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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 1: Paul Mission Controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. It's the first of a two

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Speaker 1: part series. We were very interested in a question sent

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Speaker 1: to us by a fellow conspiracy realists asking who are

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Speaker 1: the world's most dangerous prisoners. Luckily, the four of us

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Speaker 1: here can confirm that we have. None of us been

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Speaker 1: imprisoned in the United States. Uh. If you live in

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Speaker 1: the United States, it's one of the places in the

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Speaker 1: world where you're most likely to go to prison, which

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Speaker 1: is a real bummer to think about, right way, I

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Speaker 1: can confirm that, right, none of us. Uh. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I've never been there in prison, but I've

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Speaker 1: seen oz so Uh. I kind of get the vibe

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Speaker 1: that shilling Oar was a real pill, right yeah. And

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta, we used to have a maximum security prison

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Speaker 1: which is now a medium security slash low security prison.

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Speaker 1: I thought it wasn't even functional anymore. It just looks spooky.

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Speaker 1: It's the big one that used to like, how is

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Speaker 1: I think al Capone back in the day. It's over

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Speaker 1: there by the music store and the really good taco shop. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some of the best tacos in town. Oh yeah. It

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Speaker 1: was the second federal penitentiary that was ever created in

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Speaker 1: this country, right in our fair city. Yeah, because back

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Speaker 1: then Atlanta didn't have the political juice to make a nimbrgument.

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Speaker 1: Not in my backyard argument. For a time, it was

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Speaker 1: also home to someone the media dubbed the world's most

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Speaker 1: dangerous prisoner. Will get into that as well, and uh, personally,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a little bit more of a media

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Speaker 1: term than a factual statement. But to answer this question,

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Speaker 1: we have to go to some strange places. And to

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Speaker 1: be clear, first we have to focus on the US

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Speaker 1: and this episode, and with your help, folks, we can

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Speaker 1: expand to other continents in future shows. And with that mind,

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Speaker 1: here are the facts. Who there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: locked up more and more and more, it seems, uh,

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Speaker 1: not just in the US, but in the world, there's

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Speaker 1: a If you're feeling like you're not depressed enough when

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Speaker 1: you tuned into this episode, please check out something called

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Speaker 1: the World Prison Population List. They survey two hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty three different prison systems in countries and territories over

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Speaker 1: these possessions across the planet. They found that there are

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Speaker 1: more than ten point three five million people incarcerated throughout

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Speaker 1: the world on record. So that's caveat that doesn't count

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Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff, as we'll see. Yeah, and most

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Speaker 1: of most of those prisoners that are counted there are

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Speaker 1: in the US, so we've gone around two point to million. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that means that statistically, odds are in favor of the

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Speaker 1: world's most dangerous prisoner being here in the States. That's

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Speaker 1: just the math. But that you know, it's not to

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Speaker 1: say other countries are not without horrific problems. The report

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Speaker 1: goes on to shout out a country at least I

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Speaker 1: wasn't expecting. Yeah, and uh, it comes from a country

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Speaker 1: that I was personally not even aware of, called Satchels,

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Speaker 1: which has the highest prison population rate in the world.

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Speaker 1: According to the report. You sided previously um with seven

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Speaker 1: nine per one hundred thousand of its total population incarcerated.

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Speaker 1: So basically, it's one of those places where, like several

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Speaker 1: places in the US, if you live there, you probably

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Speaker 1: know someone who's been to prison, if you haven't been

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Speaker 1: to prison yourself. Yeah, and it's it is a pretty

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Speaker 1: small country. It's off the it's in the East Indian Ocean,

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Speaker 1: off the eastern coast of the African continent. And the

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Speaker 1: population is about one hundred thousand, four forty seven people.

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Speaker 1: So not the biggest place, right. There are cities that

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Speaker 1: are much larger than than the entire population in the country.

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Speaker 1: But still, Matt, your point holds true. Uh, and I

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Speaker 1: love that you point out this is this reality in

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Speaker 1: some parts of the United States, right, especially historically disadvantaged communities.

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Speaker 1: Nothing occurs in a vacuum. There are a lot of

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Speaker 1: intergenerational structural things that lead people to a higher likelihood

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Speaker 1: of imprisonment. And these global statistics, says we said, they

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Speaker 1: sadly miss a lot of information. They don't account for

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Speaker 1: black sites. Remember those? How the news just stopped carrying

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Speaker 1: about those amid the War on Terror? Uh? What is

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Speaker 1: a black site? It's a cool name for a horrible thing. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a place that generally an intelligence organization outfit, maybe

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Speaker 1: in concert with a military or just a military itself,

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Speaker 1: they put together in secret to secret away prisoners, usually

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Speaker 1: prisoners of war, prisoners of a major conflict. And the

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Speaker 1: key there is that they're off the books, allowing them

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Speaker 1: to perhaps operate outside of the bounds of accepted methods.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say entertainments and forms of enhanced interrogation, because

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Speaker 1: it's it's usually an information gathering. That's the purpose, right,

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Speaker 1: It's to gather information from enemy combatants. And check out

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Speaker 1: our episodes on torture if you're still not depressed enough.

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Speaker 1: Whether or not torture works, enhanced interrogation is such a

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Speaker 1: such a fatuous term. I mean, it's like it's like

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Speaker 1: calling punching somebody a vigorous caress. Enhanced interrogation is torture

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Speaker 1: in many cases. And whether or not you believe torture

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Speaker 1: does work, it's important to be honest and call it

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Speaker 1: what it is. Uh it look, even in the legally

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Speaker 1: sanctioned prison systems across the world, I think everybody can

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Speaker 1: agree the vast majority of those are broken in one

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Speaker 1: way or another. I mean, I'll never forget the first

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Speaker 1: time I saw, uh, interior photos of some Scandinavian prisons

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Speaker 1: right where where people are honestly, you know, not to

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Speaker 1: diminish the fact that they're locked up. People are honestly

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Speaker 1: having a higher standard of living then a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks the United States. It's just a fact. If you

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Speaker 1: have you got you guys have seen those pictures, right,

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Speaker 1: They got PlayStations, they get they have the right to

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Speaker 1: cook all all sorts of stuff. So prisons are very

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Speaker 1: much not created equally. If you want to think of

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Speaker 1: famous broken prisons, think of some South American countries where

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Speaker 1: gangs more or less run the prisons. They're supposed to

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Speaker 1: imprison them now and then. And this some of this

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Speaker 1: is a numbers game. I found one thing, uh that

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Speaker 1: was of interest fromen some research for American Political Science

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Speaker 1: Review found that in a prison in Rio de Janeiro

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Speaker 1: in Brazil, there were one thousand, four hundred prisoners. Guess

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Speaker 1: how many prison officials worked there. Okay, no, you want

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Speaker 1: to make it, I'm gonna say a hundred. The answer

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Speaker 1: is six. Wow. I really thought I was jokingly under

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Speaker 1: under selling the tw Wow. Uh did you guys hear

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Speaker 1: about the I think it's the Maryland prison system where

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Speaker 1: there was a group called the Black Guerrilla Family and

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Speaker 1: they had essentially infiltrated the guards within like three or

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Speaker 1: four different facilities, and they were essentially a gang was

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Speaker 1: running the prisons to some extent. There were over two

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Speaker 1: hundred officials who worked for the prison system. They got

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Speaker 1: charged in twenty nineteen, I think, um, but two hundred

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Speaker 1: officials were doing it. They were just bringing in contraband

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Speaker 1: basically doing things for the gangs inside the prison and

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Speaker 1: outside the prison. It's nuts. That is that that might

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Speaker 1: be an episode. I heard of Black Gorilla, but I

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Speaker 1: hadn't heard of this situation. Matt. This is the first

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Speaker 1: time learning about this. For me, that's fascinating, and uh,

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Speaker 1: it could be illustrative of other other things on the horizon.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's something that we have never done an

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Speaker 1: episode on partially just because of the gruesomeness of it.

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Speaker 1: But South African prisons are often run by a criminal

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Speaker 1: series of criminal organizations called numbers gangs and how okay,

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Speaker 1: so we haven't done this on air. It's uh, it's brutal.

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Speaker 1: Two to give you just a taste of some of

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Speaker 1: the regular activities. Uh, these gangs used to enforce the

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Speaker 1: rule on the prison system. Uh, it is a known

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Speaker 1: punishment when someone steps out a line to have an

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Speaker 1: HIV positive attacker sliced the buttocks of the victim and

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Speaker 1: then assault them. Oh yeah, then that's just one thing.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's very brutal. And again, the the government

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Speaker 1: of South Africa has not had a lot of luck

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Speaker 1: tampi down on that broken system. And then of course

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Speaker 1: there's the United States prison system here is a multibillion

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Speaker 1: dollar business. When UH, private prisons came under fire, they

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Speaker 1: smoothly transition to detaining undocumented populations. And the prison system

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Speaker 1: itself is clearly descended directly from the days of slavery.

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Speaker 1: It's true, okay, but so we can all agree prison

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Speaker 1: systems have problems. But on the other hand, there's no

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Speaker 1: denying it. Most people are good when given the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to be so. But some people just can't be allowed

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Speaker 1: to mingle with the general public. They just cannot they're

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Speaker 1: too dangerous. Yeah, we're talking about murderers, serial assaulters, um

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Speaker 1: names that you may recognize like Pedro Lopez, the Monster

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Speaker 1: of the Andes or John Wayne Gacy, you know, the

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Speaker 1: clown guy that kind of ruined clowns for everybody, UM

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Speaker 1: and the MA in America anyway. Lopez, by the way,

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Speaker 1: that dude, every time I hear that name, see it

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Speaker 1: written down, I just want to fight things. Hundreds hundreds

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Speaker 1: of children and uh. He was in our Uncaught serial Killer,

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Speaker 1: one of our unconst serial Killer episodes, because he had

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Speaker 1: been released from an Ecuadorian prison in August of ninety

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Speaker 1: four and then re arrested instantly as an illegal immigrant

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Speaker 1: and handed over the border to Columbia, and then he

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Speaker 1: was held there in a hospital until where he was

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Speaker 1: declared sane, released on the equivalent of a fifty dollar bail,

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Speaker 1: and no one knows what happened to him since now

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Speaker 1: both Gaycy is dead thankfully, UM Lopez is probably dead

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Speaker 1: at this point. But we have to ask who are

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous prisoners today? Will start in the US

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Speaker 1: afterward from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Well,

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Speaker 1: given all that there's not really just what, there's unfortunately

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Speaker 1: a long list of candidates. There are as many candidates

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Speaker 1: for most dangerous prisoner as there are podcast, which means

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Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah. Yeah, Well, let's let's start with this

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Speaker 1: guy that I found on some random websites, and Ben,

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Speaker 1: you found him on some better websites. Dude named Tom

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Speaker 1: Silverstein Thomas Silverstein. And it's fascinating that he's listed as

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Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous prisoners because he doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like a particularly good fellow. But he also doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like somebody that prison officials would be terrified of, except

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Speaker 1: for one action that he took right also known as

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Speaker 1: Terrible Tom Uh. Until his death in twenty nineteen, this

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Speaker 1: guy was called the most dangerous prisoner in the States

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Speaker 1: or in the world, but it was this stood out

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Speaker 1: as well met to me. I don't know if the

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Speaker 1: title makes sense, because he was called this primarily due

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Speaker 1: to a couple of things, the murder of a guard UH,

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Speaker 1: the his membership and leadership of the Arian Brotherhood, a

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Speaker 1: white supremacist prison gang, and the length of his incarceration.

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Speaker 1: He was locked up for forty two years until he

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Speaker 1: died on May eleven, nineteen, and for thirty six of

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Speaker 1: those years he was in solitary confinement in the super

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Speaker 1: max UH. And this means that if you're in this

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Speaker 1: solitary confinement, you are by yourself for twenty three hours

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Speaker 1: a day, So for thirty six years. Yeah, one hour

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Speaker 1: in what you could call a yard, yep, and a

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Speaker 1: couple of rides. I think to Atlanta because he stayed

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Speaker 1: in the when it was a super max prison in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: He stayed there for a while in solitary. Then he

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Speaker 1: went to that one we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: d X Florence, a d X, Yeah, And he began

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Speaker 1: his criminal career with a series of armed robberies in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. He had a total of three to

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Speaker 1: four victims, and Folks, if you follow true crime, you

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Speaker 1: know that that pales in comparison to the amount of

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Speaker 1: murders committed by others in the exact same US prison system. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he was definitely a bastard, but he was probably never

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Speaker 1: the world's most dangerous prisoner. And honestly, calling him that

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Speaker 1: lends a sense of importance that we don't think he deserves.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make me wonder how much outside influence he

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Speaker 1: was able to have because he's in solitary confinement, right,

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Speaker 1: but surely he can make phone calls or something. And

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if he was ever able to influence

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Speaker 1: the actions of other, perhaps gang members that were outside

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Speaker 1: of the prison or in prison if he was allowed

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Speaker 1: to communicate. Yeah, that's one of the things that makes

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Speaker 1: make someone a dangerous prisoner, right. Uh and that's a

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Speaker 1: great question, Matt. So the thing is though, that after

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Speaker 1: he murdered, correction officer named Merle Klutz c l U

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Speaker 1: T T S in the entire system said, look, we

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Speaker 1: can't it give this guy the death penalty because he

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Speaker 1: he got solitary, got life. Essentially, he's going to die

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Speaker 1: in prison, but we can't kill him, so we're going

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Speaker 1: to make his life a living hell. That's a quote

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Speaker 1: from a book about Leavenworth. Uh. They weren't really afraid

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Speaker 1: of him, They simply despised him with good reason. But

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Speaker 1: so okay, so does he quote unquote deserve that title? Again?

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Speaker 1: We think it's media branding, But make no mistake, there

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Speaker 1: are monsters behind bars all across the world, and we

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Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves, how do we determine who the

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Speaker 1: most dangerous are? Is it simply the number of people killed, injured,

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Speaker 1: or assaulted by a single individual, or do we try

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Speaker 1: and guess at the potential harm that could occur if

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Speaker 1: those folks are walking free. That's what law enforcement agencies

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Speaker 1: tend to do. That's what they've struggled with when it

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Speaker 1: comes to sentencing terrorists suspects for example. Right, well, and

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Speaker 1: I think to understand and this distinction, Um, there are

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Speaker 1: so many factors that go into it. So I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's a good idea to explore kind of a shortlist

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Speaker 1: of several of the most dangerous prisoners instead of you know,

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Speaker 1: laser focusing in on just one. Because in the US,

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous prisoners are held in a place called

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Speaker 1: a d X florence. Um. A d X florence is

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Speaker 1: intended as a temporary kind of holding facility to teach

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Speaker 1: the most high risk prisoners kind of how to It's

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Speaker 1: weird to think, you know, because prison, in theory is

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Speaker 1: meant to acclimate folks back to society. But this is

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Speaker 1: like a prison meant to acclimate folks to regular prison

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Speaker 1: because they're not even built for that that, you know,

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Speaker 1: because the idea there is they would just upset the

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Speaker 1: whole order of things if they were introduced into you

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Speaker 1: know what they call in oz gen pop. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: they were, if they were in gen pop, if they

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Speaker 1: were in GP, then they would so okay us right,

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Speaker 1: the ideas people would die, uh, And the weird thing

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Speaker 1: about a d X is, even though it's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be as as you described it, in all a kind

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Speaker 1: of way point, a stopover, there are criminals there who don't,

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Speaker 1: who don't make it out and never will their long

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Speaker 1: time residents of the facility, because they have this potential

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Speaker 1: to inspire new criminals to direct crimes like you were

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Speaker 1: talking about, Matt, if they're allowed to communicate in any

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Speaker 1: way with people outside of the walls, right, and they're

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Speaker 1: they're outside communications are intensely monitored. You know, you could

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Speaker 1: say this this scary thing. You could say these individuals

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Speaker 1: that were about to discuss have an infectious evil. It's

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Speaker 1: a contagious thing, and that makes it almost sounds supernatural, right,

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Speaker 1: but it is incredibly dangerous, or at least that's the

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Speaker 1: rationale for isolating them. And again, you know, there's an know,

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Speaker 1: there's an entire uh discourse about how those individuals should

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Speaker 1: be treated or detained. Should they simply be executed? Right?

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Speaker 1: Should they be kept alive? The great expense to the

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Speaker 1: taxpayer is solitary confinement a cruel and unusual punishment, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's the interesting thing to here, is that one

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Speaker 1: would think typically the most egregious of crimes and and

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Speaker 1: and the folks who would be considered the most dangerous

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Speaker 1: would be executed. But there are oftentimes extenuating circumstances and

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Speaker 1: legal loopholes, etcetera that caused that to not be a thing.

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Speaker 1: Whatever your position is on the death penalty, it does happen.

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Speaker 1: It is legal in many parts of the world, including

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Speaker 1: the United States. Let's get into the curious case of

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Speaker 1: this first person we're going to discuss, because he fits

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Speaker 1: some of the things we're talking about, but he also

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Speaker 1: like breaks the mold a little bit because well, let's

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Speaker 1: just get into it. A man named Umar Abdul Mutalab.

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Speaker 1: This is a Nigerian man that you likely remember. We

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Speaker 1: talked about this on the show while back. This was

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Speaker 1: big news here in the US. UM. You may know

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Speaker 1: someone as the underwear bomber. That was a phrase that

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Speaker 1: was banded about on news all over the place. This

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Speaker 1: is a person who is supposedly connected to al Qaida.

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Speaker 1: I guess was connected to al Qaeda, But how deep

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Speaker 1: that connection was. I don't think I've ever been told

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Speaker 1: by any news outlet, UM, because that's probably information that's

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Speaker 1: being kept quiet. But he's currently serving four life sentences.

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Speaker 1: M M. Yeah, and nobody died, that's the thing, right,

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Speaker 1: So there's stuff that there's definitely stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: us to know about, perhaps the connections and and the

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Speaker 1: liability that having this person out in the world would cause.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously that this attempted bombing is enough reason enough,

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Speaker 1: But there does there there there does seem to be

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Speaker 1: information that we maybe don't have. But but he's the

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Speaker 1: human being that strapped on the explosives and got on

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Speaker 1: the plane and attempted to blow the plane up and

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Speaker 1: himself right, So to me, that means he's not at

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Speaker 1: all a mastermind. He is a tool, a utensil that

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Speaker 1: was being brandished by some some organization, likely al Qaeda.

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Speaker 1: So like, what why is he so dangerous though? Is

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Speaker 1: it just because they could use him again if you

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Speaker 1: ever got out right? Likely? Um So, So for the

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Speaker 1: time being, he is in the super maximum UH facility

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Speaker 1: at least partially because of those questions that we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: that kind of linger about the amount of support that

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Speaker 1: he had from a larger terrorist organization in the form

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Speaker 1: of al Qaeda. Um. While he was, as you said, Matt,

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Speaker 1: much more of a tool, a trigger man, if you will,

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Speaker 1: um would be suicide bomber. He was certainly not the

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Speaker 1: brain of the operation. Right, Yeah, he's thirty five as

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Speaker 1: we record this episode today. So he's a young man

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Speaker 1: whose life unfortunately is over, you know. And that's not

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Speaker 1: to you know, that's not to defend those actions at all.

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Speaker 1: It's just a waste of a life because he attempted

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Speaker 1: to murder two hundred and eighty nine people. And you

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Speaker 1: know this, there's this thing personally, I don't love it

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Speaker 1: when when the media gives these sorts of singular criminals nicknames,

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Speaker 1: because it leads to you know, it leads to various

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Speaker 1: production companies, producers I'm not going to name exploiting the

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Speaker 1: situation and doing so under the guys of helping somehow. Right,

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Speaker 1: the information needs to be out there, but we also

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Speaker 1: need to understand co modification of these criminals by giving

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Speaker 1: them a name like a nickname. Isn't an entirely ethical

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Speaker 1: thing to do. Ryan Murphy Zodiac, No, No, you didn't

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Speaker 1: do that name, Matt. You did a deep dive, kick

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Speaker 1: ass exploration of very important and still unsolved mystery. Well,

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Speaker 1: I certainly said throughout the show so he said he

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Speaker 1: said it with gusto and uh and the level of headedness. Also,

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Speaker 1: no one knows that name. We know the underwear bomber's name.

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Speaker 1: No one knows who the Zodiac killer was. So that's

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Speaker 1: a different case you think you did. And I'm specifically

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Speaker 1: also referring to this very divisive Jeffrey Dahmer series has

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Speaker 1: really got the Internet going nuts. And you know, my kid,

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Speaker 1: who's thirteen, says a lot of her peers quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: who she doesn't particularly care for in middle school, are

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Speaker 1: in fact romanticizing this guy because of this American horror

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Speaker 1: story treatment of his life. And there is almost a

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Speaker 1: sense of creating empathy for this person through this dramatization.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the producers claim, oh no, it's giving

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Speaker 1: voice to the victims, and you know, we're doing it

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Speaker 1: through the perspective of the victims. But in many cases,

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Speaker 1: when you put kind of a star like this, whatever

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Speaker 1: the kid's name is, Um who plays him. He's not

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Speaker 1: a kid, but you know I'm talking about he's in

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Speaker 1: all the American Kevin Peters, you know, it does kind

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Speaker 1: of put him in the focus. And you know, also

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Speaker 1: apparently there's a real Um affection for Patrick Bateman, you

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Speaker 1: know in American Psycho by a lot of these kids

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Speaker 1: in middle school, which is weird to me, um because

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Speaker 1: American horror story and that whole kind of salacious treatment

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Speaker 1: of horrific you know, crimes and such UH is something

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Speaker 1: that is kind of geared towards that age set, even

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Speaker 1: if they wouldn't come out and say it, well, there's

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's that moribund fascination with the misfortune of others,

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Speaker 1: you know, UH, and and the idea, the folklore that

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Speaker 1: surrounds UH criminals in the United States is an old

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Speaker 1: part of the culture. I mean, it's weird to say

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Speaker 1: old part of the culture for such a young country.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Dillinger was deified, right, Bonnie and Clyde

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Speaker 1: were romanticized. This is something that happens in the United States.

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Speaker 1: So this this guy, abdul Matalab is not gonna is

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Speaker 1: not gonna see a day outside of jail for the

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Speaker 1: rest of his life or prison, excuse me. And it's

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Speaker 1: because of those connections. If you look at the story,

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Speaker 1: you'll see that eyewitness reports name folks who assisted in

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Speaker 1: his attempted attack and then just faded off. The radar

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Speaker 1: and are possibly quite possibly still out there active somehow.

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Speaker 1: And if you are in counter terrorism or law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: that's a haunting thing, right, because those guys are not

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Speaker 1: the type of people to say, oh, it didn't work out,

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Speaker 1: I guess now I'll take up photography or dressage or something.

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Speaker 1: Uh that's the one with the horses, right, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: the one with the horses. Step daintily. Yeah, they're not

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Speaker 1: getting into that. They've already decided what they want to do,

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Speaker 1: and that's a so that connection. We see that with

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Speaker 1: another example, James Marcello, the purported head of the Chicago outfit,

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Speaker 1: which is uh mafia in Chicago. This guy participated in

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Speaker 1: the murders of at least eighteen people and a lot

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Speaker 1: of classic mob stuff, extortion and bribery. He's in there.

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Speaker 1: Are you talking about Jimmy, Jimmy de Man Marcelo or

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Speaker 1: Little Jimmy. That's antis Well, it's interesting because we're kind

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Speaker 1: of talking about categories here. We've got your terrorists, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've got your your serial killer types. We've got your

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Speaker 1: sort of low level not low level, but maybe more

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Speaker 1: lone wolf kind of aggravated cereal assaulters and criminals that

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Speaker 1: you know are just bad folks. Then you have your

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Speaker 1: organized crime connected folks. Yet there are categories, So I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you point that out and all because for each

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Speaker 1: of these people were naming, there are minimum well for

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Speaker 1: most of them, there are minimum dozens of other examples

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Speaker 1: that are quite similar. So James Marcello old school Chicago Mafia.

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Speaker 1: Weirdly enough, like even though he was described often by

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Speaker 1: law enforcement as the mob boss of the area, UH

409
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Speaker 1: insiders and some other folks would later go on to

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Speaker 1: paint him as a figurehead and they would say, look,

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Speaker 1: he was the face, but the day to day operations

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Speaker 1: were run by other people. It also begs the question of, like,

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Speaker 1: are these incarcerations sort of fall guy situations where it's

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Speaker 1: taking it's sort of like, see, we did a thing,

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Speaker 1: we we we were fixing it. You know, we're we're

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Speaker 1: putting away the bad guys, but they're honestly just the

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Speaker 1: bad guys that were the lowest hanging fruit that they

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Speaker 1: can then use as a symbolic act of a bigger,

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Speaker 1: you know, solution that maybe isn't actually being implemented, right,

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Speaker 1: almost like paying tribute to this system. Oh no, you

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Speaker 1: got our boss. I guess we have to take ups

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Speaker 1: so right to go to for reformed criminals. You heard

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Speaker 1: it here. Uh, but this is the thing. So if

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Speaker 1: you um, if you follow news about organized crime, then

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Speaker 1: you'll recognize Marcello as one of the top people convicted

426
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: in this huge racketeering case in two thousand seven, The

427
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: Family Secrets, it's called. Two years later, he gets sentenced

428
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: to the Long Ride life in prison, right, so you

429
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: know he's at the point where he might ride the

430
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: Lightning or take the Long Ride, and they sent him

431
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: to death the long Way, and it's Ride the Lightning

432
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: the like electric chair or is that it's even like

433
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: as a metallic album called Ride the Lightning, And I

434
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: don't know if it was on the cover of the album.

435
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: There was definitely a very popular T shirt where it

436
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: was like a skeleton kind of in an electric chair,

437
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, being zapped. For some reason, I had it

438
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: associated with drug use. I don't know why. That's the

439
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: Dragon Chase, the Dragon Ride the Lightning. I made up

440
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: Take the Long Ride because it is brutal. It's not

441
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: as brutal in Japan. In Japan, I think we talked

442
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: about this in the past. When you get a death sentence.

443
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: They don't tell you when you're going to die. You

444
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: were just imprisoned, and then once at some point, maybe

445
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: a few maybe a few years, maybe a decade, they

446
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,719
Speaker 1: come for you and they hang you. That's the Green Mile, right, No, No,

447
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: was the Green Mile the walk to the to the

448
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: to the lights out situation? Oh? Yeah, yeah, the yeah,

449
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: the Green Mile was in Stephen King's novel That was

450
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: the walk. Uh. And then Tom Waits has a song

451
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: called Walking Spanish, which is about the same thing. And this. Okay,

452
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: so this guy, like we said, contagious, right, the connections.

453
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: He's considered dangerous because he's deep with organized crime. He's

454
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: not a lone wolf. Right. If he gets out, there's

455
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: serious concern that he would be able to sow some

456
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: more chaos. Interestingly enough, he may not be imprisoned for

457
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: the long ride. Two years ago he filed a petition

458
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: in federal court to have that life sentence tossed out

459
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: due to his age. He probably will die in prison.

460
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: But it was just to get resentenced, right, yeah, yeah,

461
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: it wasn't. It wasn't let me out. And here will

462
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: pause for a word from our sponsor and return with

463
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: some more examples of incredibly dangerous people in prison, and

464
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: the stories just get more complicated by the way we've returned. Uh,

465
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: this is a this example is a little bit similar

466
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: to it has commonalities at least with Marcello, but it's

467
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: uh different, It's much more complicated. We're talking about the

468
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: former leader of the Gangster Disciples, Larry Hoover. You may

469
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: recognize him from uh, some songs by your favorite artist.

470
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: You may recognize him from various documentaries, also various controversies. Currently,

471
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: Hoover is serving six life sentences and his criminal career, well,

472
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: his entire life may well be its own episode. He's

473
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: considered actively dangerous because he fooled the system. Actually this

474
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: is true, and his crimes did not stop when he

475
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: was incarcerated. He was doing what you were describing, Matt.

476
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: He's he's a quintessential example of touching the outside and

477
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: having power while being physically, uh physically bounded in the system.

478
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: He directed the Disciples and grew them from prison all

479
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: the way through the nineteen nineties. But there are a

480
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: lot of caveats along the way. I think, oh yeah,

481
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: I mean, well, one of the biggest ones is that

482
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: if if you listen to Hoover himself. He says, hey,

483
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't run anything with the

484
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: Disciples anymore. Come on, I'm not the leader, which I guess.

485
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: If you believe him, that's great, But if you don't,

486
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: then he could potentially to be doing it again. And

487
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that he's considered too dangerous

488
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: to be allowed with any kind of freedom, even though

489
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: he's he's well, he's well old, right, seventy and he's

490
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: in his seventies. He's well old in it and yeah,

491
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: it turns seventy two at the end of this November.

492
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: And because of his ability to recruit new members during

493
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: his sense and incarceration, his opportunities to keep in touch

494
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: with people on the outside UH, and his promotion UH

495
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: for for a while of of non violence and community service,

496
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: he started being called King Larry, and he became arguably

497
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: more powerful in prison than ever he was as a freeman.

498
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: But it turned out, at least from the perspective of

499
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies, that when he changed Gangster Disciples to

500
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: growth and development and started doing a lot of community

501
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: work or directing a lot of it, law enforcement said

502
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: it was a front and he actually fooled them by

503
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: growing a criminal enterprise under the guise of public reform,

504
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: kind of like Gus Freeing making a fast food empire. Yeah,

505
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: you could kind of consider this a fool me once

506
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: type situation um, with prosecutors and law enforcement convinced that

507
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: he's going to continue to recruit and grow organized crime

508
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: rings if he's released, despite you know, him seemingly coming

509
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: clean and changing his ways early stating that he has yes, yes, yes,

510
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: And it really is a very divisive issue and a

511
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 1: conversation within you know, I mean the framework of all

512
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: of this stuff surrounds what is the prison system? How

513
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: does it function? Uh? Is it broken? You know, is

514
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: it in need of reform? Um? At the very least, yes,

515
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: it does in need of reform. But it's a difficult

516
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: thing to do because of so much infrastructure and place

517
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: and legacy policies and just the way these facilities are run. Uh,

518
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: there's a critical mass at play that is hard to

519
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: kind of stop or reverse of course. Correct. Yeah. And

520
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: in our conversation we had off Air along with our

521
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: their pal Paul Mission Control. Uh, you know, it brought

522
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: up the fact that a perfect society is one that

523
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: does not have prisons, does not have chains, you know,

524
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 1: And that's why it's important for us to open up

525
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: when we talked about this stuff by saying, yeah, in

526
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: many many ways, prison systems are broken. You know. It's

527
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 1: it's true, and it's undeniable. And anybody who says otherwise, UM,

528
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: I just can't agree with him. So but I, well,

529
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,479
Speaker 1: then don't I kind of say otherwise? And maybe I'm wrong?

530
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: And that's what I want to have a bigger conversation

531
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: with you guys about the I think about the that

532
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: show La Monstra and Matt Graves of the host that

533
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: we talked to, and that particular case where, yeah, Mark

534
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: de trou was in prison for assaulting women and capturing

535
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: them and holding them and essentially imprisoning them and assaulting them.

536
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 1: He went to prison for that for a little while,

537
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: and then they let him out because he had he

538
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: was on his good behavior, and then he did the

539
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: exact same thing to other women and killed them. I

540
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: think I think his I think his master's let him out, honestly, Um,

541
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: but ultimately, what do you do with him if you

542
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: don't have chains? I see what you're saying, Yeah, but

543
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: that to that I would respond, a perfect society is

544
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: also one that does not have those people, so that,

545
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, like the old argument of utopia, right, utopia,

546
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: the definition of utopia is a perfect thing comma that

547
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: does not exist. And typically when we see topias in

548
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,959
Speaker 1: like you know, science fiction, usually they're kind of dystopian

549
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: utopias that's involved drugging the population in some way or

550
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: having people be complacent like in Brave New World or

551
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: what have you, um, or just controlling people's ideas, you know,

552
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: and uh and kind of you know, having people be

553
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: these docile chess pieces you know of the state. And

554
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: when you have autonomy and when you have free will, um,

555
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: you're gonna have some bad apples. You know that that

556
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: shouldn't necessarily mean well, shouldn't have free will. That's very

557
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: loaded in and of itself. And in another conversation, entirely

558
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: like in Clockwork Orange, you know, you have this whole

559
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 1: scenario where the bad actor that you know, Alex de

560
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 1: Large is put into this program that programs him, deprograms

561
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: him from behaving badly, but then it also essentially robs

562
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: him of his free will and makes him this kind

563
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: of pathetic um you know, pawn um that that that

564
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 1: doesn't have control over his own autonomy at all, which

565
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: is basically almost worse than being imprisoned. I guess, I

566
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: don't know. It's it's a different kind of prison, prison

567
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: of the mind. And and I love the Kuber adaptation,

568
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: but I like, if you want the full story, read

569
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: the book because last chapter, yeah, the chapter that was missing.

570
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: It's it's now in the American editions as well. Finally,

571
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: but but yeah, this is this is an ongoing conversation.

572
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: I'd love to recommend if anybody likes TED talks. Sometimes

573
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: they're a little bit utopian, to be honest, but do

574
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: check out a great TED talk, What a World Without

575
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: Prisons Could look Like by Diana Van Buren. And I

576
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: think it addresses a lot of the points we're talking

577
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: about now well. And Larry Hoover is a great example

578
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 1: of everything we're talking Yeah, yeah, yeah, because some some

579
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: ordinary citizens, particularly in Chicago, Illinois, see Hoover as an

580
00:38:54,719 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: inspiration because of his promotion and community service, empowerment, emphasize education,

581
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: discouraging violence, you know, from like inter gang warfare and

582
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: so on. Uh, his followers don't always align with those values,

583
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: but people still insist, you know, his heart is in

584
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: the right place, and that's why you hear people, Um,

585
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: that's why you hear people pushing for his release. As

586
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, earlier this year, in July, he

587
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: sent a letter to a federal judge asking for reduction

588
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: on his life sentence, saying, Hey, I have changed, I

589
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: have grown. Uh. He made the same request last year,

590
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: you know. So this this evolution is also another episode

591
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: of its own. But we can't end. We're talking about

592
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: folks are regarded as dangerous. One person we have to

593
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: end on is Theodore Ted Kaczynski, former math professor, domestic terrorist.

594
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: His name is familiar to and his nickname is familiar

595
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: to followers a true crime and conspiracy alike. He was

596
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: a rec loose for a long time. He sent mail

597
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 1: bombs to university researchers for decades. And essentially it's because

598
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: if you read his manifesto, he's very concerned about advancements

599
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 1: and science. The problem with this guy isn't that he's

600
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: also brilliant. We're talking super villain level smart. The FBI

601
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: admits as like they admit it when they talk about him. Yeah,

602
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: here's a quote that comes from FBI dot gov website

603
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: you should pruse if you want to. It's fun. It's

604
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: like testing limits. Are they gonna track me? What if

605
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,959
Speaker 1: I go on their own website? Let's find out here

606
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: we go. Quote. How do you catch a twisted genius

607
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 1: who aspires to be the perfect anonymous killer, who builds

608
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: untraceable bombs and delivers them to random targets, who leaves

609
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: false clues to throw off authorities, who lives like a

610
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: rec loose in the mountains of Montana and tells the

611
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: no One of his secret crimes. That's a real great

612
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: hypothetical question there. Did they go on to answer it?

613
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: They do. No, that's just that's the whole thing. They

614
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 1: gave up because they couldn't answer it. They did, they did,

615
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: They did eventually answer it. They go into detail about

616
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: how they cooperated with other agencies for the better part

617
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: of twenty years to track down this person that they

618
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: called the Union bomber short for University bomber, it's a portmanteau.

619
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 1: And they only caught him when they did something very extraordinary.

620
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 1: He kind of he led to his own arrest because

621
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 1: he saw himself as an agent of ideology, which will

622
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: be important in Part two of this series. He sent

623
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: a thirty five thousand word essay explaining what he saw

624
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 1: as his motives and what he saw as, uh, all

625
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,439
Speaker 1: the wrongs of modern society. The FBI did something they

626
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: don't usually do. And you know this if you have

627
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: ever been in the world a true crime. They published

628
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: this manifesto and this because they were at a loss

629
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: and this manifesto, like they may have never caught him

630
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: if he hadn't said this thing and they hadn't published it,

631
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: because it led to Kazynski's brother seeing it and saying,

632
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: I think you should look at my sibling for this.

633
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: His writing style is similar. Here are some other examples

634
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: of things that he has written. And and then the

635
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: brother cooperated to try to help find this guy. April third,

636
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: they arrest him. They go through his cabin where he's

637
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: living in a a pretty primitive life except for you know,

638
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: bomb making technology. Yeah, I mean it's interesting too. This

639
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 1: is really kind of the fodder for serial killer lair

640
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: kind of vibes, you know, with all of the Seven

641
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: also in you know the New Batman, the Batman with

642
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: the Riddler, uh, tiny handwritten you know the text in journals,

643
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: thousands of journals, handwritten pages um. That included things like,

644
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, bomb making components and all of that, and

645
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: descriptions of crimes and also a live bomb ready to

646
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: be put in the post. And then of course the

647
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole about his psychologue, his participation in psychological

648
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: studies in the second year at Harvard that goes pretty deep.

649
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: Do check that out. He was involved in a experiment

650
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: led by a Harvard psychologist called Henry Murray, and this

651
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: was described as purposely brutalizing the participants. And this, you know,

652
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: you can see a lot of people linking this to

653
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: government funded experiments with mind control, a similar similar that's

654
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: the idea, because the CIA was active in that for

655
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: a while. And check out Operation Midnight Climax um you

656
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: hosted by our own Noel Brown for more information on

657
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: some aspects of that. I don't think it gets the

658
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: Kazynski study, but but it's mentioned in passing. But yeah, yeah,

659
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: but it's definitely not the crux of it. But we

660
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: do know that these kinds of things did take place,

661
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: and that the CIA operated fast and loose, you know,

662
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,919
Speaker 1: with people's lives. Absolutely no question about that. Yeah. And

663
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: also just to point something out, in both Russia and

664
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: the United States and the Soviet Union and the United States.

665
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: I should say, uh, they figure it out collectively that

666
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: the easiest way to assassinate someone and make it look

667
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: just enough like an accident is to say they fell

668
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: from a window. The finisht rate. Yes, God, I love

669
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: this language. You know, No one finish strates. They just

670
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: definish strate. Uh so this so this thing, what we're

671
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: saying is there's a lot to Kacynski. And when they

672
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: came in, just as you describe, No, they find this

673
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: thing that looks like the layer of someone who is

674
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: mentally not well. Forty thousand handwritten journal pages documenting philosophy,

675
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: documenting bomb making experiments in progress, descriptions of UNI bomber crimes.

676
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: Also a bunch of like random bomb components laying around,

677
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: some of which, by the way, it would just look

678
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 1: like household junk if you didn't know how to put

679
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: it together. This is sort of um anarchist cookbook stuff, right,

680
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: And I would recommend reading that, reading that tone or

681
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: a version of it if you get access. You might

682
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 1: have to, uh find the right counterculture in the basement

683
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: of the right bookstore. Right, that's right, vintage books, Go

684
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: check them. Out they're in. I guess shamblely maybe Brooke

685
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: caven whatever you can figure out. In Atlanta. Uh, guys,

686
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: you know what, they didn't mention the authorities when they

687
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 1: rated that old cabin. They didn't mention all the zodiac

688
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: ciphers that they found in there. I'm just joking. I'm

689
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: just you might not be joking because they still haven't

690
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: mentioned it. So Uh. They also importantly found one live

691
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: bomb packed and ready to go in the post. He

692
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: doesn't put up you know, he doesn't say he's changed,

693
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: he doesn't say um any kind of mitigated stuff. He

694
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,399
Speaker 1: pleads guilty in January, and then fast forward last year,

695
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: he leaves a d X. He's transferred to the Federal

696
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: Medical Center in North Carolina. Uh. The officials involved did

697
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: not disclose why he was transferred to a to a

698
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: primarily medical facility there, but in a letter to a

699
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: pinpal again all the communications are closely monitored unlista with lawyers,

700
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: he indicated he's suffering from terminal cancer. So if you

701
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: are the authorities, there are a couple ways to look

702
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: at this. You could say compassionate release would let him

703
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: die of freeman or with some validity you could argue

704
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: he has even less to lose. And this is the

705
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: same facility we talked about earlier in the episode that

706
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: has sort of meant to acclimate the most dangerous and

707
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: unhinged prisoners too regular you know, prison population UM and

708
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: Paul Mission Control off air pointed out that this facility

709
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 1: a d X and Florence has been the subject of

710
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: of many controversial acts and accusations UM, including you know,

711
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: the proliferation of of of suicides there. Uh, and then

712
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: the idea that they aren't actually identifying truly mentally ill

713
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 1: um inmates or patients and treating them appropriately. So again

714
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: there there comes that breakdown in how the prison system

715
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: operates and how these folks are treated. Um, is it humane?

716
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: You know? Is this more in the vein of of

717
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 1: of a black site than than we might like to admit,

718
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? I mean, you know, I'm

719
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: I'm being hyperbolic a little bit there, but I don't

720
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: think so. It's a place to put people that whatever

721
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: that authority structure is believes are too dangerous to be

722
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: you know, even walking around living in a certain situation

723
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: with other inmates. It's yeah, well too to the point

724
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: to about um obscene treatment that you're talking about. No,

725
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: people who did not successfully take their own lives to

726
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: d d X were often punished for attempting to do so,

727
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: which is not quite the right approach, to say the

728
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: very least. And there have been a lot of lawsuits

729
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: regarding what we're describing about about mental health. And this

730
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: This leads us to one of the most disturbing things

731
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,959
Speaker 1: about these conversations. A lot of a lot of these

732
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: conversations hinge on asking the right question. Right when we

733
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: ask who are the world's most dangerous prisoners or who

734
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: are the most dangerous prisoners in the US, we have

735
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: to ask why? Right? What? What creates this? Because again,

736
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: nothing exists in a vacuum, you know, and it like,

737
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: let's say someone's young, they do something violently stupid, like

738
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: they try to rob someone because they want some extract cash, right,

739
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: or they want to get initiated into some sort of

740
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: social group, and they get caught, they get convicted, they

741
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: go to prison for several years unless their parents are

742
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 1: well connected. I hate to phrase it that way, but

743
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: that is often the reality. You know, That's not an opinion.

744
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: Access to high high level, high quality UM lawyers and

745
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 1: legal assistance makes all the difference. Um, we know how

746
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: people can get out of things or get get things

747
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: pled down, uh, charges reduced, etcetera. Even something as simple

748
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: as traffic cord you know, if you have a good

749
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: enough lawyer. So I mean money and uh and privilege

750
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: certainly does enter into it, There's no question about it. Um.

751
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,919
Speaker 1: But but but to your chicken and egg question, Ben,

752
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: this really does lead to a larger question of is

753
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: that time incarcerated actually rehabilitative or is it just reinforcing um,

754
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: the bad habits that someone already has and preparing them

755
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: to just kind of learn how to operate a little

756
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: more under the radar once they get out, and just

757
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: to smarten up and learn lessons you know, by example

758
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: in prison from other you know, craftier criminals or what

759
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: have you, right, or get deeper because their forced to

760
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, their kid in prison and suddenly they're forced

761
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: to group up with someone to posse you up to survive, right,

762
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: which requires them to commit uh increasingly criminal acts. It

763
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: makes it more likely that there will be restive recidivism,

764
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: which is returning to prison in the future. And not

765
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: not to mention, I mean those connections made in prison

766
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: connect into the outside world, you know. I mean you

767
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: get leagued up with a certain group in prison and

768
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: they take care of you in prison. That's going to

769
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: translate to once you get out and if your life

770
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: is over in terms of being in the system. Now, Um,

771
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: you can either make a choice to become like a

772
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: normy and just work the only type of job that

773
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: you can even get, which is going to be low level,

774
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: low paying, or are you going to join a criminal

775
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: enterprise that's going to allow you to make more money

776
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: by continuing to commit criminal acts and do it smarter

777
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: with the help of others in the outside world that

778
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: you got leaked up with in prison. Yeah, there's this. Uh.

779
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: This reminds me of a of a great freestyle from

780
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: Fire in the Booth by Uh by a guy named Simba,

781
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 1: and the line that particularly stood out to me talks

782
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: about the again the intergenerational issues with who goes to

783
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: prison and who gets you know, probation or who gets

784
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: pre trial intervention in this country, and the line is

785
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: something like, uh, a white man gets slapped on the

786
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: wrist and gets a part and that's what happens when

787
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: your father went to college with your honor, you know,

788
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 1: like that's I'm just saying because it's it's a really

789
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 1: well written line, but speaking the truth. And if you're

790
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: if you're a fan of hip hop, do you check

791
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: out Simba. But as you're doing that, stay tuned for

792
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: part two of this continuing series. There is one more

793
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: aspect of this story. There's a curve ball that we're

794
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: throwing at the very end. Speaking of asking the right questions,

795
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: how do you define dangerous? In governments around the world,

796
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: the most dangerous prisoners are not considered so because of

797
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: their violent acts, but because of their ideas. So stay

798
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 1: tuned for the World's Most Dangerous Prisoners Part two, Politics

799
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: and Power. Yeah, but what you guys, what about remorse?

800
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 1: Like there's there are killers out there that shows zero

801
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: remorse for killing other human beings. Like I mean, I mean,

802
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: we were talking about organized crime, We're talking about problems

803
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: with economic inequality that lead to that kind that kind

804
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: of connection that y'all are mentioning. But I think that radar. Yeah, Like,

805
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 1: what what do you do with that? I mean, I

806
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: think we got I don't think it's as simple as

807
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: one blanket answer, right, Like, what do you do with

808
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: somebody like that or prisons good or our prisons bad.

809
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: It's it's it's so much more complicated. Yeah, well back

810
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: to chicken and egg. It's a nature nurture thing too,

811
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: where it's like if you're predisposed, you know, psychologically to

812
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: violent acts, which we know is a thing. You know,

813
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: there are certain types of brain chemistry or or or

814
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 1: issues you know, malformations or what have you uh in

815
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: people's psychology that can predispose them to the stuff, and

816
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 1: then it's further enhanced or exacerbated by nurture or lack thereof,

817
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: or being in a situation where it is like reinforced

818
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: by either a parent or you know, lack of attention

819
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: from a parent, or falling in with the wrong or

820
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: right you know, perfect storm kind of crowd. Um. So,

821
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: again to to your point earlier than about utopia or

822
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: to the perfect society has when without prisons, you can't

823
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,439
Speaker 1: fix people's brain chemistry. There's there's nothing, you know, short

824
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: of again dosing the water and just having people drugged

825
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: into complacency. There's nothing we can do to to make

826
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: sure that people aren't born withinnate deficiencies in the in

827
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: them that caused them to to be this way. Let

828
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: me add one more thing here, because this is let's

829
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: go macro right. Uh. This is something a lot of

830
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: people don't consider. If you have made it through this

831
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: episode and you're still like, gosh, I wish I was

832
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: more depressed. The human brain. If you're a human and

833
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 1: you're listening to this, the human brain is not evolved.

834
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 1: Two function in the societies that human civilization has created.

835
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, there were four billion people on

836
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: the planet. As of November, there are eight billion. It

837
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 1: is doubled right, humanity. Whatever you think about good or

838
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: bad apples, and obviously the worst apples are red delicious apples.

839
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,240
Speaker 1: I said it. They're just not popping whatever you think

840
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: there are. There are hard limits to the number of

841
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: people that your brain can consider people. That is why

842
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,439
Speaker 1: those in power commit such atrocities and sleep us fine

843
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: at night. Uh. And the reason that I say utopian,

844
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: the reason I say like a perfect society is one

845
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 1: without prisons, is because a perfect society doesn't exist. I mean,

846
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: what are you gonna say North Sentinel Island is a

847
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: perfect society. It's probably not. There are probably some people

848
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: there who are just jerks, you know, real pills. Uh,

849
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't think any of us know

850
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: the answers, but I think all three of us are

851
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: bringing up good points, and we'd love for you to

852
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: be a part of this conversation. Yeah, I think we

853
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: would love to hear from listeners, like, especially if you

854
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: if you hold a hard line belief one way or

855
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: the other, prisons are absolutely necessary. We need them and

856
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: this is what we do with people who are dangerous

857
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: or and I didn't I didn't say they're not necessary.

858
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: I said a perfect society wouldn't happen. I just mean

859
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: from listener, like, if you're listening and you hold that

860
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 1: belief right, prisons are good, or if you hold the

861
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: if all prisons should be like, get rid of them.

862
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: We don't need them anymore. I'd love to know, like,

863
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 1: what are solutions to deal with people that collectively we've

864
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: decided this person is dangerous? Um? Just what what is

865
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: your solution? Restorative justice? Is it, well, you know, is

866
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: it some sort of almost sci fi level thing the

867
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: punishment fits the crime. Like if you are a McVey

868
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: and you bomb, you bomb the location, are you then

869
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: sentenced to a thing where you just build? Though? Like

870
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: if you for instance, if you bomb, say an abortion clinic,

871
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: instead of being put in prison, should be put on

872
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: a work detail where you just build preventative care clinics

873
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. It's that old thing

874
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: about like, oh, your your parents caught you smoking a cigarettes,

875
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: so they put you in the closet and make you,

876
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: hope smoke a whole pack of cigarettes, which is child abuse,

877
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: by the way. But you've heard that old, that old chestnut, right,

878
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean I have not. Okay, well, man, I don't

879
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: know that I ever heard anybody having this happen to them,

880
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: but it does seem like an urban legend, the kind

881
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 1: of trope, you know. So as you can tell, this

882
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: is one of those explorations where the three of us

883
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: end up taking the conversation off air. We're probably this

884
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: is probably gonna be one of the things we talked

885
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: about when we hang out in person as soon as

886
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: one of us brings it up, because I think this,

887
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: this dilemma, this Gordian not stays with us, and it

888
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: probably will stay with you folks. So please, as Matt said,

889
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: reach out to us, let us know your thoughts, let

890
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: us know what your what your stances. As you said, man,

891
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: particularly if you have a strong one. We want to

892
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: hear it. We're not saying that we have the answers.

893
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: We're not telling anybody what to think, but this is

894
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: and this is just one part of a larger, deeper

895
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: dive in the meantime, help us out if you have

896
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: the answer, just like we said with a mass shooting deaths,

897
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: if you have the answer, right to us, let us

898
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: know if you're convinced you have the answer. We want

899
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: to be easy to find online. We do want that,

900
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: and I think we mainly get there. You can find

901
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: us at Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube Conspiracy

902
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: Stuff Show on Instagram. Yes, we have a phone number.

903
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: It is one eight three three st d w y

904
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: t K. It's a voicemail system. Leave your name and

905
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 1: a message. You've got three minutes. Say whatever you'd like.

906
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: Please just make sure to include whether or not we

907
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: can use your name and voice on the air. If

908
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: you don't like voice messages, you don't like phones like that,

909
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: why not instead send us a good old fashioned email.

910
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they

911
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: Don't Want You to Know is a production of I

912
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit

913
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you

914
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.