Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, we talk
Speaker 1: a lot about the tightening labor market, the Jolts survey,
Speaker 1: of course, and the way that people are thinking about
Speaker 1: the great resignation. There's so much going on when it
Speaker 1: comes to today's employment picture. Working Nation, by the way,
Speaker 1: founded by the former vice chairman of akam I Technologies.
Speaker 1: We're talking about our builder. It's a not for profit.
Speaker 1: It's looking for solutions to the nation's changing labor needs.
Speaker 1: We've got a perfect guest. She is the president of
Speaker 1: Working Nation. She's Jane Oh. It's former U S Department
Speaker 1: of Labor official. She served as Assistant Secretary for the
Speaker 1: Employment and Training Administration during the Obama administration. She also
Speaker 1: was a former teacher and she joins us in her studio. Welcome,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Carol, nice to be here. Well,
Speaker 1: it's great to have you here. And you guys are
Speaker 1: looking for solutions to really help others, you know, figure
Speaker 1: out better ways to figure out their labor needs um
Speaker 1: or make sure that they are current in terms of
Speaker 1: what are the labor needs of today? Tell us about
Speaker 1: what you think are because there are so many different
Speaker 1: conversations that are going out about the labor force. Tim's right,
Speaker 1: great resignation, we're talking about hybrid, We're talking about you know,
Speaker 1: people just saying I've had enough, I'm going to do
Speaker 1: it differently. What are the trends that you think that
Speaker 1: really stick with us? So look, I think you have
Speaker 1: to look at the great resignation and remember that people
Speaker 1: are really examining their lives. They're trying to get a
Speaker 1: better balance. But also if you just stop and think
Speaker 1: for a second, I mean, I don't want to I
Speaker 1: don't want to minimize four point four million people in
Speaker 1: the last Joultry Report quitting series high. No exaggeration there,
Speaker 1: that's that's a gigantic number. What are they quitting for
Speaker 1: more pay or just more flexibility or something else? I
Speaker 1: think some a little bit of everything. But for the
Speaker 1: biggest chunk I think are the class of twenty and
Speaker 1: the class of twenty one. Think about that. If you
Speaker 1: have a sister or a cousin, a neighbor who graduated
Speaker 1: from a four year or graduate program in twenty or one,
Speaker 1: they couldn't find a job right in especially the labor mark,
Speaker 1: it was flat, so they went out and got something
Speaker 1: that was beneath their qualification, something that you didn't need
Speaker 1: their degree for. I think this is them adjusting a lot,
Speaker 1: not that the whole four point four million, but a
Speaker 1: lot of it is that those two classes from high
Speaker 1: school to associate's degree to bachelor's degree and beyond them
Speaker 1: adjusting and going after a career instead of just a
Speaker 1: placeholder job. That is a really interesting take. That's not
Speaker 1: that one that I've thought of. So in a sense,
Speaker 1: we're going to see turnover be high because of that,
Speaker 1: at least at a for a very short period of time.
Speaker 1: But you think it will kind of go back to
Speaker 1: where things traditionally are. I think it will go back
Speaker 1: to where we you know, to something who knows what
Speaker 1: the new normal is going to be. But I definitely
Speaker 1: think that those two bulk groups of people had a
Speaker 1: lot to do with the gigantic number in September. I
Speaker 1: want to ask you, this is something that Carol brings
Speaker 1: up all the time, the idea of people who perhaps
Speaker 1: will not return to the labor force after the pandemic.
Speaker 1: When we do get to the other side of this pandemic,
Speaker 1: how should we be thinking about the definition of full
Speaker 1: employment or all the jobs recovered, uh that we lost
Speaker 1: during the pandemic. And Kathleen Hayes, who follows the economy,
Speaker 1: who's much smarter than me, that on this I said,
Speaker 1: I think it was like two million people have just
Speaker 1: said I resign, I'm done. That's a disproportionately women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and disproportionately if you take the women out and look
Speaker 1: at the full population, disproportionately workers outside of prime age
Speaker 1: fifty five and older, and a lot of them are
Speaker 1: having terrible times finding jobs and they're just deciding they'll
Speaker 1: live on their savings. They're not going to make it.
Speaker 1: You know. If there are men and women who were
Speaker 1: basically you know, maybe semi retirement but saying I had
Speaker 1: a job as working and then the pandemic hit and
Speaker 1: they're just like, I'm done. I've got investments, I've got
Speaker 1: a pension. If they're lucky, markets done pretty well, markets
Speaker 1: downe really well, right, and just said I'm done well
Speaker 1: a lot of them. What I like is they're going
Speaker 1: to nonprofits. Like there's this really cool nonprofit based in
Speaker 1: l A called Encourse them and it encourages people who
Speaker 1: have like math skills in their careers to come back
Speaker 1: and teach middle school and high school math. I love
Speaker 1: the program, and I think there's programs like that all
Speaker 1: over the country where these fifty five and olders who
Speaker 1: do have the money to retire are going back and
Speaker 1: taking a second career with a nonprofit where money isn't
Speaker 1: an issue. They can work for less dollars. Well. And
Speaker 1: you know, we've also talked about and I've been working
Speaker 1: on something on our Bloomberg media side where it's it's
Speaker 1: women who are also starting their own businesses. We're seeing
Speaker 1: first of all, entrepreneurship startups at record levels, but women
Speaker 1: in particular, Like I've had it with the corporate culture,
Speaker 1: I don't have the flexibility I need. I'm not getting
Speaker 1: the recognition. Corporations still don't get women and saying I'm
Speaker 1: going to do it on my own. No. I think
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And I think, you know, people sometimes
Speaker 1: trivialize that and say, oh, it's baking cupcakes and going
Speaker 1: on Etsy. It's much more than that. A lot of
Speaker 1: women are really out there starting service kinds of things,
Speaker 1: helping people. You know, you think about how much we
Speaker 1: all are dependent on scheduling. There's a lot of women
Speaker 1: out there who knew how to schedule in the corporate world,
Speaker 1: and they're going to go out and help other people
Speaker 1: and they're gonna make a lot of money doing it.
Speaker 1: Mersa Freeman and I'm giving a little tease of a
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Media event that we're doing, and she said, you know,
Speaker 1: corporations don't understand women have one calendar and this whole
Speaker 1: idea of that your work calendar or personal calendar. It's
Speaker 1: not like this I separate these things. No, we are
Speaker 1: kind of the oldimate multitasker, and we've got to figure
Speaker 1: out how it all works in one calendar and folding
Speaker 1: your kids calendars right, like little weak practices and play dates, right,
Speaker 1: This is all part of our lives. Education it has
Speaker 1: been supposed to be the great leveler, right, the great
Speaker 1: opportunity for so many, But I think increasingly it's safe
Speaker 1: to say that education has gotten so expensive that it
Speaker 1: once again is kind of helping to widen the gap.
Speaker 1: Even though a lot of academic institutions provide scholarships and
Speaker 1: so and so forth. Still I think it's really problematic
Speaker 1: for a lot of people in terms of access. You're
Speaker 1: a teacher, like you understand the importance of education. How
Speaker 1: do we need to maybe disrupt education and maybe at
Speaker 1: all levels, but I'm also thinking about the higher you know,
Speaker 1: education level. Well, I think all education, post secondary education
Speaker 1: institutions should be really nervous. Three consecutive years of enrollment decline,
Speaker 1: the public is starting to vote with their feet. I
Speaker 1: think the answer is embedding. Embedding industry recognized credentials into academics.
Speaker 1: Not anymore making it an either or, but saying you
Speaker 1: need to have digital skills. Whether you're a poetry major
Speaker 1: or a comparative religion major, you need to have digital skills.
Speaker 1: So let's embed those credentials into your academic curriculum. What
Speaker 1: role does the government need to have when it comes
Speaker 1: to paying for higher education, Well, they need to in
Speaker 1: the K twelve space, they need to keep up with
Speaker 1: special education i d e. A Funding, and they need
Speaker 1: to continue funding low income kids through Title one. In
Speaker 1: post secondary education, they have always really just on pell
Speaker 1: grants and amazing help to the poorest, you know, to
Speaker 1: make sure that education at any level is more affordable.
Speaker 1: I think they may need to put a little bit
Speaker 1: more money into institutional aid right now because so many institutions,
Speaker 1: particularly smaller institutions, rural institutions, tribal colleges, HBCUs Uh, they
Speaker 1: really got hit. Their tuition dependent most of them don't
Speaker 1: have large endowments like the schools you think of. You know,
Speaker 1: we may need to help them. All right, we're gonna
Speaker 1: come back with Jane Oh. She's President Working Nation, former
Speaker 1: Assistant Secretary of Employment and Training during the Obama administration.
Speaker 1: Our conversation will continue right here on Bloomberg Business Week.
Speaker 1: Jane Oates is with as president of Working Nation. She's
Speaker 1: former Assistant Secretary for the Employment and Training Administration during
Speaker 1: the Obama administration. A former teacher, as we mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: she's still with us in our interactive broker studio. All Right,
Speaker 1: I just want to give a taste of some of
Speaker 1: the conversation we've been having when it comes to higher
Speaker 1: education colleges. Does it make sense that they're eight dollars
Speaker 1: a year? And I know there's great educational institutions out there,
Speaker 1: but holy moly, I know it's sounds like you're paying tuition. Carol.
Speaker 1: I am welcome to parents paying tuition, and I I
Speaker 1: appreciate academia, I really do. I think it's a great
Speaker 1: envire for kids where they can just kind of go
Speaker 1: and study things. But I do wonder about you know,
Speaker 1: how many people it's not really accessible. And I know
Speaker 1: that there's assistance at the lower end, but there's a
Speaker 1: lot of people in the middle who I feel like
Speaker 1: it's tough. Well I think maybe, yeah, I think the
Speaker 1: middle class is getting frozen out of college. You know,
Speaker 1: they can't really the pell grant isn't there for them.
Speaker 1: They they make a little bit too much money, or
Speaker 1: they don't have enough kids, and they can't they're not
Speaker 1: the the A plus student in the class, so they're
Speaker 1: not getting academic or or sports scholarships. They're they're caught
Speaker 1: with nothing. So that's another thing. There's lots of sports scholarships,
Speaker 1: forgive me, but there's not a lot of academic scholarships anymore,
Speaker 1: which is like, what, Yeah, it's really hard. I think. Look,
Speaker 1: if you're going to go to a research one, a
Speaker 1: lot of the money from that institution has to go
Speaker 1: into doing research. And thank God for that, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's why we have the vaccines that we have, it's
Speaker 1: why we have the health improvements we have, it's why
Speaker 1: we have the new industry standards that we have quite frankly,
Speaker 1: but I think you know, the tier below research one
Speaker 1: has kept up with the research ones in terms of tuition,
Speaker 1: and I think the public is now saying why. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're great employers. They colleges pay great salaries to their faculty,
Speaker 1: which they should, and have great benefits packages. But they're
Speaker 1: not going to be open. I think we're gonna see
Speaker 1: a lot of colleges sadly. It breaks my heart to
Speaker 1: say this not be able to make it. They made
Speaker 1: it through the pandemic because the administration gave them money
Speaker 1: to stay open. Then now so many of them are
Speaker 1: just really struggling. That's like a p s A for
Speaker 1: you to give money to your alma mater. Maybe, though,
Speaker 1: I mean if people feel like they have a connection
Speaker 1: to it, yeah, well wait a minute. When there is
Speaker 1: there endowments that are billions and billions of dollars, So
Speaker 1: is it a place for learning and education or is
Speaker 1: it a financial company all of a sudden, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think Look, I think that's valid. But to be honest
Speaker 1: with you, probably only ten percent of the colleges have
Speaker 1: an endowment like you're talking about. They're the names that
Speaker 1: you would recognize the Ivy leagues, the great you know,
Speaker 1: state flagships and things like that. The majority people go
Speaker 1: to smaller colleges that some people haven't even heard of,
Speaker 1: that are fabulous institutions where they're getting great educations. What
Speaker 1: they have to do is start to parlay that into
Speaker 1: something connected with work so that middle class kids go
Speaker 1: there and say, here's what I'm going to spend. I
Speaker 1: hope it's not eighty thousand, but if it's going to
Speaker 1: be fifty thousand at the very least, what's my r
Speaker 1: O I? What what am I going to get in
Speaker 1: terms of turning next? I'm sorry, my you're what's my
Speaker 1: return on investment? You know? Am I getting attachment to
Speaker 1: an employer? Am I getting a paid internship? Even if
Speaker 1: it's something that's not paid, like am I want to
Speaker 1: go into like I did policy, I'd like to get
Speaker 1: an internship on the hill. Is the school helping me
Speaker 1: get make that kind of connection, then that's a return
Speaker 1: on investment. So what's the best way for somebody who
Speaker 1: perhaps is in college right now or will be graduating
Speaker 1: soon to to think about how they can find something
Speaker 1: or study something that will be applicable to them throughout
Speaker 1: their careers. Well, I would say anybody should take pull up,
Speaker 1: you know, a minor in something like data analytics, some
Speaker 1: kind of something to give them data visualization. They don't
Speaker 1: have to major in it if they don't want to,
Speaker 1: but they need to get familiar with it. And really,
Speaker 1: I can't say enough. They should be out there getting
Speaker 1: work experience. The people at the college, most of them
Speaker 1: went and got their PhD s straight through and didn't
Speaker 1: work outside of academia. They can't really help them figure
Speaker 1: out the world of work. They need to get out
Speaker 1: there and figure it out on their own. What are
Speaker 1: companies what's the role of companies more specifically in terms
Speaker 1: of making sure that we have the right workforce for
Speaker 1: the future demands. I think there's some companies out there
Speaker 1: that are doing amazing things. I'll pivot from what I
Speaker 1: was just saying, students should look at internships. I can't
Speaker 1: believe the growth in paid internships in corporate America. You
Speaker 1: know some companies that have been doing it for a
Speaker 1: long time. We have a great internship program. I was,
Speaker 1: you know, I was gonna say, how many interns does
Speaker 1: Bloomberg have? He's always been about this, But you know,
Speaker 1: Lockheed Martin, I mean and and Lockheed Martin. When west
Speaker 1: Bush was there. He's been going about eighteen months now,
Speaker 1: but I mean when he was there, they did about
Speaker 1: eight percent of their new hires came from their intern pool.
Speaker 1: That's a really good thing for kids to know. But
Speaker 1: I think other college I think of other businesses. You know,
Speaker 1: you probably had Nick pinchuk on from snap one. They
Speaker 1: Snap one has been great in the lower end careers,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of a blue collar skilled trades kinds
Speaker 1: of things. He pays for material at colleges. He put
Speaker 1: together a program called NC three that has a training
Speaker 1: program for the community college faculty that are doing automotive
Speaker 1: so that it's quality controlled across every college. It's fabulous.
Speaker 1: What about though, making sure? I mean I say this
Speaker 1: as a parent, like to my daughter, and you want
Speaker 1: to come back and live in New York City, it's
Speaker 1: an expensive place to live. You've grown up a certain way,
Speaker 1: you like, you know, like you need to think about
Speaker 1: your income. And I hate to say that because I
Speaker 1: was lucky enough to do something I love, you know,
Speaker 1: and things have worked out pretty nicely. But what what's
Speaker 1: the response. It's ability to have companies to make sure
Speaker 1: that they have the future workforce and provide internships, but
Speaker 1: also pay more than a living way. It's like, where
Speaker 1: are we on that? I think we still have a
Speaker 1: lot of work to do there. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: entry level, why not share the wealth? Well, I agree
Speaker 1: with that, but I mean I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people see entry level workers as expendable. You know, there's
Speaker 1: big name companies that have come out and said we
Speaker 1: think we get everything out of a worker in three years.
Speaker 1: So if they want to leave no loss to us,
Speaker 1: that's a bad That is really a And you notice
Speaker 1: I'm not naming them on your show, but I mean, oh,
Speaker 1: if you could see the level above my head anyway,
Speaker 1: go ahead, you know, but if they would invest in people,
Speaker 1: give them the money up front. I mean this whole
Speaker 1: the COVID experience of people getting signing bonuses. Don't give
Speaker 1: me a signing bonus, give me a step up in salaries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right, Jane. What about labor unions? How does
Speaker 1: that fit into the conversation that we're having right now. Well,
Speaker 1: full disclosure, I'm a big proponent of organized bur When
Speaker 1: I was a teacher, I was a member of a
Speaker 1: f T. I think They give workers voice, you know,
Speaker 1: and people only get They only notice labor unions when
Speaker 1: there's a strike, and certainly we've had horrible strikes with
Speaker 1: John Deer and Kellogg right now that have created great
Speaker 1: supply chain issues. So I understand people's concern, but labor
Speaker 1: unions force a table conversation between workers and employers, and
Speaker 1: workers can be as hard headed and negative as employers
Speaker 1: can be. They bring them to the table and really
Speaker 1: create an environment where we're investing in each other. So
Speaker 1: when we talk about talent shortages or your own you know,
Speaker 1: make your entry level worker into your mid management person.
Speaker 1: And labor unions really have done that beautifully, not just
Speaker 1: in construction and manufacturing. Now you know, they certainly did
Speaker 1: it in teaching, but now we're starting to see, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the the organization that's the fastest organized is
Speaker 1: the cannabis sector. I mean, talk about that's really pretty
Speaker 1: cool because that's let workers are across the whole spectrum,
Speaker 1: people growing, people manufacturing, people selling. It's really cool. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. This was really terrific. Comeback anytime. It
Speaker 1: was productive conversation. Jane notes she's president of Working Nation,
Speaker 1: former Assistant Secretary Employment and training in the Obama administration. Yeah,
Speaker 1: please come back soon. Uh, just some really good things
Speaker 1: to think about. My mind is still spinning with Tim Statin, Beckam,
Speaker 1: Carol Masser. This is Bloomberg Radio.