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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I had to take a little break.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to see any vodka. I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to look at snow because this was This has been

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Speaker 1: a heck of a case for us so far. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember everything we talked about last week, every detail,

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Speaker 1: including the correct Russian names?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You basically have a team of Russian

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Speaker 2: students that are going out into the middle of nowhere

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Speaker 2: up in Siberia and the mountains at high altitude. It

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Speaker 2: appears they establish a base camp and something happens where

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Speaker 2: now they're being forced away from this tent. And we

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Speaker 2: got to the point to where four of the nine

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Speaker 2: from this team were found and they were found dead.

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Speaker 2: Two were found by a campfire, and they had evidence

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Speaker 2: that they had been beaten, maybe torture, and then you

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Speaker 2: have two others were found even further away up the

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Speaker 2: side of the mountain with similar types of injuries. However,

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Speaker 2: none of the injuries. Still, the four victims were determined

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Speaker 2: to be fatal, and the experts said that all four

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Speaker 2: probably lived through their injuries but died of exposure out there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you did an excellent job, I would say, of

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Speaker 1: wrapping that hala up. And then we've got five more

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Speaker 1: people and a lot of theories floating out there starting

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty nine all the way until now recently.

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Speaker 1: So let's pick it back up with the search. So

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Speaker 1: we know that we found Yuri and Kreva and Igor

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Speaker 1: and Zena. Now we are back to our search. So

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Speaker 1: this is now March second. We found the four bodies

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Speaker 1: on February twenty sixth, and on February twenty seventh, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so about three or four days later we have another

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Speaker 1: discovery there is another Upi group, which is the university

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Speaker 1: where a lot of them went. Mancy Shaman, you know

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Speaker 1: the Mansi group as an indigenous group that lived in

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Speaker 1: the area also, and they find another tent that the

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Speaker 1: group had constructed in late January before they went to

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Speaker 1: that barren slope where the big tent was found. So

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Speaker 1: nearby is what's called a labase. Have you heard of that?

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Speaker 1: I had not, No, So it's a large food storage

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Speaker 1: platform above the ground, so it's a campsite. A little

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Speaker 1: more than half a mile away from that is a

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Speaker 1: Mansie chum, which is a little temporary dwelling almost like

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Speaker 1: a tepee. And I have photos of those if you're

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Speaker 1: interested in looking at them. But we are not far

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Speaker 1: also from where we find our next victim.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if I need to see the

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Speaker 2: Mancy Chum unless there's actual evidence found in there. For me,

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Speaker 2: it's interesting that this tent they determined was constructed before

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Speaker 2: the other tent, So this is showing the sequence of

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Speaker 2: how they traveled, if you will. And they left a

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Speaker 2: tent in place and then moved on. Okay, and it.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like nearby I don't think they built this labase.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they were using someone else's we

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Speaker 1: don't know right now or this chum, but assuming they're

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Speaker 1: reading this from journals, also the description of the way

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Speaker 1: the group has been traveling.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 1: So the day after the autopsis on the first four

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Speaker 1: were done, they find another one of the hikers. His

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Speaker 1: name is Ruth's Teak, and he is found on the

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Speaker 1: slope that is just a half a mile from the

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Speaker 1: cedar tree, so he's close to Igor and Zena, but

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Speaker 1: they did not find him initially. When they found Igor

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Speaker 1: and Zena. Rus's Teak is found lying face down and

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Speaker 1: it looks like he too had been trying to get

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Speaker 1: back to the final shelter. So you know, this is

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Speaker 1: just like a mile from the large tent that had

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Speaker 1: been collapsed and cut, and his head was pointed kind

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Speaker 1: of towards that tent, and it looked like he had

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Speaker 1: been kind of trying to get back to it, is

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Speaker 1: what they say. His head is angled backwards, his left

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Speaker 1: arm is drawn back but straight, His right arm is

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Speaker 1: bent at the elbow, his fingers are clenched, and both

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Speaker 1: legs are bent. His body covers an icy patch, indicating

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Speaker 1: that he remained alive for a short while laying in

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Speaker 1: the snow. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me

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Speaker 1: in a second what that means. His watch is eight

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Speaker 1: forty five.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think there really isn't anything that

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Speaker 2: stands out about the actual positioning of these bodies, you know,

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Speaker 2: this with what we're seeing with Rustique, I mean that

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Speaker 2: just sounds like, you know, a position that he could

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Speaker 2: have collapsed into. You know that the clenched hands that

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Speaker 2: we've seen with several of the victims, this just made

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Speaker 2: result of them trying to keep their fingers warm, right,

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Speaker 2: So it's probably not indicative of any any type of

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Speaker 2: fisticuffs that they were involved with at the time of

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Speaker 2: their deaths. So I think the you know, the ice

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Speaker 2: found underneath Roostik, you know, and what they the conclusion

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Speaker 2: that they are drawing is that he stayed alive for

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Speaker 2: a period of time. Well, he's falling, his body still warm,

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Speaker 2: it's melting the snow that where he's laying, and then

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Speaker 2: of course he dies and then his body goes cold,

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Speaker 2: and then that melted snow just turns to ice. That's

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Speaker 2: how I'm interpreting that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he is the most warmly dressed so far

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Speaker 1: of this whole group of the five people who have

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Speaker 1: been found. So he's got a hat and a jersey on,

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Speaker 1: and a several different shirts and a cotton sweater. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, he's still not the way he

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Speaker 1: should be dressed, the way he should be out in

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Speaker 1: this cold. He has socks on, but he has one boot,

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Speaker 1: black felt boot. So here are the injuries that they

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Speaker 1: can see. His head on both sides is badly bruised.

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Speaker 1: Across his face and arms are abrasions and scratches, as

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Speaker 1: well as dry blood. The right half of his face

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Speaker 1: and his lips are swollen. His fingers have third and

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Speaker 1: fourth degree frostbite. The skin on his feet is water rotted.

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Speaker 1: His May eighth autopsy shows that he suffered a fall

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Speaker 1: or was hit on the head because his left frontal

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Speaker 1: lobe had been fractured, causing an internal hemorrhage. Like the

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Speaker 1: other victims, they say none of these injuries would have

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Speaker 1: been fatal, and there is liver mortis on his back

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Speaker 1: even though he was found face down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he just like the other four, he's being

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Speaker 2: beat It sounds, you know, his state address is entirely

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Speaker 2: consistent with probably he's in the process of taking off

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Speaker 2: his heavy you know, winter gear, you know, and is interrupted,

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Speaker 2: he still has one boot on. It doesn't sound like,

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Speaker 2: you know, whoever did this to these victims didn't allow

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Speaker 2: Rustique to you know, put a boot on, you know,

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Speaker 2: so that that might be indicative that you know, he

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Speaker 2: had come in from the cold and has taken off

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Speaker 2: his outer garments when being interrupted, or he you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe he gets a chance to put put a boot on,

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Speaker 2: but then he's marched out into the cold, and it

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Speaker 2: sounds like maybe because he's a little bit warmer dressed,

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Speaker 2: he was able to get further towards that original tent.

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Speaker 2: But then he's found. After he dies, the liviidity sets

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Speaker 2: and he's face up and then he's rolled over for

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Speaker 2: some reason, and it may just be a check is

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Speaker 2: this guy alive, you know? Or is he dead?

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Speaker 1: Let's continue on because now we're missing four people and

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Speaker 1: now we're having an investigation kickoff that is going to

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Speaker 1: be prejudiced pretty quickly. Remember I told you about the

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Speaker 1: Mansie people, the indigenous people who were there. I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you about them a little bit. They are semi nomadic

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Speaker 1: reindeer herders, and they're fisher people. They're indigenous to western Siberia.

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Speaker 1: And of course, because of what I told you about

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Speaker 1: the chum and the food storage space that people knew

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Speaker 1: was Mansie, they're immediately targeted. And there are rumors that

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Speaker 1: they had murdered these hikers because maybe the hikers had

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Speaker 1: trespassed on their sacred land. And there's another theory that

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Speaker 1: the Mansie murdered the hikers for sacrificial use in a ritual.

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Speaker 1: And so this, you know, kind of really gets into

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Speaker 1: some of the wilder theories. But we still have four

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Speaker 1: more people to find.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, at least with the victims that have been found

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Speaker 2: the way that they were, you know, beat and then

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Speaker 2: die from this exposure. I mean, this doesn't sound anything

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Speaker 2: like the Mansi trying to get people for their rituals.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's laughable as far as I'm concerned. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know anything about the sacred land aspect, but

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Speaker 2: also it's you know, what has been happening over time

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Speaker 2: at this location. Is there anything that predates this particular

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Speaker 2: crime in which they can point at and say, well,

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Speaker 2: this is something that we know the Mansie do you know?

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Speaker 2: And I think from just a pure investigative standpoint, you

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Speaker 2: have to consider the Mansie because you know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: really a limited suspect pool out here in the middle

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Speaker 2: of nowhere in Hyperia. Yeah, you know, but you know,

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Speaker 2: right now, I'm not feeling the Mansie, you know, unless

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Speaker 2: you know, we find these other four bodies and there's

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Speaker 2: something about what's happening to these other four bodies that go,

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Speaker 2: oh okay, let's reconsider what happened.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's some there's some sort of just

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Speaker 1: practical aspects to crossing the Mansies off the list, one

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Speaker 1: of which is, you know, they don't have any sacred

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Speaker 1: places or stones at this location. And I think what

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Speaker 1: what Russians and the locals also think is that they've

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Speaker 1: always been very kind people. They've never been known to

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Speaker 1: be violent, and they have been helping with the search. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, they helped guide these people in to begin with,

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Speaker 1: to this area. And so you have these people who

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Speaker 1: are heavily involved in trying to find the missing hikers.

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Speaker 1: So it's prejudice at that point.

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Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, potentially, I mean with any population, you

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Speaker 2: can have, you know, somebody that is will you say,

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Speaker 2: exceptional criminality, Yeah, you know, no matter how peaceful a

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Speaker 2: part of particular population is you know, so, I think

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Speaker 2: that's something that would have to be considered. I just

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Speaker 2: I go back to the journals being classified. If that

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Speaker 2: is factual, why is the government hiding the details within

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Speaker 2: these journals. It just doesn't make sense if like, let's

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Speaker 2: say the Mansies are responsible for these homicides or these deaths,

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Speaker 2: if you will.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well hold on to your hat.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: The next theory is mysterious lights. Multiple people, including the Mansies,

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Speaker 1: say that there were inexplicable flashes of light in the

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Speaker 1: area around the time the hikers disappeared. So throughout February

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Speaker 1: and March, there are multiple reports from the Russians and

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Speaker 1: from the indigenous people of large rings or balls of fire,

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Speaker 1: and you have to pay attention to this because this

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Speaker 1: could lead to something actually significant. They're enveloped in a

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Speaker 1: white fog some of the time, they're moving and changing

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Speaker 1: in diameter and intensity, and one report described before hiding

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Speaker 1: behind the horizon, from the center of the ring appeared

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Speaker 1: as star, which gradually increased to the size of the moon.

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Speaker 1: It was wider at the front and narrower at the back,

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Speaker 1: with a tail, and there were sparks flying off of it,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was a comment, but I think people

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Speaker 1: knew what comets were in nineteen fifty nine, so it

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Speaker 1: must not have been a comet. Will play into more

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Speaker 1: plausible theories later on.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's it's interesting from you know today, they're

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Speaker 2: referred to as UAPs unidentified aerial phenomena, you know, and

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Speaker 2: there's been a lot of released military footage of craft

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Speaker 2: that can't be explained, and some of these UAPs have

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Speaker 2: you know, these mysterious light aspects to them, you know,

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Speaker 2: And of course it's like, well, is this something that

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Speaker 2: is you know, secret technology that the United States or

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Speaker 2: you know, out there in Siberia, the Soviets were we're

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Speaker 2: playing with, you know, and and could that be a

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Speaker 2: reason why you know this these students end up going

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Speaker 2: out to where the Soviets are conducting some sort of secret,

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Speaker 2: you know, testing. I want to dismiss that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the description of this light is kind of fantastic, but

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I kind of we still just I

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Speaker 2: think I just have to keep things grounded in the

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Speaker 2: foundation that well, we have at this point five victims

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Speaker 2: that have been beat they've been forced out of their tent,

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Speaker 2: they die of exposure in addition to the criminal violence.

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Speaker 2: They're not being vaporized by some spacecraft. You know. It's

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Speaker 2: I'll be curious to see how this story unfolds. I've

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Speaker 2: seen enough in the UAP side that it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: there might be some credibility there that I used to

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Speaker 2: just dismiss.

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Speaker 1: So this is what I'm going to do. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to tell you about our next scene, and then I'm

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Speaker 1: going to show you a map that shows all of

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Speaker 1: the scenes together because I'm trying to get a better

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Speaker 1: sense of the distance between you know, these spots that

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Speaker 1: they don't seem more than a mile to two miles

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Speaker 1: away from each other, and you know, these are folks

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Speaker 1: that are used to hiking very very long way. So

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Speaker 1: we are in a holding pattern for basically all of

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Speaker 1: March and all of April because the snow is so

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Speaker 1: thick that nobody can find anything. So they haven't given up,

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Speaker 1: it's just that they've had to suspend the searches for

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Speaker 1: a while. In May, the snow starts to melt, and

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Speaker 1: on May fifth, there is a man see shaman and

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Speaker 1: his dog. They see cut branches along the tree line

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Speaker 1: which form a trail, so they follow it about one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five feet and they find clothing. They

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Speaker 1: find a pair of black cotton pants and it's missing

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Speaker 1: the right leg, and then the left half of a

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Speaker 1: woman's sweater. And we now have the search team back

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Speaker 1: out from this school and about ten feet ten feet

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Speaker 1: below the snow, they find the bed of a den

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Speaker 1: like a hiker's den, and it's covered with fur and

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Speaker 1: birch branches and scrapes of tattered clothes thing and the

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Speaker 1: right leg of a black cotton sweatpants and some sweater

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Speaker 1: parts and some trousers. And then fifty feet from this

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Speaker 1: den is a spoon, and then there's also a knife sheath,

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Speaker 1: and then they find four more bodies, but this is

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Speaker 1: ten feet of snow. The bodies are found eight feet

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Speaker 1: below the snow and sixty five feet from where they

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Speaker 1: found this den, where they were pretty certain these four

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Speaker 1: people were staying. The only way they find the bodies

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Speaker 1: is they use an avalanche probe. We've seen in variations

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Speaker 1: in some of these cases, they are punching around and

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Speaker 1: they hit flesh and they find the other four. So

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Speaker 1: they find Kolia and then the second woman, Luda Sasha

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Speaker 1: and another Sasha. So I think I'm saying, Sasha K

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Speaker 1: and Sasha Z, both men, and they are found laying

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Speaker 1: face down in a stream, a rocky stream bed of

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Speaker 1: the Low's Va River. And then I can tell you

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Speaker 1: about their body positioning and all that other stuff, and

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Speaker 1: then you can look at the map if you want.

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Speaker 1: If this might be a good time for you to

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Speaker 1: also look at the map.

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Speaker 2: It would be seen diagrams in Yes.

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Speaker 1: I find the first one confusing, but the second one

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Speaker 1: I think gives you a little bit of a better

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Speaker 1: idea of where everybody is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely was envisioning something very different in terms

290
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Speaker 2: of how these bodies were located to each other. But

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Speaker 2: fundamentally this map, yeah, I guess i'd call it a map.

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Speaker 2: It's showing the damaged tent in the upper left hand corner,

293
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Speaker 2: and then in the lower right hand corner is the

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Speaker 2: creek and that's where this current four sets of bodies

295
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Speaker 2: are found. And then in between the tent and those

296
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Speaker 2: four bodies are the bodies of the other five that

297
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Speaker 2: lead up to this cedar tree with the broken branches.

298
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Speaker 2: So that linear pattern, I guess what would make sense

299
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Speaker 2: in terms of you know, they're being marched in a

300
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Speaker 2: certain direction the four bodies. It sounds like those four,

301
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Speaker 2: you know, were able to construct a shelter you know,

302
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Speaker 2: in the snow and survived for a period of time.

303
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Speaker 2: Now under that scenario, then I would not expect them

304
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Speaker 2: to you know, have been beaten and everything else. But

305
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Speaker 2: you're going to be telling me, you know, what the

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Speaker 2: autopsy results are, right, I.

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Speaker 1: Am, And I wanted to look real quick. There's a

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Speaker 1: diagram at the end of that that talks about a

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Speaker 1: wind slab, and I think that that is the den

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Speaker 1: that they're talking about, or do you think that's something different?

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Speaker 2: That makes sense? In essence, it looks like they found

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Speaker 2: a ridge in the snow that they may have even

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Speaker 2: you know, enhanced, and then there's a tent that's put

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Speaker 2: down into this gully, if you will. So they're using

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Speaker 2: this snow bank as a wind shelter. So it's just

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Speaker 2: maybe a survivalist skill, you know, that they knew how

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Speaker 2: to enact. Yeah, And you know, I guess the question

318
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Speaker 2: is is did they is this something that was built

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Speaker 2: that they knew about and they headed in that direction

320
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Speaker 2: after they got forced out of the other tent and

321
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Speaker 2: they're you know, underwear basically, or did they construct this

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Speaker 2: after they had been marched out to that original tent.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me give you the autopsy results and clothing

324
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Speaker 1: and all that good stuff, and maybe we'll have a

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Speaker 1: better idea. I mean, I don't think that. I think

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Speaker 1: they must have dug this den, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the sequences just yet. So I had

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Speaker 1: said before, they're laying face down in a stream bed.

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Speaker 1: The men's heads are in the direction of the streams current,

330
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Speaker 1: so going with the current. Luda is her name. Luda

331
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Speaker 1: is laying on a natural leg, her mouth is a gape,

332
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Speaker 1: and her head is directed against the current. Water flows

333
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Speaker 1: over her. All the victims are badly decomposed, and all

334
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Speaker 1: have suffered violent and catastrophic injuries, they say, And then

335
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Speaker 1: I can give you more information. But the note is

336
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Speaker 1: nobody has a penetrating wound anywhere.

337
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Speaker 2: If we back up to when this all likely happened,

338
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Speaker 2: back in you know, end of January, beginning of February,

339
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Speaker 2: that creek is not flowing right, that's solid ground, it's ice,

340
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Speaker 2: you know, it's snow. So my senses is that those

341
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Speaker 2: bodies ended up at this location when it was just

342
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Speaker 2: it was just snow. And then of course, now out

343
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Speaker 2: in May, things are starting to melt. There's now this

344
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Speaker 2: creek and those bodies are are in the water. I

345
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Speaker 2: guess I'm curious about, Yeah, this shelter. You know, did

346
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Speaker 2: they live in that shelter for or some significant period

347
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Speaker 2: of time before they ended up dead? But with the

348
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: catastrophic injuries that you're talking about, you know, maybe they

349
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Speaker 2: got away after the initial abduction and then somebody tracked

350
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Speaker 2: them down later and sounds like I don't know what

351
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Speaker 2: the autopsy results are, but sounds like injured them.

352
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Speaker 1: So let's start with Luda. Let's talk first about what

353
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Speaker 1: she was wearing. She has a knitted kind of underhelmet cap,

354
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Speaker 1: cotton bra. She's in a T shirt, checkered shirt. She's

355
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Speaker 1: got a sweater, you know, not particularly warmly dressed. One

356
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Speaker 1: of the sweaters belonged to Kreva, who was our first victim.

357
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Speaker 1: At the top. On the bottom, she's wearing men's satin briefs,

358
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Speaker 1: a gray woman's belt with garter bands, lights, brown cotton stockings,

359
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: black cotton tights and cotton pants, and our feet. She's

360
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Speaker 1: wearing two pairs of cotton and wool socks. Her left

361
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 1: leg is wrapped in a grapped from a wool sweater

362
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: and a sock. Her tights and pants are both torn,

363
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: and in some places her pants are burned. And I

364
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: was just thinking about the tent. We haven't found pieces

365
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Speaker 1: of the tent yet if they cut it themselves to

366
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Speaker 1: wrap something in, you know, I have not read about

367
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Speaker 1: the tent, so I don't know what happened to those pieces, Luda. Also,

368
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Speaker 1: her face is a yellow brown, extremely disfigured, soft tissues missing,

369
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Speaker 1: you know, as would be expected. Her left cheekbone and

370
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: other facial skull bones are exposed. Her nasal cartilage is flattened,

371
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: her eye sockets are empty. The tissue of her upper

372
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: lip is missing, exposing her teeth. Her chest is crushed,

373
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: her left thigh is bruised, and her hands and feet

374
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: are gray and purplish in hue, and they have water rot.

375
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Speaker 1: So is that all decoop position? Being in the snow

376
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Speaker 1: for months.

377
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Speaker 2: There's no question that there's a fair amount of decomposition happening.

378
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if some of this, you know,

379
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: lost tissue around the face, the eyes missing, I mean,

380
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,479
Speaker 2: there could be some animal activity that's that's occurring, you know.

381
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 2: And again I don't know what types of animals are

382
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 2: out there. You know, you could even have certain types

383
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 2: of birds that may be you know, feeding on these

384
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 2: now exposed bodies with the injuries. You know, her chest

385
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: is crushed, as is what you said. You know that.

386
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure if that could be you know,

387
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: the compression as a result of being you know, buried

388
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 2: under you know, a tremendous amount of snow, or if

389
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 2: there's something else going on there. But it's just you know,

390
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 2: for me, I think what I want to try to

391
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 2: tease out is, well, what exactly is the sequence? Their

392
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: state of dress is just like the other victims state

393
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 2: of dress, you know, and we know that they made

394
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: it out to that what I'm going to call the

395
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 2: base camp where all the you know, the heavy gear

396
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: is and the skis and everything else. And now these

397
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 2: four appear to make it out to this secondary tent location.

398
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 2: They're experienced hikers, they've been out there for a period

399
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: of time. They probably headed towards that when they were

400
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: afforded the opportunity to knowing that was their best chance

401
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: to survive for as long as possible. But the injuries

402
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: that they have, you know, it's like Okay, how do

403
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: all nine end up getting beat and then some are

404
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: are let to, you know, wander off. You know, it's

405
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: a very curious set of circumstances, it is.

406
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: And we have a couple of more watches, okay, which

407
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: is interesting. That gives us some time. So let me

408
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: first tell you about Kolia heat and along with one

409
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: of the Sashas, they're both the best stressed. Lots of

410
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 1: clothing on. There's a warm sweater, you know, they've got

411
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: fur lined jackets on. They're the warmest out of everybody.

412
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you about Sasha, one of the Sashas

413
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: in a minute. He has a fur hat on Koya. Now,

414
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: the clothing is interesting. So remember I told you that

415
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 1: Luda was wearing Krevos sweater, right, and Kolia was wearing

416
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: the fur hat and coat that belonged to Luda. So

417
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: he's wearing Luda's clothing and Luda was wearing something from

418
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: Crevo who was at a different location. He has two watches.

419
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: One was Creva's and it reads eight fourteen and the

420
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: other one that's his is eight thirty nine. And remember

421
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: that Igors was five point thirty one, so you might

422
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: have to go back to your you know, diagram that

423
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: shows where all the bodies are because it doesn't show amorpm.

424
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: But is that sequencing?

425
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: It must be, right, I guess I'm really confused at

426
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: any type of emphasis being put on the time reflected

427
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: on these watches. Of course, you think about a watch,

428
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: there's select circumstances where the watch might reflect a significant

429
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: event that damaged the watch, and so you know what

430
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: time that occurred. See, I know nothing about what kinds

431
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 2: of watches these are, is right now. I'm thinking these

432
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: are your standard you know, wind up watches, you know,

433
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: and so these these times to me, are only indicating

434
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: when the watch is no longer running. It doesn't tell

435
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: me anything about what happened to the victims unless there's

436
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: something else going on with these watches.

437
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: You're right, it's when it runs out. These don't look

438
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: battery powered to me. These are the wind up ones,

439
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: you're right.

440
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I think that's maybe a good point,

441
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 2: is that they would be pretty diligent about keeping the

442
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 2: watches wound up. But each watch has probably got its

443
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: own lifespan in terms of how long it's going to

444
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: you know, run before you have to wind it up again. Yeah, so, yeah,

445
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 2: I don't think I can put any weight on what

446
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 2: these watches are saying. Know that, Like what you've said

447
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: is that the earlier victim, Igor's watch was at you know,

448
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: five point thirty one, and then these later watches found

449
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: are all eight thirty nine, eight fourteen, eight forty five.

450
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they're all clumped together.

451
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 2: That's that's interesting. You know, why are those three watches

452
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 2: clumped that way? You know, you know, but I think

453
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,959
Speaker 2: I'll have to evaluate, you know, what kind of damage

454
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: is being inflicted to these watches that could cause them

455
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: to stop to indicate that, you know, a significant event

456
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 2: happened to them at that particular moment.

457
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about you know, when the

458
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: searchers find Coolia, they said their only observations were that

459
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: his face and his body were greenish gray, and his

460
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 1: right arm was bruised. All of his extremities were water rotted.

461
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 1: But the autopsy, if I skip down to that, says

462
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: that he died of trauma to the right side of

463
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: his head because his temporal bone is fractured in multiple places,

464
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: extending to the frontal and spin bones. Some of his

465
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: skull had penetrated his brain.

466
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I wouldn't eliminate let's say I fall onto a rock,

467
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: but I mean this tends to indicate that you have

468
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: a significant blow being inflicted to his head, you know.

469
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 2: But he's one of the ones that appear to have

470
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: survived for some period of time, utilizing this den living

471
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: there right, So there there seems to be if I'm

472
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: looking at this, you know, I'm playing around, is there

473
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 2: a chance that there's a different sequence of events than

474
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: how you've told, you know, how this kind of transpired,

475
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: because he kind of started with the bodies that were

476
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: found closest to the base camp, and then each time

477
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: you have bodies that are being found further and further away.

478
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're moving downhill, basically down that slope.

479
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm not sure that that necessarily is

480
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: the the right sequence on how these victims were killed

481
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: by the offenders, even though you know, some of them

482
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: died due to exposure. You know, I think we know

483
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: what the base camp just because of all the items

484
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: that are found at the base camp. They all made

485
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: it to that location and they would not be going

486
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: outside without their gear, you know, So that does suggest

487
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: I think that the base camp is probably the you know,

488
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: the origin, and then there's this distribution. Well, I don't know,

489
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: you know, to be frank, I'm not sure about the sequence.

490
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: But maybe the way that you've unfolded the findings of

491
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: the victims may also be the sequence in which these

492
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: victims were killed. I'm not convinced just yet, though.

493
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: Just so that everybody knows, the distance between the big

494
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: tent and the cedar tree that had broken branches in

495
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: that little fire area, so that's where we found Zena

496
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: and the other two men was fifteen hundred meters. So

497
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: between the base camp and the tree where the first

498
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: grouping was found, the distance between the tree where the

499
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: bodies the other bodies were sort of strewn about, and

500
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: the stream where you've got these three bodies found is

501
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: seventy five meters much closer. So what would that say

502
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: if this is a crime. They're driven out fifteen hundred

503
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: meters away, but the last set of bodies they have

504
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: time to dig a din, or maybe they didn't dig

505
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: the din and it was there already. I'm just confused

506
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: about where everybody is sleeping and for how long. But

507
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: they you know, then they said, based on stomach contents,

508
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: they will really a lie for sixty eight hours, six

509
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: to eight hours after they left that tent.

510
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know the distance we know based

511
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: off of the impressions leading from the base tent. You know,

512
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: these victims are being forced out of that tent. They're

513
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: not leaving that tent voluntarily. And it appears that all

514
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: the victims are found in this somewhat linear pattern, some

515
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: closer to that tent, but still, you know, the first one,

516
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: the closest victim, was this Zena.

517
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: Yep, Zena's up first.

518
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: Zena, and then it's Rustique. So but fundamentally they're about

519
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 2: and I'm just going to guess, because it's not that

520
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: this diagram is not to scale, but it looks like

521
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: Zena being the closest to the base camp. She's found

522
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: roughly seven hundred and fifty meters halfway between the tent

523
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: and the tree. Then you have another one hundred and

524
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: fifty meters, and then you you find Rustique there, you know,

525
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty meters I mean think about, you know,

526
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: roughly one and a half lengths of a football field, okay,

527
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: and then another on hundred eighty meters, and then now

528
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: you have Egor's body being found again you have you know,

529
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: one and a half maybe almost closer to two football

530
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: fields away, so there's some significant distances between where these

531
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: bodies are found. Then you've got Yuri and Creva that

532
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: are found at that basically at that tree, and.

533
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: They're found first, remember Paul, so people are walking over

534
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: Zena and Rustique and Igor and they're not found for

535
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: several days. So it's because they were close to the fire.

536
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: Is that why Uri and both URI's were found first

537
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: in Creva?

538
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: It may have just had to do with the terrain

539
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: that their bodies were on the surface and the other

540
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: bodies preceding theirs had been covered by snow due to weather,

541
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: you know. So, but it doesn't indicate necessarily that Uri

542
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: and Criva were the first ones. But I think what's

543
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: significant is is that Uri and Kriva, as you mentioned,

544
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: are by the fire. So there did they build the

545
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: fire or did the abductors build the fire, don't know.

546
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: And then you get past them by only seventy five meters,

547
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: and then you got the other four that appear to

548
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: have been, you know, possibly living out of this this den.

549
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: So it's that that linear pattern, I think is interesting.

550
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: The further they got away from the tent. It appears

551
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: that there was more time being spent at the locations

552
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: where these bodies are being found. Yeah, and so is

553
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 2: it possible that you know, the first, you know, the

554
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: ones that are are found closer to the tent died

555
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: or were killed you know first, and that these other

556
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: victims were allowed to live for a longer period of

557
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: time though they are, you know, being beaten on. And

558
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: then why are those victims allowed to live longer? Why

559
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: are the offenders interacting with them more? Is there anything

560
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: particular about their victimology that would suggest that they had

561
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: more in greater importance to the offenders than the other ones.

562
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you the rest of the autopsy

563
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: results and then about the two sashas, which might help.

564
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: So we established that Kolya had trauma to the right

565
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: side of his head, and we talked about some of

566
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: the skull had penetrated his brain. So Luda the woman,

567
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: Her death had been determined to be a result from

568
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures,

569
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity. The examiner said

570
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: that the force that he saw was something he would

571
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: see in somebody who was in a car accident at

572
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: very high speed. So does that means she's just been

573
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: beaten on and died from those injuries and there's nothing

574
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: in nature that would have happened to her natural, Yeah.

575
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: That's I would say. Those injuries would suggest that she

576
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 2: is when you say beaten, yes, but she's being stomped,

577
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 2: she's being kicked. That's what it sounds like to me.

578
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: This is where the Sasha are found. They're holding each other.

579
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: So Sasha k lies curled behind Sasha z as though

580
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: he's trying to keep him warm. Sasha Ky is wearing

581
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: a velvet undershirt, checkered shirt, a sweater, a couple of sweaters,

582
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: and a ski jacket with a torn zipper, and there

583
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: are burned spots from the fire previously in tears on

584
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: the bottom half of him. He's got a blue satin

585
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: briefs and some underpants and ski trousers, and he seems

586
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: to be pretty warm too, and some overalls that belonged

587
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: to Uri, who was at the first place. So on

588
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: his right foot he wears cotton socks and burned wool socks,

589
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: and his left ankle is bandaged in gauze. So that

590
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: is Sasha k. So he's the one holding Sasha Ze

591
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: Sasha Ky. His neck is twisted, his face is yellow

592
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: gray with purple spots, which we expect. The skin around

593
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: his eyes swets, and eyebrows has been torn off, revealing

594
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: the bones of his face. His eyeballs are wrinkled and sunken,

595
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: his nose is flattened, his fingers everything is bad because

596
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: of the wetness. Now, let me tell you what they say.

597
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: He died of.

598
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: His autopsy indicates that low temperatures caused his death. There's

599
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: no speculation on how his other injuries, particularly the deformation

600
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: of his thyroid cartilage, influenced his death.

601
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: Deformation of the thyroid cartilage I'm seeing.

602
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out where that would even be. So,

603
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: the eye sockets and the eyebrows have been torn off,

604
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: revealing the bones of his face. His eyeballs are wrinkled

605
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: and sunken deep into his eye sockets, his nose is flattened,

606
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: and his fingers and feet are putrefied in the wet environment.

607
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, everything there sounds like, you know, decomposition,

608
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 2: maybe some mild animal activity on the face. Anytime there's

609
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 2: damage in the neck area. That's where or I'm going

610
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 2: was there possibly a blow to the front of his neck?

611
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: Was he strangled? It sounds like exposure is what killed Sasha.

612
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: K right, You're right, And don't you think that's odd?

613
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: So far this is the only person who hasn't had

614
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: the life beaten out of him. Basically, they don't find

615
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: any other injuries, and he's holding one of the other people.

616
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: I'm just saying. I don't want to be a conspiracist here,

617
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 1: but I think it's weird for some reason.

618
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and you know, the thought has fleetingly

619
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 2: gone through my head. You know, could somebody within this

620
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: group have been responsible for in essence, this is a

621
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: murder suicide, you know, and so if you have somebody

622
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 2: that isn't showing, you know, violence being inflicted on them,

623
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: then you start speculating that maybe that person is responsible

624
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 2: for killing the others. It's just that how does one

625
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: person in this group get this entire group to march

626
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: out of that tent? I just don't see that happening.

627
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: And they didn't find weapons or anything like that. There's

628
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: no gun or anything like that.

629
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: So I think that, you know, the the abductors. They

630
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 2: had a level of control over all these victims. All

631
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: these victims knew as soon as they left that base tent,

632
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: you know, they could not survive very long at all.

633
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 2: Yet they were forced out of that tent. So these offenders,

634
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 2: and you know, could one person do this, you know,

635
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: with nine nine students though, you know, if this, if

636
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: the one offenders has a gun, I mean, it's it's possible.

637
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 2: My sense is it's probably more than than one offender.

638
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: The campfire is intriguing, particularly with you have at least

639
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 2: one of the victims, of the four that are found

640
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: in the creek, we're showing evidence of sooting or burn marks,

641
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 2: you know, so that would suggest that they were also

642
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: at that campfire. You know, did defenders lose control of

643
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: those four at the campfire and then had to track

644
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: them down? There may be some sequence information there.

645
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 1: This is your baffling. This is the most baffling case

646
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: I think we've had ever.

647
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 2: You know, and I think it's because of the environment

648
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: that they're in. Is part of the complexity, you know,

649
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: I even thought, is it possible the reason the abductors,

650
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: the offenders are marching the students towards that cedar tree

651
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 2: towards that campfire is knowing that there was that den

652
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: out there? Did the offenders actually build that themselves? Is

653
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 2: that where they originated out of? You know? And then

654
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 2: the four just happened to, you know, play hide and

655
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: seek with the offenders there for a period of time.

656
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: Who knows?

657
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 1: Who knows. Let's get back to the person being held

658
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: in this embrace the other, Sasha, because that's the final person.

659
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: So we have all nine people accounted for at this point.

660
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: Let me tell you his injuries. So Sasha Kay, you know,

661
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: as we know, didn't have any injuries. Sasha z is

662
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: wearing a lot of clothing, you know, one of the

663
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: top three wearing a lot of clothing. He has a

664
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: compass on his wrist, and you know, various quilted He

665
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: has quilted boots and several different layers. So his face

666
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: is greenish gray. I think you're gonna say, decomp on

667
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: all of this. There's an open wound on the right

668
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: side of his skull, exposing a two and a half

669
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: by three inch area of the bone. His eyebrows are

670
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: missing and his eyes are absent from the sockets. His

671
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: nose is flattened at the base his chest is crushed

672
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: and his limbs have putrefied in the water. Now, the

673
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: autopsy on Sasha Z is his right ribs in scapula

674
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: are fractured in multiple places. And like Luda, Sasha died

675
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: from internal hemorrhaging. So Sasha's been hurt too. There's only

676
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: one person out of this whole group who hasn't been injured.

677
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 2: Considering that the one person that doesn't have any significant injury,

678
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 2: Sasha K is sitting there holding on to Sasha Z. Now,

679
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: I'm going, well, is it possible Sasha K could have

680
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: done all of this? I just I don't see how

681
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: Sasha K could get this entire team to voluntarily walk

682
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: out of that base camp. That just doesn't make sense

683
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: to me, because everybody knows no way are we going

684
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 2: to survive?

685
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: And it gets a little more complicated to so let

686
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: me tell you about some of the tests they ran.

687
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: They did toxicology, they ran all kinds of tests, including radiation.

688
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: The forensic analysis of this group of nine indicates that

689
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: some of the clothing contain traces of radiation. The brown

690
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: sweater worn by Luda, the one that belonged to Korea,

691
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 1: and there's a belt from another sweater and the bottom

692
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: of the part of the trousers worn by Sasha K

693
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: all have traces of radiation. Now here's the thing. Because

694
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: Luda and Sasha K's bodies were found in running water

695
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: once all the snow melted, months after they died, researchers

696
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: are saying. What the forensic scientists are saying is that

697
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: the radiation level when the radiation was exposed to these

698
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: people must have been incredibly high. Because running water would

699
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: have wiped away radioactive contamination from clothing. It doesn't totally

700
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: eliminate it, but they said from it still being on

701
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: their clothing, the radiation had to have been high when

702
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: they were exposed to it.

703
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: This is bizarre, bizarre. I know, I've never had a

704
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: case in which the pathologist was going, well, we better

705
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: check for radioactive material, right, But you're not.

706
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: You're not an investigator in the Soviet Union, right, there

707
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: were radiations everywhere.

708
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 2: There's there's a reason why, this why the authorities needed

709
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: to run this test. They were aware that there was

710
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 2: that possibility. Now they're not indicating what type of radioactive

711
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 2: material they found, are they? You know, are we talking uranium?

712
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: Are we talking plutonium? You know, things that you go, oh,

713
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: that's significant, are you There's many other elements that possess

714
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: you know, radioactive isotopes, you know, and it could be

715
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: something that is commonly found in the environment out there,

716
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 2: you know, so that would have to be eliminated. And

717
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 2: I would imagine, you know, they had a sense of, well,

718
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 2: what is the radioactive material that these bodies are found,

719
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: and it's got to be something that's foreign to that

720
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: environment if they're looking to see if that's present. And

721
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: so I think from my perspective as i'd want to

722
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: know more about what this radioactive material is and you know,

723
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: what kind of sources exist for that type of radioactive

724
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: material and is it something again going back to the

725
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: journals being classified, is it something that the Soviets were

726
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: experimenting with using you know at the time, you know,

727
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: is this an area where the Soviets were doing atomic

728
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 2: bomb tests? You know, and there's you know, just foreign

729
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: radioactive material all over the place. So I think that

730
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: that deepens my suspicion that the offenders in this case

731
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: probably had some affiliation whatever the Soviets were doing at

732
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: this location.

733
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: You're about to get a lot more information about that.

734
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure where ever, going to get a satisfactory answer.

735
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: But here's where it comes from.

736
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: Okay.

737
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: There are seventy five different theories about how they perished.

738
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: The theories ranged from avalanches and high winds, to the military,

739
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: to the Mansie, the indigenous people attacking them, the paranormal

740
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: explanations like alien abductions. Yet there's a yetie attack, of

741
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: course thrown in there. Had the Mansie killed the group

742
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: because they were on sacred land? Had they gone mad

743
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: after eating hallucinogenic mushrooms these hikers, the Manzie would dry

744
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: out these mushrooms and they would hang them on the

745
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: trees to dry. Did they find all these mushrooms and

746
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: eat those? Had the hikers stumbled into a secret zone

747
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: for testing nuclear weapons? Were they the victims of a

748
00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:00,760
Speaker 1: military experiment. Had they been incapacitated by poisonous rocket fuel

749
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 1: and then staged to look as though they had died

750
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: of hypothermia? Is it the KGB? I mean, there's a

751
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: They even blame the CIA, you know. So they were

752
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: all over the place. So they closed the case in

753
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, and the Soviet Union says that they

754
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: died from a compelling natural force and they blamed the leader,

755
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: who was Igor. So Igor's last name was diote Love.

756
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: They named this part of the mountain after him. They

757
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: named it a Dailuf Pass. But the government ultimately blames

758
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: Igor for leading them in the wrong direction where they

759
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: had intended to go. So they closed this case. But

760
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: then weird things start to happen. The lead investigator gets

761
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: transferred to a small town in a completely different country.

762
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: There's an inspector another person who's fired when they shouldn't

763
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 1: have been. The area becomes off limits to the Mansia

764
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 1: hunters and skiers hikers for years after that. And then,

765
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: of course I told you already, all the files and

766
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: the photographs and the journals, everything is classified. They made

767
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: it classified when they closed this case. It was, of

768
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: course very suspicious. But now there are more theories because

769
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: they did open up the files in two thousand and nine. Okay,

770
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: so there are investigators even into the nineties who think

771
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: it was just aliens because of there were burn marks

772
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: on the trees also, which I just thought, I guess

773
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: was going to be from the fire, but there were

774
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: odd bird marks around. There was a hiker who didn't go,

775
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 1: Remember I told you he got sick and the hikers'

776
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 1: diaries all entered the public domain. So Yuri Uden, who

777
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: was one of the hikers who had to bail out,

778
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 1: he published his memoirs and he thinks that the party

779
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: was killed as the result of military testing. He said,

780
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: it's obviously a Soviet cover up, and to support the theory,

781
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: he says that and this was something that was covered up.

782
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: Also that the Menci hunters in nineteen fifty nine and

783
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: then in two thousand and eight found some strange metallic

784
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: fragments at the scene. There was also a three foot

785
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: long piece of metal that was not part of the

786
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 1: hiker's equipment. They were the components of a Soviet ballistic missile.

787
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: And so Uri his feeling is that they or killed

788
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: by this missile and they were forced to flee at gunpoint,

789
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: or because their injuries were so extreme, potentially, you know,

790
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: maybe the military came down to see what happened and

791
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: they either froze to death or were murdered by military operatives.

792
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: And that is the theory of the families. That's what

793
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: they think happened. Better than aliens for sure, but that's

794
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: what they think happened.

795
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 2: I think I lean in that direction is that you know,

796
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 2: there was a there was something going on at that

797
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: location that these students ended up being in the middle

798
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: of and they weren't supposed to be there. They maybe

799
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 2: they witnessed something that they shouldn't have seen, and now

800
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: you have them being eliminated, you know, the you know,

801
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: the abductors marching them out of that tent and knew

802
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: as soon as they got out of that tent that

803
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: they would not survive. You know, so in some ways,

804
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: maybe the original intent was is just to have all

805
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: of them die from exposure, just to kind of keep

806
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 2: it as sanitary as possible and as unsuspicious as possible.

807
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 2: But some of them put up a fight, and now

808
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: they're having to inflict violence, and some of them are

809
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: trying to run away. You know, maybe the offenders lost

810
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: some control. This seems to make sense with me just

811
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: from the classified nature. The way the case was originally

812
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 2: closed very quickly back in nineteen fifty nine. You know,

813
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: authorities wanted to test for radioactive material. That all just

814
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: seems to add up now they didn't. They weren't injured

815
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: because of a ballistic missile. I don't buy that at all.

816
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 2: You know, maybe there was a ballistic missile that you know, detonated,

817
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: you know, and there were some military personnel that were

818
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 2: part of that experiment and then saw the students and go,

819
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 2: they can't be seeing this. You know, there's top secret

820
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: stuff going on here. So I'm I kind of am

821
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: on board with with that theory. For sure. I'd be

822
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 2: more comfortable if I could better sequence what's going on,

823
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 2: to try to figure out, you know, exactly how the offenders,

824
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately got all nine of these students, you know,

825
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: and controlled them and killed them. And I'm just uncomfortable

826
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 2: with you know, what I know about this at this

827
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 2: point in time. But I think I agree with the families.

828
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 2: You know, this is what it seems like from my perspective.

829
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you they did launch missiles in

830
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: this area, but the Soviet government says they didn't land

831
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: anywhere near that location. Yeah, take that grain of salt. Obviously,

832
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: the case is reopened in twenty nineteen, just a few

833
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: years ago. Of course, it is the Russian government who's

834
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: opening it, and because there's so much public interest, So

835
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: the prosecutor has a theory, and that theory seemed outlandish

836
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: to the families, and they don't believe it. It's about

837
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: an avalanche, and I'll explain it to you. But before

838
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 1: you talk about avalanches, I'll tell you that there were

839
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 1: quite a few experts who ran simulations on the prosecutor's theory,

840
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: and it was possible that it happened. But I got

841
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: to tell you what the theory is. So you're ready

842
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: for that theory, Let's hear it. The prosecutor says that

843
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: it was caused all of this was caused by what's

844
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: called a slab avalanche, and that is a type of

845
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: snow avalanche that is a cohesive layer of a slab

846
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: of snow and it breaks away from the underlying snowpack

847
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: and slides down a slope as a single unit. And

848
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: on your little package that I sent you, it talks

849
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: about you can see what they mean by the slab

850
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: coming straight down, because they do seem like they're kind

851
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: of in a straight down path, coming straight down and

852
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: essentially burying all of this. Initially, we can talk about

853
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: sequencing in a second. Let me tell you what the

854
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: rest of what he says. So the families and a

855
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: lot of other people call bs on this. They said,

856
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: the thirty degree slope of the mountain isn't steep enough

857
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: for an avalanche to form. There's no evidence that the

858
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: avalanche degree is anywhere at any of the sites where

859
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: the bodies were found. There were not any other indicators

860
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: of an avalanche, like broken trees or swept snowfields. The

861
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 1: skis and the tent poles were sticking up in the snow,

862
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: and the Manzies had never even heard of an avalanche

863
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: in the region. And the prosecutor refutes that, and these

864
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 1: experts put together simulations, but there's a big difference between

865
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: could this have happened and did it happen? So they say, technically, yes,

866
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: it could have happened. Did it happen, there's no proof,

867
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: And the Mansies, who have no dog in the fight,

868
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: say no, We've never even heard of an avalanche happened

869
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 1: during that time period. Had you heard of that a

870
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: slab avalanche?

871
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 2: You know, I may have, you know, I, of course,

872
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 2: I'm more familiar with with the you know, these avalanches

873
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: where you have a whole this huge snow pack that

874
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 2: comes down the side of the mountain. I'm really just

875
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 2: not buying that, you know. I've gone back to the

876
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 2: you know, the overall photo of where that base tent

877
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 2: was found, you know where you can see the tent

878
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 2: and you see, you know, it looks like nine ten

879
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: pairs of skis sticking vertically up out of the snow,

880
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: like by five feet. It's not like they're buried, they're

881
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 2: literally on you know, they just like somebody has just

882
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: stuck them down there. You know, I did you know

883
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 2: early on comment about the snow on top of the

884
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 2: tent fabric it looked chunky like somebody had put that

885
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: on top. But going back to you've got that cedar

886
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 2: tree where somebody has built a fire. You have two

887
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: bodies that are there, then you have the two other

888
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 2: bodies or the four other bodies where it appears that

889
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 2: they may have been trying to live out of that

890
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 2: then for some period of time. So under the avalanche theory,

891
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 2: you know, the first three victims that were closest to

892
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 2: the tent, did they succumb to the avalanche and then

893
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 2: the others survived it but they just didn't have sufficient

894
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: gear to handle the elements. But when you start talking

895
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 2: about crushed rib cages and broken scapul them, could that

896
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 2: have happened in avalanche? Sure? But how long is somebody

897
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 2: like that going to survive afterwards. I think I agree

898
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: with the families. That's just not passing muster from my perspective.

899
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what the prosecutor. I've never

900
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 1: heard about sequencing what you and I have been talking about.

901
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: But this is what he says he believed is the

902
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: sequence of events. It explains where everybody is. Okay, So

903
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: what he said that is a slab of snow slid

904
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: over the tent. This was not part of the avalanche.

905
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,959
Speaker 1: This was like an initial slab of snow which would

906
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: have indicated an avalanche. The hikers evacuated the tent, they

907
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: headed to the safety of the tree line, and they

908
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: started a fire near the cedar tree. So there were

909
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: different levels of broken branches. He said that maybe they

910
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: found it too hard to start a fire with the

911
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: young tree branches below, so they felt compelled to climb

912
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: the tree and break off the larger branches, which you know,

913
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: they're trying to explain why. Like I said, there's different

914
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: levels of broken branches. He does say that he thought

915
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 1: the biting of the flesh from Kreva was creva basically

916
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: going crazy, you know, from frostbite and everything else. But

917
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: he thinks that the skiers cut off their clothes to

918
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: stay warm from initially whoever died first, and that's why

919
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: we end up with all of this switching of clothing.

920
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: Three tried to return to the tent we talked about

921
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 1: before on the slope, but became discombobulated and froze to death.

922
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 1: He blinded two people and led them ninety feet downhill

923
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 1: from where the tent had been discovered, and he asked

924
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: them to find their way back, and of course they couldn't.

925
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: The remaining four hikers dug out the snow did, but

926
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: it was hollowed out by the river and as a result,

927
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: it collapsed, and this is where the severe blood force

928
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: injuries came on the hikers that were found there. And

929
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: then of course you've got scavengers and everything else, and

930
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: so there, that's why he was saying there was a

931
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 1: difference between the times when maybe when people died. So

932
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: he's trying to sequence it, and that's what the prosecutor says.

933
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical about the avalanche theory. I'd want to see more.

934
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 2: It just seems I think I still have to go

935
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 2: back to the government classifying this case, classifying the journals

936
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 2: authorities knowing to look for radiation. There's something along those

937
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: lines that suggest something more nefarious than a natural accident.

938
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: I just I will agree that the totality of the

939
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 2: injuries across all the victims, I can't say with confidence, well,

940
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: this is definitely homicidal violence, and could much of it

941
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 2: be accounted for by, you know, being in an avalanche. Possibly?

942
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: You know, I think I've just got a healthy amount

943
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: of skepticism on that, as I do on everything else.

944
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 2: On this case, you know, this is one where I'd

945
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 2: have to roll up my sleeves and really dig into

946
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 2: it before I maybe got confidence about one theory over another.

947
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: It's a mystery that I mean, there are websites built

948
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: on the story, and I know Allison had I think

949
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: double the amount of research. We just couldn't get through

950
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: all of it. I mean, there were loads of other things,

951
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: and so I had to stick with the things that

952
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 1: I thought were the most important. But yeah, this case

953
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: is a really big mystery. And we've done some cases

954
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: where we just kind of say, I don't know what happened.

955
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: Remember the guy who was found dead between the two

956
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: haystacks in England and these sort of strange phenomena that

957
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: could go either way. And I remember with that guy,

958
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: how did he get out there to begin with? And

959
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: it was a long way away from where he was

960
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: going to school. And so with some simple explanations to

961
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: fill in the blank, we might both go, oh, okay,

962
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: this is the thing that might make sense here. But

963
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: with missing pieces of information, it makes it so much

964
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 1: more difficult. So I know how frustrating it would be

965
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: for forensic scientists and for investigators on anything like this.

966
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: This is an obsession for a lot of people.

967
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I can understand. It is a big mystery.

968
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 2: It's you know, whether or not there's sufficient documentation to

969
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 2: truly get to the bottom of it. I who knows,

970
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's just and to say this is caused

971
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 2: by an avalanche. Maybe.

972
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: So do you need vodka? Now you don't like vodka,

973
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm pretty.

974
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 2: Sure you like I can? I can, I can drink vodka, okay, all.

975
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, sure, so you could celebrate the end of

976
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: this flipping case. Right, we're not going to talk about Russia.

977
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 1: I know we're not going to talk about Russia next week,

978
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: So that's it. I would like a more straightforward case

979
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: next week because I don't like unsolved cases. I know

980
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: you do, but this feels so unsolved to me. But

981
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: I'll have thrown them in there. So I'm glad that

982
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: you were able to flex your investigative muscles on this one. Especially.

983
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much flexing I did. Russian. Yeah,

984
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 2: you know, it's definitely outside my wheelhouse. But you know,

985
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: maybe over this Colorado winter, I'll start paying closer to

986
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: attention to evidence and snow, and I know, see if

987
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: I can get greater insight the next time you bring

988
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: me a Siberian homicide case.

989
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: What if the avalanche is the real color? What if

990
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: it's Mother Nature. It's a bitch, She's a real killer

991
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: out there. So so we'll on that note, I will

992
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: see you next week with.

993
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: A different case. Awesome looking forward to a case.

994
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

995
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

996
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

997
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

998
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

999
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1000
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1001
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1002
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1003
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1004
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

1005
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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1006
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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1007
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1008
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1009
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: cold Cases, is also available now.

1010
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,200
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1011
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