1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,199 Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language. 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: I've watched. I've watched almost a thousand of those type 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: of press conferences over the years here in Orange County 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: and twenty three years of covering that courthouse and press 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: conferences like that. I've never seen that before. Welcome to Sleuth. 6 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: I'm Linda Sawyer. On this episode, we are fortunate enough 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: to have three guests on the program. Our first is 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Scott Sanders, who's one of our recurring guests. Scott is 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: an attorney with the Orange County Public Defender's Office. For 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: nearly twenty six years, Scott was the public Defender and 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: the people versus Scott to Cry and in eleven, Scott 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: Decry killed eight people at a beauty salon located in 13 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: Seal Beach, California, making him the number one mass shooter 14 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: in all of Orange County history. In Mr Sanders discovered 15 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: an improper use of jailhouse informants in the Decry case 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: that he represented. He would later file a seven hundred 17 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: and fifty four page motion in the Wozniak case, which 18 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: is another case he represented, laying out a thirty plus 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: year history of informant misconduct. Revelations of deception and concealment 20 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: in the Scott Decry case led to the recusal of 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: the Orange County Day's office and later the dismissal of 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: the death penalty. Our second guest is Paul Wilson. Together 23 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: with his wife, Christie, they raised their family in southern 24 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: California for the last twenty six years. Christie went to 25 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: work one day at the Salon Meritage and on October twelve, 26 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: she and seven others were killed by Scott Decry. Paul 27 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: became a vocal advocate it for the death penalty, but 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: increasingly shifted his focus to the conduct of the District 29 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: Attorney and the Sheriff's Department. In sen Paul Wilson spoke 30 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: out about the actions of both agencies. Paul has raised 31 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: questions about the legitimacy of the Attorney General's investigation, which 32 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: was announced in March of with no public actions. Since 33 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: Paul Wilson is a victim of not only violent crime, 34 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: but also a victim of the o C justice system, 35 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: he has a relentless advocate for victims and the pursuit 36 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: to uncover the corruption that he believes exists in the 37 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: Orange County Day's Office and the Orange County Sheriff's Department. 38 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: And lastly we have Scott Moxley from the Scott Moxley 39 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: Confidential of the O C Weekly. Scott Moxley is an 40 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: investigative journalist known for his relentless writing about law enforcement 41 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: and government affairs. Two New York Times magazine writers cited 42 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: him for his herculean job exposing Southern California law enforcement corruption. 43 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: Mr Moxley one Journalist of the Year honors at the 44 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: Los Angeles Press Club for his writing focused on the 45 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 1: Orange County Jailhouse informant scandal. He has won numerous other awards, 46 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: including the Distinguished Journalist of the Year by the l 47 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: A Society of Professional Journalists. We welcome all of them 48 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: to Sleuth. Thank you all for being here today on Sleuth. 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: We really appreciate your time. So all of you might 50 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: not have known this. I know Scott Moxley is aware, 51 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: because he did write an article about it. But Rachel 52 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: Buffett's sentencing just took place, and there was a press 53 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: conference after, and of course all the victims families were there, 54 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: as was the prosecutor, and so what should have been 55 00:03:54,440 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: just an easy, pleasant closure turned out to be a 56 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: roast of of me and of the podcast. So I 57 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: wanted to take a look at the press conference and 58 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: as well the confrontation that happened subsequent to the press 59 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: conference with Steve hair Uh, sam Harre's father, one of 60 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: the victims fathers. So let's roll the tape and take 61 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: a look at it. Editor's note. Sleuth was unaware at 62 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: the time of the press conference that the press event 63 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: footage would no longer be included in the pool coverage 64 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: of the day's events at Rachel's trial. We therefore were 65 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: not welcome to the footage from datelines Soule camera crew, 66 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: even though they shared the same press footage with their 67 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: colleagues from four to eight Hours who also participated in 68 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: the press conference. When asked for a copy of the presser, 69 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: the answer we received from a Dateline representative was a 70 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: previous financial arrangement for that five minute press conference that 71 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: we at Sleuth were not made away are at the time, 72 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: nor were we given the same opportunity to participate, which 73 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: for the record, we would have gladly paid our fair 74 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: share for access to the footage. So please keep in 75 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: mind this event is coming to you from a camera 76 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: Mike that one of our engineers happened to be recording 77 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: as a backup camera for our coverage. Sleuth questions, is 78 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: it because of the content of the press conference that 79 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: we were denied access to the footage? The audio begins 80 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: with Steve Hair expressing his frustration that Rachel Buffett did 81 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: not receive the full forty four month maximum sentence. Then 82 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: his wife's twin speaks out as well, followed by Julie's mom, 83 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: June Kibuishi, and finally Matt Murphy takes us through the 84 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: case and the sentencing decision by Judge Hanson. But for 85 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: some odd reason, Mr Murphy decides to direct a line 86 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: of questioning towards me. Why don't you go to when 87 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: it takes out? Well, I X emotions personal, you can't 88 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: ski or anybody else. I wish you'd worked out with 89 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: forty four boats in christ and anything lower than that. 90 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: I'm the limed just scre in that quite a where 91 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: Pali from wrong, So get away she being in a 92 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: way spleen with emotions. Those ways you're basically saying you 93 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: knows a lot and you go n lear year at 94 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: each if you listens. But I'm just very frustrated, certainly 95 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: closing pace and everything, and that I gathered from the 96 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: judge her hand the time as far as follow the guy, 97 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: so very frustrating. Wait Rachel's um statement, you guys have 98 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: anything June or you're to um m. Well, and it's 99 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: just now that she said that, but it's then he 100 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: stay on that she said, I had to me be 101 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: honestly when you kin go like be thine to be 102 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: able to That's why I thought, you guys, you know, 103 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: I don't take that as any here how she acted 104 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: and you a wit or never spa. I just I 105 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: just don't take any you know from hers that she said. 106 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: It's hard that so you don't accept her apology or 107 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: feel it wasn't apology. I don't think it was an apology, 108 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: just like another another a fine ASPI are you a 109 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: where she's still never admitted lying. She never admitted lying 110 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: in her apoge. Yeah, she's the wis of course, especially 111 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: where she tried to tune of sad Day give the money, 112 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: say five days or older. She was there when Day 113 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: day and Chris she still was longer and she still 114 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: never Q. Is there some sense of satisfaction though that 115 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the judge obviously paid attention and court and you know 116 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: she made her own statement. Is there is there any 117 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: satisfaction with today? I think you guys atually appreciates and 118 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: I don't feel it like she goes helpamly and thoughts 119 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: there helping fel Yeah, that this says that you didn't 120 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: feel as That's that's why I don't fuss her, is 121 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: that you see her it's not amotion at all like that. 122 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: She's the statement that okay, policy you should ever okay, 123 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but you feel from lock yourself from we 124 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: never see that entirest she's six years eight years no, 125 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, Judge, I didn't feel that. Elma, she understood. 126 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: H I've gotten through the world years past. I appreciate 127 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: Judge her chamber for there is there a closure for 128 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: you guys. There's no cloture. I mean, nobody's in their 129 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: shows and nobody can put them says in their shows 130 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: on her twin sister, why I spokeingly different than hers 131 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: and I've been able somehow to put things aside, but 132 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: never to forget they are not able speaking hole Actually, 133 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: because I see all the postings, they cannot move on. 134 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: And then there's no gloves like a well move on, 135 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: you all say, yeah, true, I really as three hundred twins. 136 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: One of course she understood, So I have a new 137 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: stood up. The courts are undo at the end. Really 138 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: he'll keep going and I know my brother or not, 139 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: and he what he would like to see his justice 140 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: with every single one at eighty to do with this, 141 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just the two lay or more. Unfortunately, 142 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: we are lost and we have to follow the goals 143 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: and we can't go by feels, which he always had 144 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: feelings about great about him and the best best thing 145 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: that we can come to terms with that those feels 146 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: translated in reality at least for her, not for the rest. However, 147 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: because it is another case, it's not to say that 148 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: if tomorrow or evidence comes for something greats that us 149 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: else count the fruition. That's the way I do that. 150 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: It is a verdict why you will attacted or our core. Yes, 151 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: we had a rarey that wore very hard. As as 152 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: the fail is imported out the positives. Uh, this is 153 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: always belitus prosecutions of the investigation and everything that we knew. Um, 154 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: this is something that we're we're going out looking forward 155 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: for the Ford did a great job, were did a 156 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: great job, and they taste while to get there. This 157 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: is for example, I think the uh, you know, the 158 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: system of work. Can you break it down for us 159 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: or the pounds and what you know? It's a little incasing, right, 160 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: So essentially U certain things that the court did today. 161 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: She had the option of branding forcation and she did 162 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: not do that. She also had the option of boring. 163 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: The two counts could grow up another, so she would 164 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: sure for the time at the same time with two 165 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: counts and the quarter sercises of discretion and site nozing events. 166 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: So she has as certain senses esecutively ter hers absolutely 167 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: right in the GOO system as well as the vast 168 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: before the stays that sess time um is linked to 169 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: the s private's help. So most says says, your after 170 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: time to her gives you a much wider sense in 171 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: range in California, accessor after crime or accessor after the 172 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: fat constitutes it's very holy prime and it has a 173 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: sixty two three month since this in So there's only 174 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: so much spore can do, which there's so much thing 175 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: we can do um as far as the time goes. 176 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: But um, you know, she's she's a convicted Feller and 177 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: she's going to give out in interestingly, you know when 178 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: you talk about justice in a case like this, for 179 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: the rest of her life. She she's playing a goat 180 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: her professional career. She's giving her masters in psychology right now, 181 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: and anybody that goes to Google it's ever gonna give 182 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: you just don't know that she's involved in this. She 183 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: think they're gonna know what her roles. They're gonna know 184 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: that she lied to the police. And from the part 185 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: of investigation she's delayed, you know, the the investigation she 186 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: heard these fable members and that's something that I thinks 187 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: can follow the most left. So part of this is 188 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 1: legal or it is uh social and I think the 189 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: lark or would immediately to the season that you got. 190 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, So basically the maximus she can get is 191 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: four we four months. She had thirty two months and 192 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: you know, to me, the tick chargers jns UH and 193 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: snoymis looking the court and you better you know obviously 194 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: the failing you know, you want the MAXI for themerta 195 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: and you get it out. But good report did is 196 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: by why taking the under many days off the end 197 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: of that she most as serious of the mandatory supervision presascially, 198 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: even though it's done by the clation of parting. Now 199 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: by the new laws in California, gets essentially be a 200 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: role um. So she screws up, she can be violated 201 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: and sent back to prison. Whatever you max somebody else, 202 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: especially for the uh, you know, a relatively small amount 203 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: of time when you get it at PC thirty two 204 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: or it says you have back and out of it 205 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: to get it once you finished it. One the way 206 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: that judge did this, she's not done when she gets out. 207 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: She's gonna be when her mandatory supervision, she's gonna or 208 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: there's gonna be people checking her, you know, with her house. 209 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: You know it's she's not off the book in or 210 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: con for the week. So hey, thank you. You don't 211 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: fromation office structures that. And you know I'm gonna be 212 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: honest with you. I haven't done a PC vie too, 213 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: and so on. It's gonna changes in a lot. But 214 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: it's either I think it's three years and three out 215 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: and how much time will she actually served. Um, she's 216 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: gonna serve well, you'll defended on the good time to 217 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: arculations about the the jail. Um. Uh, she's she's gonna 218 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: serve it for a year at this whole four Uh. 219 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: But the she's she also she had a probably custody 220 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: so she's actually attacked by dr INDs. So she's gonna 221 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: be she's gonna be all in at a separate part 222 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: from jail now. So I think that may affect her 223 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: A good tongue of them, But again I'm not not 224 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: uncount for what can you just have a big picture 225 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: put the same perspective in terms of just everything from 226 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: start to end? I mean, where, what does you know? 227 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: Does this sort of cap everything? It's been such a 228 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: long journey for all of you guys, um it seems 229 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: like involved in here pot you know, a decade together. 230 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: So can you sort of like put into all in perspective? 231 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: You can only guitar about the case itself a little bit, Yeah, okay, sure. 232 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: So basically Dan Original, Dansa and lost you're got to 233 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: get married. Yeah yeah, yeah, defense that uh you just 234 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: lost planted this whole thing um in word to pay 235 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: for their wedding. He uh put together this diabolical, insane 236 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: plots of murder um Sam here and it's a kids 237 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: at m park every wedding. The proving um and then 238 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: use the cell phone to who were where it is 239 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: a junie keep ship to Sam's part, but to murder 240 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: her stage in to look like it was like he 241 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: was a brave and use SAMs the example or to 242 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: getting money out um in order to to attain his 243 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: financial posts. Uh. The case went on. In my view, 244 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: I think God lost a case too waiting long again 245 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: to try the mad people in his failings that were 246 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: suffering from cancer at the time. I mean that there 247 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: was that it was unnecessary in anti Della. But once 248 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: it finally got going around, we had a view. A 249 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: security court judge this case. It was so disgusting some 250 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: attacks is fus recused himself as as the first time 251 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: I wants to make history. We had a part out. 252 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: Uh they he was so disgusted with what he saw 253 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: the defensive viewer and he refused himself. And it's he 254 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: felt it you can help be fay so be. It 255 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: took to way too long, I make way too many 256 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: aperitis um, but we finally we we tried it in 257 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: front of a very good church by John Connolly followed 258 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: the law and everything right. He gave an offense and 259 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: me it wasn't like every opportunity to to to run 260 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: with virtually every theory all the way up to the 261 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: point of the defense. Wanted to dedicate the memory of 262 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: a ward Arro came back, he survived the Taliban, he 263 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: got murdered by the ships Ball community theater hack. I 264 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: think Gami the lass okay, so um, the power put 265 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: a stop to that idea you could offense that they 266 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: could not, and then the California laws says you cannot 267 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: assassinate the character to move. That's one of those things 268 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't need a lot on that what we 269 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: have before held the defense of that, and offense has 270 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: been complaining about it ever since. When you got any 271 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: questions that I shouldn't you get any questions on that point? 272 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: N sure? Okay uh so uh. These families have gone 273 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: through a lot, they have They've been I can see 274 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: how a personal note, Um, they are the nicest people 275 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: you can have propope to meet. Um our brakes m 276 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: that's just our entire prosecution team. Um, you know, and 277 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: then tragically I'll say, you know we have um. The 278 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: media has been so professional the way I tell this, 279 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: I have enough but respect for the difficult job in 280 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: chos to do sensitivity that people are showing to these 281 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: family members, students process with one excel. There's good a 282 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: podcast comling right now that's been used as a platform 283 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: to detegrate that the member to see er um. I 284 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: think that creates unnecessary emotional part party but excamily numbers. 285 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: I think it's disgusting people like amounts to participate in 286 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: that podcast the postmas basic parment, it's likely not to 287 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: participate in that podcast. They provided in platforms or visualizing 288 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: as a past attorney to to essentially denigrate the victim 289 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: of assuming please without question to really this in this 290 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: in this word, did Sam Earth did nothing wrong leading 291 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: up to response. All the times we do with these 292 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: cases where the victims are in some way they're they're 293 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: using drudge and they're doing something wrong, the circumstances wind 294 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: up leading to their death. In this particular phase, who 295 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: was totally yes man served himself sure part Piper in 296 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: at is it you survived eighty two days? A hitter 297 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: row a baseball can heating that was over learning how 298 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: to teleman. We have tacts that absolute heroists. Great about 299 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: his apparent who came back in its word and now 300 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: his memories being dragon, but I liked the best him 301 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: and somebody who's actually giving a media platform, and I've 302 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like into a great threading. The 303 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: vast majority of professional journalism that Rage County rational would 304 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: touches that none of them are touched on except with 305 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: one person, and that is that that's very, very dissapoint 306 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: So is there anything you can say about you know, 307 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,239 Speaker 1: these plasmia an if you guys lower, But as far 308 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: as you know an appeal being cloud or anything like 309 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: that moving forward or during the day, there's not at you. 310 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: It's not so every every death colter chase in uh 311 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: in california's an outfield. But I wouldn't give you a 312 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: chance for But that is your position that Daniel wass 313 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: Ac should not be on death row? Is that your position? 314 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: But thank you? All right? Any the thoughts of questions, 315 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: anything you guys wanted on? Yeah, anyway, doing any start soon, 316 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: any podcast and said in the first few years Sam 317 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: rs and kill kill anytime anywhere to bate him, but 318 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: he got to stop going after a dead man, a 319 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: quid dead man. That's all I've got to say. He 320 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: dead saying there's he puits there is such a thing, 321 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: because he had the decity to come up with examples 322 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: that were absolutely ridiculous, and we were very thankful to 323 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: the jewelers that didn't buy these games and standards, and 324 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: he had like a little child, and then he was 325 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: whining every time he were come into court, and we 326 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: had to sit through hours of his whining and offensive behavior, 327 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: especially towards Matt mc murphy. So if there is such 328 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: a thing or revittle finding claims against him, I wish 329 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: there would be a way. And we're still thinking about it. 330 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: And by then, I mean I I just don't know 331 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: what I faced with a person A h Okay, So 332 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: we just saw the unedited press conference, and I'd like 333 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: to first ask Mr Sanders how he feels about what 334 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: he just saw. Well, first of all, of course, you know, 335 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: these are family members going through an emotional experience. They 336 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: lost loved ones, and so I feel for them. Whether 337 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: they think that or not, I really I understand that 338 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: they probably don't, but I do. That's just and I 339 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: want to say that I've gotten to know you over 340 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: the last three years and I completely believe what you're 341 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: saying because I know that you have a lot of 342 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: heart and you feel for the victims families. It's difficult 343 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: if you're in a case like this to see what 344 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: we were doing and at some point to see it 345 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: anything other than you're just getting in the way of 346 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: our justice. So you know when the family member who 347 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: who's been involved and been present a lot is talking about, well, 348 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: I put up all these battles, you know, those are 349 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: things that I think we're all appropriate, and I think 350 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: historically they will prove out to be appropriate. We raised 351 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: a lot of important issues, and that's what happens in 352 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: a death penalty case. Um, there are more issues that 353 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: we were actually would have for to proceed on in pursue. 354 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: I've been a crime reporter for thirty years and I 355 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: know Mr Moxley is just about the same, and most 356 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: capital cases take about that length of time to get 357 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: into the courtroom. Would you agree with me, Mr Moxley, 358 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely definitely, you know. So you know, in our case 359 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: took about the average period of time for a capital case, 360 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: and as we know, the case of Rachel Buffett took 361 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: locker than the capital case. But I know you're the 362 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: inclination of Mr Murphy is to kind of push it 363 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: back towards the Waia case, the Wasna case. In terms 364 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: of the other issues, there's there's just so much obviously 365 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: on the podcast. You I don't know the number of 366 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: hours that the podcast is taken. Almost seventeen hours of 367 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: content at this point and we're not finished. So I 368 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: think the issues with regard to Um, Sam her and 369 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: the prior incident took up about four minutes in total 370 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: of the entire podcast. So when Mr Murphy says the 371 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: podcast is about entic rating the memory Um, obviously that's 372 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: not the podcast. Right. Well, there was a question you 373 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: asked me. You asked me a question I answered it candidly. 374 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: It kind of mushroomed where Mr I asked you specifically 375 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: what you felt was one of the most egregious rulings 376 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: in the capital case that you defended and your with 377 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: your client Daniel Wazniac, and your response was about Sam's 378 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: past not getting in. Mr Murphy said essentially that we 379 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: are actually were almost out of bounds in asking for 380 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: the admissibility of that evidence. That's certainly not the case. 381 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: I mean that that will be a debated issue on appeal, 382 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: but that is once his personality, his character went in. 383 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely it was appropriate for for us to ask and 384 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: I think for us to actually have it to be 385 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: admitted it wasn't. But that happens a lot. You know, 386 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: in all forms of criminal litigation, certainly in capital litigation, 387 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: the defendants are gonna lose. I don't think that has 388 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: anything to do with whether we should have appropriately pursued it. 389 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: We would have been incompetent candly if we didn't pursue 390 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: that issue. I think on the Appellate Council looking back 391 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: at our work would have said why in the world 392 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: did you not pursue that? And we disagree with the ruling. 393 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: But that's all that was. We asked for it, we 394 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: were and you felt the door was open to do 395 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: that when Mr Murphy discussed his time as a veteran right. So, 396 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we talked about this a little 397 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: bit in the episode. I don't want to labor the point, 398 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: but that was exactly what we were not seeking to 399 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: introduce it. In fact, as we've kind of said, we 400 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: weren't even really prepared to introduce it. We thought there 401 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: was going to be a limitation on what was going 402 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: to go before the jury, and then the next thing 403 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: we knew we were getting into issues like what was 404 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: going on in Afghanistan versus the other option for the prosecution, 405 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: which was just to rely simply upon the effect of 406 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: the loss in terms of loved ones and family and friends, 407 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: which also would have been extremely powerful, But they decided 408 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: to go to this next spot. We said that if 409 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: you're going to do that, then there should be a 410 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: whole picture. We lost. But certainly, again, the podcast hasn't 411 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: been about that or assassinating Sam Hairs. And I've said 412 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: from the beginning, no matter what somebody did or didn't 413 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: do before this moment in time, they shouldn't die. Nothing 414 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: like this should happen to anyone. So I've never moved 415 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: from that or suggested that his life at any less value. 416 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: Of course, me as a defense lawyer, we're seeing value 417 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: in lives that many people couldn't see. So we understand that. 418 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: And I feel that I would like to say on 419 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: the record, have I ever once, in all the times 420 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: that we've met, have I ever said to you, I 421 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: believe your client doesn't belong on death row? You haven't 422 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: said that, Thank you, Mr Moxley. That's your office, that 423 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: Santa and a court house, and nobody I've watched Alma 424 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: A thousand of those type of press conferences over the 425 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: years here in Orange County and twenty three years of 426 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: covering that courthouse and press conferences like that. I've never 427 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: seen that before. And that was other than the introduction 428 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: of you. That was pretty much what I've seen all 429 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: the time, the emotion from the victims and the prosecutor 430 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: making statements, but coming after you, that was rare. And wait, 431 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: you're shocked by that? To Paul, Oh, I'm totally shocked 432 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: by that. It's just, um, you know, it's a perfect 433 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: example of the unprofessionalism that lives in that office. And 434 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: to see that, I'm completely blown away by it. As 435 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: we all know here, this has happened before where a 436 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: prosecutor thought that Mr Wilson here was Moxley and went 437 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,239 Speaker 1: after him. It's showing a little bit of unhingement there. Oh, 438 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: did that happen to you as well? Well? At a 439 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: which hearing? Was that Decry one of the Decry hearings. Paul, 440 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: you were you were in attendance and he thought the 441 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: prosecutor thought you, in fact were Mr Moxley. That's correct 442 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: what happened. Then he went, don't you were there? He came. 443 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: He came from behind the podium that he was standing at. Um. 444 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: I was behind Channel seven's camera and he came from 445 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: behind the podium and approached me, pointing his finger like 446 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: is is that? Mr Moxley? And I came from behind 447 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: the camera and approached him and let him know. No, 448 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: my name is Paul Wilson, and I'm from the Seal 449 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: Beach Salon shootings, which your office, and I'm a victims 450 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: family whether my wife died on the Yes, I think 451 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: it actually came. It came related to the Decry case. 452 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: It was the informant asker morial. It was. It was 453 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: the sentencing memorial a couple of days before Christmas, So 454 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: that was the informant. That was all about the informant 455 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: scandal and the Decry case, which is a separate case 456 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: from what this podcast has been focused on. But you 457 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: represented both clients, both Daniel Wesniak and Scott to cry okay. 458 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you Scott, Mr Moxley. UM, I 459 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: have two Scotts here, so I'm gonna go back to 460 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: the misters if that's okay. UM, I wanted to ask you, 461 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: Mr Moxley, how do you feel when you hear the 462 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: prosecutor not only roast me and my podcast, but he 463 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: made us suggect Sen that all the other journalists are 464 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: professional because they're not covering the podcast except for one, 465 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: and that's you. I take that as a badge of 466 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: honor because my position in covering any court hearing is 467 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: to my readers to tell the truth to my readers. 468 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: So I'm not editing out anything that's major. The motion 469 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: that Mr Sanders made in WASSN'TI Act pertaining to the victims, 470 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: his criminal history is part of the court record, and 471 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: there was a huge battling court and I'm not going 472 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: to sit there and go, well, I'm I'm not going 473 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: to share that with my readers. That's what happened in court. 474 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: It's a fact. That's not how I work. And on 475 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: some level, I think he was without mentioning your name, 476 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: he was referencing you because you have in fact been 477 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: covering the podcast. I mean, how do you take that statement. 478 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: I'm not worried about that. I think my position is more. Um, Look, 479 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: I've I've been covering trials here for many years and 480 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: the work that you've done has been outstanding. You've taught 481 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: I've said in the court room for hours and hours, 482 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: and in this case, you taught me many things that 483 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: I never knew. And um so I think focusing attention 484 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: on what on your work that was important to do, 485 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: the public needs to know what else you discovered. People 486 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: can disagree with your conclusions or whatever information you're putting 487 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: out there, but highlighting it for the public and digging 488 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: as deeply as you did, discovering so many important issues 489 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: that are still lingering there as they're trying to wrap 490 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: up the case, it's important. Well, it's nice to have 491 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: the appreciation and the respect of another fellow investigative journalist. 492 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: And I really do appreciate that I have been working 493 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: on this for three years. I know at one point 494 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: you said to me, I think you beat my ass 495 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: on this one, and you never have your ass beating 496 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: on anything. I mean, Scott Moxley, probably, I have to 497 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: tell you, of all the journalists I have read and 498 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: covered in my lifetime, I'm never been more impressed by 499 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: a person. And I just think what the work you're 500 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: doing singularly, I feel like you're an island onto yourself 501 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: in this town, and I am just so amazed at 502 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: the and you. You beat out everybody else. I got 503 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: you on one maybe, but you got it on every 504 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,239 Speaker 1: other story that came out of this county for how 505 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: many years? Paul, I wanted to ask you how you 506 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: feel about watching this press conference. I know that you 507 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: were sitting in the courtroom in front of me and 508 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about the Thousand Oaks shooting 509 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: and how it brings back so much for you. Does 510 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: participating in the sentencing. I know you came for the verdict. 511 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: I saw you a couple of other times in the 512 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: courtroom for for Rachel Buffett successory trial. How does it 513 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: feel when you're watching the press conference? Well, as I 514 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: watched this right now, you know, it's sort of a 515 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: very emotional piece for me because I've stood in that 516 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: same position right there for almost seven years, and it's tough. 517 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: It's really tough for me, and I can understand the frustration. 518 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: But what I can also understand is from my experience 519 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: is we clearly see what's going on here, which is 520 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: the win at all costs mentality of that District Attorney's office. 521 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: I have a observation in a comment based on watching 522 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: Mr Morphy's performance during the press conference, one is that 523 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: the sister of the hers mentioned in her comments three 524 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: or four feet away from the prosecutor that she said, 525 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: wasn't it just wasn't the two. There's more as far 526 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: as the murders of Sam and Julie that it wasn't 527 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: just Daniel, was Nick alone. And that's the theme that 528 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: you've been exploring that seems to cause so much frustration 529 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: for the prosecutor. The other part is that when we 530 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: switched judges from Stottler, Stotler procused himself and John Connley, 531 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: a former Homer Side prosecutor and Matt's unit. When we're 532 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: covering the case, there's this incredible moment of bias. Matt 533 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: says he made perfect routlings, he never did anything wrong, 534 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: and he followed the law. There was one point where 535 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: Mr Sanders filed an important motion in the death penalty case, 536 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: and the and the judge sealed it, and he kept 537 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: it sealed, but he let Matt Murphy have it and 538 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: respond and write his own brief. We had for days 539 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: Murphy's response to what we couldn't read. He let that 540 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: be on the record. Remember that the dailies got to 541 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: write stories about Matt's response to something that was sealed. 542 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: That's that's not right, and he should be Both Matt 543 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: Murphy and Judge Connelly should be embarrassed about that. I 544 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: remember that quite well, and I'm sure you do as well. 545 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: Mr Sanders had to have been another frustrating moment in 546 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: a series, right, And that's part of you know, Look, 547 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: that's if you're candidly not like, oh, poor defense counsel, 548 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: but defense counsel. He's going to be up against a 549 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: lot of battles. So that's why we do have a 550 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: thick skin in the even these situations watching it, you know, 551 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,959 Speaker 1: we're all gonna it hurts because you hate to see 552 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: family members convinced that you are this terrible figure. Yeah, 553 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: that's you know, nobody wants that. But the other hand, 554 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 1: as you've said before, they're in a terrible position. They're 555 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: in so much pain, and and the sister's right that 556 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: pain doesn't go away. So I understand, and I you know, 557 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: I go back and forth even with Mr. Her I 558 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: don't like a lot of the things he said, but 559 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: I also understand how much he hates what's happened to 560 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: he and his wife's lives. I mean, are a family man, 561 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: you understand that kind of pain. So you know, I 562 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: would rather they didn't hate me on an individual level. 563 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: I really would, but there's not much you can do 564 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: at some point. Well, I can only say that I 565 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: also joined you in that I wish Mr Hair didn't 566 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: feel the way he does about me. Now. I have 567 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: spent it quite a lot of time with him over 568 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: the years, because together we really did collaborate on this 569 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: and and share a lot of information. And I haven't 570 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: changed my opinion. I haven't moved off of my mission, 571 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,280 Speaker 1: which is to uncover the truth about everything that happened 572 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: in the murder of his son and his friend Julie. 573 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: And I wish that he could see pass the four 574 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: minutes of a seventeen hour podcast that's still clocking, so 575 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: that he can appreciate that I'm still focused on the 576 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: end result, which is to make sure everybody pays. But 577 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,959 Speaker 1: I do want to reiterate, just because this statement was said, 578 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: I don't believe Daniels next should have gotten a death penalty, 579 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: and and that's your opinion. And again I tried to 580 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: tell Mr Hair, I am not going to censor an 581 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: invited guest on my podcast. I will never do that. 582 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: I am a proponent, as I know Mr Moxley, as 583 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: we live our lives according to the First Amendment, and 584 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: you have a right to your opinion. I don't believe 585 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, and it starts for me that I don't 586 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: believe these proceedings were completely fair from beginning to d 587 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: and so, and that's your opinion. I'd like to now 588 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: show you what, unfortunately happened after this press conference when 589 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: Mr Hare decided to walk over to me after its conclusion. 590 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: Editor's note, for the benefit of our listeners, I just 591 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: want to clarify that the gist of what you're about 592 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: to hear Mr Hair say to me is everything to 593 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: do with episode three where Scott Sanders mentioned Steve Hair's 594 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: son Sam Hair's history of being charged with murder, and 595 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 1: then in episode four I gave Mr Hair a chance 596 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: to respond to what Mr Sanders said about his son's background. 597 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: He had five minutes, and then Mr Sanders had the 598 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: opportunity to respond for five minutes. But it did take 599 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: Mr Sanders up until our air date to decide whether 600 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: or not he was going to engage in that conversation. 601 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: He finally did, and I didn't have any more time 602 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: left in my studio to give Mr Hair the immediate 603 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: chance to respond to Mr sanders comments. But I did 604 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 1: offer him the chance to go on the next episode. 605 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: Mr Hare declined because I believe at that point he 606 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: got upset after what he heard Mr Sanders say. So 607 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: here's the tape and you can hear the conversation that 608 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: happened after the press conference for yourselves up. I told 609 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: him he was he wanted to make it until the 610 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: very last day, and then he said, and I am 611 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: going to make just like season. And I said to you, 612 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: you want to come on the nick, I said, we 613 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: want responsible now all you musicable see if I spoke 614 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: you and I up until that point he wasn't. And 615 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: it respond he said he didn't want to get into 616 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 1: an engagement to you. I could want to feel that way. 617 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,959 Speaker 1: You know what, I don't think I feel the first 618 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: you out here just a senser. I'm believe in the question. 619 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: She didn't give me a pen to immediately respond. Told 620 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: you you could any time you want if he hi, 621 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: you don't watch. So what you just saw was Mr 622 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: Hair coming over to me. And my understanding is he's 623 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 1: exasperated because he felt he didn't get the last word 624 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,399 Speaker 1: what happened was after the episode, the episode three, where 625 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 1: I asked Mr Sanders about the ruling that he felt was, 626 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: of all of them, the one that upset him the most. 627 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: And obviously Mr Hair was very upset with the way 628 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: in which that conversation was framed. I spent about three 629 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: minutes talking about Sam's past. I don't think you spent 630 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: more than a minute talking about the ruling. And it 631 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,439 Speaker 1: seems like he still has not been able to move 632 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: past that. And so he came over to me and 633 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: he said he wanted a chance to respond. I have 634 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: always given Mr Hair the opportunity to respond, and he 635 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,479 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to remember that, I guess, but he's still 636 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: and I will state it for the record once more. You, 637 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: Mr Hair, always are invited to come on this podcast 638 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: and speak your mind and say whatever you want to 639 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: say about the way in which we discussed your son's 640 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: past in the context of this case. I'd love to 641 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: know how you feel about what you saw. Mr Moxley, Well, 642 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: I can't help but think about my first experience when 643 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: I met him after the murders, and and I was 644 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: at his house with his wife, and he was so emotional. 645 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 1: I spent maybe three and a half four hours there, 646 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: and he was full of anger and rage, and I 647 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,359 Speaker 1: was worried about him when I left. And I've seen 648 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: him many times in the courthouse in recent years, and 649 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 1: what comes to me, not getting getting saving you for 650 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: the last it was just he's taken a deep breath. 651 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,919 Speaker 1: He's able to smile more, even though it's never he's 652 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 1: never gonna get over what happened to his son. His 653 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: whole persona has taken a much lighter position. And you know, 654 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: I respect him for standing up and doing what he 655 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: thinks is right, but I also respect you, and I 656 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: know that's a difficult position. I've been in that position 657 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: as well, and it's unfortunate because I think Matt kind 658 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,800 Speaker 1: of fueled that what he had said leading up to that, 659 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: those moments when it really wasn't necessary. I think that 660 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: Mr Murphy seems to be fueling the victim's pain in 661 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: his frustration with me and the podcast and the guests 662 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: that I bring on to speak their opinion. But I 663 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: do believe that it's Mr Murphy himself that's upset with 664 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: the things that we are discussing on this podcast, and 665 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: I think it would be hoove him to just be 666 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,399 Speaker 1: straight about that, right, because I don't think it's fair 667 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: or it's right to be using the victims family's pain 668 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 1: that way. I mean, how do you feel about that, Paul, Well, 669 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: obviously I I don't agree with that. And um there 670 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: that office is very good at using the victims and 671 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: when they want to and when they need something. And 672 00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, this is tough for me to 673 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: com meant on this because those are tough shoes to 674 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: walk in. And I understand the frustration and the grief, 675 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,280 Speaker 1: and you understand it firsthand firsthand, and it never goes away. 676 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: The healing never goes it never lets up, and the 677 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: emotion you can get carried away to that. And I 678 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: understand that, but you do if you're gonna, if you're 679 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: gonna be in this position I'm walking those shoes, you 680 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: have to you have to look at both sides, and 681 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: in this in this case, the big picture and the 682 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,359 Speaker 1: big picture, and in this case, I mean, it's it's 683 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: it's much like mine, and there's there's a lot of 684 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: fault to be put on that d a's office. And 685 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: I did over and over. I met with Mr Hare 686 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: and his wife almost weekly for nearly three years, and 687 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: I always reminded him, I'm a journalist and I am 688 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: going to have to tell the story of your son's 689 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: past because it's part of the reason he was the 690 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: target for these murders, and I please accept that and 691 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: appreciate that. And he always acknowledged that. So it's it's unfortunate. 692 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: I know you're jumping in here to say, you know, 693 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: I still feel for him as I'm hearing that, because 694 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: I understand that he just there's still just a ton 695 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 1: of pain. And even with all of this, I look 696 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: at him and I go as much as he he 697 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: hates me, um at this moment and maybe forever, I 698 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: still feel badly for him, and I feel like, boy, 699 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: if he wants the last word, have it. I won't 700 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: say another word. You can say whatever you want about me. 701 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: And he said a lot of things about me in 702 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: a lot of context, and look, a lot of that 703 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,959 Speaker 1: stuff I've just let roll, you know, off my back. 704 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,439 Speaker 1: And that's it's just part of doing this work. People 705 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: are going to get very frustrated in experience like this. 706 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: So even listening to him now, I kind of wish 707 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,800 Speaker 1: if I could do it all over again. I didn't 708 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: stop him from having the last word. Of course, I'm 709 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: just saying I kind of wish you would have because 710 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: I know that he feels like there's something that he 711 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: wants to say, and even though it's aimed at me, 712 00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: I kind of wish he could have it. And if 713 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 1: he wants you, I certainly wouldn't make the assurance that 714 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: I wouldn't even ask you to come back on. So 715 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: if he comes back on, he he comes back on, 716 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: he can say whatever he wants. And I've and I 717 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: have presented that to him many times and I echo 718 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: that sentiment. Let me let me toss in here a 719 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: little bit that I I know, I've I've observed it firsthand. 720 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: There are many great people in d A's office who 721 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: do great victim service, incredible service over the years. I've 722 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,839 Speaker 1: watched it, um. But I think what Paul's raising here's 723 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: an interesting point that sometimes it doesn't play out well. 724 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: He's clearly Mr Wilson's clearly a victim. And yet tell 725 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: me if I'm right, you were tossed out of the 726 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,399 Speaker 1: District Attorneys building during a press conference when they found 727 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: out it was it was him, yes? Correct? What yes? 728 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: When they were announcing the Golden State Killer. I showed 729 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: up to attend the press conference, and initially they were 730 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 1: going to let me in and tell my name is 731 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: circulated around the office, and a gentleman by the name 732 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: of Paul Carbo came out and told me that I 733 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: was not welcome in there. And it was after the 734 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: cover story that I wrote featuring the two of them. 735 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: So let's let's get it in the context for our listeners. 736 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: You did write an article about the story about this 737 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,800 Speaker 1: relationship which we're going to get into in a future episode, 738 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: the relationship between Mr Sanders and Mr Wilson, Paul Wilson, 739 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,359 Speaker 1: And so it was after and it's basically a story 740 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:26,800 Speaker 1: about what an unlikely pair, right um, Mr Mr Sanders 741 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: represented the person that killed his wife, and so yet 742 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: together they have formed this alliance to seek out and 743 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,720 Speaker 1: try to shine a light on the on the corruption 744 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: that's going on in the justice system in Orange County. 745 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: And so after that article that you wrote, that's when 746 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: it happened. Yeah, it was probably a couple of weeks afterwards, 747 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: and an TONI was Rococcus was holding a big press 748 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: conference to announce the Golden States that they were they 749 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: were teaming up and making a progress and like I 750 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 1: show it up, just like the media. I stood in line, 751 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: I wrote my name on the piece of paper and 752 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: that was all they told me. At ten o'clock, open 753 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: the doors and you're ready to go in. And I 754 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,240 Speaker 1: went outside the way. About five minutes later, Mr Carbo 755 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,920 Speaker 1: came out and said, we've thought about this and we're 756 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: not going to allow you into this. You're not allowed 757 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: to come into doors today. I mean that's so I 758 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: waited until ten o'clock and everybody went in and I 759 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: attempted to walk through the doors and they escorted me 760 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: out again. They did, Yes, how did you feel about that? 761 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,240 Speaker 1: It's a public place, a public place, I'm a citizen. 762 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: Why can't I attend? They're afraid of THEE I knew 763 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: about it, and it doesn't surprise me because Paul's been 764 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: up against a lot of this stuff, and I think 765 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,799 Speaker 1: there's probably been more than one where you've been at 766 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 1: least they've wanted to kind of keep you away. And look, 767 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: he's not just a citizen, he's he's what the D's 768 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: Office usually treasures. I mean, he's a victim of a 769 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: very very serious case. So that's that's unusual treatment, but 770 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,399 Speaker 1: it's less unusual when you considered for them the fact 771 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: that he has reached some mutual understanding with a person 772 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: they don't like very much. I guess that's me, and 773 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 1: who has taken an adverse position to them, explains that 774 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:21,399 Speaker 1: it's he's His importance as a victim has become far 775 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: less um since he's spoken out about what he thinks. 776 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: So he's not he's not considered one of them. So 777 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: you're feeling the repercussions of choosing to once again look 778 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: at the big picture here and and make this a 779 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,280 Speaker 1: journey that you've decided is important to you, absolutely, without 780 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,720 Speaker 1: a doubt. How does that make you feel, Scott covering 781 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: this for so many years, such stuff happened. One of 782 00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: the things I think is important for the listeners to 783 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,279 Speaker 1: know is that in my article that the pivot point 784 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: for Mr Wilson was the realization that the distric att 785 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,720 Speaker 1: Ernie's protest about how much he was for the victim 786 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,400 Speaker 1: was really hollow. And there was a meeting you might 787 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: want to describe where it dawned on you, if my 788 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: memory is right, that you're looking at him and you 789 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: saw nothing in his eyes and basically said I'll make 790 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: the decisions I want, I don't, I don't need your 791 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,799 Speaker 1: input something to that effect. Please please share. Yeah, sure, 792 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: this is when we had found out that there had 793 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: been a Scott You might want to chime in just 794 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: to refresh my memory, but there had been a deal 795 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,799 Speaker 1: put on the table, and this would have been about 796 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: a year, year, year and a half, a little over 797 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,840 Speaker 1: a year into the case. A little yep, it was. 798 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,840 Speaker 1: It was in two thousand. There work several times actually 799 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: where it was suggested, um so I'm not sure which 800 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: time that was, but in two thousands have been one 801 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: of the first times it was introduced directly in in courts. 802 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: So us as the family members sitting in the courtroom 803 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 1: they wanted to share, were hearing this deal that they 804 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: were they weren't sharing it with us. We were hearing 805 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: Mr Sanders got saying that, you know, deals on the 806 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: table and they're deciding not to take it. And we 807 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: looked each other like, what deal? What are you talking about? 808 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: So as as as usual after court we would go 809 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: back into the Little d A's office and have a 810 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: discussion about what had happened, and of course it came 811 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: up and Mr Wagner, um Scott Simmons. Scott Simmons had 812 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,640 Speaker 1: told us what was going on, and these are two 813 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors. I just couldn't believe that was that 814 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: was out there and that we weren't. So I demanded 815 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,800 Speaker 1: an immediate meeting with Tony himself. I got that meeting, 816 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: and it was very brief. It was the deal that 817 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: was being offered. We exactly what we got seven years later, 818 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:48,760 Speaker 1: life life in prison without parole, special circumstances, pleading to everything, 819 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: everything that we ended up getting. Just it came seven 820 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,320 Speaker 1: So you know, I remember sitting across from Tony and 821 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,840 Speaker 1: Scott Simmons and Dad Wagner in there, and I emphasis 822 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 1: of Tony that I can't understand how you would have 823 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: this and not bring it to the families at least 824 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,360 Speaker 1: to let us know, and why why would we just 825 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: hear this in court and not have any idea? And 826 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,319 Speaker 1: he just looked at me with that callous and those 827 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: empty eyes and said to me, well, the reason is, 828 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 1: Mr Wilson, because it's not your decision, it's my decision, 829 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,640 Speaker 1: and we are seeking nothing other than the death penalty, 830 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,480 Speaker 1: plain and simple. That was the ends of the conversation. 831 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: So it was shocking, shocking. So getting back to the 832 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,799 Speaker 1: press conference footage, Mr Moxley, you know Matt Murphy better 833 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:47,279 Speaker 1: than anybody here today. What is your final observation? You 834 00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 1: could see he was thinking about what he what he's 835 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: going to say. He's an incredibly articulate prosecutor, key controls 836 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,840 Speaker 1: and dominates court rooms. There's no doubt has done that 837 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: for a long time. But going after you in that 838 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: way kind of cross the line. Why do you think 839 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: Matt behaved the way he did in the pressor? I 840 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know, Mr Sanders, why do you 841 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,760 Speaker 1: think Mr Murphy acted as he did? Well, these aren't 842 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,759 Speaker 1: things that he wants to talked about. You know, he 843 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: wants Woznia to just go out for twenty years and 844 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 1: and in his mind, hopefully be executed at that point. 845 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,959 Speaker 1: He doesn't want to go through you week after week 846 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,160 Speaker 1: analyzing whether the two cases are consistent, whether arguments are changing. 847 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what he didn't talk about here, although 848 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: that's what I thought he was most upset about. Right, 849 00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: He definitely right, he's upset because we've been talking about 850 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 1: the difference in the arguments and the different interpretations that 851 00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: should be used for different pieces of evidence that's conspicuously 852 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,239 Speaker 1: missing from what he said here and said he's he 853 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,040 Speaker 1: used the thing that will rev people up right, Um, 854 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,960 Speaker 1: you're not being fair to Steve her That's the kind 855 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: of stuff that he wants to get out there. He 856 00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,759 Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk about because he's free to You've 857 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: for to him many times. He can come to this 858 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 1: podcasts in writing. Yeah, and I know you've made it 859 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 1: so that you won't even have to worry about a 860 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,479 Speaker 1: last word for me. He can be the last word. 861 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,560 Speaker 1: He can speak as long as he wants. I imagine 862 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,719 Speaker 1: you'd let him talk for a couple hours if you wanted, 863 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: and refute everything that's been sad. His press people said 864 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,040 Speaker 1: that he would come on only if I retracted everything 865 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,319 Speaker 1: that I've said, But that doesn't make any sense because 866 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,960 Speaker 1: he is, as Mr Moxley just said, there's no question 867 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,520 Speaker 1: he's articulate, he's smart, he's very good in the courtroom. 868 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 1: He doesn't need a retraction. If he owns this evidence 869 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,439 Speaker 1: in the way he would suggest he does without saying 870 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,960 Speaker 1: it here, he can do it. He'll powerfully refute everything 871 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,840 Speaker 1: that I've said, all of my analysis. So, Mr Murphy, 872 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,520 Speaker 1: if you're listening. You are welcome to come on the 873 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,320 Speaker 1: podcast and speak your opinion, just like all my other guests. 874 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:54,120 Speaker 1: The podcast has been out for nearly three months and 875 00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:00,879 Speaker 1: we have been able to develop by a listening base, 876 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,800 Speaker 1: and some of those listeners send me comments, and the 877 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 1: overwhelming sense of the comments are that they're just it's 878 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,799 Speaker 1: incredulous to so many. Why the d A didn't charge 879 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,520 Speaker 1: it with murder. Well, you know we've talked about it 880 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,759 Speaker 1: before on the podcast. I don't. I'm not going to 881 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 1: really take issue completely with whether he should or he shouldn't. 882 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,439 Speaker 1: I think you can make those calls. He's made his call, 883 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,080 Speaker 1: But the term came up when at all costs you 884 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,320 Speaker 1: don't in the DA office has existed to date. You 885 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 1: try not to come back unsuccessfully, and that case, in 886 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,439 Speaker 1: his mind may be one that there's a lesser chance 887 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,600 Speaker 1: of success that that maybe he doesn't think at this 888 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 1: point is strong enough. Now you've developed a bunch of 889 00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,719 Speaker 1: evidence that I think would arguably help him quite a 890 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 1: bit that was actually given to him, A dossier of 891 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,080 Speaker 1: ten pages of evidence that was in fact given to 892 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,200 Speaker 1: him and in fact used in many instances. I sat 893 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,120 Speaker 1: through that try all and I felt and I think 894 00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,120 Speaker 1: I've said this to you in a previous episode, that 895 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: he presented a case for murder right in the accessory 896 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: after the fact trial. And it's just ironic that our 897 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 1: listeners and jurors that I spoke to believed that she 898 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,600 Speaker 1: was more involved in these murders, yet the prosecutor wouldn't 899 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 1: charge it with murder. And also, look, this is Steve 900 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 1: HER's number one mission, right, he wants accountability for all 901 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 1: people involved, and he has frustration because I said something 902 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,239 Speaker 1: I won't even repeat at this moment, but ninety eight 903 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,840 Speaker 1: percent has been your analysis of that and talking about 904 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:46,960 Speaker 1: that evidence. And even here at the press campers at 905 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,320 Speaker 1: the very end, what do you hear them saying. They're saying, 906 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,719 Speaker 1: we still want accountability. And the one person who's been 907 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,680 Speaker 1: pressing for accountability like none there has been, you, Thank 908 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:59,880 Speaker 1: you I and I won't stop. And I think Ms 909 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,560 Speaker 1: Or Moxley knows that passion right so much a part 910 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,839 Speaker 1: of your life. Well, I just want to thank all 911 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,920 Speaker 1: of you gentlemen for coming in today to to speak 912 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:14,080 Speaker 1: to us on Sleuth and Mr Moxley, my colleague, thank 913 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,200 Speaker 1: you for your time. And Mr Wilson, our condolences for 914 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:22,360 Speaker 1: your loss and appreciate what you're doing on behalf of 915 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:27,239 Speaker 1: Orange County and Mr Sanders, keep fighting the fight. Thank you. 916 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,680 Speaker 1: Next time on Sleuth, we're going to surprise you with 917 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,520 Speaker 1: a guest who I like to call my deep throat. 918 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 1: She's come forward since Sleuth has been published, with revelations 919 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,560 Speaker 1: that will astonish you more than any other episode you've 920 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,640 Speaker 1: heard to date. After three years of digging and sleuthing 921 00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,240 Speaker 1: on this case, we are fine only able to reveal 922 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,480 Speaker 1: the definitive pieces of this murderous puzzle. You will not 923 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:11,320 Speaker 1: want to miss a single minute. If you enjoyed this 924 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,759 Speaker 1: episode of Sleuth, share it with a friend and be 925 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,080 Speaker 1: sure to leave a rating or review. Follow Sleuth on 926 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,800 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts 927 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:23,840 Speaker 1: so that you never miss an episode