Speaker 1: Hey, guys, We've had a lot of requests for the
Speaker 1: show that um we did this week, and I know
Speaker 1: a lot of people are really interested in this case.
Speaker 1: But before we start, I wanted to quickly address why
Speaker 1: we haven't done this particular mystery yet. It's my fault, Seriously.
Speaker 1: I have this kind of short list of quote unsolved
Speaker 1: unquote mysteries that I don't really want to do um
Speaker 1: for whatever reason. We get requests for them and we
Speaker 1: add them to the list, UM, but we kind of
Speaker 1: know we won't get to them. Mar Murray was on
Speaker 1: that list almost since the inception of this show. She's
Speaker 1: been on the list, but we keep getting requests for it,
Speaker 1: and often they're from listeners who suggested many other really
Speaker 1: compelling mysteries. Mar Murray has always kind of been a
Speaker 1: clear cut case in my mind. Mar Murray twenty one
Speaker 1: ran away from home for reasons I have always admitted
Speaker 1: to be unknown. She no longer wanted to participate in
Speaker 1: her life and just walked away from it. I lived
Speaker 1: and worked in Stockford's, Massachusetts for a while, and I
Speaker 1: have holidayed Amhurst a number of times, and I thought
Speaker 1: I understood Mara, but I'm pretty sure I'm wrong, thinking sideways.
Speaker 1: I don't understand. You never know stories of things. We
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hey, it's thinking sunyways
Speaker 1: the podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm Devin, I'm Joe,
Speaker 1: I'm Steve, and we're gonna definitely not even close to
Speaker 1: solve a mystery tonight. Yeah, we'll shed a little light
Speaker 1: on things. That's the best we'll do. That's the best
Speaker 1: we're getting right there. I think without without a bunch
Speaker 1: of dogs, you know, like like you know, snipping dogs
Speaker 1: and stuff like that in a time machine and a
Speaker 1: time machine. But yeah, well, basically what we need to
Speaker 1: do is go out to that where the disappearance took
Speaker 1: place and dig everything up for miles around. I feel
Speaker 1: like that's already been done somehow, No, I think. Okay,
Speaker 1: so tonight we're finally getting around to doing the disappearance
Speaker 1: of mar Murray. So where would you like to start?
Speaker 1: I guess we'll start where most people start, and that
Speaker 1: is the credit card fraud, MA credit card. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: although this, let me be up front about this, I
Speaker 1: don't think the credit card fraud had much to do
Speaker 1: with her disappearance at all. Sure, you know, let's let's
Speaker 1: just jump into it. So, yeah, let's just go for it.
Speaker 1: So in November of two thousand three, three months prior
Speaker 1: to her disappearance, Mara Murray used a discontinued credit card
Speaker 1: number to order eighty dollars worth of pizza. Discontinued. That
Speaker 1: means it's hers, but it was a closed account. Discontinued
Speaker 1: means it wasn't hers, And it was also a closed account.
Speaker 1: It's a really nice way of saying she committed credit
Speaker 1: card fraud. Okay, how did she manage to run the card? Yeah,
Speaker 1: as far as I understand it, Uh, you know, in
Speaker 1: two thousand three, it's not true. Maybe that was when
Speaker 1: they just had a little machine, remember, Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: you know amherst It's totally possible that that was the case,
Speaker 1: and I did it, wasn't she stole credit card numbers
Speaker 1: or credit cards from fellow students at U. Mass charges
Speaker 1: we're going to be dropped against her following three months
Speaker 1: of good behavior after her trial, which was in December.
Speaker 1: It's pretty unclear to me if this had anything to
Speaker 1: do with her disappearance, because there was no time served
Speaker 1: and it's not really going to impact her life too terribly. Much.
Speaker 1: You know, this is the sort of thing. It's eighty
Speaker 1: dollars on a credit card for pizza. Small thing. Jump
Speaker 1: forward four days prior to her February ninth disappearance. That
Speaker 1: means it was February five that this happened. Mara spoke
Speaker 1: with her sister on the phone while she was on
Speaker 1: break from her job on campus. She was she worked
Speaker 1: at the security desk. Is my understanding. She apparently spoke
Speaker 1: with her sister about her sister's relationship problems she and
Speaker 1: her they were having problems with her fiance, apparently, and
Speaker 1: a few hours after returning to work, Mara broke down,
Speaker 1: crying so much so that her work supervisor had to
Speaker 1: escort her back to her dorm room. No, correct me
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. I seemed to remember in some of
Speaker 1: the reading that after she had got off the phone
Speaker 1: with her sister, I swear I saw something that she
Speaker 1: had gotten another phone call which caused her to break down.
Speaker 1: That's my understanding of fairly mysterious. I think that stance
Speaker 1: this is all, you know. The problem is that, like
Speaker 1: most of this is kind of hearsay or you know,
Speaker 1: it's that the cell phone records showed that she had
Speaker 1: just spoken to her sister, or she just said she
Speaker 1: spoke to her sister, and the cell phone records showed
Speaker 1: that she had actually received another call. It's a little well,
Speaker 1: not everything's released. It's not because it's an ongoing investigation. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the police files are still still still still
Speaker 1: not all of them, but some of them certainly are.
Speaker 1: Maura never discussed why. She refused to talk about why
Speaker 1: she was so upset, you know. Of course, her supervisor
Speaker 1: said she was just emotional. It's possible, you know, that
Speaker 1: happens sometimes, but it seems it seemed like it struck
Speaker 1: people out of character. For her. Well, yeah, I'm at
Speaker 1: work and suddenly I break down into a full blown
Speaker 1: crying jag. That's not normal behavior. I agree, if you're
Speaker 1: a particularly emotional person, maybe, but there's that, like, you know,
Speaker 1: the death in the family. I don't make you cry.
Speaker 1: Two days before she disappeared, so that would be the seventh,
Speaker 1: her father arrived in town. Her father is kind of
Speaker 1: a character in these stories for a lot of different
Speaker 1: reasons that will discuss most of later, but he says
Speaker 1: that he and Marrow were shopping for used car for
Speaker 1: her because it turns out that perhaps her Saturn was
Speaker 1: a bet of a lemon. Yeah, she was having some
Speaker 1: car problems. I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what.
Speaker 1: I saw one that had a blown cylinder. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that means like a blown head gasket or
Speaker 1: what it no idea. But the trouble with this little
Speaker 1: bit of information is that friends and Mara's boyfriend say
Speaker 1: they don't remember her mentioning going car shopping at all.
Speaker 1: And that's the sort of thing that you kind of
Speaker 1: excitedly talk about with your friends. Usually, if you're going
Speaker 1: to get a car, you're usually like, oh, my dad
Speaker 1: and I are car shopping. You know, if she's having
Speaker 1: a huge problem with her car in a place like Amhurst,
Speaker 1: where you you kind of drive most places, you're going
Speaker 1: to probably off handedly mention it to at least one person.
Speaker 1: Unless she just wanted to get the car fixed. It
Speaker 1: could be that she, let's say, she really liked that
Speaker 1: car and Dad, I just need you to fix it.
Speaker 1: And Dad says, know that the thing is a lemon,
Speaker 1: and I keep dumping money into it. We're just getting
Speaker 1: you a different car. Well, then you would complain to
Speaker 1: your friends about how that's true. It is making you
Speaker 1: get true. You know, I think that's that's one of
Speaker 1: those like little tidbits of most people seem to not
Speaker 1: actually believe that they were car shopping. Yeah, but I don't.
Speaker 1: You know, again, this is a one of the big
Speaker 1: problems with this whole story is that it's just he said,
Speaker 1: she said. I'm inclined to believe her to be. But
Speaker 1: you know, she might have like not told people just
Speaker 1: because she wanted to surprise and surprise people by showing
Speaker 1: up in the new car one day. Or maybe she
Speaker 1: was embarrassed about the fact that her she needed a
Speaker 1: new car but her dad had to buy it for yeah,
Speaker 1: Or she was going to get a used car. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's kind of one of those
Speaker 1: one or another things. Either way, he later dropped her off,
Speaker 1: they went out to dinner, you know, did father daughter stuff.
Speaker 1: Then he loaned her his car, a new Toyota, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she was going to take it. She drove him
Speaker 1: back to his hotel room and then took it and
Speaker 1: went to a party that night and apparently got a
Speaker 1: little tipsy. Maybe it's unclear, but she attempted to drive
Speaker 1: the car back to her father's hotel room, which people
Speaker 1: think is is weird, but I think there's fair explanations
Speaker 1: for it, I guess. But actually she ended up just
Speaker 1: crashing it into a card rail instead, worth the damage
Speaker 1: to the car something like that. Yeah. The police arrived
Speaker 1: on the scene of the crash and questioned her, but
Speaker 1: didn't administer any sobriety tests or arrest her, which is
Speaker 1: weird in a college town. Yes, in a college town cops,
Speaker 1: that's one of the first things they do when it's
Speaker 1: nighttime and you've had an accident, they check you for
Speaker 1: booze because you're a student and you were probably drinking.
Speaker 1: So we'll talk about this in a little bit too,
Speaker 1: because the guy who responded maybe was had some stuff
Speaker 1: going on in his own I I kind of think
Speaker 1: that sounds to me like it's February in Massachusetts. She
Speaker 1: probably hit a patch of ice and just crashed into
Speaker 1: the guardrail, and then you know, he saw the ice
Speaker 1: and said, oh, you hit that patch of ice. Great, fine,
Speaker 1: you know. On the other hand, I don't. I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that could have been going
Speaker 1: on there. Either way, They called the tow truck and
Speaker 1: the cop gave Maura a ride back to her father's
Speaker 1: hotel room at about four forty five in the morning.
Speaker 1: That morning, she called her boyfriend from the hotel room
Speaker 1: to talk with him about the accident in alcohol. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he lived about me and he was like two times,
Speaker 1: so it was like two forty five in the morning
Speaker 1: where he was at. I bet he appreciated that. Well,
Speaker 1: it was four forty five for her. You know, it's
Speaker 1: kind of that's a weird time to call somebody either way.
Speaker 1: Although I guess if you just had a car accident,
Speaker 1: you don't think about that. You just grabbed the phone
Speaker 1: and call. Yeah, although god, you're not gonna believe it
Speaker 1: just happened. Okay, But the car crash was at like two,
Speaker 1: so there were two hours in the remaining Yeah, so
Speaker 1: who knows. The next morning, her father, Fred determined that
Speaker 1: the damage um that she had done to the car
Speaker 1: would be covered under his insurance plans, so he rented
Speaker 1: a car, dropped more often her dorm room, and drove home.
Speaker 1: He called Maura later that evening. It's always says later
Speaker 1: that evening, but it was like eleven thirty at night. Again,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of weird time stuff happening here. Ut
Speaker 1: called her to discuss how to file the insurance report
Speaker 1: because she had been driving and she needed to do
Speaker 1: some of the reporting, And they decided that they would
Speaker 1: talk more later, like on Monday. And of course this
Speaker 1: information all comes from him. Around midnight on February nine,
Speaker 1: shortly after speaking to her father, so it was right
Speaker 1: after she'd gotten off the phone with him about the
Speaker 1: insurance claim, Mara used her personal computer to search map quest. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was the early two thousand's and that was the
Speaker 1: best direction website, That's what it was. She was looking
Speaker 1: for directions to both the Berk Shares and Burlington Vermont,
Speaker 1: both awesome places. So later that afternoon, at like one pm,
Speaker 1: she emailed her boyfriend quote, I got your messages, but
Speaker 1: honestly I don't feel like talking too much of anyone.
Speaker 1: I promised to call today though unquote. Also around one
Speaker 1: she made a phone call to enquire about renting a
Speaker 1: condo in UH in Bartlett, New Hampshire. Apparently she had
Speaker 1: vacation there before with her family. The telephone records seemed
Speaker 1: to indicate that the call lasted three minutes UH and
Speaker 1: she did not successfully rent a condo. Mara then called
Speaker 1: a fellow nursing student for reasons unknown, which is my
Speaker 1: favorite unsolved mystery term out. It's unclear if that means
Speaker 1: that Maura connected with the student and the student is
Speaker 1: like refusing to say what they talked about, or if
Speaker 1: the student just never answered. I'm assuming that she just
Speaker 1: never answered. The interviewed the student. The student just said
Speaker 1: that we just talked about crape, nothing important and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly at all, twenty one year old college student girls did.
Speaker 1: Mara emailed the work supervisor of hers at the nursing
Speaker 1: school and also her nursing school faculty advisors and professors,
Speaker 1: saying that she had to leave town for a week
Speaker 1: due to a death in her family, and that she
Speaker 1: would contact them when she returned. However, nobody and her
Speaker 1: family had died, well except her. That's suspicious. It was
Speaker 1: a little suspicious. I don't think I mean earlier, seriously,
Speaker 1: have any you know, lots and lots of people tell
Speaker 1: tell lies to get out of work for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: They call in sick when they're not for like a
Speaker 1: day though. Yeah, yeah, that's a long span of time.
Speaker 1: It is big exaggeration. She just really needed to get away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so then at too she called a number that provides
Speaker 1: a prerecorded information about booking hotels in Vermont, Stowe, Vermont.
Speaker 1: I think it's the East coast. They say, all the
Speaker 1: things they use all vals. Might be let's call it
Speaker 1: somewhere in Vermont. She listened to the information for about
Speaker 1: five minutes, which is a really long time to listen
Speaker 1: to that kind of information. And you know, I've been
Speaker 1: stuck in those telephone trees before. Press one to do this,
Speaker 1: Press two to do that. I press three, crowd it's
Speaker 1: the wrong one. Press nine to go back, nine to
Speaker 1: go back, start over. I mean, we've all been on
Speaker 1: those prerecorded systems where you feel like you're in there forever.
Speaker 1: I just thought it was like the weather service one
Speaker 1: that you can call that says for your area code
Speaker 1: the weather is, and you know, it's just like on
Speaker 1: a minute loop or something. But if it's for booking hotels,
Speaker 1: it might have been listing hotel in an area, so
Speaker 1: she got to navigate through it to find the area
Speaker 1: and then get the list of hotels. Anyway, I don't
Speaker 1: know how relevant this is so, but it may or
Speaker 1: may not be. A few minutes later, at to eighteen,
Speaker 1: she telephoned her boyfriend and left a voicemail that essentially
Speaker 1: said they would talk later, and it was just under
Speaker 1: a minute long. That message, like most voicemails are. Yes.
Speaker 1: In her car, she packed the things that you would
Speaker 1: typically pack on a trip, um, you know, clothes, toiletries,
Speaker 1: college textbooks, all that stuff. I don't take college textbush
Speaker 1: when I travel, well, because you're not a college student. Weird, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's so weird. Yeah, well, well that apparently when her
Speaker 1: room was searched after her disappearance her dorm room, they
Speaker 1: found that all of her belongings were packed in boxes. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, things like the art that was on the
Speaker 1: walls had been removed. It's apparently disputed whether she had
Speaker 1: packed them that day or if they were still packed
Speaker 1: from her recent She had just gotten back from winter break,
Speaker 1: and we talked about this a little bit and debated
Speaker 1: back and forth. It's my feeling that you don't pack
Speaker 1: things up over winter break generally, so changing rooms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's what I was saying when we talked before
Speaker 1: we started, is that I remember kids when I was
Speaker 1: in college who, let's say, sprang for the private dorm
Speaker 1: room and then oh, I can't afford the private dorm
Speaker 1: room anymore. So I've got to go to another room.
Speaker 1: So you've got to you gotta pack it all up
Speaker 1: because you know you're gonna move. I've also known friends,
Speaker 1: whether in college or in their thirties, who move into
Speaker 1: a place and all seemed to take six months to
Speaker 1: unpass live out of boxes forever. So I mean, I
Speaker 1: can see, knowing that she's a twenty one year old
Speaker 1: college you know, I can see any of those being
Speaker 1: very you know, easy answers or plausible. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know that it means it's not it's not clear or
Speaker 1: you know. And Joe keeps saying, I don't know if
Speaker 1: that means a whole lot. I don't know if that's pertinent.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the big mystery around this unsolved mystery, right,
Speaker 1: is that there are a lot of details that we
Speaker 1: have and it's so unclear about what happened or what
Speaker 1: may have maybe pertinently, what may not be pertinent, that
Speaker 1: at this point it just behooves us to everything might
Speaker 1: be we can we can do that. Yeah, And of course,
Speaker 1: of course I've already drawn conclusions about what happened, so
Speaker 1: I know why. And that's why I think that that's
Speaker 1: why he's poopoo every detail you bring up exactly, I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, you're just saying it's I think I know
Speaker 1: what happened. So alright, well well let's let's put your
Speaker 1: your obvious conclusions. Let's we'll talk about So. Then at
Speaker 1: three forty pm, morow withdrew two and eighty dollars from
Speaker 1: an A t M. The footage shows that she was alone,
Speaker 1: at least as far as the footage was concerned. This
Speaker 1: apparently almost emptied out her entire bank account. Of course,
Speaker 1: poor college students, as you've got. Apparently, though there was
Speaker 1: a paycheck that was due shortly. Yeah. She then went
Speaker 1: and purchased about forty dollars worth of alcohol at a
Speaker 1: nearby liquor store. And I love that. That's like a
Speaker 1: like a huge field, right, like nearly forty It's like
Speaker 1: a trip to the liquor store. I could spend a
Speaker 1: lot more dollars or more in liquor store unless you
Speaker 1: buy the little itty bitty onesies that they give you,
Speaker 1: which are stupidly expensive. But at forty bucks, and this
Speaker 1: is interesting, this is suspicious. Actually, she got Bailey's Irish
Speaker 1: Cream Colue vodka and a box of Frenzy one and
Speaker 1: she got all that for forty bucks. I want to
Speaker 1: go shopping at that store. Yeah, I think there's the
Speaker 1: inflation thing. Well there's that too. It was ten years ago.
Speaker 1: As ten years ago, that's a lot of booze for
Speaker 1: forty bucks, that's true. Yeah, maybe that's why she bought
Speaker 1: so much. Maybe it was all at sale and that's
Speaker 1: why she got it. Also, she maybe apparently also closed
Speaker 1: circuit footage shows that she was alone while making these
Speaker 1: purchases as well, important little tiny tidbits. Apparently also at
Speaker 1: some point at that on that day, she obtained a
Speaker 1: Registry of Motor Vehicle accident report form, which they found
Speaker 1: in her car. It was blank. It wasn't like filled
Speaker 1: out or anything like that. Procrastinator and we figured that out. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's not really procrastinating. That's just like
Speaker 1: the day after her father asked her, hey, fill out
Speaker 1: this accident report so I can file an insurance claim.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's fairly timely. Although I think
Speaker 1: that people tend to think that this is significant because
Speaker 1: that's not the kind of behavior that somebody has if
Speaker 1: they're planning to run away. Yeah, you know you're not
Speaker 1: going to file the report if you're just gonna go missing. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Mara then left Amherst, most likely via ninety Interstate ninety
Speaker 1: one north. So I think it's kind of yeah. Then
Speaker 1: she called to check her voicemail at about four thirty,
Speaker 1: which is apparently the last recorded use of her cell phone.
Speaker 1: There's no indication that she had formed informed anybody of
Speaker 1: where she was going at this point. All right, so
Speaker 1: I know as she's headed off to the two to
Speaker 1: the sticks too, with a lot of booze to have
Speaker 1: a party. Maybe sounds like sometime after seven pm. Sometime
Speaker 1: after seven pm in Woodsville, New Hampshire, a resident there
Speaker 1: heard a loud thump outside of her house. Looking outside
Speaker 1: her window, she saw a black Saturn sedan much like
Speaker 1: the one that Maro owned. Was the one owned? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was up against a snowbank along Route one twelve.
Speaker 1: The car was pointing west on the eastbound side of
Speaker 1: the road. Okay, evidence of bad driving, evidence of really
Speaker 1: two days in a row? Yes, so she called us.
Speaker 1: Well it was more like, yeah, yeah, three days in
Speaker 1: a row or something within a week. Yeah, she had
Speaker 1: a real talent for wrecking card. Yeah, she hated that car. Yes,
Speaker 1: she did see further proof that she wanted anyone. You
Speaker 1: know what I think. I think she disappeared and want
Speaker 1: to live in a little island somewhere where they don't
Speaker 1: have cars. Yeah, she just hated cars. She wanted to
Speaker 1: kill them. Yeah. The neighbor who's always unnamed, phoned the
Speaker 1: Gafton County Sheriff's Department, graft Grafton. I don't know why
Speaker 1: I keep leaving out letters trying to pronounce you just
Speaker 1: don't like the letter R today it's true or the
Speaker 1: word letter she did like earlier. Okay, so at is
Speaker 1: when they have the record of this accident report. About
Speaker 1: the same time, another neighbor saw the Saturn and uh
Speaker 1: reported that there was somebody walking around the vehicle and
Speaker 1: saw a third neighbor slash witness pull up alongside the Saturn.
Speaker 1: The third witness was the school bus driver. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was the school bus driver who was returning home and
Speaker 1: he said that he noticed a young woman who was
Speaker 1: bleeding but was cold and shivering. He offered to telephone
Speaker 1: for help. Um she asked some some reports. They pleaded,
Speaker 1: but she asked him to not call the police and
Speaker 1: said that she had already called Triple A, although Triple
Speaker 1: A has no record of any calls. This is compounded
Speaker 1: by the fact that there is no cell phone reception
Speaker 1: in the area, which the resident, of course knew, so
Speaker 1: he went home and phoned the police. His call was
Speaker 1: received by the Sheriff's department at seven forty three pm,
Speaker 1: and he said he was unable to see Mara's car
Speaker 1: while he made the phone call, but did notice several
Speaker 1: cars passing on the road before police arrived. So before
Speaker 1: you go, I wanted to say one thing that I
Speaker 1: do find funny about his description is that she was
Speaker 1: not bleeding, but cold and shivering. Okay, well, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's February in Massachusetts. Massachusetts has But the other thing
Speaker 1: is I've been in a car accident before, have either
Speaker 1: of you. But depends what what what automatically happens. You
Speaker 1: get an adrenal rush and you you you automatically You've
Speaker 1: always got that little bit of a jittery. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's I've you know, I've done I've had close
Speaker 1: calls and you get that rush and you're you're gonna shake.
Speaker 1: So I don't know that the shivering we denote cold. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that it's mostly that you shook up more
Speaker 1: than anything. Now does that mean anything? No, But again,
Speaker 1: this is one of those things that everybody says cold
Speaker 1: and shivering. I'm like, uh no, she just totally spun
Speaker 1: her car around at least a hundred eighty degrees or
Speaker 1: that's just it's just a witness, you know, sort of projecting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you rolled down the window. Who it's cold, therefore
Speaker 1: your cold. Yeah, but anyway, it doesn't it doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 1: But I want to call it out because it's one
Speaker 1: of the Again, it's one of those things everybody says
Speaker 1: she was shivering because she was cold. I'm standing out
Speaker 1: on the side of the road. Know that that's always
Speaker 1: the correct interpretation. Yeah, And this story is so much interpretation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's it's hard to tell also because you know,
Speaker 1: he doesn't say, oh, and she was wearing a tank
Speaker 1: top or oh she was you know, like there's no
Speaker 1: description of like he doesn't ever say and none of
Speaker 1: the reports I've read did he say what she was wearing.
Speaker 1: So that's an interesting little Did he say the thing
Speaker 1: about whether she had the emergency blinkers on or she
Speaker 1: put any flares out or anything like that. Nothing doesn't
Speaker 1: mean if you look at I was able to actually
Speaker 1: get get onto this guy's blog who's done quite a
Speaker 1: bit of investigation into this and that particular little curve,
Speaker 1: that little road there, there's no shoulders, so she was
Speaker 1: in the road. Yeah, you know, and it would have
Speaker 1: if I were me, I would the first thing I
Speaker 1: do is put some flares out. You would, you would
Speaker 1: have flares. I mean, you know, I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: a middle aged man and I don't have flares in Mike,
Speaker 1: but I would put my emergency but I would put
Speaker 1: the blinkers on certainly. Yeah. Okay, Well, I guess it's
Speaker 1: not that relevant anyway, because we know what happened. So
Speaker 1: at seven six, just three minutes after the bus driver phoned,
Speaker 1: and it's it's not actually uh but actually nineteen minutes
Speaker 1: after the first call at But so I guess it's
Speaker 1: significant in that it's it's not said how long it
Speaker 1: took the school bus driver to get from the crash
Speaker 1: to his house. But it doesn't sound like he lives
Speaker 1: very far. It doesn't, but I think he actually lived
Speaker 1: within eyesight of the of the crash. He said he
Speaker 1: couldn't see it from his house. Yeah, so I read
Speaker 1: a different account where he said he'd actually went home
Speaker 1: to his home and parked his school bus in such
Speaker 1: a way that he was able to actually look back
Speaker 1: down the road and see the colle You couldn't see
Speaker 1: it from the house, but maybe couldn't see it from that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's just I think it would be interesting to know
Speaker 1: the time in between. Well, it was about twenty minutes apparently,
Speaker 1: I guess, because a lot of people have said, like,
Speaker 1: how could she possibly disappear? Because because she was there
Speaker 1: and then just a few minutes later that the police arrived,
Speaker 1: how could she had disappeared at that time? But now
Speaker 1: it was more like twenty minutes. I guess. There's also
Speaker 1: a further question here, right of like, he's a school
Speaker 1: bus driver. This is a poor, like twenty one year
Speaker 1: old girl shivering having a car crash. Why in the
Speaker 1: world did he not say, Hey, come with me, we'll
Speaker 1: call the cops and then we'll come back and wait together.
Speaker 1: You're obviously cold, I can, you know, like you can
Speaker 1: because she's a one year old college student and it's
Speaker 1: a creepy old dude in a school bus. I got,
Speaker 1: you know, It's just kind of one of those like
Speaker 1: I've I've had what would seemed like perfectly nice people
Speaker 1: pull over when I've broken down, and you know, I
Speaker 1: was with somebody else at the time, and they're like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you want some help. I don't have a phone,
Speaker 1: but I could take you somewhere to call. Hey, that'd
Speaker 1: be great. Well, I can only take one of you
Speaker 1: because I only have room for one. No, yeah, thanks, fair,
Speaker 1: that's fair. But you know, I guess for me, like
Speaker 1: he doesn't even mention like I offered. You should have
Speaker 1: offered at least it would have been fine if she
Speaker 1: said no, but well maybe offered to help maybe, And
Speaker 1: maybe he did and she turned it down and just
Speaker 1: didn't get written down and copied and tasted the internet.
Speaker 1: But it is it's a it's a little interesting that
Speaker 1: she was out in the road and there was there
Speaker 1: was a house very close by. There were lots of
Speaker 1: houses and she could have walked up to any of
Speaker 1: them and just you know, asked to ask them to
Speaker 1: call a tow truck or whatever, and she didn't do that.
Speaker 1: So that's that's a bit of a puzzler. Yes, anyway,
Speaker 1: have her Hill police officer arrives on the scene. No
Speaker 1: one was inside or around the car. The car's windshield
Speaker 1: had been cracked on the driver's side and both air
Speaker 1: bags had deployed. The car was locked. That's in significant.
Speaker 1: That's definitely significant to me. Definitely inside and outside the car.
Speaker 1: He discovered red stains that looked like they were made
Speaker 1: be red wine. Uh. And he did find the damaged
Speaker 1: box of wine Franzia on the right on the rear seat.
Speaker 1: In addition, he found a triple A card that was
Speaker 1: issued to her blank crash report form. Oh, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: there were more than one. There were a few blank
Speaker 1: crash rooms. She expected to have multiple um gloves. Compact
Speaker 1: discs makeup just two sets of map Quest directions, one
Speaker 1: to Burlington and the other to Stowe, both Vermont uh
Speaker 1: Mara's favorite stuffed animal, and significantly not without Peril, a
Speaker 1: book about mountain climbing in the White Mountains in New Hampshire,
Speaker 1: which were like twenty miles away from where she crashed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: apparently she and her she and her dad likes to
Speaker 1: like to hike in and they did a lot of
Speaker 1: that in her childhood teenage years. Yeah. So Maura's debit
Speaker 1: and credit cards were missing along with her cell phone,
Speaker 1: and nobody's ever seen or had use of them since
Speaker 1: her disappearance. That's significant, I agree. Somewhere between eight and
Speaker 1: eight thirty, it's unclear. A contractor who was returning home
Speaker 1: from work in Franconia, Franconia, Franconia, fr Franconia, saw said
Speaker 1: he saw a young person moving quickly on foot eastbound
Speaker 1: on Route one, about four or five miles east of
Speaker 1: where mars vehicle was discovered. He said that the young person,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how he knew it was a
Speaker 1: young person, but he did, was wearing jeans, a dark
Speaker 1: coat and a light colored hood. He didn't report it
Speaker 1: to the police because he was confused about the dates
Speaker 1: and didn't think it was significant. So he reported about
Speaker 1: three months later that he'd spotted the young person the
Speaker 1: night that Mar disiparted. Yeah, so I don't think that
Speaker 1: means okay, so I remember seeing that this guy. Everybody
Speaker 1: says he was confused about the dates because he evidently
Speaker 1: didn't know that the search for her was going on
Speaker 1: right away, and he was thinking, oh, it was a
Speaker 1: couple of days later. But I got on I got
Speaker 1: on Google and started looking at this area and then
Speaker 1: looked at the roads and went, okay, well this is
Speaker 1: about where she crashed. And then we track four or
Speaker 1: five miles east on that road, which was the wrong
Speaker 1: way to go if you're trying to get to any
Speaker 1: major roads, because uh and I and for the life
Speaker 1: of me, now I can't remember which interstates it is
Speaker 1: that kind of run in parallel north, But she was
Speaker 1: taking the long way to get to one, when if
Speaker 1: she had continued to travel west for or five miles,
Speaker 1: it would have got her to the major interstates. So
Speaker 1: it's really strange to me that she would have backtracked
Speaker 1: that direction, I guess. On the one hand, I do
Speaker 1: want to remind you about math quest in the early
Speaker 1: two thousands and how really effective their their directions were
Speaker 1: got some people killed. I mean, it was pretty awful.
Speaker 1: But I think it's a valid point. Yes, I think
Speaker 1: it's a valid point. I also do want to point
Speaker 1: out that this is insignificant in my mind, because she
Speaker 1: interacted with somebody at like seven thirty, right, and then
Speaker 1: at eight was sited four or five miles away, which
Speaker 1: is a significant amount of Yeah, there's somebody to cover
Speaker 1: in that amount of time. He had eight minute mile. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she would have been hauling, but half an hour gotten
Speaker 1: four or five miles. That's a good point. And the
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that there were probably plenty
Speaker 1: of young people out on foot on that road that night.
Speaker 1: I mean not lots, not, but I mean it's possible
Speaker 1: that there was some kid from one house to the next.
Speaker 1: So so I don't think we debunked that theory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just before eight pm of E M S and a
Speaker 1: firetruck arrived to clear the scene, and by eight pm
Speaker 1: the car had been towed to a local garage and
Speaker 1: at about nine pm the responding officer left the scene.
Speaker 1: A rag that had been part of Mara's emergency roadside
Speaker 1: kit was discovered stuffed in the Saturn's muffler pipe, which
Speaker 1: is often a throwaway. But I stands that just stands
Speaker 1: out to me so much, and I just don't know
Speaker 1: the cause for something like that. I don't know why
Speaker 1: somebody would do something like that. Well, yeah, her dad
Speaker 1: actually sheds a little light on this. He's yeah, he does. Um.
Speaker 1: He said that I read on one side that there
Speaker 1: was a blown cylinder in the car, which I don't
Speaker 1: think it possible because if you actually blast a whole
Speaker 1: cylinder out of your engineer engine. You've got a bad
Speaker 1: ring or blown head gass or something like that. But anyway,
Speaker 1: so it could have been the ring, but it was
Speaker 1: smoking apparently really badly, and her dad was like saying, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's going to make a kind of a
Speaker 1: target for the for the pope. Pope. So he advised
Speaker 1: her because she wasn't doing other things that we're making
Speaker 1: exactly calling them, because she was crashing all over. So
Speaker 1: he advised her to stuff a rag up the tailpipe
Speaker 1: to conceal all the smoke. Which that seems to be
Speaker 1: like kind of a bad idea. That sounds like the
Speaker 1: worst idea I ever heard. Well, you know, I mean
Speaker 1: the world is full of bad ideas. Come on, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: this this reminds this makes me think of Beverly Hills
Speaker 1: cop with the banana and the tailpipe. Yeah okay, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna see the smoke coming out of your tailpipe
Speaker 1: because your car's not going to run, yeah, exactly, So
Speaker 1: it's you know, I I don't know how good of
Speaker 1: advice that it is. Doesn't sound that great to me,
Speaker 1: but anyway, that's why he said that he was insisting
Speaker 1: on buy her a new car because he felt like
Speaker 1: her existing car was not going to continue running a
Speaker 1: whole lot longer. Yeah, I bet so. The following day, UM,
Speaker 1: a bolo was issued for Mara in all of the
Speaker 1: counties surrounding the crash site that she could have on
Speaker 1: Lookout Beyond Lookout. Yeah. On February to days after her
Speaker 1: father Fred found out about the search, he arrived to
Speaker 1: help with the search. I guess or something. He came
Speaker 1: to the area where the Sheriff's department was searching for Mara.
Speaker 1: Search dogs were sent to the crash site and followed
Speaker 1: her sense that they got off of a glove for
Speaker 1: about a hundred feet but lost it. After that, police
Speaker 1: stated that they believed that Mara had come to the
Speaker 1: area to run away or commit suicide. UM and her
Speaker 1: family and friends have of course denied this. From the
Speaker 1: first suggestion. A lot of other people suggest that perhaps
Speaker 1: her credit card fraud in conjunction with the two car
Speaker 1: crashes in life less than a week UM and all
Speaker 1: three being in less than three months, point to maybe
Speaker 1: a serious problem with alcohol, and her family of course
Speaker 1: denies that as well. Her family has been a very
Speaker 1: admin about painting Mara as this perfect innocent angel figure,
Speaker 1: which seems to have actually maybe been quite dead intrimental
Speaker 1: to the actual search. Again, we'll get into that a
Speaker 1: little bit later. Towards the end of two thousand four,
Speaker 1: apparently a man gave Mara's father a rusty, stained knife
Speaker 1: that had belonged to his brother. Uh the man's brother,
Speaker 1: not Fred's brother, who apparently was a criminal and had
Speaker 1: lived less than a mile from where Mara's car was discovered.
Speaker 1: His brother and his brother's girlfriend were said to have
Speaker 1: acted strangely after mars disappearance. Creepy, creepy, but didn't did
Speaker 1: Mara's father not follow up on this? I think that
Speaker 1: he was My understanding that he handed the knife over
Speaker 1: to authorities and they tested it and there was no
Speaker 1: blood on there. Yeah. In late two thousand five, Mara's
Speaker 1: father filed a lawsuit against many of the law enforcement
Speaker 1: agencies that had been involved with the investigation, with the
Speaker 1: aim to find find out what was going on in
Speaker 1: the files with the case. Since it's an ongoing investigation,
Speaker 1: many of them have not been made public. Of course,
Speaker 1: you wanted to know what they knew, which is I
Speaker 1: guess kind of fair yeah, I would. In also in
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, the New Hampshire League of Investigators,
Speaker 1: which is a thing, which is an awesome group, an
Speaker 1: awesome group name. Yeah, I know, I would call myself
Speaker 1: like the League of Justice. Yeah. I don't know why
Speaker 1: we haven't called cops or something like that. That was
Speaker 1: one of the names that we we threw, you know,
Speaker 1: on the cutting room floor when we came with the
Speaker 1: name of this show. Yeah. Yeah, Actually I was still
Speaker 1: voting for Danger Probe, I remember. Yeah, yeah, We're glad
Speaker 1: we didn't go with anything. The New Hampshire League of
Speaker 1: Investigators is made up of ten retired police officers and detectives. They,
Speaker 1: in conjunction with the molly Bish Foundation, started working on
Speaker 1: Mara's case in in two thousand and six. Tom Shamshack
Speaker 1: Sam ham Shack, a former police chief and member of
Speaker 1: the Licensed Private Detectives Association of Massachusetts, says, I quote,
Speaker 1: it appears that this is something beyond a mere missing
Speaker 1: person's case. Something ominous could have happened here. In October
Speaker 1: of two thousand and six, volunteers led two day search
Speaker 1: within a few mile radius of where Mara's vehicle was found.
Speaker 1: Creepy alert in a closet of an a frame house
Speaker 1: quite close to where the crash was. Cadaver dogs are
Speaker 1: these dead dogs, the dogs that look for cadavers. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a drug dog which is trained to catch the
Speaker 1: smell of drugs. Yeah, there's a dog that is trained
Speaker 1: to react to d comp human demo. So they had
Speaker 1: a bunch of cadaver dogs with them on this search,
Speaker 1: and in the closet of an a frame house, the
Speaker 1: cadaver dogs allegedly went quote bonkers unquote identifying possible presence
Speaker 1: of human remains. Did they bother opening because I read
Speaker 1: this one too, Did they bother to open the closet door? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was in the closet and there was carpet there,
Speaker 1: and they cut some of the carpet and sent it
Speaker 1: off for analysis. But I never could find out if
Speaker 1: there were any results from that, which is creepy in
Speaker 1: and of itself. You know what really actually, what really
Speaker 1: makes me angry is that every source that I found
Speaker 1: that talked about that said and waiting for results in
Speaker 1: two thousand six. You guys, it's been like more than
Speaker 1: six years, and there's never any anything that says what
Speaker 1: they found. I mean, I would like to Okay, you
Speaker 1: know what, it turned out a raccoon got shut in
Speaker 1: the closet and died, I would be so much happier.
Speaker 1: That's totally in the well found. Yeah, because now I'm
Speaker 1: just freaked out about mar Murray being in the carpeted
Speaker 1: closet of an a frame that's terrifying. Every so significant
Speaker 1: rewards somewhere to the tune of seventy five thousand dollars
Speaker 1: have been offered really for just information on this case.
Speaker 1: So far, nothing but the only person that knows it's
Speaker 1: a person that well anyway, and I'll get into that later.
Speaker 1: You really are just railroading this whole thing. There. There
Speaker 1: are some hinky things going on here though. Okay, here's
Speaker 1: the cast list of this story. Character cast well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I hesitate to call it cast of characters
Speaker 1: because they're not characters are more fun than these people.
Speaker 1: There is a big cast, you know, not to be
Speaker 1: smirch or anything, but there's a cast of people. The
Speaker 1: first of which is of course, of Fred Murray. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The story that we just told um involves this character Fred,
Speaker 1: who's the caring father who was involved in his daughter's
Speaker 1: life at every turn, and it seems like it turns
Speaker 1: out that may not actually be the case. And now, granted,
Speaker 1: all of this is Internet information. I don't know the
Speaker 1: guy personally, and I don't want to besmirch the name
Speaker 1: of somebody. I generally feel that people are good. But
Speaker 1: here's what the Internet has to say about it. Well,
Speaker 1: and be careful about this, because the Internet is known
Speaker 1: for circulating like live. Yeah. Absolutely, And that's what I
Speaker 1: want to do is I want to put a little
Speaker 1: disclaimer on this right that says, this is what the
Speaker 1: Internet says, but you know, whether it's true or not.
Speaker 1: I have I don't have a good idea aside from
Speaker 1: my earlier mention of the high probability of him lying
Speaker 1: about what he and Marrow were doing two days previous
Speaker 1: to her disappearance, the car shopping. Why do you say
Speaker 1: that's high probability. Oh, we talked about this a little
Speaker 1: bit because nobody else could confirm that that's why he
Speaker 1: was there. Well yeah, but still that that doesn't make
Speaker 1: it a high probability is lying. It's just okay, Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's odd. Let's let's call it that. It's actually
Speaker 1: didn't mention it to anybody but but again, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean I personally when I when I go get
Speaker 1: a new car, I don't usually tell people just show
Speaker 1: up with a new car. Are also not a year
Speaker 1: old girl. I mean, from my experience, my friends who
Speaker 1: purchased cars recently, you're in college or whatever, that's all
Speaker 1: they wanted to talk about was how they were so
Speaker 1: excited that they were getting a new car, or how
Speaker 1: they were so annoyed that they had to buy a
Speaker 1: new car. That's like a thing that people, young people
Speaker 1: talk about often. That notwithstanding, uh, he apparently refused to
Speaker 1: be interviewed by the police for nearly two years, and
Speaker 1: when he finally did come in for questioning, he brought
Speaker 1: two lawyers with him, which, you know, bringing two lawyers
Speaker 1: with you to be interviewed in and of itself not
Speaker 1: so that's fine, whatever, do what you feel like you
Speaker 1: have to do to protect yourself. But waiting two years
Speaker 1: to be interviewed about the disappearance of your daughter by
Speaker 1: police during an investigation, and then bringing two lawyers, you know,
Speaker 1: it's all these like little tidbits of like if that
Speaker 1: had been the only thing, then it would have been
Speaker 1: like a tiny little like drink red flag, right, you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of flags you put in your drinks. Whereas
Speaker 1: like added to some of the other stuff that may
Speaker 1: or may not be true about him, just kind of
Speaker 1: paints this overall picture of questioning ability, questionability, questioning his character.
Speaker 1: So the Internet also tells me, and again please take
Speaker 1: this with the disclaimer that I don't know if this
Speaker 1: is true or not, but it tells me that he
Speaker 1: may have lied about what else happened on that weekend,
Speaker 1: and there's no details about what that means. But it
Speaker 1: also tells me that upon a search of his things
Speaker 1: by the police, photos of young women from his family
Speaker 1: were found in porno magazines. What's what's all about that? Kidding? Now? Now,
Speaker 1: when you say photos of young women in his family
Speaker 1: were found in magazines, does that mean that they were
Speaker 1: polaroids or snapshots that were stuck in magazines? Yeah? Okay,
Speaker 1: not like he had made his own home gross magazine. Okay, No,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure that's creepy pressed neatly
Speaker 1: in the folds of porno magazine was a snapshot of
Speaker 1: a niece. Uh, you know, that's an odd bookmark. But
Speaker 1: this particular little factor it happen well, and that's exactly
Speaker 1: it is that this guy, James Renner, who is kind
Speaker 1: of he's he's doing a blog. Many of you probably
Speaker 1: know about him. He's a writing a blog and writing
Speaker 1: a book about the mar Murray disappearance. He's an investigative
Speaker 1: reporter who does a lot of this kind of investigation stuff.
Speaker 1: And he and Fred apparently have a bit of a beef. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it sounds like they don't get along. They don't get
Speaker 1: along super well. And well, frankly, if if our Fred
Speaker 1: and when we were putting this kind of stuff out
Speaker 1: on the internet about me, I would be a little
Speaker 1: pissy about the whole. Yeah. Rendered While he seems to
Speaker 1: have good intentions, some of his methods of going about things,
Speaker 1: and this is my my attempt to say this the
Speaker 1: best way possible are not necessarily the best He does
Speaker 1: some things that and the way he writes, the tone,
Speaker 1: that's the word I'm looking for. The tone and the
Speaker 1: perspective that he takes on things are very accusatory. Well,
Speaker 1: he's an author, that's you know. That's really the big
Speaker 1: part of it, right, is that he's an author and
Speaker 1: he's writing a book to sell. And that's fine. I
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything reprehensible about that, Um, And I
Speaker 1: think that he's kind of become this go to source
Speaker 1: for the mar Murita's parents because he's actively investigating it
Speaker 1: and also putting out the information that he's finding versus
Speaker 1: like the police. You are, it's a cold case, but
Speaker 1: there it is an open investigation. It's hard to tell, Um. Well,
Speaker 1: but what the thing is is that when I read
Speaker 1: his stuff and I read the stance he takes out it.
Speaker 1: Let's let's let's compare him to Ethan Brown, who we
Speaker 1: talked about, talked to you for the Jefferson Date, David's
Speaker 1: eighth story. He was he was very removed. He was
Speaker 1: at intimate interactions with people, but he kept removed. He
Speaker 1: kept his personal feelings out of it. He would say
Speaker 1: this seemed weird to me, But he didn't seem to
Speaker 1: get so involved and wrapped up and take a personal
Speaker 1: stance on it. Yeah, whereas Renter kind of doesn't see
Speaker 1: to be able to hold that that separation. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like I remember when I was investigating the Door
Speaker 1: of the Arnold story, and I go out on the
Speaker 1: internet and I'd go to some of these boards where
Speaker 1: people were talking about it, you know, and I'd watched
Speaker 1: these posts go by, you know, and and and watch
Speaker 1: these people convince themselves. For example, the Dorothy's cases, she
Speaker 1: was being horribly abused by her family. There's never been
Speaker 1: a shred of evidence of support that, but I watched
Speaker 1: these these people's comments get more and more intense about
Speaker 1: poor Dorothy and the horror, the horror that her family
Speaker 1: was inflicting at her. It starts out as the family
Speaker 1: is kind of poking a little fun at her, and
Speaker 1: pretty soon they're just totally treating her like dirt. It's like, dude,
Speaker 1: there's not a shred of evidence ready this, yeah, and
Speaker 1: this is what kind of what this reminds me. So
Speaker 1: when I just so that's you know, that's one of
Speaker 1: the good points to make is that it is the
Speaker 1: internet and it's hard to tell. And another another point
Speaker 1: to they searched his things and found photos of family
Speaker 1: women in Porto max. To the best of my knowledge,
Speaker 1: there's no there was never any reason for the police
Speaker 1: to search the father's stuff. They went out and he
Speaker 1: didn't even live in town. He lived a distance away,
Speaker 1: and he was never a person of interests as far
Speaker 1: as I know, in this whole story. Yeah, it's hard
Speaker 1: to tell. Again, you know, it's hard to tell because
Speaker 1: since none of the police reports have really been released,
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell what they have and have not
Speaker 1: done all of that sort of stuff. Apparently, Also, there's
Speaker 1: a rumor floating around that Fred told his friends and
Speaker 1: Mara's friends not to talk to people who are writing
Speaker 1: a book about the disappearance, Jeremy Renner, James mr. Runner.
Speaker 1: But also they he apparently told Mar's friends what to
Speaker 1: say to the police as well. Now, the one thing
Speaker 1: that I do want to say, and this is kind
Speaker 1: of in defensive Fred, is I've read accounts from families
Speaker 1: that have had children disappear, uh and and there are
Speaker 1: cases where people have realized what a political game they
Speaker 1: have to play with the news media and with people
Speaker 1: in general. And so they very methodically stage things and
Speaker 1: present things and say, we need to put this out here,
Speaker 1: and we need to hold this back, we need to
Speaker 1: work through this process. And it's very calculated. And the
Speaker 1: problem is is while that works in the beginning, this
Speaker 1: very calculated approach to keep the story alive, to keep
Speaker 1: it in people's minds, and to help spur the investigation,
Speaker 1: it also in hindsight, after it all kind of washes
Speaker 1: out and people take another look at it, that behavior
Speaker 1: then really reflects poorly on you, because it there's a
Speaker 1: lot of inconsistencies between what you would expect a father's
Speaker 1: behavior of his daughter who has disappeared, conflicting with the
Speaker 1: behavior of somebody who is taking it and just segmenting
Speaker 1: and compartmentalizing and putting it all in order for presentations.
Speaker 1: And so I can see both sides of the coin
Speaker 1: where he's trying to keep things going, but at the
Speaker 1: same time, he's knowing that if I just put it
Speaker 1: all out there, then the whole thing is done and
Speaker 1: there's nothing to keep people looking into this story and
Speaker 1: keep public awareness of it. Sure. Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: a fair point. Um. Let's move on to Billy Rush,
Speaker 1: the next cast member. Yeah, he was Mara's boyfriend. Many
Speaker 1: accounts say that they were engaged, they were not. Apparently,
Speaker 1: in fact, the relationship was on the rocks and Billy
Speaker 1: was cheating on Mara, and in fact she was cheating
Speaker 1: on him with the assistant track coach of hers and
Speaker 1: at least and apparently maybe even taking part in quote
Speaker 1: track Team Orgies unquote, which I think is just dumb.
Speaker 1: So what's the source of all this stuff anyway, Well,
Speaker 1: there's actually a couple of sources of this. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of substantiated around and in fact, the assistant
Speaker 1: track coach thing is in fact true, but it's not
Speaker 1: clear that it was actually her cheating on Billy. Well. Well,
Speaker 1: and this is actually the next person I'm going to
Speaker 1: talk about. Yeah, but according to apparently they broke up
Speaker 1: over a summer and had recently gotten back together, and
Speaker 1: also apparently Billy was maybe not such a nice guy. Again,
Speaker 1: these are you know, it's just like, so it's such
Speaker 1: a mishmash of like he said, she said, and these
Speaker 1: are these these this this so sounds like college girl
Speaker 1: caddie rumors. Oh my god, you will believe that slot
Speaker 1: she was sleeping with the track coach and then she
Speaker 1: was passed around with all the guys on the team.
Speaker 1: That is just so weird. And I've read that in accounts.
Speaker 1: It's really come on. So the interesting thing is actually
Speaker 1: all of that information comes from her ex boyfriend slash
Speaker 1: assistant track coach. Really yeah, okay, he's actually the one. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So well, let's just like let's let's let's have it.
Speaker 1: Let's let's jump right in. His name is hoss Bag Daddy,
Speaker 1: and he was the he was the assistant track coach
Speaker 1: at U Mass apparently, and apparently they were seeing each
Speaker 1: other while she and Billy were broken up. Uh. He
Speaker 1: says that she was fairly promiscuous, that she was sleeping
Speaker 1: with him, but also many other members of the track team,
Speaker 1: but that didn't keep him from liking her, liking her,
Speaker 1: loving her, he says, loving her, I think, he says,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like at the very end, it's almost
Speaker 1: an afterthought, you know, he talks about how much he
Speaker 1: loves her, and you know, how great they were together
Speaker 1: and how happy and strong she was, and then also like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true that she was sleeping with other people, but
Speaker 1: like that's fine, which you know, I think is a
Speaker 1: fair thing to say. In college, it's it's okay to say.
Speaker 1: How old was he? Do? You know? Is early twenties
Speaker 1: early so he's kind of in the same democratic Yeah, obviously,
Speaker 1: he you know, I mean, it just it depends on
Speaker 1: the relationship up if you're really serious about somebody, and
Speaker 1: obviously that's not going to play. Perhaps they weren't. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think he was serious about her. So, you know,
Speaker 1: So Hoss was interviewed by a few different people and
Speaker 1: claimed that he didn't actually even know that Mara had
Speaker 1: a father. Her father and mother were divorced, so I'll
Speaker 1: throw that out there. He he actually thought that perhaps
Speaker 1: the father was dead, that he had never heard Mara
Speaker 1: talk about her father before, which is again another little
Speaker 1: like earworm. There's so many tiny little earworms. Well, you know.
Speaker 1: But the thing about it is, it sounds to me
Speaker 1: like he and he and Mara got together for one
Speaker 1: thing and one thing only. I doubt that they spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time. I actually it sounds like some
Speaker 1: reports that they actually did spend some time together. There
Speaker 1: were many moments where they were just kind of hanging out,
Speaker 1: and she in fact confessed a couple of things to him.
Speaker 1: She they had been spending the summer together, and she
Speaker 1: went to visit him over the summer, and then once
Speaker 1: school started again, she became kind of distant, you know,
Speaker 1: of course, as all his account, but she became kind
Speaker 1: of stint and finally said, oh, actually Billy and I
Speaker 1: got back together. It sounded like Billy was perhaps being
Speaker 1: a little demanding the whole, like I need you here
Speaker 1: at this time, and you need to be only doing
Speaker 1: the things but I want you to do. And at
Speaker 1: one moment, she confessed to Hoss that, um, she hated
Speaker 1: her life at U Mass and wished that she could
Speaker 1: quote just disappear, and Hoss recalls reacting to finding out
Speaker 1: about her disappearance with a holy crap, maybe she did it. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I immediately and I had I had only seen some
Speaker 1: of the kind of overview accounts of him. But I
Speaker 1: can't help but immediately get that Bra sent feel from this.
Speaker 1: And and by Bra, I mean, hey, Bra, what's going
Speaker 1: on the bro? Yeah? That bro, That that college bro
Speaker 1: who couldn't leave after he got out. You know, he
Speaker 1: didn't want to lead the fraternity line if it Hey bro,
Speaker 1: let's like go do this and it's totally awesome. We're
Speaker 1: gonna hang out with these chicks. Like there's that weird
Speaker 1: college guy mentality that there are men that are in
Speaker 1: their thirties that still can't get over there. Yeah I
Speaker 1: can just I really just from the way this is
Speaker 1: put together and the things that he says, I get that, well,
Speaker 1: I was a good dude. And we had a thing
Speaker 1: and so we just like hung out and you can
Speaker 1: fight it in me And I don't know why I'm
Speaker 1: getting a surfer dude, the lilt in my voice, but
Speaker 1: it just I really get a just I don't buy it.
Speaker 1: Yeah really, I mean that's that's just all the pois
Speaker 1: down to. I don't really buy this guy's stuff. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: I kind of had that same like, um fame crashing vibe.
Speaker 1: So he like knew somebody who was famous for a
Speaker 1: kind of tragic reason, and he was just like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's the same girls who like, you know, some girl
Speaker 1: dies horribly in a car crash and then like all
Speaker 1: of the girls at her school, like we were best friends,
Speaker 1: are so much. We hug out in home room twice
Speaker 1: and then you find out on Facebook they ripped on
Speaker 1: her constantly. Her. Yeah, so you're taking old hoss here.
Speaker 1: It is just basically full of it, and he's lying
Speaker 1: about their their passion sexual relationship. I believe that they
Speaker 1: there was probably something there, yeah, but I don't know
Speaker 1: if it was as much. And you know, I also
Speaker 1: don't know if he if she ever really said I
Speaker 1: just wish I could disappear. She um she really should
Speaker 1: have kept a diary and left it in the car.
Speaker 1: So much easier next time, keep a diary. The next
Speaker 1: character is Kate Marcos Mark Hoppolis. Thank you. That's how
Speaker 1: I would have said it. That was a good way
Speaker 1: to say it. Yeah, So Kate was apparently friends with Mara.
Speaker 1: She and Fred and Mara had dinner a few days.
Speaker 1: She was at the dinner that they had on the seventh.
Speaker 1: It must have they had a group and which after
Speaker 1: what she took forr dad's car and then crashed it.
Speaker 1: And Kate was actually really also at the party that
Speaker 1: Marrow was at right before she crashed her dad's car.
Speaker 1: Kate said that she had no knowledge about Mars plans,
Speaker 1: which I think is fair. Apparently of note, however, and
Speaker 1: I say apparently because I just think this is so
Speaker 1: sad that this keeps getting brought up. But Kate's father
Speaker 1: spent five years in jail for attempting to blow up
Speaker 1: his neighbor with a homemade bomb. Stable behavior, five years
Speaker 1: in jail. Yeah, he admitted to the crime and served
Speaker 1: five years. She claims that he was wrongfully imprisoned, and
Speaker 1: did she he was innocent and didn't do it. I
Speaker 1: think I think Daddy took the rap, So I mean
Speaker 1: and I think that I think it's fair to say that, like,
Speaker 1: those are two pretty extreme things for one person to have,
Speaker 1: and for one person to have both of those things
Speaker 1: is like, you know, the odds of that are so
Speaker 1: million to one. Right to like have a close friend
Speaker 1: who disappears under highly mysterious circumstances. Oh and also to
Speaker 1: have a father who tried to blow up his neighbor
Speaker 1: with a homemade bomb, you know, I think, but I don't.
Speaker 1: I just can't see a connection. You know, I just
Speaker 1: don't see a connection there. But with everything else with
Speaker 1: this story, it's something to grab onto and try and
Speaker 1: flesh it out and try and draw some Freudian conclusion
Speaker 1: to the whole thing. Exactly. Yeah, So did Ma ever
Speaker 1: like asked to meet the daddy and so she could
Speaker 1: quiz him about bomb making techniques as far as I know.
Speaker 1: Next is Jeff Williams, a k a. Police Chief Williams
Speaker 1: or former police chief Williams. This was actually the guy
Speaker 1: who responded to that first crash where Mara ran into
Speaker 1: the guide rail with Daddy's I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was new, but with and he apparently has a bit
Speaker 1: of a record of messing up. According to the Internet,
Speaker 1: again because that's the only place you can get information
Speaker 1: these days, he crashed his motorcycle into a truck. Then later,
Speaker 1: after a bit of a high speed chase, he was
Speaker 1: pulled over and charged with a driving while intoxicated and
Speaker 1: was of course released from his duty as police chief.
Speaker 1: Also apparently, of note, the car he was driving belongs
Speaker 1: to a woman who is not his wife. And Fred
Speaker 1: was actually the first person to call Mr Williams's character
Speaker 1: into question, and he he said that he wondered aloud
Speaker 1: to the media if perhaps Mr Williams had not been
Speaker 1: lying about how intoxicated Marrow was on the night of
Speaker 1: that initial crash. So r is Fred saying that Mr
Speaker 1: Williams this whole thing. Mr Williams, well he's he's the
Speaker 1: guy that responded after the guardrail crash. So so did
Speaker 1: Williams say, Oh, she was smashed, but I just let
Speaker 1: her go. I know he Williams didn't remember if you
Speaker 1: he actually drove her to her father's hotel room. And
Speaker 1: you know, in my mind I see a like kind
Speaker 1: of like a good guy cops situation here where I
Speaker 1: like if she was drunk. He was like, listen, like,
Speaker 1: you're dumb, but I'm not going to charge you here.
Speaker 1: Let's get you to your father, you know, Like he's trying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was trying to be helpful. So I think it's
Speaker 1: silly that Fred was that. Fred Murray is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: calling his character in a question. I don't get that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with that. The next cast or the next
Speaker 1: character cast member is the mysterious caller, which I've actually
Speaker 1: named the Mysterious Caller, and there's no actual name attached
Speaker 1: to this person. Apparently, during the course of the investigation,
Speaker 1: a police officer discovered that somebody had called Mara's phone
Speaker 1: in the late afternoon of the ninth, which is the
Speaker 1: day that Mara disappeared, and the call came from within
Speaker 1: a twenty two mile radius of the London Dairy, New
Speaker 1: Hampshire cell phone tower. There's apparently only one there. How
Speaker 1: big is London's quite small, and this has caused a
Speaker 1: lot of people to speculate that she was planning to
Speaker 1: meet somebody in New Hampshire. Do you know how far
Speaker 1: away that is from where her accident was. It's like
Speaker 1: a hundred miles, a hundred and sixteen miles south and
Speaker 1: that's that's south. Yeah, okay, that's right on the border
Speaker 1: with New Hampshire and not Massachusetts but Vermont. And she
Speaker 1: went to school in Amherst, right Massachusetts, which is it's
Speaker 1: almost west where London west of London area southwest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so from Amherst to Woodsville is like like pretty north.
Speaker 1: It's just like a solid north path with a slight.
Speaker 1: It's no. But yeah, Also, I guess I've note um
Speaker 1: the Google Maps, if you're going to drive from Woodsville
Speaker 1: to London Dairy, you have to take one twelve east,
Speaker 1: except she was going the opposite direction. She was driving
Speaker 1: away from it. Okay, well this is just where she
Speaker 1: was going west right one twelve, that's the assumption. But yeah,
Speaker 1: car was her car was faced east on the west
Speaker 1: right yet, but that's a giant detour Londonderry. That almost
Speaker 1: sounds like I got a new cell phone and I
Speaker 1: called my friend and they didn't answer, and that's why
Speaker 1: nobody knows what this phone number is. Yeah, I think,
Speaker 1: okay that I just counted that right off. Okay, never mind. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't even worry about it because Londonderry is not
Speaker 1: that far from Amherst or where she where her parents lived.
Speaker 1: And it's quite conceivable she knew somebody who lived in
Speaker 1: Londonderry who randomly called. So the next character is Um
Speaker 1: maybe one of the creepiest. Yeah, this guy. I gotta
Speaker 1: be honest with you. I couldn't watch the YouTube videos.
Speaker 1: I did not watch. I knew that it was going
Speaker 1: to be a bad idea. So in two thousand and twelve,
Speaker 1: the eight year anniversary of Mara's disappearance, a what I
Speaker 1: can only describe as mentally unstabled man Um posted some
Speaker 1: videos to YouTube taunting the family of the Murray family
Speaker 1: and also claiming to have information related to the case.
Speaker 1: In one of the videos, he's just laughing, which is terrifying. Uh.
Speaker 1: And one of the other videos he shows a ski
Speaker 1: lift pass um that was dated two days prior to
Speaker 1: Marrow's disappearance from a ski resort that was very close
Speaker 1: to where her car was found. And that is I
Speaker 1: guess of note, because who keeps he passes for eight years? Well?
Speaker 1: And and is the thing is I watched them and
Speaker 1: I I it's a The laughing video is just over
Speaker 1: a minute long, and I I skimmed the thing like
Speaker 1: you know, I paused, he started giggling or whatever it
Speaker 1: is he's laughing, and I skimmed across it and it
Speaker 1: is just him in a darkened room and you can
Speaker 1: barely make out his features and there's, you know, the
Speaker 1: computer monitor reflection his glasses. You can't tell who this
Speaker 1: dude is. And that's the one that's just titled Happy Anniversary. Yeah.
Speaker 1: At the very ends is Happy Anniversary fighting. The one
Speaker 1: that's the ski passes like fifteen seconds long. And then
Speaker 1: he also posted another weird one, which I swear is
Speaker 1: taken out of a movie, and all it is is
Speaker 1: rain coming down on a windshield with the wind shear
Speaker 1: wipers with orchestral music in the background. And at first
Speaker 1: it's actually kind of beautiful because you're listening to it,
Speaker 1: you're seeing the whippers. This is really well made. And
Speaker 1: then I'm realizing it's for an actual movie, and it
Speaker 1: seems because it's pretty well put together, somebody knew what
Speaker 1: they were doing. Wasn't obviously this dude did it. Because
Speaker 1: what I laugh at is everything that this guy puts
Speaker 1: up on YouTube. It's always whatever the name of it is,
Speaker 1: dot m o V, which is a file type that
Speaker 1: nothing hardly any system uses anymore. So he's using some
Speaker 1: antiquated software and doesn't know what he's doing, but it's
Speaker 1: just freaking weird. His user name of notes, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Mr one twelve dirt Bag one twelve being the road
Speaker 1: she was found on, her car was found on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's just say, you know the significance of that is
Speaker 1: like her father, Marrow's father, Fred had said at one
Speaker 1: point that he believed that she had just been abducted
Speaker 1: by some dirt bag and that was literally his word
Speaker 1: was the word he used was dirt bag. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so apparently I don't know that this guy is just
Speaker 1: some internet psycho that wants to torment the family. Well,
Speaker 1: there's some of the videos that he released were just
Speaker 1: like line drawings. There was one just like a girl
Speaker 1: with a black eye. Yeah, it's you can find information
Speaker 1: on this online here. What I'm going to say about
Speaker 1: this is there's been there's been some forensic is the
Speaker 1: wrong word, but psychological uh interpretation. You know, people who
Speaker 1: understand this mental standpoint have looked into it and they've
Speaker 1: realized that all this dude is doing is he knows
Speaker 1: that he can get a rise out of these people. Sure,
Speaker 1: you're gonna a little pain, and that he's got power
Speaker 1: over them and he's getting off on that power. All
Speaker 1: it is. I'm kind of surprised that is that the
Speaker 1: authorities haven't done anything in terms of trying to like
Speaker 1: track this guy down and what doesn't seem like it
Speaker 1: to be that hard because I think that he's a
Speaker 1: troll and they just don't care. It's obvious that this
Speaker 1: guy is just a troll, he's just a weirdo, because
Speaker 1: I mean he cropped up years later. That just is
Speaker 1: some guy who found something that he knew he could
Speaker 1: fixate on and get his his power jolly's off of Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's what what it is too. But you know,
Speaker 1: if you're going to do your due diligence as a
Speaker 1: law enforcement off and you should find him this house
Speaker 1: with one of them there could ever dogs, you know,
Speaker 1: and see what you can find in the backyard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure he's just some random sick Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: So there's one more thing that I'd like to just
Speaker 1: like note here, and this cropped up in it is
Speaker 1: kind of like flew onto my radar. I guess when
Speaker 1: I was doing my research there, you know, as many
Speaker 1: of you know, I do some of my research on radit.
Speaker 1: So there was a threat about this, and somebody posted
Speaker 1: this quote and said, oh, here's my source, and it
Speaker 1: was Wikipedia. But the Wikipedia article doesn't have this quote
Speaker 1: anymore on it removed. So I thought that was extra interesting.
Speaker 1: While we're going down the yellow Brick road. So I'm
Speaker 1: just going to read the little excerpt that was on
Speaker 1: Wikipedia that, as far as I can tell, is no
Speaker 1: longer on Wikipedia. It says at some point the New
Speaker 1: Hampshire State Police trooper had been at the scene. The
Speaker 1: nature and extent of his involvement has not been disclosed.
Speaker 1: The Murray family had reported that they have discovered that
Speaker 1: there was no radio communication between the state police officer
Speaker 1: and his station for approximately two hours after he arrived
Speaker 1: on the scene. I feel that significant and I feel
Speaker 1: it's interesting that it's not on Wikipedia anymore. Well, what
Speaker 1: is it saying though, it's saying that after her crash
Speaker 1: at when her when she disappeared, a New Hampshire State
Speaker 1: trooper arrived on the scene, right, I understand that, but
Speaker 1: what what is what is the implication or significance of
Speaker 1: the fact that he didn't went on the radio for
Speaker 1: two hours he went dark for two hours because he
Speaker 1: was busy murdering mar Murray. Is the implication. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's one implication. I think that again, it's that whole
Speaker 1: like grasping at straws on this case. That like, if
Speaker 1: we're going to say that Kate is a person of
Speaker 1: interest because her father made a homemade bomb and tried
Speaker 1: to like blow up his neighbor, maybe the guy didn't
Speaker 1: report in. He went to the dinery, he had a cigarette, coffee,
Speaker 1: eighteen slices of pie, and then finally waddled back to
Speaker 1: his car and radio after That's possible. But you know,
Speaker 1: I don't forget this too, is that the fact that
Speaker 1: there was no radio communication for two hours is probably
Speaker 1: b s also, So I mean, you can account for
Speaker 1: a two hour gap, but bear in mind the two
Speaker 1: hour gap probably never exists at the beginning. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: you know, and that's my big question mark, right, is that,
Speaker 1: like I can't say I can't substantiate this at all,
Speaker 1: but I can say that, like, Okay, it's weird that
Speaker 1: maybe he wouldn't have been in contact for two hours
Speaker 1: after discovering that a young year old woman had wandered
Speaker 1: away from the scene of her car crash with her
Speaker 1: debit card and not much else. And it's significant also
Speaker 1: that perhaps that is no longer part of the like
Speaker 1: Wikipedia Common Commons information, you know. And again I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it actually is the Netland. I
Speaker 1: can see this being removed if there's no source, because
Speaker 1: you've got to back these things out of People just
Speaker 1: go into Wiki and do stuff all the time, and
Speaker 1: the moderators realize that there's no basis for it, and
Speaker 1: the kinds of cases of that, and you maybe get
Speaker 1: contacted by some of these lawyers you say, hey, this
Speaker 1: is liable. Yeah, yeah, And so you know, I guess
Speaker 1: I just feel that it's worth mentioning just for the
Speaker 1: sake of prosperity. Prosterity. She's making up for the missing
Speaker 1: letters man. All right, well where are we at now?
Speaker 1: So I guess we're kind of in the theories are
Speaker 1: I think obviously theory number one UFO abduction abduction, although
Speaker 1: there's a lack of you know, lights and stuff like that. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: you know what is actually again kind of worth note
Speaker 1: There are no actual alien UFO abduction theories in this,
Speaker 1: which is odd because there always are, and they never
Speaker 1: saw nobody saw any blue lights nearby. No, and right,
Speaker 1: like a little bit last week showed the black hole
Speaker 1: of all UFO things, and so we we we had
Speaker 1: sucked them all up. So there's none left for this story,
Speaker 1: all right, that's fair. So not Well, so there's the
Speaker 1: theory that she ran away. Yeah, she ran away, And
Speaker 1: then I guess there's like the sub theories of and
Speaker 1: it went horribly right or it went horribly wrong? Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: so flushed this out? Well, I mean, she could have
Speaker 1: run away and meant to kind of fake her own
Speaker 1: death to like truly escape her life, right, that's the
Speaker 1: thing we know about. Yeah, but there's good evidence that
Speaker 1: she didn't do that. There is, Yeah, I mean, for
Speaker 1: of things, she left without much money in her pocket.
Speaker 1: And if you to believe her dad, and I have
Speaker 1: no reason to doubt her, to doubt her dad did
Speaker 1: they were looking for a new car for her, right, So,
Speaker 1: and and again, I mean, people are casting expersions of
Speaker 1: this guy, but I don't have any reason to believe
Speaker 1: that he was lying about that. So therefore, if you're
Speaker 1: going to run away, and also let's not forget that
Speaker 1: she cleaned out her bank account, but she had checks
Speaker 1: on the way, checks were in the mail, right, So
Speaker 1: if you're gonna disappear, aren't you gonna wait for those
Speaker 1: checks to come so you have a little more cash
Speaker 1: to carry with you? Yeah? But yeah, I mean, but
Speaker 1: you're basically gonna wait for You're gonna wait for that
Speaker 1: stuff to happen, and you're probably gonna go ahead and
Speaker 1: wait an extra week for the new car to materialize.
Speaker 1: Because if you're gonna go on the run and disappear,
Speaker 1: it's obviously better to do it with a newer, nicer,
Speaker 1: more reliable car. So that's why I completely discount the
Speaker 1: thought that she ran away. Well here, my, my, my
Speaker 1: problem with this theory is that, and again I am
Speaker 1: not saying anything bad about Mara, but she has proven
Speaker 1: to not have exercised the best decision making in a
Speaker 1: lot of scenario and so I don't know that she
Speaker 1: would have necessarily said, well, I've got two eighty bucks
Speaker 1: in the bank right now, but if I wait five days,
Speaker 1: I'll have another four hundred bucks and I can take off.
Speaker 1: She may have just said I had two bucks, but
Speaker 1: I'm out. I'm bucks and booze and that's gonna hold me.
Speaker 1: I just gotta go, yeah, okay, that's that's fine too,
Speaker 1: very shortsighted, thinking, well, you know, it is it is,
Speaker 1: But was incredibly determined and decided, even after she crashed
Speaker 1: her car, that she was gonna go ahead and continue
Speaker 1: with her disappearance anyway. You know, I still think I
Speaker 1: don't believe it. I think that at that point she
Speaker 1: would say, well, my my disappearing act is kind of
Speaker 1: like kind of like just augured in and as a
Speaker 1: complete failure. So I'm gonna go back home, I'm gonna regroup,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna like disappear a little bit like another
Speaker 1: month down the line when I've got a new car.
Speaker 1: But the other thing about it is is, okay, her
Speaker 1: judgment was bad. She was thinking erratically, I thought, thinking
Speaker 1: I will disappear. Well, ten years have gone by, She's
Speaker 1: had plenty of time to rethink her decision. She's probably
Speaker 1: been out there, if she's still alive, which I doubt,
Speaker 1: she's been out there eating a lot of you know
Speaker 1: what and not doing that well. So at some point
Speaker 1: she's going to call home and say I'm sorry. I
Speaker 1: thought i'd run away from home and it hasn't worked
Speaker 1: out that well. Well, But this was not a month ago. Um,
Speaker 1: I was reading the story of there was a guy
Speaker 1: in that region who I cannot remember what they called him,
Speaker 1: but he was the guy who would break into summer
Speaker 1: homes in the winter and steal all their food and
Speaker 1: their batteries and just he was a phantom and he
Speaker 1: would come in and he would just you know, jimmy,
Speaker 1: open a window and he's see all the food stuff,
Speaker 1: some batteries, and some clothes and disappeared. Never did any damage,
Speaker 1: but he just steal it all. The guy lived in
Speaker 1: the woods for twenty freaking years and he flat out
Speaker 1: he did the same thing. He one day drove away,
Speaker 1: backed his car up and parked it on a service
Speaker 1: road and started hiking, and he just disappeared. And how
Speaker 1: he survived the cold in attent is you know, it's
Speaker 1: a stroke of luck. But he did it, and people
Speaker 1: do that. So yeah. But he didn't say, well, I
Speaker 1: better wait till all my paychecks come through and I
Speaker 1: got money because I'm gonna go. No, he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna use money. I'm just gonna get out.
Speaker 1: There's no there's no reason to believe that Marl Mury
Speaker 1: was that kind of a hardcore person though. I mean,
Speaker 1: she hasn't obviously had experience with hiking in the outdoors
Speaker 1: and stuff. But that guy was no hardcore survivalist either.
Speaker 1: It's just an example, Yeah, it's it's a great example.
Speaker 1: But when he look at the probabilities here, um, the
Speaker 1: probability that she's just disappeared to start a new last
Speaker 1: sumwhere versus what else could have happened, like being abducted
Speaker 1: and murdered, Well, I've got to say abduction and murders
Speaker 1: a much much stronger possibility. Yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 1: that the interesting bit. You know, there's so many of those,
Speaker 1: and we're just totally omitting all of the like sightings
Speaker 1: of Marrow Murray that have called in in the last
Speaker 1: ten years, mostly because like, please go online and look
Speaker 1: at pictures of her. She's like one of the most
Speaker 1: innocuous white women ever. I mean, she's got brown hair,
Speaker 1: she looks like a totally normal, like attractive, but not
Speaker 1: like so attractive that you would notice her blending in
Speaker 1: white woman. And I have so many friends who kind
Speaker 1: of do that whole like a woman to go to
Speaker 1: Alaska and like work in a fish processing plant for
Speaker 1: a couple of years and like do you think that
Speaker 1: they're relatigious about like actually, you know, having a work
Speaker 1: visa and like proving who you are, like running a
Speaker 1: background check and all that. So no, I mean they
Speaker 1: may pay you in cash and like that's fine because
Speaker 1: it's cheaper for them in the long run. You know.
Speaker 1: It's not to say that that's what she did, but
Speaker 1: it would be possible for her to have escaped someplace.
Speaker 1: You know, I had taken a job under the table
Speaker 1: for a little while until she could earn the money
Speaker 1: to make it out of the country and just go. Well,
Speaker 1: and and here's one of the things. I don't know
Speaker 1: if we've talked about this. When you pull up Woodsville
Speaker 1: where she crashed her car, it is less than a
Speaker 1: hundred miles away from the Canadian board. So you think
Speaker 1: the Canadians did it. I don't think the Canadians. But
Speaker 1: they stopped her full of Tim Horton's and you know,
Speaker 1: and maple syrup and said, okay a, no, I think
Speaker 1: that it's it's one of those things where if she's
Speaker 1: if she's running from, I don't know what she thought
Speaker 1: was so terrible that she had to run from. And
Speaker 1: you look at where Amurs is and you look where
Speaker 1: she crashed. She drove two and a half hours north
Speaker 1: and she was about an hour or so away from
Speaker 1: crossing the border and go into a new life. And
Speaker 1: what do people do and you you mentioned this, what
Speaker 1: do people do when they want to make me like
Speaker 1: they go to another country and they just start over
Speaker 1: with a and just have basics. And I have no idea.
Speaker 1: This is two thousand four, of course, this is after leven,
Speaker 1: so there would be a record of a border crossing.
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody you know on the US
Speaker 1: of the Canadian side of the border actually you know,
Speaker 1: kept track of who crossed the border. But you would
Speaker 1: think the police would probably have checked on something like that.
Speaker 1: Maybe they didn't. I mean, it's it's the authorities. I
Speaker 1: have an amazing ability to be like super authoritarian and
Speaker 1: everything like that and massively incompetence. I think, well, I
Speaker 1: think that the thing is right is that, like we
Speaker 1: keep an incredible record of everybody who comes into our country.
Speaker 1: I don't know that to keep a great record of
Speaker 1: who leaves our country now that the Canadians would have
Speaker 1: the Canadians would have a record if you came in.
Speaker 1: I gotta be honest, you know. I mean I've I've
Speaker 1: driven through the Canadian border and waived my passport and
Speaker 1: kept going yea, and they didn't scan me every stinking
Speaker 1: time I came through the border. Yeah again. Well, I
Speaker 1: think what happened after Not eleven, though, is that there's
Speaker 1: basically the US because somebody of the not eleven um
Speaker 1: terrorists infiltrated our country to the Canadian border. The US
Speaker 1: we started clapping down on that, and retaliation, the Canadians
Speaker 1: started clamping down on us and started putting much stricter
Speaker 1: rules about who could come in and everything like that.
Speaker 1: So I I would imagine it by that point in
Speaker 1: time that they were probably actually scanning all the passports
Speaker 1: that people coming out. Okay, okay, but but here's the
Speaker 1: problem with that is that you're presuming that she was checked. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: let's just say for giggles, let's just say that Mara ran.
Speaker 1: She ran north on the road, or she got a
Speaker 1: ride and one of those cars that went by, and
Speaker 1: she gets in a car and she gets out to
Speaker 1: I think it's Interstate ninety one, is that right, Devon?
Speaker 1: She gets one one and she hooked. She thumbs a
Speaker 1: ride and she gets some family and a camper, or
Speaker 1: she gets some dude that's driving a truck and she
Speaker 1: gives some sob story about running away from whatever she's
Speaker 1: running away from and just says, listen, I can't be tracked.
Speaker 1: Can I hide in the back and can you tell
Speaker 1: them that no, there's nobody else with you? And she
Speaker 1: goes through and she's unchecked. I mean, there's a brazilion
Speaker 1: ways that you know, you guys are piling improbability on
Speaker 1: top of improbability. I'm saying that it's possible that she
Speaker 1: could have done it. I think that's the case. It's
Speaker 1: entirely possible. I personally agree with Joe with what Joe
Speaker 1: has been railroading this, But I'm saying, here's what's possible. Well,
Speaker 1: and I think that like the probability of like you
Speaker 1: hooked a ride, right, are you going to end up
Speaker 1: like actually catching her ride with like a really kindly
Speaker 1: person who like smuggles you across the border of Canada.
Speaker 1: Or are you gonna hook her ride with like Psycho
Speaker 1: who murders you in the closet of an a frame.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know that's that's one of the
Speaker 1: huge problems with this story and why I don't want
Speaker 1: to go like too far down the rabbit hole of theories. Right, So,
Speaker 1: like there are some like broad stroke theories that like
Speaker 1: we could mention, but once you start getting into that whole, like, well,
Speaker 1: she tried to run away but things went wrong, Like
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, are you kidding me? That's like a
Speaker 1: million different threads of like oh, and then this could
Speaker 1: have happened, and this could have happened, and that could
Speaker 1: have happened, and maybe it was this. Maybe it's there's
Speaker 1: so many different places to go, and then you know,
Speaker 1: on top of that, you've got the well she ran
Speaker 1: away and successfully faked her death and it's like living
Speaker 1: high and mighty and like Tahiti right now, right, or
Speaker 1: there was some foul play aspect in it. It's just
Speaker 1: so I think I think we as as a trio
Speaker 1: here had this conversation before we hit the record button today,
Speaker 1: is that there's so many threads of this story that
Speaker 1: could run nowhere that it is near impossible to just
Speaker 1: pull on one and try and get to the root
Speaker 1: of what actually happened, because the whole thing, it doesn't unravel,
Speaker 1: it not, it turns into a giant ball of information
Speaker 1: and you can't find your way out of it. And
Speaker 1: there's so much, so much again pollution from the Internet,
Speaker 1: and extraneous information that doesn't maybe actually have say, for example,
Speaker 1: the credit card thing, you know, that's that's extraneous. But
Speaker 1: but but anyway, you get back to again the running
Speaker 1: away thing. I'm not saying it's completely beyond the realm
Speaker 1: of possibility, but in order to believe that, seriously, have
Speaker 1: to believe that she was one to take off with
Speaker 1: a car that barely ran with only buck and that
Speaker 1: she immediately boo blew a big chunk of that on booze.
Speaker 1: Bad judgment all the way around, And when she could
Speaker 1: have actually hung around for a few days and gotten
Speaker 1: a bunch more money to take with her owner John's,
Speaker 1: she was willing to afflict all this pain upon her family.
Speaker 1: And you know, again, maybe she's maybe she was a sociopath.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but we're extreme, yeah, And and all
Speaker 1: these years have gone by and she hasn't rethought the
Speaker 1: fact that maybe I should get in touched, to get
Speaker 1: in touch with the folks and my brother and sister whatever,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, um, it just none of that
Speaker 1: makes sense at the scene, the car was locked. She left. Yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So she left the scene and locked the car, which
Speaker 1: is obviously if you're going to hang around by your car,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna lock it. So what happened was you
Speaker 1: want to keep it safe that actually decided, Yeah, she
Speaker 1: decided to hoof it, or somebody drove up and offered
Speaker 1: her a ride, one or the other, and at that
Speaker 1: point she said, okay, let me lock up my car.
Speaker 1: She locked her car, she got in a car with
Speaker 1: somebody or else planning to come back. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So the logical thing for her to have done would
Speaker 1: have been to walk to one of the nearby houses
Speaker 1: if she did that, or climb in a car with somebody. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's what happened. I think that's
Speaker 1: so much more likely. I think probably what I would
Speaker 1: do it as I would look at anybody in that
Speaker 1: town who drives a tow truck. The guy pulled up
Speaker 1: and said, hey, I have a tow truck company wants
Speaker 1: hop in. We'll go to my place, you can warm up,
Speaker 1: we'll come back in my truck. We'll tell your car
Speaker 1: to the nearest garage. The tow truck driver in town
Speaker 1: is a murderer. Well you're okay, it could be anybody truck.
Speaker 1: But you know, here's the other thing that's so awkward
Speaker 1: about this story is we're gonna go back to Renter. Okay,
Speaker 1: that guy has thrown out a lot of stuff, and
Speaker 1: I don't put any credence in what I'm about to
Speaker 1: talk about, but he cast a net of doubt at Fred,
Speaker 1: and it's a net of incest because he he talks
Speaker 1: about things of why did she go back to her
Speaker 1: dad's room and all of this stuff. She was so drunk,
Speaker 1: Why was she heading back to her dad? Because she
Speaker 1: had her dad's car and he was going to leave
Speaker 1: in the morning. She didn't want to wake up hungover.
Speaker 1: She took it so he could drive her back to
Speaker 1: the dorm and drive his car back to his hotel
Speaker 1: room and go to sleep that night. Yeah. But but
Speaker 1: the stuff, I mean, he's putting out and so this
Speaker 1: is again, as you said, it's polluting. What's out there
Speaker 1: is that he is He's yeah again, he's saying, well, well,
Speaker 1: maybe there was this weird thing of incest and that's
Speaker 1: why there was this and that. And I think I
Speaker 1: find it really hard to get even in the realm
Speaker 1: of acceptable ideas. I think that that's incredibly irresponsible to
Speaker 1: put that kind of stuff out there. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know her dad or anything like that,
Speaker 1: but I'm giving it the presumption of the town. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to assume he's not Again. This
Speaker 1: is this is where I know you have another I
Speaker 1: just thought there was one little like the other thing
Speaker 1: that was worth mentioning that has kind of an an
Speaker 1: interesting spin on this whole thing. Apparently, on the night
Speaker 1: of February five, two four, so that was the night, yeah,
Speaker 1: that she broke down crying, and that was February seven, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was the night that she broke down
Speaker 1: crying and had to be escorted from after she got
Speaker 1: back from her break on work and she spent a
Speaker 1: long time talking to her sister on the phone. Yes,
Speaker 1: Apparently that night, around the time that she was on
Speaker 1: her break, a U mask student named Vassi pet Treat.
Speaker 1: The Treat was the victim of a hit and run accident.
Speaker 1: He was a pedestrian, She was a pedestrian. The student
Speaker 1: was a pedestrian, uh and got hit by a car
Speaker 1: that drove off and probably was never found. A guy
Speaker 1: or a girl. It's a good question, I think we'll
Speaker 1: get Let's go with girl. I would say it probably
Speaker 1: serves your right. Pedestrians usually deserved to get run over.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If she's on her break from work,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing she had a fifteen minute break. She was
Speaker 1: on the phone. She was on the phone with her
Speaker 1: sister for like an hour, so it would have been
Speaker 1: a fairly substantial break. So the theory goes that perhaps
Speaker 1: while on her break, even maybe while on her break
Speaker 1: on the phone with her sister, she accidentally struck a
Speaker 1: fellow student slash pedestrian and panicked and ran away from it.
Speaker 1: And then this theory is like, very odd, but just
Speaker 1: stick with me for a second. Here borrowed her father's
Speaker 1: car and practiced running it into a guardrail. What what
Speaker 1: practiced running it into a guardrail because she wanted to
Speaker 1: run her own car into a guardrail to cover up
Speaker 1: for the fact that she had hit somebody and then
Speaker 1: abandoned the car. But it went terribly wrong. Of course
Speaker 1: in the end, right, it always goes terribly wrong. But
Speaker 1: the theory absolutely so. There are a lot of theories. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so when when this person patri was hit by a car.
Speaker 1: Did they report it? Yes, that's how they did. They
Speaker 1: report like a car description and the license number. As
Speaker 1: far as I know, No, yeah, I mean it probably
Speaker 1: a description of like, oh, it was a dark sedan,
Speaker 1: But I think it's far further than that. I don't
Speaker 1: know it was dark. It was it was night um
Speaker 1: when this person was hit. So I think that's like
Speaker 1: an interesting slight aside that like a maths student was
Speaker 1: the victim of a hidden run shortly before, you know,
Speaker 1: And it would account for some of the stuff, right,
Speaker 1: It would account for the fact that, like, you know,
Speaker 1: a couple hours later, she just lost control, like just
Speaker 1: realized the implications of what had happened. It would also explain,
Speaker 1: you know, her getting drunk, like really really drunk the
Speaker 1: next couple of nights looking for an a car. You know,
Speaker 1: it would a little bit right, you know, if you said, hey, dad,
Speaker 1: I hit somebody with my car and I don't know
Speaker 1: what to do, and maybe the dad Fred was like
Speaker 1: not the most responsible person, and he was like, well, crap,
Speaker 1: like we got to cover this thing up. But you're
Speaker 1: already on the path of covering things up. Let's buy
Speaker 1: you a new car, and we'll just here's the weird
Speaker 1: thing though, is her supervisor walked her home from her job,
Speaker 1: meaning she didn't drive to works. Well, she may have driven,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's possible that she or that
Speaker 1: her car was close, her dorm was close, and she
Speaker 1: walked back to her car and left to go get
Speaker 1: food and then came back. These are all total possibility. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I don't want to belabor this anymore
Speaker 1: because there's just so many directions that potentially absolutely but
Speaker 1: I do think that that's slightly worth the note that
Speaker 1: there is absolutely no evidence that vos Pat was hit
Speaker 1: by her. Also, you know, again, as I mentioned Dockbridge,
Speaker 1: I've I've been there, I've been Amherst, and Amhurst is
Speaker 1: pretty large, as is the campus. So like it's totally
Speaker 1: possible that there there's no connection. But we've been talking
Speaker 1: about grasping at straws, and it's a straw that really
Speaker 1: is this, This entire thing is a giant straw mata
Speaker 1: that we are just balancing on. Yeah, so I guess
Speaker 1: um that's the end of the theories. And I don't
Speaker 1: really want to ask you guys what your favorite theories
Speaker 1: are because you already told me what your favorite theories are.
Speaker 1: I don't really have she was abducted, murdered, and she's
Speaker 1: in a shallow graves. Personally, I hope that she is
Speaker 1: married to a logger in some Canadian flogging farm happily
Speaker 1: pumped out seven children too, but I don't think that's Yeah.
Speaker 1: I hope that she's like living in Tahiti. Yeah, Tahiti
Speaker 1: is much better married to like some island dude who
Speaker 1: just like treats her like a queen and lords every
Speaker 1: day and calls it awesome. Yeah. I hope that she's
Speaker 1: living in Salem. No, that's horrible, just kidding. That's so.
Speaker 1: With that, I think we're done talking about Marrow Murray
Speaker 1: about like three hours later, right something that something like that.
Speaker 1: What's its edited down? It won't be quite that long,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it'll be close. So to check out the
Speaker 1: link some of the links that we've been talking about,
Speaker 1: go to the internet. Go to the internet. Find out
Speaker 1: more liable. Uh no, we don't print liable on our
Speaker 1: our website. That website is thinking Sideways podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: You can stream our show there. You may be doing
Speaker 1: that already. If not, you're likely listening to us on iTunes. Uh.
Speaker 1: If you are listening to us on iTunes, please leave
Speaker 1: us a comment and rating if you would like. We
Speaker 1: love that stuff. Uh. It's also how other people find us,
Speaker 1: which is pretty cool. If you forget to download an
Speaker 1: episode and you're on the go, you can always stream
Speaker 1: us on Stitcher. It's pretty cool. We have the Facebook,
Speaker 1: both facebooks. We are on the Facebook. We are the
Speaker 1: We are the Facebook. We've got a group and a page,
Speaker 1: so like us or join us. We post pretty awesome
Speaker 1: stuff there sometimes. And as always, if you are mar Murray,
Speaker 1: please God, if you are mar Murray, Murray's murderer, please yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd rather hear from Marrow. Would you send us an email?
Speaker 1: That email address is has always Thinking Sideways podcast at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. And with that, we are going to
Speaker 1: stop invading your ear holes. Okay, another mess solved. Let's
Speaker 1: go have a beer. No, I think I actually think
Speaker 1: I might need a drink after that. I definitely need
Speaker 1: like five. All right, can we get on out of here?
Speaker 1: Thank you everybody. I need to go. Yeah, bye bye