1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Today we 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: have a returning guest and one that was really popular 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: on the show the first time she joined us. It 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: is journalist and cookbook author and Burne, who was on 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: the podcast in the fall of to talk about her 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: book American Cake, which traces the historical roots of recipes 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: that have been baked here in the US since the Colonies. 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: She has a follow up book, We're very excited it 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: is American Cookie, and that takes a similar look at 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: the cakes more petite and casual cousins and in this 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: book and shares stories about how war, rationing, slavery, and 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,319 Speaker 1: booming crops have all impacted the things people bake. There 15 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: are also lots and lots of fantastic historical recipes. Yeah, 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: we talked about it in the interview a little bit, 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: and we talked about it during our American Cake talk. 18 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: That she has done all of the hard work of 19 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: parsing out these historical recipes that did not always tell 20 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: you like what temperature to put your oven at, how 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: long to blend something for etcetera. And she has figured 22 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: all of that out and made it way easier for 23 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: you to make a historical recipe without having any guesswork. Nice. Yeah, 24 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: it's amazing. So I recommend that you grab your favorite 25 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: cookie or other snack for this one, because all of 26 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: the molasses and ginger talk certainly made me crave treats 27 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: while we were recording. Uh, And we will jump right 28 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: into my conversation with Anne Burn. So, first of all, 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: it's been two years since we last had you on 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: the show. Almost What have you been up to since 31 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: we talked last Oh, I've been researching the book American Cookie. Um. 32 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: Couldn't stop with cakes, Holly. I had to head to 33 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: head on into cookies. I understand they're delicious. Um. Immediately 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: when you told me you were doing this book, my 35 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: first question in my own head was, what if you 36 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: had to boil it down? Is the real distinction that 37 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: makes cookies different from cakes? Both like the baking part 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: and the cultural part. Yeah. Well, they're smaller for sure, 39 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: and they're you know, they're simple to produce. I mean 40 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: you just throw them together, but you know, technically, you know, 41 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: they're a different ratio cakes have the have the appropriate 42 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: ratio for them to rise of butter, sugar, flour, eggs, 43 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: and whatever levenings you want to throw in. Cookies are 44 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: a little higher ratio of um a fat, so they 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: tend to be a little crispier um. They don't and 46 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: they don't they're not heavy on levening, so they're not 47 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: going to rise that much. So sort of chemically that's 48 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: how they work. But I think on a different level, 49 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: cookies are very approachable. They're humble, they're spontaneous, and they're 50 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: very forgiving, which means that you can they welcome substitutions, 51 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: which is why cookie recipes survive the war years in rationing, 52 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: because people substituted out the wazoo because they used what 53 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: they had and and then they morph into new cookie 54 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: recipes that kind of become a part of, you know, 55 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: the way we beg today. I have not thought about that, Like, 56 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: if you substitute on a cake, you can really mess 57 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: up a cake, but a cookie will just be a 58 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: different cookie. It will and you know, most people are 59 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: not as judgmental. I think about a cookie. You just 60 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: eat it and where the cake. You know, if it 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: doesn't rise, it's not going to look good. And then 62 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: how are you going to get those layers all you 63 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: know that are not leveled to sort of level up 64 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: with frosting, and will it survive the car trip you know, 65 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: to get to your destination, whereas cookies just can pile 66 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: into anything, a plastic bag at ten, a box, anything 67 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: you actually let into a question I'm going to ask. 68 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: I was going to ask it in a bit, but 69 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: I'll do it now. So one of the things that 70 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: I loved about the last book was how you deconstructed 71 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: recipes um as an examination of like their regional area 72 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: and what sorts of resources were available and even cultural 73 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: things that made certain cakes popular. Is that harder with 74 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: cookies since they are inherently more portable, like they can 75 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: travel a little bit better, So I imagine recipes can 76 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, that's a really good point. It possibly 77 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: could be. I think also, um probably more people baked 78 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: cookies than cakes, and so if a recipe was in 79 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: say a Ladies magazine a hundred years ago, it would 80 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: be very doable for anybody in across the country. Cakes 81 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: have always kind of stood as more regional, Um they 82 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: stood for something that maybe were named after something that 83 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: was regional a person or a place. You had a 84 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: state cake. I think of only one state, maybe, well, 85 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: I think get back to that, have a state cookie. 86 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: So I think that cookies are yes, more transport portable 87 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: on different levels. Sorry, I just gave myself a pause 88 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: thinking about cookies because they're delicious. One of the things 89 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: that we talked about when I spoke with you last 90 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: was the tricky part of backwards engineering historical recipes because 91 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: they're not laid out as complete in terms of directions 92 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: as as they are now. Is does that hold true 93 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: for cookies as much as cakes. Yes, it does and um, 94 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: And I learned from the cake books that you know, 95 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: you can read so much into those ingredients and to 96 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: sort of open yourself to that and be mindful of 97 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: it as you start baking that old recipe. So I 98 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: was able to sort of take those those tricks and 99 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: to use them on the cookie book. For example, you know, 100 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: if you see lard being used, you assume it's a 101 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: rural recipe. Um. And if you see vegetable shortening being used, 102 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: you know it's after the turn of the twentieth century. 103 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: So there's just key indicates that I've learned and was 104 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: able to pick up on. But I think you know 105 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: cookies are they're funny, and that they're their ingredients are 106 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: are adaptable. You can change and you can substitute, um. 107 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: But you look at an old recipe and you still 108 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: have to kind of scratch your head. There was there 109 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: was one recipe called aunt Ida's wine drops, and I 110 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: found it scribbled in handwriting in the back of an 111 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,119 Speaker 1: old book, which was a digitized copy at the West 112 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:35,119 Speaker 1: Virginia Library, and I kept looking for the wine. There's 113 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: a wine and Ida would make them to serve with 114 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: wine because and that it is with an old recipe, 115 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: it's what happens. You're given the ingredients and then you've 116 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: got a lot of um thinking. You've got to think 117 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: through and finish the story. And I know you often 118 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: do many, many, many passes at a recipe before you 119 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: feel like you have have the yard it out and 120 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: nailed it. When you're trying to recreate historical ones, was 121 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: there one that was the hardest to replicate for you? Yes, 122 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: probably those something similar to the wine drops, which are 123 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: called rocks. Literally they are called rocks, and they're very 124 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: appatizing right the people. You know, people didn't this is 125 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: a good examp. People didn't go to a lot of 126 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: trouble to name a cookie recipe like they did a 127 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: k craftip. They just call it a rock because it 128 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: looked like a rock. It was just had a lot 129 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: of chopped nuts and dried fruit in it, and it 130 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: probably had weighed too much flour, and it was blobbed 131 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: on and dropped onto the baking sheet and it looked 132 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: like a rock. And when it baked, it really didn't 133 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: move a whole lot, and it baked up like a rock. 134 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: So I think making those and I knew that they 135 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: were important part of the cookie story in America for 136 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: lots of different reasons, and so I wanted the rocks 137 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: to taste good. So I took a lot of attempts 138 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: at the rocks. That's one example. There were many others. Yeah, uh. 139 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 1: And you also include did some items in this book 140 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: that I might not normally consider a cookie, like peanut 141 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: brittle is in there, and saw taffe is in there? 142 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: How did you decide which ones you were comfortable putting 143 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: under the umbrella of your book being named for cookies, 144 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: versus which which were too much of a candy for 145 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: you to exclude? Well, the full story is that initially 146 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: this book started out to be UM named American Bites, 147 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: and it would be all these sweet paste and bites 148 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: of America, and that was the working title. And as 149 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: I got into it, the majority of these were cookies. 150 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: But then there was that little ten percent that were 151 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: not cookies. They were the Dutch only cookes, the doughnuts, 152 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: the first seannuts, and they wore peanut brittle and so 153 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: essentially they were fried things and they were candy, and 154 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: I thought, gosh, you know, these are too important to 155 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: like exclude, UM, so I sort of snuffed them in 156 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: at the back of the book. Um, it's sort of 157 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: it's a bonus chapter and so if And what I 158 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: love about those combining those types of recipes in one 159 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: chapter is that they both involve fearlessness, because I think 160 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,599 Speaker 1: to fry and to candy, you have to be somewhat fearless, 161 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: and you you have to steal up and you have 162 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: to make it, and you need that you know, the 163 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: thermometer to tell you if the oil is hot enough 164 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: or as the sugar mixture has gotten to the right 165 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: point to take it off the stove. In making candy, 166 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: I just didn't want to exclude them. So no, you're right, 167 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: they're not cookies, but they're there in the book as 168 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: a bonus. Now, do you think or did your research 169 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: indicate that those kinds of confections that maybe aren't cookies 170 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: still had influence over you know, maybe cookie making or 171 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: even cake making or other parts of American cuisine. M question. 172 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if they had influence, but they definitely 173 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: have an important part in American cuisine because they typically 174 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: were made for income, and they were made by people 175 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: who needed to make rent that month. To think about 176 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: New Orleans, think about the street vendors, a woman who 177 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: may be supporting a number of children, and how did 178 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: she make money. She made aignas our collums, you know, 179 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: made out of rice, and would fry them and put 180 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: them in a basket and bring them warm to get 181 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: to the cathedral when mass was letting out and people 182 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: were hungry after fasting, and they bought her wares. So 183 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: it was income. And the same was true in New 184 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: Orleans for making proddlings. And it's so I think they 185 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: were too important of a street food for me to 186 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: leave them out of the book. And so that's why 187 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: they're there. Maybe they'll evolve into something else, because I 188 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: think it's really important, not only because of the method 189 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: it's that you need to make candy and fry things, 190 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: but because look at the people who needed to make 191 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: them and who knew how to make them. That's pretty amazing. 192 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you mentioned, you know, it's people that 193 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: needed to be able to get an income, because that, 194 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: to me would be what would bridge the gap of 195 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: being brave enough to deal with hot molten sugar, which 196 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: to me is one of the most terrifying substances alive. Ye. Yes, 197 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: you're exactly right, and that is a really good point. 198 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: And not only they had to do it, they had 199 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: to do it, and they could do it, and they 200 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: other people did not know how to do it, and 201 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: yet those confections were delicious, so there was a market 202 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: for them. I feel like we absolutely we talked about 203 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: it last time a little bit, but now in a 204 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: different light, we have to talk about gingerbread. Back to gingerbread, 205 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: yea well, because one it's delicious, but too we talked about, 206 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: you know, gingerbread in cake form when you included in 207 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: American cake, and of course gingerbread has to make an 208 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: appearance in an American cookies book. Um, I'm curious what 209 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: were the factors that contributed to it taking those two 210 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: separate forms, like what might lead someone down the cookie 211 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: path versus the cake path as they developed something. Well, 212 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: probably originally they were the same form. And if you 213 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: look back at the core ingredients of gingerbread, it's some 214 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: sort of flower, some sort of sweetener which originally would 215 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: have been British treacle, which then became American American made molasses, 216 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: and then you have your your if you use leavening. 217 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: It back in the old recipes it was very crude 218 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: and very bitter pearl ash potash, so you had to 219 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: mask that bitter flavor with spices. And that's why pearl 220 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: ash and potash worked so well in gingerbread recipes because 221 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: they could be masked spices, and then you would have 222 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: some kind of rea. You need some sort of acidic 223 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: ingredient in there to react with that. That base that 224 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: neutral um pear lash, potash leavening, and so that could 225 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: have been molasses which is acidic um and also butter 226 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: milk so or or clavered milk from the farm, so 227 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: you had an acidic ingredient you so you had leavening 228 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: you had rise, so I don't I think gingerbread and 229 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 1: and and really, in my research found that gingerbread was 230 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: just gingerbread. The Dutch were the ones who gave us 231 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: the mindset of a cookie, and the British brought over 232 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 1: the jumbles in the form of what we know is 233 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: sugar cookies. So the crispness of a cookie became sort 234 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: of to distinguish itself from gingerbread. Gingerbread was made in 235 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: very hardy, almost bread like by you know in New Orleans, 236 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: the stage planks they're called. They would sell those down 237 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: at the dot at the port, and people would put 238 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: people would put rum gingerbread and turn them into cookies 239 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: called Joe Froggers. And there were gingerbread recipes from all 240 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: different kinds of regions and backgrounds. Um And you look 241 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: at the basis for so many spice cookies and it's centrally, 242 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: really it's the gingerbread. The gingerbread cookie. It doesn't have 243 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: white sugar versus molasses or did it would have become 244 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: a depression cookie like a cray baby and use corn 245 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: syrup because sugar was rationed. So the most basic American 246 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: cake and probably the most basic American cookie us the 247 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: Genterman So Tracy, one of my friends gifted me with 248 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: a bottle of chocolate rum a while back, Um, and 249 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: I have not used much of it because I'm not 250 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: much of a rum drinker. But now I one want 251 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: to use it in a batch of Joe Froggers. That 252 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: sounds like a great plan and is actually going to 253 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about gingerbread in just a moment, 254 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: and she gives a little tip on making gingerbread suitable 255 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: for building houses. First, we're going to pause though for 256 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break one. I wanted to ask you 257 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: were there any evolutions of the gingerbread cookie, since you 258 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: mentioned that it took many different forms, and you know 259 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: spice cookies are also very much of that same origin point, 260 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: Were there any of the evolutionary developments in it that 261 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: surprised you? Did you ever stumble across the recipe and 262 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: go that is interesting? Um? Probably the Joe Frogger's recipe, 263 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: And that is a New England recipe. It's old, you know, 264 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: it has rumen and and it's got all these kind 265 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: of folk stories on did it start at this tavern? 266 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: And did they put rum in it? Because it was 267 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: the tavern and they had rum available, which is yes um. 268 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: I think that that was that was such a good story. 269 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: That recipe was really hard in the kitchen to get 270 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: it to work because it had so much rummen and 271 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: it kept spreading out on the pan. And they do 272 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: make really big cookies, but boy, the next day they're 273 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: so delicious. That rum really keeps of the cookie moist um. 274 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of there are a lot 275 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: of fun I think in modern day baking we just 276 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: don't see as many gingerbread cookies as we used to. 277 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: The very first recipe in the book is one of 278 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: my favorites and it is a family recipe that was 279 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: shared with me, and it is a recipe that is 280 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: still baked today. And it's example how a gingerbread cookie 281 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: has um has evolved through the years and through different generations. 282 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: And it's Grandma Hartman's molasses cookies. It is a gingerbread 283 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: and Grandma Hartman might have used was was was amish, 284 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: and they may have used lard in it at one 285 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: point special occasions. Um they might have used butter, but 286 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: they began to use vegetable shortenings as the next generation 287 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: came about and then this, this young woman who shared 288 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: the recipe with me, doesn't want to make them with 289 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: vegetable shortening anymore, and she makes them with better So 290 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: it's a great example how a basic gingerbread cookie has 291 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: kind of has lasted in a family. Great story. It 292 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: is interesting. I think you mentioned that gingerbread cookies aren't 293 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: made as much anymore, and I think there's this weird 294 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: fear of them, like people have the perception that they're 295 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: very hard to make and that they don't turn out 296 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: well very often. But there I've been him a few times. 297 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: I'm not a pro, but I can usually get a 298 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: cookie to come out of it. Yeah, are you talking 299 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: about like a drop cookie? Are you talking like a 300 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: molded like a cut cookie? I mean, I've done both. 301 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: What usually ends up happening is that I try to 302 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: do a molded cookie, and then I know those may 303 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: break coming out of the mold, So I also just 304 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: make some flat ones nearby and let those bake, just 305 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: because I also want to munch on them while I 306 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: build the house. That's true, Well, okay building the house 307 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: there you go to to build a house out of gingerbread, 308 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: That gingerbread has to be pretty sturdy, and to be sturdy, 309 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: it has to have a good bit of flour in it, 310 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: which is how the the original ginger Brea cookies, that's 311 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: how they were made. They had a lot of flour 312 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: in them. And the reason for that is that people 313 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: there was no refrigeration, so you know, people were adding 314 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: flour to a cookie dough and to make it workable 315 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: and to roll it out. You couldn't chill a dough. 316 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: You couldn't let it rest in the fridge overnight. Um, 317 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: you couldn't, you know, put it cold on the counter 318 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: and start sort of gradually working it. No, it was 319 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: just sticky. And you think about making those in the 320 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: summertime or it was no air conditioning, no refrigeration, so 321 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: what did you do? You kept adding flour to it 322 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: to make it workable. I mean, my grandmother made cookies 323 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: this way and I remember and I remember her cookies 324 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: were delicious, but they were dry, and it was because 325 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: she used more flour than we would use today and 326 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: we can get away with less flour because of refrigeration. 327 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: I also want to go back a little bit. You 328 00:18:53,920 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: mentioned the British culture bringing this sugar cookie over um, 329 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: and to me, the like a sugar cookie is so 330 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: ubiquitous it seems like kind of your standard. If someone 331 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: said I want a cookie and they gave you no specifics, 332 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: you'd probably go a sugar cookie to be safe. Is 333 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: that one that has multiple different starting points or is 334 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: it pretty a pretty clear path? And I think it's 335 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: the original ones were pretty pretty basic. You had flour 336 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: and white sugar and butter, and if you had any 337 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: flavoring at all, and and maybe an egg. Probably the 338 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: sugar cookies, most all of them did early have an egg, 339 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: but some recipes, the Dutch recipes, do not have eggs 340 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: in them, and so the egg will make it snap, 341 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: egg keeps it snappier, for a lack of a better word, 342 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: and the egg without an egg it's snappier. With an egg, 343 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: it makes it sort of brown better and cakier. And 344 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: then you would have had them flavored with lemon or 345 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: lavender or crushed coriander sees caraway foods. Those would have 346 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: been the early flavoring for something like a sugar cookie. 347 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: So I think there was a basis, but then it 348 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: just exploded because depending on again where you lived, what 349 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: you used, um what was available at the time, and 350 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: then did you start using did you start adding uh, 351 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: levening to it? And Levening changed the texture of the 352 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: original jumble the English sugar cookie into what we know 353 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: today as a teacake. Um, so did you also mentioned 354 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: Dutch sugar cookies. Is there a clear origin point of 355 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: where sugar cookie started since they are so basic? I 356 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: think that I don't. I bet they were being made. 357 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: I don't have that particular answer, but my my educated 358 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: guest is that they were being made long ago in 359 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: both England and Germany as when also in the Netherlands. 360 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: Any place where people were there was baking, where there 361 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: were those basic ingredients, which was just flour and sugar 362 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: and eggs and butter, you would have had what you 363 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: needed to make a sugar cookie. And ironically, sugar cookies 364 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: have remained the American favorite because the ingredients are so basic, 365 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: but at times through our history were rationed or were unavailable. 366 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: And if um, a lot of what I read said that, 367 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, people may have they got through periods with 368 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 1: a sugar cookie, or they ate oatmeal cookies, you know, 369 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: because you were supposed to save the wheat for the 370 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: troops and baked with oaths. But when it comes down 371 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: to it if they had their pick. Their favorite cookie 372 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: is a sugar cookie because it's delicious, sasic and delicious 373 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: yet it And I've got several really good recipes in 374 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: the book because an Irene sugar cookie is terrific, as 375 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: is the first Girl Scout cookie is a great little recipe. 376 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: Oh good to know. Oh, there's so much speaking in 377 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: my future. Um. Since the United States is such a 378 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: melting pot, has it developed its own sort of cookie 379 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: identity as a whole apart from those of other countries 380 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 1: or does it remain kind of a globally influenced landscape 381 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: for lack of a better word. That's interesting. UM, I 382 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: would say that Americans are known throughout the world as 383 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,239 Speaker 1: being good cookie baker, and cookies have definitely been a 384 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: part of our food ways and our story throughout history. 385 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: We do it well, and we do a like because 386 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: of the melting pot. We do an array of cookies, 387 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: from gingerbread too and is flavored, the Cheetahs from New 388 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: Mexico to chocolate Chip, the revered Chocolate Chip, to the 389 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 1: sugar cookies like you mentioned, to marangue cookies macarin. They 390 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: are so variable and because we are a melting pot, 391 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: and so many different cultures came here and brought their 392 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: traditions and the Navian pepper nuts. We have this vast 393 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: cookie jar and it's just it's very exciting. It was 394 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: fun to research. Coming up. We actually still have a 395 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: whole lot more from an including a recipe that traveled 396 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: to the US through the slave trade, and we'll talk 397 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: about how the combination of an overabundant crop and World 398 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: War One led to some innovations in baking with bananas. First, 399 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: we're going to hear from another sponsor that keeps the 400 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: show going. One of the things that I love that 401 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: you included was recipes and discussion of cookies that traveled 402 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: to the US from Africa via the slave trade. Will 403 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about those, Yes, well you 404 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: talk about the benny the Bennie seeds. Anyway, first, yes, 405 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: I think you know, looking at old recipes you have, 406 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: you the first step is to look at the ingredients 407 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: because you're not going to get a method. And so 408 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: it was very, um, very important for me to include 409 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: recipes in here that were ingredient driven, and if you 410 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: looked at them, you said, well that recipe came from 411 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: a specific area but those Benny you know, the Benny 412 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: seeds are critical to making that cookie. You can make 413 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: them with sesame seeds, but they're much better if you 414 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: order the Benny seeds. And now, and they originally did 415 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: come from Africa with the slave trade, but you can 416 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: find the Bennie seeds and local markets today in South Carolina. 417 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: You can mail order them if you want to and something. 418 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: And I have actually have friends in Charleston who grow 419 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: the benny plants in their backyard. But they had their 420 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: smaller than a sessome seed and they have but they 421 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: have that kind of nutty flavor and they're really just 422 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: I think they're just lovely. And the whole idea of 423 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: somebody putting seeds in their pockets, Polly and traveling and 424 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: bringing those seeds here and planting that of seeds and 425 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: the slaves did that, and they planted those seeds and 426 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, to produce a plant um that was originally 427 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: um cultivated for oil for salad oil. How common is 428 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: the origin of something like that obscured like was It 429 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: hasn't always been known that those basically those Benny seeds 430 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: came over in the pockets of people who had been 431 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: taken for slavery or did it take a little while 432 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: to figure out that that was really what started this? 433 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: I think probably it took a while to figure out, 434 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: but I think it's known that they were always linked 435 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: to um, to the cooks and the slaves of the 436 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: low country. Those were the cooks who were industrious, and 437 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,479 Speaker 1: just like in researching American cake, I found that, you know, 438 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: those recipes that take a little bit of care and 439 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: take a little bit of time, and if they come 440 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: from the Deep South, they were most often made by 441 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: the the help by the enslaved people, and cookies are 442 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more um easier to prepare. Let's say that, 443 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: um much easier than say making the seven minute frosting 444 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: or for creating a pound cake, actually eating a poundcake 445 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: a hand without a kitchen aide, cracking a coconut and 446 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: and shredding it. Um that you know, baking cakes in 447 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: America was a was a task, was a physical task. 448 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: Cookies not as much so, but they still have a story. 449 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: So one of my very favorite cookies is the oatmeal cookie, 450 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: which you mentioned has an interesting history of its own. 451 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: Were you talking about that a little bit? Yes, I 452 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: love oatmeal cookies. Too. You know, oatmeal has been popular 453 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: in baking for oh gosh, a hundred and fifty years 454 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: or more, but it became more of a common ingredient 455 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: um when when flour was rationed for War War One. 456 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: So that's when cooks were we're encouraged to add more 457 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: oats to their bread recipes and their cookie recipes kind 458 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: of harder with a cake. Um, and it became oatmeal 459 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: cookies became very patriotic. They became a wheat saving recipe 460 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: in America. So Quaker just of course picked up on that. 461 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: The oatmeal cookies that we associate with Quaker is the 462 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: vanishing oatmeal cookie. I think it's been on the side 463 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: of the canister since about nineteen thirty nine. Um, they 464 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: took a while. The first recipe with oatmeal was an 465 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: oat cake, probably not as pop piller. The oatmeal cookie 466 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: has left it a lot longer. Yeah, we're not really 467 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: eat seeing much oatcake in bakeries today, not oat cakes. Yeah. 468 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: So I will confess to you that in my love 469 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: of oatmeal cookies, what I hate is an oatmeal raisin 470 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: cookie because I don't like fruit added to my stuff. Um. 471 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: But there's a good reason for it. Will you talk 472 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: about that a little bit. Yes, dried fruit pops up 473 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: in so many cookie recipes, and you wonder did they 474 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 1: did they just use more dried fruit in throughout history, 475 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: And the answer is yes they did. Um it was available, 476 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: people used and got accustomed to drive fruit because of 477 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: sugar rationing, so more when sugar was not available to 478 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: go in cookies, these industrious cooks would turn to raisins 479 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: or dates um and use them, oftentimes coconut um, just 480 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: anything that would have been sweet or was used in 481 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: place of sugar. Also, and they found that the more 482 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: dried fruits or dried nuts, so you lived in an 483 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: area where black walnuts trees or in your backyard, the 484 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: more black walnuts that you added to the to the dough, 485 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: the further the dough would go, and the more cookies 486 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: you can make. That gets back to the rock rock 487 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: cookies that earlier. And just like in fruit cakes that 488 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: are that same genre, the more dried fruit you put 489 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: in a cookie, they're more moist it is and it 490 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: keeps longer. So without UH, without refrigeration or or even 491 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: the having a freeze, or people could store UH cookies 492 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: that had oatmeal. Raisin cookies would keep longer and taste 493 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,239 Speaker 1: more moist and retain moisture than just a plain ol 494 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: oatmeal cook. Now there is a fruit based recipe in 495 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: your book that to me is really fascinating because it 496 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: has a connection to Hawaii. And will you talk about 497 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: how that came about. Yes, it's a banana drop cookie. 498 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: And I was just uncovered this the story, um, when 499 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 1: I was researching We War one recipes that in uh 500 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: about nine in Hawaii there was just a huge banana crop, 501 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: just a boom. But as the US had entered World 502 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: War One, the transport ships were not available to take 503 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: these big harvest of bananas to the mainland. So the 504 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: bananas were sitting, and they were sitting. And so there's 505 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: a great story about how the Agricultural um Experiment station 506 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: there got on board. The wife of actually the director 507 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: got in the kitchen and started trying to create everything 508 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: she could with bananas. They even asked Hawaiians to eat 509 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: a banana a day instead of a slice of bread. 510 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: That back to the patriotic that it was more patriotic 511 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: to eat a banana than it would be saved the 512 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,239 Speaker 1: bread for the troops. Um, that all change, you know, 513 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: refrigerated transport ships. Um, we're really had had turned the 514 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: whole banana industry around all over the world and actually 515 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: helped the meat industry as well because they came about 516 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: in the nine so refrigerated transport was available these steamships. Ah, 517 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: but when we went into World War One, these ships 518 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: were needed for the war. And you kind of lead 519 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: into another question, which is that you talk a lot 520 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: about the distinction of a war cookie versus other cookies. Um, 521 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: is there like a shorthand way that somebody who's maybe 522 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: looking at old dressipes would instantly know what a war 523 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: cookie was based on the ingredients. Definitely, you can look 524 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: at the ingredients and if it has dates back to 525 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: the dried fruit dates, prunes, prune you know, think of 526 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: the prune keg, but prune dates, coconut um, sweeteners like 527 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: corn syrup would have been used, vegetable shortening, margarine used 528 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: instead of butter. Yeah, those are like tip off oats 529 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: that that the cookie came out of the war and 530 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: a lot of the no bake cookies that are still 531 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,239 Speaker 1: popular in some families. And actually I found that some 532 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: of the no bakes or have roots in Appalachia, Uh, 533 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: that they also came out of the war effort. But 534 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: there were war cookies that were handed down generations and 535 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: they might be they might have oats or later peanut 536 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: butter or dates in them, and it was just sort 537 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: of a thick batter um that was sort of rolled 538 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: together and they don't go in the oven. It's interesting 539 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: you kind of sparked my brain regarding another question that 540 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: I was not thinking about, but now I am at 541 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: what point did peanut butter get introduced into cookies. Peanut 542 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: butter was really introduced in the nineteen thirties into cookies 543 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: as part of the school inch programs. So I think 544 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: that's a really fascinating era of our history, American history. 545 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: Because the thirties, a lot of people were out of work, 546 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: women particular needed to work and UM and families were 547 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: on hard times. So the federal government got involved and 548 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: created the subsidized school lunch program. Uh. Doing that, they 549 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: also started employing women in school cafeterias. Hoo became the 550 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: lunch ladies. UM. And what happens when you bring women 551 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: into the kitchen, they get creative and they started using 552 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: ingredients that were available. Maybe they were a subsidized ingredient. 553 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: They had a whole lot of it. What are you 554 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: gonna do with it? You're gonna make something and when 555 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: in the case of peanut butter, they turned those into 556 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: some of the first peanut butter cookie recipes. Um. Plus, 557 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: those cookies were made with special shortening. It was sort 558 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: of the fat of the times, and it was perfect 559 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: for school lunch because it was shelf stable, so they 560 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: could bake those. They were shelf stable, the children of 561 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: them And in that photo is on the cover of 562 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: the book because to me, that really says it all 563 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: about American cookie. I mean, we cookies are made by everybody. 564 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 1: Therefore everybody. They came out of creativity and hard time, 565 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: and they're just so unapologetic. I mean, we just love them, 566 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: oh the best. It's funny because I associate peanut butter 567 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: cookies with school lunches. But I just thought that was 568 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: because that was what my school's always served, not realizing 569 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: that was in fact where they originated. It is where 570 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: they originated. And it's so interesting now that you know 571 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: peanut butter cannot be served in many school lunch rims 572 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: because of allergic reactions, Like kids are allergic. Um, so 573 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: we've come kind of you know, we're not seeing it 574 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: as much. UM. I asked a similar question when we 575 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: talked about cake. Uh, so I will ask it again 576 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: in relation to cookies. What would you suggest as a 577 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: good cookie to start with for people who maybe want 578 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: to try a little historical baking but they're not super 579 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: experienced or not feeling terribly confident about it yet. But 580 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: you could go down different avenues. We talked about the 581 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: ginger based cookies, so you know, I would say, start 582 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: with the first recipe in the book, which is Grandma 583 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: Hartmann's molasses cookies, and see how a multigenerational family recipe 584 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: can be adapted in so many ways. And then with 585 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: that recipe in your head, continue reading in the book, 586 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: and you're going to see all kinds of different ginger cookies. 587 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: The same could be done for the sugar cookies. You're 588 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: gonna see some differences. I've got an old Dutch tcake 589 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: recipe in here that has a lot of flour in it, 590 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: and it makes a lot of cookies. Um, but it's 591 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: delicious and who would have you know such basic ingredients. 592 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 1: It's just delicious and so simple and pristine. Um. Then 593 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: make something like the Jackson jumbles which would have been 594 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: an eighteen thirties recipe, which was the jumble recipe from 595 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: the British with leavening at it and see how and 596 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: that was we were on the road to the tea 597 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: cake here, and that would have been around the time 598 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds. It was named for Andrew Jackson because 599 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: he was a man, a president who kind of did 600 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: his own thing. And these cookies are are were revolutionary 601 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: at the time, so to think they were different. Who 602 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: would have thought about adding baking soda too to a 603 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: jumble recipe? And yet they're really lovely. Um So I 604 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: think I think picking a sugar cookie type cookie, an 605 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: old Dutch or an English recipe, the old jumbles, the 606 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: Jackson jumbles, and then making something like the tea cakes. 607 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: And I've got several tea cakes. I've got a old 608 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: fashioned teacake, Victorian ginger teacake, and and an old Edenton 609 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: the Eatenton tea party kegs, which is an old recipe 610 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: that's been made new. Yeah. I have to ask you 611 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: this Sophie's choice question. Yeah, do you have a favorite? Yeah? Oh, 612 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: you're gonna ask that. Um it kind of it depends, 613 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: it really depends. I'm a chocolate girl. I think I 614 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: think you know that I love chocolate. You mentioned chocolate 615 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: cake was your answer when we talked about cakes. So yeah, yeah, 616 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: I'm a chocolate girl. So so I really I love 617 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: a good chocolate chip cookie. And I'll tell you, Um, 618 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: the original chocolate chip cookie recipe in this book is terrific. 619 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: So that would have been the one that was made 620 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: at the Toll House and in Whipman, Massachusetts and in 621 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, and so it was. I love that 622 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: it's Ruth Wakefield's chocolate crunch cookies because that was a 623 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: story where she ran out of baking cocoa and had 624 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: to subs for her chocolate cookies and had to substitute 625 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: just chopped bar chocolate and the rest is history. I 626 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: like that recipe because it's delicious. And also you can 627 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: turn the whole thing into like a cast iron skillet 628 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: and make this big, old warm chocolate chip cookies out 629 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,439 Speaker 1: of that same recipe, So that's really good. Um. Also, 630 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: the lemon my lemon bar recipe in here, and I 631 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,280 Speaker 1: call it best ever, it really is. It's the best. 632 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: It's the best one. Um. I love Katherine Hepburn's brownie 633 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: recipe that's in here. I like Emily Dickinson's rice cakes. 634 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: They're like short bread, really really nice. Mm hmm. And 635 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: and I think the in the macaroon recipes and the 636 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: mareau and the Forgotten cookies. Have you ever baked forgotten cookie? 637 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: I have not, but they're on my list now, Okay, 638 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: Dara m Chocolate you actually leave in the oven, and 639 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: when you leave them in the oven, they get real 640 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: chrui and good. I am so grateful for this conversation. Uh. 641 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,760 Speaker 1: And probably you're curious about Ann's book. So American Cookie 642 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: is available now wherever books are sold. And it is 643 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: a dangerous delight. I have already bookmarked like thirty recipes. 644 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: They're gonna have to wait for me until it's a 645 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: little cooler. It is too hot to turn the oven 646 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: on right now. But you can keep up with Ant's 647 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: work at her website at and burn dot com. That's 648 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: a n N e b y r n dot com. 649 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: And she's on social media as at and burn again 650 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: a n N E b y r N. Many many 651 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: thanks too, and for chatting with me and sharing her 652 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: insights and knowledge. I absolutely love every time I get 653 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: to talk to her. She is just a delightful person 654 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: and even if she had nothing historical to talk about, 655 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: I would still just want to hang out and talk 656 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: with her. And again, I have a long list of 657 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: recipes I want to make from that book. So for 658 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: a listener, my and I thought we would also include 659 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: something that was about food. It's a short one since uh, 660 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 1: this interview is a little bit longer. It is from 661 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: our listener, Taylor, and Taylor writes, I love listening to 662 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: the podcast. Uh, this email is a little late. It 663 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: only hit me recently that you might like to hear 664 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: the story. I recently visited Scotland with some friends and 665 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: on our visit we went to the town of Poetry 666 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 1: on the Isle of Sky. I may be mispronouncing that. 667 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: My apologies, VAM. That's me. I ordered a fish dish 668 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: for dinner that night, and when it came, we were 669 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 1: all perplexed by the sauce for lack of a better word, 670 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: that was on top. It was like nothing I'd ever tasted, 671 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: and it was absolutely delicious. I asked the waitress what 672 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: it was and she said rare bit. She listed off 673 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: what was in it and said it was a cheese 674 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: sauce quote like in macaroni and cheese. This of course 675 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,760 Speaker 1: confused US Americans because, as one of my friends put it, quote, 676 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: my cheese sauce comes dry and a packet from a box. Yes, 677 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: for international listeners, that is the said truth for many Americans. Um, 678 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: but lots of people make their own cheese sauce with 679 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: real cheese, just Taylor writes, Apart from committing the name 680 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: to me, Marie, we thought nothing more about it. Could 681 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: you imagine my surprise when the very first podcast I 682 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: listened to when I was back in the States was 683 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: Windsor mackay Part one. I immediately told my friends the 684 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: info you had in the podcast on rare Bit. They 685 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: were very disappointed that I did not get to listen 686 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,720 Speaker 1: to it before the trip. And in case you were wondering, 687 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: I did not have any strange dreams that night. So 688 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: that is of course referring to the windsor McKay comic 689 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: strip Dreams of a rare Bit Fiend, which were these 690 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: fantastical stories all told on the presumption that the main 691 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 1: character was having crazy dreams because he couldn't stop eating 692 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: rare bit at late at night before bed. Um. So 693 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: thank you, Taylor. That sounds amazing. Uh, did you get 694 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: a recipe for that rare bit? Because I'll try it. 695 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: I'll just add it to my list after the cookies. 696 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: I love it. If anybody else has tried rare bit, 697 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,959 Speaker 1: true rare bit, I would love to hear a story 698 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: about it when it tasted like I have had it, 699 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: but it's been a while and I always love a 700 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: good cheese story. So if you would like to send 701 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: us your cookies, or you are a rare bit or whatever, pictures, discussions, etcetera, 702 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: you can do so at History podcast at house Toks 703 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: dot com. We are also on social media as Missed 704 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,799 Speaker 1: in the History pretty much everywhere, and we're it missed 705 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: in History dot com. If you want to check out 706 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,439 Speaker 1: the archives for all of the episodes of the show 707 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: that have ever existed, including those from previous hosts. Uh, 708 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: you should absolutely come and visit us at missed in 709 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: History dot com and you can subscribe to our show 710 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 1: Stuff You Missed in History Class on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, 711 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. For more on this 712 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how staff works dot com.