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Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld, we are continuing our series

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Speaker 1: on artificial intelligence, and on this episode we're going to

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Speaker 1: be focusing on public policy. What should lawmakers know about

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Speaker 1: AI and what should be done to moderate or legislative

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Speaker 1: here to have this discussion. I'm really pleased to welcome

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Speaker 1: my guest, Congressman Jay Obernalti, who represents California's twenty third

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Speaker 1: congressional district. He holds a master's degree from UCLA in

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence. As one of the leading voices in the

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Speaker 1: House on proposed legislation, Jay, welcome and thank you for

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Speaker 1: joining me on Newtsworld.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, nud it's great to see you.

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Speaker 1: Frankly, it's a pleasant surprise to realize that in a

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Speaker 1: rapidly evolving field like this, we have a member who

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Speaker 1: has the level of knowledge you do. First of all,

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Speaker 1: earning a bachelor's degree in engineering and applied science from

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Speaker 1: Caltech in itself is pretty impressive, and then a master's

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Speaker 1: degree in artificial intelligence from UCLA. You started a video

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Speaker 1: game development company called Farside Studios. Then you elected to

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Speaker 1: Big Bear City Council where you served as mayor, then

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Speaker 1: California State Legislature and now you're a member of Congress.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever think that you'd bring together sort of

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Speaker 1: the world of artificial intelligence and political capability?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I never thought that this would be my future

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Speaker 2: at all. In fact, if you had even suggested to

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Speaker 2: me ten years ago that I would be sating in Congress,

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Speaker 2: I would say you were crazy. I just got into

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Speaker 2: public service through a desire to serve my community, and

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Speaker 2: one thing led to another. But I'll tell you it's

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Speaker 2: been simultaneously the hardest job I've ever done, but also

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Speaker 2: the most rewarding.

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Speaker 1: Speaker McCarthy has been working to increase the awareness of

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, and I think two weeks ago had a

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Speaker 1: bipartisan briefing from MIT, just trying to bring people up

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Speaker 1: to speed. What's your view of how really important artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence is going to be as we look at the future.

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Speaker 2: I think it's going to be critically important. It's going

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Speaker 2: to be an inflection point in the development of human civilization,

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Speaker 2: every bit as important as the invention of the printing press,

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Speaker 2: or the industrial revolution or the invention of the Internet.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be critical. And I think that in general,

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Speaker 2: although I think that there's a lot of hesitation and

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Speaker 2: a lot of fear, and there's no denying that it's

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Speaker 2: going to be disruptile. I think in general, it's going

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Speaker 2: to be overwhelmingly positive. We're going to look back on

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Speaker 2: the advent of AI as something that was empowering to humans,

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Speaker 2: not something that replaced them.

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Speaker 1: Can you just put in simple, everyday terms, what is

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence and what is its core capability that makes

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Speaker 1: it so potentially impactful.

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Speaker 2: Let me use terms that are not technical and more approachable,

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Speaker 2: because there are technical definitions of what constitutes AI and

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Speaker 2: what differentiates it from traditional computer software. But rather than

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Speaker 2: going there, let's just broadly define artificial intelligence as something

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Speaker 2: that allows a computer to do a task that before

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Speaker 2: now could only be done by human and that makes

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Speaker 2: the computer look and seem very human like. So I

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Speaker 2: think that that's a definition that people will find more

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Speaker 2: approachable and that everyone can relate to. So, if you

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Speaker 2: talk about what AI is going to be good at,

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Speaker 2: it's going to automate a lot of tasks that right

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Speaker 2: now require a huge input of human capability and manpower,

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Speaker 2: and it's going to do it in ways that empower

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Speaker 2: people and allow them to spend that labor on higher

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Speaker 2: order usage I'll give you an example something that is

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Speaker 2: already happening. Now. This is a short term benefit of AI.

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Speaker 2: AI is starting to be used for the automated reading

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Speaker 2: of medical procedures like CT scans, And as it turns out,

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Speaker 2: artificial intelligence can read CT scan in seconds and can

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Speaker 2: detect tumors that are just forming, that are so small

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Speaker 2: that a human radiologist would not even see them forming yet.

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Speaker 2: So from a patient standpoint, you get your CT scan

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Speaker 2: read more quickly, less expensively, and more accurately, and you

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Speaker 2: have this added capability of detecting cancer long before any

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Speaker 2: symptoms show up, which, as I'm sure you know, greatly

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Speaker 2: improves the outlook for treating that cancer if you've caught

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Speaker 2: it early. So that's a huge win for human civilization.

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Speaker 2: And that's just one tiny facet of what AI is

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Speaker 2: going to do, and that's today, that's not ten years

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Speaker 2: from a happening.

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Speaker 1: Now. How much of that can be done at long distance,

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Speaker 1: so that, for example, rural areas could actually access world

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Speaker 1: class analytics.

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Speaker 2: As you point out, one of its benefits is that

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Speaker 2: where a rural hospital, for example, my hometown of Big

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Speaker 2: Bear Lake, which is a little mountain ski town, whereas

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Speaker 2: you would have had to send that off and maybe

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Speaker 2: you wait twenty four hours for a human radiologist to

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Speaker 2: read it somewhere else because there's not a radiologist on staff.

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Speaker 2: This could be done in minutes and you'll have the

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Speaker 2: result right now.

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Speaker 1: I mean. The other area that it seems to me

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Speaker 1: is emerging very rapidly, as in defense. I've been noticing,

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Speaker 1: for example, that the Ukrainians are now using drones and

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Speaker 1: other assets in ways that are virtually revolutionary, creating a

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Speaker 1: sort of pinpointable battlefield and which requires a huge amount

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Speaker 1: of analytic capability. And the Israelis have developed now they're

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Speaker 1: Aaron dome which analyzes in real time ballistic missile flights

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Speaker 1: and determines which ones matter, ignores the others, and just

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Speaker 1: focuses all the defense efforts directly against the greatest threat.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in that sense, isn't the speed and the

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Speaker 1: accuracy of artificial intelligence going to lead to virtually a

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Speaker 1: revolution in the art of war?

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Speaker 2: I think you're right, and I also think that it

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Speaker 2: might lead to deterrence in the same way that the

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Speaker 2: development of nuclear weapons led to de terrence. You know,

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Speaker 2: when we live in a world where the thought of

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Speaker 2: war is so terrible that it's something that everyone tries

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Speaker 2: to avoid at all costs. It incentivizes everyone to come

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Speaker 2: up with solutions other than war, and as we get

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Speaker 2: better and better at doing things like delivering drone based weaponry,

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Speaker 2: I think that that will be even more true.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is the appropriate role of Congress

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Speaker 1: in dealing with this and what is it that members

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Speaker 1: of Congress should know about the emergence of artificial intelligence?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm a firm believer that the role of government

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Speaker 2: is constitutionally limited, and especially in a society that values

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Speaker 2: free markets the way that ours does, I think that

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Speaker 2: you have to be very deliberate when you insert government

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Speaker 2: into regulation of an industry. So, to me, we have

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Speaker 2: to ask ourselves, is this an industry that needs to

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Speaker 2: be read related and if so, what should the role

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Speaker 2: of the federal government be in creating that regulation. I

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Speaker 2: think it's pretty clear that in addition to the potential

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Speaker 2: upsides of AI, there are also substantial risks and substantial

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Speaker 2: consumer harms that potentially need to be mitigated, and that

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Speaker 2: to me, is a good reason for government regulation. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you've got a list of potential harms and you

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Speaker 2: want an act consumer protection, then you need to create

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Speaker 2: a regulatatory framework to address those issues. But I also

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Speaker 2: think it's very important that we not go too far.

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Speaker 2: If you look at what the European Union has been

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Speaker 2: doing recently in creating a huge new government bureaucracy to

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Speaker 2: essentially control who's allowed to develop a news AI and

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Speaker 2: who is not, I think that that would be a

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Speaker 2: dangerous path for us to take, particularly because it empowers

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Speaker 2: bureaucracy over the elected representatives of the people, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's an abdication of our responsibility as legislators. If

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Speaker 2: we empower the executive branch agencies and our clear about

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Speaker 2: what we're trying to regulate and how we want to do.

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Speaker 1: It, shouldn't the regulatory approach focus on outcomes rather than processes.

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Speaker 1: That is, if I'm using AI to cheat you, or

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Speaker 1: to harass you, or to do something, then I'm responsible,

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Speaker 1: not the AI system. We don't hold cars accountable for accidents,

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Speaker 1: for example, we hold drivers accountable, and we haven't tried

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Speaker 1: to regulate that nobody should be allowed to drive because

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Speaker 1: frol you might have be in a wreck, we'd all

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Speaker 1: be back on horses. So to what extent can you

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Speaker 1: focus on the negative outcomes and making them illegal rather

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Speaker 1: than focusing on the process.

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Speaker 2: I think it's critical to do that, and if you

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Speaker 2: look at some of the debate around AI that has

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Speaker 2: occurred so far, I think that you realize how important

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Speaker 2: that is. So some of the negative outcomes of AI

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Speaker 2: so far have been widely publicized. One of them is that,

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Speaker 2: as it turns out, the early generation of AI empowered

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Speaker 2: facial recognition did not recognize African American faces nearly as

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Speaker 2: well as Caucasian faces, and that was a factor of

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Speaker 2: the way that that AI algorithm was trained. It was unintentional,

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Speaker 2: but it was verifiable. And then lately there has been

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Speaker 2: a lot of controversy over the use of AI to

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Speaker 2: automatically screen resumes before a human has to look at them,

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Speaker 2: and it's been proven in the early generation of that

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Speaker 2: AI that you can detect some bias against certain socioeconomic

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Speaker 2: classes of people. But as you say, if you focus

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Speaker 2: on the outcome and not the tool, then regulation becomes

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Speaker 2: very easy because we already have laws that prohibit discrimination

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Speaker 2: on the basis of things like skin color, or ethnic

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Speaker 2: background or socioeconomic background. So it doesn't matter whether or

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Speaker 2: not you use AI to do that. If it's done intentionally,

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Speaker 2: it's already against the law, so we don't need a

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Speaker 2: new regulatory framework to guard against those harms.

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Speaker 1: dot com slash book. To what extent do you think

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Speaker 1: that AI will weakend jobs and to what extent will

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Speaker 1: actually create a whole new generation of jobs.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's going to be very economically disruptive.

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Speaker 2: And if you look at throughout human history the different

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Speaker 2: technological revolutions that have occurred, they have all been disruptive.

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Speaker 2: In fact, we use a word in the English language

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Speaker 2: called Luddite to describe someone who's resistant to the advancement

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Speaker 2: of technology, and that comes from pre Industrial Revolution England,

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Speaker 2: where a group of textile workers burned the new automated

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Speaker 2: textile looms in protest of the fact that they were

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Speaker 2: going to take their jobs away. Those were the Luddites,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we still talk about them because of

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Speaker 2: the action that they took. Looking back on that though,

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Speaker 2: no one can deny that those textile mills were a

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Speaker 2: good thing for humanity. I mean, it was the first

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Speaker 2: time that high quality cloth garments were available to middle

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Speaker 2: income people, the first time ever. So that's great for

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Speaker 2: most of humanity, not so great for textile workers. And

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Speaker 2: you're going to see exactly the same thing happen with AI.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be overwhelmingly a good thing because it's

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Speaker 2: going to free up human labor for higher order uses,

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Speaker 2: but it's going to be disruptive to the people who

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Speaker 2: work in the industries that are displaced.

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Speaker 1: Does that become a challenge for us in helping people

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Speaker 1: make the transition or is it part of a natural process.

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Speaker 2: I think both. But I think government will have a

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Speaker 2: role to play not only in retraining people who have

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Speaker 2: seen this disruption happen, but also in informing young people

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Speaker 2: as to what a productive life in twenty second century

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Speaker 2: America looks like. In particular, I think we're going to

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Speaker 2: have to completely re examine our approach to education. We

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Speaker 2: have been stuck in this one hundred year old model

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Speaker 2: where we assume that people at the beginning of their

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Speaker 2: lives go to school, acquire an education, get a degree,

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Speaker 2: and then have a career that relies on that education

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Speaker 2: that can productively make a living for them for fifty

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Speaker 2: sixty seven years. I think that that is definitely going

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Speaker 2: to have to be a thing of the past because

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Speaker 2: the pace of technology is changing so quickly. I think

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Speaker 2: that we're going to have to embrace a future where

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Speaker 2: everyone has to be a proponent of lifelong education, where

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Speaker 2: instead of being educated at the beginning of our lives,

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Speaker 2: we make a commitment to remaining educated our entire lives,

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Speaker 2: and AI can actually help us with that. That's one

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Speaker 2: of the things AI is very good at is creating

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Speaker 2: a personalized approach to the access of information, which is

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Speaker 2: what education is. So I actually think AI will be

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Speaker 2: disruptive in that way, but the AI will be essentially

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Speaker 2: very beneficial.

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Speaker 1: I spend a fair amount of time on how bad,

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Speaker 1: for example, some of the big inner city schools are.

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Speaker 1: But in a sense you have me sort of opening

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Speaker 1: my mind to the concept that maybe one of the

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Speaker 1: requirements of the next generation is to develop the ability

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Speaker 1: for personalized, constant learning. So people who might well have

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Speaker 1: gone to a terrible school there are twenty three schools

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Speaker 1: in Baltimore City, for example, in which not a single

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Speaker 1: person can do math. That doesn't mean that the rest

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Speaker 1: of their life they can't do math. It may mean

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Speaker 1: that they have to learn it at twenty or twenty

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Speaker 1: one or twenty two, and that AI might well become

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Speaker 1: sort of a personal coach in a way that would

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Speaker 1: have been impossible thirty years ago.

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Speaker 2: I think that's absolutely right. But key to that whole

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Speaker 2: situation is a desire to learn math, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's what AI is going to empower. We're going to

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Speaker 2: in the future need to teach young people that they

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Speaker 2: can learn, and teach young people how to learn, and

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Speaker 2: then for the rest of their lives they'll be empowered

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Speaker 2: to learn whatever it is they want to learn. And

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Speaker 2: I actually think that's a really optimistic future, you know,

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Speaker 2: full of citizens who are in places that they are

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Speaker 2: because they choose to be and because they want to be.

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Speaker 1: Some people have suggested to me that the great danger

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Speaker 1: from artificial intelligence isn't scenes like the Terminator, you know,

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Speaker 1: where the artificial intelligence systems have risen in rebellion, but

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Speaker 1: in fact the power that artificial intelligence gives a utilitarian

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Speaker 1: system like China to be able to literally track everybody

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Speaker 1: in real time at a level of detail that we

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Speaker 1: would have thought impossible. To what extent is that threat

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Speaker 1: to freedom from the sheer power that the state acquires

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Speaker 1: if it's not controlled and carefully regulated.

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Speaker 2: No, I think it's a very serious concern, and I

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Speaker 2: think we need to take it seriously. One of the

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Speaker 2: things that I often talk about in the context of

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Speaker 2: the regulation of AI is that, in addition to putting guardrails,

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Speaker 2: around industry, which is what most people think of when

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Speaker 2: they talk about regulation. We also need to put guard

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Speaker 2: rails around government because of the point that you raised.

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Speaker 2: You look at the way that AI is already being

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Speaker 2: used in countries like China to enact what is essentially

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Speaker 2: the world's largest surveillance state, where personal information about people

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Speaker 2: is aggregated and put together in very dystopian ways to

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Speaker 2: create things like government loyalty predictions and scores, and to

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Speaker 2: condition people's access to resources on their loyalty to the government.

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Speaker 2: That's something that we would never want to have happen here,

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Speaker 2: but we can take steps in the short term to

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Speaker 2: prevent that. And that's one of the things that I'm

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Speaker 2: a firm believer in is that in the short term,

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Speaker 2: the best way of guarding against the malicious uses of

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Speaker 2: AI is to create a federal regulatory framework on the

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Speaker 2: accumulation of personal digital data. That's something that we have

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Speaker 2: relegated to the states before now, and I think that

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Speaker 2: it's very dangerous to allow that to continue. I think

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Speaker 2: that we need to keep track of what people are

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Speaker 2: allowed to collect about other people and store, because AI

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Speaker 2: is really good at taking this aggregated personal digital data

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Speaker 2: and putting it together to create a behavioral model that

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Speaker 2: can make eerily accurate predictions of what people will do

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Speaker 2: in the future, and then use that information to influence

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Speaker 2: that behavior. We have companies that are already using AI

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Speaker 2: that way. That's something that I don't think is not beneficial.

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Speaker 2: It could be used in ways like the influence of

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Speaker 2: public opinion, you know, ways that are very corrosive to

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Speaker 2: a democracy.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about TikTok and the

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Speaker 1: whole concern that TikTok actually combine sort of mass public

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Speaker 1: access with the potential for analysis and manipulation through artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence systems. I mean, to what extent is that a

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Speaker 1: real danger?

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Speaker 2: I think it is a real danger. Which is not

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Speaker 2: to say that I'm a proponent of banning TikTok. That's

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Speaker 2: a debate we've been having in Congress and we're going

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Speaker 2: to continue to have. But as you know, we had

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Speaker 2: a hearing recently where we had the pre of TikTok

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Speaker 2: testify and we asked him questions about the data that

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Speaker 2: TikTok is collecting and what they're doing with it. But

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Speaker 2: the danger there is in allowing a foreign adversary to

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Speaker 2: have access to the private digital data of millions of Americans.

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Speaker 2: Does that give potential foreign adversaries the power to do

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Speaker 2: things like interferer in our elections, influence public opinion, spread

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Speaker 2: disinformation And the answer to that question is very clearly yes,

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Speaker 2: which is why we need to pay more attention to

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Speaker 2: the data that people are allowed to collect and what

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Speaker 2: they're allowed to do with it.

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Speaker 1: Should we try to find a way to have TikTok

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Speaker 1: sold in effect to an American company or some kind

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Speaker 1: of barrier, and is there any way to stop that

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Speaker 1: data from going to China?

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Speaker 2: I ask some very detailed technical questions about exactly that

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Speaker 2: in our hearing with the president of TikTok a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago, and I emerged from that conversation with the

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Speaker 2: thought that no, it is not possible to prevent that

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Speaker 2: from occurring. So instead, I think what we need to

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Speaker 2: focus on is enacting privacy legislation that prevents information like

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Speaker 2: that from being collected in the first place, and that

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Speaker 2: will solve the problem not just for TikTok, but for

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Speaker 2: any malicious player that is trying to accumulate this data

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Speaker 2: and use it for ways that are not good for

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Speaker 2: our society.

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Speaker 1: So does that become sort of the equivalent of Hippa

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Speaker 1: for all personal data.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And what we're talking about is a framework

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Speaker 2: that actually encapsulates HIPPA. So we want to create one

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Speaker 2: level digital playing field for everyone with a set of

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Speaker 2: rules that everyone knows and understands, including for healthcare data.

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Speaker 1: com slash book. What are the countries of the most

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Speaker 1: advanced in developing artificial intelligence capabilities?

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Speaker 2: Well, undeniably, the United States is in the lead right now.

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Speaker 2: China is right behind US. China passed the United States

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Speaker 2: two years ago in the number of PhDs in computer science.

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Speaker 2: It was graduating every year and this year it will

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Speaker 2: graduate double the number of PhDs in computer science. So China.

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Speaker 2: This is an industry that China has recognized as representative

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Speaker 2: of the future, and this is something that they're investing

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Speaker 2: heavily in.

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Speaker 1: I get the impression from you and others that the

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Speaker 1: Europeans in a sense are sort of artificially taking themselves

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Speaker 1: out of the game because they're regulatory structure as such

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Speaker 1: that it's unlikely that they're going to be the most

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Speaker 1: innovative country system since their collection of countries. Does that

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Speaker 1: basically limit the primary competition to the US and China

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Speaker 1: or are the other players who potentially have this kind

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Speaker 1: of capability.

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Speaker 2: I think there are some very smart people in Europe,

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Speaker 2: and they certainly continue to develop AI. But I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you in general, the forces that are arrayed against the

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Speaker 2: deployment of AI, even in ways that are beneficial to

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Speaker 2: human society, are the ones that fear disruption. You know,

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Speaker 2: we were talking about a few minutes ago how AI

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Speaker 2: enables the automated reading of CT scans. That's great for

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Speaker 2: everybody except the radiologists. So what would be dangerous is

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Speaker 2: to allow the radiologists to get together and say you're

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Speaker 2: not allowed to develop AI because we want to keep

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Speaker 2: our jobs. That's what the Luddites were doing. You could

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Speaker 2: understand their point of view, but as a government, it's

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Speaker 2: very dangerous to give into that kind of thinking because

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Speaker 2: it denies the millions and millions of people that aren't

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Speaker 2: radiologists the benefits of that new technology. So I think

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Speaker 2: that Europe is particularly susceptible to that kind of subversion

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Speaker 2: just because of the political system that they have.

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Speaker 1: Just a few weeks ago, you introduced the Artificial Intelligence

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Speaker 1: for National Security Act. What are you trying to accomplish

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Speaker 1: with that and why do you think it's important.

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Speaker 2: Well, what we're trying to enable is the ability for

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Speaker 2: the Department of Defense to use advanced AI tools in

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Speaker 2: defending against things like cyber attacks from foreign adversaries. As

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Speaker 2: it turns out, AI is often the best defense against

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Speaker 2: the use of AI to try and disrupt the systems

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Speaker 2: of an adversary. So we want to make sure that

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Speaker 2: the DoD had the precurement authority to acquire these tools

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Speaker 2: as they've become available, and that's what the purpose of

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Speaker 2: that act is.

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Speaker 1: Close And I just came back from a week in

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Speaker 1: soul Carea. We had several briefings that indicated that North

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Speaker 1: Korea gets around many of the sanctions because through cybercrime,

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Speaker 1: they're making about a billion two hundred million dollars a

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Speaker 1: year to finance our system. Shouldn't there be some way

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Speaker 1: that NSA and others could use artificial intelligence to try

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Speaker 1: to close off that whole model of income through theft.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think you're absolutely right, although we will never

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Speaker 2: succeed in closing off all of those avenues because one

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Speaker 2: of the ways that countries like North Korea make that

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Speaker 2: income is through extortion, where they encrypt people's digital data

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Speaker 2: and then charge them for the key to unlock it.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that happens because a single employee might

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Speaker 2: have clicked on a malicious link in an email that

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Speaker 2: they shouldn't have opened. That's not something that AI can

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Speaker 2: help you guard against. It's something that's going to require

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Speaker 2: better education and some better digital and computer skills from

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Speaker 2: our workforce. But certainly things like denial of service attacks

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Speaker 2: where you're trying to take down a website, AI can

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Speaker 2: be very sophisticated and useful in detecting a pattern of

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Speaker 2: usage that is an attack and not legitimate use.

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Speaker 1: The other thing I'm going to ask you about was

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Speaker 1: in February you introduced Protecting against Compromised Internet of Things

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Speaker 1: Technology Act. First, all I have to say I'm very

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Speaker 1: impressed that you've obviously mastered the art of legislating very quickly.

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Speaker 1: What are you trying to achieve with this bill on

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Speaker 1: protecting against comp Promised Internet of Things?

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Speaker 2: Well, we have federal legislation that protects against the malicious

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Speaker 2: insertion of foreign components into things like telecommunications equipment. But

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Speaker 2: we are seeing a proliferation of Internet enabled devices that

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Speaker 2: have really permeated every aspect of the way that we

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Speaker 2: live our lives. Our refrigerator might tell us that we're

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Speaker 2: out of milk. We've got a toaster that tells us

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Speaker 2: when the toast is done, the doorbell rings, and we

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Speaker 2: have a video of someone even though we're a thousand

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Speaker 2: miles away. So all of these we call that the

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Speaker 2: Internet of things, and we really don't have a federal

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Speaker 2: network capable of detecting when a malicious actor might be

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Speaker 2: able to use that in ways that are contrary to

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Speaker 2: not only data privacy but also our national security. So

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Speaker 2: that's what this bill does, is to establish that list

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Speaker 2: of bad actors and to prohibit the use of those

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Speaker 2: components in IoT devices.

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Speaker 1: Let me say, verus all, how impressed I am with

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Speaker 1: your knowledge but also with your ability to provide leadership

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Speaker 1: in the legislative branch. I think it's just a remarkable

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Speaker 1: asset for the United States to have somebody of your

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Speaker 1: knowledge and your technical background in a position to influence

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Speaker 1: and be part of the public policy debate. And I

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Speaker 1: know how extraordinarily busy you guys are right now, so

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Speaker 1: I'm doubly grateful to you personally for having taken the

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Speaker 1: time to help educate the rest of us, and I

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Speaker 1: look forward very much to chatting with you in the

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Speaker 1: future as this continues to evolve.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, dut I very much. Enjoyed our discussion

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Speaker 2: and yes, let's absolutely do it again.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Congressman Jay Obernalty. You can

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Speaker 1: learn more about artificial intelligence and public policy on our

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Speaker 1: show page at newsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by

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00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: Gainish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan.

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00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show

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00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team

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Speaker 1: at Gaingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I

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00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us

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Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others

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Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of

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Speaker 1: Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly columns

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00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: at gingristhree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich.

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Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.