Speaker 1: Dear let you know USA listener.
Speaker 2: Before we start, you should know that if you want
Speaker 2: to listen to this episode, add free just join and
Speaker 2: you can join for as little as seven dollars a month.
Speaker 2: Joining also gets you behind the scenes access and yes,
Speaker 2: some cheesemay. So click the link in the episode description
Speaker 2: and after you do that, then click play.
Speaker 1: Let's go to the show.
Speaker 2: Well, Hello, Hello, Hello, misan Halita's cheesebabe.
Speaker 1: I hope you're ready and rested for your next assignment.
Speaker 3: Of course, we were literally born ready for this.
Speaker 2: Well that's good to know, because I think this Cheesemay
Speaker 2: conversation is going to take.
Speaker 1: Us on a wild cry.
Speaker 2: All right, Miss Gueida's Elisa and Monica, you are the
Speaker 2: angels of cheeseme a la Charlie's Angels.
Speaker 1: Now, off you go, my little angels of cheese May.
Speaker 1: From Futuro Media. It's Latino USA. I'm marieo Hosa.
Speaker 2: Today Cheese Me a month's long investigation into the ancestral
Speaker 2: language of gossom, why we love cheese May, why we're
Speaker 2: ashamed of it, and why we won't stop making cheese
Speaker 2: May anyway. Now we're gonna go on an exploration of
Speaker 2: an ancient language that is actually very familiar to many
Speaker 2: of you. Cheese Me producers Monica Morales Garcia and Elisa
Speaker 2: Mayena dug up the history of cheeseme and found an
Speaker 2: essential part of their identities. Here's the story which we
Speaker 2: originally brought to you in twenty twenty two. And Esa
Speaker 2: heads up, there's some explicit language in this episode. So
Speaker 2: I'm here speaking with our Latino USA fellows, Elisa Bayena
Speaker 2: and Monica Moreles Garcia, and I think I have a
Speaker 2: pretty good idea as to why you brought me here today.
Speaker 1: I think it has to do with it.
Speaker 4: Jeez me, how did you know?
Speaker 1: Well, it's the only thing that you girls have been
Speaker 1: talking about, is it? Cheees Me?
Speaker 3: Well, it all started seven months ago on our first
Speaker 3: day as Latina USA fellows. It was after our first
Speaker 3: team meeting, and because we're working remotely, I'm in southern California,
Speaker 3: Elisa is in Miami. We jumped on a Google meet
Speaker 3: and almost immediately we began cheese manimal, or how we
Speaker 3: say in English gossiping.
Speaker 5: We realized that we were kindred spirits and we immediately
Speaker 5: felt comfortable with each other because we felt like we
Speaker 5: were taking a risk.
Speaker 1: A risk you mean by talking to each other.
Speaker 3: Yes, a risk to talk about Souda. What else?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Because it was clearly a cheese man, Okay, I mean.
Speaker 5: It's just something that we fell into without even trying.
Speaker 5: So there we are, We're feeling bonded, we're feeling connected,
Speaker 5: and then.
Speaker 4: I started to feel guilty.
Speaker 5: I think it has something to do with the fact
Speaker 5: that I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school
Speaker 5: for fourteen years, so I was taught from a very
Speaker 5: early age that gossip is harmful.
Speaker 4: And a moral But I still did it all the time.
Speaker 3: Elisa Maria, Can I be brave yet controversial?
Speaker 4: Obviously?
Speaker 6: Okay, I didn't.
Speaker 3: Feel that guilty. Chease me on the about our coworkers. Oh,
Speaker 3: we didn't say anything bad about them. With some context,
Speaker 3: I was a cousin in the family that had a
Speaker 3: bunch of cheese may and me being me, I've always
Speaker 3: handled those situations by doubling down. So if someone was
Speaker 3: trying to make some judgment and was like, I know,
Speaker 3: you moved out to be with your boyfriend, I would
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, and a girlfriend too, Like if they
Speaker 3: wanted the sun level, I was going to give it.
Speaker 7: To that.
Speaker 4: So, Maria, what is your relationship to cheesse me.
Speaker 2: I think, like you, I kind of love it chees me.
Speaker 2: I have very specific memories about sitting with my mom
Speaker 2: in the back of our green station wagon with all
Speaker 2: six of us driving to Mexico every year from Chicago
Speaker 2: in the middle of winter, and the closer we got
Speaker 2: to Mexico, the closer it was going to be the
Speaker 2: moment when we could say buen o, mamma, ill chees me.
Speaker 2: And so it became a way of like really embodying
Speaker 2: my mexicanness, you know, because I was growing up as
Speaker 2: a kid in Chicago and it was a way that
Speaker 2: I was bonding with my mom.
Speaker 3: Hmm. What I'm hearing is that cheese me is a
Speaker 3: little bit more complicated than we realize it is.
Speaker 1: I think cheese may is complicated.
Speaker 5: Even though cheeseman, though comes so naturally to us, we've
Speaker 5: actually been struggling to define cheese may. So we wanted
Speaker 5: to ask you, Mariya, how would you define cheese may.
Speaker 2: Well if you had to translate it the simplest ways
Speaker 2: to say, it's gossip. But there's something about cheesemay which
Speaker 2: is about storytelling. It's something that is very present in
Speaker 2: our reality as Latinos and Latinas in the United States,
Speaker 2: and I think that's the way we're looking at it,
Speaker 2: or at least that's the way I think you're.
Speaker 1: Going to be looking at it in this conversation.
Speaker 3: Wow, you've literally read our minds.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's hard to define because cheese may can
Speaker 5: mean different things to different people in different contexts. But
Speaker 5: if we're thinking about cheese may on a very basic level,
Speaker 5: it's talking about someone in their absence. So you're sharing
Speaker 5: information that you don't necessarily know to be true.
Speaker 4: But the tea is just too hot free to not
Speaker 4: spill immediately.
Speaker 3: In that first conversation we had, we were already asking
Speaker 3: all those questions, is it good?
Speaker 6: Is it bad?
Speaker 3: How can it be so fun when it's so bad?
Speaker 3: And is cheese me the same as rumor?
Speaker 5: We could already feel that as Latina's gossip isn't just gossip,
Speaker 5: it's an identity, it's a way of life.
Speaker 3: Well, to get some answers to some of our questions,
Speaker 3: we need hardcore data. So in the name of Cheesema science,
Speaker 3: we're conducting an experiment where we create achiemy and see
Speaker 3: how far it'll spread a cheese may about.
Speaker 8: You, Mania me O, Maria was in the DR for
Speaker 8: so long because she was filming a movie with Linn
Speaker 8: Men Mel Miranda, and she's going to be the next star,
Speaker 8: like a sexy movie Hustlers or something.
Speaker 2: What I thought you were gonna say was Maria was
Speaker 2: in the Dominican Republic so long. We think she just
Speaker 2: had a baby. Okay, Well, I want to hear the
Speaker 2: other ideas.
Speaker 3: We didn't have any other ideas.
Speaker 6: Those were all of our ideas.
Speaker 5: But I think I have something, Madia. So you know
Speaker 5: how you have this big, bouncy, voluminous hair.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's all about the hair and the hoops.
Speaker 5: Yes, so if we see it, it's always done up.
Speaker 5: But if we don't see it, it's always wrapped up
Speaker 5: in a turmine. So how about we make people believe
Speaker 5: that your big bouncy locks actually don't belong to you.
Speaker 4: It's not your real hair. It's a wig.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I have my tricks as to how I make it voluminous,
Speaker 2: but I could see how that could potentially work.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: So this is what we're gonna do. Since we have
Speaker 3: more questions and answers, I think we're gonna go on
Speaker 3: a little bit of a cheese macquest, and to do that,
Speaker 3: we're gonna have to speak to some cheesema experts from
Speaker 3: different fields to find out why cheese met is so
Speaker 3: central to our lives as a latinas.
Speaker 5: And finally, we're gonna get a little bit sneaky and
Speaker 5: talk to the team to see if this wig cheese
Speaker 5: met lights up.
Speaker 2: Like Firela when Monica, So, you have your assignment. You've
Speaker 2: pried a lot out of me regarding cheesemas so far,
Speaker 2: and I'm very intrigada.
Speaker 1: I'm using the cheese my voice.
Speaker 2: I'm very intrigued about what you're gonna come up with
Speaker 2: in your journey into a cheese me. So off you
Speaker 2: go and I'll see you on the other side, Mama.
Speaker 5: When we first set off on our cheese mac quest,
Speaker 5: Monica and I realize that we had something else in common.
Speaker 5: We're both huge fans of The Real Housewives.
Speaker 6: Gus, I've heard that.
Speaker 9: And soone did this table has been talking about how
Speaker 9: her bead you didn't come as a friend at all.
Speaker 10: You're done.
Speaker 5: So It's a reality TV franchise on Bravo that follows
Speaker 5: the everyday lives of wealthy women from different areas, So
Speaker 5: think lots of dinner parties, workout classes, international vacations, shopping
Speaker 5: trips obviously, but of course they look really good and
Speaker 5: really expensive, very expensive.
Speaker 3: And while Lisa and I were watching the new season
Speaker 3: of The Real Housewives of Miami What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: On You Know It?
Speaker 4: We had an epiphany.
Speaker 5: We thought maybe we love housewives because chiefment is everything
Speaker 5: on the show. We realized it's used as a narrative device,
Speaker 5: so it creates storylines and builds so much tension that
Speaker 5: a screaming match is the most appropriate form of conflict resolution.
Speaker 3: So we set up a conversation with two Real Housewives
Speaker 3: of Miami, Marisol Patton and Alexia Chevarria.
Speaker 9: So today starring on this show is my best friend
Speaker 9: Alexi Cheria Santra Mohito, carrier of the Real Housewives of Miami.
Speaker 10: Thank you for that beautiful introduction, And on the other
Speaker 10: side we have my best friend Marisol.
Speaker 5: We want to set the scene really quick. Marisola is
Speaker 5: laying on her couch like horizontally with a beat face
Speaker 5: and a high pony, and Alexia is sitting in the
Speaker 5: living room of her palatial two story penthouse with a
Speaker 5: beach view.
Speaker 3: There have only been a few latinas across the Real
Speaker 3: Housewives franchise, except on the Real Housewives of Miami, and
Speaker 3: as we were watching the show, it became obvious that
Speaker 3: there were parallels between how Shei's mosas and how housewives
Speaker 3: are perceived, as they're scene as tacky, simple minded and flamboyant.
Speaker 4: Should I introduce you as.
Speaker 6: No know, because the only thing that we are not
Speaker 6: is jim Moosa.
Speaker 11: I know about that because we live in Miami and
Speaker 11: pet Centro exactly I like to call it. We share information, yes,
Speaker 11: and when it's amongst us good friends, it's not cheesemay,
Speaker 11: It's just information and we need to be educated.
Speaker 5: So do you think that Latina women have a reputation
Speaker 5: of gossiping more than non Latinas.
Speaker 10: I know they're all terrible, I know, But she's asking
Speaker 10: if you think they have a reputation.
Speaker 4: I think yes.
Speaker 10: I think we're stereotyped because it comes from history, like from.
Speaker 6: Back in the day, more than gring us.
Speaker 2: Yea.
Speaker 10: At the end of the day, if you're a woman,
Speaker 10: you're a chimosa. Oh wait, but there's meg. I know
Speaker 10: some men get so much emoso. It's crazy, Like when
Speaker 10: there's a guy that's such amoso, like be careful, like
Speaker 10: they're like the worst.
Speaker 3: They are the worst. So why do you think that
Speaker 3: cheese may is so addicting?
Speaker 9: I think it's a mindless conversation. It's the easiest conversation
Speaker 9: for anyone to have. You're not talking about politics, religion.
Speaker 9: You don't have to be educated to chimyad. Anybody across
Speaker 9: the board can make a comment about somebody else and
Speaker 9: another person will jump in and they get into it, right,
Speaker 9: you know, all so white.
Speaker 10: It's so easy because you're not talking.
Speaker 4: Or chimiando about yourself.
Speaker 6: You're doing about somebody else.
Speaker 10: So it's so easy to talk about somebody you don't
Speaker 10: even know.
Speaker 4: That's why we all do it.
Speaker 6: I'm staying quiet.
Speaker 9: Stop saying we all do it like you're waiting for
Speaker 9: me to jump in.
Speaker 6: Haha.
Speaker 5: Alexia's family drama was carrying this last season.
Speaker 4: Her now husband Todd.
Speaker 5: Who she said is the first gringo she's ever kissed,
Speaker 5: by the way, had a huge blowout with her son.
Speaker 10: What I say that you're a loser, Yeah, but you're
Speaker 10: gonna wind up in jail.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 3: Don't get Alexias said herself that this fight was the
Speaker 3: worst moment in her life, and it's out there for
Speaker 3: anyone in the world to watch and form an opinion about.
Speaker 4: Alexia.
Speaker 5: You've been a reality TV star and a public figure
Speaker 5: for over a decade now. You could say that part
Speaker 5: of your job is to humiliate yourself on TV because
Speaker 5: you're exposing your real life drama as plot points.
Speaker 4: What was that like this last season?
Speaker 10: For me? It hasn't been humiliating at all. As a
Speaker 10: matter of fact, I think it's been therapeutic and healing
Speaker 10: because these were cheesemads that were always said about me
Speaker 10: and my family. And now I'm like, you know what, guys,
Speaker 10: it's my story, not a chieve man anymore. Like this
Speaker 10: is what it is. This is my time now to
Speaker 10: say it how it is and share it with the
Speaker 10: world and hopefully me being an inspiration for people not
Speaker 10: to be ashamed, to be proud of who you are
Speaker 10: and of your life experiences and to.
Speaker 4: Learn from them.
Speaker 10: And you know what, sometimes you got to put those
Speaker 10: cheesements to rest.
Speaker 6: You can't let other people control your achievement.
Speaker 9: Right, Alexia, Right exactly, that's your story.
Speaker 5: So there's something else we wanted to ask you about.
Speaker 5: We wanted it to come to you for some professional advice.
Speaker 9: Yes, oh, because we're the expert chiemosas that you have
Speaker 9: to come to us.
Speaker 10: We have a lot of experience in get the demo,
Speaker 10: so yes, tell us.
Speaker 4: How can we help you? So we started a cheese
Speaker 4: may about.
Speaker 3: Our boss that her hair isn't her real hair, it's
Speaker 3: a wig.
Speaker 1: A wig.
Speaker 9: That's boring, Feluca, that's not a good one. Why do
Speaker 9: you say she has like a fake leg or something?
Speaker 9: Does she wear a lot of pants?
Speaker 7: Well?
Speaker 10: Trying to keep their job.
Speaker 4: Remember it's their boss.
Speaker 10: Okay, it depends, you know, the achievement depends on who
Speaker 10: the person is. But this is like their boss, so
Speaker 10: they can't be you know, they can't take it overboardon.
Speaker 6: I don't know. You got to come up with something
Speaker 6: more exciting than a peluga.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I would never let.
Speaker 6: Me tell you something.
Speaker 9: The best achievement, I think is when you look someone
Speaker 9: in the eyes and you sound convincing.
Speaker 10: Ooh, you sound like an expert Marazol. And then you
Speaker 10: didn't want me to call you the g mossa.
Speaker 6: I just play one on TV.
Speaker 2: Coming up on Latino USA, our cheesemay Angels continued their
Speaker 2: investigation into how gossip has shaped their identity as Latinas
Speaker 2: and the steaks surrounding their cheeseme start to build as
Speaker 2: they travel further into a Chice Moosas universe.
Speaker 1: Stay with us, not the bays.
Speaker 2: Hey, We're back and before the break, producers Monica Morales
Speaker 2: Garcia and Elisa Bayena launched their quest to understand the
Speaker 2: significance of cheese ma or gossip what it means for
Speaker 2: the US Latino experience. They started by talking to some
Speaker 2: professional cheese mosas the Real Housewives of Miami, but they
Speaker 2: didn't stop there. Here are Monica and Elisa once again
Speaker 2: with cheese May.
Speaker 5: Monica the Miami Housewife really wanted us to form with
Speaker 5: our cheesemak experiment.
Speaker 3: Fake leg Aside, they did have some interesting points. The
Speaker 3: best cheesemut does require a little bit of work, and
Speaker 3: in order for our cheese me to be convincing, there
Speaker 3: has to be a body of supporting evidence so that
Speaker 3: it fits into a larger story.
Speaker 5: I think that I know someone who's really good at
Speaker 5: getting straight to the source, and like the housewives, she's
Speaker 5: also paid to chease me out on TV.
Speaker 12: Hi, everybody, I am Lelana Vascas. Formerly I was the
Speaker 12: anchor for E News. I've been in Access Hollywood. I
Speaker 12: spent seven years at The Today Show, and I think
Speaker 12: most people really know me from my years as a
Speaker 12: style expert on daytime TV.
Speaker 3: Ooh, so, why is celebrity cheese may such big business?
Speaker 12: I think people sometimes forget that these celebrities are true brands,
Speaker 12: and there is a machine that is there to protect
Speaker 12: that brand, and they want to control the narrative. They
Speaker 12: want to really control when a story breaks, how it breaks,
Speaker 12: how much you know about that story. And it's not
Speaker 12: just them, the media is also in on it. I've
Speaker 12: gotten a call ten minutes before I'm about to go
Speaker 12: on air that's like, we're killing this story because so
Speaker 12: and so's person called and they don't want to talk
Speaker 12: about it. Or you got this sound bite an interview.
Speaker 12: They want it gone, and I'm like, well, I don't
Speaker 12: want it gone. They're like, right, well, we've got to
Speaker 12: play the game. What you're hearing is a water down
Speaker 12: version because you're talking about millions of not billions of
Speaker 12: dollars at stake here.
Speaker 4: So just like there's big tech, there's big cheese meath.
Speaker 12: I mean, cheese me is what makes the world go round.
Speaker 3: So what do you think the relationship between cheeseman and storytelling.
Speaker 12: Is storytelling is just refined cheese myth. And it kind
Speaker 12: of makes sense that I went into this field because
Speaker 12: I want to know the stories, I want to ask
Speaker 12: the questions, and I haven't ability to tell a story live.
Speaker 12: That is really unique to me, and that is because
Speaker 12: I think I've practiced it for so long in front
Speaker 12: of my cousins at the dinner table, like at the
Speaker 12: Godness Sada at the Quinsignia. And there's a way that
Speaker 12: you tell the tieesement that gets everybody engaged and brings
Speaker 12: everyone into the conversation. And if you are the one
Speaker 12: leading that, there definitely is a performance aspect of that.
Speaker 4: No, totally. The delivery is super.
Speaker 12: Important because when you're telling it to an audience, you
Speaker 12: want to be gentle, you want to give it pause,
Speaker 12: you want to get the reactions because based on their reactions,
Speaker 12: what's the next part of the story that you're going
Speaker 12: to reveal? And are you going to tease it out?
Speaker 12: Are you going to leave them wanting more? Are you
Speaker 12: going to get up, go get a drink of water
Speaker 12: so that they're like, come back, come back. And that's essential,
Speaker 12: you know, as a host, as somebody who works on camera,
Speaker 12: to be able to do that, it's a very critical
Speaker 12: skill to have and not everybody can do it.
Speaker 3: So we took Leniana's advice and used our best storytelling
Speaker 3: skills to share our little experiment with her.
Speaker 4: And like the housewives, she was not impressed.
Speaker 12: No girl next level say that she was just vacationing
Speaker 12: at Mara a Lago, not mar A Lago. Oh my god,
Speaker 12: that's the mic drop.
Speaker 3: That's it right there. So it turns out that cheesemak
Speaker 3: can influence anything from the media that we consume to
Speaker 3: the products that we buy. And meanwhile there are people getting.
Speaker 4: Rich from our thirst for cheese.
Speaker 10: Man.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, if celebrities are brands, cheese may feeds
Speaker 5: the beast.
Speaker 3: So it's clear that cheesemay can be really influential, and
Speaker 3: maybe it has been that way forever. I feel like
Speaker 3: we need to dive into the role of cheesement throughout history.
Speaker 7: My name is Anna Dadriguez Navas. I am an assistiate
Speaker 7: pfessor of Latin American literature and culture at Leola, Chicago,
Speaker 7: and my most recent book is a book on gossip,
Speaker 7: which is why we're here.
Speaker 5: So the tora in your book idle Talk, Deadly Talk.
Speaker 5: You look at how gossip in the Caribbean isn't just
Speaker 5: a tool, it's a weapon. So while it can build communities,
Speaker 5: it can also destabilize them. And something that you also
Speaker 5: get into is a difference between the etymology of gossip
Speaker 5: and cheese may. I'm wondering if you could tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit more about that.
Speaker 7: So in English we use the word gossip pretty indistinguishably
Speaker 7: from the Spanish cheese mate, right, but at its origin
Speaker 7: they're very different. So the word gossip comes from gossip,
Speaker 7: which basically means mavrina. So the word gossip is rooted
Speaker 7: in kinship, in that kind of chatter or talk between
Speaker 7: god parents. It describes a specific act, whereas cheese may
Speaker 7: for us, in Spanish, the origin of the word is
Speaker 7: much more oppositional. It derives they're from the word for
Speaker 7: that bug, which is obviously an unpleasant, nasty creature, or
Speaker 7: the word for schism, which can mean division, rupture, break.
Speaker 5: This really surprised me because cheese made to me, has
Speaker 5: more of a positive connotation than gossip. Another distinction that
Speaker 5: you make in your book is that the terms gossip
Speaker 5: and rumor are often used interchangeably, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 5: that they're identical. So with rumors, you don't necessarily know
Speaker 5: where they're coming from, and they tend to be more conspiratorial.
Speaker 5: But gossip has almost more credibility because it's more personal
Speaker 5: and it's transmitted from one person to the next, so
Speaker 5: it's the whole You know, you didn't hear this from me, but.
Speaker 7: Yes, exactly. Gossip is very, very, very elastic, and it's
Speaker 7: really hard to overstate how different it can be and
Speaker 7: how much it changes while still being recognizable as gossip.
Speaker 3: So look, Doda, we've actually been speaking to several professional chizmosas,
Speaker 3: and now that I'm thinking about it, we've only wanted
Speaker 3: to talk to women, and we never even bothered to
Speaker 3: ask why that was. I'm starting to think that it
Speaker 3: might have something to do with the internalized belief that
Speaker 3: we gossip more or Gela Muherres almost mass chizmosis. But
Speaker 3: where does that belief even come from.
Speaker 7: Historically, there's been that suggestion that real men quote unquote
Speaker 7: don't gossip, So where does that come from? Well, women
Speaker 7: were historically excluded from the public sphere. We weren't the
Speaker 7: ones writing in newspapers or doing the public speaking, or
Speaker 7: attended political meetings. So it's in the private sphere where
Speaker 7: we found our voice. But it's also important to recognize
Speaker 7: that women were not the only one's gossip. What happens
Speaker 7: is that men use their public speech to label women's
Speaker 7: private speech as inferior, while ignoring their own private speech
Speaker 7: or not acknowledging what they're doing as a form of gossip.
Speaker 5: Too interesting, So is that maybe why women have been
Speaker 5: told that gossiping is bad and something that we should
Speaker 5: feel guilty about doing.
Speaker 7: You know, gossip is something that we all do. But
Speaker 7: what happens is that when people talk about gossip, it's
Speaker 7: not respectable or something that is a terrible thing to do.
Speaker 7: It's really what you're seeing as an attempt to police
Speaker 7: other people's gossip and to dismiss their voice.
Speaker 3: Exactly, And as you explore in your research, this isn't
Speaker 3: something new. So throughout history, what has been the relationship
Speaker 3: between gossip and power.
Speaker 7: Gossip has been historically a brush used by the oppressor
Speaker 7: to paint the oppressed. So it's happened with indigenous men
Speaker 7: with peasants and farmers with gay people, all of whom
Speaker 7: have been talked about as being lazy, good for nothing,
Speaker 7: gossip wers. But what is happening in those cases is
Speaker 7: that those in power are first excluding those groups from
Speaker 7: public discourse and then disqualifying their private discourse as nothing
Speaker 7: but gossip.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, I see how it is.
Speaker 5: So can you give us an example of what that
Speaker 5: looks like In Latin America.
Speaker 7: Whether it's slavery or colonization or dictatorships, our region has
Speaker 7: been marked, unfortunately, by systems of power that don't represent
Speaker 7: large sectors of the population, precisely because gossip is illicit
Speaker 7: and furtive. It is a way for people to circumvent
Speaker 7: those controls. They're able to challenge official versions of events,
Speaker 7: to say what they think really happen, and to circulate
Speaker 7: important knowledge to preserve their voices and their experiences.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean this is really resonating with me.
Speaker 5: In the afternoons, I used to sit in the sala
Speaker 5: of my childhood home with my visa weelas and they would,
Speaker 5: you know, tell me a lot of stories. There's usually
Speaker 5: a lot of cautionary tales, sometimes about men, but also
Speaker 5: about government repression in Cuba. So it is affirming to
Speaker 5: know that that is also a form of cheese made.
Speaker 7: Gossip is a fundamental part of the kind of information
Speaker 7: control of repressive political systems, and it sort of works
Speaker 7: both ways. It can be extremely beneficial and it can
Speaker 7: be extremely repressive. So, for instance, if someone gossip's with
Speaker 7: you and tells you, hey, be careful with the neighbor
Speaker 7: turns out that he's connected to the authorities, you know
Speaker 7: that if you want to be safe, you're not going
Speaker 7: to tell anything that might jeopardize you or your family
Speaker 7: to this neighbor, right, anything that is against the government.
Speaker 5: This reminds me of the comites in Cuba, which are
Speaker 5: basically networks of cheese muscles whose job is to snitch
Speaker 5: on their neighbors to the government if they see or
Speaker 5: hear or suspect of any illegal activity.
Speaker 7: Yes, that's a perfect example of that. That's one, and
Speaker 7: there are many, and this sadly continues to happen. And
Speaker 7: I want to point out that in this example we're
Speaker 7: talking about men right all the way.
Speaker 6: Yes, all the way.
Speaker 3: It's always the man.
Speaker 7: Gossip for us in the diaspora, is a really important
Speaker 7: way to reclaim stories that are at risk. So, for instance,
Speaker 7: if you think about family gossip, it's not just chatter.
Speaker 7: It's also a way of preserving something important or reclaiming
Speaker 7: lost memories, lost history, of filling out silences. There's a
Speaker 7: kind of oral history of the community that is authentic
Speaker 7: that emerges from gossip.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, Yes, hey, we're back. Producers Monica
Speaker 2: Morales Garcia and Elisa Bayena have the rest of the story.
Speaker 5: Monica, I think I'm having a moment. Oh my God,
Speaker 5: tell me. For maybe selfish reasons, my main goal in
Speaker 5: this quest has been to demystify Chiese May because obviously
Speaker 5: I'm very desperate to drop my guilt. But I think
Speaker 5: that it's distracted me from seeing how Cheese May has
Speaker 5: actually helped me form and craft my Cuban American identity.
Speaker 5: How So, when I think about when I feel the
Speaker 5: most Latina, it's when I'm Chiasmanlo with my Theas and
Speaker 5: my cousins. It's late at night, everybody's defenses are down,
Speaker 5: and that's when I'm not trying to check my Miami accent.
Speaker 4: Because I think it makes me sound less educated or something.
Speaker 3: You know, I've only recently been able to think of
Speaker 3: myself as respectable, and I think a lot of that
Speaker 3: is because so much of my Latinx identity is deeply
Speaker 3: tied with class and gender and my experience in being
Speaker 3: this working class, flamboyant chi they Latina with a huge butt.
Speaker 3: I know that my words have never really carried much weight,
Speaker 3: but it has been that act of dismissal that has
Speaker 3: always fueled my desire to just own my truths own
Speaker 3: my cheese, miss because for me, there's been nothing more
Speaker 3: powerful than just living in my truth.
Speaker 2: All Right, welcome back, Nissa Helite's the cheese Man. So
Speaker 2: how did the assignment go?
Speaker 3: We have so much to share, my god?
Speaker 5: Okay, So we first talked to two reality TV stars
Speaker 5: from the Real Housewives of Miami and they had some
Speaker 5: interesting suggestions about our Cheesema.
Speaker 6: Maria Luca, that's not a good one.
Speaker 9: Why do you say she has like a fake leg
Speaker 9: or something.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's like the craziest thing I've ever heard that
Speaker 2: what's easier to make people believe is that I have
Speaker 2: a fake leg, not that I'm using weight.
Speaker 3: Our second expert was an entertainment journalist, and she wanted
Speaker 3: us to take it even.
Speaker 12: Further say that she was just vacationing at mar A Lago.
Speaker 2: Wow, I think she knows me because to that one,
Speaker 2: that's some pretty serious cheesement that could destroy my career.
Speaker 3: Good thing. We spoke to our last expert, Lo Toro
Speaker 3: riaz Neavz, who reminded us that cheesemut is supposed to
Speaker 3: be organic, it's not supposed to be fabricated. So in
Speaker 3: this case, our experiment took an unexpected turn.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm totally confused and intrigued. Now I want to
Speaker 2: know what happened.
Speaker 4: Okay, So.
Speaker 5: What we're saying is that we didn't end up telling
Speaker 5: anybody on our team that you wear a wig.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 3: We learned that the space where cheesemu happens is really
Speaker 3: vital because you need to build that intimacy and confienza.
Speaker 3: You got to look people in the eye. But because
Speaker 3: we're all working remotely, we realize that spreading the cheese
Speaker 3: may wasn't really going to happen as naturally as we wanted.
Speaker 2: In other words, cheese may has actually taken a hit
Speaker 2: during the pandemic.
Speaker 3: It was a really unexpected loss.
Speaker 2: I did wonder, how do you start cheesemaup when you're
Speaker 2: not all in the office, So yeah, the pandemic hit again.
Speaker 5: We were also just thinking what if we did start
Speaker 5: spreading this cheesemail. What if we started having meetings with
Speaker 5: other producers and we were like, hey, guess what, Madia's
Speaker 5: hair is fake? What if that was an invitation for
Speaker 5: them to say some really mean, nasty things about your hair.
Speaker 2: The thing about cheese may is that it can go dark,
Speaker 2: it can get cruel, and it can be used as
Speaker 2: a takedown.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean, we also have to remember that cheese may
Speaker 5: is a way that belief systems are built and also maintained. So,
Speaker 5: for example, if I'm talking to Una Senora and she's
Speaker 5: gossiping to me about how someone gained weight and she's
Speaker 5: framing it as something shameful, that she is not going
Speaker 5: to be fun for me because body shaming is against
Speaker 5: my personal ethical code.
Speaker 2: And so that is the other side of cheesema where
Speaker 2: we can be laughing and joking. But then it's like,
Speaker 2: oh uh, there was a crossover right there, and I
Speaker 2: understand that that would have been hard. Also if anybody
Speaker 2: said anything bad about my hair, I'd have to come
Speaker 2: at them, not just kidding.
Speaker 5: So even though we didn't end up spreading the wig Cheesemay,
Speaker 5: I think that we still came out on top because
Speaker 5: we had a breakthrough. We learned that we'd come from
Speaker 5: a long line of cheese malsas who like us, knew
Speaker 5: that gossip isn't just silly women's talk. It deserves more
Speaker 5: respect because it can be a tool for resistance.
Speaker 3: Yes exactly, it's an ancestral language, a save for cheesemad
Speaker 3: right there. And you know, this experiment has made us
Speaker 3: realize that it's not even so much what we're cheeseman
Speaker 3: though about, but rather the connection that cheese May is creating.
Speaker 12: My ps and I live such different lives and sometimes
Speaker 12: it's hard to find things to talk about, but we
Speaker 12: can always talk about Talia always. Cheese May creates commonalities
Speaker 12: for us to discuss and discuss passionately and energetically and
Speaker 12: have fun together.
Speaker 7: Gossip, for us is a real important connective tissue, connecting
Speaker 7: us us Latinas to Latin America, connecting us within our communities. Right,
Speaker 7: it can be a bridge so that sense of belonging,
Speaker 7: that sense of being part of that community is heightened
Speaker 7: with the gossip.
Speaker 6: I don't know, this is like a therapy session.
Speaker 1: See that's it.
Speaker 10: You know.
Speaker 2: For me, cheese may is like bonding in particular with
Speaker 2: family and joy and storytelling. I mean when I understood
Speaker 2: that what my mom was doing during the time that
Speaker 2: we were Cheesemando was actually telling me great stories, it was.
Speaker 1: A turning point for me.
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, I'm a storyteller too, and that
Speaker 2: basically changed my whole life.
Speaker 5: I think I'm hearing that since we're all professional storytellers,
Speaker 5: were also professional chiese mosas. And you know what, that
Speaker 5: is nothing to be ashamed of. It is what gives
Speaker 5: us our power.
Speaker 3: Ooh yes, our powers.
Speaker 2: It's official because this sientific, asad cheese May have told us.
Speaker 2: So Elisa, Monica, your assignment is now complete. I am
Speaker 2: blessing you to go off to cheese me Are until
Speaker 2: you can't anymore, and that you're spreading the gospel of
Speaker 2: Cheesemare's resistance. So until your next assignment, off you go,
Speaker 2: my little Angels of Cheesemas. This episode was produced by
Speaker 2: Monica Moralis Garcia and Elisa Maena. It was edited by
Speaker 2: Marta Martinez and mixed by Stephanie Leveaux and Julia Caruso.
Speaker 2: Thenanda Echavari is our managing editor. The Latino USA team
Speaker 2: also includes Froxanna Guire, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Renaldo Leanos Junior,
Speaker 2: Andrea Lopez Cruzado, Louis Luna, Dori mar Marquez, Lugeta Martinelli,
Speaker 2: JJ Carubin, Adrena Rodriez.
Speaker 1: And Nancy Trujillo.
Speaker 2: Nilee Ramirez and I are co executive producers and I'm
Speaker 2: your host Mariano Rosa. Latino USA is part of Iheart's
Speaker 2: Mike Utura podcast network. Executive producers at iHeart are Leogo
Speaker 2: Miz and Arlene Santana.
Speaker 1: Join us again on our next episode.
Speaker 2: In the meantime, I'll see you on all of our
Speaker 2: social media and don't forget, dear listener, Join Futuro Plus.
Speaker 1: You get to listen to the episode.
Speaker 2: Ad free and get bonus episodes and yes, some behind
Speaker 2: the scenes cheese men, and you'll be supporting Futuro Media,
Speaker 2: which we know you love.
Speaker 1: Estella Proxima c
Speaker 3: Chao Latino USA is made possible in part by Skyline
Speaker 3: Foundation the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front
Speaker 3: lines of social change worldwide, and Michelle Mercer and Bruce
Speaker 3: Golden