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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's be honest. Today, my inner teenager is losing her

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Speaker 1: mind because truly one of my musical idols has come

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Speaker 1: on the show, and I'm going to try to keep

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Speaker 1: it cool and not tell her about like singing aggressively

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Speaker 1: along to every single one of her songs in the

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Speaker 1: shower through all of my emo teenage years. Jewel is

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Speaker 1: here with us today, having sold more than thirty million

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Speaker 1: albums opened for Bob, Dylan traveled the world singing songs

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Speaker 1: that moved all of us, which she expressed felt more

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Speaker 1: like prayers than necessarily chorus is written. She is just

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Speaker 1: someone who I think has always encouraged us to feel

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Speaker 1: and to see each other. It's no surprise that her

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Speaker 1: illustrious career has also led her to becoming a mental

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Speaker 1: health advocate. Through her platform in her world, she makes

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Speaker 1: sure that people who don't have access to traditional therapy

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Speaker 1: have access to the tools that can reduce anxiety and

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Speaker 1: suicidal ideation. She does all of this while writing thousands

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Speaker 1: of songs, parenting her young son, and being one of

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Speaker 1: the most inspiring and thoughtful people I've ever had the

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Speaker 1: pleasure of having a conversation with and she's here today

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Speaker 1: not only to talk about mental health, but the twenty

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Speaker 1: fifth anniversary of her album Spirit. It was her sophomore record,

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Speaker 1: and thanks to a very special fan, she has unearthed

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Speaker 1: some rare recordings and is doing a re release of

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Speaker 1: the record with songs we've never heard, some new songs,

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Speaker 1: and some of our favorites all rolled into one incredible album.

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Speaker 1: Let's speak to Jule about how she may to do

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Speaker 1: it all Enjoy. I'm just so thrilled to have you

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Speaker 1: on the show today, and I really want to do

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Speaker 1: something with you that I like to do with a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who join me, because so many people

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Speaker 1: tuning in to listen to you know you as this

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Speaker 1: incredible recording artist and a thought leader and an advocate

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Speaker 1: and all of these big, beautiful things that you are,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a woman in the world. And I'm

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Speaker 1: always really curious if you look back in hindsight, you know,

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Speaker 1: at your life and career, if you look at yourself

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Speaker 1: at you know, eight or nine years old, like little

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Speaker 1: girl Joel, do you see sort of threads of the

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Speaker 1: same human where you always create a an artful do

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Speaker 1: you feel like Yeah, who do you feel like she

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Speaker 1: was as a little girl?

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Speaker 2: Who was I at eight? Is that is that? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's see, eight was a big year for me. It

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Speaker 2: was the year my mom left, my parents got divorced,

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Speaker 2: started living with my dad. You know, had a lot

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Speaker 2: of trauma, but we didn't know us. We'd been this

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Speaker 2: Mormon family up to then, very like family home evening

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Speaker 2: and kind of very leave it to beaver, maybe even

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Speaker 2: in Anchorage, Alaska. And then we moved to home where

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Speaker 2: my mom left. My dad started drinking, smoking, being physically

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Speaker 2: abusive my dad and I started bar singing as a

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Speaker 2: living So it was a really radical life shift. So

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Speaker 2: eight I just remember being like a really huge shift

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Speaker 2: in my life. What was I like? I was very observant,

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Speaker 2: very watchful, And I say that's very consistent about who

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Speaker 2: I am and what I'm like now. I'd say a

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Speaker 2: lot of the things I began learning definitely started at

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Speaker 2: that age. And I can definitely pinpoint several realizations I

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Speaker 2: had at that age that stick with me to this day.

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Speaker 1: Wow. I have asked I think two hundred people that

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Speaker 1: question and didn't have the realization that your answer just

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Speaker 1: gave to me until you said it, which is I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, it's so weird that, like,

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Speaker 1: of all the years I could ask you about why,

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Speaker 1: I wonder why it would have been that one and

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Speaker 1: then some I think my inner eight year old was like,

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Speaker 1: you went through family trauma at eight too. Maybe that's

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Speaker 1: why you ask everyone what they were doing at eight.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to tell my therapist about this.

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Speaker 2: That's wild, and that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that level of a shift at that age

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Speaker 1: I just imagined to be so so formative.

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Speaker 2: Trauma at any age, I guess is right. It definitely

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Speaker 2: causes us to search, and there's some, you know, great

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Speaker 2: things that come of it. There's some things that I

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Speaker 2: can think back on during that time of my life

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Speaker 2: that were really helpful, that were really good realizations. And

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Speaker 2: then other things, of course, just coping mechanisms, assumptions you

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Speaker 2: make about yourself, your worth, and those types of things

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Speaker 2: which take years of unwinding.

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Speaker 1: Yes, of course, and and those those assumptions and those

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Speaker 1: connect the dots that are our tiny brains tend to

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Speaker 1: create or make that as you develop an age, you go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I see how I told that story, and I see

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Speaker 1: how it was it just wasn't quite right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a you know, we're little kids making

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Speaker 2: up stories about why our needs aren't getting met or

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Speaker 2: are getting met. Yeah, but it's fascinating. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 2: fascinating study.

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Speaker 1: Wow. When when you talk about how you and your

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Speaker 1: dad started to perform together in that in that stage

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Speaker 1: of life, was there music present in house before this

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Speaker 1: big shift? Was music a constant through line or did

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Speaker 1: it come into your life as a result of that shift?

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Speaker 1: In your family?

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Speaker 2: Dynamic music was a constant. My parents had shows four

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Speaker 2: tourists in hotels and so it was like a family

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Speaker 2: variety show at like the cruise ships would you know,

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Speaker 2: get off an anchorage and then come to the hotel

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Speaker 2: and this dinner show would happen where my mom and

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Speaker 2: dad put on a show. There was a film about

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Speaker 2: my grandfather and grandmother who helped settle Alaska, and so

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Speaker 2: my dad was part of this original pioneering family in Alaska.

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Speaker 2: But all my aunts and uncles saying, all of my

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Speaker 2: cousins singing was really developed because of my grandmother. She

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Speaker 2: had been an aspiring opera singer and a poetus and

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Speaker 2: she left those dreams behind to escape Germany during the

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Speaker 2: Second World War, and all of her kids to sing

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Speaker 2: and write. So I had a really artistic family.

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Speaker 1: That's an incredible family legacy. And yeah, and as as

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Speaker 1: you got older, I mean, I remember, gosh, it's crazy

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Speaker 1: to think that you're you know, we're talking about this

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Speaker 1: twenty five year anniversary of the record, and you know

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Speaker 1: you've done this beautiful reissue and there's all these new

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Speaker 1: songs on it. I'm like, oh my god, twenty five

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Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, that is when I was like in

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Speaker 1: my in my real emo feelings, like singing along when

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Speaker 1: it premiered in my room. I remember even then as

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Speaker 1: a as a teenager, you know, reading about your stories

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Speaker 1: and hearing the way you spoke about making art when

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Speaker 1: I was still trying to figure out if that was

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Speaker 1: something I was going to do. And I remember being

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Speaker 1: so struck then about you talking about experiencing a period

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Speaker 1: of homelessness as a teen because thinking about it and

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Speaker 1: going like, what would I do? How how would I

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Speaker 1: make it through that? Like would me or any of

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Speaker 1: my friends, you know, be so capable? Would we be

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Speaker 1: able to create something beautiful out of something hard? Looking

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Speaker 1: back on that now, what like, what do you recall

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Speaker 1: from that period, because I remember reading that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you turned down this big record deal during that time,

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Speaker 1: and I just I think, like when I was a teenager,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe the wherewithal and the drive that you had.

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Speaker 1: And now as a forty one year old woman, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Like, girl, how did you do any of that?

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Speaker 1: What is it like to kind of reflect on that

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Speaker 1: on this, on this or during I guess during this

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Speaker 1: anniversary moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, life gives us so many good things along with

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Speaker 2: the bad. You know, I was raised in this pioneer

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Speaker 2: state where there weren't gender rules. I was raised on

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Speaker 2: a ranch where there weren't gender roles, and shoe their

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Speaker 2: own horses and build their own log cabins. I was

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Speaker 2: taught to work. I wasn't taught to work differently because

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Speaker 2: I was a girl. I was expected to figure things

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Speaker 2: out and get things done. And so even though I

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Speaker 2: had a lot of things going against me, you know,

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Speaker 2: like abusive household, in those things, that was a really

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Speaker 2: good thing going for me. I didn't know that I

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Speaker 2: was lesser because I was a female, and part of

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Speaker 2: my natural resources, you know, we developed negative coping mechanisms.

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Speaker 2: But sometimes I think there's something else called brilliant resilience.

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Speaker 2: We tap into parts of our nature that are an

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Speaker 2: innate gift to us. Part of one of my innate

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Speaker 2: gifts was I was very independent. I just was. I

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Speaker 2: was the kid that didn't mind not being at the

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Speaker 2: sleepover or you know, just doing my own thing or

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Speaker 2: sitting quiet. That just so when I wanted to move

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Speaker 2: out at fifteen, that felt better. Taking on, you know,

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Speaker 2: rent and trying to pay rent and trying to take

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Speaker 2: on jobs felt better to me then staying in a

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Speaker 2: house with my dad who wasn't nice to me. And

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Speaker 2: so that was that independent thing that really worked for me.

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Speaker 2: And then being raised in Alaska as well and around nature.

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Speaker 2: Nature doesn't lie. If you know how nature works, you

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Speaker 2: know how physics works, and so there's no shortcut. You know,

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Speaker 2: hardwood grows slowly, takes a long time. Softwood grows quickly

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Speaker 2: falls over. So you kind of put all this together.

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Speaker 2: I turned down having sex with the boss when I

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Speaker 2: was eighteen. That's how it became homeless, got discovered at

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Speaker 2: the end of that year, and when I was offered

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Speaker 2: this big record signing bonus. It just nobody's given anything

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Speaker 2: for free that I just know that. I just knew

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Speaker 2: that because of how I was raised. It's not free money.

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Speaker 2: It's not a free million dollars. But nobody was telling

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Speaker 2: me what it cost me either, And so I had

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Speaker 2: to educate myself what is the cost of this free

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Speaker 2: million dollars? And is that a cost I want to pay?

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Speaker 2: And it turns out that wasn't a cost I wanted

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Speaker 2: to pay. It would have leveraged me. It would have

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Speaker 2: meant I had to have a really successful album, which

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Speaker 2: nobody can force a successful album. So that's ridiculous and

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Speaker 2: a lot of pressure to put on yourself, which wasn't

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Speaker 2: pressure I wanted. And then when I learned how the

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Speaker 2: contracts worked, the math was just I'd have to sell

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Speaker 2: so many albums to repay it. It was alone. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that's just not what I wanted. I wanted a career,

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Speaker 2: and so my motto was hardwood grow slowly. And so

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Speaker 2: I had to make sure that I was building and

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Speaker 2: I was advocating for myself, and that was building something

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Speaker 2: that would protect art and protect me to have what

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Speaker 2: I actually wanted, which was a long term career.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's mind blowing. First of all, hardwood grows

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Speaker 1: slowly is such a good motto and brilliant resilience, Like

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, I came of age like sneaking

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Speaker 1: home from school a little early every day to watch Oprah,

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Speaker 1: and I just think about like when Oprah is like

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Speaker 1: somebody tweet it, I'm like that, Like those phrases belong on,

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Speaker 1: like bumper stickers and refrigerator magnets, like I want to

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Speaker 1: look at it every day like affirmation. But to think

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Speaker 1: about the fact that you had the wherewithal to pause

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Speaker 1: and analyze so young and in such a difficult moment

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Speaker 1: in your life when you know, I mean, a million

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Speaker 1: dollar contract sounds like such a life raft. How did

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Speaker 1: you begin to analyze what that really meant? Because you're right,

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Speaker 1: nobody gives anything away for free. The trade offs, as

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Speaker 1: you learned them, weren't worth it. But did you have

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Speaker 1: people to go to or were you trying to do research,

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Speaker 1: you know, by looking things up? Like how did you

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Speaker 1: even make sense of this huge world of you know,

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Speaker 1: the industry that stands up the art we make because

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Speaker 1: the industry is not particularly gentle or artistic. It is

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Speaker 1: a banking situation. But it's fascinating to me that you

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Speaker 1: figured that out at eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think again, it's just a gift of of

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Speaker 2: growing up in bars. You learned to be street smart,

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Speaker 2: You learn to nothing's what it seems. You learn to

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Speaker 2: trust your gut and trust your instincts. You learn to

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Speaker 2: rely on yourself. You learn there are no shortcuts and

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Speaker 2: nothing's for free, so you just kind of start to

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Speaker 2: really learn those lessons. I'm also dyslexic, and I think

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Speaker 2: that as hard as it was and as stupid as

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Speaker 2: I thought I was most of my life because I

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Speaker 2: didn't do well in school and lots of other reasons,

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Speaker 2: it made me really good at patterns in a way

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Speaker 2: that I didn't know to appreciate until much much later.

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Speaker 2: Like looking back, it's some part of how my brain works.

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Speaker 2: Like when I was eight, because you were asking about eight,

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Speaker 2: I was in these bars. I was really sad, right

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Speaker 2: a mom left abusive dad suddenly, like my life changed

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Speaker 2: so much. And as I started singing in these bar rooms,

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Speaker 2: what I noticed is we all had something in common.

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Speaker 2: We were all in pain, and nobody talked about it.

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Speaker 2: I was in a world pain that was so acute

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Speaker 2: to me. It was so I was so aware of

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Speaker 2: the pain. I was in and then I looked around

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Speaker 2: and I was like, wait a minute, I have a

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Speaker 2: front row seat to watching other people in pain, and

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Speaker 2: I'm watching people drink, do drugs get in? These crazy

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Speaker 2: volatile relationships, anger, addiction just a lot of different ways.

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Speaker 2: And then you watch it play out and you're like,

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Speaker 2: I remember writing down on my notebook, nobody outruns pain.

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Speaker 2: Nobody out runs it, Like why aren't we taught what

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Speaker 2: to do with it? And so I knew it became

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Speaker 2: my job to learn what to do with pain, and

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Speaker 2: that was a question I put in my book, what

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Speaker 2: do I do with pain? And so then I had

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Speaker 2: heard about the buffalo goes into the heart of the storm.

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Speaker 2: The quickest way is through, and that really hit me,

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Speaker 2: as you universal truth, The quickest way is through move

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Speaker 2: toward my pain. And so the tool I had at

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Speaker 2: my disposal was writing. I liked writing. I journaled, and

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Speaker 2: so I used writing to move toward my pain. And

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Speaker 2: so I just think it's little things like that you

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Speaker 2: start to pick up of like I want to handle

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Speaker 2: my pain directly. I can't avoid it by doing drugs

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Speaker 2: or numbing out. You still have to deal with your pain.

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Speaker 2: The quickest way is through and you start to kind

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Speaker 2: of piece things like that together on top of a

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Speaker 2: lot of street smarts, you know, on top of just

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Speaker 2: having to advocate for myself. It was the perfect training

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Speaker 2: ground to hit the record industry because it is a

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Speaker 2: tough business. This is a tough business and it's full

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Speaker 2: of tough people. But I grew up around biker bars

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Speaker 2: and you know, all kinds of things, and so I

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Speaker 2: felt like it was the perfect training. I felt very

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Speaker 2: lucky to have received that training, you know, and to

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Speaker 2: have made it.

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Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really

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Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. It also really

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Speaker 1: strikes me, you know, you just said you received training

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Speaker 1: the what must have been your natural inclination towards being

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Speaker 1: such a receptive and observational human being, even in a

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Speaker 1: tiny little body, to go through those shifts you were

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Speaker 1: going through, and to be able to see the universal

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Speaker 1: truth around you from such a young age, it strikes

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Speaker 1: me as being so poetic, which feels like, well, duh,

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Speaker 1: of course, that incredible lens for seeing you know, what's

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Speaker 1: underneath in such a poetic manner would serve you so

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Speaker 1: beautifully as a writer. And I'm struck by this sort

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Speaker 1: of like balance this dichotomy that it seems like you've

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Speaker 1: held for a long time growing up, between you know,

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Speaker 1: the beauty and the reality of people's pain.

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Speaker 2: That was, yeah, an interesting thing for me in the nineties.

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Speaker 2: You know, grunge was the big thing, which was great,

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Speaker 2: you know, and when Nirvana came on, it was like

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Speaker 2: a revelation. You know, until then it was Madonna's world.

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Speaker 2: It was we're living in a material world and I'm

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Speaker 2: a material girl and pop and you know, Nirvana just

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Speaker 2: came on and ripped scabs off the psyche and admitted

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Speaker 2: we feel like and it was a revelation and a

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Speaker 2: whole generation felt like, yeah, I don't feel like a happy,

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Speaker 2: shiny person, and that's beautiful. It's a really important part.

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Speaker 2: You can only say I feel miserable for so long

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Speaker 2: until you want to kill yourself. Yeah, and so then

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Speaker 2: you have to ask yourself, now what, now what? I'm

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Speaker 2: in pain? Now what? I just happened to deal with

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Speaker 2: that at such a young age. But by the time

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Speaker 2: I was eighteen, my now what I was already asking

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Speaker 2: now what? And my music was about now what. But

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Speaker 2: it wasn't out of naivete that I wrote I'm sensitive.

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Speaker 2: You know. It wasn't out of naivete that I wrote

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Speaker 2: the line in the end, only kindness matters. It was

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Speaker 2: from a very gritty streety. The street informed. I knew

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Speaker 2: the screaming blood of my own losses. I knew the

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Speaker 2: screaming blood of the pain of the society I was in.

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Speaker 2: And to choose to remain open, to choose to become

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Speaker 2: more loving instead of more bitter, is a real act

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Speaker 2: of courage. It's a real active power. But in the

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Speaker 2: nineties that was perceived as ignorant and pollyanna. You know,

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Speaker 2: I was ridiculed in the press. The press, which was

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Speaker 2: of course very male dominated, just tore me apart. And

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Speaker 2: I always just thought how they would call me naive,

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Speaker 2: And I just remember thinking how sheltered and naive they were.

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Speaker 2: They knew nothing of the choices I had to make

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Speaker 2: to be the human that I was at that age,

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Speaker 2: and that me choosing to live and me choosing to

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Speaker 2: be kind was the most formidable active rebellion that they'd

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Speaker 2: ever seen, and they didn't even know enough to know

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Speaker 2: what it was.

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Speaker 1: And that that sort of domination and the larger patriarchy

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Speaker 1: we have all been steeped in for so many generations.

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Speaker 1: The dominance of it misses the mark of the amount

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Speaker 1: of evolving you had done at such a young age,

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Speaker 1: because when you talk about reaching that courageousness and it

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Speaker 1: being the opposite of naivete, if you had been I

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Speaker 1: don't know, walking around like Glorious Deinem does today in

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Speaker 1: the world telling people what it is, they would have

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Speaker 1: gone a lot. A wise woman, she's seen some things.

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Speaker 1: But you were eighteen, you know, with a cherubic face

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Speaker 1: and the voice of an angel, and they were going, oh,

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Speaker 1: sweet little baby, and they were missing how far you'd

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Speaker 1: come in such a short number of years.

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Speaker 2: And I could say it in the press, I could

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Speaker 2: say it in interviews. I just think at the time

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Speaker 2: there was such an inability for them to. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I have a really specific view on it, right, because

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's my life. But you know, I saw

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Speaker 2: a lot of you know, bands that I didn't think

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Speaker 2: had a tremendous amount of How do I say it,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of a right way to articulate this.

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Speaker 2: I watched a lot of people during the nineties get

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Speaker 2: labeled as credible, and I saw other people get labeled

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Speaker 2: as sellouts, and it wasn't always accurate. You really kind

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Speaker 2: of had to know what the motive was. You know,

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Speaker 2: how many times was I backstage watching male bands spend

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Speaker 2: an hour making their hair look like they didn't do

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Speaker 2: it yeah, and then walk out as if they didn't care,

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Speaker 2: when I just saw them care for three hours in

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Speaker 2: hair and makeup and then act like they didn't. So

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Speaker 2: it's it's kind of funny little hypocrisies. And for me,

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Speaker 2: in my own life and in my own body, all

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Speaker 2: I was interested in is how do I continue to

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Speaker 2: live and want to live? And that was my primary interest,

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Speaker 2: that was my only interest. And luckily I had the Internet,

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Speaker 2: so it really didn't matter what the critics thought. What

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Speaker 2: really mattered is I was able to have direct access

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Speaker 2: to people like you. I was able to have direct

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Speaker 2: access and directly talk to people, and so I could

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Speaker 2: tell them they actually knew the thrust of where I

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Speaker 2: was coming from, and that was amazing, Like it was

365
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Speaker 2: a miracle. I was. My curse started at the dawn

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Speaker 2: of the Internet, and that's the only reason I had

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Speaker 2: a career because it definitely would have been stopped.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's so cool. It's interesting that this idea of

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Speaker 1: what you got to see versus the sort of stories

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Speaker 1: told by the press. I'm really fascinated by. I think

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Speaker 1: especially for women. They like to pigeonhole us wherever they can,

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Speaker 1: for whatever clicks they're going to get. And it's wild

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Speaker 1: to see, how you know, even now people going through

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Speaker 1: the exact same things. Some are lionized, some are demonized.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like, well, where are you useful to us?

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Speaker 1: It's not about your truth at all. And I think

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Speaker 1: you know, we're seeing this moment where the Internet is

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Speaker 1: sort of cannibalizing itself. Unfortunately it's gotten so polarized, but

379
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Speaker 1: still you have the opportunity to cut through the noise

380
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Speaker 1: if you just say, look, the truth is the truth.

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Speaker 1: My experience is exactly what it is. You can feel

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Speaker 1: however you want to feel about it, but this is

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Speaker 1: my life. And for you to have been able to

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Speaker 1: do that right at this sort of dawn of that

385
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: age must have must have felt really empowering. Was it

386
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Speaker 1: also scary?

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Speaker 2: Nobody can stop you from being yourself. You know, you

388
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Speaker 2: can only be pigeonholed if you play along. Like for

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Speaker 2: me experimenting and changing my styles that was considered to

390
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Speaker 2: sell out for me, if I had just made Pieces

391
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Speaker 2: of youer point two and point three, that would have

392
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Speaker 2: been a sellout. But only I knew that. That's just

393
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Speaker 2: because of what I'm like. That's what I know about myself.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, if I was more afraid, I

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Speaker 2: guess of what people thought of me, I would have

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Speaker 2: done something more consistent so that I would have been

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Speaker 2: perceived as credible. But that would have been selling out.

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Speaker 2: And so I'd rather not do that, even if it's

399
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Speaker 2: perceived as the opposite, because I have to go to

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Speaker 2: sleep with myself at night, you know, so nobody can

401
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Speaker 2: stop you from doing what you know in your heart

402
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Speaker 2: is right, and then you trust over the course of

403
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Speaker 2: time that that plays out or it doesn't, and then

404
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: you just make sure you're careful with your money and

405
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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. But I think that's the beauty of

406
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Speaker 2: life all the time. It's that. That was the beauty

407
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Speaker 2: of me telling my boss that I wouldn't have sex

408
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Speaker 2: with them. It was the beauty of him saying I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to give you your paycheck and me saying, fine,

410
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Speaker 2: I'll live in my car. Like nobody can make you.

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Speaker 2: You can't make me. You can't. You can't be leveraged.

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Speaker 2: If you refuse to be leveraged, you will pay price.

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Speaker 2: You know. I knew I was going to pay the

414
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Speaker 2: price of getting kicked out where I was living, and

415
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Speaker 2: that wasn't a price I wanted to pay. But I

416
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: knew the investment I was making was in my humanity,

417
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Speaker 2: and I believed. I've seen people sell about the humanity

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Speaker 2: and I saw the price they paid. They never made

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Speaker 2: it back. I thought I could make it out of

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Speaker 2: living in my car.

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Speaker 1: That's a really special distinction to be able to make

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Speaker 1: because it is so scary to feel like you could

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Speaker 1: lose everything to stand up for yourself. And I feel

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Speaker 1: like when you talk about, you know, the grittiness of

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Speaker 1: Alaska as a place, the grittiness of the way that

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Speaker 1: you grew up, what you were taught, the way you weren't,

427
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Speaker 1: you know, overly gendered young in your life, all of

428
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: that adds to a resilience, like you said, And you know,

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Speaker 1: even when you talk about the sort of wounds of

430
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Speaker 1: life and the things you'd seen and going through abuse,

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Speaker 1: when you talk about it in the context of watching

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Speaker 1: nature as a person who's only spent a week in Alaska,

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Speaker 1: but it absolutely changed my life. I think it's the

434
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: most magical place on earth. I was like, oh, yeah,

435
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: when you get really up close, you just see how

436
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: it works, and it's brutal and it's beautiful, and it

437
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,479
Speaker 1: works as a system. It doesn't care about you as

438
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: an individual. Yeah, and there is something I think, yeah,

439
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: something that must sort of stamp that kind of resilience

440
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: on your soul from a really young age that I

441
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: would imagine made you very formidable to so many people,

442
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: including the boss that you rejected.

443
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: I feel so lucky I had the type of childhood

444
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: I had in Alaska. If I had been abused and neglected,

445
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: and I had periods of it in urban environments, but

446
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 2: I had so much time in big nature that it

447
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: was a medicine. It parented me. It taught me how

448
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: the world worked. It taught me how to be a human.

449
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: It taught me nothing lasts forever, that everything changes, so

450
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: even my depression would have to change. I was part

451
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,719
Speaker 2: of nature, I was part of physics. It taught me

452
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 2: so many lessons that I don't know if I could

453
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: have overcome without it. It definitely. And then you know,

454
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,239
Speaker 2: I was raised in a barn. I was raised with

455
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 2: no electricity. I was raised with an outhouse. So living

456
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 2: in my car, you know, a boss threatens me and

457
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 2: I'm like, I have to live in my car in

458
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: San Diego. Woo. You know it definitely was like so

459
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: real and I do have to say too, Like when

460
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: I was homeless, I learned. I learned how to be happy.

461
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: I learned how to stop shoplifting. I learned how how

462
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: I get a grip on my panic attacks. I learned

463
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: how to get a grip on my agoraphobia. When you

464
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 2: can do that inside your own body, by yourself, it

465
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: makes you so powerful. And so that was another reason

466
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: that when labels came to see me and they were like, well,

467
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: make you rich and famous, I was like, that actually

468
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: sounds dangerous for somebody with my background. I just started

469
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 2: to get some relief in my body from some really

470
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 2: awful things. I wouldn't trade it. You know. It made

471
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: me that my internal life was so real that the

472
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: false reality of what and then the real danger God

473
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 2: forbids somebody who my background gets famous. That is the

474
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: bad ending of every movie you've seen, of every biopic

475
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: about every musician, Like my life story should end very

476
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 2: badly and I knew it, and so I just constantly

477
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: had to be like, how am I going to not

478
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: let this story end up badly? And that's up to me?

479
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that sort of agency and again that really

480
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: special perspective that you have. I even wonder in the

481
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: context of what we know now. You know, you talked

482
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: about what you went through with your boss, what it

483
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: led to, you know, living in your car, which you

484
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: managed to to really get the marrow out of the experience,

485
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: Like I think about I know I mentioned this earlier too,

486
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: but my therapist is one of my favorite people on

487
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: the planet, is a cognitive behavioral specialist, and I'm like,

488
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: he is gonna love this episode because so much of

489
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: what you're talking about is learning to be sort of

490
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: your own rudder inside of the discomfort. And it strikes

491
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: me in the context of the way we talk and

492
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: the way we've all connected now, you know, even in

493
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen Me too, you know, breaking into this nationwide

494
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: and global conversation. You had talked about you or me

495
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: too experience so long before, and it seemed like nobody

496
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: really wanted to hear it, nobody wanted to take anybody

497
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: seriously before they were really forced to, and even now

498
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how much they're really being forced to.

499
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: But when people wouldn't listen to you, then were there

500
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: tools you relied on or was it that sort of trust,

501
00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: that internal compass that you had that you'd fortify that

502
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: really let you stand in that truth and in your power.

503
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: During that experience.

504
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: The press, you know, I would tell people what happened

505
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: in the press, and then what would get written was

506
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: that Punky Gal lived in her car to pursue her dreams.

507
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 2: And you're like, all right, how did that get turned

508
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: into that? Yeah, but it's it doesn't. Yeah, you don't

509
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: live for the permission of people. It is what it is.

510
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: I think the reason I felt powerful at that time,

511
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: why I always was a good negotiator and contracts, was

512
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: because I knew you couldn't leverage me. I didn't want

513
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: money more than I wanted happiness. I didn't want fame

514
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: more than I wanted peace. You can't leverage someone like that.

515
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: It's you know, if somebody knows they can live with nothing,

516
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: what are you going to do? What are you going

517
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: to threaten them with? You know, you can only leverage

518
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: yourself by your insecurity, right, our insecurity leverages us. Our

519
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: wounds leverage us. And so the more we can hear,

520
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: the more we can invest in our humanity, the more

521
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: we can advocate for ourselves, even if nobody else is.

522
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: It doesn't take other people seeing it or applauding it,

523
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: because that's a trust you build in yourself, to trust

524
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: you building your body through time. And it was also

525
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: a shit show. You know, I'm fifty here talking about

526
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: a long time ago in my life, and so it

527
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: sounds quite tidy. It was frightening and scary and messy

528
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: and all kinds of things, you know, but you just

529
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: keep putting one foot in front of the other and saying,

530
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: you know that guiding principle that guides you. It's really

531
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,719
Speaker 2: good to know what those are. And for some reason

532
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: I was very interested in what I actually ended up

533
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: developing during that year of homelessness was DBT and CBT

534
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: tools for myself. I developed behavioral tools because I realized

535
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: my behavior was driving my life right like my shoplifting

536
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,239
Speaker 2: was going to get me addrested. My panic attacks were

537
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: causing it to where I couldn't leave my street corner

538
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: or get out of my car to go get food,

539
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: and so how could I change those behaviors, and how

540
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: could I make those behaviors practicable so that I could

541
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: see results. I had to see changes in my life.

542
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: It couldn't just be a theory. I had to actually

543
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: get results. And so again, when you start to develop

544
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: those kinds of tools and you start to like get

545
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: those kinds of results for yourself, it just again it

546
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: made me value and what I did like for my

547
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: record career. I decided to sign that contract because I

548
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: made myself a promise. That was this north star guiding

549
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: principle of my number one jobs, to learn how to

550
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: be happy? I knew, I didn't know how. I wanted

551
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: to know if it was a learnable skill, was it

552
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: a teachable skill. It wasn't ever taught in my family history.

553
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: So I had to learn a new emotional language. You know.

554
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: The language I was taught emotionally led to misery, abuse,

555
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: and addictions. So I didn't learn a new emotional language.

556
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: There's no college, so I had to put that together.

557
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,479
Speaker 2: My number two job was to be a musician, and

558
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 2: under a musician. I wanted to be an artist more

559
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: than I wanted to be famous. And so with those

560
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: guiding principles, I let myself sign that contract, and I'm

561
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: really proud. I am very proud to be in forty nine,

562
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: really proud to be forty nine. And I've never let

563
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: those promises down. And it wasn't perfect, and it's been messy,

564
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: and it's been wildly messy, but I've always made every

565
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: decision trying to live up to those two goals. And

566
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: those goals are enough to again help the trajectory. It

567
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: gets you there in the long run. It's some of

568
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: this in the meantime that you end up over here.

569
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. I appreciate

570
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: the way that you can talk about how it feels

571
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: tidy now because you've done all of the work. You

572
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: can speak from a perspective and then remind folks listening

573
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 1: that in the midst of it, it is a storm,

574
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: is a mess, that's what our life is. But I

575
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: do think that you know, the at least for me,

576
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: the sort of specialness of learning things and going through

577
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: hard things and experiencing hardship is that then years later,

578
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: in hindsight, you can sit around with people and lean

579
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: in about what this has taught us, how it's made

580
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: us more human, what little nuggets we might be able

581
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: to offer other people to make their current you know,

582
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: mess in the storm, like eight percent less messy. What

583
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: a gift that could be if possible.

584
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, these little you know for me, like deciding I

585
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: was going to put my happiness about every other single

586
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: thing in my life, my life changed. That's enough to

587
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: change the trajectory of your life.

588
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: I love that if.

589
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: You make every decision based on that. Does this add

590
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: to my happiness? I don't mean like excitement, I don't

591
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: mean perks. I don't mean like I'm going to get

592
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: the car to like make myself happy. I mean that,

593
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: I mean am I substantially doing better as a human?

594
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: Do I have higher levels? Like? Is my satisfaction writing higher?

595
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: Or is it not? Can I audit that about myself?

596
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: How do I quantify it? If you can ask yourself

597
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: those questions, it's going to change your life. But when

598
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: I made excuses of why I couldn't be happy, and

599
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: you know, I work with kids a lot. We do

600
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: a lot of work with kids with suicidal ideation, self harm,

601
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: anxiety disorders, And something I talk a lot about is

602
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: when we stop making excuses, we get healthier. And excuses

603
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: I are different than reasons. So, like, I had a

604
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: lot of reasons why I couldn't be happy, Right, I

605
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: had a lot of reasons. You can point to a

606
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: lot of things in my life and go, yeah, I

607
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: see why I'm not happy. Was I willing to let

608
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: that be an excuse though? Or did the book stop

609
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: with me? Was I willing to be accountable for my happiness?

610
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: For me, it was realizing nobody's coming for me. Nobody

611
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: owes me anything? What do I owe myself? Yeah? Am

612
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: I coming for me? Am I going to stop making

613
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: excuses for why I can't be happy? I know I

614
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: have a lot of reasons to not be, But am

615
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 2: I going to make excuses for it anymore? I'm an

616
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: adult now, what you know?

617
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah? And so how does that fit in setting those

618
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: sort of to all important rules for yourself? How does

619
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 1: that fit in in the journey? You know, you said

620
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: no to the first deal and then obviously another opportunity

621
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: came along and that felt better. And you know you

622
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: did make this incredible debut record that took all of

623
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: us in the world by storm. How how did that happen?

624
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: What was that moment sort of like and how did

625
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: you know that it was the right thing to do.

626
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I had turned down a record deal maybe

627
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: when I was sixteen. It was creepy, pervy. I don't

628
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: even know if it was going to be a real

629
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: record deal. It just smelt wrong. So who knows what

630
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: that was, but right, And then when I was eighteen

631
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: and homeless got discovered, turned down a million dollar signing.

632
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: Bonus took a big back end set about trying to

633
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 2: make hardwood grow slowly folk record. At the height of grunge,

634
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: I did a thousand shows a year at least, oh,

635
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 2: I did five and six shows a day, so maybe

636
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: twelve hundred shows a year easily in two cities a day.

637
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: It's not cute, you know. I turned down The Real

638
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: World was a huge reality the first reality show, I

639
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 2: think maybe, And I remember my label coming to me.

640
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: I hadn't made my record yet and they were like,

641
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: you're not going to believe it. There's this show. It

642
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: you live in a house with other people and there's

643
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: cameras in the house and they filmed me twenty four

644
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: to seven and we could watch you go from being

645
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: homeless to making your album, so that by the time

646
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 2: you launch your album, you'll be a household name, and

647
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: they really wanted me to do it, but that wasn't

648
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: Hardwood grows slowly, that was my motto. So it's like

649
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: I was just loyal to my motto, as dumb as

650
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: it is, and you know, everybody screaming at me saying,

651
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: you're ruining your chance at a huge deal here. But

652
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: it supported fame over artistry, and it supported quick growth

653
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: over slow growth, and so I just I turned it

654
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: down based on that, as silly as that sounds. And

655
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: then my album failed for a really long time, and

656
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: I did six shows a day. I did shows at

657
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: nine am, I opened for golf bands, I did shows

658
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: at midnight. I drove myself everywhere in a rental car.

659
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: I didn't spend any money, so I couldn't rack up

660
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: a big debt from the label, so I couldn't get dropped.

661
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: You Meant for Me failed? Who Will Save Your Soul? Failed?

662
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: You Meant for Me failed again. I started making a

663
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 2: second album because it failed so hard. And then Bob

664
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 2: Dylan took me out on tour with him and he

665
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: really believed in me, and I was like, you know

666
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: what if Bob Dylan's is the only one that likes

667
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: me like, and he was like, pret gives me that album,

668
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 2: don't give up, stay solo acoustic. And it just kind

669
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: of gave me a courage to go into year two

670
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 2: of failing exhausted. You know, I've done thousands of shows

671
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 2: at this point, and it started to take off, and

672
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: then it took off, and once it did, it started

673
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: selling like a million albums a month for over a year.

674
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: It was insane. Who so you get to spirit the

675
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: album I'm rereleasing right now and it was like, ooh,

676
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: sophomore slump. How will she do it? You're like, Wow,

677
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: what a terrible thing to tell somebody. I didn't even

678
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: know that term existed, but thanks for putting that in

679
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 2: my mind.

680
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: Thanks for giving me an anxiety dish for dinner.

681
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I was like, wait a minute, this

682
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: can I can perceive this one of two ways, Like

683
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 2: this can be the most pressure because I had this

684
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: huge success or I'd made a really good record contract

685
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: and I'm rich and I don't ever have to make

686
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: a penny again if I don't spend it. And I

687
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: know I don't have to spend money. I know I

688
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: can live simply, and that will buy me the fact

689
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: that I don't have to have this pressure on me.

690
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 2: I get to do whatever the f I want. Again, still,

691
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: I still get to do whatever the f I want.

692
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,280
Speaker 2: And so that's where you just put all the voices

693
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 2: for me out of my head. Don't think about what's

694
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: happening at radio, don't think about what you were meant

695
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 2: for me. Sounded like and I wrote hands, which sounded

696
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 2: completely different. It was a very simple plea and the end,

697
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: only kindness matters. And if I could tell the world

698
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: one thing, it'd be that we're okay. I mean, it's

699
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 2: it's a prayer. It's such a strange song to write,

700
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 2: but it's what was in my heart and I didn't

701
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: care if it was a hit or not. And that

702
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: gives you so much liberty.

703
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you when you aren't worried about making people

704
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: like something, but instead you want to do what feels

705
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: right to you. I was reading an article this week

706
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: about Andre three thousand's new album and he's just like, look,

707
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say to anybody anymore.

708
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: I want to play the flute.

709
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: And I was like, this is the coolest thing I've

710
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: seen anybody do it a long time. And I think

711
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: artists like him, Artists like you, who you know you've

712
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: experienced like the biggest universe of success possible in music

713
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: and art making, and you still stay true to the

714
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: thing that feels good in your chest and coming out

715
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: of your mouth. Like that's that is hugely profound, I

716
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 1: would imagine in your own experience. But I will say

717
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: as a person who loves music and makes a different

718
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: kind of art, it's so moving for me to watch.

719
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: It's a great reminder to not get caught up in

720
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: all of the things that people try to put on

721
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: us that aren't ours.

722
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I made an album what last year, I guess.

723
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: I put it out called Freewheeling Woman, and it's the

724
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: first album I've written from scratch. I've always had thousands

725
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: of songs, so even like for a pop album, I

726
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: didn't have to write a pop album. I just had

727
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: at least one hundred pop songs in my catalog, or

728
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 2: country songs or whatever genre ian on it. But I

729
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: wanted this to be who I was at that age

730
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 2: forty seven or something when I was writing it. And

731
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: it was a trip because you know, a song should

732
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: have a chorus coming in at thirty seconds, just dumb.

733
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: She shouldn't know it doesn't help art and not having

734
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: a lot of female singer songwriter role models, we don't

735
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: see many of us make it. We've seen Madonna and Share,

736
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: but we just haven't seen like Joni Mitchell and those

737
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: women come through these phases in our life, through mothering,

738
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: through writing through these phases, and quite frankly, we don't

739
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 2: see many songwriters writing well past their twenties in general,

740
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: male or female. And so it was a really interesting

741
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: thing for me to get this album from scratch, out

742
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 2: of the ground of my being, of who I was now,

743
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: and it felt so empowering. And it was also the

744
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: most difficult thing I'd ever done because I had to

745
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: really face in security. I had to face former sounds

746
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: and versions of myself. I had to find a way

747
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: of sounding free in my body again, and only I

748
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: could tell when that was happening. It was a total trip.

749
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so cool. I guess I never thought about,

750
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: like in my brain, I'm seeing it like you have

751
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: this huge drop box of like dropboxes, just folders and

752
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: folders everywhere of like thousands of songs and to have

753
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: to or guess want to from the place you are

754
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: in this moment, create something all new and not have

755
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: any of those thousands of folders influence it. That's got

756
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: to be a real trip.

757
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 2: It was. It was really an interesting thing because I

758
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: wanted to do it as a woman. I wanted to

759
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: do it as a full grown woman. I wanted to

760
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: do it as a mom. I wanted to do it

761
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 2: as a woman that lived through a divorce. I wanted

762
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: to do it as a woman whose society says you

763
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: quit having value. I wanted to do it as a

764
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: woman that felt powerful, full for who and what I

765
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: was now and not what I often saw women doing

766
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: my career, which was still try to wear whatever, act

767
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: like you're young, and not talk about your child and

768
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: not talk about birth and all of these things. And

769
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: so it was. It was a really interesting and really

770
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 2: cool I mean, I think there wrote two hundred songs

771
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: to get the twelve that I liked.

772
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: Finally, Wow, that's incredible, And it sounds to me like

773
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: what you're talking about is really from this place of

774
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: full embodiment. You know, I'm going through my own version

775
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: of this story, not with a kid involved. But people

776
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: will sort of check in and be like, oh, divorce

777
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: and this and that and how are you doing? And

778
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: it's not that it's easy, It's that I've never felt

779
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: more embodied in my life. I've never known myself this well.

780
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 1: I've never been in this much integrity or this mentally healthy.

781
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 1: And if I had to do it all again and

782
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: make the mistakes I've made to get here, okay, and

783
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I get to do this thing where

784
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: I ask questions and I get to put these stories

785
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: into characters when I film on a stage somewhere. But

786
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: this idea for you as a songwriter, that you get

787
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: to take all of that and tinker and make and write,

788
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: and it's two hundred to get to twelve. I'm so

789
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: fascinated and like enamored by the whole journey that you're describing.

790
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: It's so inspiring.

791
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I relate to what you're saying about. You know,

792
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: a divorce is it isn't fun at all. But when

793
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: you can realize I've made a mistake, my life isn't

794
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: the shape I need it to be. Yes, the shape

795
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: that I've purposefully built is making me feel like a

796
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: prisoner inside of it. I'm dying of unhappiness inside the

797
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: shape I built. Yes, I have to burn it. Down,

798
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: it's powerful. It's an active courage. And again it's not

799
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: like I'm just recommending. I don't suggest every go get divorced.

800
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: I don't think it's something to aspire to. But if

801
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 2: you find yourself in that position, and you find yourself

802
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 2: with a match, and you have the choice of burning

803
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 2: your own life down to the ground and starting over,

804
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: which is heartbreaking and full of grief, But because you

805
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: believe in a vision of what you can feel like

806
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: in your body and how to do it differently, with humility,

807
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 2: without bitterness, without hostility, and just because you know that

808
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 2: that's waiting for you in life. Still, it's a powerful thing.

809
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's full of grief and grace.

810
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 2: You know.

811
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: For me, I love the way that you phrase it.

812
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: I had this conversation. I had an incredible group of

813
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 1: women all going through splits. You know, started in the spring.

814
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: We collected more and more of us through the summer.

815
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: Whatever reason. This year, you know, they're calling this this

816
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: Summer of the Great Divorce. It's like, Okay, something's.

817
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: In the water.

818
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: But I remember saying at one point, I said, you know,

819
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: I built this beautiful house, but I built a house

820
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: for someone else. This isn't my house. I don't I

821
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: this isn't for me, and that's not easy to admit,

822
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: but I think.

823
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 2: It's better than not admitting it.

824
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: Yes, it's better than living it trapped in a beautiful prison.

825
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. When you.

826
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 1: When you think about all this perspective and this new

827
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: place that you made this new record from in the

828
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 1: same season as you're having this re release of spirit

829
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: after twenty five years, what does it kind of feel

830
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: like to hold this beautiful history and all this newness

831
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: at the same time. It is it is it like

832
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: a trip to be on the seesaw or does it

833
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: actually feel like you've just gotten to a place where

834
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: you can hold space for all of it?

835
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: It feels like cottony people scratched their heads. You know,

836
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: my whole career at what I was, I didn't fit

837
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: any tidy boxes and took a lot of punishment for it,

838
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: just in the media. I quitted the height of my fame.

839
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: I was told that that was really shameful, but it

840
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: was because I couldn't psychologically handle the level of fame

841
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 2: I had achieved. It didn't make me happy. I hated it.

842
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: I hated needing bodyguards, I hated all the death threats.

843
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 2: I hated not being able to grocery shop, and I

844
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: had to give myself permission to go. I know I

845
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 2: rarely worked hard for this, but it doesn't work. And again,

846
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 2: being treated so viciously. There wasn't anything like a mental

847
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: health break or those words didn't I was saying them,

848
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 2: you know, I was saying I can't psychologically process and

849
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 2: live with the level of fame I have. It's bad

850
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: for me, it's bad for my psyche. Those things just

851
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: don't translate the same way is the me too. Stuff

852
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: just didn't translate. Switching genres. For me was authenticity. It

853
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: was always perceived as me being a sellout or things

854
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: like that. So for me, it's really fun to defend

855
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 2: my humanity, to defend what I knew was right in

856
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 2: my heart, to make the choices I knew were right,

857
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: even though I was often the only one doing. It's

858
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: a lonely thing. And then you put on top of

859
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 2: like all the other crap that went down during my life,

860
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: it's fun to be here now. It's fun to be

861
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 2: forty nine. It's fun to see gen Z caring about

862
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 2: what they care about because I care about it. I

863
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: fought for that I fought that fight. I'm here for that.

864
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: I love you know. I love where culture and kids

865
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: are grappling and grappling with because that was the integrity

866
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: and that was the fight I was in my whole life.

867
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 2: So I like it. I like knowing what I did

868
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: with Hands and Spirit and why I made that album,

869
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: who it is and what it is said about me

870
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: now and how that continuity has always been there, but

871
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: it took this long for it to kind of play out.

872
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors. You touched on

873
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: this earlier, but it feels like the energy of it

874
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: is in this moment as well with your art, that

875
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: you've used your art to be such a strong advocate

876
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: for mental health and for these conversations around awareness, especially

877
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: with young kids. I just I think it's so beautiful

878
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: the work you do, the conversations that you promote with them.

879
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: And I know that this is the second year that

880
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: you've done your Not Alone Challenge, and I would just

881
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: love to tell the folks at home listening to this

882
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: a little bit about it, and you know what it is,

883
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 1: how you started it, how they can get involved if

884
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: they're so inclined.

885
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, about twenty two years ago, my partner business partner

886
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 2: and I started a youth foundation around mental health, again

887
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: when nobody was talking about it. We have one of

888
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: the highest success rates now in the world of helping

889
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: kids with suicidal ideation and anxiety disorders, and we do

890
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 2: it without traditional therapy. Not that I'm against it, I'm

891
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: all for it, but not everybody is access to it

892
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: and that's unacceptable to me. And there's too many DBT

893
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 2: and CBT skills that are teachable in group settings that

894
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: get tremendous results, that are free and scalable if we

895
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: can figure out how to do that. So that's what

896
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 2: we do in the foundation. The Not Alone Challenge is

897
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: a huge campaign. It's a social media challenge hashtag not

898
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,760
Speaker 2: Alone Challenge. We have celebrities, CEOs, athletes of all types

899
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 2: talking about mental health, why it matters to them, and

900
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: then donating an auction item. There are incredible insane auction

901
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: items that you can get on and then there's also

902
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 2: just like swag you can buy, like a sweatshirt or

903
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 2: things like that. That area is money to make sure

904
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: that we can put tools into the hands of people

905
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 2: that are living in what I call mental health deserts,

906
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: people that have access to technology or as cell phone maybe,

907
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: but not access to a therapist, And so how can

908
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: we put tools in their hands. Right now, we have

909
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 2: five hundred thousand a shortage of five hundred thousand therapists

910
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: in America. We think that if everybody were to seek

911
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 2: help that needed it, we'd need we about five million

912
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: therapists short suverbal problem. We have to figure out what

913
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: to do with mental health in a different way than

914
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: Not Alone Challenge and the other company I started, Inner World,

915
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 2: They're really about solving that.

916
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so special. I mean, I think, to your point,

917
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: figuring out what skills are teachable and really life changing.

918
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, figuring out how to begin to

919
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: manage my anxiety, like it has absolutely changed my life.

920
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,280
Speaker 1: And you know, I count myself as very lucky working

921
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: in an industry like the one that we all work

922
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 1: in so often to have healthcare because I'm a union worker,

923
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: but so many people in our country just don't have that.

924
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: And I think to tackle and knock down these barriers

925
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: to care is like one of the coolest things I

926
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: see people do. And so I just personally and I'm

927
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: sure on behalf of everybody at home listening to you

928
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: talk today, I just want to say things. It's a

929
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: big it's a big, beautiful mission that you made yours

930
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: and I'm really inspired.

931
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Inner world is centered around DBT and CBT skills

932
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 2: in group settings, taught by lay people. So it isn't

933
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 2: a therapist teaching it. You're in a virtual environment with

934
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 2: like thirty other people. It's anonymous, and there's a trained

935
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: guide that we train, but in skills and so just

936
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 2: as you know, because you have a CBT, you know specialist,

937
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 2: you learn these skills. So like if I was to

938
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 2: describe them to you know your audience and be like,

939
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 2: we have a lot of people with social anings ID

940
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 2: or agoraphobie. They don't leave their homes. And so we say,

941
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 2: what's your goal to go grocery shopping? What's your worst

942
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 2: case scenario? What's your worst fear if you go grocery shopping?

943
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,439
Speaker 2: And they write that down and they say it out loud,

944
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: maybe to the whole group it's thirty people, all anonymous.

945
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: Then you say, all right, if that happens, God forbid

946
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: your worst case scenario happens. But what's your plan? You

947
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 2: make a plan? Who will you call? What will you

948
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 2: do step by step plan and you say, all right,

949
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 2: what's the best case scenario? And then they write that

950
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: down and then you say, we don't get to control

951
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 2: the outcome, but if we could influence it, what can

952
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 2: we do to influence the best thing happening? And so

953
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: armed with that type of tool that you can practice

954
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 2: and then have these really behavioral based tools, you know,

955
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 2: we're we just actually able to publish two papers showing

956
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 2: were as effective as traditional therapy. And it's all virtual,

957
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 2: it's all anonymous. It's pretty cool.

958
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: That's so neat. That is so cool. What an amazing

959
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: thing to just wrap your arms around and say we

960
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: can do this. And you know, I know I was

961
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: thinking about that sort of visualization of you like holding

962
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: this whole new project and this twenty five year anniversary project,

963
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: and then I think about your arms holding this you know,

964
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 1: cause based project, and it's like you've managed to wrap

965
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: your care around so many things, you know, for others

966
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: and for yourself, and it.

967
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 2: All stems from you know, my job never changed from

968
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:34,959
Speaker 2: when I was eight? What do I do with pain?

969
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 2: Why is anybody talking about it? And I've just been

970
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 2: loyal to that. I've been loyal to what do I

971
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: do with pain? And songs or how I dealt with pain?

972
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: It was my medicine turned out to be medicine for

973
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 2: other people, which was such an honor. You know, I

974
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: got to have a career based on authenticity, based on

975
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 2: my medicine, Like that's profound for me. It's been such

976
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: a gift. And then to have a second career now

977
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 2: based on the exact same thing. It was the same.

978
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: My music is a side effect of learning what to

979
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 2: do with pain. My skills and my tools are just

980
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 2: a side effect of me saying what do I do

981
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: with pain? How do I want to live? And so

982
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 2: it's really it hasn't been having to like wrap my

983
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 2: arms around something enormous. It's been trying to solve a

984
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 2: problem for myself and realizing and doing so you solve

985
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 2: a problem for someone else.

986
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. So from this perspective, you know, this moment

987
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: where you're able to look at all of these things,

988
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: what feels like moving forward in your life, what feels

989
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: like you're work in progress currently or perhaps on the

990
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: road ahead.

991
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 2: I think scaling up inner world, I think that's where

992
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 2: we can make the biggest impact at the most affordable cost.

993
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's a freemium product. It's free or as

994
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,720
Speaker 2: little as eight dollars a month for a premium product.

995
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 2: So it's you know, keeping really scientifically proven. We're a

996
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 2: clinical research platform that's scalable. Like that's where all my

997
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 2: mental energy is is like how kind of create scalable,

998
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: scientifically proven solutions. Artistically, I'm working on a visual art

999
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: piece that I'm really excited about. I'll do an art

1000
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 2: installation in the spring of next year that'll have an

1001
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: album around it that is really turning me on at

1002
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 2: the moment and puts a huge smile on my face.

1003
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 1: That's so cool. Well, we look forward to it. I

1004
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: know we're all really excited for this re release of Spirit.

1005
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,879
Speaker 1: I know I can only imagine how many people are

1006
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: listening to this going to Google Inner World, and I

1007
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: can't wait to see what comes in the spring of

1008
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 1: twenty four.

1009
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah, really appreciate it. On the re release. I

1010
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: have this guy named Alan that like, ever since the

1011
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 2: mid nineties, I would lose songs and he would be like,

1012
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 2: I would get on the internet and be like, I

1013
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 2: lost a song called Jessica. Does anybody have a bootleg?

1014
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 2: And the same guy always got back to me. So

1015
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 2: I ended up hiring them like in the mid nineties,

1016
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 2: and so he put this album together. It has like

1017
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 2: hundreds depending on which like version of this album you

1018
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 2: get of this reissue, it has like hundreds of like

1019
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 2: crazy bootlegs, demos, outtakes from the studio sessions. It's very

1020
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 2: Alan's world because I forgot I don't even know I

1021
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: had any of this in the vaults. So it's just

1022
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 2: Alan's special brain that put all this together.

1023
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: That is so cool. We love Alan. Yeah, amazing. Well,

1024
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: this has really just been such a joy, and you know,

1025
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: thank you for coming to talk about the whole spectrum

1026
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: of art and humanity today. I'm very grateful.

1027
00:57:42,480 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 2: Thanks, it was really nice talking with you a