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Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, and welcome back to Katie's Crib. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about faith, religion, traditions and how families blend them.

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Speaker 1: This can be especially challenging when kids are out of

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Speaker 1: to the mix. It's definitely on my mind as we

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Speaker 1: get into the holiday season. So how do families honor

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Speaker 1: those traditions without losing others and how do we create

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Speaker 1: new ones. I'm gonna be talking to my dear friend,

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Speaker 1: Sasha Sagan. She's a writer and a filmmaker. She'll share

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Speaker 1: her experiences growing up and how she her husband and

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Speaker 1: daughter are making it work now. And then I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be talking to actress yell Stone from Oranges in

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Speaker 1: The New Black. She actually pitched this whole idea. We

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Speaker 1: were emailing back and forth and she came up with

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Speaker 1: it and I was like, this is brilliant. We need

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Speaker 1: to talk about it. She's on the podcast and she

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Speaker 1: will share how she and her partner value the importance

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Speaker 1: of honoring family traditions and bringing their families stories together.

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Speaker 1: This is so exciting because we're doing the New York edition,

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Speaker 1: um and we are in the awesome playroom in my

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Speaker 1: New York apartment with such a good friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about faith and religion and

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Speaker 1: how families work to blend them or not blend them,

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Speaker 1: and how you do this whole thing. And today I

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Speaker 1: am here talking to my friend Sasha Sagan, who has

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Speaker 1: been a very close friend of mine since we were

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Speaker 1: what like I think like nineteen like nineteen n y

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Speaker 1: u days. And now we're sitting across from each other

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Speaker 1: and we have children. Yes, insane, Oh Sasha, I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy I'm asking you in this playroom. Is we're sitting

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Speaker 1: so you guys know, we're literally sitting in chairs for

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Speaker 1: four year old Yes, yes, and they're actually I'm surprised

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Speaker 1: at how comfortable well, because you're so beautiful and and

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Speaker 1: can fit my asses pouring over my child chair. Sasha,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about like what

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Speaker 1: your upbringing personally was like and if spirituality or religion

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Speaker 1: was a part of your childhood, and maybe a little

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Speaker 1: bit about your family traditions. So, um, my dad was

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Speaker 1: a scientist, um and astronomer specifically, and who says that

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Speaker 1: I'll start there um and he and my mom um

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Speaker 1: wrote um a lot of books together about science and

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Speaker 1: TV show in the eighties called Cosmos that my dad hosted,

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Speaker 1: and my mom continues to write and produce the newer version.

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Speaker 1: UM so good, thank you. I mean I'm taking credit things.

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Speaker 1: It is so good. She is amazing. Um. And so

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Speaker 1: we my parents raised us, um with a very scientific worldview.

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Speaker 1: And the idea you know that's so central to science

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Speaker 1: is that belief requires evidence and if something doesn't stand

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Speaker 1: up to scrutiny when you question it, it might not

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Speaker 1: be real and and so um. But the other side

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Speaker 1: of it is, Um, we are Jews, but secular Jews,

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Speaker 1: I would say. And part of the reason, I mean,

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Speaker 1: Judaism has that sort of gray area where it's like

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Speaker 1: an ethnic group but also a religion, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of stuff there. But part

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Speaker 1: of it is also because like science and skepticism and

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Speaker 1: secular humanism doesn't have culture. It doesn't have holidays, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have expressions, it doesn't have cuisine. Yeah, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have lots of a soup for any other soup with

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Speaker 1: dumplings in it, which seems to be a kind of

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Speaker 1: universal thing. We sort of merged these two things, um,

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Speaker 1: because you know, even if you're a skeptical or even

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Speaker 1: if you know, I wouldn't like, you know, we sort

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Speaker 1: of talked about We've talked about this in the past,

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Speaker 1: Like atheism has this connotation of like, I know for

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Speaker 1: sure that there is no God, and that's not the

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Speaker 1: camp I'm in. An Agnosticism has the connotation of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't really care here, and I literally care. I'm

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Speaker 1: very interested in this topic, but I sort of reserve

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Speaker 1: belief with lack of evidence. So until you know I

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Speaker 1: have information one way or the other, I would say

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Speaker 1: I'm secular. And that's how it's raised. But there's also

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Speaker 1: I was raised with the idea that there's so much

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Speaker 1: to celebrate that is verifiably true, and that you know,

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Speaker 1: there is a secret code in your blood that connects

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Speaker 1: you to your ancestors, and when your baby is born,

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Speaker 1: in their DNA DNA exactly, you can see your dad, grandfather,

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Speaker 1: and that is like a magical, mythical thing and you

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Speaker 1: can prove it and it's real. It's scientific whether right then,

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Speaker 1: So that's sort of my Both of your parents were Jewish, yes,

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Speaker 1: and they both sounds like had a pretty good handle

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Speaker 1: on on sort of this awesome melding of cultural Judaism,

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Speaker 1: maybe celebrating certain traditions, but also what did they say

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Speaker 1: when you said to them is there a God? Because

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Speaker 1: I am scared, like I'm not gonna lie, like when

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Speaker 1: Albi is old enough to be like, is there one?

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Speaker 1: Like I still like, honestly, you guys like I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't know when I don't know what I'm gonna say. Well,

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Speaker 1: but I think that's the answer, is I mean, if

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Speaker 1: this is how you Obviously, if you're devoutly religious, of

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Speaker 1: course you know, of course what you believe. But if

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Speaker 1: you're skeptical or I think I don't know, is a

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Speaker 1: totally acceptable answer when you asked your parents, these secular scientists,

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Speaker 1: where is there a God? Because I'm scared, Like I

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Speaker 1: know Albi is gonna and we'll get to this, but

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Speaker 1: like you know, Adam and I have were raised different.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people in relationships raising the child come

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Speaker 1: from their own set of traditions, their own set of

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Speaker 1: belief systems. You know, I've even noticed in friends who

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know to be religious, they suddenly have

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Speaker 1: a child and they're baptizing the child at one and

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know that person went to church or

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Speaker 1: you know, so children really bring about questions. So when

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Speaker 1: you ask your parents, so it's so true. And when

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Speaker 1: before I had my daughter, people would say, oh, you're

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Speaker 1: not religious now, but once you have kids, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be every Friday, you know, And there is an urge

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Speaker 1: to like celebrate and mark time. I think so much

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Speaker 1: of it is about marking time. But in terms of

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Speaker 1: and I'm very pro celebration, I think there's so much

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Speaker 1: to celebrate. But I don't think you also don't have

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Speaker 1: to pick between belief and celebration, ritual tradition and so growing.

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Speaker 1: To answer your question, growing up, besides my secular Jewish

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Speaker 1: humanist parents, UM, the other grown up in our household

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Speaker 1: who lived with us who was a member of our

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Speaker 1: family was my nanny far Hey. And she before she

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Speaker 1: became a nannie UM, she had been a cloister nun

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Speaker 1: in the Andy's Mountains in Peru. She was crap, that's

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Speaker 1: what she wouldn't want to hear that story now she had,

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Speaker 1: but it was you know, her life story. I will

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Speaker 1: tell you over a bottle of wine. Sometimes fascinating, amazing,

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Speaker 1: amazing woman. But she was a devout, true believer and

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Speaker 1: you know we she didn't drive. We would take her

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Speaker 1: to church every Sunday and sometimes she would bring me

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Speaker 1: and I loved it because I love like very ordinate

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Speaker 1: places where people are dressed off as a child, and

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Speaker 1: today that appealed to me. Um. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: knew that she believed something totally different than my parents believed,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't taboo to talk about. And your parents

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Speaker 1: were totally fine with her belief system and not in

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Speaker 1: not telling her to like curb it from your no

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Speaker 1: no censorship. I think about this a lot because my

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Speaker 1: nanny is like she's really hardcore Christian. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: reads the Bible every day, repeats it to herself, you know,

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Speaker 1: like she underlines things and it's with her all the time.

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Speaker 1: She wears a cross around her neck that my son

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Speaker 1: constantly plays with, and I'm like, wow when he gets

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Speaker 1: older and he starts to understand, like how does this

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Speaker 1: all fit in? Right? And you're respect the show? Do

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Speaker 1: you even think you're the best? Like okay, So one

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Speaker 1: day when I was little, I went to my parents

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Speaker 1: and I was like, look, Maraha says, when you die.

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Speaker 1: I was like very morbid child still now, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, very curious about death. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, Maraha says, when you die, you're in

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Speaker 1: heaven with God and angels, and you guys say that

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Speaker 1: it's like you're asleep forever with no dreams. Um, who

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Speaker 1: is right? And my parents, to their everlasting credit, smiling

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Speaker 1: joyous in unison, said to me, nobody knows. I have

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Speaker 1: such goose bumps. You know what I love about that statement.

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Speaker 1: They didn't say we don't know, right, They said nobody right, right,

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Speaker 1: because nobody knows who's I mean, as scientists, there's no

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Speaker 1: nobody knows what happens after you die. Nobody knows, and

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Speaker 1: it's only believes such an amazing mystery because it's something

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Speaker 1: nobody knows, but everyone will find out which is And

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Speaker 1: I think I don't know. Besides, I mean, it didn't

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Speaker 1: give me like a lot of clarity about death, but

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Speaker 1: it did give me a lot of clarity about the life.

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Speaker 1: You know. Um, it was like this idea that like,

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Speaker 1: there is not an answer for everything, and there are

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Speaker 1: some mysteries that like this that everyone will find out.

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Speaker 1: There are some things that we will never know. There

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Speaker 1: are some things that are species didn't know for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and now we understand. And I think that

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Speaker 1: it's you know, saying to a kid. I mean, listen,

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Speaker 1: if you are very you know, if you have total conviction,

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Speaker 1: of course, tell your child what you believe, But if

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Speaker 1: you have that little nagging doubt or you believe part

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Speaker 1: of it and not another part, or you say I

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Speaker 1: believe this, Daddy believes this. Um, we don't know, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think saying we don't know or I don't know,

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Speaker 1: even to a child is such a sign of respect

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Speaker 1: and to say you have to figure this out for yourself,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I think that um honesty and honesty.

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Speaker 1: Because also once you start with the FIBs, and of

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Speaker 1: course there's always gonna be lies of omission and like no,

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Speaker 1: we're all on ice cream or whatever, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's inevitable. But about the big

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Speaker 1: philosophical stuff, right, the cracks are going to come eventually,

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Speaker 1: and if you have lied about this, maybe later down

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Speaker 1: the road, you know, create a different problem. Yeah. Like

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Speaker 1: Kristen Bell, I know this for a fact. I've talked

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Speaker 1: to her about this before. She and this is a

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Speaker 1: very interesting way to parent, and I guess feels very

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Speaker 1: right to her in dex But I know they are

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Speaker 1: very honest with their kids, Like, there is no Santa Claus,

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Speaker 1: and don't tell, don't tell your friends. But I think

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Speaker 1: there's something very value. But do you think your mom

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Speaker 1: would let a stranger come down her chimney in a

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Speaker 1: middle and night we were sleeping. No, she wouldn't. So

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Speaker 1: there is no Santa Claus. But we're going to give

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Speaker 1: you gifts in a tree and everything. What are you

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Speaker 1: gonna do? Okay? So this is like who, So you're

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Speaker 1: married to John? Yes, I'm married too. I love how

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Speaker 1: your parents dealt with it. Now how are you going

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Speaker 1: to do it? So? John, who is a dream? He

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Speaker 1: is not Jewish? Um? And he was. He's the former

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Speaker 1: stepson of a minister, and his family are varying degrees

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Speaker 1: of religious or secular, but Christian, you know, and even

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Speaker 1: secularly Christian if that's the thing. Um. And he also

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Speaker 1: does not believe. So we're in agreement about that. But

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Speaker 1: there's you know, it's tradition to a break. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Christmas is extremely popular. People really get into it. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have noticed. Um, And it's day,

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Speaker 1: every thanks given, every single story, and it's like I

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Speaker 1: mean there's a whole other element of like you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean and like I grew up with Hanukah, and

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Speaker 1: you know, we did Hanukah. We did a secular version

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Speaker 1: of Passover that was really more focused on like the

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Speaker 1: history of our people is that we were enslaved and

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Speaker 1: now right now there are people who are we to

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Speaker 1: story this is this has to be a call to

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Speaker 1: action to do right in the world. Not necessarily that

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Speaker 1: God part of the Red Sea and that's how we

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Speaker 1: got out. But look how lucky we are. Now, Let's

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Speaker 1: remember not everyone is this lucky. And we had another

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Speaker 1: spring holiday which my mother invented for me called Blossom Day,

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Speaker 1: which is when the dogwood tree and like that we

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Speaker 1: could see from the dining room and bloomed. We would

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Speaker 1: have a tea party and I love it great with

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Speaker 1: my like, dolls, are you going to do lately? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: Are you going to do Christmas? Okay? So we had

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Speaker 1: one to sound yeah, so what happens? So we did Hanukah.

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Speaker 1: We did Christmas and I had somebody gave us like

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Speaker 1: red and green stripey pajamas and I was like putting

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Speaker 1: her in them, and I was like I can't, Like

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Speaker 1: I was like she has to wear these patuas and

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Speaker 1: I was like, what is happening? Whoever? Right now? And

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Speaker 1: like my we were leaving for a long drive the

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Speaker 1: next day back to Boston, and my mother in law

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Speaker 1: on Christmas Eve was like, let's just do presents on

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Speaker 1: Christmas Eve because we have to get up very early

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Speaker 1: the next day on Christmas. And I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: she has to have Christmas Morning. Like all this stuff

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Speaker 1: that I would have never been what we did. So

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Speaker 1: we did that stuff in a side scular way Hanaka

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Speaker 1: and Christmas. But what we did that I felt much

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Speaker 1: more conviction about was we did a winter solstice things.

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Speaker 1: And so see, for me, all these traditions are based

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Speaker 1: in like you're writing about this, so I'm writing about

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Speaker 1: this right now, slowly but surely now. And really I

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Speaker 1: think all around the world, different cultures, different religious groups,

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Speaker 1: there is a grain of something scientifically real in almost

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Speaker 1: all of our celebrations. Changing of the seasons, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the winter solstice is intrinsically good. The days are going

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Speaker 1: to start getting longer. The earth rotates at about twenty

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Speaker 1: three degree acts feel tilt, and because of that we

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Speaker 1: have seasons and the length of days change in different

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Speaker 1: extremes depending on how far away from the equator you are,

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Speaker 1: and if you live somewhere where it's been really dark

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Speaker 1: and cold, old for months, knowing that tomorrow we start

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Speaker 1: moving towards summer, the days are going to get longer.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is a clause for celebration that requires

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Speaker 1: no faith, and it's a thrill and it's beautiful, and

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Speaker 1: there are so many things like that that are at

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Speaker 1: the root of so many celebrations. And also biological events birth,

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Speaker 1: coming of age, death. These are real scientific phenomenal exactly

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Speaker 1: all over the world, and some of them are these

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Speaker 1: gorgeous performance art pieces about what it is like to

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Speaker 1: grow up or to be born or to die. You know,

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Speaker 1: marriage is sort of a kind of a coming of

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Speaker 1: age thing too, And you know, I think that really

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Speaker 1: at the root, we're all celebrating the same stuff, and

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Speaker 1: we don't if you, I mean, if you love the

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Speaker 1: religious elements or the mythology, um, then that's fantastic. But

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Speaker 1: if that does speak to you, you can still have

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Speaker 1: these parties and these coming together and these joy and

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Speaker 1: I think that's what's crucial. And I think waking up

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Speaker 1: your I mean, she's a little too little right now,

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Speaker 1: but waking up your kid and like midnight on the

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Speaker 1: winter solstice and saying, this is how the earth moves

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Speaker 1: and because of that, tomorrow the days are going to

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Speaker 1: start getting longer. And then having like a feast and

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Speaker 1: presence in the middle of the night, is that what

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Speaker 1: your winter? So well, that's what we want to do.

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Speaker 1: I mean she was like, I mean it was the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night because she was like nursing. She

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Speaker 1: was like, right, but like and she was, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, but we have we before we were even engaged,

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Speaker 1: we talked about this idea of like having like maybe

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Speaker 1: like a globe and a flashlight to like do a

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Speaker 1: little and I just feel like, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: are religious, that stuff is still like the you know,

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Speaker 1: the were earth has like this is all this is spring.

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Speaker 1: Like the reason Easter is involved with baby bunnies and

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Speaker 1: chocolate and this kind of stuff is because the earth

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Speaker 1: is awakening again to springtime totally and it's Passover and Easter,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of many many Spring equinox celebrations that

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Speaker 1: almost all have this thematic you know thread of things

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Speaker 1: looked really really bad and then it worked out, and

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Speaker 1: so have some hope, and that is what spring is. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's like this, like like it looked like we were

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Speaker 1: totally that he was growing out of the ground. We're starving,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, I think if you I guess,

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Speaker 1: what I would hope is that even if you are devout,

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Speaker 1: that stuff is still true about like spring is beautiful,

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Speaker 1: the winter solstice is amazing. A baby is born. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, someone goes for puberty. These are right, somebody

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Speaker 1: goes from being a child to being in a position survived.

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Speaker 1: I mean for most of history it was just amazing

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Speaker 1: you could survive to adolescents. And then now you're a

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Speaker 1: member of the you know, the tribe that you get

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Speaker 1: to make decisions, you get to start to think about

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Speaker 1: making more people, you know, all these things. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's so this is like the stuff you're gonna you're

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Speaker 1: writing about and you're working on that. I cannot wait

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Speaker 1: to read that. I love this way that you're raising Helena.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel any pressures? I mean, obviously the Christmas

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Speaker 1: Morning that you feel, whether that was from John's family

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Speaker 1: and his upbringing, or more like societal like just being

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Speaker 1: raised in America and seeing a Christmas story or we're

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Speaker 1: going thirty fourth Street or the Santa clause at the mall.

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Speaker 1: It's like this is these are pressures that you have

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Speaker 1: to decide and where that so much time being like

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Speaker 1: I don't need that stuff. I've got my like but

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Speaker 1: it was secular side where right, right? I mean Christmas

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Speaker 1: specifically is so it's hard. I mean it's really hard

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Speaker 1: to not feel left out. I'll just be totally real

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Speaker 1: and I mean I have so many I have three

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Speaker 1: very good friends who emigrated here from um parts of

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Speaker 1: the world that are not Christian, from China and from

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Speaker 1: the Middle East, and say, all three of them independently

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Speaker 1: of each other. When they arrived as children, believed that

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Speaker 1: Christmas was an American holiday and it did not and thought, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we're American now, so we're as entitled to celebrate it

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Speaker 1: as the Archbishop of Canterbury, right, and only later realized

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Speaker 1: that it had a religious connotation. For my daughter, it

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Speaker 1: was more like, well, she means she's half she's half

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Speaker 1: I mean Christian is sort of implies her that's her theology.

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Speaker 1: But her ancestors are Christians. I mean, you know, John

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Speaker 1: is the descendant of one of this guy, John Robinson

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Speaker 1: who was the pastor to the pilgrims Um, Like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, now that you mentioned he really looks like

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Speaker 1: like like he just really if I was in Central Castings,

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Speaker 1: like like he's very handsome, you guys, but he really

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Speaker 1: looks like he's very handsome. But he really could be

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Speaker 1: like he stepped off the MAYFLANX. Yes, well he I

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Speaker 1: mean somewhere or somewhere, so you know. And I just

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Speaker 1: felt like for our daughter, like I'm not gonna say, well,

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Speaker 1: my stuff is, you know, like I'm getting vote here,

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Speaker 1: you know. And he didn't really have that, Like he

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Speaker 1: wasn't like we gotta put her in the stripe he

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Speaker 1: red and green pajamas or anything. But I just feel like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like the more options that she has,

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Speaker 1: the more culture, the more that she's exposed to, the

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Speaker 1: more celebrated, the better. And then someday she'll say I

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Speaker 1: love this, I hate this, this is what I want

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Speaker 1: to do, what I want to do, I can't who

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Speaker 1: do this and say hey, you know all of this

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Speaker 1: normal waking me up in the middle of the night

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Speaker 1: with a flashlight in the globe. Yeah, do you know

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Speaker 1: what it would down that she was like to go

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Speaker 1: to school and say to my friends, like, could you

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Speaker 1: imagine she's gonna bring all her friends over for blossom ethic? Amazing?

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Speaker 1: I feel this is also you know, I was raised

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Speaker 1: very similarly in the way like my parents were. My

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Speaker 1: mom was not raised religiously and all. My dad was

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Speaker 1: raised super Irish Catholic, and my mom comes from Judaism.

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Speaker 1: But her parents didn't have money to bots her take

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Speaker 1: her to temple. You know, they were like very poor

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Speaker 1: and you have to be a member or something like that,

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Speaker 1: so she was not raised religiously um and but their

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Speaker 1: parents were pissed anyway that they got together. So when

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Speaker 1: my brother and I came along, they were very much like, well,

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Speaker 1: we don't we don't have it in our household. Were

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Speaker 1: New Yorkers think about So my parents said we were

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Speaker 1: Skish because on weekends we were always on the mountain.

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Speaker 1: And my parents are really into nature, and so they said,

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Speaker 1: we're on Sundays when everyone else is at church or

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Speaker 1: Hebrew School, you're on the mountains, so you sort of

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Speaker 1: like a worshiper of nature, which is funny. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of similar to UM. I don't really remember asking the

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Speaker 1: questions about God, but I remember feeling super special in

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Speaker 1: elementary school when people would leave for you know, um,

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Speaker 1: for the holiday over the winter break. They would be like, well,

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Speaker 1: are you celebrating Christmas or hanakah as if those are

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Speaker 1: the only two? Right? Very frustrating. Um, but I would

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Speaker 1: say I get to do both, which I didn't really

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Speaker 1: because no one in my family knew how to do

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Speaker 1: the prayers for Hanaka or whatever. But my dad's family

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Speaker 1: Irish Catholic. I mean we're talking. You go to Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: New York, and there are Jesus on the cross hanging

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Speaker 1: in everyone's rooms, over the beds. You know, everyone goes

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Speaker 1: to midnight Mass on Christmas. And um, my husband is

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Speaker 1: super Jewish and was raised um going to Jewish sleep

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Speaker 1: boy camp and really really it was a big part

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Speaker 1: of his life. So he had never gone to a

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Speaker 1: Catholic home, so we treated him like babies first Christmas like,

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Speaker 1: but now he loves it. And what's interesting is he

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Speaker 1: has the biggest issue with now that we're talking about

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Speaker 1: how we're going to raise out, but he has a

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Speaker 1: really big issue with Easter. Like he's like, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand this, Like it freaks him out. This like Christ

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Speaker 1: resurrecting things. So what's interesting about parenting is like there

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00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: are triggers for some reason, Like he's fine with Christmas,

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Speaker 1: I'm cool with Passover. He really wants there to be

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Speaker 1: a Jewish sleepaway camp in there, and I'm like, does

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Speaker 1: that mean the kids away for eight weeks? Sign me up.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we're sifting through like like his parents.

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Speaker 1: Um oh, it was big. You don't have a boy,

400
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: but the brisk that's a big, big thing. Guys. Yeah,

401
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: we could do a whole fucking episode on circumcisions thing

402
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: because I have so many girlfriends who I love and respect.

403
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: You had boys at the same time I did, and

404
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: we had to have multiple conversations about whether that is

405
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: um humane and whether that is um yeah, like you

406
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: are hurting your child and how to do it in

407
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: a way. I mean it was bonkers and what's chez.

408
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Speaker 1: If I was married to somebody else, I may not

409
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Speaker 1: have done it. But I was married to someone traditionally

410
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Speaker 1: that was so willing to pass judgment on like ritual scarification,

411
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Speaker 1: like in National Geographic and like you know, you grow

412
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Speaker 1: up and you see you know pictures of like um

413
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Speaker 1: women with like a in their and stuff, like that

414
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: and easy to say, oh, that's so different than us,

415
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Speaker 1: but it's not. It's not if you heard, if you

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Speaker 1: if you know in the West, circumcision was not a

417
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Speaker 1: common thing, and I'm not. I mean, I don't know.

418
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Speaker 1: I don't have a boy. I guess well you'll see

419
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: certain decision episode guys, because Holy Ship so fascinating because

420
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Speaker 1: it's just one of those many things where it's so

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00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: easy to see your own culture through this very accepting lens,

422
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: and it's so easy to see what other people do

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00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: around the world as so, I mean, all the thing

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00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: is I mean children, it's really just such an opportunity

425
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Speaker 1: to ask yourself these questions and see what it's right

426
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: and how to sift through this stuff with whoever you're

427
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: raising your baby with, whether it's a nanny, family, grandparents. Know,

428
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 1: like I feel tremendous pressure like Adam's parents. If I

429
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: didn't barmits for my kids, you know, there is something

430
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: there of like, you know, the Jewish people that he

431
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 1: comes from have struggled a long time to feel that

432
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: they can be Jewish and do their things and not

433
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: faced hatred and sentences and all this stuff. So I

434
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: so I feel that, like I'm like, I they have

435
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think there's this saying like you, if

436
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: you're a grandparent, you're not even considered Jewish, and as

437
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: your grandchildren or Jewish your job. Well, I will say

438
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: I do think that there is a difference between passing

439
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: on majority and minority customs if you live in a

440
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: place where you are a member of an oppressed group

441
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: or minority. I think that that is there is something

442
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: about those traditions that I can understand a more of

443
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 1: an impetus to drill that stuff into your kids. Then

444
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: if it's like, well, this is what everybody in your

445
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: whole neighborhood is doing and you never even heard of

446
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: anybody not doing this, that I feel like the culture

447
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: sort of takes care. Sounds like I'm going to have

448
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: to be like, look, sweetie, so there's this thing called Christmas.

449
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, Like it's where she already

450
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: knows right, she sounds a movie exactly, Whereas I do

451
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: feel like when you and this is sort of part

452
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,959
Speaker 1: of the reason I do hang on to some of

453
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: my Judaism even though I don't believe, is that I'm like,

454
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people didn't make it and

455
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people were like, it would just I'm

456
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: just going to convert because it's easy. I mean, I

457
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: mean literally during the Inquisition people were like this, They're

458
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: gonna kill me. I'm just gonna not be Swish and

459
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: just hope no one ever finds out and the genetic

460
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: testing is never invented and no one ever knows, you

461
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And like now all the time,

462
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: I feel like I've had these like like six ft

463
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: tall blonde friends who are like, I just did ancestry

464
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: dot com and I found out I'm true. I should

465
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's amazing, and so I kind of there

466
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: is part of me that's like, wow, a lot of

467
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: people really got put through the ringer and risk their

468
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: lives truly to hang onto this so that in two

469
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: I could be born Jewish and know that I was Jewish,

470
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: what I mean. So I think there's an element of that,

471
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: But I also think there's a way to incorporate the

472
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: stuff that you love and like recipes and expressions and

473
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: say this is what your great grandparents did. Might not

474
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: be what we believe, but this is what they believed

475
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: without um, you know, going through the motions about something

476
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: that you feel half hearted about because nobody likes that,

477
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: and that's I think sometimes where the resentment comes is

478
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: what people are like, well, I feel obliged, um, and

479
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: so you have to, so we all have to feel obliged,

480
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: you know. I think there's an element of that. And

481
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: I also just thinking all of this for everyone, you know,

482
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: as you're getting serious with someone and starting to think

483
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: about having children, like broach some of these topics. I

484
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: do think it's good to not just be standing over

485
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: the baby and we like, so are we doing that?

486
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we had those conversations months before

487
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: he was born because I knew it was going to

488
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: be like a hot topic and I knew I didn't

489
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: want to have him born. And I'm like, are we

490
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: doing this right here in the hospital with a doctor?

491
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: Are we doing this at home in the traditional with

492
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: the moil? Like how do we feel safe? You know?

493
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: And again I think we maybe might have to do

494
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,479
Speaker 1: a circumcision episode, but I should absolutely because I had

495
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: a female moilette. Wow, that's when they don't feel there's

496
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: not many of them, but yes, yes, and she's a doctor.

497
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing is I mean, my parents made

498
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: me get my ears pierced at the doctor's So so

499
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm always having a medical professional around

500
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: I just in general, not even for like a procedure

501
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: by the woman who knows what degree the earth rotates

502
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: that I literally have no idea. I was like, whoa,

503
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: you're in wrapping up? Yes? Is there anything you would

504
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, give advice in your Helene is? How

505
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: well now she is thirteen months? Is there anything you

506
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: would say in sifting through? Okay? Yes, you and John

507
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: agree in that you are both Mmmm. I would say

508
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: you don't believe you know, you're not devout religious people

509
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: were secular? Yes, which I really feel like I always

510
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: have to secular. I didn't nuncy it. Otherwise there's confusious,

511
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: right secular? Go on? Would you say anything to advise

512
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: people who are in a relationship maybe and raising a child,

513
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: like similar to guys where you are coming from two

514
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: different traditional systems, um and how you sift through that?

515
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: I would say, don't be afraid to invent stuff. Look

516
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: at that, you know I ever thought of that as

517
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: an option truly until this conversation. Oh good, I think

518
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: you know. Everything we celebrate around the world now sits

519
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: atop the shoulders of something that someone celebrated before, right,

520
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, Christmas was Saturnalia once, which was probably stolen

521
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: from something the Etruscans were doing. Every celebration around the

522
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: world has some words and all this stuff that's sort

523
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: of pagan changing of the seasons. Um. You know, if

524
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: you go back far enough in anybody's family, this is

525
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: actually the most traditional kind of celebration because once upon

526
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: a time, this is all we write. There was no

527
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: division between nature and science and religion. It was all

528
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: one beautiful thing. And you know, I think that there's

529
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: something to be said for, like, even if it seems

530
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: like you have profoundly different points of view, there is

531
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: an overlapping element and find that and celebrate more celebrations

532
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: the better I think, you know. And I would say, also,

533
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: just don't lie. And it's okay to say I don't

534
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: know when your kid asks you something, and it's okay

535
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: to say I think this. Somebody else might think something else,

536
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: might think something else, And that's what's so, that's why

537
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: there's so many beautiful stories and stories and legends and

538
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: culture and you know, it's really all an art form.

539
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: And I think it's right. It's like you know, it's

540
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: not like, oh I love this painting and so I

541
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: can have no other paintings, you know what I mean?

542
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: And I I just think, you know, there's beauty and

543
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: all of it, and you know, don't be afraid to

544
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: make something up that takes a little bit of what

545
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: one parent thinks and a little bit of what My

546
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: kid and my husband just showed up because they have

547
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: to see the beautiful Sasta saga. Thank you, Sasha you are.

548
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't wait for this like you have to,

549
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: like when your book comes out. I'm going to devour

550
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: will this has been sold. Yes, Solstice celebration. The access

551
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: of the world rotates it. I don't know what time,

552
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: what time. You're not raised by scientists, you are. You're amazing.

553
00:32:53,240 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: Thank you so much as well so fun. I just

554
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: connect the wonderful yell Stone is that your did you

555
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: take your partner's name? No, you are yyl Stone, which

556
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: is the best name ever. I'm also not married to him, right.

557
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: He is a what do you call him? How do

558
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: you introduce him? Uh? Still working on that. I can

559
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: work shop it. He's the baby daddy nice, He's my

560
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: boyfe He's the guy boyfriends they carrying the baby. I

561
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: love it. Um. So you guys were talking about faith, religion,

562
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: these huge, big trigger words, and that there are a

563
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: lot about how families work about blending them together. And here,

564
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: like I mentioned, we have Yale Stone, she recently gave

565
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: birth to her first child, and Um, I wanted to

566
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: talk to you a little bit how you and your partner,

567
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: the conversations you may have had about planning to raise

568
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: your child and would you consider yourself an interfaith relationship

569
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: or I mean, I know that's like such a title. No, No,

570
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: I guess I wouldn't. I wouldn't speak in those terms.

571
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: I think what we're doing is bringing stories together. And

572
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: Jack and I are both like big, big storytellers that

573
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: you do that for a living, yeah, and he does

574
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: that for a living in a different way. Um. And

575
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, I think the traditions that we come from

576
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: it's also about storytelling. So where do you come from?

577
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: How are we raised? Well? I was raised as a

578
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: Jew and my my grandparents on my father's side came

579
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: to Australia post World War Two. My dad was three

580
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: when he arrived in Australia from Czechoslovakia. UM, and his

581
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: mother survived the camps. She married Czechoslovakian man. Was she

582
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: actually in account Yeah, So my dad's whole family wash

583
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 1: was placed in a kind of guttawise situation. They moved

584
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: out of their home and moved into the homes of

585
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: other people who were murdered and put in a sort

586
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: of prison like situation, and they managed to eke out

587
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: a way to live, sometimes a little under the radar.

588
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: So they lost they only lost their father, So my

589
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: great great grandfather, which is an incredible, an incredible record

590
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: of survival in itself. My father, it was the son

591
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: of a man who I don't know. Um, my grandmother

592
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: decided he was not a good man to be around,

593
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: That's all we know. For whatever reasons, she took my

594
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: three year old Dada from Czechoslovakia what was then Czechoslovakia,

595
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: and got on a boat by herself with herself holy

596
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: ship Australia. Um, probably the most different place you can imagine.

597
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, just know, in all kinds of ways. Um,

598
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: she got there and she had my dad, who was

599
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 1: little Brahman Gunstein in Australia. Like that's his name, that's

600
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: that is no longer his name. His name is Harry Stone,

601
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: like little Blahoma was terribly cute. UM and way way

602
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: his death, I can only imagine how my grandmother felt.

603
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: She later on met and married a man who was

604
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: much older than her, who his name was Misha Stone

605
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: and he's my grandfather. Wow. So he adopted your dad officially. Wow.

606
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: So my dad went from a great dude, you know,

607
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: like great guy, great guy. He's the man I think

608
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: of as my grandfather. And he left Russia in the

609
00:36:54,360 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: very very early nineteen hundreds before before but but but

610
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: still the programs in Russia. So he left for his

611
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: family when he was nineteen. He said goodbye to his family.

612
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: He never saw a single member of his family ever again.

613
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: UM and traveled bounced around the world. He spent some

614
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: time in New York. Actually, UM spent some time in

615
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 1: Israel pre building in Israel, he was a builder. Um.

616
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: He built in New York where I now live half

617
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: of a year, which is kind of magical, right, and

618
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: then came to Australia as a builder, met my grandmother

619
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: adopted my father. So on both on both sides of

620
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: my dad's family, there's this story of people have run

621
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: yeah and they've made it out by themselves and such

622
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: bravery and yeah, yeah, and really and really arrived in

623
00:37:52,760 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: Australia in that diaspra and made a real life, made

624
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: in real life. And then Jack's family, his family is

625
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: Indigenous on his mother's side, so some people are not

626
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 1: terribly familiar, particularly in the United States, with that story.

627
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I know nothing about it. Like it's not

628
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: it's not a happy story. Let's let's start there. So Australia,

629
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: in terms of its colonial history is quite young, and

630
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: basically there will be some some echoes of many colonial

631
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: stories that we hear. Um, So Captain Cook arrived and

632
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: he arrived with a whole bunch of convicts. I've heard

633
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: this about Australia. So so the idea was, we have

634
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: these we have these people, we don't know, our jails

635
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: are overflowing. And they found this place, this terror Nalius,

636
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: this place supposedly without anybody in it, which of course

637
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: is a total myth. Australia was populated by many, many

638
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: different nation groups. Indigenous groups in Australia um often nomadic

639
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: cultures that would move around the land, so you wouldn't

640
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: find things like, um, you know, uh, suburbia, you're not

641
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: finding them. You're finding people that live and work with

642
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: the land right when it's run out or something they

643
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: moved to another place. They're also called very complex um

644
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: kind of farming ideas, cultivating the land, making sure things

645
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: are deeply in balance. So so when you come to it,

646
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: a land like that and you see it deeply in balance,

647
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: people reported it in some ways as empty, um. But

648
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: of course it's full of these rich cultures, very rich,

649
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: diverse language structures, and then all with their own song lines,

650
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: so all with their own traditions, their own dances, their

651
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: own ex all nations of the world, and they're all

652
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: interacting in a very complex way. So so far in

653
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,479
Speaker 1: Australia we have evidence that goes back sixty years. There's

654
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: no way sixty years and there you know, there's a

655
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: suggestion that could be longer than that. So these are

656
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: some of the oldest traditions surviving traditions in the world.

657
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: A very deep, very rich culture. Now what happened, um,

658
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: when this colonial culture arrived in Australia. There was the

659
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: introduction of things like smallpox um. Alcohol uh. And then

660
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: there was just the very purposeful eradication different other life um.

661
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: And you know there are some stories where people there,

662
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, we hold onto tenuous kind of stories about

663
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: about unions that were more fruitful. But across the board,

664
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: it's a violent show, full history, and it continues on

665
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: in that Australia stole children from parents are of indigenous

666
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: people and raised them in a white way. Um. And

667
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: it was this very this idea, this very paternalistic idea

668
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: of you know, will make you white, will make you better.

669
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: And basically what they made were a bunch of people

670
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: who were completely dissociated from their culture from where they

671
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: came from, and they made a lot of indentured servants. UM.

672
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: So in a lot of cases, the language was banned

673
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: and because it's an oral tradition stories and so much

674
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: of the stories in this intricate language um and the

675
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: languages are so many and varied that you kill it,

676
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: you kill it just a little and it's and it's gone. Um.

677
00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a very powerful and in a

678
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: lot of ways has been told as a sad story

679
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: because obviously there's a lot of violence, there's a lot

680
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: of mystery and loss and pain and and this is

681
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: where this is where I kind of bring I guess

682
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: Jack's storytelling in and Jack runs a charity called AIM

683
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: which teaches young Indigenous kids in Australia and has done

684
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: for the last fourteen years to see their aboriginality at strength.

685
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: And he's how cool, it's amazing. So he says, basically,

686
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 1: listen to the inheritance of sixty years of survival. This

687
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: is this is something that lifts you up, it doesn't

688
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: bring you down. Um. So he's been doing that in

689
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: Australia since he was nineteen, retelling that story, you know,

690
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: reminding people know this is not this is not a weakness.

691
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: This is a strength. Um. And now he's taking it

692
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: all around the world and this is going to I

693
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 1: mean wow, I mean Jack sounds awesome. B this is

694
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: going to be this is like a huge part of

695
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: your piled upbringing exactly is going to be exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

696
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: So this retelling of of strength and power to this

697
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: little person who's the recipient of this European Jewish story

698
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: and this Indigenous story. Um. And you know Jack's dad

699
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 1: is white. I am white pau. Our daughter has white

700
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: skin and a traditional Indigenous name. So how do you

701
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: spell it? P E m a U. It's beautiful, Thank you,

702
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: thank you. And of course it's really difficult, people like,

703
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: oh my god, what name. You're like, okay, her name

704
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: is Pamu, and they're like, oh does it mean? What

705
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: is it? So she Pau is our baby's great great

706
00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: great great great grandmother and Pau was the only survivor

707
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: of the only female survivor of a huge massacre of

708
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 1: his family, of his tribe, the Bungalo people, which are

709
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: in the north west part of New South Wales in Australia.

710
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: Shouldn't that mean anything? But she that is? That is

711
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: the story that Jack's mom has told us. And and

712
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: and you know, pretty early on we said, if if

713
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: this baby is a girl, that would be the name.

714
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: And and it's a kind of heavy inheritance, right, but

715
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: it's we retell the story differently, and it's it's a

716
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: story of survival and pride and without that woman, you know, Bronwyn,

717
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: Jack's mom isn't here, Jack smart here Jack's sisters. And

718
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: it's the same in a kind of similar parallel way

719
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: to your story. And that and so many stories I

720
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 1: hear with people, you know, with Jewish roots. It's it's

721
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: a lot of times family would move and change their name,

722
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: you know, they were. You can you can spend the

723
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: story either way of it being a really negative thing

724
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: and something that you know, people used to move anywhere

725
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: to America Australia being Jewish and try to hide it,

726
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 1: pretend to be other. You know, you we were talking yesterday.

727
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: You hear these stories of people doing twenty three and

728
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 1: me with that are super super wide or raised non Jews,

729
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: and they find out they have a little bit in

730
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: them and it's because someone back then pretended they weren't.

731
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: But what's great is you're taking both of your stories

732
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: and really making them so beautiful and powerful, and it's

733
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: about strength and survival. And I think, you know, when

734
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: we tell stories, I'm sort of solidifying this idea of

735
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: my life at the moment. We tell stories for two reasons,

736
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: to either tell the world who we are or tell

737
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 1: ourselves who the world is. You know, and our names

738
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: are the first story we tell um. So we're tiny

739
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 1: little people and we learned you know, mama and daddy,

740
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: and but then we learned how to say our own name.

741
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: And for me, yeah, l you know, in Australia it's

742
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: even less common than it might be here, and and

743
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: it was kind of this great struggle as a kid,

744
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: and people said it wrong, and people spelled you know,

745
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: my teachers spelled it wrong. For I spell my name wrong.

746
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: For he is because people are like, what the hell

747
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: is this name? Um? And and in But in that story,

748
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: even in the Stale is a very Jewish name. Were

749
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: you named after somebody or were you know I was?

750
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: I was named after my My parents lived in Israel

751
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: for a time. It was a really special time for them.

752
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 1: Um and my mom they were on a kid boods.

753
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: My mom looked after a little girl whose name was

754
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: yale And and they liked her very much, and they

755
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: were like, well, this is the third kid. We've run

756
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: out of ideas. Let's go with yale Um. But but

757
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: for me, it's very complicated because I'm not a practicing Jew.

758
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: I am proud of where my family come from. I

759
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 1: feel Jewish, but I'm not practicing, right, But I'll still

760
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: go to Sydney book. So so in something you're like,

761
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: you feel culturally Jewish and not maybe religiously. Um And

762
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: I feel that deeply in the ways that I think

763
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: in uh, the interactions I have with the world, that

764
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: the framework that I'm coming from, that lens that I'm

765
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: looking through feels very Jewish. Um. But for me, the

766
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: religiosity of it, it doesn't feel right, doesn't sit well.

767
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: And I had a whole moment with that when I

768
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: was coming up to do and I said to my dad, Hey, look,

769
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: I don't feel it. I don't feel it, and I

770
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: think it feels wrong to stand up in front in

771
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: front of a group of people and say, oh, this

772
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: is who I am. What did your dad say? Well, well,

773
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: he had always he had raised me in this way.

774
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: That was a very direct conversation about almost kind of

775
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: adult conversation about ideas, back and forth, questioning things, and

776
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: in a way he kind of he kind of shut

777
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: himself in the boot because here he was sitting with

778
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: this twelve year old who had a pretty reason argument,

779
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: which was like I don't think it's right to stand

780
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: up and lie about this thing, um. And he had

781
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: to say, well, I I've raised I've raised you to

782
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: be able to speak and think in this way, and

783
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: this is one of the fruits of that kind of thinking. Um.

784
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: So I don't know how he feels about that. I'm

785
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: sure it was pretty heartbreaking. You know. My brother and

786
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: my sister, who were older than me went through the

787
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: whole process and and I didn't. And wow, so you

788
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: decided you were not by Yeah, Wow, that's that's pretty

789
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: ballsy for a twelve year old. Oh I was really

790
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: like that's really that's so will you raise as precaucious? Yes? Like,

791
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: is she going to grow up going to synagogue? Are

792
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: there indigenous rituals and traditions? You know, I know that

793
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: Jack is ancestrally Aboriginal, but was did was he raised

794
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: it all with other faith? Did he celebrate Christmas? Did

795
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: he celebrate Easter or any of these traditions or what

796
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: else is in there? Yeah, such a great question. It's

797
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: so complicated. I'm sure that this is like everyone's well,

798
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: what's really cool about this this world right now we

799
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: live in? It's it's I mean, there's just a lot

800
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: of I'm around. I've said this before, but like, so,

801
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: my husband is a practicing Jewish man. I'm was really

802
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: raised atheist by my parents, and then my nanny, who

803
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: is a very very important part of my family structure

804
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: with my son, is very very a Christian um you know,

805
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: reads the Bible every day. And so we're a functioning

806
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: group of three adults. Like raising a child, and what

807
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: does that look like when holidays come around or when

808
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 1: the child old enough to ask really difficult questions. Um,

809
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: so this episode is really, again a selfish way of

810
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: figuring out how the hell other people are doing it?

811
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: You are telling stories and yeah, like doing yeah, so

812
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 1: what do you what do you plan to do? Are

813
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: their plans? Are you figuring out? Did you have these

814
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,479
Speaker 1: conversations before while you were pregnant? Like I'm clearly lying

815
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: when I say I have the gigue out because I

816
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: have nothing and think none of us do it. I

817
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: kind of feel like anyone who says they've got it

818
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: entirely figured out, you should back slowly. I think that

819
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: PIML will have the opportunity to learn about everything and

820
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: the opportunity to engage with it um actively and and

821
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: we're going to bring those opportunities to her again and

822
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: again and again as she grows up, and then ultimately

823
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: there will come a time where she works out where

824
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,959
Speaker 1: things sit with her um and and that will be

825
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: her own choice. Um. You know, so are you going

826
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: to offer her Like because I think about this, I'm like, well, okay,

827
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: he's gonna You know, my grandmother is one of the

828
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: closest people in the world to me, and she's incredibly

829
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: Irish Catholic and I love Christmas with her. I just do.

830
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: And like, while she's here on this earth, like that's

831
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: what we're doing, while she's here in my life, Like

832
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: that's what we're doing. Um. And then I think, you know,

833
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: Obartmas was very important to my husband's parents. But so

834
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask my kid, are you down with

835
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: Hebrew School? Like what out of no idea, what I'm

836
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: gonna do? Like are we gonna get I don't wonderfully, yes,

837
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: like do you it's really postmodern? Yeah, it's crazy, Like

838
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: it's just really I never and you know, Adam and

839
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: I have been together for twelve years and it's always

840
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: been fine and fun, and we tend to do the

841
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: things that are fun. We tend to do the ones

842
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: that involved like like drinking and yelling and yeah, like

843
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: we love all that stuff. Um. But I do think

844
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: when you have a child it really does change things

845
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: because I think you really, Um, I think that people

846
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: when he you know, when he gets asked what he is, like,

847
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: what will he say? I don't know. Yeah, Well, identity

848
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: is many beautiful and very thing. As we move forward right,

849
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: like it's it's not it's not one. And see that

850
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,359
Speaker 1: was only three months, so you haven't really like been

851
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: through like a holiday season with her yet. I'm not

852
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: sure what Australia is like a Christmas, but like is

853
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: it similar where like the carols are it's very hard?

854
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: Are there carols on in the stores the minute? Thanksgiving? Oh,

855
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,919
Speaker 1: you don't have Thanksgiving? We don't have Thanksgiving? Me never giving?

856
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: Thanks ps. That holiday is the most confused. And we

857
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 1: talked about this all the time, like we like, it's

858
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: very it's dark. It's so dark, it's so so so

859
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: so dark. It's so so dark. It's so dark, but

860
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: we have it's it's Look, I'm sure it's many things

861
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: for many people. Um, you can't avoid it. And in

862
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: the same way, um, I want to de emphasize presence

863
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,959
Speaker 1: for her that I find the whole presence thing a lot.

864
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: That's amazing, good for you. So what does that mean?

865
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 1: It's so over fucking well man, Like what the fuck?

866
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: Like I cannot take it? So what will you do?

867
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 1: Give her one thing? I give her nothing? Well, I

868
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: don't know. I think it's more about like the other

869
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: people in your life, right, like you, how do you

870
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: control parents because they get that look in their eyes.

871
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: Please let me spoil them, Like, yes, of course, it's

872
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: kind of vampurrey, right, because I'm new to it. I'm

873
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: like looking at my mother and my father and just

874
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: like you guys are different. What happened? They're taking their

875
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: mind their grandparents. Yes, they're just sort of graspy. And

876
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: so have you gone through So you haven't had a

877
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: hank again. No, look, we haven't done anything yet. We

878
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: haven't done anything. And this still probably reeling from the

879
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: shock of the fact that we had a baby and

880
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: then left Australia two months after that. So it's been

881
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: a bit of a wild ride, like we've done because

882
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 1: we're gonna go back to work so early. Yeah, exactly. Well,

883
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: let me tell you, as a new mom going through

884
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 1: a holiday season, it makes you turn into a psychopath.

885
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: Like I can't believe who I became his first Christmas again,

886
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: I am not practicing Catholic Christians, Like I don't know

887
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: much about it, like dressing. God, I'm running around to

888
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 1: the Mariah Carey's Christmas album at the top of my lung,

889
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: drinking eg and like but like I couldn't have been

890
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 1: more in the Christmas spirit with my child because I

891
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: was so jolly, Like I truly was, Like I was

892
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: so and it was so I was so excited to

893
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: have that with my parents. And here's my super Jewish husband, Like,

894
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: what in the fucking hell is going on? But let's

895
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 1: not shipped on your joy. Yes, yeah, but it was great.

896
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: It was great. It was great, And I really I

897
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: don't know, like what would I mean, It's just going

898
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: to be this really crazy ride, I guess, and I

899
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: guess we figured out as we go. When now asks

900
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 1: you a tough question, what are you going to say?

901
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to explain that that I that notion of

902
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: stories and storytelling and where we come from, and that

903
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: that as she grows up, it's it's kind of the

904
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 1: journey of our lives to tell our stories. And as

905
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: we collect characters along the way, we weave them in

906
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: uh and and as we talk to people who are

907
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: important to us, we start to understand ourselves. So she

908
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: talks to her Barbin, which is Jack's mother. Um, she

909
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: will have stories to tell her that that will have

910
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: a richness that will inform her stories along the way. Um,

911
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 1: She'll she'll go and be part of community that won't

912
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: be open to me. Um, and that's completely okay with

913
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: with me. You know, she has a different blood story

914
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: and it's a different story to me, and that's okay. Um.

915
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: It's it's actually giving someone's space to carve what feels

916
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: right to them, you know. And she has this incredibly

917
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: long name. Her name is Pam Manning Stone Bancroft. And

918
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: in that that is beautiful. We were on set the

919
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: other day and Kate more Group and plays Red was like,

920
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: now this is not can you imagine her at preschool?

921
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: My name is Mint. After We're like, okay, great challenge.

922
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: But it's so beautiful because name, you have this real

923
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 1: in investment in where she comes from and that she's

924
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: so it's so awesome that she's here, and that she's

925
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: a mix of all these amazing people who made it

926
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: absolutely and you know, in in arriving on this wonderfully

927
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 1: complicated earth at this wonderfully complicated time, you know, she

928
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: her birth story wasn't particularly easy. She she wasn't breathing

929
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 1: when she arrived and and she and herself re enacted

930
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: this strength and this survival immediately, you know. And then

931
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: she looked up at us with these eyes that said

932
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: like I see you, and I see you, and I'm here.

933
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: It was the clear, It was the clearest message I've

934
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: ever received in my own wife. And and and that's like,

935
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: that's the moment her story begins, That's the moment her

936
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 1: survival begins. Wow. Yeahl if there is anything you could

937
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: say to couples out there who are maybe parenting and

938
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: weaving different stories or the same stories, they're totally in line,

939
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: but maybe they're feeling challenged because their kid doesn't feel

940
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: the same way, or I don't know, is there any

941
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: little nugget, no pressure that you have found helpful. I

942
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: think I can only think of my my childhood and

943
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: and think of the richness that I got from from

944
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: the tradition that I was raised in. And even though

945
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: in some ways I suppose I've rejected some parts of that,

946
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean there's no value in that in that story.

947
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: Even in the act of saying you know, this doesn't

948
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: feel right to me, you still start somewhere, and you

949
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:51,959
Speaker 1: start with something to work from. UM. So, I think

950
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: a strong position isn't a bad thing. UM. I think

951
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: a level of rigorous interaction with these ideas is good.

952
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 1: I don't think we should avoid them. And we have

953
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: a human history has a long notion of trying to

954
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 1: identify itself in all different kinds of ways, so we

955
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: will always grasp to do that. Um. And whether it's

956
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: as I said, in opposition to something that's given to

957
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: you or really taking on board an identity that's given

958
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: to you, UM, that's crucial. And you know, I know

959
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: when Jack and I have talked about his his experience

960
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: with his aboriginality, that the key thing for him. And

961
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 1: this will be different for for everybody else. And you

962
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: know I speak only from what he's told me, but

963
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: for him, being around other Aboriginal people that's the most

964
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: important thing for him. So just sharing that proximity, sharing

965
00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: that conversation, sharing that space. Um. And for other people,

966
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: perhaps it's engaging with the text or going to a place.

967
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: All these things have richness and value. Value. Yeah, that's

968
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: so beautiful. I cannot thank you enough. E. L. Stone,

969
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: mother of Pimal Manning Stone Vancroft, the beautiful mother of

970
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: the beautiful Panale. Thank you for being on Katie's crib

971
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: so much for having me. Thank you guys so much

972
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 1: for listening and for your amazing feedback and tweets and

973
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: messages and reviews and sharing Katie's Crib with your friends

974
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 1: and your family. It means so so much to me,

975
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: so please keep it coming and check us out on

976
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: Shawn the Lamb dot com. Make sure to subscribe so

977
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 1: you never miss an episode. We're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher,

978
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: and wherever you get your podcasts.