1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: discussion of suicide and self harm. 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advice. For twenty years, I told no 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: one her story. I tucked it into me like a 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: grotesque treasure, a cold gem that I guarded with ferocious pride. 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: Uncertain who else knew. Mom and I never talked about 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: it again, and no one, not my father or his parents, 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: or any of my mother's friends, ever asked me about 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: the fire or what sense I, as a young girl, 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 2: had made of it. People ask about my relationship with fire. 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: You must be afraid of it, they say, I'm so sorry. 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: My college roommate says, after she burns toast to a 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: smoky crisp in the kitchen, releasing plumes of smoke. Who 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: smell lingers for days? Does this trigger you? It's okay, 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: I shrug, It's just toast. I have no relationship with fire. Really, 16 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: relationships are cultivated, nurtured. This I inherited. 17 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: That's Nina Saint Pierre, culture writer, essayist, editor, and author 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: of the recent memoir Love Is a Burning Thing. Nina's 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: is a story about surviving the people who precede us 20 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: those we love but cannot emulate those we wish to protect, 21 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: but not at the expense of destroying ourselves. It's a 22 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: story of tenacity, resilience, and hope. I'm Danny Shapiro and 23 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 24 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 25 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. Tell me about the landscape of your childhood. 26 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: It was sort of a roving landscape. I'd say, it's 27 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: kind of always in motion. And you know, I was 28 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: born in a small Transcendental meditation community in Fairfield, Iowa. 29 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: My parents sort of split but remained geographically close to 30 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: each other and co parented for the first few years 31 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: of my life. But my mom was, as my father 32 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 2: puts it, constantly taking off. So we were pinging between 33 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: Iowa and Washington, d c. In Detroit, where her family 34 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: was from. She was deeply involved in the Transcendental Meditation movement. 35 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: So there were these TM centers sort of all over 36 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: the country, and so we would kind of go to 37 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: those for little stints because she was working on projects 38 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: with them. Then at four years old, four going on five, 39 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: I'd moved to California with her, and from that point on. 40 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: Our travel was sort of restricted to California, but we 41 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: moved around a lot up and down the state, to 42 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 2: little towns and cities, and we were just always on 43 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: the move. 44 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: At one point, you describe, I love this sentence you're write. 45 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: My real memory begins in motion. 46 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: I was living with my mom in the Tenderloine in 47 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: San Francisco, was nineteen eighty six by then, which if 48 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: you know anything about the Tenderloin in nineteen eighty six, 49 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: it was a rough and colorful place. It was really 50 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: a triangle of social services. Most people were living on welfare. 51 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: We lived in what they go on SRO, so it's 52 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: a single room occupancy. Most of them don't have kitchens. 53 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: They were converted hotels, so people were really scraping by, 54 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: and we had a very colorful life, you know, living 55 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: in this sort of European style of hotel was sheer 56 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: back through the hallways. Our neighbors were drag queens. They 57 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: were queer day black Asian, straight white like my mother. 58 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: There were many other single parents, mothers in particular, and 59 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: their kids kind of became my friends. So it was 60 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 2: sort of a bright, vivid, grimy world filled with colorful characters. 61 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: We were really living a pretty broke life at that time, 62 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 2: and she had gotten me into this private school called 63 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: White Pony, which was in Walnut Creek, sort of a wealthy, 64 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: primarily white suburb of San Francisco, and we would take 65 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: like two buses and a bart. It was about an 66 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: hour long trip each way to this kindergarten that was 67 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: run by a branch of what they call Sufia's and 68 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 2: Reoriented and it was just this very pristine, calm environment 69 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 2: where everything felt sort of white and washed and everyone 70 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: spoke in low tone. And so every day my mom 71 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: and I would travel between the chaos and clatter of 72 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: the Tenderloin and take this hour long trip to my 73 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: school in the suburbs, and it was it was very calm, 74 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 2: and I kind of settled in there, and then every 75 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: day we would go back to the clatter of the Tenderloin. 76 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: So I think that was the time that I really 77 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: started to like hold this duality. 78 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: And that was just the one year, right because after that, 79 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: your mom, when you're in first grade, you know, said 80 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: something to the effects of we're out of here, We're 81 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: heading north. 82 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: That was just the one year. And so it's interesting 83 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 2: that is so outsized in my memory. But I think 84 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: it was that age, you know, around five years old 85 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: or they say you really start to have concrete memory, 86 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 2: and because it was so full of contrast in life, 87 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: it really stood out. But then yeah, at the end 88 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,119 Speaker 2: of that year, she was pregnant with my little brother 89 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 2: and a friend had told her there was a cosmic 90 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 2: mountain up north, and she said, now doesn't that sound cool? 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: And five six years old, what did I know? So 92 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 2: we were off again. 93 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: Nina and her mom moved to the remote area of 94 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: Siskiyou County, which is halfway between San Francisco and Portland. 95 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: Siskiu is at the foot of Mount Shasta, an active volcano. 96 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: Could there be a more perfect metaphor? Nina's mom has 97 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 1: moved them here to be closer to the mystical mountain 98 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: she's heard so much about. This is not new to Nina, 99 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: her mom putting her spirituality at the forefront of their lives. 100 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: There is something very cloistered about childhood. You just understand 101 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: your life to be the way it is, so I'm 102 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 2: sure there was some of that, but I think being 103 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: born into a transcendental meditation community and it wasn't Camm 104 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: you like in the way that some people might imagine. 105 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: But it was a small town in which people were 106 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: all practicing TM toye a day, and my parents were 107 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: both very united in what they felt was their contribution 108 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: to creating world peace and before so I think, before 109 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: I even remember, that's kind of what I was born into, 110 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: and I'm sure I was surrounded by this sort of language. 111 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: My mother got into tarot and astrology and things like 112 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: channeling very early on. That's part of why she left TM. 113 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: So I think even if I don't remember this language 114 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: consciously much before we got to Mount Shasta, it was 115 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: sort of in me through osmosis, if nothing else. So, 116 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: and she kind of had this great adventurous spirit. And 117 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: much like my life in San Francisco, which felt like 118 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: in a juxtaposition between this gritty, grimy, bright city life 119 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: and the sort of calm, meditative tones of White Pony, 120 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: my mom contained that duality as well. So you know, 121 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: she could kind of like run with the people in 122 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: the street and talk a little shit, but she is 123 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: always reading about the saints and sort of spoke about 124 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: the cosmos and enlightenment and angels in the same sentences. 125 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: In the meantime, Nina's dad remarries a woman named Beth. 126 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: While Nina and her mom live at the base of 127 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: this magical mountain, her dad and Beth end up in 128 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: the hill country in Texas. Living a spiritual life is 129 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: important to her dad too, and he and Beth are 130 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: part of a meditation community. But back at the volcanic rock, 131 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: life goes on for Nina and her mom. Nina's mom 132 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,239 Speaker 1: has another child some years later, Nina's younger brother, Christopher. 133 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: Finances are tight for the family, and Nina's mom, for 134 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: better or worse, is not exactly shy about sharing this 135 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: financial precarity with her daughter. 136 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: It was sort of like, you know, the ticker on 137 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: a news show was just the running tally. She she 138 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: was always working out her finances on little pieces of 139 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: paper at a cafe. And I knew, you know, very 140 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: early on, what each little treat cost us. So I 141 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 2: really learned not to ask for those things, and I 142 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 2: knew that if I if I didn't I received them. 143 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: There could sometimes be blowback because she, like most mothers, 144 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure she wanted to treat me, so 145 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 2: sometimes she might buy a pizzaen set of paying the 146 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: electric Bill, but there was always a fallout for that. 147 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a really arresting moment where she's having trouble 148 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: with a tooth and she just says, well, it's time 149 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: to go to Tijuana because that's that's where you go 150 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: for dentistry. 151 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: Ninety nine dollars root canal. 152 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: And so you were privy to all that, absorbed that 153 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: as a child, and then you had your dad and 154 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: Bess in Texas in this TM community. But it seems 155 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: also in a more day to day stable life than 156 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: your mom's life. 157 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I think you know my dad from what 158 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: I understand, it is own natural procurity at times, and 159 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: they all did because they were very dedicated to this 160 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: movement that they had made the center of their life, 161 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: which was ultimately a movement toward, you know, achieving world peace. 162 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: So no one was rolling in the dough. But the 163 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: life that they eventually built, and as I came into, 164 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 2: you know, being in second, third, fourth, fifth grade, was 165 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: one that was very sort of quiet and stable. They 166 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: lived in a rural sort of subdivision that they had 167 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: all built as a community, and that was the place 168 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: I would say I had the closest to an Americana childhood. 169 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: I mean I had a little bike with the banana 170 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: seat and the streamers. I would write it to my 171 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 2: friend's house. And it was not a wealthy life by 172 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: any means, but it was very comfortable. I mean, it 173 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: felt kind of protected in middle class. After my mom 174 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 2: and I moved to California. Most every summer from I'd 175 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 2: say age five or six through toward the end of 176 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: high school, I would fly out from California and go 177 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: stay with my dad and Beth in Texas for the summer, 178 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 2: maybe a month or so, and then after that I 179 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 2: would fly to his parents' home in Miami for a 180 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: couple of weeks and my grandfather, his father was a 181 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: renowned surgeon, and they lived a very different life. Again, 182 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 2: it wasn't ostentatious, but it was definitely the wealthiest environment 183 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: that I was ever in as a child. 184 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 185 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: When Nina is in the fifth grade, about ten or eleven, 186 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: her mother says to her, I am a walk him. 187 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: Her mother, whose name is Anita, also says something about 188 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: the Anitas Anita one and Anita two. Nina isn't sure 189 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 1: what to make of any of this, what is her 190 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: mom talking about? 191 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: That must have been, you know, the early nineties and 192 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: on OPRAH there was a lot of talk shows doing 193 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: segments on like past life progression, sort of memories of 194 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: abuse emerging. Do you remember this? Yeah? Yeah, So I 195 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: feel like this idea sort of was born of that time. 196 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: So a walk in too, and you can find you know, 197 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: sort of communities online that feel that they are Walking's 198 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: Ruth Montgomery, I think sort of wrote a seminal book 199 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 2: about that, describing what it is a person that feels 200 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: like they are walking. It is a pre agreed upon 201 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: contract that your soul makes with another soul before you're born. 202 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: And that agreement is that at some point in your life, 203 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: when your soul has completed its its tasks or its 204 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: lessons or whatever it came here to do, so to speak, 205 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 2: then your soul will exit the body and this new 206 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: soul will enter it. So you will essentially be outwardly 207 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: the same, but this new soul is in the body 208 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: and it has its own sort of karmic lessons that 209 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: it needs to learn and things that it needs to 210 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: follow out. 211 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: So your mom explains this to you, and what did 212 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: that feel like for you? I mean, your mom was 213 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: essentially saying to you, I look the same, but I'm 214 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: a different person. 215 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean terrifying, Like that is just I felt 216 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 2: like I was in a horror film. You know. It 217 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: just was so spooky. I remember that very viscerally, and 218 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: but just remember having chills and being both scared and 219 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: confused because the way that she presented it to me 220 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 2: was sort of in this calming, assured way, like oh no, 221 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: it's better now, you know. And because she said, you know, 222 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: I was Anita one and now I'm Anita two, and 223 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: looking back, I feel like she was trying to distill 224 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,599 Speaker 2: it into child terms. But that was terrifying, because you 225 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: know what, Anita too is not my mom, who the 226 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: hell is she? But the way she was explaining it 227 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: was a very matter of fact and straightforward and like, 228 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: you know, it's better now. Anita one wasn't doing well 229 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: and Nita two is here, and she's like, you know, 230 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: she has her stuff more together, she's healthier, she's grounded, 231 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: she's going to take better care of you guys. And 232 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: it felt, I don't know, like just a total schism. 233 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: I just didn't know how to make sense of it. 234 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: It was both like really frightening. But then what was 235 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: I to do but just trust this new old person. 236 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: By the time Nina is in the sixth grade, her 237 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: mom has managed to scrape together a little money bought 238 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: a house in a town called Weed, So in one sense, 239 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: life is a bit more settled, But there's an undercurrent, 240 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: something lurking. Up until that point in Nina's life, she's 241 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: been aware of her mother's burns. She knows her mom 242 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: wears turtlenecks no matter what the season, to cover the 243 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: burns on her neck, but Nina's never known exactly what 244 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: happened or why. Now her mom decides would be a 245 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: good time to tell Nina the story of how her 246 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: burns came to be. 247 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: So that conversation, and I remember sitting on the couch 248 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: with my mom, you know, we had these like kind 249 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: of like dusty, old second hand tweed couches, and I 250 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: remember sitting there with her, and she just said, it's 251 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: time for me to tell you the story. And I said, 252 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: the story of what? And she said my burn and 253 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 2: I kind of brushed her off, like you were in 254 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: a fire. 255 00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: You know. 256 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: I knew that I didn't know anything else about it, 257 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: and I had honestly never thought about it, which people 258 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: think seems strange. But as a child, you're like that 259 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: frog in boiling water. You just accept what is. Often 260 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: we don't question these things until much later in life, 261 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: unless something really catalyzes that inquiry. So she just sat 262 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 2: me down, and she just kind of launched into this story, 263 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: which in retrospect was like, oh my god. I didn't 264 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: ask for this story. But she told me how how 265 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: she grew up in Detroit, and she had been a 266 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: student at University of Michigan and after her freshman year, 267 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: I think it was the summer before her sophomore year, 268 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: her and some girlfriends decided to dig a road trip 269 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: to Colorado. You know, it was nineteen seventy one, and 270 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: you know, there was a lot going on politically. The 271 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: Vietnam protests were happening. All these Buddhist monks had been 272 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: self immolating. There was a lot of angst and sort 273 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: of rage in the youth culture, and so they went 274 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: out to Colorado to see what was happening. And it 275 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: was a couple of her college roommates and then an 276 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 2: older woman who at that time I think was like 277 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: twenty five or twenty six, and this older woman named Rayelle. 278 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: I don't know how they were friends. I don't know 279 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: how they were connected, but you know, it was a 280 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: university town, so who knows. So they all take this 281 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: road trip to Colorado, and toward the end of the summer, 282 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: they're coming back and Rail starts telling my mom these 283 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: stories about these men that are after them. And my 284 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: mom is telling me this as I'm sitting on the 285 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 2: couch with her, you know, knees to chess, just listening, 286 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: thinking like, where is this going? You know, what does 287 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: this have to do? Is my mom's burns but kind 288 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: of wrapped. So she tells me that Rail's has this 289 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 2: story that these men are after them. I'm like, oh 290 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,719 Speaker 2: my god, you know, and that most of the other 291 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 2: girls go home. They're kind of getting freaked out by 292 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 2: Rail's stories. But my mom and ray all go back 293 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 2: to ann Arbor and by that time it's the fall, 294 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: but my mom never rear enrolls in school. They're just 295 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: kind of wandering around town and Rayel is getting increasingly 296 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: paranoid and saying, not only are these men after them, 297 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 2: but if they find them, that they're going to torture 298 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: them and eventually kill them, and my mom is getting 299 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 2: really freaked out by this, and she just can't imagine this, 300 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 2: and somehow she starts to believe this too, and then 301 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: Rayelle says, you know, we should kill ourselves. It would 302 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: be better to do that than to be tortured. And so, 303 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: you know, my mom goes along with it, and they're 304 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 2: staying in some kitchen and ann arbor, and you know, 305 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: as my mom is telling me this, I'm thinking like, 306 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: oh my god, who's this woman? Like what do you mean? 307 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: How could you believe this? But I'm also really freaked out. 308 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: And then she says, they found a roll butcher paper 309 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 2: and just wrap themselves in it and let themselves on fire. 310 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: You know, I've come to find out a lot later, 311 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: a lot more about it as an adult, but in 312 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: that moment, that's what she told me, and I just 313 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: was like, you know, shell shocked, could not believe what 314 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: she was telling me. And then by that point, you know, 315 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 2: she'd been telling me the story and her the language 316 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: was getting more frenetic, and I was just kind of 317 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: getting caught up in it, sort of like full body 318 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: chills and kind of like a not in the chest 319 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: kind of sad and scared for my mom and confused 320 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: and wondering who this wild lady was. And by that 321 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 2: point she has kind of a far away look in 322 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 2: her eyes, and then she says, you know, then the 323 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 2: firemen came and they wrapped us in wool blankets. There 324 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: were fire blankets. They wrapped us in fire blankets. It 325 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 2: took us to the ambulance and rushed them to the 326 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: University of Michigan Burn Center. And I think the last 327 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: thing she said was something like, you know, he saved 328 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 2: my life. That fireman saved my life. It was an 329 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: eerie moment. I mean, I just didn't know what to 330 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: do with that. 331 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: I mean, how would you characterize what you felt at 332 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: that time? And I know it's so hard because there 333 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: are layers and layers, but I mean it was mostly 334 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: concern for your mother? Or was it fear for yourself? 335 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: Was it? 336 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, I'm kind of connecting it 337 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: back to Anita one and Anita two in the sense 338 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: of like who are you Innita one? 339 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 2: Anita too, that was felt like the first sort of 340 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: like split. You know, my mother and I had been 341 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: very tight. I think a lot of kids who are 342 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 2: raised by single parents, I mean, maybe mothers in particular. 343 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: I can't speak to it. It might be the same 344 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: for any parent, but especially when you're raised by a 345 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: single parent and you don't have much money, you kind 346 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 2: of become their little partner in crime. You grow up 347 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 2: with them in a way you know much more than 348 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: maybe is healthy or appropriate at times, because they're just 349 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: getting by and you're doing it all with them. They 350 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: don't have the privilege of protecting you from information that 351 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: maybe a broader or more stable or moneyed household might. 352 00:20:54,920 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 2: So I don't begrudge her taking me along for for 353 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: those things. I think some stories she told me were 354 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: too psychologically advanced for the age at which she shared them. 355 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: But the walking thing, yet, that was the first sort 356 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: of glitch, like, oh my mother and I are not 357 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 2: there's a divide between us. And then with this story, 358 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: it really felt like, oh my god, my mom has 359 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: this whole which we all experience at some point, right 360 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 2: when you first start to understand your parents as a person. 361 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: You know that moment comes for us all in different ways. 362 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: But this was something more than that. Not only was 363 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: my mother a person on her own who had lived 364 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: this whole other life, but she'd been involved in something 365 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: that just who could even wrap their mind around that. 366 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: So I think that it created this sort of dissonance 367 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: for me which became a part of my life as 368 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 2: a person, as a thinker, as an artist, in which 369 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,239 Speaker 2: nothing was ever as it seemed. Not only was there 370 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: always something below the surface, there was many, many lays 371 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 2: and that was both sort of intellectually interesting, but as 372 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: a person and as a child, it was totally destabilizing. 373 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: Right, And it's happening as you're entering your teenage years, great, 374 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: like right on the cusp there, and your mom came 375 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: extremely close to dying, which she tells you at that time. 376 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: And this woman, Rayel does die. 377 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: Right, she dies, not that night, but they end up 378 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: in the University of Michigan burn unit in two months 379 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: in November, and two months later around the holidays, Rael dies. 380 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: I'm not exactly sure from what I think it was 381 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: complications in infection or something. And then my mom is 382 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: in the burn unit for six months total before she 383 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: gets out. 384 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: It's a lot, in fact, it's too much. By the 385 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: time she's in high school, Nina distances herself from her 386 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: mother as much as possible. She doesn't exactly run away, 387 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: she just doesn't come home, and this escape from home 388 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: extends to other things, a kind of escape from herself. 389 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: She drinks, does drugs, all the typical high school stuff, 390 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: except Nina is rebelling with more than the usual teenage gusto. 391 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: She's hell bent on self destruction. She's in this phase 392 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: of CouchSurfing at friends homes, relying on the kindness of 393 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: other people's families. When her mother decides that enough is enough, 394 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: she insists that Nina come home, and in a way, 395 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: Nina wants to come home, but once she does, she's 396 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: overtaken by a rage she hasn't allowed herself to feel 397 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: up until now, and she writes her mother a letter 398 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: that begins with the salutation mommy dearest. Now, Mommy Dearest 399 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: was a film, a biopic about Joan Crawford who had 400 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 1: been a nightmarish mother, and Nina and her mom had 401 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: watched this film together, so the phrase is a terrible blow. 402 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: Nina leaves the letter for her mother and goes off 403 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: to school. 404 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: So when I came home from school and I felt, 405 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: you know, this great flood of relief leaving that letter 406 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 2: for her and thinking like, screwed it, you know, and 407 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: finally saying all the things I didn't say, all the 408 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: feelings that I ate, all the ways that I listened 409 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: to you tell me these things I didn't want to hear, 410 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 2: et cetera. Like it all came out and I felt 411 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: very justified. And then I came home from school and 412 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: she didn't say a thing to me, Like half of 413 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: the things on my bedroom walls were gone, and there 414 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: was a pile of boxes on the floor and she 415 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: was packing up my room and she just turned around 416 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: and said, you know, if that's how you feel, you 417 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: can get the fuck out of my house. And I 418 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 2: immediately felt like that sort of you know, righteous feeling 419 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: I had just disappeared, and I just felt like kind 420 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: of a hot flush of shame, and I just thought, 421 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 2: oh my god, what have I done. You know, my 422 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 2: mother is a lot of things, and was a lot 423 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 2: of things, but she was not that woman. And I 424 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: did it to hurt her, and because I was hurt, 425 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: and I did deserve a voice in that conversation, but 426 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 2: it had gone so far that that's how it came out, 427 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: and so she said, you can get out, and I 428 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 2: just felt totally ashamed. And I remember picking up the 429 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 2: boxes and just not saying a word. We didn't say 430 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: anything else to each other. I crammed some boxes in 431 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: the trunk of my car and I went back in 432 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: to get the rest, and as I was sort of 433 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: closing the trunk, I saw one of the boxes flapped open, 434 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: and on the top of you know, a pile of clothes, 435 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 2: there was a copy of the book Mommy Dearest, like 436 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 2: an old, you know, ratty copy from the thrift store 437 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: or something. I don't know if she had it in 438 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 2: her collection or if she went and bought it that day, 439 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: which I would not put past my mother, like if 440 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 2: you want to activate your petty, she will always win. 441 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: The cover was missing, though, So I picked up this 442 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: book and she had ripped the front cover off and 443 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: on the first page, in her big sort of like 444 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: flowering cursive, she had written love Mommy dearest. So she 445 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 2: had signed the book to me. 446 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: Do you still have that? 447 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: Oh? No, God, I wish that could go on the archive. 448 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: You know. So if you ever wanted to fight my 449 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 2: mother with fire, you were not going to win. 450 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: So this becomes the beginning of a rift. It sort 451 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: of gets band aids on it, but it never really 452 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: heals after that. 453 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, it feels strained. I kind of leave 454 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: and I'm living out of a trailer, and then I 455 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: have a temporary situation where I'm living with a friend, 456 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 2: and eventually I moved back home with my mom, but 457 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: you know, for a year or so, and we're kind 458 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: of polite, like things have settled, but it were never 459 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: close like we were again. 460 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting because she was obviously so ill 461 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: and at the same time, the best part of her 462 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: identity was very wrapped up in being a mother, even 463 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: though you know, in like mothering one oh one, she 464 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: failed in all sorts of ways. We were all such 465 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: complicated human beings. She was an incredibly complicated human being. Yeah, 466 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: of course, we'll be right back. Nina goes off to 467 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: college and to Italy for a semester. Abroad, she's only 468 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: a little bit in touch with her mom, whose reality 469 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: is continuing to deteriorate. Nina gets worrying messages from her, 470 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: but as she's finally experiencing some freedom in her adult life, 471 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: she tries not to let her worry get in the way. 472 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: She's in Italy. After all, how much can she really 473 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: do to help her man? Now, When she gets back 474 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: from studying abroad, she sees a blinking green light on 475 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: her message machine. The message is from her mother's friend, March. 476 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 2: March tells me that probably as my flight was returning 477 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: from a semester abroad Italy, my mom has let her house, 478 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 2: the house we were living in Weed, you know where. 479 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 2: She had told me about the first fire, that she 480 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 2: let her house on fire and been charged with fillanny 481 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: arson and is now in county jail. And so I 482 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: obviously freak out and call March back. And I don't 483 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: get much more information than that, but just that, you know, 484 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: my mom had some sort of psychotic break and let 485 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 2: her house on fire. Came to sort of as it 486 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 2: was happening, that's all, a little murky realized she didn't 487 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: want to do this and kind of ran outside and 488 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: called the fire department, and with fire department King, and 489 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: I'm sure what they encountered was must have been a 490 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: woman in great distress, but instead of getting her help, 491 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: she was booked and put in the back of a 492 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: squad car and charged. 493 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: And she had also told your brother Chris to leave 494 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: the house. 495 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: She had, Yeah, I think because I you know, my 496 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: brother was only fifteen at that time, and we weren't 497 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: that close, because you know, I was away in college 498 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: and at that point I was so deeply devoted to 499 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 2: my family and would have done anything for them, but 500 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 2: there was a part of me that was sort of, 501 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: as you said, emotionally disconnected, sort of like fingers in 502 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: the ears, la la la la la. So I could go, 503 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 2: and I had to do that so I could build 504 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: a life of my own. And I think while I 505 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: was in Italy there was some of that denial coming 506 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,959 Speaker 2: into place, with the fact that she was writing these 507 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: emails which were pretty unhinged, and I was still just 508 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: you know, going for weekend trips to Waldough beaut in 509 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 2: a and drinking per secon go and eating cheese, and 510 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: I just didn't want to deal with it, to be 511 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: honest by that point, which sounds harsh, but if you've 512 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: lived a life anything like this, you can probably relate. 513 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: So Marge said, Oh, don't worry. You know, your brother's 514 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: with his friends, and I thought, oh, my god, my brother. 515 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: And I found out later that my mom had him 516 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: go to a friend's house. She just said, I'm not 517 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: feeling good, you need to go to a friend's house. 518 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: So I think in a few days leading up to 519 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: the fire. She was really breaking down, and she was 520 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: aware enough to know, like, you've got to get out 521 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: of your I don't know what I'm going to do. 522 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: So you go to pick Chris up at high school 523 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: so that you can go see your mother. And there's 524 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: a line in your book which I noted, which is 525 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: someone older or wiser should have been driving that day. 526 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: And I actually wrote in the margin I'm in like, 527 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: I mean please, yeah, I mean, I'm end to that. 528 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: You know that there's this fifteen year old and this 529 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: twenty two year old going to see their mother who's 530 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: been put in jail for suspected arson. And where were 531 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: your father and Beth during that period of time, like 532 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: during that crisis as the parents who much more were 533 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: mentally together. 534 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they were, you know, still like physically, 535 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: you know, they were in Texas. I think after I 536 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: got that call, I left. I was in school in 537 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: San Diego. I was at you see, San Diego, and 538 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: I flew home. My final quarter of school I was 539 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: about to graduate, was starting like two days later, So 540 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 2: I email my professors, took a week off, and I 541 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: flew home, borrowed a car from you know, an old 542 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: friend's dad and drove and got my brother and was like, 543 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: we're going to see mom and figure out, you know, 544 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 2: what the hell's going on. It was like visiting hours. 545 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: You know, you had to get there between you know, 546 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 2: four thirty and five thirty years. So we got there. 547 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: We talked to my mom through you know, the sort 548 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: of soup caned phones that they have in jail, and 549 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 2: she was in a jumpsuit and it was just so surreal. 550 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: I mean, my brother hardly said anything, but she said, 551 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 2: you know, I want you to get me a lawyer. 552 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: And this was my mom. You know, She's like, I'm 553 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: not going to get stuck with a public defender. 554 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: The other thing that was very intense about seeing her 555 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: in that orange jumpsuit was that it was maybe the 556 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: first time that you had ever seen your mother, certainly 557 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: in public, with her scars just out in the open. Right. 558 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: She would wear turtlenecks every day, and she bore them 559 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: under dresses, she bore them under a T shirt or 560 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: you know, a button down. She was always covering, you know, 561 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: because her scars went up her neck and they ended 562 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: right at her jaw line, and she actually had the 563 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 2: outer part of her ears had been burned off. Well, 564 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: but if she wore you know, she had sort of 565 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: like a chin lenk bob most of my life. So 566 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: she wore it like that, and then she wore eternal 567 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: neck to cover the neck, and her face was intact, 568 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: and she was quite beautiful and you just would never 569 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: know that. And so in that jumpsuit, her neck was 570 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: totally exposed. And yeah, that was just such a poignant 571 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 2: moment because it was almost as shocking to see my 572 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: mother's neck exposed as it was to see her in jail. 573 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: There were just so many levels of secrecy, I guess, 574 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: but there were so many levels of covering, is what 575 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: I would call it. Because my mom never said, you know, 576 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: my body's a secret, or even this fire is a secret. 577 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 2: She never my mother never asked me to keep a 578 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 2: secret my whole life. But there were so many things 579 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 2: that I just knew were secrets that I internalized. And 580 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: maybe that was because of the environments around me didn't 581 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: seem amenable to hearing those things. I'm not sure. I 582 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: just kind of knew. So as we left the jail, 583 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 2: I thought, okay, I needed to hire a lawyer, and 584 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: her friend Marge had given me a number for a lawyer. 585 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: So I called him and he said, you know, to 586 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: retain me, it'll be three thousand dollars. So I went 587 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 2: to a payphone. My brother was waiting the car. I 588 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 2: went to a payphone and called the only person that 589 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 2: I knew that I could ask for three thousand dollars, 590 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: which was my father. I told him briefly what had happened. 591 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: He was obviously in shock and just asked, if you know, 592 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: we were okay, But I was very to business at 593 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: that point, and I just said, I need this money. 594 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 2: I have to get it by XYZ day. And he 595 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 2: looked at the closest Western Union and said, you know, 596 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: can you be there by seven o'clock? And I went 597 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: and I did it, and he didn't ask any other questions. 598 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 2: So to his credit, he really came through when we 599 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: needed it. But then the fallout of that experience, which 600 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: went on for several months afterward, I was kind of 601 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: on my own in it. To be honest, I hope 602 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: that's a fair memory, because that's how it is in 603 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,479 Speaker 2: my mind. My mom ended up spending three months in jail, 604 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 2: even with the private attorney that we hired, and my 605 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 2: brother was with his best friend's family who were close 606 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 2: to my mom and knew her well, and she trusted 607 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 2: them and they really took him in. And I went 608 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: back to college to finish school, and the. 609 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: Arson investigation found your mom temporarily insane was the phrase. 610 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: That was a phrase. And I didn't meet I was. 611 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 2: I think I was up in California, you know, because 612 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 2: that was at the very top of the state, and 613 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 2: I was at school in San Diego, very bottom of 614 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: the state. So I think I was up there for 615 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 2: a week or so, helping with details and getting my 616 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: brother settled, and I met him. I remember meeting the 617 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 2: insurance inspector at the house, and I don't even remember 618 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 2: what kind of questions he asked, but they're basically trying 619 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 2: to assess whether you were doing this for money, you know, 620 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 2: whether she had burned the house down for insurance money. 621 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 2: So we asked some questions, and then the verdict came back, 622 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 2: and he went been met with her in the jail 623 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 2: and you know, interviewed her, and the verdict came back 624 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 2: temporarily insane. So they awarded a full money to rebuild 625 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 2: the house, which was a sort of twisted blessing, you know. 626 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, and I imagine it must have been so surreal, 627 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: like the way you describe it to You know that 628 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: this house which was the sight of so much, and 629 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 1: which you know had burned to cinders, then being rebuilt 630 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: in this kind of everything new, you know, like your 631 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: mother now had like her own meditation room. Right a 632 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: week before Nina's twenty fourth birthday, her mother dies suddenly 633 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: of a pulmonary embolism. Her death, even though foreshadowed in 634 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: all sorts of ways by her life, is shocking, and 635 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: Nina is at such a tender age on the cusp 636 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: of adulthood. As she goes through her mother's things, Nina 637 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: stumbles upon her grandfather's journal, which contains writing about their 638 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: shared family history, particularly the time her mother set herself 639 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: on fire. This time, instead of turning away, Nina leans in. 640 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: She's ready in a sense to know the secrets she 641 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: has kept from herself, and the way that tragedy when 642 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: it comes, can spread like a virus or a fire, 643 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: one terrible thing leading to the next and to the next. 644 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: So what did you find when you did begin to 645 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: look up everything that you could about your mother's story. 646 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 2: With that journal? I was or reading that and somehow 647 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 2: feeling connected to my grandfather and even imagining my uncle 648 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: being there across time. I kind of I wanted to 649 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: go back to that time, and I wanted to see 650 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 2: the story for myself because everything I had ever known 651 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 2: about this was just funneled directly from my mother to me, 652 00:37:58,360 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 2: and I had never talked to my dad about it. 653 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: I had never talked to anyone else about this, including 654 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: my little brother. So I was just hungry for something grounding, 655 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 2: like some real information about this. So I went home 656 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: to Portland and I googled my mom, which I mean 657 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: Google didn't exist when when you know, I was first 658 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: hearing these stories, and it was something that back to 659 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 2: the frog and boiling water thing, I had just never 660 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 2: thought of. But with my mother gone, there was sort 661 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 2: of like this this hole in the time space continuum 662 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 2: for me, and it just felt like all these new 663 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 2: ideas and possibilities sorted pouring out and I just thought, oh, 664 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: I have to research and explore this on my own. 665 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 2: So I remember being my apartment and googling my mom's name, 666 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 2: and it was just all these articles came up from 667 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 2: all over the country. I mean some of them were 668 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 2: smaller or bigger, but there was a piece in the 669 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 2: New York Times about the fire. There was something in 670 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 2: you know, the Frisno newspapers. There was coverage of the 671 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 2: fire from all over the country, and you know, they 672 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 2: were calling them human torches and quoting one of the 673 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 2: girls who said to another in the ambulance as they 674 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: were holding their hands on the way to the burning unit, like, 675 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 2: isn't it lovely to die together? I mean, it was 676 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 2: just really arresting seeing all that on the screen. For 677 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 2: some reason, it really concretized. The whole thing for me 678 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 2: was that when. 679 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: You began to find your way into writing about it. 680 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,879 Speaker 2: I was twenty four. Then I really didn't start writing 681 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: about this until I was almost thirty, and I had 682 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 2: gone through a big breakup someone that I was with 683 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 2: for years, and I was living on my own for 684 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 2: the first time, and I had done all this research 685 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 2: on it when I first found that journal and was 686 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 2: reading the articles in the newspaper, and I had a 687 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,959 Speaker 2: bunch of my mom's journals too, and I was reading 688 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 2: them and really getting into her psyche and maybe how 689 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 2: ill she had been at the end, and it was 690 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 2: it kind of consumed my life for a while. But 691 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: then I tucked it ou and I went back to 692 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 2: trying to just live and make my life. And it 693 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 2: wasn't until I went through a big breakup and moved 694 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: out into an apartment on my own. I think I 695 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 2: was like twenty nine by then that I really started 696 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 2: to try to reckon with all these things that had happened. 697 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 2: So it wasn't just oh, this is the information, this 698 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: is a story that happened to my mother. It was like, well, 699 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 2: what happened to me? And it wasn't until I was 700 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 2: living in my first little apartment of my own, and 701 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 2: you know, I was like doing the artist's way and 702 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 2: starting to read self help books, which I had always 703 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: avoided like the plague before, you know, growing up with 704 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 2: like a very new age mother. I was just like, oh, god, whatever. 705 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 2: But I sat down one morning. I had this old 706 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 2: typewriter that a friend had left me, and I started 707 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 2: just writing anything I could think of, like stories, scenarios, scenes, 708 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 2: character just all these moments from my life that I 709 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 2: had never really processed. I had just sort of lived 710 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 2: through and survived and kept it moving. So I really 711 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 2: didn't start to ask that what happened to me until 712 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 2: I put it down on paper and for one year, 713 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: every morning I just wrote and wrote, wrote, And then 714 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 2: at the end of the year, I had like a 715 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 2: stack of three hundred pages. I mean it was crude 716 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 2: and wild and all over the place. But I sat 717 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 2: down on my couch and I read the stack of 718 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 2: pages from front to back. And that was an out 719 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 2: of body experience. When I tell you that reading those 720 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 2: pages was like reading the story of someone else's life, 721 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 2: I mean I just thought, where was I How could 722 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 2: I have been? You know, my mother was descending into madness, 723 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 2: and that I was over here worried about like do 724 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 2: I look cute in these genes? And does this guy 725 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 2: like me? It just it was really stark to see 726 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,399 Speaker 2: it on paper. Eventually, I think then the real work 727 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 2: of the book and where I came out the other 728 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 2: end was forgiving myself for that, forgiving myself and my 729 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,800 Speaker 2: mother and understanding that we were all doing what we 730 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 2: could to live. 731 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, it strikes me when you said that 732 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 1: about the writer's way and avoiding self help books and 733 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: all the rest, is that there's another sentence from your 734 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: book that struck me, which is, in a way, my 735 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: mother's beliefs stole faith from me and it seems to 736 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: use the word faith really loosely, like you needed to 737 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: reclaim that for yourself, and writing is an act of faith. 738 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 1: Writing every day, writing forward, not knowing where it's taking you, 739 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: is making something out of nothing, and that requires something 740 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: like faith. And in a way, it seems like that 741 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: knitted back together for you, like something that had been 742 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: taken from you or just simply not available to you 743 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: because there was no room for it to be. 744 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 2: No. I love that. I really feel like I reconstituted 745 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 2: myself in the process of writing that story, and not 746 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 2: just looking at what had happened and how it had 747 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 2: affected me, but also who my mother was and what 748 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: was and what was not allowed her or a woman 749 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 2: like her in the culture in which we live, and 750 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 2: so that really helped me understand her in context as well. 751 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: Here's Nina reading one last passage from Love is a 752 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 1: burning thing. 753 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 2: Maybe those of us compelled to tell fractured family stories 754 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 2: are the ones who feel unfinished. Maybe we take the 755 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 2: ancestors into us and live out all possible lives, wandering 756 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 2: down alleyways not ours, just to tie up storylines in 757 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 2: the gap left by my mother's family, the Detroit people, 758 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 2: the Canadians, the Catholic and the quebec Qua, the Hockey 759 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 2: Lovers and Crown Royals, the La Bat Blues. I emerge 760 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 2: as mother, father, brother's sister. I am the metallurgist, transforming 761 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 2: alloy into cars, the alchemists, rendering mercury to gold. I 762 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 2: am perfection and its destruction. I am flash over the 763 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 2: whole damn room combusting. I am splitting this town. I 764 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 2: am blowing this joint. I am a woman on the run, 765 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 2: a neon flash. If you blink, we carry all of 766 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 2: the story. See we are the whole scene. 767 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly z Acur 768 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 769 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 770 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 771 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 772 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 773 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 774 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 775 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 776 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 777 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows,