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Speaker 1: Body bats with Joseph's Gotten More. I've always been fascinated

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Speaker 1: by the idea of alchemy. This goes back, you know,

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Speaker 1: several centuries, not with me, I'm not quite that old,

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Speaker 1: but it does go back in time to a period

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Speaker 1: when people thought that they could take literal lead and

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Speaker 1: transform it into gold. You know, Isaac Newton was actually

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Speaker 1: dabbling in alchemy for years and years. It seems like

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Speaker 1: a real shortcut, doesn't it That it has all of

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Speaker 1: the answers. It can kind of satiate that desire to

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Speaker 1: be wealthy, to have something that no one else has,

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Speaker 1: to make you wealthy beyond your craziest dreams. But you know,

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Speaker 1: in forensic science we have a coin of the realm

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Speaker 1: as well. Our coin of the realm is not gold,

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Speaker 1: though it does help with funding. What we have, though,

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Speaker 1: is information, and if we can glean information that's going

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Speaker 1: to point us to a perpetrator, all the better. Today

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a man, a man who

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Speaker 1: spent decades in one of the worst prisons in the

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Speaker 1: United States because people for a long long time believed

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Speaker 1: that bite mark evidence was valid. Bite mark evidence, as

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Speaker 1: it turns out, is our lead into gold. In the

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Speaker 1: world of forensics. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

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Speaker 1: Bodybacks Dave. So many times my grandmother left me coins

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Speaker 1: many years ago when you passed, and I've got them

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Speaker 1: in a safety deposit box now and I value them,

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Speaker 1: and I think that probably what I have is not

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Speaker 1: valuable at all. You know, silver dollars, you know, from

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Speaker 1: the early from the nineteen twenties. I've always thought that,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe someday I could take those and convert

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Speaker 1: that into into great wealth. Maybe not great wealth, but

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Speaker 1: at least, you know, pay the mortgage for a couple

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Speaker 1: of months. Maybe, But I don't think it really has

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Speaker 1: any value other than the fact that, you know, my

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Speaker 1: granny gave them to me. Can you imagine that your

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Speaker 1: life is on the line, the most precious thing that

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Speaker 1: you possess, and suddenly that lie for the life that

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Speaker 1: you plan to have is ripped away from you, That

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Speaker 1: everything that all of the future that you had laid

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Speaker 1: out in front of you, all the dreams and everything

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Speaker 1: is like a thief in the nightman just came and

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Speaker 1: stole it from you. Can you imagine how horrible it is?

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Speaker 2: This story is the reason and the only reason I'm

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Speaker 2: anti death penalty. It really is, because I mean it

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Speaker 2: is the only reason is because I don't trust other

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Speaker 2: people to be honest. And the dishonesty that is still

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Speaker 2: plaguing Jimmy Duncan right now in Louisiana goes beyond anything

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Speaker 2: I can imagine, because you know, Jimmy Duncan spends twenty

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Speaker 2: seven years on death row for a crime that never

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Speaker 2: occurred because an expert said there was a bite mark

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Speaker 2: evidence it was perfect, you know, And it's like I

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Speaker 2: went back and I had to reread this, Joe, because

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Speaker 2: I was looking at how the mark evidence came to

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Speaker 2: be and how the mark was made, and then how

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Speaker 2: it was matched up. It was fabricated. It was fabricated evidence,

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Speaker 2: and it led to this man being on death row.

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Speaker 1: Death row.

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Speaker 2: Regular death row inmates are not in general population. They

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying that prison should be changra law.

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Speaker 2: You know, it is supposed to be prison, But think

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Speaker 2: about this for a minute. You know, you're on death

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Speaker 2: row for twenty seven years for a not only you

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Speaker 2: didn't commit a crime that didn't happen. Yeah, it's one

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Speaker 2: thing to go to jail for twenty years that's bad enough,

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Speaker 2: you know, for a crime you didn't commit. I get that.

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Speaker 2: I will tell you this story shows you how bad

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Speaker 2: human beings can be. That's all I can think of.

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Speaker 2: Because bless his heart, I'm not saying, Jimmy duncan you

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Speaker 2: know hides his wings, you know, because they scratched the

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Speaker 2: back of his you know, it's I love that term.

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Speaker 2: I just don't know the guy. I just know that

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Speaker 2: he's twenty seven years in prison for not just a

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Speaker 2: crime he didn't commit, a crime that didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and and to make if it couldn't get any

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Speaker 1: more horrific, the crime that he's accused of. Oh my, lord, Dave,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about Lord, I hate to say this. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about a homicide involving a baby and a sexual

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Speaker 1: assault yep, on the said baby as well. That that's

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Speaker 1: that's what you know. He's he's been accused of and

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Speaker 1: has been convicted of, and now his life is gone.

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Speaker 1: You talked about he's not in jin pop he if

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Speaker 1: he's if he's on death row, you know, that's a

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Speaker 1: life of total isolation anyway. You know, you're you're sequestered.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that Usually it's usually twenty three hours in a

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Speaker 2: cell by yourself, right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is. And then you know you hear

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Speaker 1: the the clanking all the time, and that's a real

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Speaker 1: thing you hear. You hear that portrayed in movies. I've

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Speaker 1: work cases, you know, in prisons and whatnot, and you

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Speaker 1: it's amazing when you're you know, you're on the inside

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Speaker 1: like that, and you're in that area that you know

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Speaker 1: that I hate call it a residential area. But in

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Speaker 1: those pods and everything echoes. You can hear bathroom sounds,

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Speaker 1: you can hear people screaming, you can hear people crying.

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Speaker 1: And everything is either a concrete or a metallic surface.

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Speaker 1: So if you in it's cavernous. If you drop something,

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Speaker 1: even that echoes in your ears. Can you imagine what

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Speaker 1: it's like to step outside of a prison and breathe

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Speaker 1: free for the first time and you don't, you don't

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Speaker 1: hear those sounds? Are being able to sleep through the night,

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Speaker 1: you know, And it's not you know, you don't have

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Speaker 1: the the cacophony of all of that ringing in your mind.

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Speaker 1: Not to mention, I've got relatives on the outside that

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Speaker 1: are getting older. Oh yeah, I may never see them again. Period.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to see them as a freeman. There's

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Speaker 1: a chance they're going to pass away before I ever

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Speaker 1: get to wrap my arms around them again. I'm never

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Speaker 1: We're just coming off Thanksgiving. I'll never sit at a

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving table again.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Joe, there's also going to be in

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Speaker 2: the back of your head that, yes, I know they

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Speaker 2: love me, but I've been convicted. I've been sentenced to death,

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Speaker 2: even though I know I didn't do it. They've got

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Speaker 2: to be they're just loving me at a distance now,

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Speaker 2: but they've got to be thinking. You know, you'd have

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Speaker 2: to have those doubts at some point. Of course, my

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Speaker 2: mama loves me, but you know what I mean, that

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Speaker 2: would be the beyond horror to realize that your own family,

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Speaker 2: even though they say they're on your side, how can

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Speaker 2: they be You've been convicted. Anyway, Here's what really happened, though,

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Speaker 2: when you get or not what really happened, Here's what

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Speaker 2: he was accused of. Okay, go back to December eighteenth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, his live in girlfriend twenty three month

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Speaker 2: old daughter. Okay, we're talking about a child that is

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Speaker 2: not quite two years old yet. Hailey was in the bathtub.

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Speaker 2: Mister Duncan briefly stepped away and returned to find her unconscious.

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Speaker 2: He tried to perform CPR. He rushed to neighbors for help,

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Speaker 2: who called paramedics. Doctors were unable to revive Hailey, and

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Speaker 2: she was pronounced dead at the hospital within the hour.

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Speaker 2: Shocked and grief stricken, mister Duncan, who has always maintained

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Speaker 2: his innocence, gave two statements to authorities, both of which

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Speaker 2: aligned with the investigation conducted by the police and are

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Speaker 2: consistent with current scientific understanding of the evidence as demonstrated

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Speaker 2: at hearing, which is why we're doing the show today.

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Speaker 2: Is hearing that took place in twenty twenty four. In

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Speaker 2: the weeks prior to her death, Hailey suffered from a

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Speaker 2: series of seizures. Now, Joe, before we get into her

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Speaker 2: background of what was going on, let's stop with a

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Speaker 2: dead twenty three month old in nineteen ninety three. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: you live with a woman. You're in Louisiana, and her

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Speaker 2: two year old child is now dead. And it doesn't

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Speaker 2: make sense that a child would just two months old,

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Speaker 2: I mean twenty three months old. They do drowned, but

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Speaker 2: not quickly in a tub. Usually babies do, infants do,

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Speaker 2: but a two year old is a toddler. You know,

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Speaker 2: two year olds can get up and do things. So

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking this guy had to have done something. There's

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Speaker 2: no way to just falls out in the tub, right.

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Speaker 1: Well, it can happen. And if in fact, this child

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Speaker 1: was a seizure prone and we have a diagnosis of seizure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it would be possible for a child to

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Speaker 1: seize if you step out just for a moment and

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Speaker 1: that child seeses just understand what's happening. The brain is

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Speaker 1: literally shutting down. And I'm sure that you have over

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Speaker 1: the years. I know I have. I've witnessed seizures. They're

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Speaker 1: a terrifying event. And I know that a lot of

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Speaker 1: our friends out there that listen to us, they've seen it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, these people are completely out of control.

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Speaker 1: You think about somebody that has epilepsy. They are as

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Speaker 1: vulnerable as a little child. How much more so now

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Speaker 1: a child just shy of a two year mark of age,

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Speaker 1: you know, has a seizure. They're unattended. Yeah, it's possible,

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Speaker 1: and they're still going to be uptaking air, right, They're

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Speaker 1: going to uptake air or attempt to if they are submerged,

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Speaker 1: Guess what's coming into their lungs. Well, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be bath water at that point in time. Wow. But

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Speaker 1: you know you have an individual that for whatever reason

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Speaker 1: turned away, maybe for a split second, for a millisecond,

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Speaker 1: this child has a seizure and the next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: the child is no longer with us period.

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Speaker 2: You know when you look at this case of what

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Speaker 2: happened when he did turn away for however long it was.

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Speaker 2: In the weeks prior to her death, Haley suffered from

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Speaker 2: a series of seizures as you described head injuries now,

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Speaker 2: the final injury stemming from a fall that resulted in

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Speaker 2: multiple skull fractures and a hospital stay for nearly a week.

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Speaker 2: So before she passed, before this day where she's in

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Speaker 2: the water, she has spent a week in the hospital,

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Speaker 2: documented head injuries, documented reasons she's having seizures. Right, the

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Speaker 2: doctors knew all this, so they've got this information. She's

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Speaker 2: home for two weeks when the drowning takes place, and

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm thinking they were awful quick to go

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Speaker 2: with the the drowning. You know that this guy must

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Speaker 2: have done something. Even though we have all this recent proof,

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Speaker 2: it's not six months ago, it's last week. She's been

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Speaker 2: out of the hospital fourteen days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you think about that, and you know that the

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Speaker 1: word abuse, right, you know, kind of hangs in the

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Speaker 1: back of your head. Can I tell you a quick story.

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Speaker 1: When my son Noah was very little, I guess he

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Speaker 1: was probably two, maybe he was walking obviously, and we

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Speaker 1: had him in a diaper and his sister, his older sister,

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Speaker 1: was at a wind meet and it was one of

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Speaker 1: these kind of buildings right where it's they can raise

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Speaker 1: and lower the walls so you can come in and

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Speaker 1: out during the summertime, but it's still covered. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to describe at any rate. In this grassy area where

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Speaker 1: we had a blanket set up because we were having

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Speaker 1: a picnic. Lexi was in between, you know, her races

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Speaker 1: and whatnot. Noah's just wandering around. Okay, Well, you know how,

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Speaker 1: and I know you know this because you're a daddy.

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Speaker 1: You know how. You know your kids scream. It's a

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Speaker 1: weird thing. You know their scream, you know their cry.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like it's it's something that is innate

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Speaker 1: within us to know this. I looked over and I

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Speaker 1: heard Noah scream and he was standing on a piece

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Speaker 1: of sheet metal that was covering a pump that went

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Speaker 1: to the pool, standing there and this THINGE is like,

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Speaker 1: it's like silk, okay, and we're in the dead of summertime.

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Speaker 1: I went and grabbed him, pulled him off of it,

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Speaker 1: and his feet were already blistered, and I remember hopping

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Speaker 1: in the car and he squaled. Man, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: baby is just and you know, and I took him

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Speaker 1: to the emergency room. And I can't tell you how

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Speaker 1: many times as an investigator I'd been to an emergency

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Speaker 1: room working a case involving a child, and the parents

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Speaker 1: are there, and of course the medical staff is there,

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Speaker 1: and you're looking at the parents, you're trying to talk

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Speaker 1: to them, you're interviewing them. And I'll never forget that

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Speaker 1: feeling that came over me while I was there. Because

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Speaker 1: his kid's feet were burned, Noahs were, and the way

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Speaker 1: the staff looked at me at that moment time they audited.

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Speaker 1: Their default position is I'd done something to my son,

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Speaker 1: you know. And literally the top the epidermis of his

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Speaker 1: feet was hanging off, that's how hot this thing was.

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Speaker 1: So you get that implanted into the back of your mind,

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Speaker 1: even though you might be pure as the driven snow,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to you know your parenting abilities, and

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Speaker 1: you haven't done anything malevolent here, that's going to be there.

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Speaker 1: How much more so when you have a child that

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Speaker 1: has had head injuries, they have drowned now and you've

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Speaker 1: got this man that is in custodial care of the child, automatically,

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Speaker 1: you know the the default is going to be, you know,

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Speaker 1: very accusatory. I'm just I'm amazed regarding this. How how

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Speaker 1: in fact this thing kind of played out, Dave, Because

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Speaker 1: you know, it's one thing if you're treating a child,

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Speaker 1: you're treating them for seizures. You know that they have seizures,

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Speaker 1: they fracture their skull, and they send you home with

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Speaker 1: a child to take care of them. But then, then,

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Speaker 1: to make matters worse, the child suddenly dies and you

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Speaker 1: are the target of an investigation. There's two names I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna mention, Dave, and one of them is not Jimmy. Okay,

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Speaker 1: these names hang in my mouth like a rotten meat.

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Speaker 1: Those names are Michael West and Stephen Hayne. They are,

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Speaker 1: in fact, if Shakespeare were to be writing this, these

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Speaker 1: people would be the villains in the story, and it's

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Speaker 1: not the first time that they would have appeared in

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Speaker 1: one of Shakespeare's plays. All Right, we returned to the well.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Hayne, who is or was a pathologist who is

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Speaker 1: now deceased, was working as a forensic pathologist in state Mississippi, Okay,

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Speaker 1: and he in fact, had been working with Michael West

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Speaker 1: for a number of years. And I think that reflectively,

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Speaker 1: we're going to touch on a couple of cases that

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Speaker 1: these two have been involved with before. Michael West, for

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Speaker 1: any of you guys that haven't heard of him, he

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Speaker 1: was a forensic odentologist and exact yeah, forensic odentologist is

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Speaker 1: actually otherwise known as a forensic dentist. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: here to assail forensic dentistry in any way, Okay. I

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Speaker 1: don't want people to come away thinking that it's completely invalid.

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Speaker 1: What we're focusing on here is going to be bitemark interpretation.

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Speaker 1: The other purpose of forensic dentistry is to get bodies identified.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen them work miracles, and I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: bodies that are so burned, so decayed that to get

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Speaker 1: the to get those elements of the mouth, the teeth out,

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Speaker 1: and be able to examine them and say that this is,

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Speaker 1: in fact, from a dental perspective, this is in fact

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Speaker 1: the person that we suspect that it is. And like

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Speaker 1: bodies that have been burned composing explosion victims, I've worked

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Speaker 1: all manner of cases with forensic dentist or odentologists to

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Speaker 1: arrive at those conclusions. One of the the big bugaboo

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Speaker 1: here though, is bite mark. Bite mark is one of

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Speaker 1: these practices that has been around for a long long

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Speaker 1: time day and in my opening I had mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of the alchemy, the idea that you can turn

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Speaker 1: lead into gold. In science, I know that you and

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Speaker 1: I have had this discussion before. In science, we want

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Speaker 1: to be able to quantitate anything that we can okay,

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Speaker 1: whether it's toxicology or DNA to a lesser degree, ballistics

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Speaker 1: I think fingerprints, which some people will you know, say

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Speaker 1: uh maybe. But with bite mark, it's such a dynamic thing.

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Speaker 1: Just think about this and either either you have had it,

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Speaker 1: or I've had it, or we both had it experiences

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Speaker 1: with our kids. Did your kids go to school, they

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Speaker 1: start school off? Any of your kids start school off

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Speaker 1: with a bier with a kid that was in the class.

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Speaker 1: Remember there's always a kid in the class that bites

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Speaker 1: kids all the time. All Right, your kid or maybe

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Speaker 1: somebody else's kid comes home, they've got a bite mark

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Speaker 1: on them, and you know the person. And it always

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Speaker 1: happens with little kids, right, You've got the one, the

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Speaker 1: one kid that you know will bite individuals and it

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Speaker 1: will harm, you know, harm a younger child. There's just

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Speaker 1: some kids that do this and it might be witnessed

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Speaker 1: with a case of bite mark. Though as it applies

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Speaker 1: to forensic investigations, here's the problem. The problem is is

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Speaker 1: that when people are bitten in life, they're not static.

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Speaker 1: They don't stay in one place. So let's walk through

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Speaker 1: very briefly the process of biting something. And this is

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Speaker 1: one of the things I teach at jack State in

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Speaker 1: my forensicaldetology section when I'm teaching my intro kids. So

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Speaker 1: you think about your teeth. We've got thirty two, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you've got incisors. Okay, you've got your canines, which some

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Speaker 1: people will say or my dog teeth right, the pointy ones,

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Speaker 1: it's got a single cusp on it. Then you've got

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Speaker 1: the bi cuspets which sit right behind the canine, and

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Speaker 1: then following the bi cuspets, you have the molars. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now let me tell you what the purpose is the incisors.

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Speaker 1: Just like we use the term in sharp force injury,

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Speaker 1: the incisors are they're used for cutting. Okay. So if

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Speaker 1: you think that's where we get the term insized, okay,

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Speaker 1: or that's where they get the term in size are from?

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Speaker 1: They get it from in size that means to cut.

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Speaker 1: All right. So let's say that we're going to eat

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Speaker 1: a sandwich. We take a bite of a sandwich, and

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Speaker 1: those leading teeth in the front, both upper and lower,

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Speaker 1: like almost like a guillotine if you think they go

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Speaker 1: through our PBJ. Okay, Well, what do the canones do well?

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Speaker 1: The canines act in a tearing mechanism. Okay. So you've

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Speaker 1: got these prongs that are kind of sitting up. You

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Speaker 1: got them on the upper the upper or called them

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Speaker 1: the maxillary canones. You got two of those, and then

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Speaker 1: below you've got to manon the teeth that's set in

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Speaker 1: your lower jaw, in your mandible. You've got those where

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Speaker 1: they go up as well, and they tear, they kind

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Speaker 1: of rip it away. Then to by cuspots. If you

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Speaker 1: think about them by meaning too. They act is almost

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Speaker 1: like pitchforks that pull the food back to the molars,

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Speaker 1: and the molars grind, all right. So that's kind of

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Speaker 1: the process of a bite. Now you've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of other actions that are going on here. The tongue

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Speaker 1: is involved, actually, particularly when we're eating something in bite marks, though,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that occurs with the tongue is

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Speaker 1: that there's a sucking action. Many times when you see

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Speaker 1: bite marks, you'll see the formation of a hickey if

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Speaker 1: you will, you know, kind of a love bite. And

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Speaker 1: trust me, I'm not making light of the sisters of

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Speaker 1: Coyo at FSU with Bundy, but if there's a classic

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Speaker 1: image that they've got of the buttock of one of

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Speaker 1: the sisters of Coyo and you can see this kind

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Speaker 1: of contoosed area on her rear end where you know,

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Speaker 1: Bundy allegedly bit down on her, and there's that sucking

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Speaker 1: motion that takes place. You've also got the scraping that

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Speaker 1: takes place of the teeth. The upper teeth are static.

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Speaker 1: The lower teeth in you know that are part of

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Speaker 1: your mandible. They're you know, they're movable, okay, so they

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Speaker 1: will move up in the bite and you've got somebody

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Speaker 1: that is alive beneath you can you imagine, and they're

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Speaker 1: trying to pull away. Well, if you do, let's just

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Speaker 1: say you do an examination of that bite mark that

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Speaker 1: is left behind. It is almost empirically impossible to assign

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Speaker 1: a number to that because of the dynamics of this bite.

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Speaker 1: Now they'll do all kinds of things like casting of

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Speaker 1: the teeth, they'll do impressions, these sorts of things, but

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Speaker 1: there's nothing that you can go on to really say

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Speaker 1: definitively that one bite originated, that that bite originated from

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Speaker 1: a specific person. It's kind of an educated guest. Now

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Speaker 1: you can probably qualitatively say it. You can say, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is a bite mark, looks like it might be human,

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Speaker 1: But I can't you know, place a number to that

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Speaker 1: to say, yeah, this is you know, uh, suspect A.

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Speaker 1: This is definitely suspect A's teeth that did this. And

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Speaker 1: this is one of the problems that that practice has

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Speaker 1: run into, and now it's fallen out of favor. It

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Speaker 1: really used to be where bite mark was kind of

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Speaker 1: the sexy thing that everybody. It was their default position.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, if we've got a bite mark. If we've

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Speaker 1: got a bite mark. Yeah, yeah, it's a This case

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Speaker 1: is solid. We're going to be able to move forward

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Speaker 1: with it. We can tie this bite mark back to

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Speaker 1: this individual. Their whole profiles that are developed upon people

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Speaker 1: that do biting. You know, if you have profilers that

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Speaker 1: are doing this sort of thing like sexual sadism and

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Speaker 1: all these things. And I'm not saying that that's not

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Speaker 1: a real thing, but what I'm saying, if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to scientifically say that that is a specific person that

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Speaker 1: did this, it's very, very difficult.

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Speaker 2: Joe, I thought it was an exact science until I

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Speaker 2: read about it, until I actually studied. Because I'm stay

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Speaker 2: with the ky Omega House in Bundy, because that's probably

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Speaker 2: one of the most famous cases that have ever been seen.

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Speaker 1: For hey, it's the first case that where it was

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Speaker 1: used and they derived a conviction from that.

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Speaker 2: And Bundy tried to file his teeth because he had

383
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Speaker 2: a very one of his teeth had a very specific

384
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Speaker 2: thing and he tried to change that. But anyway, after

385
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Speaker 2: I looked into it, yeah and realized doesn't even make

386
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Speaker 2: sense to use this as anything more than Okay, Joe

387
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Speaker 2: was in the room, Dave was in the room. Oh

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, half a day's teeth are knocked out.

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Speaker 2: Joe's got a full set. One of these guys left

390
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Speaker 2: the mark. You know, that's about all you can do.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes to this case show, there's so

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Speaker 2: much wrong with it. You had a man who is

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Speaker 2: on death row for twenty seven years for killing a

394
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: twenty three month old and sexually abusing him. We're talking

395
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 2: about that too. This little girl, according to these two doctors,

396
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: was sexually abused and then drowned and pool while in

397
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: the care of her mom's boyfriend. And a lot of

398
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Speaker 2: the information that you guys have already heard in the

399
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: first part of the show about her having seizures and things,

400
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: the jury never heard any of that at trial. The

401
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: jury never knew that the girl had a history. And

402
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 2: by the way, when we were talking about the what

403
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: had happened, you know, and how she'd only been home

404
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: two weeks, you know, after having skull fractures and everything

405
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: else from a seizure, that one of the things that

406
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: actually could bring about another seizure a warm bath, which

407
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: was exactly what she was doing at the time she died. Now,

408
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: to get to this bite mark evidence that actually convicted

409
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: the man. Yeah, how did it take place? Jesseph Scott

410
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: Morgan that I'm looking through this and you have the

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Speaker 2: body of a dead twenty three month old at the hospital, right, yeah,

412
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Speaker 2: and the body is then taken who gets the body first? Okay,

413
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 2: I have a dead body. The police are investigating what happens,

414
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: because I don't know what really happens. I'm at the hospital.

415
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 2: Here is the body of a twenty three month old

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Speaker 2: baby who is dead, and she's got a lot of damage,

417
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: a lot of damage. There's a lot going on here,

418
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: some healing wounds, some that are brand new. I mean,

419
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: there's a lot going on with this child. And her

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00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: mom wasn't home. It was this guy who was watching

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Speaker 2: this twenty three month old. I'm telling you, the pitchforks

422
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 2: and daggers are coming out on this guy.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and can you imagine. Let's just say he

424
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Speaker 1: wasn't on death row, right and he had been convicted

425
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: and hadn't been hadn't been sentenced. Oh yeah, he would

426
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: not There's a chance wouldn't have survived. Okay, to breathe,

427
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: to breathe, free air again. But the way this would

428
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: happen is that when this little angel's body would have

429
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: come from the hospital the corner, because they have corners

430
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 1: in Louisiana, would have been taken to the local pathologist,

431
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: and the pathologist would have, you know, done the examination,

432
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: would have done a forensic examination and forensic pathology dissection.

433
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: You know, with all of the assessments that they're going

434
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: to do. I still have yet to kind of understand

435
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: how they arrived putting bite mark aside, I still don't

436
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: understand how they arrived at the sexual assault portion of this.

437
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: You know, what, what precisely are they saying here? Is

438
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: this penetrative? Is this a penetrative event? Is it an

439
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: external event? So that's that's kind of curious to me

440
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: because when you have a child this young, you're going

441
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: to have very obvious trauma to this child's body in

442
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: her vaginal and potentially uh rectal area, and it would

443
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: be glaring. I mean, it would be so glaring, you know,

444
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: because it's not just the internal examination you know that

445
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: you're doing. There's an external examination where you're looking for

446
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: external trauma. As you can imagine, Dave, particularly if you're

447
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: talking about a full grown man that has you know,

448
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: forced himself on on this, uh, this baby. So how

449
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: do you arrive What empirical evidence do you have that

450
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: demonstrates this? That's that's my first My first question here,

451
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: so is is it just merely the supposition that that

452
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: you've got to a bite mark, so ergo that's sexual

453
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: in nature, and that's your premise that this thing is

454
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: kind of you know, growing from and then it begins

455
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: to pick up steam. Believe nothing that you hear and

456
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: only half of what you see. It's almost like sleight

457
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: of hand, right, It ain't really magic. There is no

458
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: such thing as magic, Okay, particularly in science. Most of

459
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: it is suggestion when you've got these kind of parlor

460
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: tricks that are going on. And Dave, I think that

461
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: one of the big indicators here is is how this

462
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: child's body was assessed. The body is an assess literally

463
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: by Hayne and by West, and they've come up with

464
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: several diagnoses here. You know, we've got the sexual assault,

465
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: we've got the drowning. And then you couple that with

466
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: the information they would have been armed with right about

467
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: the prior seizures. How could they not in the in

468
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: the in the fracture, the fracture skull.

469
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: That's what takes this to the gates of hell, because

470
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: they had to have known that this child had gone

471
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: through this incredible brain trauma, you know, in skull fractures,

472
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: and had been in the hospital for a week before

473
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: she had been home for that. You know, if they

474
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: didn't know, then there's more evil at work than I

475
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: even know. Because the day of the act, the day

476
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: that Haley died, her body was transported to Jackson, Mississippi,

477
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: to be autopsied by doctor Hayne. Now, doctor Hayne was

478
00:32:53,800 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 2: in business with doctor West. That's important to know. Doctor

479
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: West is that forensic odentologist that we were just talking

480
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: about a minute ago. And the idea was to bring

481
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: in doctor West to help identify what he claimed were

482
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: the same thing. He tried to convince you you were

483
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: looking at by mark and that there were bike marks

484
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: on Haley's body. That's what they were trying to I

485
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: don't understand why I'm really having trouble with this show.

486
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: I know that I don't like to ask the question why,

487
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: but I really am thinking, what was their motivation? What

488
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: was the motivation of these two respected men two do

489
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: what happened next? Because following a cursory visual examination, doctor

490
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: Hayne concluded, Okay, a cursory examination, meaning somebody with my

491
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: ability to look at a body and say, ah, yeah,

492
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: here's what I think happened. There's not even looking, there's

493
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: not really touching, There's not a whole lot here. It's

494
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: just a cursory examination looking at the body and say

495
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: saying Haley had been bitten and was sexually assaulted at

496
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: her about the time of death. And he reported that

497
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: to law enforcement based on a cursory investigation of the

498
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 2: body in a videotaped experiment. I want to make sure

499
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: you hear what I'm saying in a videotaped experiment. Joseph

500
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan. The day after Haley's death, doctor West pressed

501
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: molds of mister Duncan's teeth into Haley's body, creating the

502
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: bite marks that were later matched to mister Duncan's teeth

503
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 2: at trial.

504
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how and.

505
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: Why did that? Know? How and why? I want to

506
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: know why that would happen other than pure evil? Ye.

507
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: I just for the life of me, Joe, I can't.

508
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: Give you this. Yeah, it's it's fabrication of evidence, says

509
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: what it comes down to. And you asked me what

510
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: would be you asked me, what what the what the

511
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: motivation would be behind this? I can gear and damn

512
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: to you that it's not altruism. Uh, They're not doing

513
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,959
Speaker 1: this for the good of mankind. What's the old soul

514
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: song you know from the early early seventies, money money,

515
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 1: money money.

516
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: Eh.

517
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: You know you mentioned it and you said the word

518
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: they're in business. This is a business. You know they

519
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: talk about flesh trade, right, you've heard that term before.

520
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: This is right up there. Okay. You know when you

521
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: think about it, this guy and because if you can,

522
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: if you can keep, if you can keep the prosecutors

523
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: coming back to you, you know, business is open, baby.

524
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: So you think about that, and you think about the

525
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: time that this man spent in there. Just understand that

526
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: when a forensic goodontologist does one of these molds, what

527
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: they do is they actually go to the suspect. You can,

528
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, I urge anybody you can

529
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: go back to the Bundy case and you can see

530
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: the mold that they they wrote up a warrant for this.

531
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if you recall this in the story,

532
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: and compelled him to give.

533
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: It and he did everything. That's why I said the

534
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: guy was firing, he.

535
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: Tried to file his teeth. Yeah, well, it's the same

536
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: thing in mister Duncan's case. You know, he he is

537
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: being compelled to offer up a mold of his teeth.

538
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: You cast this mold, and then after the fact, you

539
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: go back and after the thing is hardened, you take

540
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: the body of this child. Let me repeat that, the

541
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: body of this child, and you videotape taking said mold,

542
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: and just thinking, if anybody out there has ever had

543
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: a cast mold of your teeth, they're sitting in doctor's,

544
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: a dentist office everywhere. If you get a chance, ask

545
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,959
Speaker 1: ask your dentist, when do you have a cast mold

546
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: that I can say? I want you to feel how

547
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: hard this thing is? All right? You take this and

548
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: then you get he's been videotaped pressing this into into

549
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: her skin. Okay, and you're damn right. It's going to

550
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: create an impression. It's like you know, by that time,

551
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: it's like pressing it into Plato. All right. And so

552
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: the fact that procedurally the jury is not afforded the

553
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: opportunity to understand the process here, it's it's it is

554
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: light of hand when you think about it, because you're

555
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: going to come away and if you press it into

556
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: her skin, then there's not going to be any question

557
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: about the mold that you have taken from the suspect,

558
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 1: which matches perfectly, and then press it into the skin,

559
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: which is going to also match perfectly with the mold

560
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: that originated with the accused. I mean, all of the

561
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: points are going to match up the fact that this

562
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: was done and that it was allowed.

563
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: It.

564
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: The more I talk about this again, I'm having a

565
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: lot of these thoughts that are coming back into my

566
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: mind where you know, you you feel as though that

567
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: somebody ought to be in prison and it shouldn't be

568
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: dunking right, okay, because of what has been There's there's

569
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: no way you can you can ever replace his life

570
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: that has been lost and the fact that he languished there.

571
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 1: Every single day you talk about Dave, people go, they

572
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: bang on and on about cruel and unusual all the time, right,

573
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: you know, particularly when we talk about capital cases. You

574
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: know where there's some O theology that doesn't quite work.

575
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: I'll see you your capital punishment. You know you know

576
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 1: uh uh, I don't know uh failures, And I'll raise

577
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: you mister Duncan's Hell on Earth, you know, Okay, because

578
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: that that's what you're looking at.

579
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: You and I were talking about this the other day.

580
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 2: There was a Netflix documentary that actually featured two men

581
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: that that were involved in something similar to this and

582
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: involving the same doctors here. And it was shocking to

583
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: me watching this to think about the lives of that

584
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: are lost to criminals with a doctor smock, you know.

585
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: And oh yeah, yeah, Levon Brooks and Kennedy Brewer, Yeah,

586
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: they're both. Yeah, oh it's you know. One and they

587
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: went to Parchment, which is almost as equally as horrible

588
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: as Angola, which is in you know, in Mississippi. One

589
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 1: on death row and one was in for life man.

590
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: And let me just fill in the blanks with that story.

591
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: There were two separate cases of young girls that were

592
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: found in creek beds and they had quote unquote bite

593
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: marks that matched each one of these individuals, two separate cases,

594
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: and they these these fellows, based upon that the expert

595
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: testimony of West and Haine, were actually convicted Dave and

596
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: sentenced to this hell on Earth. And they didn't they

597
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: did not do this, as it turned out. As it

598
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: turned out, it was a single perpetrator that did this.

599
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 1: It was one guy that killed both of these young

600
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: girls that were found dead at his hand. And these

601
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: two guys had been, you know, sitting in parchment all

602
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: of this time. There's a long history of this, uh

603
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: and it's it's a stain. I mean, it's it's an

604
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: absolute stain that this occurred. And what's what's really fascinating

605
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: about this. I think that we've got a we've got

606
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: a practice forensic codonology that has been around for years

607
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: and years. We depend upon them to do identifications for

608
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: us in the medical legal world, as I previously mentioned,

609
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: and so many good things have come out of forensic

610
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: codeontology practice. As a matter of fact, if you've ever

611
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: seen a gray scale ruler, it's at a ninety degree angle.

612
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 1: We use those on scenes too, you know, to provide

613
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: scale when we're taking pictures that scenes. You know what

614
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: those rulers are called. They're called EBFO rulers, and they're

615
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: now the industry standard. In ABFO stands for American Board

616
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: a Forensic Codeontologist. They're the ones that developed those rulers

617
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: and now they're used everywhere and they permeate all practice

618
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: within forensic science. You know, we'll use them in the morgue,

619
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: you use them at scenes, you know, to demonstrate, you know,

620
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: bits of evidence that are out there. And that's the

621
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: legacy that I would prefer, you know, uh, forensic odentologists have,

622
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: but because of individuals like these aforementioned subjects, Unfortunately, nowadays,

623
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: when you think of forensic identology and bite mark, we're

624
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: left with nothing, with nothing but pseudoscience and modern alchemy.

625
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks