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Speaker 1: Warning today's episode do this. It's not gonna have any spoilers.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. We talk about serial killers in

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Speaker 1: TV and movies.

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Speaker 2: And TV because it's spooky season.

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Speaker 3: But also it's a serious conversation. Oh I have that.

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Speaker 3: Here we go. Hello, it was Jason Gonzepsion.

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Speaker 2: And I'm serious. Rosie Knight for a serious conversation.

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Speaker 1: And welcome back to the x ray vision of the

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Speaker 1: podcast where we dive teap it's your favorite, chose movies,

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Speaker 1: comments to pop culture coming to you from my heart,

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Speaker 1: where we're bringing you three episodes a week.

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Speaker 2: WHOA plus News.

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Speaker 4: In today's episode, we are talking about serial killers in

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Speaker 4: TV and film and culture because of the new Ryan

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Speaker 4: Murphy project Monster and Gens story that Jason correctly described

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Speaker 4: in the group chat as dispicable, which I think is

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Speaker 4: the perfect right. We're gonna talk about our monster thoughts.

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Speaker 4: We're gonna talk about serial killer representation and TV. We're

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Speaker 4: also gonna look at serial killers in pop culture and

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Speaker 4: also American culture and British culture. What is it that's

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Speaker 4: so intriguing about a serial killer? And we've even got

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Speaker 4: some global serial killer thoughts too, because throughout the history.

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Speaker 2: Of serial Killer TV.

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Speaker 4: There have been many big breakout hits that have kind

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Speaker 4: of made that crossover across the world. So yes, but

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Speaker 4: first we're gonna talk about Monster, all right.

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Speaker 1: Monster, and it's Ryan Murphy's latest installment in his American

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Speaker 1: Serial Killers.

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Speaker 3: Oove.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I haven't really even dug into he did Dama

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Speaker 1: obviously last.

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Speaker 4: And no, you know what, it was Dama first, and

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Speaker 4: then I completely forgot that. In the middle was the

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Speaker 4: the one about the brothers who killed that parents because

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Speaker 4: that parents were abusive.

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Speaker 1: Yes, allegedly believe that, and I believe that theory. But

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Speaker 1: but but yes, well, especially the Menez brothers.

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Speaker 4: The Menendez brothers and off the Woods, they found out

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Speaker 4: after the brothers were they already in prison, they found

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Speaker 4: out that the dad, who was a record exec had

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Speaker 4: been like sexually abusing other people and the record industry.

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Speaker 1: I'll just believe briefly, Yes, I'll say this briefly about

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Speaker 1: the Menendezes. There is many experts who have studied the

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Speaker 1: case and looked at the evidence believe that that their

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Speaker 1: actions and I'm not even talking about like the violence.

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about like the.

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Speaker 1: Interviews and the way that the brothers reacted to one

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Speaker 1: another and reacted to their parents were consistent with long

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Speaker 1: term child sexual abuse. And also, you know, watch any

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Speaker 1: of the documentaries about this really famous crime. Literally nobody

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Speaker 1: has any thing good to say about either of the victims.

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Speaker 1: And these are like their lawyers, their friends, like family

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Speaker 1: friends that are like, yeah, that guy was pit.

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Speaker 2: And it's been decades now, like no, so you know,

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Speaker 2: and I will.

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Speaker 4: Say, speaking of so, we know that the Dama show

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Speaker 4: was first, and I couldn't watch it. I know what

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Speaker 4: happened with DAMA. I don't have any I love Evan

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Speaker 4: Peters as an actor, but I have no interest. I'm

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Speaker 4: proud that Nisi Nash was able to be in there

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Speaker 4: and represent the real truth of that story about how

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Speaker 4: there was a black woman who lived next to Dharma

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Speaker 4: and her kids and they had actually saved one of

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Speaker 4: his victims and the police gave them back. But at

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Speaker 4: the same time, I don't think that we need a

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Speaker 4: show that is recreating the real gruesome deaths of people,

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Speaker 4: especially in that case a lot of gay black people

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Speaker 4: that is like also incredibly stylized and sexualized the menandez one.

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Speaker 2: I didn't watch either because I had.

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Speaker 4: Actually hoped that it would be a break in the case.

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Speaker 2: I'd read a lot about how it was going to

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Speaker 2: pose those ideas, and it did.

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Speaker 4: But it also and this is what's important to note

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Speaker 4: about the Monster shows and why I think they are

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Speaker 4: a problem. It also added an incest plot line which

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Speaker 4: was just made up, and Brian said, it's fictional, and

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Speaker 4: it's like it's not though.

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Speaker 3: These are real people's lives.

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Speaker 1: Monster, the ed Gen story starring Charlie Hunham as Ed

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Speaker 1: Dean Is, adds a concentration camp plot. Yeah, and again

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Speaker 1: despicable now here. Let me just say this, I am

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Speaker 1: a true crime fan in my personal life. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't want to do content about it necessarily

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Speaker 1: because I don't think I have yet to encounter a

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast that wasn't in some form of fashion exploitive.

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Speaker 1: And lets you know, hu, some of them are ones

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Speaker 1: that really champion the victim. And but but it's hard

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Speaker 1: to find one that's unexploited. But I but I, for

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Speaker 1: reasons unknown that are mysterious to myself, know a lot

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Speaker 1: about these subjects and same and so I'll just say this, Uh,

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Speaker 1: here's my problem with both Monster and Dahmer and stories

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Speaker 1: of this ILK why One, it's hard to do a

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Speaker 1: story that follows the serial killer that doesn't necessarily stylize, heighten, whatever, make.

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Speaker 3: A hero out of the serial killer. That's one. Two.

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Speaker 5: In my.

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Speaker 1: Weird and copious readings about many of these cases, I

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Speaker 1: can I feel like I could say this with some authority.

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Speaker 1: Generally speaking, every American serial killer story is basically a

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Speaker 1: story of.

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Speaker 3: How the cops fucked up.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly exactly famously you you you said it. There

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Speaker 1: was an infamous example of one of his victims escaping

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Speaker 1: but still kind of addled under the effects of the

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Speaker 1: drugs that he the Dahmer had had tried to apply

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Speaker 1: to him, and and Dahmer made this excuse that, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're gay lovers and we had a lover's spat, and

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Speaker 1: the cops laughed about it and then returned the victim

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Speaker 1: to do The.

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Speaker 2: Victim was also am I not guys? So yes, it

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Speaker 2: was really bad.

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Speaker 1: And so all of the you know, like the Golden

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Speaker 1: State Killer, like all of who was a cop at

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Speaker 1: one point in his current all of these stories are

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Speaker 1: basically the story of missed opportunities. So like what serial

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Speaker 1: killer stuff works for me? The serial stuff that works

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Speaker 1: is pure fiction or stuff like Manhunter that's like turned

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Speaker 1: into you know, you take real cases, but you turn

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Speaker 1: it into fiction, and it's primarily about like a confrontation

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Speaker 1: between like violence and the dark side of humanity and

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Speaker 1: it and it creates this fantasy of you know, what

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Speaker 1: if the FBI and the cops were actually good at

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Speaker 1: catching the.

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Speaker 4: Exactly Well, this is I'm so glad you brought that up,

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Speaker 4: because I do believe that much of serial killer fiction

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Speaker 4: of that ILK like the mind Hunter and you know,

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Speaker 4: sbu CSI, all these shows that repeatedly introduce cyal they

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Speaker 4: are competency fantasies.

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Speaker 2: They are silence of Silence.

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Speaker 3: Of Red Dragon.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what if they really did know what they

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Speaker 4: were doing?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 4: And that's for me, that's why I enjoy a more

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Speaker 4: either yeah, a more totally fictionalized like a Hannibal style show,

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Speaker 4: which I think has the stylization and also is a

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Speaker 4: show about how bad the cops are at their job

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Speaker 4: because they're working with Hannibal. And I think that you

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Speaker 4: make a really good point there about something that is

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Speaker 4: more interesting and.

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Speaker 2: Intriguing, and I think that for me.

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Speaker 4: I watched the first episode of The Eggear one because

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Speaker 4: I was like, you know what, I've seen many women

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Speaker 4: be killed.

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Speaker 2: I love Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

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Speaker 4: I think as one of the best endings, like most

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Speaker 4: hopeful endings of any movie in that genre. I love

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Speaker 4: the stories that were kind of created, the fictional life story.

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Speaker 4: So I was like, I probably won't find this one offensive.

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Speaker 4: Within five minutes, they had this guy naked self asphyxiating

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Speaker 4: on the door where he gets caught by his mother

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Speaker 4: who then you know, has to dress him down and

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Speaker 4: embarrass him. And he's completely ripped and buff and if

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Speaker 4: you've ever seen a picture of Edgie and that is

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Speaker 4: not the case and.

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Speaker 2: Justly too hot to play a game doing like just

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Speaker 2: just be chilled out.

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Speaker 4: Guys like Ryan Murphy go back to the fictionalized tales.

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Speaker 4: He's very offensive to me personally.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I found despicable about what the episodes of

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Speaker 1: Monster that I watched, And again, Ryan Murphy must be stopped.

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Speaker 3: Someone must put a stop to this.

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Speaker 2: Sally.

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Speaker 1: There's a scene that essentially launches the concentration camp plot.

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Speaker 1: This is crazy to even be saying this. It's the

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Speaker 1: story ed ed is presented with photos from World War

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Speaker 1: Two that as that another character got like from their

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Speaker 1: brother who's like a reporter or some kind of journalist

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Speaker 1: over there and taking a bunch of pictures and some

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Speaker 1: of them are concentrations, and and Ed Dean gets so

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Speaker 1: like inspired, kind of aroused in the creation man is

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Speaker 1: that yes by this and it gives him ideas?

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Speaker 3: And at that point I was just like I.

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Speaker 1: Can't believe we're now We're gonna watch this guy for

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Speaker 1: eight episodes and then when they actually did Zone of Interest, stop,

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Speaker 1: I'll dive into this completely, Like why is this connected

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Speaker 1: to this story?

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Speaker 4: It's because Ryan Murphy wanted to make like an exploitative

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Speaker 4: like she Wolf of the SS style movie.

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Speaker 2: But it's just like odd, why is this crazy? This?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she literally is.

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Speaker 2: Vicky Cripes is playing her.

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Speaker 5: And it's sorry for Vicky me too because she's a

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Speaker 5: great actress, but like, yeah, this is a real Nazi

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Speaker 5: war criminal and they have her like flaying the skin

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Speaker 5: off fucking Jewish people and shit, like what the fuck,

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Speaker 5: Ryan Murphy, I don't to me.

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Speaker 4: And look, she says that her family has like a

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Speaker 4: personal connection to the Holocaust, and she her grandfather was

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Speaker 4: in a concentration camp, so to her, there's like this

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Speaker 4: personal connection. I'm sorry, I just think that Brian Murphy

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Speaker 4: needs to be stopped. Like it's not even this is

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Speaker 4: the thing, like Monster hilariously was not even gonna be

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Speaker 4: really a topic point here. We just wanted to look

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Speaker 4: at Serial Killer TV. But I was astonished by the

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Speaker 4: show and by by kind of like what is seen

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Speaker 4: as acceptable when you're telling a fictionalized version of the truth.

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Speaker 4: But he is just adding like so much stuff. It

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Speaker 4: was never that was never, ever, ever ever a part

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Speaker 4: of It's the kind of like the based on a

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Speaker 4: true story thing at the beginning, it's giving the Fargo

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Speaker 4: version where they just made it up. It's like there's

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Speaker 4: so much addition and I would say lack of responsibility

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Speaker 4: by this person, who, by the way, also like drove

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Speaker 4: his car through striking workers at while the strikes were.

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Speaker 2: Run, so like that happened, yes, allegedly.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's take a let's teak a quick break, and

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Speaker 1: we'll be back to talk about why these stories fascinus.

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Speaker 3: And we're back.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about serial killers on on TV and

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Speaker 1: in movies again. I do think that this is this

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Speaker 1: is a genre that is one that holds a lot

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Speaker 1: of power to fascinate and to entertain, And yet I

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Speaker 1: looking at the list of really like I guess.

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Speaker 2: Important, Yeah, like the the kind of big movies.

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Speaker 1: In this genre TV and yeah, it's it's always, always, always,

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Speaker 1: with a few rare exceptions, the story of some fictional

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Speaker 1: killer who is an amalgam of other killers. Uh Fritz

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Speaker 1: Lang's m for instance, which I saw in uh like

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Speaker 1: film appreciation class, and was.

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Speaker 4: I was gonna say, it's such a legendary movie.

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Speaker 1: You know, Hitchcock's Psycho Texas Chainsaw mass which is presented

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Speaker 1: as a real thing and of course is just simply

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Speaker 1: a horror movie.

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Speaker 5: Is but it's also based loosely has elements of Gan

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Speaker 5: and yeah.

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Speaker 4: Peeping Tom Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the early wave was based

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Speaker 4: on a game. But I think that M is such

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Speaker 4: an interesting thing to bring up, because that's thirty years.

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Speaker 2: Before any of those movies and before.

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Speaker 4: Gans and hornors have been found. So what do you

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Speaker 4: think it is even then for someone like Fritz Flang Metropolis,

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Speaker 4: someone who's made such incredible yeah, you know, films. What

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Speaker 4: do you think it is about that idea? I guess

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Speaker 4: it's the the understanding that you get when you're like

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Speaker 4: a teenager, right, or maybe a kid, and for the

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Speaker 4: first time you kind of realize that there's a huge

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Speaker 4: social contract that all of us are part of. Like

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Speaker 4: when somebody's driving their car down the street, they get

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Speaker 4: into the car and they make a social contract that

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Speaker 4: they're not just going to run you over, right, And

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Speaker 4: there's kind of this basis.

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Speaker 2: That you just have to trust every one else in society.

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Speaker 4: And I think that the fear of well, what if

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Speaker 4: somebody did the worst thing is always like an It's

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Speaker 4: kind of like a rumination or like an intrusive thought.

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Speaker 4: And I think throughout human culture it has permeated.

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Speaker 2: These ideas of killers or monsters, and I.

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Speaker 4: Just think it's so interesting and it's such a big

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Speaker 4: part of modern culture, like especially when we talk about

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Speaker 4: someone like Ryan.

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Speaker 2: Murphy that's shaping Netflix. That's a billion views.

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Speaker 4: That's more people than have ever watched TV are watching

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Speaker 4: TV nowadays, and those stories are still there, you know,

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Speaker 4: almost one hundred years later.

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Speaker 1: I think that there's a very strong folkloric aspect to it.

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Speaker 1: There is a possibly fictitious German serial killer from the

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Speaker 1: late Middle Ages early Modern period called christmin gin It.

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Speaker 1: I can't even pronounce his but it's ch Tienga or

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Speaker 1: something like that. And you know, this was a period

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Speaker 1: of time where travel was hazardous, there was no police,

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Speaker 1: know anything on the roads.

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Speaker 3: People would just kind of disappear.

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Speaker 1: And this was a this Christman character was like a

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Speaker 1: Boogeyman esque bandit that lurked in the woods and that would,

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Speaker 1: you know, waylay caravans and steal kids and kill people,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And I think that is that dynamic is

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Speaker 1: the basis of why these stories still work. The idea

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Speaker 1: that to your point, that there are real monsters who

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Speaker 1: lurk at the border of civilization, who you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of hunt among us and that do these horrendous things

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Speaker 1: and get away with it for a long time like

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Speaker 1: that is really scary and compelling.

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Speaker 3: I used to.

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Speaker 1: Pat Olswald's Michelle McNamara, the unbelievable reporter and historian who

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Speaker 1: is the late wife of Pat Oswald. She had a

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Speaker 1: blog called True Crime Diary, and what I appreciated about

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Speaker 1: her was she always covered these stories in a way

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Speaker 1: that brought the tragedy of the events to the forefront.

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Speaker 1: This wound that hasn't healed because no one knows who

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Speaker 1: committed x y Z crimes. And I think that that

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Speaker 1: is part of why these stories still fascinate. It's this

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Speaker 1: idea that somebody is so devoted to harm and evil

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Speaker 1: and hurting people that they would come up with these

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Speaker 1: ways to carry out their you know, vile fantasies and.

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Speaker 3: Seemingly get away with it.

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Speaker 1: And I think Fritz Lang's m has a lot of

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Speaker 1: the core things that still work, which are this idea

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Speaker 1: that you know, the killer lourks among us, this idea

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Speaker 1: that that the police, the authorities are completely use the cybergast,

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Speaker 1: they don't know what to do. Like an m this

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Speaker 1: person is eventually caught by an alliance between the the

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Speaker 1: like organized crime community in Germany, the police and the

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Speaker 1: local people all together working to find this this character.

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Speaker 1: And I think that kind of idea that the regular structures,

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Speaker 1: the organizations that should protect us from this kind of

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Speaker 1: thing aren't working, that is a fearful and potent metaphor.

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Speaker 1: And I think one that has been a fearful and

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Speaker 1: potent metaphor, you know, for many, many many years, going

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Speaker 1: back to this Christman character who reportedly murdered a thousand people,

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Speaker 1: if he was even.

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Speaker 4: Real exactly or if it was, if he wasn't just

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Speaker 4: like five different guys that they just.

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Speaker 2: Hundred.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad you put that up because I think

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Speaker 4: that obviously, coming from England, you know, serial killer culture

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Speaker 4: is a huge part of our history because of Jack

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Speaker 4: the Ripper and an unsolved crime. You know, depending on

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Speaker 4: which version you read, there are many different theories about

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Speaker 4: who he was. But again, it is a story historically

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Speaker 4: about the police failing, and also if you read you

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Speaker 4: Know from Hell or you read some different versions, it's

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Speaker 4: also about corruption and how the elite will protect their

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Speaker 4: own and I think those stories are eternally interesting and

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Speaker 4: they also shape our culture to a crazy point, like

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of people, for example skipping you know,

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Speaker 4: almost one hundred years but Scream was actually based on

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Speaker 4: real killings that I love those movies and I think

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Speaker 4: that they are so fun and so great and Kevin

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Speaker 4: Williamson and Wes Craven it's like an unstoppable team.

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Speaker 2: But when I first was.

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Speaker 4: Just randomly watching you know, Ion or something, and they

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Speaker 4: did an episode about it, I was like, fuck, Like,

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Speaker 4: imagine if that was your family, Like imagine if your

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Speaker 4: daughter was one of the people who got killed and

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Speaker 4: then they make entertainment out of it. And obviously, like

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Speaker 4: I said, Jack, Jack the Ripper, hundreds of TV shows

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Speaker 4: and movies about that in England, and so when I

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Speaker 4: moved to America, I was very interested in the fact

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Speaker 4: that Jack Ripper here definitely has that outrageous like you know,

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Speaker 4: they're making like Jack the Ripper in the Time Machine

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Speaker 4: because it's an out of license character. Jack the Ripper

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Speaker 4: comes back to London again. But then I read a

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Speaker 4: book that just totally blew my mind, and I know,

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Speaker 4: Jason that this is definitely your kind of thing. I

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Speaker 4: read The Devil in the White City by Eric Larsi,

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Speaker 4: which is like such an unbelievable book about how there is,

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Speaker 4: you know, the guy who's seen by many as kind

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Speaker 4: of the first major working serial killer in America, and

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Speaker 4: how he is his life kind of was changed and

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Speaker 4: shaped by the Chicago Worlds Fair and how that was

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Speaker 4: able to kind of hide what he was doing. And

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Speaker 4: that was such a brilliantly written and responsible book that

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Speaker 4: still was just as engaging as reading a thriller. And

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Speaker 4: after that I was like, Okay, I've got to try

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Speaker 4: and find more people who look at it from this way,

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Speaker 4: because It is so different from the many YA books

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Speaker 4: or thriller books or whatever that I've read where they

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Speaker 4: deal with it. For example, huge spate of YA thrillers

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Speaker 4: inspired by Amanda Knox. They those exist everywhere and stuff

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Speaker 4: like that, and they always are kind of salacious and

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Speaker 4: have a crazy twist. Devil in the White City was

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Speaker 4: a study of humanity and the time period that was

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Speaker 4: so interesting, and I think that tying it back to TV,

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Speaker 4: the only thing that I've seen people respond to in

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Speaker 4: a similar way that is fictional is Mind Hunter. I

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Speaker 4: feel like that when that came out, people suddenly were interested,

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Speaker 4: even though you know it's copaganda. It's promoting this idea

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Speaker 4: that the FBI knew what they were doing in a

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Speaker 4: bigger sense than they necessarily did.

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Speaker 2: But it was very serious and.

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Speaker 3: Thoughtful, and yet I enjoyed.

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Speaker 2: Very factually based in truth.

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Speaker 4: So I think that there's an interesting scope of serial

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Speaker 4: killer stories that go from the ultimate B movie like

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Speaker 4: Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which was banned and was made for

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Speaker 4: you know, less than a million dollars two the highest

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Speaker 4: budget David Fincher exploration of this, and that to me

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Speaker 4: is like really a wide scope to show just how

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Speaker 4: popular and intriguing that this exploration of like the dark

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Speaker 4: side of humanity really is people.

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Speaker 7: We'll be right back after a quick break, and we're back.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that it is a big part of American culture.

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Speaker 1: I mean it clearly is Do you think that? Do

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Speaker 1: you think that serial killers are for some reason, like

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Speaker 1: a bigger part of American cult pop culture than they

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Speaker 1: are other places?

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting question and I don't disagree, although I

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Speaker 1: feel like I don't have another info.

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Speaker 2: It feels more prominent here.

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Speaker 4: For example, like when Luther came out right at TV show,

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Speaker 4: I absolutely loved it, Yourselba starring, incredible writing, so hyper

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Speaker 4: fantastical that it almost felt like it was not about

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Speaker 4: cops or not about a real world. And also here's

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Speaker 4: a cop who's constantly flawed, constantly failing. But when that

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Speaker 4: show came out, its representation of serial killers was so

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Speaker 4: crazy and fantastical and incredible, and I was like, WHOA,

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Speaker 4: this is like a horror TV show. I've never really

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Speaker 4: seen England do anything like this. So then I was

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Speaker 4: looking back at O the serial killers and serial killer

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Speaker 4: programming and serial killer movies, and they do exist in England.

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Speaker 2: But I think.

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Speaker 4: Maybe what I hadn't really realized until this conversation is

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Speaker 4: maybe it seems like serial killers are more prominent here

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Speaker 4: just because we live in the capital of like most

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Speaker 4: entertainment that comes out.

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Speaker 2: In the West, you know.

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Speaker 4: So I think I do feel like there are probably

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Speaker 4: brilliant people who have drawn this line. But I also

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Speaker 4: feel like there are probably really interesting takes about how

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Speaker 4: serial killer TV and film are so prominent here because

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Speaker 4: of how violent American history is.

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Speaker 2: But also that would.

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Speaker 4: Not explain why it's not in England the ultimate original,

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Speaker 4: you know, violent colonizer. So I'm very interested in what

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Speaker 4: it draws, what draws people to it, And I think, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I just think in America that there is more of

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Speaker 4: it being made, and I'm and more types of it

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Speaker 4: being made.

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Speaker 2: For example, you have Something two thousand and four.

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Speaker 4: You have James Wan and Leewan or they you know,

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Speaker 4: come from Australia. They come with their little billy puppet

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Speaker 4: and they make Sore. One of the becomes one of

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Speaker 4: the hugest franchise films of all time. It's like massive,

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Speaker 4: it's super gory and gross.

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Speaker 1: As us like By is like basically the hero of

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Speaker 1: the film.

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Speaker 2: Yes, by the time you get to the end. But

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Speaker 2: he's a good guy.

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Speaker 4: Well that's also interesting because that leads to the kind

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Speaker 4: of righteous serial killer and that hannimal. But also I

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Speaker 4: think the thing that's crazy is so Saws made. You know,

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Speaker 4: Lionsgate makes it two thousand and four. Three years later,

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Speaker 4: Fincher makes Zodiac. Those are probably two of the most.

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Speaker 6: Different vibe athletic movies of all time, but are made

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Speaker 6: within three years of each other and are on the

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Speaker 6: same topic and subject.

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Speaker 3: But like that it's a good point. Yeah, that's the

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Speaker 3: great point.

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Speaker 4: The scope of like how much of this stuff is

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Speaker 4: being made and how different it is and how interesting

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Speaker 4: it is.

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Speaker 2: And I'm I'm just intrigued. Why it's not a question

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Speaker 2: we can answer.

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Speaker 1: I think is like, yeah, I think those two movies

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Speaker 1: give us give us the two basically the binary approaches

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Speaker 1: that they're exactly exactly the one is the serial killer

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Speaker 1: is kind of the main character, and so you either

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Speaker 1: do like pure horror movie or you do like righteous

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Speaker 1: serial Killer, and it's all about like the process and

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Speaker 1: how smart they're.

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Speaker 2: Why do they do it, and how do they do it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how they're carrying out these like elaborate schemes to

444
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: as a form of catharsis for some really really terrible

445
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: thing that either happened to them or they're trying to

446
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: riskify or they're trying to rectify through torturing these different characters.

447
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 5: Right.

448
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: And then the the Fincher approach, which is the more

449
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: kind of like quote unquote highbrow approach, which I agree

450
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: is a little bit more subtle approach.

451
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: Is about because you know, in.

452
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: Uh in Zodiac, there is kind of like the presence

453
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: of the Zodiac is there, and you're focused on these

454
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: conflict trying right, there's like a confrontation between various suspects

455
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: who may or may not be the Zodiac, but it's

456
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: really about a confrontation with the dark side of the

457
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: human soul and how you're how a character's obsession with

458
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: unlocking this mystery can be as toxic as the forces

459
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 1: unleashed by the violence that The Manhunter is kind of

460
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: like that too, where it's it's less about we got

461
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: to solve these crimes, and it's more about like, can

462
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: you stare into the darkness of the human soul and

463
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: come away exactly touched, you know, and stained by that?

464
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: That's why for me like Zodiac is. I think it's

465
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 4: It's one of my old time favorite movies. I go

466
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 4: between that and Gonir being my favorite Fincher movie. I

467
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 4: think Zodiac is really depressing, and I think that is

468
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 4: how it should feel to watch a movie about a

469
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 4: serial killer.

470
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 2: You should feel like it's depressing.

471
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 4: It ruins people's lives, it drags them in. I think

472
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,479
Speaker 4: that is the really really responsible way. I think something

473
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 4: the other end of that would be, to me, like

474
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 4: a you know, something like an American Psycho where you

475
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: go so extreme, or a Hannibal on TV show on NBC,

476
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 4: like where you go so extreme that you'll actual realm

477
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 4: of popular. Yeah, and Hannibal he you know what, Hannibal

478
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 4: just kills people who are rude and unculturn, and that.

479
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 5: He does.

480
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 4: Righteous to watch because you can feel righteous in it

481
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 4: without also you know, being like, well, I'm really going

482
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 4: to go out and chop a person up and turn

483
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 4: him into a beautiful like dead people.

484
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: Mural like Hannibal does.

485
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 4: The killings are so extreme that nobody is doing them,

486
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,719
Speaker 4: So I think it's an interesting and interesting scope.

487
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: And I would also say I don't.

488
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 4: Know if there's any I guess this is the nature

489
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 4: of Hollywood and filmmaking. But to me, the fact that

490
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: you can have like true crime shows that are made

491
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 4: on a budget of nothing that are so huge and

492
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 4: such a big part of culture all around the world. Right,

493
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 4: And they feed into this notion of the serial killer,

494
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 4: and they talk about the serial killer and they show

495
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 4: you about the different people who have killed because I

496
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 4: believe in the old days a serial killer cat to

497
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 4: kill three people and now I think it's two, and

498
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 4: then they become classed as a serial killer. But like

499
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: that is the lowest budget form of TV. But then

500
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 4: you also have you know, Martin Scorsese making Killing of

501
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 4: the Flower Moon and it's nominated for ten Oscars. And

502
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 4: I think that is what I find so intriguing about.

503
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: This is it is told.

504
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 4: These stories are told and accepted and in like investigated

505
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 4: and interrogated and watched by every single kind of person.

506
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: That's what I think is most interesting about it.

507
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Rosie, your favorite serial killer type story?

508
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: Okay, ooh, this is so hard. I will say.

509
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 4: I do think if there's one that I will argue

510
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 4: for an artistic merit and that I just love and

511
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: Rewatch the most, I will say it's Hannibal, because I

512
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 4: think Hannibal is an incredible show, incredible cost I think

513
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 4: that it plays with the ideas of what a procedural

514
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 4: drama can be, and.

515
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: Also it is queer, it is complex.

516
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 4: The third season is essentially a kind of an art

517
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 4: house movie set in Venice and Europe and is completely

518
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 4: abstract and strange. So I do think I think that's

519
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 4: up there with one of the best that we've ever got.

520
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 4: But like I said, I think Zodiac movie wise is

521
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 4: one of the best movies, but one of the best

522
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 4: crime movies we've ever had, but definitely one of the

523
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 4: best there.

524
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: What about you, Jason, I will say I love I

525
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: do love Man Hunter, I love.

526
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: Zodiac.

527
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: But for me, the most haunting, the most haunting of

528
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: this type of story that I've ever seen, is The Vanishing,

529
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: the Dutch original Dutch version of the movie, not the

530
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: adaptation starring Jeff Bridges. The Vanishing is.

531
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: Unbelievably Jason.

532
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: It's just like one of the scariest movies I have

533
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: ever seen in my entire life. And what happens is

534
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: this young couple is out on a road trip Dutch

535
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: couple and the girlfriend gets out of the car to

536
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: get something at like a gas station roadside gas and

537
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: never comes back to the car, and the man is like,

538
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: can't it's such a huge.

539
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 3: It's such a shock.

540
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: And such a devastating, abrupt tragedy, someone literally like walking

541
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: out of frame and never coming back. And it's and

542
00:31:54,840 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: he can't stop trying to unravel the mystery of what happened,

543
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: and eventually the killer or someone who knows about the

544
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: killing contacts him is like, oh, you want to know

545
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: what happened, I'll show you. And from there I won't

546
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: spoil it cause you want to watch it because it's

547
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: I will say it in spooky season and this is

548
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: ski season.

549
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 4: I will warn you, guys, this is a rare movie.

550
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 4: Like I will tell you, like, yeah, be careful going

551
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 4: into this. If you don't like this is a scary one,

552
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 4: this ship.

553
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: Will haunt you. I have a great, lovely.

554
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 4: Group of friends that we do discord horror movies every year,

555
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 4: and we watched this and I was waiting for everyone

556
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 4: to finish it, and it was when the end hits.

557
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 4: It's legit one of the most haunting things that you've

558
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 4: ever seen. And it's so scary, and you constantly think

559
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: about it, and sadly the American remake, which is interesting.

560
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: And change its change.

561
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: I would also say my other the end, I'll just

562
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: say this, and again not to spoiling it is so

563
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: jaw dropping in yeah, in its ruthlessness and scariness of it,

564
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: and you're not.

565
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: I've seen a million scary movies. I don't get scared.

566
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 3: This movie shakes you.

567
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 4: It does because also this, I think, I'm really glad

568
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: you brought this up, because I do think that there

569
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: is an element of naturalistic horror very.

570
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: It feels like it feels like a real case. It's

571
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: exactly real thing.

572
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. I think that's such a great pull.

573
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 4: Another one like that I remember, especially when we were young,

574
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 4: Jason Henry Portrait of a serial.

575
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 3: Ialked about it. Well, actually bothers me.

576
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so close and feels so real and raw

577
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 4: that you do believe it.

578
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: And I think that is true, even though now.

579
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 4: Obviously it does feel a little bit dated and some people,

580
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 4: you know, leather Face has become this kind of you know,

581
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 4: three D movie monster who you can watch in ten

582
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 4: other films, But the does Texas Chainsaw Massacre has that

583
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 4: to the point where that movie was banned in England

584
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 4: until the year two thousand, right because it had horrified

585
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 4: people so much when they saw it and they believed

586
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 4: it was real.

587
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: So I think you're onto something there.

588
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: That is a really interesting creepy aspect of this, which

589
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 4: are the really low budget movies.

590
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 2: I think another one I watched years ago is called

591
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: Like Long Pigs.

592
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 4: That was like one of those weird, like creepy pasta

593
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 4: esque like is it really released is it not? And yeah,

594
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 4: I think that element, the low budget to the point

595
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 4: where it starts to feel like it's real, is another

596
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:40,479
Speaker 4: really scary aspect. Okay, Jason, what is your most out

597
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 4: their time that you've seen like a serial killer story?

598
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 4: So for me, in England, every year at the holiday period,

599
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 4: which for us really is Christmas, right in the lead up,

600
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 4: all the soap operas have big storylines and sometimes there

601
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 4: will be a bus that crashes and it will be

602
00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 4: in the center of town and everyone would die.

603
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: But more often than not it is a serial killer.

604
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 2: They have so many serial killers in British.

605
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 4: Soaps, Like there's a woman in Coronation Street called Sally

606
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 4: and I think she's been married to like two serial killers,

607
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 4: So like that to me is the thing that's really

608
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: funny is like they push their way into these spaces

609
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 4: that aren't even scary, Like the soap opera versions of

610
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 4: them are never scary. They're just somebody who is they're killing,

611
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 4: who has a financial reason or you know, is a weirdo.

612
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 4: But that always kind of blew my mind that they

613
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 4: even make their way into entertainment where usually it's just

614
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 4: about like people sleeping with each other's husbands on this

615
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 4: you know, little street in East London or in up

616
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: North or something.

617
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: So for me, that's.

618
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 4: Always the one that I'm like, Wow, serial killers, you

619
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 4: really made it.

620
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: Guys. You're in the soap operas. How about you? What's

621
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 2: the weirdest place you've seen a serial killer story?

622
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 3: Uh?

623
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: You know, I think the Christmas season is another one. Yeah, Listen,

624
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: I remember Renting as a child, Uh Silent Night, Deadly Night,

625
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: like legendary as like not like a nine ten year

626
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: old because my friends told me it.

627
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 3: Was really scary. It was kind of scary, but.

628
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: It's a movie.

629
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: It's a very very I found the other things in

630
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: that movie that are weird much more troubling than that. Yes, yeah,

631
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: I feel like we should ask Carmen her favorite serial

632
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: killer movie and or TV show.

633
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I might calm and put it in the chat,

634
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: put it in the track.

635
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 3: Put it in the chat so we could get one.

636
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: And and I worry for Carmen to do that. I

637
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: will also silence of the Lambs all day everything. Oh yeah,

638
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: I mean sounds the lambs.

639
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: She's a silence of.

640
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 3: The Lamb's lover.

641
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: What can you say? I mean, who does? She also

642
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: loves long legs, so a lot of crossover.

643
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I'll just say, oh my god, Aaron

644
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: Shrek forever after And so with that, I'll just say

645
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy must be stopped. He's got to be type

646
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: this type of framing that puts the serial killer at

647
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: the scent of the story in a way that it

648
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: is sexy empisode, Yes, so exploitative, where it's like why

649
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: am I I don't want to unwind his mind?

650
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: No, I don't want to do that. I don't want

651
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: to know.

652
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: Like why he does it?

653
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 4: Like I don't want to see him imagining no neon

654
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: like Nazi concentration exactly.

655
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 2: Donna, don't say stop that, man.

656
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 4: But yeah, you can see we were so we were

657
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 4: so stressed about Monster that we made a whole episode,

658
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 4: So yeah, Ryan Murphy, stop that man.

659
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: Despicable.

660
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 4: But if you guys have any insights into why these

661
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 4: stories are such a big part of our culture and

662
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 4: how they infiltrate every part from you know, cheaply made

663
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 4: true crime to Martin Scorsese movies, join the discord hit

664
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 4: us up because I do think this is one of

665
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 4: the most interesting cultural conversations.

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Speaker 2: That is just going to keep on being had.

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Speaker 4: Next time on xtra Vision, we will be calling together

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Speaker 4: the group chat to talk about the new Triple A game,

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Speaker 4: Ghosts of Yote. We're the voice of Atsu Eric.

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Speaker 3: That's it for this episode. Next for listening.

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Speaker 1: Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young

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Speaker 1: and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 4: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.

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Speaker 3: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.

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Speaker 2: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.

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Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme

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Speaker 1: songs by Aaron Kaufman.

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Speaker 4: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and

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Speaker 4: Heidi Our discord moderator,