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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're practicing

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Speaker 1: our moves before the big audition tomorrow. Valkyries are hiring

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Speaker 1: a mascot, and our patented combination of the Elaine into

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Speaker 1: the Splits is a show stopper. It's Thursday, May twenty second,

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Speaker 1: and on today's show, we'll be chatting with Eben Noby Williams,

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Speaker 1: Sportco's deputy editor and co host of the Sportacast podcast.

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Speaker 1: We talk about the Connecticut Suns potential sale and relocation,

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Speaker 1: the relationship between sports team valuations and revenue, and how

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Speaker 1: the complicated WNBA ownership structure affects investment and expansion. Plus,

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Speaker 1: Game two of the PWHL Finals is on deck, and

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Speaker 1: our show Soccer Side plays its first home match. It's

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Speaker 1: all coming up right after this welcome back slices. Here's

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Speaker 1: what you need to know today. Let's start with the

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Speaker 1: PWHL Finals, where Emily Clark scored two minutes and forty

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Speaker 1: seven seconds into overtime to lead the Ottawa Charge to

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Speaker 1: a two to one win over the defending champion Minnesota

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Speaker 1: Frost on Tuesday night in Game one. Minnesota has yet

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Speaker 1: to win a season opener across four series in their

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Speaker 1: two seasons of playoff action. Meantime, Ottawa is a perfect

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Speaker 1: three to zero on home ice in this year's playoffs.

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Speaker 1: They host again tonight Game two, a seven pm Eastern

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Speaker 1: puck drop at TD Place. More Hockey Team USA legend

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Speaker 1: Hillary Knight says the twenty twenty six Milan Courtina Olympics

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Speaker 1: will be her final games. Knight, who turns thirty six

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Speaker 1: in July, is currently tied for the most Olympic medals

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Speaker 1: of any American hockey player. A fifth medal in Milan

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Speaker 1: would make her the sole record holder, a ten time

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Speaker 1: world champ and the career leader in points, goals, and

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Speaker 1: assists at the World Championships. Knight has been one of

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Speaker 1: the most influential women in hockey for over a decade.

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Speaker 1: She talked a friend of the show, Nancy Armor at

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Speaker 1: USA Today Sports about the decision to make Milan her

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Speaker 1: last games, saying, quote, it's time. I have grown up

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Speaker 1: in this program and it's just given me so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm at peace. I just have this feeling that it's time,

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Speaker 1: and I'm grateful that hopefully I can stay healthy and everything,

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Speaker 1: I can go out when i'd like to be done

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Speaker 1: that is such a privilege that only a handful of

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Speaker 1: competitors get end quote. Night isn't retiring just yet, though

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Speaker 1: she does plan to play in the PWHL after Milan

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Speaker 1: to Soccer. The US women's national team officially announced the

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Speaker 1: twenty four player training camp roster for its upcoming friendlies

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Speaker 1: against China and Jamaica. Defender Naomi Germa is back in

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Speaker 1: the fold after missing every contest this calendar year due

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Speaker 1: to injuries. She returns after winning the Women's Super League

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Speaker 1: title and FA Cup with Chelsea FC, the side that

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Speaker 1: made her the first ever player in women's soccer with

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Speaker 1: a million dollar transfer fee. Seattle Rain forward lynd Biandolo

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Speaker 1: also makes an appearance after missing. The squad's April games.

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Speaker 1: Also had coach Emma Hayeses granted a few players their

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Speaker 1: first ever senior national team call ups, including Orlando Pride

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Speaker 1: defender Carriabello and Kansas City current midfielder she of the

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Speaker 1: iconic twerk celebration Low Labanta. If thirty two year old

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Speaker 1: Leabonta plays in either of the matches, she'll become the

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Speaker 1: oldest player to debut for the US women's national team

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Speaker 1: program ever. In its forty year history. I heard friends

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Speaker 1: of the show sam Us and Becky Sowerbrun on the

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Speaker 1: women's game advocating for a Grandma seally if Lebonta scores,

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Speaker 1: so here for it, fake Caine limping walk the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: Let's see it. We'll link to the full training camp

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Speaker 1: roster in our show notes. The US women's national team

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Speaker 1: will face China on May thirty first at Alion's Field

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Speaker 1: in Saint Paul, Minnesota, and then Jamaica June third at

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Speaker 1: Energizer Park in Saint Louis. That second match, we'll also

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Speaker 1: see a pregame retirement celebration, including bobbleheads for Soerbrun, Saint

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Speaker 1: Louis Native and US Women's national team legend. More soccer slices.

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Speaker 1: We want to let you know that our show side,

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Speaker 1: Minnesota Aurora FC, plays its home opener tonight, facing off

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Speaker 1: against Rochester FC. Kickoff is at eight pm Eastern, and

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Speaker 1: we are so excited to cheer them on as they

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Speaker 1: try to dominate the USLW league. Thanks again to everybody

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Speaker 1: who bought a slice of this community owned team, and

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Speaker 1: we hope you're taking as much pride in them as

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Speaker 1: we do. Also, some more details to come on my

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Speaker 1: visit to Aurora FC, but it's almost certainly going to

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Speaker 1: be the June twelfth game against the Chicago City Dutch Lions.

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Speaker 1: There also might be some cool Aurora good game merch

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Speaker 1: to look forward to, so we'll keep you updated on

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Speaker 1: that as well. Moving on to a different pitch, we're

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Speaker 1: approaching the tenth weekend of women's Elite rugby action. The

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Speaker 1: Denver Onyx are leading the league with a perfect six

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Speaker 1: and zero record, followed closely by the Boston Banshee's at

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Speaker 1: five and two and the New York Exiles at four

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Speaker 1: and three. My Chicago Tempest are, how shall we say,

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Speaker 1: suffering from a bit of a drought, oh and seven,

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Speaker 1: y'all zero wins. To quote Billy Shakespeare's The Tempest, Hell

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Speaker 1: is empty and all the devils are here. We'll keep

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Speaker 1: an eye on the standings as the league championship, the

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Speaker 1: Legacy Cup is just a little over a month away,

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Speaker 1: and we'll link to the full league schedule and to

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Speaker 1: where you can purchase tickets in our show notes to hoops.

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Speaker 1: The wa NBA's opening weekend was a smashing success, and

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Speaker 1: one game in particular had incredible viewership. The Indiana Fever's

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Speaker 1: home opener against the Chicago Sky on Saturday averaged two

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Speaker 1: point seven million viewers, making it the most watched WNBA

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Speaker 1: regular season game since two thousand. Per Sports Media Watch,

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Speaker 1: the game peaked at three point one million viewers, good

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Speaker 1: for the second biggest average audience for any league event,

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Speaker 1: behind only last year's WNBA All Star Game. No official

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Speaker 1: numbers on how many dumbass talking heads who don't say

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Speaker 1: shit about the w until there's some sort of Fracice

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Speaker 1: just had to chime in on Angel versus Caitlin all week,

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Speaker 1: but it feels like three point one million. The Fever

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Speaker 1: looked like world beaters in that game against the Sky,

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Speaker 1: but they came down to Earth pretty quickly. On Tuesday night,

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta Dream got the best of them in Indy,

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Speaker 1: winning a nail bier ninety one to ninety. Britney Grinder

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Speaker 1: led Atlanta with twenty one points and eight rebounds before

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Speaker 1: she fouled out. Ryan Howard put up twenty points and

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Speaker 1: three assists, and Brianna Jones posted a dominant nineteen point

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Speaker 1: thirteen rebound double double. Indiana had some bright spots two

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Speaker 1: in the loss in the form of some more broken

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Speaker 1: records for Kaitlin Clark and Dewana Bonner. Clark notched her

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Speaker 1: tenth career game with more than twenty points in tennisis,

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Speaker 1: tying Courtney Vandersloot for the most such games in WNBA history.

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Speaker 1: And get this, Clark did it in forty two games.

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Speaker 1: Slute achieved the milestone in three hundred and ninety four.

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn also recorded her sixth career twenty five plus point

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Speaker 1: tennisist game, passing Sabrina and Nascue for the most in

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Speaker 1: WNBA history, and she became the first player in WNBA

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Speaker 1: history to open a season with back to back twenty

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Speaker 1: plus point ten plus assist games. Last, but not least,

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Speaker 1: Clark is now the first player in WNBA history with

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Speaker 1: multiple games of twenty five plus points, ten plus assists,

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Speaker 1: five plus rebounds, and five plus three pointers made. Who

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Speaker 1: She is off to a hot start. Meanwhile, de Wana

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Speaker 1: Bonner moved up a spot on the league's career rebounds list,

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Speaker 1: leaprogging Tina Thompson to secure sole possession of eighth most

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Speaker 1: boards all time. She's now got three thousand and seventy

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Speaker 1: one eighth and rebounds third in points. Bonner is leaving

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Speaker 1: her mark more basketball news On Monday, Minnesota Linkstar and

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Speaker 1: if He Sikalier appeared on ESPN's NBA Today alongside Boniever

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Speaker 1: frontman Justin Vernon, who announced that he's collabing with the

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Speaker 1: Links franchise on a first of its kind partnership focused

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Speaker 1: on gender equity and community impact. The team offered more

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Speaker 1: details in a release, noting that the multi year collaboration

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Speaker 1: starting this season, will quote focus on addressing gender inequities

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Speaker 1: as a result of domestic and sexual violence, sex trafficking,

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Speaker 1: health care disparities, and barriers within education and leadership end quote. Vernon,

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Speaker 1: a longtime Links fan with family ties to both Minnesota

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Speaker 1: and Wisconsin, has been a big advocate for gender equity.

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Speaker 1: He assisted in creating Boniver's two a Billion campaign, which

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Speaker 1: raises support and awareness and creates interpersonal connections in an

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Speaker 1: effort to end gender inequity, domestic violence, and sexual abuse. Now,

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Speaker 1: Boniyver's two AB and the Links will collaborate on a

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Speaker 1: variety of things, including shining a spotlight on local nonprofits

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Speaker 1: and activations throughout the season. The two AB campaign will

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Speaker 1: also donate two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in total

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Speaker 1: grant money to ten Minnesotan and Western Wisconsin nonprofits and shelters.

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Speaker 1: This partnership packs even more of a punch than what

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Speaker 1: we've said, so we'll link to the Lynx's full release

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Speaker 1: explaining all the details in our show notes. Also a

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Speaker 1: link to Fee and Vernon's five minute segment on NBA Today.

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Speaker 1: In that links release, Vernon summed up why he's so

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Speaker 1: excited to get involved. He said, quote, basketball is exactly

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Speaker 1: like music. It's a group and individual improvising to create

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Speaker 1: moments of vision, excitement, and joy. Simply said, the Minnesota

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Speaker 1: Lynks team is my favorite band in the world right now.

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Speaker 1: As Boney Verra, we also saw an unprecedented opportunity to

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Speaker 1: not only support this band of incredible women on the court,

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Speaker 1: but by combining forces to more urgently support the communities

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Speaker 1: of women in the Upper Midwest end quote. As if

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Speaker 1: I didn't already love him enough, What a mention. Finally,

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Speaker 1: in hoops, Seattle Storm players Dominique Maloga and Gabby Williams

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Speaker 1: have announced that they'll skip this summer's EuroBasket competition, which

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Speaker 1: is slated to begin June eighteenth. Both players were part

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Speaker 1: of the French national team that earned a silver medal

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Speaker 1: at the Paris Olympics, but they'll stick around in the

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Speaker 1: States to help build with Seattle. Williams hasn't play. I

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Speaker 1: had a full WNBA season since twenty twenty two, and

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Speaker 1: staying in the US offers her a chance to do so.

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Speaker 1: Malonga spoke about her own choice on Monday, saying, quote,

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Speaker 1: it was a difficult decision because the French jersey is

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Speaker 1: very important for me. I decided to stay here because

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Speaker 1: I think my rookie season is really important and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to leave it all with the team end quote.

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Speaker 1: This is great news for Seattle, who started the year

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Speaker 1: a little shorthanded because of the league's hard salary cap

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Speaker 1: and because of unfortunate knee injuries to Nica Mule, Jordan

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Speaker 1: Horsten and Katie lu Samuelson, who suffered hers just weeks

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Speaker 1: before the regular season tipped off. The French team will

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Speaker 1: also be without Marin Johannes, who shared that she'll skip

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Speaker 1: euro Basket as well to focus on her time with

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Speaker 1: the New York Liberty. We got to take a quick

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Speaker 1: break slices when we come back. Evan Novie Williams explains

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Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff to me like I'm five, stick

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Speaker 1: around joining us now. He's sport of Ghost, deputy editor

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Speaker 1: and co host of sport a Cast podcast. Prior to

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Speaker 1: joining Sportico, he was at Bloomberg News for almost a decade,

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Speaker 1: covering everything from media deals and team sales to e

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Speaker 1: sports and the Olympics. He played sprint football for the

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Speaker 1: Princeton Tigers, and when we wrote this bio was the

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Speaker 1: first time Alex ever heard that there is a sport

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Speaker 1: called sprint football. It's Evan Noby Williams.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Evan, Hey, Sarah, how are you good.

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Speaker 1: I'm quite familiar with sprint football because was the sprint

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Speaker 1: football team at Cornell, But for those who don't understand,

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Speaker 1: give us a brief synopsis.

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Speaker 2: Sprint football is varsity football. Had a few institutions in

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Speaker 2: the Northeast, Cornell being one of them with a weight limit,

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Speaker 2: so everybody on the field when I played was weighing

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Speaker 2: in at one hundred and seventy two pounds. It feels

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Speaker 2: like the vestiges of a very privileged people who could

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Speaker 2: not play full weight football but got to college and

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Speaker 2: were likey, I want to keep doing this. How do

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Speaker 2: we structure something so that my one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 2: five pound body can still be competitive. And they built it.

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Speaker 2: And I will say I played on I played on

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Speaker 2: a Princeton team that was went twenty years without winning

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Speaker 2: a game and was losing games by very, very large sums.

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Speaker 2: Cornell Army and Navy are in the Sprint League, and

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Speaker 2: you can imagine they've got one hundred guys that are

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Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy two pounds exactly and are quite athletic,

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Speaker 2: and we were losing games like seventy to nothing or

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Speaker 2: like eight to five and things like that. So it

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Speaker 2: was amazing. The guys were great. It was very fun

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Speaker 2: for me, and it was a good learning life lesson

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Speaker 2: that sometimes you know you're gonna lose before you take

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Speaker 2: the field.

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Speaker 1: You know. We were pretty nice about it. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember there being and maybe there was between the football

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Speaker 1: guys and the sprint football guys. Maybe there was like

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Speaker 1: beef about, like you're not real football, but we never

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Speaker 1: we never like heard that. We definitely knew who was

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Speaker 1: on the football team and who was on sprint football,

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Speaker 1: but we accepted everyone. We loved everyone. I also love

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Speaker 1: how men always come up with the best names like

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Speaker 1: euphemisms for their sizes, Like you know, if you're in

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Speaker 1: a heavy set man, your suit is called executive. Did

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Speaker 1: you know that that that's the name of the size, Like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you must be very important because you're larger. And then

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Speaker 1: like sprint football, like you're not sprinting the whole time, Like,

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Speaker 1: but you didn't want to call it like small ball

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Speaker 1: or like tiny man football, so they had to go

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Speaker 1: with something that sounded impressive.

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Speaker 2: The I do. I do triathlon sometimes, and there's a

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Speaker 2: triathlon category for larger people. And I think it is

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Speaker 2: like Clyde Gale and Athena. I think to your point

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Speaker 2: of money, like choose. I love that choose terms that

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Speaker 2: we call the main Princeton team the heavies. The heav

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Speaker 2: differentiate them from the sprint folks.

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Speaker 1: Well, you were not here to talk football, though it

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Speaker 1: seems we could. We're going to talk a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of stuff, and I want to start with the news

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Speaker 1: you recently broke about the Connecticut Sun. What is the latest,

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Speaker 1: if anything after the report you released about the team

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Speaker 1: being engaged in talks about potentially selling Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a fascinating one because it comes

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the WNBA's expansion talks also, and

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Speaker 2: there's very few people that I have talked to that

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Speaker 2: think that that team is going to stay in Connecticut

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Speaker 2: if it is sold. It's certainly possible, but you can

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Speaker 2: see a world where someone who pays hundreds of millions

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Speaker 2: of dollars to buy this asset decides that, hey, maybe Uncasville,

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Speaker 2: Connecticut is not the market that I want this team

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Speaker 2: to play in, and maybe playing in a venue owned

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Speaker 2: by the former owner is not the situation that I

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Speaker 2: really want. So if this team is indeed sold, then

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Speaker 2: the person who buys it is looking to potentially move it.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean for the already ongoing expansion talks?

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Speaker 2: And there were dozens of I'm sure you know this Thereah,

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Speaker 2: there was more than a dozen different groups and different

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Speaker 2: cities that really wanted and put together bids and offers

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Speaker 2: for WNBA expansion. My understanding is that a lot of

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Speaker 2: those groups that learned they were not getting expansion are

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Speaker 2: now in talks with the Sun as well. So I

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Speaker 2: think it all kind of comes together at a critical

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Speaker 2: time for the WNBA where they're deciding how many new

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Speaker 2: teams they want to add. How many is too many

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Speaker 2: because there's only so much talent, right, and you can

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Speaker 2: expand to quickly. It's certainly a possibility. And then they've

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Speaker 2: done it before exactly. So in the middle of all that,

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Speaker 2: also this team that's on the market that could move

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Speaker 2: to any one of these other cities as well, So

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Speaker 2: a lot going on behind the scenes from a team

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Speaker 2: sales and expansion standpoint.

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Speaker 1: For the W couple things there. I assume that the

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Speaker 1: league still has to approve a sale. So these expansion

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Speaker 1: groups that are looking to buy both have to convince

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Speaker 1: the Connecticut Sun ownership group that they have the best

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Speaker 1: offer and have the Mohegan suntribe want to take their offer.

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Speaker 1: But then the W also has to approve. Will they

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Speaker 1: have to approve where the buyers take the team.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that's all part of the conversation. The other

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Speaker 2: interesting aspect here is price, and from what I understand,

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Speaker 2: the conversation around expansion got up to, at least in

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Speaker 2: Cleveland's case with Dan Gilbert, two hundred and fifty million

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Speaker 2: dollars cash for expansion. It seems inconceivable to me that

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Speaker 2: the Sun would sell for two hundred and fifty million dollars.

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Speaker 2: So in some ways you now also have an expansion

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Speaker 2: opportunity on the market that costs less than the actual

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Speaker 2: ex expansion that the league is selling, which again creates

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Speaker 2: a kind of interesting dynamic there.

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Speaker 1: But we'll probably benefit the Sun and it will go

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Speaker 1: for more than it's worth because it will be the

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Speaker 1: only way for someone who wasn't awarded a team to

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Speaker 1: get the team that they want in the place that they.

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Speaker 2: Want totally, and just to go one step further. Perhaps

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Speaker 2: even let's say that w decided on three expansion teams,

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Speaker 2: maybe the league tries to push and I should say

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Speaker 2: Allen and Company, the bank is doing both these transactions,

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Speaker 2: Maybe they push one of the ones they wanted for

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Speaker 2: expansion just towards the Sun. Right. There's a whole bunch

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Speaker 2: I think possible iterations. But this process has been going

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Speaker 2: on for a very long time in the W As

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Speaker 2: you know, there are new teams that have been announced,

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Speaker 2: new teams that have joined, new teams that are going

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Speaker 2: to join. I think a lot of people in the

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Speaker 2: league are looking forward to this being in the rearview mirror,

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Speaker 2: having set the expansion conversation and then trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out the fun stuff about how these teams join. What

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Speaker 2: the player situation looks like. There's a labor deal looming

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Speaker 2: in the background as well, which is obviously a big

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Speaker 2: piece of the business puzzle for the double. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot going on and a mid rapid change. This

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Speaker 2: league is going to look very different in a few years.

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Speaker 1: How does the fact that there's expected to be a

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Speaker 1: new CBA and eighty percent of the league's contracts and

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five affect the conversations around expansion or

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Speaker 1: even buying, because what exactly are you buying? What players,

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Speaker 1: who plays for whom right? All of those things are

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Speaker 1: kind of going to be tossed in the air at

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Speaker 1: the same time.

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Speaker 2: I think this is such a good question, and it's

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Speaker 2: something that I am also kind of confused about. The

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Speaker 2: traditional way that most leagues have looked at expansion is

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Speaker 2: you do your media deals, you get your labor piece,

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Speaker 2: and then you hit the market with expansion. When you

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Speaker 2: know that there's a certain amount of you know the

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Speaker 2: rules of the game for player contracts and the relationship

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Speaker 2: with the union, you know what the basically contracted revenue

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Speaker 2: is coming in from media, that's the time to strike.

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Speaker 2: And if you listen to Adam Silver, over the past

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Speaker 2: few years, every time he was asked about NBA expansion,

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Speaker 2: he was like, we're going to get our media deals done,

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Speaker 2: We're going to get our labor piece locked in, and

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Speaker 2: then sometime around literally right now, we're going to start

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Speaker 2: talking about expansion. Formally, you would think that that is

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Speaker 2: when your teams are most valuable, when there's that kind

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Speaker 2: of comfort in the marketplace about long term revenue. But

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Speaker 2: the W has done something differently right that W has

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Speaker 2: had the expansion talks. The media deals are done, but

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Speaker 2: the W had expansion talks before before the labor deal

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Speaker 2: at least was signed and executed. And this is a

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Speaker 2: potentially thornier labor deal than most other men's leagues at

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Speaker 2: least have seen in the past few years. I can't

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Speaker 2: tell if that says something about the way both the

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Speaker 2: NBA and the WNBA think this labor deal is going

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Speaker 2: to pan out, that they think that maybe selling a

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Speaker 2: team teams now and expansion now is better. But I

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Speaker 2: do think it's definitely interesting that the kind of traditional

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Speaker 2: way you think about maximizing your value as to do

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Speaker 2: labor first, and instead in the W we see teams

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Speaker 2: hitting the market and expansion conversations happening before that labor

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Speaker 2: deal gets signed.

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Speaker 1: A couple more quick things about this Sun team. We

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Speaker 1: did see them play a sellout game in Boston at

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Speaker 1: the Garden last summer. It was a huge success. It

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Speaker 1: had a lot of Sun fans nervous about the potential

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Speaker 1: of them taking the team elsewhere, and of course den

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Speaker 1: Risotti said no, no, we're very committed, and the Mohiget

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Speaker 1: suntribe is very committed. And then here we are today

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Speaker 1: talking about how they're taking calls about potentially leaving. Does

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Speaker 1: it seem like Boston would have any priority or that

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Speaker 1: there'd be any feeling about the existing fan base and

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Speaker 1: not taking the team so far away that current Connecticut

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Speaker 1: Sun fans couldn't root for whatever team it becomes in

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Speaker 1: the same general area.

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Speaker 2: I think it's certainly it's a great question, and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure it's something that will come up. My understanding is

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Speaker 2: that of the let's just call them twelve expansion groups

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Speaker 2: that were really interested in this process, Boston was not

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Speaker 2: a name I heard very often, and my understanding of

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Speaker 2: the three kind of leading horse finalists right now, Boston

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Speaker 2: was certainly not one of them. So not to say never,

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Speaker 2: and who knows, the W could announce it's three expansion

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Speaker 2: teams and then the Sun are not part of that.

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Speaker 2: The Sun gets sold to a group in Boston. There's

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Speaker 2: an NBA transaction obviously that is in the works potentially

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Speaker 2: and in Boston at the same time, which either makes

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Speaker 2: that more complicated or makes that potentially easier, depending on

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Speaker 2: who the group is. But it would not be the

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Speaker 2: first place that I would have thought, even given the

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Speaker 2: proximity and obviously the fact that, as you said, they've

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Speaker 2: played games there and have had good, good crowds. The

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Speaker 2: interesting thing about the W to me is that the

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Speaker 2: league is so small that there's so many good markets

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Speaker 2: that don't have teams. And when you think about like

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Speaker 2: baseball expansion, they're talking about like Portland, Oregon and maybe Nashville,

390
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Speaker 2: and not to say those are bad markets, but there's

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Speaker 2: just so many massive markets that don't have WNBA teams

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Speaker 2: right now, right Philadelphia. So yeah, in some ways the

393
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Speaker 2: competition is way fiercer because the options for the W

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Speaker 2: in terms of huge markets, big sports cities that they

395
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Speaker 2: can go to. It's just way wider than we see

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Speaker 2: in these thirty or thirty two team men's leagues.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that there are three front runners.

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Speaker 2: Give them to us, Yeah, I mean the three that

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Speaker 2: I think are in the best place right now. Cleveland's

400
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Speaker 2: been written about. Philadelphia seems very likely as well, particularly

401
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Speaker 2: given that Adam Silver basically broke he to an agreement

402
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Speaker 2: between the hockey and basketball teams there for their for

403
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 2: their stadiums, and when they announced that agreement, they made

404
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Speaker 2: it very clear that W was their priority. Wanda Sykes

405
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: and her wife were on the stage when they announced it.

406
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Speaker 2: She has been a very very vocal proponent of bringing

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Speaker 2: w to Philadelphia, and then Detroit, I think is an

408
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,160
Speaker 2: interesting one as well, backed by both Tom Gores, who

409
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Speaker 2: owns the Pistons, and then a whole host of local

410
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Speaker 2: business women, businessmen, celebrities, athletes in the Detroit area. Detroit

411
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Speaker 2: had a WNBA team at one point. Obviously, Adam Silver

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Speaker 2: has set on the record before that he could totally

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Speaker 2: see that team getting revived at some point. So if

414
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Speaker 2: I was a betting person, those would be those would

415
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Speaker 2: be the three that I would I would expect. But

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Speaker 2: what everyone keeps telling me is that nothing is final, final, final,

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Speaker 2: and everyone's kind of still waiting for the final decision.

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Speaker 2: So I guess take that with a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a grain of salt.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that Adam Silver is very clear in the

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Speaker 1: way he's doing business on the NBA side, what needs

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Speaker 1: to be in order before expansion, etc. That the W

423
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Speaker 1: does things a little differently. Now this might be in

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Speaker 1: part because the W has a very unique ownership structure.

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Speaker 1: And as we get into this next topic, I want

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Speaker 1: to get into it and do like an almost comically

427
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Speaker 1: accessible way. Some real explain it to me like I'm

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Speaker 1: five years old. Shit, because not just for me, I

429
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Speaker 1: think I am someone who definitely loves to skip the

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Speaker 1: math portion of assignments and isn't particularly interested in the

431
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Speaker 1: business side, which is why it's great that I got

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Speaker 1: into ownership and didn't know much about the place I

433
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: was investing in, which explains why a lot of things

434
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 1: went the way they did. But also just for listeners

435
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: who are maybe learning this stuff for the first time.

436
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: So when we talk about the WNBA and its ownership,

437
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: we've got the WNBA, the NBA, and an independent investor

438
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: group that are all three a part of this larger ownership.

439
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: So can you tell us, and you just recently wrote

440
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: a story about this, can you explain the three ownership

441
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: groups and how expansion and decision making affects them differently.

442
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you nailed it. Essentially. When the WNBA launched, it

443
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: was essentially fifty percent owned by the NBA, which put

444
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,959
Speaker 2: up a lot of the money in the working capital

445
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 2: to get the league off the ground, and then the

446
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 2: other fifty percent of that equity pool was divvied up

447
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: among the owners. Some of them are NBA owners, some

448
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 2: of them are independent owners. And then three years ago,

449
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: I think twenty twenty two, they did a capital raise

450
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: from a group of and it's a who's who of

451
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: important people in sports. A lot of them are also

452
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 2: NBA owners, some of them are investors in sports. Nike

453
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: is one of them, right, So there's companies in there

454
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 2: as well. They raised a bunch of money. They sold

455
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: sixteen percent of the equity in the league, diluting both

456
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: the NBA portion and the owner's portion equally. So right now,

457
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: from my understanding, the NBA owns forty two percent of

458
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: the league. This investment group owned sixteen percent of the league,

459
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 2: and then the WNBA owners as a collective, own the

460
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: other forty two percent of the league. And interestingly, and

461
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 2: this surprised me when I heard it. When the W expands,

462
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 2: they are only diluting that forty two percent piece that

463
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 2: are owned by the owners. The NBA will continue to

464
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: own forty two percent, these investors will continue to own

465
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 2: sixteen percent, which is obviously different when the NFL. If

466
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: the NFL were ever to expand, owners would go from

467
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 2: having a thirty second of the slice to a thirty

468
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 2: third of the slice. Right, that's how most of the

469
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,239
Speaker 2: leagues work. But because the equity structure in the W

470
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: is so different, and because of the way they raise money,

471
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 2: which was essentially to protect these people that gave the

472
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: money and and to protect them from dilution, yeah, you

473
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: end up with a world where the W going from

474
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: fourteen to sixteen or if it's ever a twenty, you're

475
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: not an owner owning one to twentieth of the league.

476
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 2: You're an owner owning way, way, way way less than that.

477
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,719
Speaker 2: So when money comes into the league, for it's not

478
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 2: split thirty two ways like it is in other leagues.

479
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: The revenue sharing obviously is different because you have the

480
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: NBA sitting there, you have these other owners sitting there,

481
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: So it's definitely a more complex structure. I would imagine

482
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: some people of the WNBA would maybe have done things

483
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 2: a little bit differently in retrospect. But this was a league,

484
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 2: as you know, that spent twenty years kind of trying

485
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: to get a foothold and trying to kind of break

486
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: into both the thing that fans wanted to talk about

487
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: and fans wanted to pay to see. And the glow

488
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: up has happened very quickly, right, and some people in

489
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: the league would say, yeah, we knew this was happening

490
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: all along. I think some people were surprised by how

491
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: fast it took.

492
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,239
Speaker 1: Well, it started out really strong, and then there was

493
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: some intention from some folks to vary it in ways

494
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: that really affected the numbers that it started out with.

495
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it was huge when it started.

496
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: The first two years. The numbers are bonkers. You're right,

497
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 2: the attendance and viewership numbers are. We kind of always

498
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: have to remind ourselves here that when you see a

499
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: huge number from an attendance or a TV ratings, which

500
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: we just saw for the the opening game of the

501
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: Fever versus the Sky, Yeah, it's probably not a record

502
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: because there's probably a record from two thousand or nineteen

503
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: ninety seven or what right or a I did exactly? Yeah,

504
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: that that that that broke it. So, yeah, the first

505
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: couple of years, and I would say that despite the

506
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: fact that numbers may have been higher back then, the

507
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: league isn't a way healthier right business place right now? Yeah,

508
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: it's not a new novelty, it's a It is a

509
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: real thing that people really want to see and want

510
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 2: to watch, and that companies are finally coming around to.

511
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned that investment group. I was not a

512
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: part of that. I got invited and now I'm thinking,

513
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: what a bit a good time to get involved, but

514
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,239
Speaker 1: a good investment I was. I was otherwise engaged with

515
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: the with the red Stars now color neutral Stars, and

516
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: you know you mentioned that group though coming in. One

517
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: of the things that's interesting about the Connecticut Sun ownership

518
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 1: is that there are teams that it feels like are

519
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: not capable of continuing on the pace that the league

520
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: is growing at. And that's one of them, right. The

521
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: size of the venue, the investment required, the practice facility

522
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 1: that we meet make fun of where kids are having

523
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: birthday parties while they're trying to practice for a playoff game, Like,

524
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: there's an inevitable growth that some people won't be able

525
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: to keep up with So that investment group was partly

526
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: to help shoulder the load and to carry things and

527
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: growth things while the original owners had invested years earlier

528
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: and were continuing to put a ton of money in.

529
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: Do you see that happening more across the league where

530
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: there will be old owners that either have to do

531
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: a capital race to bring in new folks to help,

532
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: or will choose to sell at this moment while the

533
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: league is blowing up.

534
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's a great question and a great point.

535
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: And this is the and the NWSL is going through

536
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: this in the same way, and it's just way more

537
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 2: further along because they have essentially turned over their entire

538
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: league from an ownership structure in the past five years.

539
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: But there's no question, as valuations sore, it's great for

540
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: all the older owners, but a lot of the older

541
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: owners bought into a league that was not this, didn't

542
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: have a forty million dollar practice facility requirement right, and

543
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 2: didn't whatever the new CB says, wasn't expecting suddenly salaries

544
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: to be at this point, And there's often a lot

545
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: of ten You see it in men's leagues too. MLS

546
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: has dealt with us for the last twenty years. There's

547
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 2: often a lot of tension between older owners who got

548
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: in at a very small price and have just have

549
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: gravy on their valuations glow up and no matter what,

550
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: they're making money and they don't feel they need to

551
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: spend a ton. And you have young owners who came

552
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: in recently paid the recent sticker price and they're like, look,

553
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: if I bought this team for an NWOSLF, I bought

554
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: this team for eighty million dollars or one hundred and

555
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 2: ten million dollars in San Diego, I want to make

556
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: that money back, right I. I Am not going from

557
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: one million to a hundred million. I'm going from one

558
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: hundred million to whatever it looks like next. So there's

559
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: definitely tension in ownership groups. And yeah, I think both

560
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 2: these leagues are are looking to turn over. The owners

561
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: that look at a forty million dollar practice facility and

562
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: don't say, heck, yeah, I want to do that right now,

563
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: say I'm not sure if that's in the budget or

564
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 2: that's yeah, I'm not sure if we want to do that.

565
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 2: So the WNWSL, very of the situation players have been

566
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 2: in the past, they're very aware that the fans care

567
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: about it, because that's not true in every league WNBA

568
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: and really care about the way players are treated. And

569
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: it's going to impact the w labor talks for sure,

570
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: just like it impacted the NWSL ones last year. But

571
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: all of that comes together to say, yeah, absolutely WNBA owners,

572
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: some of them would like nothing more than to have

573
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of deep pocketed owners who bought it

574
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: at high prices and really want to make that league

575
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: soar in all the ways, as opposed to having this

576
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: mix of people who came in at high prices, or

577
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: people who bought these teams for thirty years ago for

578
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: five hundred thousand dollars and they've lost a lot of

579
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,719
Speaker 2: money in the past twenty years and are just kind

580
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: of trying to get their money back out of that

581
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: and capture the appreciation as it happens. So there's a

582
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: really interesting dynamic there, which again exists in MLS less

583
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: so I think in other leagues, just because valuations have

584
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: been so high for a while. But certainly something that's

585
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: happening at the w level and certainly something that happened

586
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: at the NWSL level for the past five years.

587
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: You mentioned valuations. Let's talk about it pro sports team valuations.

588
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: Let's start with the basics of like what goes into

589
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: when you see that team is worth X million dollars?

590
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: What are they using to calculate that?

591
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's part of it is science, right, and

592
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: is like looking at a P and L sheet and

593
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: seeing how many season ticket holders do they have, how

594
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: long are those contracts, what does their local media deal

595
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: look like, what does the national media deal look like

596
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: for the league? And what shared does the team get.

597
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: Some of it is that, and then some of it

598
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: is kind of this more ephemeral idea of how many

599
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: people want to own these teams and when one hits

600
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: the market, how rare is it and how much kind

601
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: of how much ego is involved in it, and and

602
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: how many teams are their period because they're scarcity value

603
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: involved in all these leagues. So at Sportco we do

604
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: these valuations and we like to say it's like part art,

605
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: part science, and the science part in some ways is

606
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: the easier part because you do have a sense of

607
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: what these teams are making and what the economics look like.

608
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: Kind of the harder part is is that is that

609
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: other stuff? It's that it's the the w and NWS

610
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: are hot right now right, and when one one team

611
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: goes for sales, it's okay, great there, I may not

612
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: have an opportunity to get into this league for another

613
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: three years, or when I do have an opportunity again,

614
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 2: the price may be five x now because they've ten

615
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: x in the past, uh in the in the past

616
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: two years. That stuff is is a little bit harder.

617
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: But the biggest thing that helps us in our valuations

618
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: is that every time a team sells and we know

619
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: the price, we have a new data point. So every

620
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: time there's a new sale, you now have like an

621
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: anchor price with which to kind of hinge every team

622
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: above and below it on in some kind of way.

623
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, all of that, I guess to say that

624
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: leagues like the NWSL actually quite easy to value because

625
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: every team sells. So again, every team is sold in

626
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: the past, in the past five years, so so every

627
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: time that happens, it's like, okay, great, we can now it.

628
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: Just all these numbers.

629
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: Accordingly, so evaluation. You mentioned most of these, but revenue streams,

630
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: so that's media rights, licensing, merchandise, tickets, corporate sponsorships, market

631
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: size comes into play. How much growth could they have

632
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: based on where they are? Brand value, how do people

633
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: know their logo, their stuff, whatever, assets, stadium facilities, intellectual property.

634
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: That comes into play to what do they own? What

635
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: do they already have built? So we kind of get that.

636
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. Where I get lost sometimes

637
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: and you kind of articulated a little bit you started

638
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: is the relationship between valuation and revenue and how we

639
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: can have leagues and teams losing money valued in the

640
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars. And I think the scarcity,

641
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: the vibes, all of that is part of it. But

642
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: can you walk us through that because it is sort

643
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: of fascinating to me, And the lack of transparency, especially

644
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: in the WNBA in terms of financials, makes it very

645
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: hard to argue with people who are like, look at

646
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: how much money they lose every year, and you want

647
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: to be like, look at how valuable they are, and

648
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: you're like, how do those go together? And how do

649
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: you have a thoughtful and smart conversation about why you

650
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: could lose money and still be very valuable.

651
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: You're totally right, and American business, business worldwide is littered

652
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: with companies like this, right, Uber lost money forever, right,

653
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: Draft Cacks, Netflix. Right, there's a very and a lot

654
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: of people who give you that argument that, oh, we

655
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: lose money are doing that knowing that they're kind of

656
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: it's smoking mirrors to a degree, right, because yeah, if

657
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: your team pick an NWSLF team goes from two million

658
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: dollars to one hundred million dollars of net worth in

659
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: in in five years, right of valuation. Yeah, that's ten

660
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: years of ten million dollar losses operating losses every year, right,

661
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: just captured in that appreciation. So a lot of people

662
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: who make that argument, I think are know what they're doing, right,

663
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: and are trying to kind of rhetorically shift the conversation.

664
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: I think the other side of that is that the

665
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: NBA has lost a lot of money on the w

666
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: in the past thirty twenty five thirty years, Right, It's

667
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars. But yeah, I think the

668
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: easy answer is, like some of this is just sports economics.

669
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: Manchester United loses money. It's one of the most valuable

670
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: sports teams in the world. It's worth four or five,

671
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: six billion, whatever you want to call it. It's worth

672
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: billions of dollars. Yeah, that team loses money. Angel City,

673
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: the most valuable NWSEL team, loses a lot of money

674
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: a year. This is the thing that maybe scares me

675
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: about Nwoslifi was an investor, is like, this team is

676
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: like the paragon business wise. Everybody points to them. They're

677
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: super valuable, even they're not making money, right, They're making

678
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: so much in revenue, but they're also spending so much.

679
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: But you just said that about Manchester United. Are you

680
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: worried about them?

681
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: Honestly? Yeah, I think the economics of European soccer for

682
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: an investor terrifying. There's no cap on pay right right?

683
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: So do you think there could be a bubble burst?

684
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: Because it feels to me and this is something I

685
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: said ten years ago. I think at ESPN they did

686
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: a survey of like would what's a good idea you

687
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: think someone should do it? Deep dive on? And I

688
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: was like, will the bubble ever burst? Like how is

689
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: it possible that it's the only market that seems to

690
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 1: grow exponentially every single year?

691
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's I've been saying a resets coming

692
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: for a while. I wrote a column last year called

693
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: Divest from Sports that a lot of people criticize me

694
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: for yeah, the changes in media are the big thing

695
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: that I would point to, right, that's so much of

696
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: and in a way kind of the w and NWSL

697
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: are not. They're valued on something that's more than just

698
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: the media, whereas, like you look at the NFL, like

699
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: the media deals are are the central thing. But the

700
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: way that local media is changing, and a lot of

701
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: teams in baseball and in the NBA and the NHL

702
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: are cashing a much smaller local media check than they were,

703
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 2: and who knows what that looks like. And then the

704
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 2: layer on top of that the fact that every league

705
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 2: now is talking increasingly with Amazon and Netflix and Apple,

706
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: and in ten years when they are the bidders and

707
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 2: the local traditional broadcast cable networks are doing less of

708
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 2: the bidding. That would really scare me if I'm a league,

709
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 2: because Amazon doesn't need the NFL and Netflix doesn't need

710
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: the NFL, Fox needs the NFL, CBS needs the NFL.

711
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: The companies that used to bid for sports rights the

712
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: big deals were companies that they're essentially livelihood depended on

713
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: them getting these deals. We wrote something a number of

714
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: years ago, right after the previous NFL deals were signed,

715
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 2: someone at Fox told us my priority the day after

716
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: these deals are signed, are extending my NFL deal in

717
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: eight years, right, Like, that's still my priority. There's no rest. Yeah,

718
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: but when you're talking to Apple and Amazon, these companies

719
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: don't need you, right, and that gives them a leverage

720
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: at the negotiating table that kind of flips the dynamic

721
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: a bit. So Yeah, I am I bullish on sports

722
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 2: team valuations long term. I honestly I'm not again because

723
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: I think that there's a root awakening coming for one

724
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: of the biggest revenue streams.

725
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: It's complicated because everything you just said is accurate, and

726
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: also when we have a divided attention where almost nothing

727
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: has brand recognition anymore because there's eight thousand pieces of content.

728
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: The few things we do rally around watch live care about,

729
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: sit through the commercials for our sportsndred percent and so

730
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: it has this elevated presence in a much more bifurcated landscape.

731
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: But it also is, you know, still affected by all

732
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: the changes that you just mentioned.

733
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: And there's scarcity, just real quick, They're scarcity. So there

734
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: may be thirty four NFL teams in twenty years, but

735
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: there's probably going to be thirty two maximum there's going

736
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 2: to be thirty six, right, Like, we're not going to

737
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: create a ton more of these things and for the

738
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: men's side, and that really that drives it, right that

739
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 2: that is one of the things the NFL has going

740
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 2: for it is that there's you can't just create a

741
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 2: football team and eventually hope to be the Dallas Cowboys.

742
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: We know what they are and they only sell once

743
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: every five years. And that's the thing.

744
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, so couple follow ups for you. And this

745
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: might be a dumb question, but I did tell you

746
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: I prefer to skip the math portion of the assignment

747
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: as often as possible. So, if the teams are losing

748
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: millions of dollars every year, and they have been for

749
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 1: some time, how are they operating? How do you pay

750
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: your bills? How do you pay your employees? How do

751
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: you So they're just it's like the US government, We're

752
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: just incurring debt until we like, do we have a

753
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: clock somewhere?

754
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: For women's sports, most teams are not just like occruing

755
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 2: this in debt. Most teams are just paying the losses, right.

756
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 2: I think I think if you were to ask anyone

757
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: who's buying into an NWSL team now, yeah, they're thinking about, yeah,

758
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: I know, I'm going to lose X million dollars a

759
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: year hopefully for the next five years and not the

760
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: next thirty five years. But they understand that there are

761
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: losses associated.

762
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 1: So it's essentially another investment, but not an investment because

763
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: it's gone immediately to pay off.

764
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 2: Yes, and as we said, if things continue to grow

765
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: valuation wise for these women's leagues, these owners are going

766
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: to get their money back. Right. The five million or

767
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: ten million dollar annual loss is going to kind of

768
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: wash out in the the LP stake that you can

769
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: sell or when you sell the team in the future.

770
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: And this is why it's so important and perhaps why

771
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 1: the NWSL and it was criticized at the time and

772
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: part because it pushed out a lot of women that

773
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: were interested in ownership. But they changed their policy and

774
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: required that the majority owner be able to shoulder all

775
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: of the financial load buying a new team, and that

776
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: they had to be a billionaire, which is like, we're

777
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: down to like Oprah, whichever jen or is currently selling

778
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: a lip kit from then life on, that's really it, right,

779
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: And so that sucked when there were groups of women

780
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: who wanted to come into ownership and operate the way

781
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: that women's sports have promised and want to instead of

782
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: it always being dependent on one super rich dude and

783
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: the culture and toxicity that sometimes follows. But you also

784
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: understand why they do that because essentially, not only do

785
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: you have to have enough to buy it, but you

786
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: have to have enough to keep pouring in when you're

787
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: not making anything back year after year for the foreseeable future.

788
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 2: We had an interesting conversation with Jess Berman, the NWSL

789
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: commissioner after Sixth Street bought the essentially was the control

790
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: owner of the the Bay Area expansion team, and asking

791
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: some of these questions about why are you comfortable with

792
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: a kind of nameless, faceless institutional fund as the person

793
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 2: and her What she said is that they basically put

794
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: in guardrails to make six Street more like a person,

795
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: and they wanted Alan Waxman, who runs Sixth Street, they

796
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: wanted him sitting on the board, and they wanted him

797
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: personally tied to the money decisions so that instead of

798
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: if something were to if COVID were to happen again

799
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: and suddenly like the league shuts down for a year

800
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 2: and now every owner has to there's capital calls and

801
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: every owner has to put in twenty million of their

802
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: own money just to float the league to the next year.

803
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: That that's a one person's decision. That's Allen's decision. That's

804
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: not the cow fund that at Sixth Street kind of

805
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: deciding as a board to make those decisions. So in

806
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: some ways, yeah, they are treating some of these institutional

807
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 2: funds like individuals for a lot of the reasons that

808
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: that that that you're talking about.

809
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: It's like the corporate personhood argument totally. And that is

810
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: super PA.

811
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 2: And you mentioned earlier the kind of the rhetoric around

812
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 2: losing money. It's one of the main things that a

813
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: lot of these groups use in their labor talks, right

814
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: and it's central in the NBA labor talks right now.

815
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: But right so, I want that was one of my

816
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: other follow ups is when Adam Silver talks about losing

817
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: money publicly in a way that most other leagues, like

818
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: the MLS otherwise won't offer up. Is he doing that

819
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: to be intentional about lowering their costs and getting leverage,

820
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: but also doesn't it hurt the product he's ultimately trying

821
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: to sell.

822
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: I think it's maybe a little bit of both. The

823
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: w is slightly. As I said, it's kind of a

824
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 2: different situation that the NBA has like really lost money, right,

825
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 2: They've really lost money, and their owners, the ones who

826
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: owned teams, have really made money from at least from

827
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: evaluation standpoint, in the last few years, right. And I

828
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: think the W is in this place where things are

829
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: really strong right now. I think a lot of fans

830
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 2: think it stronger than it is financially. And the opposite

831
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: is also true that like the rhetoric around the way

832
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 2: some NBA owners talk about what they've lost, et cetera,

833
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 2: is maybe underselling just how strong things are right now.

834
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 2: And this is what all labor negotiations are. It's like

835
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: trying to meet in the middle, right and trying to

836
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: figure out And someone told me once that that basically

837
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: all of these labor talks you basically know where they're

838
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 2: gonna end the minute you start, and sometimes they take years,

839
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: and sometimes you lose preseason games or you lose parts

840
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: of seasons, and it like kind of ends up roughly

841
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: in the middle. So I yeah, my feeling on the

842
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 2: W labor is that like they're gonna get players are

843
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: gonna get a great deal, everyone's gonna get paid a lot,

844
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: a lot more, which they very much deserve. It's going

845
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 2: to be less than what players I think probably think

846
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: they want or what they deserve right now. It's going

847
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: to be more than what the league right now wants

848
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: to give them, I think. But they're gonna meet in

849
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 2: the middle, and I think they're gonna do so because

850
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: this is just such a moment, right and it would

851
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 2: be such a catastrophic shame and also business mailpractice, I think,

852
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: to lose games at this moment when nobody is there's

853
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: never been more talk and more conversation about the league.

854
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: I will say that within that context, WNBA players have

855
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: more leverage and more power than any modern men's union.

856
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: Why are the valuations in the NWSL so much higher

857
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: than the WNBA Angel cities at two hundred and fifty million,

858
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: the aces I think are the current highest at one

859
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: hundred and forty million. What contributes to that?

860
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: I think there's a few things. I think we've talked

861
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: about some of them. One, the equity structure of the

862
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: WNBA is different than it is in NWSL, so I

863
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 2: think that's one. I think, in some kind of long

864
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: term tail, if both these leagues become insanely popular. Let's

865
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: say the fan base doubles in the next five years.

866
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: The WNBA teams are going to be playing in fifteen

867
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: thousand seed venues, right. NWSL teams can play in way

868
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: bigger venues, Right, So there's upside economics. I think they're

869
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 2: to a degree. I think the NWSL's getting through its

870
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: its labor talks and also a totally different structure than

871
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 2: we've seen in any other major American sport at all,

872
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: but of hewing its way more towards the way that

873
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 2: that labor exists in European soccer, both men's and women's.

874
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: I think that's a big opportunity.

875
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: Getting rid of the draft, putting themselves on.

876
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think all that stuff I think gives gives

877
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 2: a lot of upside. I wouldn't be shocked to see

878
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: the w NBA numbers continue to tick up. And who

879
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: knows it is? It is funny to me. I've talked

880
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: to it Kurt, who does our valuations about this that

881
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 2: for a while they were like basically the same numbers.

882
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 2: You could like interlace the NWSL and the w NBA

883
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 2: like this, And I was like, that doesn't like all

884
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: they have in common is that they're just women's leagues, like,

885
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: doesn't doesn't make sense that they're basically all worth the same.

886
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 2: And you're right that the NWSL has has ticked upwards. Yeah, again,

887
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: I also think that if in a world where like

888
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: the NWSL, the W NBA ownership turns over and it

889
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 2: can't happen in the full way because there's NBA owners

890
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: involved here.

891
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: But right, that's part of it too, is it gets

892
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: bigger by virtue of just the resale.

893
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: Of exactly and and the and the NWSL ownership meetings

894
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: right now have very impressive, powerful people like Willow and

895
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: Michelle Kang and Alan Waxman, and people who have made

896
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: a lot of money both in other sports and also

897
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 2: in other parts of business, and that's really valuable. Yeah.

898
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think there's a there's a few things

899
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: that at play there. But again I wouldn't I wouldn't

900
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: be shocked to see w numbers continue to tick up.

901
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: The power of Caitlin Clark and and Angel Rees and

902
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: others as well. There's nothing like that in in the NWSL,

903
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 2: right the name.

904
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: Recognition the individual players yep.

905
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: So and more people watch on TV the W than

906
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: watch NWSL at least right now. So there's definitely some

907
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: business levers that are interesting. But if you're looking to

908
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: buy a w NBA team, again, the fact that that

909
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 2: that you're only buying into a forty two percent pool

910
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: of the league and not one hundred percent pool of

911
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: the league which you are in NWSL, Yeah, I think

912
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: that also serves as kind of a not a cap,

913
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 2: but it's definitely pressuring down valuations to a degree.

914
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: I learned a billion trillion, Evan. Thank you for saying

915
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: it in a way that even I could understand, and

916
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,479
Speaker 1: hopefully our listeners to thank you so much for the time.

917
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: We'll do the Lightweight Football Pod next time, right, Okay.

918
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we got to take another break. When we

919
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: come back, I bid farewell to the show that gave

920
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:31,959
Speaker 1: me my favorite job ever. Welcome back, slices. We always

921
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: love to hear from you, so hit us up on

922
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us

923
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 1: a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy

924
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. It's real easy.

925
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: Watch the final episode of Around the Horn, airing tomorrow,

926
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: rating zero out of zero stars to whoever canceled this

927
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: legendary show review The Show that Changed My life will

928
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: air one final time tomorrow after twenty three years on ESPN.

929
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: Some of you may be around the horn, diehards watching

930
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: since the early days of Woody Page, and others may

931
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 1: be newer fans just catching the recent days of still

932
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: somehow Woody Page. And maybe a few of you have

933
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: just caught a glimpse of the show, maybe at the gym,

934
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: the airport, at the bar, the now instantly recognizable snapshot

935
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: of four panelists in boxes surrounding a handsome, smiley Italian

936
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: host wearing all black. Well, the show is ending, and

937
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: not because of ratings. They're still great. In fact, no

938
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: one seems to have a good answer as to why

939
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: the show won't continue past tomorrow. And while we're all

940
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: very sad that host, the incredible Tony Reality and everyone

941
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: else involved, from producers to panelists to fans, have at

942
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: least been given time to mourn and to celebrate. The

943
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: last several weeks have seen the return of old panelists

944
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: like yours truly, and the opportunity to remember the funniest

945
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: and most ridiculous moments as well as the times Tony

946
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: shared his humanity and heartbreak and made everyone watching feel

947
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: seen and less alone. We all everyone involved with the

948
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: show call it a family, and really it was a

949
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 1: rare space in this business that felt supportive, empathetic, nuanced, clever,

950
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: and also always in search of diverse, thoughtful opinions. It

951
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: was somehow a game show with a winner, and yet

952
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: still the least competitive space in sports. Everyone wanted everyone

953
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: else to shine, mostly thanks to Tony, who knew not

954
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: only every sports stat, score and reference, but also every

955
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: pop culture joke or reference we would drop on him,

956
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: from Whitesnake to Animal House, West Side Story to Austin Powers.

957
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: The show was the best. It changed my career and

958
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: it changed my life. And no matter what mood I

959
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: was in when I went to sit down, I always

960
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: left happy. So I'm really going to miss it. Go

961
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 1: watch tomorrow five pm Eastern on ESPN. There are some

962
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: pretty awesome surprises planned. At least one of them is

963
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: someone you're gonna really really like. Now it's your turn,

964
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game, Eban,

965
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 1: good game around the Horn, you whoever decided to cancel

966
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: Around on the Horn. Good game with Sarah. Spain is

967
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue

968
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,479
Speaker 1: Sports and Entertainment. You could find us on the iHeartRadio app,

969
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by

970
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones.

971
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan

972
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez,

973
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: Grace Lynch, and Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy

974
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain