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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: One morning over coffee, she said, I know things about

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Speaker 2: the Watkins that would get them into very big trouble,

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Speaker 2: at which point her sister said, you cannot tell any

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Speaker 2: of this.

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Speaker 1: You could be in danger. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a

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Speaker 1: nonfiction author and journalism professor in Austin, Texas. I'm also

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Speaker 1: the co host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right,

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Speaker 1: and throughout my career, research for my many audio and

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Speaker 1: book projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words,

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Speaker 1: I sit down with the people I've met along the way,

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Speaker 1: amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and

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Speaker 1: reported on notorious true cases. This is about the choices

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Speaker 1: writers make, both good and bad, and it's a deep

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Speaker 1: dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. I know

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Speaker 1: this sounds like an old story. A woman goes missing

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Speaker 1: and it seems like a cover up. But when Shelley

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Speaker 1: Watkins's body was discovered in nineteen ninety three floating in

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Speaker 1: a Texas river, her murder really up into the town.

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Speaker 1: Of course, A Canna journalist, Carol Dawson, worked with my

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Speaker 1: buddy Wes Ferguson on the hit podcast The Unforgotten. Is

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Speaker 1: this your first podcast? Endeavor?

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Speaker 2: This is I've been a guest on podcasts before, but

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Speaker 2: I have never done a podcast before. So the act

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Speaker 2: of creating a podcast was just an entirely new concept

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Speaker 2: to me. I was not a path I ever thought

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Speaker 2: I would go down. I was very, very lucky because

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Speaker 2: I was working on a book that is the basis

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Speaker 2: for this podcast, and it's a nonfiction book obviously combination

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Speaker 2: out of true crime history and memoir about my hometown, Corsicana, Texas.

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Speaker 2: While I was working on that book, I sent the

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Speaker 2: first draft off to an agent in New York who

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Speaker 2: said this book would make a great podcast. I reported

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Speaker 2: that conversation to a couple of my dear friends, Sarah

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Speaker 2: Bird and Steve Harrigan.

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Speaker 1: Let's give contact. Sarah Bird, I think a gifted novelist

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Speaker 1: and Steve Harrigan a gifted historian sort of. I feel

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Speaker 1: like almost the unofficial historian of Texas history in some ways.

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Speaker 1: So these are friends with depth, is what you're saying. Well,

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Speaker 1: he's kind of official, you know.

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Speaker 2: After the ut Press published his History of Texas, which

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Speaker 2: is astonishing and is structured in a beautiful way. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just fabulous at any rate I talked with them.

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Speaker 2: I talked with two journalists friends, Joe Holly and Laura Taly,

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Speaker 2: and said, it's been suggested to me that I should

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Speaker 2: be turning this book into a podcast as well as

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Speaker 2: a book. And they said, you've got to talk to

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Speaker 2: Wes Ferguson. So I drafted an email with the header saying,

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Speaker 2: these friends, mutual friends of ours, have suggested I contact

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Speaker 2: you with this story. We met for lunch at the

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Speaker 2: Hyde Park Bar and Grill I started telling him the

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Speaker 2: story about this murder victim and then what happened to

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Speaker 2: her and then what followed that, And as West puts it,

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Speaker 2: I was in before the food hit the table because

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Speaker 2: it's such a twisty.

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Speaker 1: Twisty story. I mean, it's really bizarre. So the teas

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Speaker 1: to this story, because I definitely want to dive in now,

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Speaker 1: the teas to the story of the description that I

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Speaker 1: read was essentially, police know who did it? Police have

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Speaker 1: the evidence, and the question, you know, it's always good

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Speaker 1: when we do a nonfiction, especially with true crime nonfiction

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Speaker 1: books and nonfiction podcast is what is that question that

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Speaker 1: you we are posing at the beginning that you hope

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Speaker 1: to provide listeners or readers with an answer to by

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Speaker 1: the end. And it sounds like it's a not who

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Speaker 1: did it or the evidence that's lacking. It's really more like,

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Speaker 1: why has something not happened yet? Is that right? Am

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Speaker 1: I nailing matter? No?

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Speaker 2: I think that's absolutely correct. It is why has justice

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Speaker 2: been subverted in this particular case? Why has it taken

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Speaker 2: so long for the case severe back around to the

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Speaker 2: original pursuit in the original premise, And the answer to

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Speaker 2: that is quite complex and it's very very frustrating.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's dive right into those frustrations. Where does it

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Speaker 1: make sense to you? I want to know about the

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Speaker 1: place Corsicana. I've never been there before the time period

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Speaker 1: ninety three, and certainly we want to know about the victim,

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Speaker 1: Shelley Watkins, and what her life was like before she dies. Corsicana,

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Speaker 1: Texas is my hometown.

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Speaker 2: I was born there. I grew up there until I

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Speaker 2: went to boarding school in Dallas. That is where I

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Speaker 2: attended school. I grew up with the people involved in

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Speaker 2: this case, as did my siblings. Shelley Watkins came to

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Speaker 2: Corsicana in the nineteen eighties because she had moved to

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Speaker 2: Texas originally from Ohio, where she was born and grew

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Speaker 2: up in a family that was very middle class. Her

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Speaker 2: dad was a pharmacist. He wound up owning a pharmacy.

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Speaker 2: Eventually they moved to Michigan, where she attended high school.

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Speaker 2: After high school, she married her boyfriend, who was a musician,

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Speaker 2: and when they got married, they moved to Florida. In Florida,

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Speaker 2: she and her husband separated and divorced. She moved to Dallas,

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Speaker 2: where she got a job.

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Speaker 1: Working as a representative for a tool company, so Corsicana,

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Speaker 1: which is just fifty miles southeast of Dallas in her territory,

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Speaker 1: and Watkins Construction, which is owned by Jerry mcwatkins these days,

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Speaker 1: but at the time was a family business founded by

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Speaker 1: his father, Carmackwatkins was of course the perfect place to

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Speaker 1: call on to sell tools, or so she assumed she

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Speaker 1: got there. She had met Jerry's older brother, Ronnie, who

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Speaker 1: was ten years Jerry's senior, when she had called on him,

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Speaker 1: because he too had a construction and remodeling company, but

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Speaker 1: it was far more building oriented. Not know major sort

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Speaker 1: of text dot excavation and concrete work, and then eventually pipelines.

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Speaker 1: So while she was calling on these folks, Ronnie allegedly

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Speaker 1: brought her over to meet his father and his brother.

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Speaker 1: She and his brother Jerry immediately lighted each other's fires.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so she was an outsider making an incursion into

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Speaker 2: what is, after all, a very insular community. Corsicana is

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Speaker 2: a bubble. It is a very interesting town. In my book,

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Speaker 2: I call it the most Gothic small town in America,

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Speaker 2: and I have very good reason for saying that, But

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Speaker 2: it is, oddly enough, very enclosed. I've said that people

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Speaker 2: born in Corsicana quite often get born with homing devices

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Speaker 2: in their brains, so that even after they've gone to

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Speaker 2: college elsewhere, or even spent an entire adult career in

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Speaker 2: another place, they wind up coming back. It's a deeply

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Speaker 2: rooted place. It was the site of the very first

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Speaker 2: oil boom west of the Mississippi in eighteen ninety four,

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Speaker 2: which means it has a lot of old money. Now,

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Speaker 2: the Watkins were not old money. Carmack Watkins was what

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Speaker 2: they call a dirt farmer. They were a rural family

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Speaker 2: living in a little, tiny agrarian community outside of Corsicana

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Speaker 2: until in nineteen fifty seven Carmack decided to found a

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Speaker 2: construction company. And he started his company with one single

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Speaker 2: backo and got his first contract with what is now

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Speaker 2: text dot, the Texas Highway Department, fixing a bridge. From there,

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Speaker 2: he grew the company and grew it and grew it,

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Speaker 2: and he wound up making a great deal of money

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Speaker 2: in one way or another.

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Speaker 1: You say that a little ominously.

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Speaker 2: I say it ominously because he was very interested in

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Speaker 2: acquiring vast amounts of real estate, which he did in

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Speaker 2: the course of his life. One of our interviewees referred

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Speaker 2: to him as he was known in the law enforcement

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Speaker 2: community as the Godfather. So that has certain suggestions. We've

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Speaker 2: heard a lot of things that we haven't included in

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Speaker 2: the podcast because of course, many informants prefer to remain

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Speaker 2: off the record or anonymous. At any rate, Carmack did

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Speaker 2: very well. He had three children, all of whom were

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Speaker 2: born and brought up to a certain point in that

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Speaker 2: little tiny country community and farmhouse, and then eventually he

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Speaker 2: built a house in town. And by the time Jerry

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Speaker 2: Mack started junior high as it was as middle school,

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Speaker 2: was known. Then they had moved into town, so they

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Speaker 2: were no longer taking the bus into the elementary school

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Speaker 2: from that rural community from whence they'd come. So Jerry Mack,

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Speaker 2: the youngest of the three siblings, grew up a very

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Speaker 2: sort of I call him the crown prince of the family,

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Speaker 2: and he was adored by his mother and essentially grew

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Speaker 2: up with a level of affluence that the first two

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Speaker 2: siblings did not enjoy, even though his older sister was

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Speaker 2: only two years his senior.

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Speaker 1: So Corsicana in this time period we're starting with kind

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Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety three where Shelley ends up becoming a victim. Here,

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Speaker 1: what is Corsicana like? Is this a big small town.

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Speaker 1: I know you said there's a lot of old money.

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Speaker 1: The Watkinston have it. But he grew up, Jerry grew

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Speaker 1: up in privilege. But you know, obviously this is still

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Speaker 1: sort of like blue collar area. Is this a place

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Speaker 1: that welcomes strangers, new people? You know, what's the feel

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Speaker 1: of the town at the time.

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Speaker 2: That answer would be no. Shelley, I think was always

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Speaker 2: regarded as an outsider. Corsicaina is like that. As I said,

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Speaker 2: it's very insular, it is a bubble. There is a

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Speaker 2: lot of old money, there is a lot of blue collar.

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Speaker 2: There is an interesting convergence between the two, and that

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Speaker 2: starts occurring, you know, from first grade, elementary school on.

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Speaker 2: So in an odd sense, it's very democratic in the

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Speaker 2: way that the different levels of society weave in back

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Speaker 2: and forth with one another. But in another sense, that

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Speaker 2: old regime, the old establishment, does keep itself aloof for

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Speaker 2: the most part. There are exceptions. For instance, you know,

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Speaker 2: one oil moneyed Prince Lane can marry the daughter of

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Speaker 2: a hairdresser, as did happen and wind up sustaining a

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Speaker 2: long marriage and having children and so reorganizing socio economic levels.

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Speaker 2: Happens within Corsicana, But there's not a lot of outside

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Speaker 2: connection to the rest of the world.

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Speaker 1: Jerry, is he a big deal in high school growing up? No,

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Speaker 1: he was not.

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Speaker 2: From what I understand, he was reasonably quiet. He was

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Speaker 2: in my younger brother's class. He did not have a

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Speaker 2: wide circle of friends. I have understood from someone who

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Speaker 2: literally grew up going in and out of the Watkins

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Speaker 2: farmhouse when Jerry and his sister were children out in

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Speaker 2: that small rural community, that he was very much a

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Speaker 2: bit of a hermit as a child that he just

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in his room. Jerry was

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Speaker 2: not a big social deal high school. He was not

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Speaker 2: a big athlete. No, he was very interested in and

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Speaker 2: trained in the machinery that his father had invested in

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Speaker 2: for the company. So that was really his deal was

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Speaker 2: going after and working with machinery from the time he

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Speaker 2: was quite young.

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Speaker 1: Did he date? He said, he's quiet, But was he

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Speaker 1: sort of charming dater? Well, he was good looking. Okay,

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Speaker 1: he did date in high school. He had a high

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Speaker 1: school sweetheart, and then I think he had a second

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Speaker 1: high school sweetheart. And then he wound up marrying at

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Speaker 1: a very young age to a girl who was even

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Speaker 1: younger than he was, and she was his first wife. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Did they end up with any kids or No?

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Speaker 2: That marriage did not last long because Jerry had an

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Speaker 2: eye for the ladies. The marriage and the relationship broke

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Speaker 2: up because he was still seeing his former high school

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Speaker 2: sweetheart and other girls as well.

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Speaker 1: So on the day that Shelley meets Jerry, it's Jerry's

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Speaker 1: older brother, Ronnie who introduces them. Is that right, That's

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Speaker 1: what I've been told? Okay, and Sparks fly, He's good looking,

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Speaker 1: she's beautiful, you know all of that. How does their

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Speaker 1: relationship proceed once they meet? Is this a fast thing

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Speaker 1: or is there a lot of courting involved? Apparently it

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Speaker 1: was very swift. They just instantly fell for each other.

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Speaker 1: She went out to lunch with Jerry and his father, Carmac,

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Speaker 1: and shortly after that, I mean in a very short time,

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Speaker 1: they were living together and it wasn't too many months

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Speaker 1: after that that they got married. So Shelley became his

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Speaker 1: third wife. What are the ages of these two people

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Speaker 1: at the time.

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Speaker 2: Shelley was a year younger than Jerry, and Jerry was

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Speaker 2: thirty two at the time. Now is Jerry's mom in

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Speaker 2: the picture Carmac's wife?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yes, okay, sounds like a story. As my mom

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Speaker 1: would say, it is my understanding by people who prefer

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Speaker 1: to remain off the record, but were close to the

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Speaker 1: family and close observers, some of whom had very close

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Speaker 1: experience of this.

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Speaker 2: Jerry's mother never liked any of his wives. She never

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Speaker 2: was happy with any of his wives. Now I know

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Speaker 2: quite a bit about his mother just through other people.

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Speaker 2: I never personally, I think I met her, but I

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Speaker 2: never really knew her, and we didn't cross paths, but

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Speaker 2: she was very much a classic domestic housewife when they

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Speaker 2: were children. She made all their clothes, She canned a

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Speaker 2: lot of their food, she did all the cooking. She was,

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Speaker 2: from what I understand, quite subservient to her husband, who

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Speaker 2: also had a reputation as a ladies' man. She was,

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Speaker 2: from what I can gauge, repressed and repressive for her

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Speaker 2: own daughter who grew up.

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Speaker 1: In my class. How many kids are in the Watkins family? Three? Okay,

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Speaker 1: two boys and a girl. Okay, that's correct. And the

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Speaker 1: girl was in between the boys and you knew the

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Speaker 1: daughter then I did. I don't know the answer to this,

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Speaker 1: but was she involved with the podcast at all? Or No?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not, And I informed my partner Wes that I

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Speaker 2: did not want to contact her. She has moved away

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Speaker 2: from Texas. She was always a very quiet person. I

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Speaker 2: did not know her well. Some of my good friends

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Speaker 2: have been very close to her. I think she essentially

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Speaker 2: got the short end of the stick no matter what

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Speaker 2: in that family. She has gone through a lot of

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Speaker 2: health issues. She wound up literally holding the babies after

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Speaker 2: Shelley's death for a certain amount of time while Jerry

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Speaker 2: lived elsewhere. He went and stayed with his parents. The

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Speaker 2: two little girls stayed with her after Shelly's death, and

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Speaker 2: she had to contend with a lot, including reporters who

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Speaker 2: would lurk outside her home waiting for her own son

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Speaker 2: to leave the house to go to school, where they

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Speaker 2: would sort of pounce and ask questions. It was a

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Speaker 2: very traumatic time. And she is also.

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Speaker 1: The person who became the main caregiver for both parents

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Speaker 1: when they started to decline in the past few years.

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Speaker 1: So she wants to distance herself from anything to do

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Speaker 1: with this.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, absolutely yes, and I absolutely respect that. I did

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Speaker 2: not even give her a call, and I said to Wes,

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Speaker 2: we must not contact Janie. We must not, because I

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Speaker 2: understand enough of the dynamic around that entire situation to

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Speaker 2: know that not only would she not cooperate, it would

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Speaker 2: be harmful in her, hurtful to her. Yeah, in ways

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Speaker 2: that I can't condone.

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Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me a little bit of I know,

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Speaker 1: you know Brian Burrow, who's a Texas writer that is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I've had Brian on a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: and one of the times he talked about his audible book,

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Speaker 1: which you know detailed. I don't know if you listened

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Speaker 1: to it, but it detailed the story of how he

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Speaker 1: went to high school in Temple with a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: He didn't, of course, know it was a serial killer

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Speaker 1: at the time, and he journeys back to Temple where

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Speaker 1: he's from, and you know, draws comparisons between himself and

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Speaker 1: this young man, and I remember asking him, it must

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Speaker 1: be difficult for you to go back. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not like me going to Austin and doing a story

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Speaker 1: in Austin. We're going back to a smaller place where

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Speaker 1: the wounds are still really raw. And your story is

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Speaker 1: not that old. It's only ninety three. I say that

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Speaker 1: because I was in high school in ninety three, so

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Speaker 1: it really doesn't feel very old to me. So that

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Speaker 1: must not have been easy for you. There must have

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Speaker 1: just been a lot that you couldn't cross you and

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Speaker 1: had to make boundaries for yourself.

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Speaker 2: The only boundary I have made is about Janice. Okay,

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why I feel deeply connected to

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Speaker 2: this story because I had been living overseas. I was

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Speaker 2: living in New Zealand when this occurred, and eventually I

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Speaker 2: moved back to the States and back to Texas and

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Speaker 2: straight to Austin of course, of course, and my father's

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Speaker 2: law office was in Corsicana, as it still is. And

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Speaker 2: I found out about this case and I was electrified.

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Speaker 2: I just went, I cannot believe this has happened in

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Speaker 2: our hometown with these results. It's just really shocking to me.

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Speaker 2: And I talked to my dad, because my dad's law

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Speaker 2: firm represented Jerry mcwatkins. My dad was at this time

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Speaker 2: not only still practicing law, but he was a law

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Speaker 2: professor at Baylor Law School. I said, look, this is

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Speaker 2: one hell of a story. And I am really upset

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Speaker 2: that this happened to a woman who entered Corsicana as

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Speaker 2: an innocent essentially and then wound up in this situation

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Speaker 2: and having this happen to her as an outsider. And

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Speaker 2: I'm outraged, and I'm outraged that you guys were representing

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Speaker 2: Jerry macwatkins. Well, it was actually my father's law partner

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Speaker 2: who had formerly been his student, who was Jerry Mac's

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Speaker 2: civil attorney, and who then became the person Jerry mac

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Speaker 2: came to first after this happened.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of connections. That's why I take it

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Speaker 1: to heart, or that's one of the reasons I take

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Speaker 1: it to heart. So at the time, my dad said

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Speaker 1: to me, Carol, you can't write about this. I know

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Speaker 1: you and you know I'd had books published, they had

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Speaker 1: been translated into Whether a Language is published Overseas.

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Speaker 2: They were all novels at that time. And I said, Dad, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I accept that I cannot write about law firm business.

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Speaker 1: Even though you don't like this situation.

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Speaker 2: And you've made that clear to me that this was

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Speaker 2: not your doing, that this was your law partner's doing.

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Speaker 2: But I still am just absolutely riveted by this weird

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Speaker 2: plot line, this story. I want to write a mystery.

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Speaker 2: I've never written a mystery before. I really want to

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Speaker 2: write one. I read them all the time, and this

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Speaker 2: would make a great plot for a mystery. I want

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Speaker 2: to fictionalize everything, move it to another town, change the circumstances,

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Speaker 2: change the cast of characters. But I want to use

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Speaker 2: this plot. And Dad said, Okay, well, in that case,

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Speaker 2: go talk to Glenn. And Glenn was his law partner

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Speaker 2: who was very present throughout this entire case, even though

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Speaker 2: he was not the criminal defense mouthpiece for the case. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so I did, and I had a long afternoon of

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Speaker 2: sitting with Glenn in his dear ranch about eight miles

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Speaker 2: out of Corsicana that was called the Sanctuary, while Glenn

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Speaker 2: sat there smoking cigarette after cigarette after cigarette and just

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Speaker 2: telling me the whole inside story because he enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: And then you're back to a nonfiction book, right, I am. Now,

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Speaker 1: did everybody in the Watkins family like Shelley? And how

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Speaker 1: did Shelley's family feel about Jerry and the Watkins family.

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Speaker 1: I think that Ronnie could not stand Shelley. Oh why.

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Speaker 1: Shelley was a very direct person. Oh okay.

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Speaker 2: She was someone who would always speak her mind. I've

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Speaker 2: heard this about her over and over. She was also

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Speaker 2: someone who absolutely refused to acknowledge hierarchies. She was not

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Speaker 2: interested did in the old social regime. Of course, Againna,

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Speaker 2: she wasn't interested in trying to enter that or social climb.

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Speaker 2: She made her own friends. She was interested in charity work,

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Speaker 2: and she did a lot of it and was active

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Speaker 2: in that sense. But she was also always willing to

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Speaker 2: get her hands dirty. One friend of hers describes coming

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Speaker 2: over to see her, and there she is out in

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Speaker 2: the front yard alongside the guy who her husband, Jerry

358
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Speaker 2: had sent over to dig holes for trees to plant

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Speaker 2: trees in their front yard, and she's out there just

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Speaker 2: digging away, just literally getting her hands dirty. That was typical,

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Speaker 2: very typical behavior. Most of all, she was quite outspoken.

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Speaker 2: She was a firecracker. This kind of behavior would not

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Speaker 2: have gone down well in the Watkins family. That was

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Speaker 2: something they were not used to. And I think eventually

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Speaker 2: that also really caused a very different kind of sparks

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Speaker 2: in her marriage with Jerry.

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Speaker 1: Well I had thought about that. I mean, you had

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Speaker 1: described Jerry as a lady's man and blah blah, but

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Speaker 1: really ultimately sounds like he was quiet and passive, and

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Speaker 1: so maybe he needed a woman with Shelley's personality to

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Speaker 1: sort of balance him out or is that not right?

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Speaker 1: Maybe at first, so it sounds like maybe sparks flew

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Speaker 1: at the beginning. And then did Shelley know that he

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Speaker 1: was sleeping around? No, not at first or not for

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Speaker 1: a long while.

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Speaker 2: I think I think their conflicts and arguments were of

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Speaker 2: a different nature from everything I've been told. And I

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Speaker 2: think that the fact that she started learning things about

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Speaker 2: the Watkins business and about the Watkins family that would

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Speaker 2: have jeopardized Watkins's freedom had they become known was an issue.

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Speaker 2: And I say that because she visited her sister in

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Speaker 2: Atlanta a few months before her death, and she and

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Speaker 2: her sister, Sandy were very very close. Sandy, originally, you know,

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Speaker 2: a Midwestern girl, had been living in Atlanta throughout her

385
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Speaker 2: marriage and adult life, as had their younger brother, Rob Salter,

386
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Speaker 2: who also worked and lived in Atlanta. So Shelley would

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Speaker 2: go back to visit her siblings and especially her sister

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Speaker 2: in Atlanta, and they would come to visit her of

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Speaker 2: course againa And during this last visit that Shelley made

390
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Speaker 2: to her sisters, one morning over coffee, she said, I

391
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Speaker 2: know things about the Watkins that would get them into

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Speaker 2: very big trouble. At which point her sister, who I

393
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Speaker 2: think was always very much a sort of peacemaker and

394
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 2: liked to keep the boat afloat and keep everything on

395
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Speaker 2: an even keel, said, oh, Shelley, you can never I

396
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Speaker 2: don't want to hear anymore.

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Speaker 1: And you cannot tell. You cannot tell any of this.

398
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Speaker 1: You've got a good, strong marriage, You've got two small children.

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Speaker 2: These people are very powerful. You could be in danger

400
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Speaker 2: if you talked about this. You cannot talk about this anymore.

401
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 2: Sandy essentially sealed that off. I mean, Shelley's attitude was

402
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Speaker 2: why the heck not? I mean, she was not one

403
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Speaker 2: to stifle her opinions. I'm surprised she married into a

404
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: family like that. I'm sure she must have sensed immediately

405
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Speaker 2: that this was a strong willed family that probably you know,

406
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: ran on a certain set of rules and women were

407
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: meant to be, you know, deferential towards men.

408
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: If she's looking at her mother in law as a guide,

409
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Speaker 1: I wonder what drew her in Besides you know, Jerry's hot.

410
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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what else there would have been.

411
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Speaker 2: Judging for what I've learned about Shelley, she would not

412
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Speaker 2: have looked at her mother in law, Norma Jean Watkins,

413
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Speaker 2: and thought, oh, she's a guide. I think she would

414
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: have said, oh, well, but that's not me. That's not

415
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Speaker 2: who I am, and I'm not going to live that way.

416
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Speaker 2: And in fact, every week, Norma Jean would prepare a

417
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Speaker 2: dinner for the males of the family, Carmack, Ronnie, and Jerry,

418
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Speaker 2: and they would go to the parents' house one night

419
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Speaker 2: a week and have this male conference, this male meeting

420
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Speaker 2: over dinner. Women were excluded Shelley didn't like that. She

421
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Speaker 2: thought it was absolute bullshit that this should be happening.

422
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Speaker 2: And she said, I want to be there too, I

423
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Speaker 2: want to be included. Well that was off the table,

424
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: that there was no question of that happening, and she

425
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Speaker 2: really resented it, and she raised a stink about it.

426
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Speaker 2: She was somebody who was willing to raise a stink

427
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Speaker 2: about things that she objected to or that she thought

428
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: were inequitable. She was very friendly to everybody she met,

429
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 2: and as one person has told me, it didn't matter

430
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Speaker 2: if it was somebody working in a store or if

431
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 2: it was a homeless person without shoes on a street corner.

432
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: She was always willing to be very ready and friendly

433
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 2: and to extend herself. She was very generous. She was

434
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: not the usual Corsic canon.

435
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: Well, they have a couple of kids, right, does that

436
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: happen quickly after they get married? The first one came

437
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: along pretty quickly after they got married. Okay, so two

438
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: young kids? Is that what she said? Yes? So when

439
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: do we think things take a turn in the marriage?

440
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: How quickly before we know that Shelley disappeared? I think

441
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: that a lot of conflict had already been brewing before

442
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: the second daughter, Lane was actually born, because I've heard

443
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: about arguments that became quite inflated and explosive before that

444
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: ever happened, and I think things just got fierier and fierrier.

445
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: Lane herself was only a year and a half old

446
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: when Shelley was murdered, and that was she's the second daughter,

447
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: Ashley was four shortly to term five when Shelley died,

448
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: she was six weeks short of her birthday. Set up

449
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: all of this, how do we even discover that she

450
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: is a murder victim? This is what happened.

451
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 2: There had been obviously tension between Jerry and Shelley for

452
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: a while. Other people had observed it. Other people had

453
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: heard arguments. They had a lake house on Cedar Creek

454
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 2: Reservoir Lake that was about a thirty minute drive from

455
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 2: Corsicana itself from where they lived, and they often held

456
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: parties out there, big family parties, big collection of friends

457
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: on holidays, especially Memorial Day, Labor Day, fourth of July,

458
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: and that lake was a big recreational lake where a

459
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: lot of people would go and had properties there, so

460
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: they were having their usual lake house retreat that day.

461
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: On Labor Day of nineteen ninety three, September sixth. During

462
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: the course of the day, as witnesses would later retell

463
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 2: to law enforcement, Shelley did not seem herself. She seemed

464
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: very nervy. She was drinking a lot. She seemed agitated.

465
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: Two of the people who were president at that party

466
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: were her supposed close friend Kay Bryant and Kay's husband Dennis.

467
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: They had been neighbors formerly who lived just up the

468
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: road from Jerry and Shelley. By that time, they had

469
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: been living for several months in the town of Corsicana

470
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: itself instead of out at Beaton Lake Estates, where Shelley

471
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: and her husband lived, so they were no longer neighbors,

472
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: and yet Kay espoused to be one of Shelley's very

473
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: best friends, very closest friends. Shelley had a trio of

474
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: close friends, and Kay was one of them, and they

475
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: did a lot of socializing with Jerry and Kay, as

476
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: did other friends that day at the lake they were present.

477
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: Dennis actually was working for Jerry and his company as

478
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: a sort of on call carpenter and fix her handiman

479
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: at the time, and Kay herself was a stewardess, a

480
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: flight attendant at American Airlines so they were out at

481
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: the lake along with this group of friends, and Shelley

482
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 2: became more and more agitated at the course of the day.

483
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: There was supposedly a big argument at the end of

484
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: the day. At the end of the evening between Shelley

485
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: and Ronnie, the older brother, who was also present with

486
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: his wife and teenage daughter Brandy. Shelley and Brandy had

487
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: gone out on jet skis, supposedly run out of gas.

488
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: They were out after dark. This upset Ronnie. This was

489
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: the reason given for the argument at the lake house

490
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: that day. In fact, I have been told by other

491
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: people who prefer to remain off the record, that the

492
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: big tension was between Jerry and Shelley, and was probably

493
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: about the fact that Jerry at that time seemed to

494
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: be having an affair with Kay. So at the end

495
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: of the long day in which a lot of alcohol socializing,

496
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: dining out at a local restaurant with the entire party,

497
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: where a lot of witnesses saw them there, Jerry took

498
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: both of the little girls, put them in his vehicle

499
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: and went home, leaving Shelley out of the lake. Now

500
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: we don't know how Shelley got home. We have never

501
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: been able to determine that absolutely. But one way or another,

502
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: she got back home somehow, and she didn't get home

503
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: until eleven o'clock that night. At that time, both little

504
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: girls were, of course tucked in bed, and Jerry came

505
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 2: outside to the garage to talk with Shelley. They had

506
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: a big altercation there, and this is according to Jerry's

507
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: own testimony. During the course of that altercation, Shelley made

508
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: it clear to Jerry that she was leaving him. She

509
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 2: was going to wake both the little girls up and

510
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: put them in the car and take them with her,

511
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: and this was it.

512
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: This was the end.

513
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: At which point Jerry professedly snatched her car keys away

514
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: from her so that she could not get into her

515
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: car and leave her car was a one year old

516
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: quite BMW. He snatched her car keys at which point,

517
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: according to Jerry, it's eleven thirty at night, and Shelley

518
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: stomps off into the darkness on foot in this area

519
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: outside the city limits, adjacent to I forty five, which

520
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: cuts through the town, and it's never seen a love again.

521
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: Where does he say he thinks she would even go?

522
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: That just seems odd, He doesn't.

523
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: He says that at that point what he did was

524
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 2: to go back into the house and go to bed

525
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 2: and go to sleep. Unfortunately for him, there were neighbors

526
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: who were awake throughout the night and who saw all

527
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: the lights on at the house and also observed activity

528
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: cars coming and going.

529
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: His story is she leaves in a huff. He has

530
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: no idea where she is, right on foot in an

531
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: area she's not that particularly familiar with.

532
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: Right, Well, she's familiar enough to have lived there for

533
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: several years in that house. But that house is in

534
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: this tiny little development outside of town.

535
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nowhere to go. Essentially, there's nowhere to go. Okay,

536
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: how long is it before he says my wife's missing?

537
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: Is it twenty four hours or longer than that? According

538
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: to the first report that was published in the paper

539
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: that same night, he called his close friend, a policeman

540
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: named Louis Peylos, with whom he had grown up, although

541
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: Louis is eight years a senior in that same little

542
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: rural community far on the other side of Corsicana, and said,

543
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: Shelley's gone. She's walked off. This is what Lewis at

544
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: first said. That does not.

545
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: Accord well with Jerry's story that he went inside and

546
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 2: went to bed and went to sleep. At any rate.

547
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: The next morning he makes some phone calls. One of

548
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: the calls he makes is at six forty five am

549
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: to Kay Bryant in Corsicana. She is no longer a neighbor,

550
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 2: and he says, Shelley's gone. She was telling me that

551
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: she was going to leave me and take the girls.

552
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: This is important about taking the girls. So I stopped

553
00:34:58,520 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: her and I took her car keys.

554
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: She's gone.

555
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 2: This is what Kay later reported in the search warrant

556
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: AFFI David to law enforcement. He then also called the

557
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: immediate neighbors and said, is Shelley there? And they all went,

558
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: huh no, no, she's not here. These are the neighbors

559
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: who lived directly across the street. I need to add

560
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 2: that the Walkins home was literally the first house on

561
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: the right as you left the I forty five service

562
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: road to enter Beaten Lake Estates, so it was very

563
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: close to I forty five. Then nothing happens in terms

564
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: of reports, any sort of excitement, anything except among concerned

565
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: friends of Shelley's who start saying, where's Shelley, Where is

566
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 2: she gone?

567
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: What do you mean? She stomped off in the night.

568
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: That's insane. She would never do that. She would never

569
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: leave her kids.

570
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: She would never walk away from you unless she came

571
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: over to my house across the street or to this

572
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,479
Speaker 2: house of her other friend across the street. Nobody seen her.

573
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: Could she have gone out into the mesquite brush. We

574
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: need to look, We need to form search parties. Somebody

575
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 2: needs to be searching for her. And Jerry kept saying, Oh,

576
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: she's just gone off somewhere. She'll show up. He told

577
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 2: people that at his workplace, as well as the neighbors

578
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: who grew concerned that first day he went into work

579
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: and that's what he was saying. The next morning, he

580
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: drove Shelley's car, the fairly new white BMW, to Dallas,

581
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: where he got it completely detailed and brand new tires

582
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: put on it. The day after that, the car was

583
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: driven by his brother to College Station one hundred and

584
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: twenty six miles in the other direction to a dealership,

585
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: where the dealer was asked to replace the missing trunk

586
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: panels and carpeting that had already been removed from the

587
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: back of the car because, according to Jerry, his wife

588
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 2: had spilled paint in the back of the car. And

589
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: so she was away, and when she got back, he

590
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: wanted to make sure that she would be nicely surprised

591
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: by the new carpeting and trunk panels. We have interviewed

592
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: the guy who was in charge of the service area

593
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: of that car dealership and who has never forgotten this

594
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: car coming in because he had never before seen a

595
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: car that was already stripped out. If we're assuming, I mean,

596
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: we're going to assume that they're connected to this to

597
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: her disappearance, this seems like there would be better ways

598
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: to do. I mean, why not take it to a

599
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: chop shop than just get rid of it and just

600
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: say it was stolen or leave it in a bad area.

601
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. The removing the tires, the idea that

602
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: they would be able to trace tire tracks and they

603
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: needed new tires, is that kind of it? And these

604
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: days they'd be able to pull whatever the organic material

605
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: is from in the track to figure out if they

606
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: went to a particular kind of park or a forest.

607
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: So still, it seems a.

608
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 2: Lot chemical analysis in the gravel, you know, that would

609
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: be caught up in the tires. I mean, so you

610
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: have to remember, as I said before, Jerry's closest friend,

611
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: or one of his very closest friends, was a Corsicana

612
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 2: police officer named Lewis Pelos. Lewis had until recently been

613
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: the interim police chief in Corsicana while cours Kana went

614
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: underwent some major racial upheaval due to the death of

615
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: a young man in the hands of the police. So

616
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: all that summer long, Corsicana had been having riots, serious

617
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: unrest marches from the KKK and the Dallas Black Panthers.

618
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: Huge deal. All of this happened right in the middle

619
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: of all that racial unrest. Lewis had already heard that

620
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 2: Shelley was missing, but he did not file a missing

621
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: person's report until the following Thursday, after the car had

622
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: gone to College station and gotten the trunklinings, etc. Replaced,

623
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 2: at which point he filed a missing person's report through

624
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: the Corsicana police system, but not using the usual protocol,

625
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: which was to write it up and send it to records,

626
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: who would then register and circulate this missing person's report

627
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: and then send it on through the proper pathways. Lewis

628
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 2: did all that himself. He was no longer the interim

629
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: police chief because a brand new police chief had been

630
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: hired from outside the community because of the racial unrest.

631
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: Whether he resented that or not, we will never know,

632
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: But he did not inform his superior that Shelley was missing,

633
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: and in fact it was not a and within the

634
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: jurisdiction of the police department. It was a county matter

635
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 2: because it was.

636
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: Outside the city limits of course, at cana Wow.

637
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 2: So it was not until the following Sunday, a week

638
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: after Shelley had vanished, that the police chief found out

639
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: that she was missing it all, at which point he

640
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: blew a gasket and he was, as he states it

641
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: in our podcast in our interviews with him, he was

642
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 2: absolutely livid with Lewis. He immediately turned the case over

643
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: to the Sheriff's department of the county, Navarro County, and

644
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 2: they immediately started investigating, checking with the two little businesses

645
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: up and.

646
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: Down that area of I forty five to see if

647
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: they had seen anything of Shelley that night, checking to

648
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: see where she could have gone, checking all the motels

649
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: to see if she had registered somewhere. Her credit cards

650
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: had not been used at all, Her purse was missing,

651
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 1: she had evaporated, she had disappeared. When is she finally

652
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: discovered and how because this is just awful. I mean,

653
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: the discovery of where she is is just awful.

654
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: Twenty four hours later, three fishermen were fishing in the

655
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 2: Trinity River, not terribly far from this one bridge that

656
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: bisects the two counties, because Navara County is on one

657
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 2: side of the Trinity River and Henderson County, the county

658
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: seat of which is Athens, Texas, is on the other

659
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 2: side of the river on this bridge. And the bridge

660
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: is not terribly far from the little farmhouse where Jerry

661
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: grew up until his thirteenth year, and where his cop

662
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: friend pay Loss had also been born and grown up.

663
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: Three fishermen are fishing in that part of the Trinity

664
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: when all of a sudden they happened to see in

665
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: the evening light this package that's drifting towards them, and

666
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 2: they don't know what it is, so they hook it

667
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 2: and they pull it towards where they are, and they

668
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: had been on the Henderson County side of the river,

669
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: and they discover that it is a woman's body wrapped

670
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 2: in black plastic construction tarp and sealed all the way

671
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: round with silver duct tape and chained and roped to

672
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 2: two concrete construction blocks, two cinder blocks, and the body

673
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: has risen from where it obviously had been dropped in

674
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 2: and anchored under the surface of the trinity. Wow, because

675
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: decomp gases have finally brought it to the surface.

676
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 1: I don't think people understand that. I talked to Paul

677
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: Holes on Buried Bones about that. Sometimes, you know, like

678
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: I mean, even even concrete weighing it down. When your

679
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: body decomposes and it fills with gas, it pushes it

680
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: up to the surface. It just does. It's very powerful.

681
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 1: So I don't think people think that through sometimes when

682
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: they think water is going to be the perfect way

683
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: and the personal just sink to the bottom and that's it,

684
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: they almost always come to the top, guess, And in

685
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: this particular case, it could have been avoided. Shelley was

686
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: a very tiny woman.

687
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: She was not a large woman at all, and so

688
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure they assumed this is going to take care

689
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, they obviously they being whoever killed her,

690
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: and whoever then helped the killer dispose of her body

691
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: by preparing it so carefully.

692
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: They had obviously received really.

693
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: Good, almost professionally you might say, forensic advice. Except for

694
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: one detail and that is if they had penetrated the

695
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 2: abdominal cavity with some sharp object, those decomp gases could

696
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: have been released and the body would not have surfaced. Okay,

697
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: so she is discovered, and I am assuming her brother

698
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 2: and sister are just wrecked in Georgia and Atlanta, right.

699
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: And her mother and her father and her grandmother who

700
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: lives in Florida. They are all freaking out because she

701
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: has vanished. They don't know where she is.

702
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: They have been calling and calling and calling constantly. At first,

703
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: Jerry had called her sister and let Sandy know that

704
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: Shelley was missing. But then after that crickets. So they're frantic.

705
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 2: They're absolutely frantic. And then finally after Shelley's body is

706
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 2: discovered on this Monday evening, a week and a day

707
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: after she vanished, and the authorities have been alerted and

708
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: her body is taken to Dallas to the medical examiner

709
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: there for autopsy, and her cause of death is being

710
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: analyzed and she has been identified with through dental records.

711
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: You know, absolutely ascertained this is Shelley Watkins. Finally, on Wednesday,

712
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: Sandy gets a phone call from Carmack, Jerry's father and

713
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: she answers the phone, and she has put in call

714
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: after call to Watkin's construction, to Jerry, to Carmack, to

715
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 2: the home, everybody that she could talk with, and has

716
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: gotten nothing. Carmak finally calls her, and she picks up

717
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 2: the phone and answers it. Right is her own six

718
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: year old daughter, who has just started first grade, is

719
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 2: entering the house from her day at school, and who

720
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: sees her mother answer the phone and sees her mother's

721
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 2: face as Carmack says to Sandy, goddamn, they found the body.

722
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: And that's how Sandy finds out what's happened to her sister.

723
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: That's awful and she is devastated. And her daughter, Courtney,

724
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 2: who is now a surgeon at Chicago Medical Center, has

725
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: been influenced her entire life, has been shaped her entire

726
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 2: life by this moment in her life when she saw

727
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: her mother absolutely cave and heard a sound come from

728
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: her mother that she'd never heard before.

729
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: Have they figured out at any point a cause of

730
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,959
Speaker 1: death for Shelley? Oh? Yeah.

731
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 2: The autopsy report was quite conclusive, even though the state

732
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: of decomposition made some things difficult. She had been struck

733
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: on the head violently a minimum of eight times on

734
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 2: the back of her head, so that she did not

735
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: actually have a skull fracture. But we have interviewed the

736
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: current medical examiner extensively who analyzed the entire autopsy report

737
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 2: for us, and he said that he thinks probably she

738
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: had a brain bleeds.

739
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: So is the new sheriff, I mean must be of

740
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: course alarmed by this. First of all, he has you know,

741
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: payless not doing what he was supposed to do. And

742
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: now this turns out to be a murder victim who

743
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: has a tough relationship with her husband, and she's the

744
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: mother of two small children and her family is out

745
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 1: of town. Are the Watkins family immediately suspects in this case?

746
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: In short, yes, at this point it's not a new share.

747
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: He was a new sheriff, he'd only been a sheriff

748
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: for eight months. But the police chief was the real

749
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: newbie got it and he had already turned it over

750
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: to the county, so it wasn't his case. So they

751
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: immediately start asking questions in the twenty four hours if

752
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: they had the case. But the irony is that after

753
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: her body was discovered, it suddenly became the jurisdiction of

754
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: the next County over. Oh yeah, because the bridge, stupid bridge, right,

755
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: not just the bridge, but for the simple reason that

756
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: these three fishermen towed her over to the Henderson County side.

757
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: I think that at that point.

758
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 2: In fact, I know for a fact because I've talked

759
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: to someone who was working there. The entire Navara County

760
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: Sheriff's Department breathed a huge sire of relief because the

761
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 2: level of nepotism and influence that would have been present

762
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 2: had they had to continue investigating this case on their own,

763
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 2: would have been appalling.

764
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: Because Corsicana is in Navara, right county. Corsicana is the

765
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 1: county seat of Navara County. Does Henderson County have any

766
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: strong ties to the Watkins family only in the sense

767
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: that the Watkins, you know, do jobs there, construction jobs

768
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: there from time to time. Okay, so we have Henderson

769
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: now in charge, and the Watkins family's response to all

770
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: of this is what Jerry says. We got into an

771
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: argument and she took off, and I really don't know

772
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: anything else after that, and there's no physical proof of anything,

773
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: so that's it correct.

774
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 2: So what happens after that is that the circumstantial evidence

775
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: starts mounting up the fact that he'd already gotten the

776
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: car grooms the way he did, the fact that he

777
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: went to two different cities in order to get that,

778
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 2: taken care of the fact that she wasn't reported missing

779
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 2: for so long, the fact that, you know, after vanishing

780
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 2: so utterly, his explanation for what probably happened to her

781
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 2: was that she must have gotten picked up by somebody

782
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 2: on I forty five and they did this to her,

783
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 2: which happens because the I forty five killings are famous.

784
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and that happens in this section, not in

785
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: this section. And therefore nobody, because this was before viper

786
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: got established with the FBI, nobody was cross communicating about

787
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: the serial deaths happening in that part of I forty

788
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: five and this particular killing which happened right next to

789
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: I forty five, So there was no there was no

790
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: sort of inter information going on, pulling the information going

791
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: on as would occur later, and no real county to

792
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: county communication going on at the time either. And just

793
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 1: a quick note when we say the killing fields, it's

794
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: well known in Texas. It's a kind of a cord

795
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: of the I forty five corridor. I think around Houston,

796
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: the Houston area and which since the seventies have been

797
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: more than thirty bodies female bodies have been found. It's controversial,

798
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: is this the responsibility of one person or however many

799
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: you know, there's just so many theories up in the air.

800
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: But it's very famous that phrase, the killing fields of

801
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: I forty five and the.

802
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: Big difference between that particular series of murders where bodies

803
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: were simply left in the fields, left in the ditches,

804
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 2: just completely dumped, abandoned, with no preparation. Nothing was that

805
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: Shelley was discovered prepackaged. Yeah, the kind of body.

806
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: Disposal using materials commonly found at a construction company. Nothing

807
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,479
Speaker 1: unique though, right, there was nothing that they could pull

808
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: directly from Watkins Construction Company.

809
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: Okay, no, Unfortunately, because these materials were commonplace, Watkins Construction

810
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: Company was right to cross I forty five from the

811
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: Watkins house. Hmm hm, that's where it's located to this day.

812
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 1: Tell me the evidence, you know, we have the circumstantial evidence,

813
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: which is they had a bad marriage that you know,

814
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: they argued, he admitted, you know, he gave inconsistent stories

815
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: that the White BMW underwent a huge overhaul this material

816
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: that could have been found at their place. Nobody else

817
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: probably had acrimony with Shelley, and I'm sure there were

818
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: people who would be willing to talk about that. The friend,

819
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: the cop paylists, who went through the wrong channels to

820
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: report her missing and delayed reporting her. Missy and Jerry

821
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 1: didn't report her missing for days and days and days.

822
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 1: But there's no physical evidence, right, there's no blood, there's

823
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 1: Is there anything that could tie directly to him, Yes,

824
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: but it's murky.

825
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 2: So the fact of that delay is unconscoonable because that delay,

826
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: of course cloud any sort of quick investigation trying to

827
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 2: trace her, trace anybody who might have done this to her.

828
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 2: The delay you really could look at as deliberate, as

829
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 2: a deliberate sabotage of any traceable materials.

830
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: The fact that all the house lights.

831
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: Were on all night, and when I say the house lights,

832
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: we're not just talking about the house, We're talking about

833
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: the floodlights outside, the lights around the pool, etc. It

834
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: has been suggested to me by a law enforcement officer

835
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: who had close connection to this case that they were

836
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 2: making sure they hadn't missed anything, but they did apparently

837
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: miss something. It took two months for the Henderson County

838
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: investigator and the Texas Ranger who were the chief investigators

839
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: for this case, to gather enough circumstantial evidence to be

840
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: able to get a search warrant and go search the

841
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:57,919
Speaker 2: Watkins home.

842
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: How long did it take to two months? Why? Because Henderson,

843
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: the why is such a big question, but that is

844
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: that is what it took. And that was after That

845
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: was after extensive questioning of witnesses, neighbors, all kinds of people.

846
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: That was after gathering, you know, having another Texas ranger

847
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: go speak to the car dealership in College Station and

848
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: questioned the service manager there. That was after a lot

849
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: of footwork that these two guys did, and they finally

850
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 1: had gathered enough circumstantial evidence to justify a search of

851
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: the Watkins house because Jerry had absolutely refused any search

852
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: of the house up until then. Now, during that interim,

853
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: Jerry had not been living at the house. He had

854
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: left his two daughters with his sister in Corsicana and

855
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: he had been staying with his parents. Apparently, people will

856
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: go and check on the house, including his brother Ronnie,

857
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: but nobody was actually living there. However, during that period

858
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: between Shelley's recovery retrieval and the search warrant getting executed,

859
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: The garage floor got repainted and the circular driveway got

860
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: re cemented. That must have infuriated the Texas Rangers because

861
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: they're independent, I mean, they're brought in usually when the

862
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 1: local agency can't handle it and they need a bigger

863
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 1: you know, they need a bigger presence, they need more

864
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:34,839
Speaker 1: resources and stuff, and so that must have just really

865
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: pissed them off.

866
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: Well, it did piss them off a whole lot. But

867
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 2: they did bring in luminol. Okay, they searched the house.

868
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 2: They could not find anything, of course, because you know,

869
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: after two months, what were the chances. But luminol detected

870
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: blood spots beneath the newly painted surface of the garage.

871
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 2: It also detected a blood smear by the front door,

872
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 2: the door knob. Now, what I was told was that,

873
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 2: and I've interviewed a luminol expert, done a lot of

874
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: research on this, but what I was told was that

875
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: because the blood had obviously been cleaned before the garage

876
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 2: floor surface was repainted and the luminol was detected under

877
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 2: the paint, the luminol wound up diluting the blood stains

878
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: enough so that now I don't know if Bluestar does

879
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 2: that now or not, that the degree of dilution and deterioration,

880
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 2: you know, would cause a problem, But it was enough

881
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 2: so that they could not determine exactly how old those

882
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 2: blood spots were.

883
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 1: And they can't test it for DNA, can they? Well

884
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: back then, no, no, oh, yeah, you're right ninety three?

885
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: Well okay, And he could have just said, I cut myself.

886
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: What do you want me to do? I mean, you know,

887
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 1: I work with tools, that's my job. The bottom line

888
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: was that at that was not going to be very

889
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: serviceable for a trial. However, the witness who by then

890
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: had come forward and said that he had seen a

891
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: white expensive car on the bridge at four thirty that morning,

892
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: the same bridge that spans the Trinity River, and that

893
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 1: there was a guy outside the car, and he described

894
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: the guy, and he looked at a photo lineup and

895
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: picked out Jerry Mack, who was a very distinctive looking person.

896
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: I have to say, he's quite tall, so he was identified.

897
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: It sounds like as positively as you can. But four

898
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: in the morning, four thirty, he's on his way to work.

899
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's driving by and he passes his car, and

900
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 2: he sees the car in the distance. He gets up

901
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 2: upon it on the bridge, he sees the guy. He's

902
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 2: doing something. He can't tell what the guy's doing. And

903
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 2: then he keeps going to work because he works on

904
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 2: the Henderson County side of the river.

905
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: And he identifies Jerry. Suddenly there's an eyewitness. But a

906
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: defense attorney could say it was dark, he didn't know

907
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: what he was looking for. He didn't know Jerry, like

908
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: he couldn't say, I know that guy. He went to

909
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 1: my wedding kind of thing. So a defense attorney could say,

910
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: how good dry sight? Were you wearing glasses? Were you distracted?

911
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: But I know what you're saying. But that seems like

912
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: a good piece of evidence, But I'm thinking of the

913
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: way a defense attorney would handle.

914
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,919
Speaker 2: It, which is exactly why they were having to really

915
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 2: be careful about that witness, because the defense attorney who

916
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 2: had been hired was famous for making a practice of

917
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: ripping eyewitnesses apart on the stand. The defense attorney was

918
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 2: this guy named Jack Zimmerman from Houston, very famous lawyer.

919
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: He had defended some really high profile clients, and suddenly

920
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 2: he was the mouthpiece for Jerry mcwawkins. So the prosecution

921
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 2: was very aware that this could be a problem. Nonetheless,

922
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 2: when the case finally went for the last time before

923
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 2: the grand jury in December of nineteen ninety three, they

924
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 2: indicted Jerry macwatkins on the murder charge of his wife

925
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 2: on the basis of all that circumstantial evidence and a

926
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 2: lot of different witnesses and witness testimony in the grand jury,

927
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 2: there's a.

928
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: Bombshell and there was no trial.

929
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 2: What happened was that the fairly new newly elected district attorney,

930
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 2: whose name was Eray Andrews, was really pushing for the

931
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 2: indictment and really pushing for the case. Meanwhile, he himself

932
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 2: was a real problem guy. He had a lot of

933
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 2: bad habits and as it turns out, he was very corrupt.

934
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 2: So the following July, the case was slated for August

935
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 2: fifteenth of nineteen ninety four. That was the date Jerry

936
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,959
Speaker 2: mack was going to trial. In the previous month, the

937
00:58:55,080 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 2: DA got involved in a potential bribery scheme to make

938
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: the case go away. And because the bribery scheme and

939
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 2: the two adulthood guys who were supposedly his accomplices and

940
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 2: supposedly had lured him into this as a means of

941
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 2: making a whole bunch of money to pay off his debts,

942
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: of which he had many. They wound up contacting Jerry Mac.

943
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 2: Jerry Mac wound up taking this to the FBI. The

944
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 2: FBI got involved the bribery scheme wound up causing these

945
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 2: two guys to get arrested. But the DA had already

946
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 2: told them that he could no longer be involved in

947
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 2: the bribery scheme because the Texas State Attorney General was

948
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: requiring him to step down from his office and resign

949
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 2: on August fifteenth, the same day the trial was supposed

950
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: to start for other malfeasance. Is that he had already

951
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 2: been caught.

952
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, is there no good politician in Texas

953
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 1: in this time period? Good question.

954
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 2: So consequently, the DA had to step down, and that

955
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: gave Jack Zimmerman the opportunity to claim that the case

956
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 2: was tainted and that the indictment should be quashed. And

957
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: that was one of his claims, on the grounds that

958
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 2: the DA had been pursuing the case in the first

959
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: place in order to make money.

960
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. So then is it my guest that whoever takes

961
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: over being the DA declines to file charges again or

962
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: gets another indictment.

963
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 2: It has not yet gone to another indictment. We are

964
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 2: hoping that that's going to happen. Well, I saw Carmack

965
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 2: died six years ago. Carmack did, But Jerry Mack's very

966
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 2: much alive. What about Norma Jean? Is she still around?

967
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 2: She's gone? Okay?

968
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: And then Ronnie, that's a big question. Ronnie's out of

969
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: the picture.

970
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 2: Ronnie's I mean, this is Jerry Mack Okay and his

971
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 2: fourth wife Kay.

972
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: Do they have the kids or no? Yes.

973
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 2: Kay had always wanted children, she couldn't have them. She

974
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 2: had always been so sad, so sad that she couldn't

975
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: have children. She had made it clear that she would

976
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 2: love to raise Ashley and Lane should anything ever happen

977
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 2: to Shelley.

978
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: Wow, did you guys get any shit for this podcast

979
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: or for your book or anything? I mean, this must

980
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: have been really polarizing for Corsicana. It's very polarizing.

981
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 2: There are a few people who are very much pro

982
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: Jerry and pro Jerry and Kay, and then there are

983
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: people who absolutely have believed this. So there are people

984
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 2: who very much would like to see consequences finally occur,

985
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 2: But the nature of Corsicana has kept everybody very close mouthed.

986
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 2: They're afraid of retaliation, or that they've got businesses that

987
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 2: the Watkins who have an enormous amount of money, enormous

988
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 2: amount of money, the businesses that they patronize. You know,

989
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 2: nobody wants to risk any of that. Yeah, and the

990
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 2: town's been gaslighted for a very long time.

991
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: If you were a betting woman, what would you say,

992
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: the chances are that this is going to end up

993
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: at trials someday.

994
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 2: I am at the moment betting yes, And I'll tell

995
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 2: you why they have DNA.

996
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: Oh good on what.

997
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 2: Back in twenty nineteen, Body Hillhouse, the current sheriff of

998
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 2: Henderson County, attended a sheriff's conference here in Austin and said,

999
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 2: I've got two cold cases that have been bugging me

1000
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: and have haunted my predecessor, who was the sheriff ranger

1001
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 2: on the case and then became the sheriff and I

1002
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 2: was his deputy, And can you suggest ways in which

1003
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: we can keep pursuing these cases? The other sheriffs he

1004
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: consulted said, if you still have all the evidence, you

1005
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 2: need to send it off to this lab in California. Well,

1006
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 2: the lab has been finally able to retrieve touch DNA

1007
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 2: from the evidence.

1008
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: They have a profile.

1009
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 2: They took Jerry max DNA researched him. His profile does

1010
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 2: not match the DNA profile found in the evidence. We

1011
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 2: think very strongly. I think most people think that it

1012
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 2: matches the DNA of somebody, a particular person who they

1013
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 2: had not yet gotten DNA from. I've had a recent

1014
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 2: conversation with the current investigator on the case, and it said,

1015
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 2: you need to go get this person's DNA. Other things

1016
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 2: have now arisen enough interesting conversations have occurred between this

1017
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 2: person and other people in bars. This person's life is

1018
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 2: an example of having spent the thirty years deeper and

1019
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 2: deeper into alcohol and not able to get beyond the

1020
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 2: you need to retrieve his DNA.

1021
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: Is this somebody we've talked about? This is somebody who

1022
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: is very close to Jerry himself. Okay, well, this has

1023
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: been a hell of a journey, Carol, good Lord. I

1024
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: mean for a painter, turn novelist, turn nonfiction, you know,

1025
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: turn podcast or you've been so busy and this sounds

1026
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: like you and Wes have done just a tremendous amount

1027
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 1: of research and reporting on this story.

1028
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:30,439
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Yeah, we have. We've done a huge

1029
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 2: amount of digging. We are still getting information coming in daily.

1030
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 2: We have completed episode ten of our ten episode podcast,

1031
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 2: and yet literally all day long, every day, people are

1032
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 2: continuing to come forward, and we ask and beg them

1033
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 2: to please do so, because every little bit helps. We

1034
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,439
Speaker 2: have gotten all kinds of new leads. There are more

1035
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 2: people who know things, and we are receiving indications of that,

1036
01:04:58,600 --> 01:04:59,919
Speaker 2: and that's all I can say for now.

1037
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1038
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1039
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget There are

1040
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1041
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1042
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1043
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

1044
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1045
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

1046
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark. Karen Kilgarriff and

1047
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked,

1048
01:05:53,880 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.