like like, it is not normal. It's not
Speaker 1: a normal way to exist. She's such a v if
Speaker 1: y'all don't follow her on TikTok and on Twitter. She
Speaker 1: is so cool, She's very funny.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Yeah, and no, like absolutely it is giving,
Speaker 3: like why why why are you so obsessed with me?
Speaker 3: You know? It is really weird.
Speaker 4: I I gotta say, I don't think I've I've given
Speaker 4: a single thought to what a high school curriculum is
Speaker 4: like in my time since graduating high school. And yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't typically, you know, hyper focus on people's gender
Speaker 4: identity that have nothing to do with me or my life.
Speaker 3: But yeah, glad, that's.
Speaker 7: Yeah, people you'll never meet, Like it's a wild yeah,
Speaker 7: I's And honestly, like when we were doing episodes earlier
Speaker 7: in the summer about like book bands and stuff, one
Speaker 7: of the things that was really surprising to me is
Speaker 7: that oftentimes challenges for entire public school districts were.
Speaker 1: Coming from one parent who did not live in that
Speaker 1: school district and did not have kids in that school districts.
Speaker 2: Was like, so you're just like obsessed.
Speaker 1: Over what students in a school that you don't have
Speaker 1: any connection to our reading.
Speaker 2: What in the fucking world? Like that is just that
Speaker 2: is not who is who does that?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 1: I just like, obviously maybe you want to be a
Speaker 1: Fox Newstar whatever whatever, I get it, But like, at
Speaker 1: the or that is so I just I cannot understand
Speaker 1: that mindset at all. I'm with you here in DC
Speaker 1: where I live. Chaia Rachik from Lives of TikTok posted
Speaker 1: a video where she films herself calling Children's Hospital, which
Speaker 1: is like our major PDXTRA hospital here in DC, pretending
Speaker 1: that she was looking for a gender affirming hysterectomy for
Speaker 1: a non existent sixteen year old child. She posted this
Speaker 1: recording of this conversation to Lives of TikTok last summer,
Speaker 1: in which she is questioning two unidentified hospital employees about
Speaker 1: whether or not they offer gender affirming hyst directomies to
Speaker 1: patients who are sixteen.
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit of a weird situation.
Speaker 1: Basically, the hospital was inundated with harassing calls and threats,
Speaker 1: accompanied by a social media post suggesting that the hospital
Speaker 1: should be bombed and that its doctor should be jailed,
Speaker 1: placed in a woodshipper or worse, and in the end,
Speaker 1: Children's Hospital confirmed that whoever she was speaking to in
Speaker 1: that video one were not medical care providers for the
Speaker 1: hospital and that the hospital does not even hysterectomies on minors.
Speaker 1: The hospital said, none of the people who were secretly
Speaker 1: recorded by this activist group deliver character our patients. The
Speaker 1: information in the recording is not accurate. We do not
Speaker 1: perform gender affirming hysterectomies for anyone under the age of eighteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Also, it is insanely hard to get a hysterectomy as
Speaker 4: an adult, like somebody over the age of eighteen, like
Speaker 4: as somebody.
Speaker 3: Who like I'll be totally honest.
Speaker 4: My late teen years, almost every single doctor's appointment asked
Speaker 4: if I can get a hysterectomy just because I didn't
Speaker 4: want to keep getting my period and don't want.
Speaker 3: To have kids. Like it's a no every time. It
Speaker 3: is a staunch no. That is insane.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and again, like as as an adult, there's just
Speaker 4: so many hoops you have to go through, even if
Speaker 4: it's like a legitimate medical issue.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so crazy.
Speaker 1: I've heard from friends. But one of my friends was
Speaker 1: able to get a hysterectomy, but she had two doctors
Speaker 1: be like I'm not going to perform it just in
Speaker 1: case you want to have kids someday, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to have kids.
Speaker 2: I am in a relation. I am a woman in
Speaker 2: a relationship with a woman.
Speaker 1: So like, accidental pregnancy is not a thing that's like
Speaker 1: on my I have no plans for children in the future.
Speaker 1: But like making a medical decision based on a hypothetical
Speaker 1: maybe someday man who might maybe someday hypothetically want to
Speaker 1: be in the mix to have a baby, it is
Speaker 1: all I have to say, Like, you are so right.
Speaker 1: These people are trafficking in fictions where they are just
Speaker 1: handing out hysterectomies to whoever wants one, regardless of anything
Speaker 1: that is not happening. And it's like it's like not
Speaker 1: based in reality these things that they And it doesn't
Speaker 1: surprise me that the hospital has to be like, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is the thing that they said happened that to lie
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. And a similar thing happened at a children's
Speaker 1: hospital in Boston as well, where their services for children,
Speaker 1: for babies, their healthcare were disrupted because of all of
Speaker 1: these calls and threats and harassment because of this libs
Speaker 1: of TikTok stunts. It's so infuriating to me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, also like what I mean, I guess it's it's
Speaker 4: the same trying to apply logic to people that are
Speaker 4: not acting logically. But it's like, I guess it's the
Speaker 4: same stuff as like people that bomb abortion clinics, But
Speaker 4: what is the point of bombing a hospital? Like literally
Speaker 4: they just would rather people be dead than me trans
Speaker 4: like that is that's the endgame of this, which is yeah, scary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fucked up. So Superintendent of Public Instruction
Speaker 1: Ryan Walters said CHAIA is on the front lines of
Speaker 1: showing the world exactly what the radical left is all about,
Speaker 1: lowering standards, pourn in schools and pushing woke indoctrination on
Speaker 1: our kids. Because of her work, families across the country
Speaker 1: know what is going on in schools across the country.
Speaker 2: This is so like, this is like like what the fuck?
Speaker 2: Levels are bad.
Speaker 1: But I will say, though, as bad as this is,
Speaker 1: some folks in Oklahoma are pushing back.
Speaker 2: State Rep.
Speaker 1: Mark McBride, chairman of the House Appropriation Subcommittee on Education, said,
Speaker 1: I don't see any need to have a twenty eight
Speaker 1: year old realtor from New York that has no children
Speaker 1: appointed to this position when there are extremely qualified parents, teachers,
Speaker 1: and librarians in Oklahoma, which I think like a little
Speaker 1: bit of a drag mare. Like when somebody from Oklahoma
Speaker 1: highlights that somebody is from New York, I think it's
Speaker 1: like clear that that's not a compliment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, from the Midwest, who's from Chicago, which is veryd Oklahoma,
Speaker 4: But like when somebody really emphasizes the New York that
Speaker 4: is not a compliment. Also, I did not realize that
Speaker 4: she was twenty eight. That's wild, girl, You should be
Speaker 4: at the club.
Speaker 2: What are you doing so Representative.
Speaker 1: Mickey Dollans, an Oklahoma City Democrat and former public school teacher,
Speaker 1: said that this appointment might actually violate the department's rules
Speaker 1: for advisory committees, which require members to be representative of
Speaker 1: the people served. She's not from Oklahoma, like not a
Speaker 1: parent in that district, so like difficult to say how
Speaker 1: she would be representative of the people served.
Speaker 2: And something I always.
Speaker 1: I feel like I never really make it explicitly clear
Speaker 1: when I'm talking about limbs of TikTok, which isn't often
Speaker 1: because I cannot stand this person. But you might be thinking, like, well,
Speaker 1: she doesn't come out and explicitly tell people to call
Speaker 1: in bomb threats or harrass educators or like prevent kids
Speaker 1: from getting care at hospitals. But that is part of
Speaker 1: the strategy. It's called stochastic terror, and it's when you
Speaker 1: use media or communications to sort of wink wink, nudge
Speaker 1: nudge make somebody or something or an institution a target
Speaker 1: of this kind of harassment. And so she's never going
Speaker 1: to come out and say harass these people. She might
Speaker 1: actually come out and say like, oh, well, I would
Speaker 1: never advocate for harassment of people. But then she'll continue
Speaker 1: to do the same thing that gets people and institutions
Speaker 1: harassed time and time and time again. So I would
Speaker 1: argue that she knows exactly what she's doing. And think
Speaker 1: about it, like if every time you mentioned something that
Speaker 1: you didn't like happening a school on your massive platform,
Speaker 1: if a few hours later that school had to be
Speaker 1: evacuated because of a bomb threat or harassment, what did
Speaker 1: you stop doing that after a while, Like if you
Speaker 1: really didn't want that to happen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always funny, And.
Speaker 4: By funny, I mean just depressing that this is the case,
Speaker 4: and probably intentionally the case, but it was always funny
Speaker 4: that they seem to be doing exactly what they always are,
Speaker 4: accusing the quote unquote radical left of doing where it's like,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, like the quote left you were talking about.
Speaker 3: The response to everything is just we'll go out and
Speaker 3: vote and like whatever or like give us what.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like, this is it's so crazy.
Speaker 4: You only the ones bombing people, You all the ones
Speaker 4: called in bomb threats, like take a look at the mirror.
Speaker 1: Please absolutely, And to put this in a larger context,
Speaker 1: last year, a court ruled that Oklahoma can enforce its
Speaker 1: law banning and criminalizing gender affirming care for transminors, while
Speaker 1: a suit against it is being heard, that law into
Speaker 1: effect would make providing gender affirming care in Oklahoma a
Speaker 1: felony right. And so when you when we're talking about
Speaker 1: this happening in Oklahoma, it's really important to understand that
Speaker 1: larger context of what folks there are up against. The
Speaker 1: climate that they're up against. It is not a safe
Speaker 1: climate for these youths. And I just think that it
Speaker 1: breaks my heart that you've got dipshits like this who
Speaker 1: are promoting people like Chaia to positions of power within
Speaker 1: a school district that she does not even have any
Speaker 1: connection to. Just to drive home how much they are
Speaker 1: not welcome there, and yeah, it's just really horrifying. I
Speaker 1: think that Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters should really
Speaker 1: be a shame because also this is not serving the
Speaker 1: constituents and the parents and the youth of that community,
Speaker 1: like inviting a hate monger in. And they're always like,
Speaker 1: just kind of like what you said. They're always like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: it's people on the left who are making everything woke
Speaker 1: and making everything political, and blah blah blah. You are doing that, sir,
Speaker 1: by you bringing this person with no connection to the
Speaker 1: community in and giving them a bigger platform, giving them
Speaker 1: a position of power in your community, you are the
Speaker 1: one who is politicizing everything. You are the one who
Speaker 1: is making everything inflammatory. I just I really hate it.
Speaker 1: I really hate it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I also like most of these people, I'm like, name
Speaker 4: a single trans kid that you know, Like, yeah, I
Speaker 4: guarantee you are just this is something you think is
Speaker 4: going to be a big issue, but.
Speaker 3: Without even really looking at the reality, which is not
Speaker 3: to say that there aren't trans kids in these communities.
Speaker 3: There absolutely are.
Speaker 4: Like it's always coming from people that just kind of
Speaker 4: have this imagined threat in their brain without ever having
Speaker 4: interacted with the trans community or again, like a single
Speaker 4: trans kid, which you know. Yeah, usually people that actually
Speaker 4: have experience talking to trans kids or talking to the
Speaker 4: trans community don't end up feeling this way, which is
Speaker 4: part of why this happens. But yeah, why you know,
Speaker 4: the lack of exposure to trans people is why this happens.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it is.
Speaker 4: It is always weird that is coming from kind of
Speaker 4: this imagined threat than even any sense of reality.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's infuriating. I do have a little bit of good.
Speaker 1: News, and that was an upsetting story for all of us,
Speaker 1: but so little good news. So called conversion therapy is
Speaker 1: an abusive practice that is sensibly meant to change someone's
Speaker 1: sexual orientation or gender identity that has been widely debunked,
Speaker 1: and pretty much every medical association, like the American Psychological Association,
Speaker 1: the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association consider it
Speaker 1: to be a dangerous pseudoscience. Rightly, twenty two states and
Speaker 1: DC currently have laws banning this practice from being used
Speaker 1: on minors. It's horrible, But here's the good news to
Speaker 1: Twitter alternatives. Spoutable run by Christopher Bouse, who we actually
Speaker 1: have talked to on the podcast before, and Post have
Speaker 1: both banned content promoting conversion therapy. So most mainstream social
Speaker 1: media platforms like TikTok, Pinterest, nextdoor, and Facebook and Instagram
Speaker 1: all all explicitly ban content promoting conversion therapy.
Speaker 2: And now these smaller.
Speaker 1: Sort of niche Twitter alternatives Post and spoutable are also
Speaker 1: joining that. Glad had this to say. The leadership of
Speaker 1: both Post and spoutable and adopting new policies prohibiting so
Speaker 1: called conversion therapy content puts these companies ahead of many others.
Speaker 1: This is from GLAD CEO Sarah Kate Ellis. Glad are
Speaker 1: just all social media platforms to adopt and enforce this
Speaker 1: policy to protect their LGBTQ users. So this is good,
Speaker 1: I think for a couple of reasons. One of them
Speaker 1: is that we've talked on the podcast before about how changes,
Speaker 1: both good changes and bad changes for bigger platforms can
Speaker 1: be this domino effect where other platforms feel the need
Speaker 1: to follow suit, and I think this is a good
Speaker 1: example of the way that for smaller platforms it can
Speaker 1: create a domino effect of the same thing, where these
Speaker 1: smaller niche platforms are making this change and that changes
Speaker 1: and being reflected for other small platforms.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I think it's cool to see how.
Speaker 1: That domino effect can be working to create positive change
Speaker 1: for smaller alternative platforms as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely great to hear some good news.
Speaker 4: And yeah, it was like the bare minimum of you know,
Speaker 4: protecting your queer and trans users, customers, whatever, but it is.
Speaker 4: It is such an important stepstake and it's good to
Speaker 4: see that that's becoming more common.
Speaker 6: More.
Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1: So we already know that technology like facial recognition is
Speaker 1: racist and sexist and unreliable and should not be used
Speaker 1: for a whole host of reasons. And here is yet
Speaker 1: another story that is a horrifying example of what happens
Speaker 1: when police rely on it anyway to make arrests. So
Speaker 1: Harvey Murphy Junior is a sixty one year old man
Speaker 1: who was arrested in Texas for an armed robbery of
Speaker 1: a Sunglasses Hut retail store in twenty twenty two, a
Speaker 1: crime that he did not and could not have committed.
Speaker 1: After facial recognition technology Fossley matched him as a suspect. So,
Speaker 1: according to The Washington Post, a representative of a nearby
Speaker 1: Macy's told Houston police during the investigation that the company's system,
Speaker 1: which scanned surveillance camera footage for faces in an internal
Speaker 1: shoplifter database, found evidence that Murphy had robbed both stores,
Speaker 1: both the Sunglasses Hut and the Macy's. Now, police do
Speaker 1: say that after the facial recognition technology flagged Murphy, they
Speaker 1: then showed his image to the cashier at Sunglasses Hut,
Speaker 1: who positively idd Murphy as the assailant, but it could
Speaker 1: not have been him because he was actually already in
Speaker 1: prison in Sacramento, California, some two thousand miles away at
Speaker 1: the time the crime was committed. And he actually only
Speaker 1: even found out that there was a warrant for his
Speaker 1: arrest for this crime in Texas when he was going
Speaker 1: to renew his driver's license in Sacramento, when the DMV
Speaker 1: flat that he had an outstanding warrant and arrested him
Speaker 1: for this crime that he could not have done. So
Speaker 1: here's where the story gets really awful. While he was
Speaker 1: in prison awaiting trial for this crime that he could
Speaker 1: not have committed, he was beaten and sexually assaulted by
Speaker 1: three men. So hours after that assault, he was cleared
Speaker 1: of all charges and released, and now he assuming Macy's
Speaker 1: Sunglasses Huts parent company and three people that his attorneys
Speaker 1: say were involved in the case. He's seeking ten million
Speaker 1: dollars in damages and says the assault left him with
Speaker 1: lifelong injuries.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is such a horrifying story. It's look also,
Speaker 4: I mean, I we know that prisons are a place
Speaker 4: where this happens a lot of times, and it is
Speaker 4: so for some reason, the solution is never to fix
Speaker 4: those problems and like maybe stop so many people going
Speaker 4: to prison and do prison reform, and the solution is
Speaker 4: always just to send more people to prison.
Speaker 3: And what else is new that is? Yeah, that is
Speaker 3: so horrifying. I don is. I hope he sues them
Speaker 3: for whatever they're worth.
Speaker 4: And yeah, that's that's horrible.
Speaker 1: It is And I also hate this statement from macy
Speaker 1: So Macy's, when Washington Posts talked to them, they declined
Speaker 1: to comment on the pending litigation, but they did say
Speaker 1: in a previous statement that Macy's quote uses facial recognition
Speaker 1: and conjunction with other securities methods in a small subset
Speaker 1: of Macy's stores with high incidences of organized retail theft
Speaker 1: and repeat offenders, and so that statement is not about
Speaker 1: this specific case. They were like, oh, we're not going
Speaker 1: to talk about that. However, it almost sounds like they're
Speaker 1: saying like, well, if a few people have to be
Speaker 1: arrested wrongly because of our faulty use of this surveillance
Speaker 1: techt it's okay if it protects our merchandise. Like, I
Speaker 1: just feel like the focus on retail theft and like
Speaker 1: quote organized theft, it makes it seem like the most
Speaker 1: important thing here is the Macy's merchandise, not the fact
Speaker 1: that they are routinely falsely arresting people.
Speaker 2: Who then are could be assaulted in prison.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, this is America where yeah, property damage is first,
Speaker 4: is the worst crime you could commit, or property theft
Speaker 4: is the worst ufront, especially if it's sort of a
Speaker 4: corporation that is big bad.
Speaker 1: The most important thing we should be protecting are the sunglasses, Jolie.
Speaker 2: I cannot stress that.
Speaker 4: Enough, those sunglasses huts. That is a staple of American culture.
Speaker 4: And if we're not going to if.
Speaker 3: The facial recognition isn't going to protect it, who will.
Speaker 1: Apparently, so, this isn't the first time that something like
Speaker 1: this has happened. We talked about Portia Woodruff, the heavily
Speaker 1: pregnant black woman who was arrested for a crime she
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with because of this technology. Rite
Speaker 1: Aid was actually banned from using facial recognition technology for
Speaker 1: five years after the ftc found at the store. Misused
Speaker 1: facial recognition to fossly accuse people of theft and harass them,
Speaker 1: causing embarrassment, harassment, and other harm, including physically searching an
Speaker 1: eleven year old girl in a way that left her
Speaker 1: so distraught that her mom had to miss work.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, like awful.
Speaker 1: I honestly can't believe that. It's like, okay, well you
Speaker 1: can't use this technology for five years. I feel like,
Speaker 1: once your technology has been misused to the point where
Speaker 1: you are traumatizing children for no real reason, you should
Speaker 1: lose those privileges forever.
Speaker 3: In my book, yeah, I there.
Speaker 4: Well, so there's something already so dystopian about living in
Speaker 4: this like hyper police state that we're all in, where
Speaker 4: it's just like we're constantly, constantly being monitored, and there
Speaker 4: is another level of dystopia of that that it's like
Speaker 4: it's not.
Speaker 3: Even like, oh, you can't be doing any crime.
Speaker 4: You gotta be at your best behavior old times because
Speaker 4: you're always being watched. Now it's just like you never know,
Speaker 4: and like especially if you are a person of color,
Speaker 4: if you're a black person. Yeah, it's just there's just
Speaker 4: like another level of dystopia.
Speaker 1: And doing it in service of like protecting merchandise and
Speaker 1: keeping the wheels of capitalism Greece, Like it's.
Speaker 4: Just protecting Macy's and the song glass is my like,
Speaker 4: are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: It's just so it's just so like it's just so sad.
Speaker 1: We deserve such, we deserve better. It's just so sad.
Speaker 1: And to your point about like, we know that this
Speaker 1: kind of technology disproportionately impacts women, people of color, black people,
Speaker 1: black women especially. However, I should tell you Murphy is white.
Speaker 1: There have been six other people that we know of
Speaker 1: who have been falsely arrested because of this technology. All
Speaker 1: of them have been black. Murphy is the first white
Speaker 1: man that we know of this happening to being falsely
Speaker 1: arrested because of facial recognition technology.
Speaker 2: And so I don't know.
Speaker 1: Part of me wonders if this is going to be
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like when the harms
Speaker 1: were impacting women and black people and people of color,
Speaker 1: people were like, eh, whatever, but maybe the harm will
Speaker 1: then extend to everybody and then it's like, oh wait,
Speaker 1: I could be falsely arrested for this, like hold on.
Speaker 2: So we will have to.
Speaker 1: See, but it definitely is again people like we talked
Speaker 1: to doctor Joy Bolamwini, I'm an AI researcher on the
Speaker 1: podcast a while back. People have been very clear about
Speaker 1: the psychic, cosmic, deep threat that this technology poses to
Speaker 1: all of us and police departments and retail establishments just
Speaker 1: keep using it. It's like those warnings are just going unheard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, Like they're just there's no logical reason for
Speaker 4: this to be continued to be used at such a
Speaker 4: wide scale, Like it only causes like it seems like
Speaker 4: it's just causing more harm than actually like and I
Speaker 4: don't know what the numbers are for, like the times
Speaker 4: to accurate or whatever, but I guarantee it's not enough
Speaker 4: to kind of justify the opposite. And again, there is
Speaker 4: something really weird about the fact that it's like we've
Speaker 4: all just kind of given up the ability to have
Speaker 4: any sense of privacy in public, which I guess I
Speaker 4: don't know privacy and public whatever, but like, have any
Speaker 4: sense of privacy, you have any sense of just like
Speaker 4: being able to exist in the world without having like
Speaker 4: eyes on you, metaphorical eyes on you, you know.
Speaker 1: And speaking of folks trying to warn folks in power
Speaker 1: of the harm that this kind of technology presents, parents
Speaker 1: are actually talking about the threats posed by AI to
Speaker 1: young people. A coalition of parents working alongside the group
Speaker 1: Parents together wrote a letter to TikTok expressing concerns about
Speaker 1: AI generated influencers, asking the platform to clearly label when
Speaker 1: an influencer is not real but AI generated, warning that
Speaker 1: AI generated influencers can make things like poor body image,
Speaker 1: body dysmorphia, and self esteem issues worse.
Speaker 2: So the letter was sent to TikTok.
Speaker 1: CEO and it reads, TikTok is flooding kids feeds with
Speaker 1: fake computer generated people pretending to be real influencers. AI
Speaker 1: generated influencers created by companies to make a profit, post
Speaker 1: photos and videos of people who appear to be real
Speaker 1: but don't actually exist. These AI generated people do things
Speaker 1: like apply makeup on flawless skin and show off perfect bodies,
Speaker 1: creating an extreme and utterly unattainable beauty standard. Most of
Speaker 1: the millions of kids who encounter these accounts won't know
Speaker 1: the people they aspire to look like are not real
Speaker 1: people at all. Right now, TikTok relies on companies that
Speaker 1: create these accounts to label them as AI but with
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars per post on the line, they often
Speaker 1: do not. That's why TikTok must proactively and clearly identify
Speaker 1: these accounts so young users know which accounts are real
Speaker 1: people and which are computer generated, so the parents their
Speaker 1: concerns are not unfounded. Nearly half forty six percent of
Speaker 1: adolescents aged thirteen to seventeen said that social media platforms
Speaker 1: make them feel worse, and TikTok has already been taken
Speaker 1: to task for kind of I want maybe allowing is
Speaker 1: too strong, but containing content that glorifies disordered eating, right,
Speaker 1: they have rules against that content, but those rules are
Speaker 1: pretty easily circumvented, and then they sort of don't then,
Speaker 1: so they might be like, oh, like pro eating disorder
Speaker 1: content is disallowed, but then when people easily get around it,
Speaker 1: they don't really have a fix for that. And so
Speaker 1: right now, TikTok is supposed to clearly label AI generated content,
Speaker 1: but Parents Together campaign director Shelby NOTx says that it's
Speaker 1: really kind of not doing that because how that works
Speaker 1: now is that the AI virtual influencer will just put
Speaker 1: in their bio like hashtag AI influencer, and you would
Speaker 1: only know that that influencer was AI generated if you
Speaker 1: look at their bio, not on the content itself. Knox
Speaker 1: told NBC, I'm not sure that your average kid knows
Speaker 1: that a virtual influencer is industry speak for this person
Speaker 1: is not real. So because these companies are making money
Speaker 1: on TikTok's platform, and it is contributing to a dangerous culture.
Speaker 1: Our view is that TikTok has a responsibility to come
Speaker 1: in and figure out how to consistently and visibly label.
Speaker 2: These accounts and these videos.
Speaker 1: I had never really thought about the threat posed by
Speaker 1: these AI influencers. I will say this though. Some of
Speaker 1: them really do look real, but they have this like
Speaker 1: impossibly conventionally attractive look, like they're skinny to the point
Speaker 1: where it's like bodies like this is not how a
Speaker 1: body looks, or like they're They're beautiful to a point
Speaker 1: that is like unachievable and unrealistic. And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: because they're not real. And so I'm an adult when
Speaker 1: I see content like that, I generally can tell when
Speaker 1: it's not a real person. But if you're a little
Speaker 1: kid and you're looking for an influencer to look up to,
Speaker 1: you might not know.
Speaker 4: So I just look this up now because I have
Speaker 4: not had this come up on my free paget. I
Speaker 4: have had the weird like AI kind of MPC things
Speaker 4: come up on my page.
Speaker 3: All the time, which are always weird. But yeah, that
Speaker 3: is that is free.
Speaker 4: That is not really expected those are actually like uncanny,
Speaker 4: like weird, Like I could totally guesh see like a
Speaker 4: kid looking at that and it's a real.
Speaker 3: Person that is so creepy.
Speaker 4: And again, like going to the other side of this
Speaker 4: issue is like influencing is real work that's often you know,
Speaker 4: not taken seriously because it is primarily women that do it.
Speaker 4: It is like a lot of the kind of like
Speaker 4: are their valid criticisms of influencers. Yes, However, like yeah,
Speaker 4: a lot of a lot of the criticism does also
Speaker 4: just come from misogyny. And it's like, you know, again,
Speaker 4: the jobs that are always going to be affected first
Speaker 4: or kind of the people that are already are always
Speaker 4: going to be like affected warriors are sex workers, women,
Speaker 4: women of color. And it's like this is another example
Speaker 4: of like an industry that is primarily female and is
Speaker 4: you know not taken seriously because it is primarily female
Speaker 4: being taken over by all these tech bros that are
Speaker 4: just gonna make the situation way worse and take take
Speaker 4: all the bad things about influencing and make that the
Speaker 4: main thing. Yeah, that is so scary. I can we
Speaker 4: go to like can we can we backtrack on the
Speaker 4: whole like trying to make fake people thing and like
Speaker 4: just make like if you want a fake thing to
Speaker 4: be your influencer, Like, can it be like a cartoon?
Speaker 4: Just be like a like a what's the like space
Speaker 4: jam or something where we just have like a Looney
Speaker 4: Tunes character in the real world for no reasons.
Speaker 3: Like it's like I don't know, Like I feel like.
Speaker 4: There there's got to be a better option if you
Speaker 4: really don't want to pay human being.
Speaker 1: Give Lola Buddy a spot right, Like it doesn't Yeah,
Speaker 1: I gin guess part of me is like when people work,
Speaker 1: when when conversations about AI became so ubiquitous, who does
Speaker 1: something like why is it? Why aren't we starting from
Speaker 1: a place of like, well, AI can write our movies.
Speaker 2: Be our artists, be are be our creatives, do our influencing?
Speaker 1: Like who decided that the kind of creative jobs and
Speaker 1: creative labor that people aspire to you that is, those
Speaker 1: are the jobs that we were to have. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm sure people who make money, that's who decided it.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh we can, we can humans who have
Speaker 1: needs cut them out of the equation and just like
Speaker 1: pay some tech bro company to make an AI influencer.
Speaker 2: Cool, here's your money.
Speaker 4: Right, And it's also like, you know, the tech bros
Speaker 4: that have been told their entire life that arts and
Speaker 4: humanities aren't real important things, that it's only technology and
Speaker 4: now only seeing this kind of stuff as the products
Speaker 4: rather than the creation.
Speaker 3: And the products aren't even good like it is, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it is. It is.
Speaker 4: We live in a weird, dystopian capitalist hellscape and it
Speaker 4: just gets weirder every day.
Speaker 1: Well, this last story kind of fits into that what
Speaker 1: you're saying, So, oh no, let's talk about this because
Speaker 1: it's it's like a it is pretty depressing. So Indigenous
Speaker 1: artists in Australia say that AI is basically ripping off
Speaker 1: their work without permission or credit and using it to
Speaker 1: create knockoff fake Indigenous art, toll on online retailers like Etsy,
Speaker 1: and it's turning into yet another threat to their livelihoods
Speaker 1: and cultures. So these artists, who are already struggling to
Speaker 1: compete with the tens of millions of dollars worth of
Speaker 1: fake art produced every year by non indigenous artists, now
Speaker 1: have to compete with AI. So major shout out to
Speaker 1: Cam Wilson at The Australian News site Criche for coverage
Speaker 1: on this, We'll link to Cam's Peace in the show
Speaker 1: notes because it's very good.
Speaker 4: I think it's funny that there's an Australian news site
Speaker 4: called I Know. This is a very serious story and important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't let the name Criche fool you. This is
Speaker 1: a very serious story. So Wilson says that AI generated
Speaker 1: Indigenous art is appearing on online marketplaces where art and
Speaker 1: derivative products are being sold, and that those AI generated
Speaker 1: fakes are often directly competing with the work from real
Speaker 1: Indigenous artists, even though platforms often have policies that are
Speaker 1: supposed to protect Indigenous culture from exactly this kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So Adobe and Shutterstock run popular stock images websites where
Speaker 1: people can buy AI generated images for a variety of
Speaker 1: commercial purposes, and on both of those platforms there are
Speaker 1: dozens of fake Indigenous art style images. The images do
Speaker 1: have a label that they have been created using AI,
Speaker 1: but they're often like vaguely listed as being Aboriginal or
Speaker 1: Indigenous art. On Adobe, people can upload AI images for
Speaker 1: sale and then earn a cut of the money every
Speaker 1: time those images are purchased. Now the company is meant
Speaker 1: to only allow users to submit images that they own
Speaker 1: the intellectual property of. But it's not really clear like
Speaker 1: how this is being policed. Platforms like Etsy and eBay
Speaker 1: are filled with cheap digital AI generated prints intended to
Speaker 1: be printed and framed, and some of these online platforms
Speaker 1: do have policies in place to prevent this kind of
Speaker 1: thing from happening, but it's like not clear how or
Speaker 1: why it's not really being enforced very well, so when
Speaker 1: we'll see it. Chris spoke to US spokesperson at Adobe.
Speaker 1: They didn't answer questions about whether AI produced indigenous art
Speaker 1: violates their policies, but instead gave kind of a.
Speaker 2: General blah blah blah, we care statement.
Speaker 1: They said, we are continually auditing, evaluating, and improving the
Speaker 1: Adobe stock collections to serve our customers needs. That's like,
Speaker 1: you may as well have said nothing at that point,
Speaker 1: Like that's a statement that says nothing. EBAs policies say
Speaker 1: that sellers must not list, sell or promote materials, products,
Speaker 1: or services that use indigenous culture and intellectual property in
Speaker 1: unauthorized ways, according to their spokesperson, but when pressed on
Speaker 1: whether or not AI generated art would violate this policy,
Speaker 1: they said, how an artwork is created is irrelevant, and
Speaker 1: that a listing using indigenous art in an unauthorized way
Speaker 1: may breach that policy.
Speaker 2: Etc.
Speaker 1: Has a policy that prohibits users from selling items falsely
Speaker 1: listed as being produced by Indigenous people, but only in
Speaker 1: North America and does allow quote indigenous style products by
Speaker 1: non indigenous people. So yeah, it just sounds like people
Speaker 1: are stealing from indigenous artists. AI is being trained on
Speaker 1: artwork and cultural work that has been stolen from Indigenous artists,
Speaker 1: and then that art that fake artwork is being used
Speaker 1: to undercut actual Indigenous artists who already have to compete
Speaker 1: with non AI generated fake indigenous artwork a complete mess.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really just.
Speaker 4: Technology, you know, the latest technology aiding further colonization and
Speaker 4: colonial kind of ideas, and I that is really messed up.
Speaker 3: Also, Like again I.
Speaker 4: Was surprised to hear that that Etsy prohibits users from
Speaker 4: selling like items that you know are listen is being
Speaker 4: produced by it as people to art, because again, yeah,
Speaker 4: I feel like there's a lot of ways people get
Speaker 4: around that, Like there's a lot of weird especially like
Speaker 4: in within like New Age kind of stuff, like a
Speaker 4: lot of very coded words that you know, people used
Speaker 4: to kind of ignore the fact that they are just
Speaker 4: culturally or like appropriating cultures that aren't their own or
Speaker 4: that aren't you know, being made by the people that
Speaker 4: it's claiming to come from and all that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, that is that is depressing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and it's just like another way, just like
Speaker 1: you said, another way that AI is being used to
Speaker 1: further oppress people who are already oppressed and already face
Speaker 1: so much, right, Like it's just such a grim use
Speaker 1: of technology to continue to cut people out of their
Speaker 1: own culture so that other people can profit off of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, and kind of like what I was saying
Speaker 4: with that the other story too, where it's like I
Speaker 4: feel like a lot of this is coming from these
Speaker 4: companies that don't understand that like art, like the the
Speaker 4: value of art is like part of it is the
Speaker 4: actual process this is making the art and the culture
Speaker 4: that is coming from and the like art is culture,
Speaker 4: art is a part of who we are. It's it's
Speaker 4: so like it's such a closed minded kind of it's
Speaker 4: such an almost honestly, it is a sad kind like
Speaker 4: I feel sad for these people if your only view
Speaker 4: of art is like, oh, well, like but computer can
Speaker 4: do it faster and cheaper, and like that's what people
Speaker 4: want definitely, Like that's just that's just sad at a
Speaker 4: certain point, like I truly like you must not have
Speaker 4: any Like do you feel.
Speaker 3: Joy at all?
Speaker 4: Damn?
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 1: And like I mean, this was the thing that struck
Speaker 1: me over the conversations around like screenwriters and actors and
Speaker 1: AI over the Hollywood strikes. It's like, if you value
Speaker 1: something so little, why do you want to be in
Speaker 1: charge of it? Why do you want to be a
Speaker 1: part of it? If you cannot see what makes this
Speaker 1: stuff great and special and what brings people and makes
Speaker 1: them feel connected to it, why do you even want
Speaker 1: to Why do you even want it? Why do you
Speaker 1: even want to be part of it? It's like you
Speaker 1: can't see that, then what are you doing? You clearly
Speaker 1: don't get it. It's like another way that like rich people.
Speaker 1: We talked about this in a previous episode. I can't
Speaker 1: remember which one. My brain is mush from being sick.
Speaker 1: But rich people they bought they use their capital to
Speaker 1: acquire things and then they hate or don't understand those things.
Speaker 1: They buy things and then they hate those things. And
Speaker 1: then ruin them because of that. It's just like such
Speaker 1: a it was the pitch messed up dynamic.
Speaker 3: Yeah it yeah, a Pitchfork story right last week? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: because it absolutely was. Yeah, I like it is.
Speaker 4: So it's so weird that like the people that are
Speaker 4: ruining the world and like little livelihoods of all of
Speaker 4: these people are like the people that also it's like.
Speaker 3: What are you doing? Like seriously, like where do you how?
Speaker 3: How is this how why you've chosen to live your life?
Speaker 3: Like do you not? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Do you not derive joy from anything? If this is
Speaker 4: how you're viewing the world?
Speaker 3: It is. It is really weird. It is. But you know,
Speaker 3: line go up? Brain, which line go up?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And this is a real issue.
Speaker 1: I mean, Indigenous artists have already have a hard time
Speaker 1: competing with people who create fake art and then try
Speaker 1: to pond that art office Indigenous, even without AI being
Speaker 1: part of the conversation. A twenty twenty two Productivity Commission
Speaker 1: report found that seventy five percent of Indigenous style goods
Speaker 1: were created by non Indigenous people. Online art businesses were
Speaker 1: particularly bad. One stock image site analyzed the Commission had
Speaker 1: eighty percent of its Indigenous style images authored by non
Speaker 1: indigenous people. Similarly, sixty percent of listings on a print
Speaker 1: on demand marketplace were also produced by non indigenous creatives.
Speaker 1: Kriikie spoke to this Indigenous artist Amy Allerton, who said
Speaker 1: that this is really offensive because oftentimes the art will
Speaker 1: just be like a random mishmash of designs, and it's
Speaker 1: like will mix or mess up very like distinctive and
Speaker 1: special styles from different indigenous nations and artists and just
Speaker 1: sort of like mush them together. Allerton said, it's a
Speaker 1: very colonial mindset that they are entitled to the entirety
Speaker 1: of us. Indigenous people don't have the power for self
Speaker 1: determination that we want. This adds to the weight of
Speaker 1: all of that. It's like making me redundant. I think
Speaker 1: about myself. If I were made redundant, that would be devastating.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I just.
Speaker 1: Really think that, like, does everything have to be a
Speaker 1: soulless cash grab? Does everything have to be about that?
Speaker 2: Even art? It just that's not the world I want
Speaker 2: to live.
Speaker 3: In, absolutely.
Speaker 1: But the world I do want to live in is
Speaker 1: one where I get to turn round up the news
Speaker 1: with you, Joey, So thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: here where can folks, what do you got going on
Speaker 1: that folk should know about. Maybe the answer is nothing,
Speaker 1: but maybe maybe you want to plug something.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Bridget.
Speaker 4: It was lovely as always, but as the dystopian chaos continues.
Speaker 4: If you want to hear more things that I'm working on,
Speaker 4: you should check out After Lives, the Leleien Planco story,
Speaker 4: hopefully some new projects a lug way. I should be
Speaker 4: on stuff Mom've never told you soon talking about more
Speaker 4: TikTok chaos and this state of TikTok at the moment,
Speaker 4: which will be a fun time.
Speaker 3: So TVD on that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, if you want to follow me as always,
Speaker 4: you can to follow me on Twitter or Instagram at
Speaker 4: Pat not Pratt.
Speaker 3: It's p a t t n O T p r
Speaker 3: a t T.
Speaker 1: The first time I had you on the show, Joey,
Speaker 1: I think I credited you as Joey Pratt and you
Speaker 1: were like, it's actually Pat not Pratt.
Speaker 2: Actually why it's my social.
Speaker 4: It has been my social since I was sixteen, and
Speaker 4: it was because if I have Pat my entire life.
Speaker 3: People calling me.
Speaker 4: My last name Pratt, which is an understandable mistake, but
Speaker 4: that is not in fact my last name.
Speaker 1: So pat not Pratch. Thank you for being here, and
Speaker 1: thanks to all of you for listening. If you want
Speaker 1: more ad free content, check out our Patreon at patreon
Speaker 1: dot com. Flash Tegody see you on the Internet. If
Speaker 1: you're looking for ways to support the show, check out
Speaker 1: our merch store at tegoty dot com slash store. Got
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just
Speaker 1: want to say hi, You can reach us at Hello
Speaker 1: at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for
Speaker 1: today's episode.
Speaker 2: At tengody dot com.
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
Speaker 1: me Bridget Tood. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative,
Speaker 1: edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridge Tood. If
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Speaker 6: He