1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to snuff he missed in history class from how 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying. I I've Tracy V. Wilson, and today 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: is kind of a fun little treat. Since our listeners 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: are history buffs, I am confident that many of them 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: already know about David McCullough and who he is, and 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to get to interview him recently 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: about his brand new book, The Right Brothers. So just 9 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: in case you don't know, though, he is a two 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: time Pulitzer Prize winner for his books John Adams and Truman. 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: If you watch the amazing HBO mini series on John 12 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: Adams that was based on his book, He's written a 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: great deal about history in addition to those two books, 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: including seventeen seventy six, and his last book was The 15 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: Greater Journey Americans in Paris, which actually gets referenced in 16 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: this upcoming interview. He's also won the Presidential Medal of 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: Freedom as well as numerous other accolades, So in short, 18 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: he totally knows the stuff when it comes to writing 19 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: about history. In his latest work, he examines the lives 20 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: of the men who are often considered to be sort 21 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: of the quintessential American inventors. Uh, there are many inventors 22 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: from America, but these guys often get pointed at is 23 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: like this is Americana, And I was so honored and 24 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: so delighted to get to talk to him about it. 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: So I'm not present for this one. But just everyone knows, 26 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: this interview does not play out, uh in a narrative 27 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: style story. Holly is gonna jump around with some questions. 28 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: There's gonna be lots of discussion. I'm back and forth, 29 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: so basically a conversation, not so much a straight out 30 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: story like we normally tell on the show. Yeah, so 31 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: you won't get the linear right brother story, but you 32 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: will get to hear uh. You know a lot of 33 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: Mr McCullough's interesting insights about his research and work on it. 34 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: So let's just hop into that. So we are here 35 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: with the very impressive David McCullough, and it is such 36 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: an honor and just a delight for me to get 37 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: to speak with you. UM, as a history rebuff myself, 38 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: you're definitely in the royalty box in terms of historians. 39 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for spending time with us. 40 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: I don't think that's particularly generous at all. Um. I 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: have to tell you I had a devil of a 42 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: time putting together a list of questions for you about 43 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: your new Wright Brothers book, because I wrote notes in 44 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: the margins of almost every single page, because you included 45 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: so many gems. On the one hand, I'm like, oh, 46 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: I want to talk about all of these, But on 47 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: the other I also want readers to kind of have 48 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: that wonderful experience of discovering each of these little gems 49 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: for themselves. So I'm gonna try not to be too 50 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: self indulgent with my questions. You'll go right ahead and 51 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: do as you wish. So first, I'm curious how much 52 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: did you know about the Right Brothers before you started 53 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: this project? Very little. I knew about just about what 54 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: most most Americans know, which is not much even educated, 55 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: well read people. I knew that they had a bicycle shop, 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: that they came from Dayton, Ohio, and that they were 57 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: very clever, and they got lucky, and they invented the airplane. 58 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: But all of which except got lucky part is all true. 59 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: But what I didn't realize was what they went through 60 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: in order to achieve it. How brilliant they were, how 61 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: interesting as human beings, and how varied were their interests, 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: and the fact that they had some little formal education, 63 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: but yet that never seemed to slow them down of 64 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: the slightest, not in the least. And I wanted to 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: point out that your book definitely does paint a portrait 66 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: that there is very little luck in the picture, like 67 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: it is all their hard work and toil, hard work, 68 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: and refusal to give up and to learn from your mistakes. 69 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: You get knocked down, A lot of people just lie 70 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: there and wine and look for pity and or blame 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: it on somebody else. They never did any of that. 72 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: They got back up and tried to figure out what 73 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: went wrong and fix it. And the sort of primary 74 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: natural adversities that they had to face in the way 75 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: of the wild winds of Kitty Hawk, that horrific mosquito plagues, 76 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: the realities of the crashes that they survived, that they 77 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: went through all of that and yet still came on 78 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: strong and succeeded. Indeed, they succeeded in steps. As you know, 79 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: most people think that I thought that they flew the 80 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: first time at Kitty Hawk and three and then all 81 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: the world realized that there were airplanes and the immediately airplanes. Well, 82 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way. You have a great weight 83 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: for the rest of the world to catch on the 84 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: reality of what's been achieved. And so many people just 85 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: knew absolutely for certain that man would never fly, and 86 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: they just refused to accept the fact that no man 87 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 1: is flying. And it's as you know, it's for five 88 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: years before the world suddenly said, oh, look what they 89 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: can do. Um. And that will only happened because they 90 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: went over to France. In this country, that we're just 91 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: being ignored and scoffed at a little total indifference in 92 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: terms of the public media, the politicians, everything. It's sort 93 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: of funny, sad in retrospect, but I'm sure that we're 94 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: guilty of it too. There are things that right in 95 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: front of our faces. They're in contrary to what we 96 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: all know to be true, um, but we refused to 97 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: accept it. That's sort of that hindsight problem. Yes. Similarly 98 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: though to how their work kind of happened in stages 99 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: and it was a slow process. I imagine the research 100 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: on this book did not magically happen quickly like you 101 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: did a lot of deep digging. What was that process 102 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: like and at what point did you sort of start 103 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: writing rather than just researching, well what What what happened 104 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: was that my last book is about those ambitious young 105 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: Americans who in medicine and art and architecture and sculpture 106 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: and literature, who in order to improve themselves they're improved 107 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: their abilities, that professionally went to France because there was 108 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: not sufficient or adequate training here. And when I finished 109 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: the book Which and Is, I really wanted to go 110 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: on into the twentieth century. And they began calm around 111 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: to look at who went to France, why, and what 112 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: they turned out to do or be. And I was 113 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: astounded to read about the Right brothers putting on their 114 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: first really big public demonstrations but in France, and I 115 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: began reading about them, and the more I read about them, 116 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: the more I realized, I don't know anything about these 117 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: two men, and yet they accomplished one of the most extreme, 118 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: ordinary achievements in all history. They accomplished what nobody in 119 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: all history had been able to do. And who were 120 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: they and how did they do it? And what was 121 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: their background? What were they like? And all of that 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: soon became abundantly clear, mainly because of a huge collection 123 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: of letters at the Library of Congress, all of which 124 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: has survived intact, not just their letters but the letters 125 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: of their wireless sister Katherine. And they're extremely important. Father. 126 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: They're more than over more than a thousand private family letters, 127 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: and none of them ever was capable of writing a 128 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: short letter or a boring letter. So it was really 129 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: a feast. And you can get inside their lives in 130 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: a way that you don't with people you know in 131 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: real life, because you can't read other people's veil. Nobody 132 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: writes letters anymore. That's true. Uh, And I'm glad you 133 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: brought up Catherine and the brother's father, Bishop Milton, right, 134 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 1: because it seems to me reading this book that really, 135 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: while it is about innovation and this amazing achievement and 136 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: sort of this kickoff into really the modern agem anyways, 137 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: at the heart of it, this book really feels like 138 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: a story about a family, and sort of it's a 139 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: family story. Absolutely. I often thought it was like a 140 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: play with four characters. No, I'd say five restricts. There 141 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: are a few supporting characters of great value and importance, 142 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: like Charlie Taylor and and Amos wrote the b man 143 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: who comes down to see the spectacle over the first 144 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: time and writes the first article ever published about it. 145 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: It's accurate. So I think that if I could say, 146 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: was pas and with pride to be sure of what 147 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: I feel. I've contributed with this book because there are 148 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: other books about the Right brothers, and some very good ones, 149 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: but the part of the role like like Katherine has 150 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: been largely ignored and with the very few exceptions, and 151 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: she was she was just a character. And it's it's 152 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: so refreshingly feisty and opinionated and energetic and smart and 153 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: and funny. They're all funny. The father isn't particularly funny, 154 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: but the brothers are very very good humor clever, and 155 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: then the and the father. The fact the father kept 156 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: that diary year after year is and that's where I 157 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: found the part about who the person was that hit 158 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: Wilbur in the teeth with a stick, which which changed 159 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: his whole life, and to have it turned out to 160 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: be a young man who turned who became the most 161 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: one of the most notorious murderers in the whole history 162 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: of Ohio, which shocking, stunning in the extreme. And and 163 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: he was a neighborhood kid, neighborhood bully. And I think 164 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: that's important because it emphasizes, certainly emphasized me as much 165 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: as one would be tempted to see the environment community, 166 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: the neighborhood that the Right Brothers grew up in, as 167 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: it kind of idolized Norman Rockwell Saturday Evening Post kind 168 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: of cover the fact they were there was the evil there, 169 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: there was, there was tragedy. This boy, so poor as 170 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: teeth were rotting in the druggist in the drug store 171 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: where he worked as a clerk, felt so badly for 172 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: him he started giving him the only real painkiller that 173 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: was available, and which was cocaine. And the boy became 174 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: a dog at no time, and then eventually an alcoholic 175 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: and that really turned bad and dangerous. So it isn't 176 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: just that the genius, the American the fulfillment of the 177 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: American dream takes place in this neighborhood of take Ohio, 178 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: but real tragedy and an evil well, and I love 179 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: that that sort of story, which when I got to 180 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: in the book, I was on a flight with a 181 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: colleague of mine and I was literally turning to them 182 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: and going, oh my gosh, I never knew this, but 183 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: it kind of I do that's the way. That's the 184 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: way I was all the way through. Oh my gosh, 185 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: I never knew this. I think. I think one of 186 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: the most incredibly, most exceptional and to their credit turnarounds 187 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: that they make in the whole story is when they 188 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 1: find out, discover there on their own, that all the 189 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: technical data, the statistics, the formulas that all the wise 190 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: businists and professors and the like a cocked it over 191 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: the years for the realities of aviation and wing designs. 192 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: So we're all long the horble said, worthless. So they 193 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: had to start all over again on their own, just 194 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: as they had to build their own gas engine because 195 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: nobody that was making one. It was powerful enough and 196 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: yet light weight enough to serve their purpose. They never 197 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: made it desolee engine, ever, and nothing was too daunting 198 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: for them to take on. And they had no political connections, 199 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: they had no they had no money in the bank, 200 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: they had no university or foundations supporting their experiments. They're 201 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: doing it on their own with the very slim profits 202 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: they made with their bicycle job. And thank goodness for 203 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: Charlie Taylor, because they may not have gotten there without him. 204 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: Oh no, we no, you know, without without Catherine this bright, 205 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: Charlie Taylor, and I and I give that fellow John T. 206 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: Daniel down it's a kitty hawk enormous credit he he 207 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: really was there when needed and and had the courage 208 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: to to see that these weren't just a couple of bagpots. 209 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: I think there are actually a lot of people that 210 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: come up in the book that don't normally get much 211 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: attention in the telling of the Right Brothers story, including 212 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: Charlie Taylor, who ran their bike shop when they were 213 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: gone and kept it going so that they would have 214 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: a little bit of money to actually fund this. And 215 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: Amos Root, who you mentioned, he's the one that built 216 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: the motor. Yeah, he's the one that built aluminum motor. 217 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: That nobody ever made an aluminum motor in all history. 218 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder, And I'm going to ask 219 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: you to speculate a little bit. Why do you think 220 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: these really pretty important characters in the story get glossed 221 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: over so much of the time. Well, unfortunately, too many 222 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: who step up to tell stories, uh, spend too little 223 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: time looking at the secondary characters. Um. I find them 224 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: not only variably invariably interesting and in every subject I've 225 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: taken on, but also very valuable in what they observed 226 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: of the principal characters, what they saw in them, or 227 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: what they contributed to the success of the principal character. Um. 228 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: None of us are alone in life, and those such 229 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: things are self made man or self paperman is an 230 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: absolute myth that especialist got rid of. We're all the 231 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: result of people who influenced this shape, this, parents, teachers, friends, rivals, um. 232 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: And of course there's always that element of luck. What 233 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: if they had one of them that they had bad luck, 234 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: got killed And of course they could have gotten killed 235 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: every single time they went up, and they knew it, 236 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: and yet they didn't didn't hold him back. They never 237 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: they never went up together because they realized that one 238 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: of them might get killed and then there had to 239 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: be another one still left alive to carry on with 240 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: the dream, which again I would imagine at that point 241 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: they would really have to rally their secondary support team. 242 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: Thank goodness it never happened. But yes, it's interesting to 243 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: me that when Wilbur died prematurely felt tragically in nineteen twelve, 244 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: or Will really did not do too much for the 245 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: rest of his life. He was busy, but the two 246 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: heads were better than one. Orwell was very clever, no 247 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: question about great mechanical ingenuity. But Wilbur was a genius. 248 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any question about And he was 249 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: the leader. He was the big brother, just as it 250 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: had been from childhood. He as the boss. And there's 251 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: an enormous amount to learn about leadership from those two men. 252 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: I gave a talk at the touch there's a school 253 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: up at Dartmouth College, and I stress the importance of 254 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: their command of language. They knew how to express themselves 255 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: on paper and in Wilbur's case, on his feet speaking um. 256 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: It's essential, and particularly today, was so little of these 257 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: few of these young people in our country no how 258 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: to write, no how to write a presentable letter, know 259 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: how to write a convincing reporter or analysis. Leaders have 260 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: to be readers, and they have to know how to 261 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: express themselves, and not just in politics or the law, 262 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: in every line of work. It's interesting that you mentioned 263 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: that too, being kind of no greater as a payer, 264 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: because to me, the way you lay out the book 265 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: and the way you describe it to their characters, in 266 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: some ways they almost seem so much like two parts 267 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: of one hole, like they are clearly both very industrious 268 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: and smart, but they're they're different personalities complemented each other entirely. Um. 269 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: And of course Catherine and Horrible were very close from 270 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: childhood on and and more confiding to each other on 271 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: a on a personal or emotional level. And she's the 272 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: bosson of the whole household. Uh, it's one of the 273 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: reasons I love her. And how about when Horribles did 274 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: almost killed in the crash Fort Myers and she's resigns 275 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: her job or takes it an extended leave of absence. Facts, 276 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: her bag is on the train to Washington in a 277 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: matter of a couple of hours, and then spends the 278 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: next month in half or whatever it was, at his bedside, 279 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: at his back and call, doing everything she can until 280 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: she gets him back on his feet more or less. 281 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: That wasn't just that she was helping with his physical struggle, 282 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: but his emotional state of mind, which was very serious. 283 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: I think I think she saved his life, he said. 284 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: It certainly seems that way. I mean, I can't imagine 285 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: that he would have made it through without her. And 286 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: it brings up another question I wanted to ask you, 287 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: because they when Wilbur first goes to Paris ahead of Orville. 288 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: It seems like the family really had a hard time 289 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: dealing with this separation in this distance, and orly Catherine 290 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: Orville and Catherine really seemed to be almost near breaking 291 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: down in some ways. Both of them just seems so hairy. 292 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: I think they I think they were breaking down. Do 293 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: you think that was just the stress of sort of 294 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: the business situation that was going on with them getting backing, 295 00:18:58,160 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: or how much of it was just that this was 296 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: really the first time that Wilbur, who was such a 297 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: leader to them, was away from them, and they were 298 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: just having this separation without sort of their steady rock. 299 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: You took your bike, book, you take out the keystone 300 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: on the arch begins to crumble, and he he was, 301 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: he was in and those marvelous letters he rights back 302 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: to the shape poppy stamps. Everything's all right, don't worry 303 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: so much, um and he's right on every account. The 304 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: other thing I really love was when he when he 305 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: gets angry at Octave Schnook towards the end of the book, 306 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: and but he writes the letters expressing their point the 307 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: brother the point of view of the brothers to Chant 308 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: and criticizing Chant, but never being disrespectful, never being nasty 309 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: or or vindictive in anyway. This space sounds very strange. 310 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: I read god knows how much about them written by 311 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: other people, newspaper reporters, uh, fellow experimenters, aviators. I never 312 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: found one derogatory line or paragraph or page. Nobody, it seems, 313 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: ever said anything sharply faintfully critical about Yes, they did 314 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: say they thought they were a little cuckoo, but that 315 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: was that was before they realized that what they had 316 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: done as come to pass, they succeeded. I think another really, 317 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: I think what this book is their story also reminds 318 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: us of are the old the old fashioned manners and values. 319 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: You maintain modesty no matter how big a deal you become. 320 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: You you remember where you came from, and you and 321 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: you don't look down on other people because they haven't 322 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: done as well as you have, or they don't know 323 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: as much as you have, or they are as well 324 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: off as you have. You become none of that, and 325 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: you're honest, and you're and oh god, do you work hard. 326 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I've learned in 327 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: my years of writing about our American forebears is that 328 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: we really have far too little appreciation of how hard 329 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: they all works. Oh goodness, yes, and including those that 330 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: never was succeeded, including those who failed, including those who 331 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: as tragic, heartbreaking endings to the rest. But oh they 332 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: had to work hard, and hard work was seen as 333 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: part of being a decent human being, part of being 334 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: as sit as it or you pull your share of 335 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: the weight. And I feel that these are lessons we 336 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: need to keep, keep it in mind, keep passing on 337 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: to each generation. It's history. It's history, that's what. Um. 338 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought up sort of that there 339 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: was nothing really negative or cutting ever said about them 340 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: and how decent they were, because I kept as I 341 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: was reading, I just was struck over and over again 342 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: by how even though there was a lot of competition 343 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: to get to manned flight, they never spoke ill of 344 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: their competitors. Even when Samuel Langley really was getting kind 345 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: of roasted in the press, Wilbur actually spoke out against 346 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: the way he was being treated. And they just seemed 347 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,959 Speaker 1: like such incredibly decent gentlemen that it just really struck 348 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: me as they were sort of such a good a 349 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: good kind of um inspiration is just a model of 350 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: great character. Or well. I love too of the fact 351 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: that the French toward Wilburt. Yet Wilbur made no attempt 352 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 1: to learn their language. He made he was he was 353 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: just being exactly who he was the whole time, because 354 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: he seems so American, so truly uh pure on its 355 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: older American. They loved him for it, and it was 356 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: his his attitude, his spirit, his sense of purpose, and 357 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: he became, as I mentioned, in the world he became 358 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: the most popular American in France ever since Benjamin Franklin. 359 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: And and he didn't just but that he was there 360 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: over a year, so they had plenty of time to 361 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: look him over. Um. I feel that once in a while, 362 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: you run into somebody on a plane or ye meeting 363 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: of Hello professionals or whatever, on vacation, you run into 364 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: somebody you really like, and you wonder, God, isn't great 365 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: I've run into this person and and why didn't I 366 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: know him sooner? For her? And that's the way I 367 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: feel about the Right brothers. Um. I wish I had 368 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: known them all along, because I think that they set 369 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: such a superb example that can be of of encouragement 370 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: and simulation. Two problem us each of us and I 371 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: love that you include the details about when they were 372 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: all in France together, and how the one of them 373 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: who really seemed to like get it and enjoy the 374 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: whole thing was Catherine, Like she didn't mind the breast 375 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: following them. She learned to sea getting what she deserved. Finally, final, 376 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: after all the loyalty and faith in them and sticking 377 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: by them and sacrificing her own freedom in life for 378 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: their for their benefit, finally she's not only getting a 379 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: holiday to dream of, but she's getting recognition, wide and 380 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: vocal and visible recognition. She could have stayed there another 381 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: couple of months, so she didn't like Italy much too dirty, 382 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: I have to say too, I think that I find 383 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: many similarities um not not coincidental between the Right Brothers 384 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: and Harry Truman. They compassed it. They come from the 385 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: same part of our country. They didn't have the advantage 386 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: of higher education. They experienced make serious setbacks more than once, 387 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: but they kept kept going, kept trying, and then they 388 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: were changed. They were but let their importance or their 389 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: success go to their heads. And I love the fact 390 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: that the Right Brothers went right back to day, didn't 391 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: buy a bigger part to Yorker and just as Trumman 392 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: went back to independence very soon and pride and pride 393 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: to him the fact that they've been raised by parents 394 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: who gave them good manners and the rest. And that's 395 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: whole little business. When they're in Europe with all the 396 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: aristocracy and people wondering, how is it that you act 397 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: so naturally, they don't, in fact, say we think we're 398 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: just as good as they are. I think that's quintessential American. 399 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: It wasn't just it wasn't it wasn't ego. It was 400 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: just they felt they had a right to be pleased 401 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: with how they were brought up and without what their 402 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: values were and what they're says, the responsibility and purpose 403 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: was well. On the flip side of that is that 404 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: also like when they were in the Outer Banks and 405 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: they were dealing with William Tate who was the former postmaster, 406 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 1: who was a very uh simple means, they didn't treat him. 407 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: They treated him as they're equal. Just they felt they 408 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: were the equals in Europe, like they pretty much had 409 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: an even playing field for everyone they encountered. Yes, they 410 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: can get along with everybody, and they know who they are. 411 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: That's what and Truman knew that he knew who he was. 412 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: Truman was going to appoint Uh George Marshall, General George Marshall, 413 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: be Secretary of State, and in advance of the announcement, 414 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: one of his political advisers that you might want to 415 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: think twice of at that, Mr President, and Drewman said, 416 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: why why is that? He said, Well, if General Marshall 417 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: becomes Secretary State in three or four months, people will 418 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: start saying that he'd make a better president than you are. 419 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: And Truman said, he wouldn't make a better president than 420 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: I am, but I'm but I'm the president and I 421 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: want the best possible people all around me in jobs 422 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: of importance. He knew exactly who he was, and that's 423 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: that's true of the Right brothers. They know who they are, 424 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: and they know that what they can do and what 425 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: they can produce, how much they can contribute to stand 426 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: very similar well. And I have to say, I wonder 427 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: how much of that comes from just their support from 428 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: their parents from an early age to just try things 429 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: and do things. And I one of my very favorite 430 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: details in the book is when you write about Orville's 431 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: first business, which is very early on in the book. 432 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: The printing the printing shop that he started as a 433 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: teenage r and I actually, when I read this one 434 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: part I turned. I was still on the plane to 435 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: my colleague and I was like, will you read this 436 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: and tell me I'm not having a cerebral event. And 437 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: then I'm reading the words I'm reading because he made 438 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: his first printing press with a discarded tombstone, a buggy 439 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: spring and scrap metal. I love right, tell me too. Um, 440 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: is there a similar little detailer anecdote about their lives 441 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: that just resonates with you, even if it's maybe not 442 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: one of the more important or momentous events. To me, 443 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: one of my favorite scenes is when they're uh there 444 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 1: can't at Kitty Hawk and Orble has a little too 445 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: much coffee and he can't sleep at night, and he 446 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: comes up with the idea of connecting the warping uh 447 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: paparas to get to the Rudder writes you a hinged 448 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: rear rudder right yes, and he at breakfast the next 449 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: day he presents the ideat knowing that Wilbur will shoot 450 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: it down right away, because that's Wilbur's technique, makes formal 451 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: fight to prove his idea is good and orrible winks 452 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: over at Lauren the other brother. I watched this how 453 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: he's going and and wilbur thinks about it from it 454 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: says nothing, and he says, that's a great idea. Let's 455 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: go do it. And they went out and changed we 456 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 1: wonder how see? Oh? And I love it when they 457 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: get into the arguments they wind up taking the opposite side. 458 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: They both wind up taking what the other one the 459 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: original point was. I'm trying to remember who it was 460 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: one of the secondary characters that related that the two 461 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: had had a fight, And then they each individually came 462 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: to him later and said, you know what, my brother 463 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: was right, Yeah, that was Charlie Taylor. I couldn't remember 464 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: it or not. I love the character Amos Ruth be many. 465 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: He writes the article which is entirely accurate, entirely true. 466 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: I resit the Scientific American, and they just ignore it 467 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: and ignore him, don't even thank him for it. Yeah, 468 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: he got no recognition for the work that he did. 469 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: Like as a journalist, he was way above everybody else 470 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: covering the story. But don't you love it when the 471 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: establishment keeps his nose in the air and somebody at 472 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: the lower level comes in and he takes the ball 473 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: and runs with it. But we wouldn't have known if 474 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: it weren't for someone like you to tell us about it. 475 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: So thank you for that. Well, thank you, Um. You 476 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: have mentioned I read I think in an interview that 477 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: you thought that Charlie Taylor would be great fun to 478 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: spend time with. Are there any other favorites for you 479 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: among the supporting sort of cast of characters in the 480 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: Right Brothers story that you would also like to spend 481 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: time with. Oh yes, John Daniel Daniel's at City and 482 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: Bill Tay and well, as we said, Amos Groupe. Absolutely, 483 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: I'd like to know them all, Um, And I'd like 484 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: to know some of the people have mocked him. I'd 485 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: like very much to know or at least you have 486 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: some experience talking to Langley. Oh yes, I would. And 487 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: and William Howard Taft I must say he comes through 488 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,719 Speaker 1: at the end. He really does. And I think it's 489 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: just I think it's perfectly perfectly appropriate that either can 490 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: Ohio man Um, It's kind of think you put it 491 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: in the novel. He say no, no, no, Catherine. Have 492 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: the president come from some other state yet? Do you 493 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: ever or have you ever speculated on what might have 494 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: been achieved if Wilbur had not died at the relatively 495 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: young age and rather suddenly. No, I haven't much, but 496 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: I tend to think maybe not a great deal would 497 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: have happened, because when they go up together in the 498 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: plane at Pray Area in May, I think that's their 499 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: way of telling all their friends and neighbors who they 500 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: invited to come there, that they've done what they set 501 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: out to do and they need do no more. Obviously, 502 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: Wilbur hated business, hated legals, fights in court, and at 503 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: the time and in the family thought that that's what 504 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: so wore him down, that caught type white fever. Um. 505 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: I think that the terrible destruction that this invention brought 506 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: to the world would have broken his heart, as I'm 507 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: sure it did horrible. One of the things that I 508 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: try to remind people, how is that when you think 509 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: how the world has changed since nineteen Let's say we 510 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: need lies the first practical airplane at Lamont, and yet 511 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: I could have known horrible right. Um, it's not very 512 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: long ago. He died in night. I would have been 513 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: about fifteen, and I could have known him for three 514 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: or four years of that nice OTTLD guy around the corner. 515 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: It's just a fraction of time as history goes, that 516 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: this has all come about. I was looking at something 517 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: the other day and I saw that in last year, 518 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: just at O'harefield in Chicago, seventy million people went in 519 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: and out of that airport, flew in and out of 520 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: that million. And we're talking about two people came along 521 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: with the idea not very long ago. None of us, 522 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: either of them, nobody at the time, could have seen 523 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: what they were letting out of the bag. Yeah. I 524 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: kept finding myself thinking, man, this was happening a lot 525 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: of these really big events, like as things had really 526 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: gained ground and they were really considered successful. We're really 527 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: just a few decades before World War Two when air 528 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: airplanes were a huge part of the strategy. So it's 529 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: that's a big, big Pandora's box that got opened, sure is. 530 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: And of course see rockets and breaking the sound barrier. Yeah, 531 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: all happened before he died. Um. So, since you have 532 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: written about and studied the rights as well as many 533 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: other innovators in history, and I suspect I might know 534 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: the answer to this question. But do you think there's 535 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: one element or trait or skill that is just vital 536 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: to being an inventor that modern creators and inventors need 537 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: to take note of. Well there there isn't one, but 538 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: one of the crucia is a big idea. They had 539 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: a big idea um and and very powerful sense of purpose, 540 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,439 Speaker 1: and they weren't defeated by side backs. They kept going. 541 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: They didn't ever lapse into self pity or blaming other people. 542 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: And they loved their work. It wasn't just that they 543 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: were doing in order to succeed or to be big deals. 544 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: They loved it. What do my phone you last? Earlier? 545 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 1: One of my favorite scenes are absolutely when I Had Doors, 546 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: when they were putting on the two Days celebrations in 547 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: their honor and Dayton, and every time they could slip 548 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: away get back to their to the bike shop and 549 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: get back to their work, they did it. And and 550 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: the New York Times reporter that followed them and kept 551 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: a careful log I say, snuck away to keep get 552 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: back to work. I just thought that was emblematic a 553 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: scene as one kind dream of yeah uh oh, and 554 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: the other scene too that is just so you think, 555 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: oh Hollywood might have invented when they when Wilbur flies 556 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: up the Hudson River. M Oh my god, what a scene. 557 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: And the idea that he's getting those huge drafts of 558 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: winds off of the skyscrapers. So you have these two 559 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: elements reaching for this guy. This the buildings on the 560 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: island of Manhattan, and this little fragile plane with a 561 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: canoe strapped underneath in case he went down on the water. 562 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: So he's flying that the latest, most ingenious, most unexpected 563 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: form of transportation ever, but in order to have a 564 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: little security in his heart mind, he straps one of 565 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: the oldest beings of transportation on the underside of the thing. 566 00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: I just think it's hilarious and so practical. Well it's 567 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 1: also a little poetic, you know. It's the brand new 568 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: and the old attested coming together. So Tracy, that was 569 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: my time with David McCullough. That's so awesome. It was. 570 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: I like, how you can just so clearly hear his 571 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: great admiration for this entire family and for Wilbury in particular. Uh, 572 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: I mean, he clearly has so much love for these 573 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: people after he spent years and years reading their letters 574 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: and putting together this bigger picture of it. I really 575 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: did completely enjoy this book. I loved it so much, 576 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: and if you would like to delve into this very 577 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,479 Speaker 1: thorough telling of the Right Brothers story, Mr McCullough's book 578 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: is out now. You can find it in any bookstore 579 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: or online, and that is it is simply titled The 580 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: Right Brothers and it is written, of course, by David McCullough. 581 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: I think if you are into history at all, even 582 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: if you may not think you're into the Right Brothers, 583 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: you will probably find it a pretty fascinating read. And 584 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: I actually also have some listener mail I want to 585 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: hear it too. All right, I'm gonna share it. This 586 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: is from our listener Lauren, and she says, Dear Tracy 587 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: and Holly, greetings from Canada. I've been a long time 588 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: listener to the podcast and I've been looking for a 589 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: good excuse to write you an email for several years now, 590 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: and your relatively recent episode on Carousels, you requested that 591 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: listeners right in regarding historically significant jobs, and I had 592 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: the excuse I needed. The first history related job I 593 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: held was as a game and ride attendant at in 594 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties themed carnival in one of the four time 595 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: periods portrayed at Fort Edmonton Park, which is a living 596 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: history museum in Alberta, Canada. One of our jobs was 597 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: to operate the hand carved reproduction nineteen twenties carousel for visitors. 598 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: I also gave tours of it on the history of 599 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: carousels and of the symbolism of individual horses. Of this 600 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: particular example, I am not joking when I say that 601 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: I could talk for at least forty five minutes about 602 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: carousel history. But your podcast uncovered some awesome fun facts 603 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: that I was unaware of. Here is my favorite fun 604 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: fact about hand carved carousels. The horses were generally uh 605 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: not identical on both sides. I was told by our 606 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: volunteer wood carvers that the people who made carousel horses 607 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: would not make as much of an effort to carve 608 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: and decorate the side of the horse that faced the 609 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: inside of the carousel. The outside, of course, was meant 610 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: to attract customers to ride the machine, so they were 611 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: beautifully carved, painted, and decorated. People didn't see the other 612 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: side of the horse until they had already paid their 613 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: money and we're sitting on it, so they were usually 614 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: much plainer on the chariots that manifested as a single 615 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: piece of wood that was about one inch thick and 616 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: simply painted, in contrast with the outside side, which was 617 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: heavily carved out of wood at least as thick as 618 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: the width of my palm. The carvers I knew called 619 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: these sides the quote Romance side, the one that attracted 620 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: visitors onto the horse, and the quote money side, the 621 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: one that saved the carousel commissioner money. Now I work 622 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: as an interpreter at Elk Island National Park, which is 623 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: home to the recovery herds for the plane's bison and 624 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: wood bison in North America. Surprisingly enough, I use my 625 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: history degrees on a daily basis. Here. I listen to 626 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: your podcast most frequently when driving to and from the 627 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: park and town, or as I drive through the park 628 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: to work, often while stuck in traffic jams of bison 629 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: or bison jams. If you will, I would love to 630 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: hear more episodes on the history of conservation or national 631 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,720 Speaker 1: parks like bamforre Yellowstone. I really love this email because 632 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: I had not uncovered that little tidbit about carousels, But 633 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: now that I think about it, there have been some 634 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,959 Speaker 1: I've written on when the interior side of the horse 635 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: was not as fancy pants as the exterior, and it 636 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: makes perfect sense from a an economic standpoint, but I 637 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: had never put much thought into it. So romance side 638 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: and money side now we all know a little bit more. 639 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us with some 640 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: cool information, you can do that at History Podcast at 641 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: house to works dot com. You can find us on 642 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: Facebook at Facebook dot com, slash missed in History, on Twitter, 643 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: at missed in History at pinterest dot com, slash missed 644 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 1: in History, and at missed in History dot spreadshirt dot com. 645 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 1: If you would like to check out any shirts or 646 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: bags or phone cases, et cetera. If you would like 647 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: to visit our parents site that's how stuff Works dot com. 648 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: You can also come to our site, which is missed 649 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: in History dot com. Check out show notes for every 650 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: episode since Tracy and I have been on the podcast, 651 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: as well as an archive of all of our episodes 652 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 1: in the occasional blog post. And we hope you visit 653 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: us at how stuff works dot com and missed in 654 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: History dot com for more on this and thousands of 655 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:46,720 Speaker 1: other topics. Because it how stuff works dot com