WEBVTT - Three Approaches to AI Policy 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.240 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios, 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:14.000 How Stuff Works. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.720 I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:18.560 How Stuff Works and I Heart Radio and I Love 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.680 all Things Tech. And Oz and Kara from Sleepwalkers have 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.799 come back to join me yet again. Spoiler alert. We 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.000 actually haven't left anywhere. We just sat here the whole 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.319 time and we're recording two episodes back to back. But 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.839 if you haven't heard our previous discussion, which is kind 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.199 of a high level discussion about AI and the potential 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:41.000 dangers and sort of the the various messaging we've received 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:43.879 about AI and the warning signs and the promises, you 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.680 should listen to that episode first. If you haven't subscribed 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.839 to Sleepwalkers, you should absolutely do that too, because the 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.200 show is amazing. And today we're gonna talk a little 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.800 bit more about how different parts of the world are 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:01.200 treating AI, whether it's from a government perfective or a 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:06.280 business perspective, The technological you know, development of AI, where 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:10.760 is that actually happening the fastest, And the answer to 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:14.600 that might surprise you if you haven't been paying close 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.280 attention to news around the world and we're going to 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.640 dive into all of that. So, without any further Ado, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.280 welcome back to the show, Os and Kara, Thank you 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.640 so much. Jonathan, Hi Jonathan again. Hi again. Yea. And 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.200 while we were between shows, we were just you know, 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.319 talking about Lady Gaga and Shakespeare as you are want 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.360 to do. Uh, this is kind of what we technologists 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.039 technology podcasters tend to to really, you know, kind of 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.080 revel in when we're not on on Mike or at 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.200 least not recording. But I wanted to talk first about 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:59.880 where do we see really aggressive you know, moving forward 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.720 on on technology and AI, Like, where are we seeing 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:07.960 the most development in AI? Because a lot of people 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.560 think of Silicon Valley as sort of the place like 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:15.280 it's it's the breeding ground for all technologies. But as 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.200 it turns out, that's that's really a very narrow view, 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:24.680 and it it's ignoring a giant superpower that is pouring 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:33.399 a lot of resources into AI development. Right China. Yeah, sorry, 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.400 that China is is um is leading the charge on AI. 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.720 And one of the guests we had on the show 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:44.280 on Sleepwalkers is a guy called Kaifu Lee who was 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:47.160 part of the team at Apple that developed the technology 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.920 behind SyRI in the nineties, went on to run Google 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.320 China and is now one of the biggest technology investors 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.600 in China through a fund called Signivation Ventures, which is 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.920 about all sorts of different technology ventures in China, including 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.720 several unicorns a billion dollar companies, one of which is 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.400 called meg v which does facial recognition technology. Kai Fu 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:13.200 Lee recently wrote a book called AI Superpowers, China, Silicon 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.480 Valley and the New World Order. New World Order is 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.239 quite a resonant phrase, shall we say, But the thesis 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.200 of the book is simply that China are doing AI 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.040 a lot better, a lot more aggressively, and with a 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.520 lot more promise than we are in the US. And 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:33.520 that's for two reasons. Number one, China, unlike the US, 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:40.080 is a centralized country, a centralized government who have said absolutely, 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.600 with no hesitation, AI is our biggest priority. In seventeen, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.839 the Communist Party released what they called the New Generation 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.960 Artificial Intelligence Development Plan, and the first paragraph read AI 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.000 has become a new focus of international competition. AI is 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.280 a strategic technology that will lead the future. The was 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.320 major developed countries are taking the development of AI as 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:09.640 a major strategy to enhance national competitiveness and protect national security. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:11.840 So China have been on this for two years, I 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.360 mean for longer than two years, but they're taking immensity 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.279 seriously and we're not. We did have our own presidential 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.880 executive order in April of this year, but it didn't 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.600 come with any funding a kaifu. Second point, which I'm 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.720 sure we'll get onto, is that the China also have 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.880 a much richer data set, which is the power behind 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.040 the throne of AI. Yeah, something that I think a 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.280 lot of Americans in particular aren't aware of is that 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.320 when you look over at China and China's efforts to 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.680 to own AI essentially, I mean there there's they're saying, 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:51.440 we are going to be established as the the primary 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.760 source of AI development by twenty thirty and they're they're 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.919 well on their way to doing that already. Um. You 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.239 look at the the B A T that's the three 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.599 big companies that collectively are valued at more than a 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.479 trillion dollars, bay Do, Ali, Baba and ten Cent, and 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:15.560 those are already enormous corporations that have deep ties to 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.920 the state government of China than that are working very 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.440 hard in AI. But beyond that, even though you know, 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:24.680 you might think, well, those are maybe three big companies, 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.440 but how is that that that big of a of 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.800 a of a you know, a force on its own. 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:37.920 They also invest heavily in lots of startup companies, including unicorns. Uh. 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.480 They in fact, they out of the six hundred billion 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.440 dollars of unicorns out of China from a couple of 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.680 years ago, they made up fifty percent of the investment 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:54.080 into those companies. Then beyond that, they're investing in companies 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.719 outside of China and in other parts of the world, 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.400 including the United States. Uh. Ten Cent, for example, has 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:05.960 been investing heavily in video games over in the West Coast, 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.560 I'm along with lots of other different companies out there. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:15.760 So not only are you talking about a country that 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.840 has an enormous population and therefore an enormous source of 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:24.279 information on its own, it has spread out around the globe, 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:29.600 so it's gathering information from everywhere. So it's it's really 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:34.520 this incredibly pervasive system to gather the fuel that is 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.680 going to power artificial intelligence. Uh. And meanwhile, you also 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:45.480 have very smart people running very sophisticated laboratories working on 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.120 the next generation of of algorithms and applications of AI. 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.520 So you've got like the perfect storm over there. Yeah. Absolutely. 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.120 And I also think, I mean, just in terms of 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.880 what you're talking about, you know, Tencent being involved in 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.240 Fortnite if I'm correct, Yes, yeah, I was just doing 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.400 was doing the floss right over here. Actually, that's right. 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.840 And also the ownership of a little known dating app 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.520 called grinder Um, which the US is actually trying to 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.200 get back just because of the national security threat that 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:24.119 is involved in the Chinese owning uh so much user 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:30.360 data from United States citizens, including U S military personnel. Um. 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:37.640 I think I think what's alarming about this is that 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:42.600 we is that we're sort of entering into this new 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:49.600 territory of you know, war and competition and war being 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.280 less about you know, guns and bombs and more. And 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.080 this is not these are not my words I've read this, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.760 but more about you know, bits and bites, so to speak. 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.480 I think you read that from Secret Ar State Mike Pompeo. 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:07.480 That's right, I'm quoting Mike Pompeio. Happily, I think, um, 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.000 which actually he said in regards to Huawei, which is 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.520 obviously in the news quite a bit recently. Um, you know. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.880 I think that the there's there's the technology race, which is, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.680 you know, sort of who's going to have who's going 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.960 to advance quickly and in the best way. But it's 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:31.840 also about sort of who owns data and who has 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:35.199 access to what data. I think the China, the Chinese 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:39.960 government does not really have a problem uh spying on 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.720 its citizens. I don't even think we'd call it spying necessarily. 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.040 I think it's sweeping, um is what is what they 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.920 tend to do, and um with that data can make 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:55.400 some pretty uh you know, chilling accusations about people who 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.520 they think are dissenting against the government. Um. You know, 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.520 in the United States, we are very free with the 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.800 data we give away because I don't think enough people 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.360 think about how much data they're giving away in any 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:13.839 given day. But the US government hopefully will remain so 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:19.880 is not as what's the word pervasive, pervasive and aggressive 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:24.320 about collecting said data and using it to um, you know, 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:28.839 in prison there citizens. So I don't know, I think 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.560 China can kind of get away with more and maybe 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.520 that's why the Chinese government is allowing Chinese businesses to 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.600 get away with more than the US government. Ill saying 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:40.720 it's worth pointing out in the US, you know, we 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.280 have this phenomenous surveillance capitalism, So there's a bunch of 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.880 big firms who take all the data we give them, 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.400 use it to model us, make predictions about us, and 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:55.040 sell us more stuff. In China, it's surveillance statecraft, and 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:00.360 the data is not siloed between Amazon, Google, face Book 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.920 and others. UM. It's tends to be in the hands 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.960 of the big technology companies in China, you know who, 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.280 given that they're not fully state owned, but much more 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.760 hand in pocket with the government than our technology companies 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.400 are share their collected data much more widely, which allows 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.920 them to make better predictions about what might happen and 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.679 be determinative about the outcome of their citizens. I do 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.240 think it's worth pointing out a lot of this conversation 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.880 about the difference between AI in China and the United 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.920 States that we have on this side of the Pacific 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:38.040 um is filtered through our liberal individual worldview, which states 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.360 that you know, free will, the ability to control one's 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:46.200 own outcomes, um, the you know, the the recognition of 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.040 oneself as an individual are the utmost goods, and that 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.840 worldview simply isn't shared throughout most of China. Now you 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.760 can say that's that will change, you know, society opens up. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.360 You can say there's an inevitable progress, if you want 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.640 to call it, program us towards our worldview. But the 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.040 fact is that isn't the world view in China. And 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:08.000 many Chinese citizens are used to living in one on 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:12.480 one party states since um, since mal z Dong or 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.000 where it was in the nineteen forties, and so there's 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:16.600 a there's a there's a there's a sense of being 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:22.840 accustomed to the belief that harmony and the furthering of 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:27.520 the state's goals rise um rising is a rising tide 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.240 which raises all boats. And so you know, I think 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.360 we have this desire to see and of course it 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.120 has happened in China. There's been Channeman's Square, you know. 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.600 There there there have been organic protest movements. But we 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:43.079 do have the desire to impose our absolute belief in 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.520 the importance of the individual and free will on the 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.120 rest of the world. And you know, I'm not sure 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.120 that if you ask the average Chinese citizen, you know, 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:56.080 do you resent being surveiled when the most highest number 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.360 of people have been lifted out of poverty in the 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.719 fastest time of any country tree in history. I think 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.680 the answer might be, you know, perhaps we prefer more freedoms, 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.200 but this isn't the worst thing in the world. Also, 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.080 China is an ethnically largely ethnically homogeneous society. So for that, 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.760 for the average Han Chinese, that the trade off for this, 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.880 this lifting out of poverty and the national pride which 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.800 is which is absolutely on the rise in China, giving 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.160 a much stronger sense of national identity, I would argue 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.240 than we have here, the tradeoff may be worth it. 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.680 What's very chilling, Beyond chilling is the treatment of the 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.120 non Han Chinese in China, the tibet the Tibetans, and 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.360 specifically the Weakers, who are really the people who experienced 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:43.040 the hard end of this surveillance state in China. Hey, guys, 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.280 it's Jonathan from the future. I'm just popping into interrupt 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.360 here because as it turned out, we got so into 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.600 this conversation I totally forgot to put in a break. 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.760 So let's take a quick break even while Jonathan in 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.800 the past and ours and Kara continue their conversation. We'll 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:09.880 get back to that in just a second, Hey, guys, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.199 Jonathan from the future. Again, we're going to get right 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.680 back into the episode. Oz was just talking about China 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.680 and it's use of technology and the creation of a 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:24.160 surveillance state, and we're gonna pick up with my response. Yeah, 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.360 and as we mentioned in the last episode, you know, 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.240 we were talking about about bias and how that can 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.800 be unintentionally inserted into a system and how that can 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.800 cause harm. But you could also intentionally create a biased 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:43.559 system specifically in order to keep tabs on particular populations 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:49.840 that that are, you know, minorities, and yeah, the and 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:56.000 obviously that could lead to truly horrific inhumane practices, leading 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.839 all the way up to even genocide. Yes, I mean, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:05.400 right now what we're seeing is sort of um imprisonment 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.440 in re education camps. But I think it's important to 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.880 note and this is again, you know, piggybacking off of 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.400 what Oz was saying. You know, the Chinese Communist Party 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.320 has often used surveillance as a means for control. The 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.960 differences is that artificial intelligence enables a kind of surveillance 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.800 that we haven't seen before, which is, you know, in China, 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:32.760 there is basically a very large operation that they call Egypt, 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:37.960 which is the Integrated Joint up Integrated Joint Operations. And 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.480 what that does is it's a database that is sweeping 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:47.800 information from you know, basically every source imaginable WiFi, you know, 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.840 visitor management system so you know, for example, in America, 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.640 what we call you know, when you walk into a 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.560 building and register your name to visit an office. You know, um, 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:01.440 wecha um we chat conversations, you know, uh, when you 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.360 leave the country, when you come back in the country, 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:08.720 all of these things are being swept into um a 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.200 larger I don't I don't know what the word is 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:12.800 for it. It's not server, I don't know how to 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.600 say it. It's a system. It's a system. It's a 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.160 system that it's then making decisions and predictions about who 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.240 is basically doing right and doing wrong. And we just 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.280 simply don't have We don't have anything like that in 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.680 the United States right now. I mean, certainly we can 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.000 there there are companies that can use our information in 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.640 the United States to make predictions about us, to sell 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:40.160 us things, to basically set our insurance premiums. But as 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:45.240 far as just an integrated system that is making decisions 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.960 about its people and then also using it to imprison 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.200 its people. There's it's just unprecedented. And you know, the 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.960 Human Rights Watch is basically calling it a humanitarian crisis, 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:58.480 which I which I think it is when you think 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.400 about you know, um, your own country basically spying on 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:07.040 your conversations. Um, really, I mean obviously without your consent. 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.400 People are stopped all the time in China and their 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.840 phones are taken and read through like that's a very 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.440 that's a sort of normal day, um, and then using 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.480 that information to put you in a re education camp. 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.760 I mean, I think if most Americans knew that, which 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.560 I don't think they do, um, they would be alarmed. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.040 But let's be clear. You know, we're we're very far 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.120 from having a re education camps in the US, but 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.960 we do, and it's not on a state level or 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.640 a national level. We do make decisions about people's outcomes 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.800 with stuff like credit schools. I mean the credit schools. 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:47.680 You know in China it's it's it's ethnically it's explicitly ethnic. Right. 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.560 Well again in China they wouldn't say that, but effectively 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.680 it's explicitly ethnic against the wagers. In the US, we 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.160 have credit schools and guess what most people who grow 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.240 up with a certain amount of privilege know what their 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.800 credit school is, understand the principle of the credit school. 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.080 Get a credit card as early as they can, start 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.439 building their credit, making monthly payoffs, and then when it 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.760 comes time to get a mortgage and buy a house 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.359 and move to a nice neighborhood, guess what, All the 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.720 pieces are in place. But but for for many people 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:15.840 who don't grow up with the privilege, that the credit 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.320 school comes as a complete surprise at a certain point 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.480 in life that you know, there's even notion of having 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:22.840 bad credit. All of a sudden, you know you've got 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:26.119 bad credit without ever having realized that you had this 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.280 credit school you're supposed to be working on. And guess what. 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:30.400 You can't move out of your neighborhood, You can't get 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.720 what you want, You can't buy your children and things 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.280 they need. So we do have this here. It's not 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:41.040 state policy, but we've we've effectually outsourced this predictive technology 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:42.760 about what people are going to do in the future 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.600 to private corporations who who use it to profit from 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.520 us rather than to control us. But we shouldn't beat 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.440 we shouldn't beat China too hard with this stick when 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.600 we have certain analogous practices here in the US. Sure, 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.280 I mean you could even I'm sure there are plenty 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.040 of people who do argue that when we the practices 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:06.440 of certain actual state level organizations in the United States, 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.479 that we should be concerned about what sort of systems 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.960 they might be using. I'm thinking specifically of the n 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.840 s A because it wasn't that long ago when we 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.600 were having enormous headlines about the n s A and 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.840 its practices of trying to have you know, essentially listening 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:28.280 points just outside of major UH communications channels, whether it 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.960 was Internet service providers or the telecommunications industry in general, 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.080 and you start thinking, well, if you start applying these 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:40.359 kind of AI surveillance UH programs, which is you know, 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:45.360 in essay, is all about trying to detect communications UH 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.480 in that everyone gets lumped into and not just bad actors, 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.600 then you start getting those concerns. And you know, we 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.560 we saw plenty of that even without the AI element 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.000 when the n s A stories were breaking a couple 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.040 of years ago, even just to the point where we 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.400 were seeing people in the n s A behaving poorly, 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:11.000 like using the information gathered to track down like old relationship, 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.080 you know, like old boyfriends and girlfriends, not an ethical 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.320 use of your power if you're if you're looking in 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.199 on communications. So we know that it doesn't have to 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:27.280 be a an official state line policy for this to 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:32.480 either be uh misused in an unauthorized way or put 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.760 to use in a way that maybe it's not immoral, 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.359 but you could at least argue it's a moral with 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.080 a lot of the the business practices, because that's morality 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.679 is not consideration when you're looking at how do we 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.840 make more revenue, how do we make a greater profit? Um, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.560 And and you know you're just you're essentially you're checking 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.159 off boxes saying, right, here's how we can make this 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:59.359 more efficient, have a lower cost to us, a greater 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.520 payoff off in the long run. And so we start 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.640 to see how exactly as you were saying, Oz that 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.040 that while you it is easy to point to another 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:13.560 country and say these policies are clearly uh harmful to 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.880 people and are therefore bad, we also need to make 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.399 sure we're reflecting on the environment that we ourselves are 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.960 in when we I'm sorry, go ahead, oh no, I 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.359 was just gonna make one comment, you know, and for example, 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:30.720 in the state of Arizona, if you applied for a 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.520 driver's license in the state of Arizona, your photo was 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:38.360 then put into a database that was being used by 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.480 that was being used for facial recognition, right, and that 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.159 was without driver's consent. Basically, law enforcement came back and 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:47.159 was like, whoa we you know, we think people know 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.000 that this is going on. You know, that was their 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.960 best answer. It wasn't like, oh, there was you know, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.560 fine print that people didn't read. It was basically like, well, 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.600 we thought people knew, and so you know, I we 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.240 can't exonerate yeah, sort of our own our home turf, 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.680 because there's certainly I don't even know if you would 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:09.480 call this misuse. It just seems like exploitation um for 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.960 gain for for basically gains of I think police departments 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.719 that are seeing this technology, recognizing how powerful it is, 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:23.760 but also realizing that it's something that needs to be 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.960 regulated and not knowing how or not really caring. And 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.480 I think Jonathan, you used the great example of the 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:31.879 n S a UM, which I think tie is very 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.320 neatly to what we're talking about. Edward Snowden had a 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:38.560 very haunting phrase which was turnkey tyranny to describe basically, 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.280 once you build infrastructure for something, um, anything can happen. 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:44.960 And the technological infrastructure we have here in the US 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.119 for surveillance and social control is I mean, we have 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:52.160 few cameras, you know, there are more distinctions between companies, 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.280 but effectively the infrastructure exists to do what's happening in 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.440 China here. And that's very frightening because you know, as 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:03.360 we know for Henry Ford's what wonderful pressure to build 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.840 roads in the US. Guess what you build the roads, 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:07.840 people are going to drive cars and not take the train. 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.920 So once this infrastructure exists, and you add to that, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.600 you know a leader who doesn't respect norms or wartime, 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.919 all of a sudden the barriers that we think are 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.160 so solid to protect that infrastructure being weaponized against us 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.040 start to road very very quickly. And I think that 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.200 that's the moment we're in right now. And that's another 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.920 reason why he wants to call this podcast sleepwalkers, because 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.640 we don't insist on those norms and legal protections. Bit 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.280 by bit, the infrastructure will have its own logic and 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:41.280 one emergency after another. Remember the Patriot Act will allow 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.639 this technology to be used against us in ways that 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.160 we currently find sickening and horrifying and terrifying. In China, 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:52.960 they could easily come home. Yeah. Yeah, it's a sobering point. 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:55.680 And on that point, I think we're going to take 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:57.919 a quick break so I can suck my thumb in 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:11.280 the corner. Okay, alright, Pruny thomicide. Now we've talked about 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.600 some of the differences between say, China and the United States. 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.719 One of the things I thought was interesting is the 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.399 idea that in China you have you have sort of 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:29.199 a very concrete strategy in place, right, a top down strategy, 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:33.080 and it's it's pretty much all the companies that are 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.199 working on this strategy are in alignment with it to 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:39.800 some degree or another. Some are very much in step 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:44.600 with the state government. Others are to a lesser degree perhaps, 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.720 but still you know, following along the strategy. Meanwhile, in 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:52.720 the United States, it's much more of this competitive this 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:56.680 this classic capitalist idea of competition in the space where 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.280 you have all these different pockets that are all trying 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:03.280 to own a I themselves competing against each other. So 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.520 we're getting lots of interesting innovation, but not nearly at 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:09.639 the same speed or scale as we're seeing in China. 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:12.800 Is that is that more or less a correct assumption 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.439 or am I way off base here? No? I think 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:20.200 that's completely fair. You know, this year, the government that 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:25.560 President Trump did announce an executive order on AI in February, 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:28.040 and so that was that was seen as a kind 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:31.639 of related response to what China are doing. And that 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:36.040 executive order that the President issued had four major components. 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.439 Number one, to set AI as a national priority of 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.760 the United States. Number two, interestingly, to get better at 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:47.640 data sharing between the government and private enterprise. Number three, 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:50.640 it is the ethical guidelines on how AI is used 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:53.720