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Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the

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Speaker 1: Velvet Edge podcast. So let's talk about love. It's one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite topics, as you probably can guess by

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Speaker 1: the new direction of that casual revolving mostly around sex

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Speaker 1: and dating these days. However, as I have mentioned before

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Speaker 1: on this podcast, relationships have not always been just easy

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Speaker 1: peasy for me, and if you chose this podcast to

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Speaker 1: listen to, I would imagine that maybe they haven't always

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Speaker 1: been all romance and fairy tales for you either, although

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Speaker 1: I actually think that is probably more of the norm

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Speaker 1: than the romantic comedy version of love. For some of us,

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Speaker 1: the dynamics of our adult relationships can actually be programmed

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Speaker 1: within us from very early on. If you find yourself

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Speaker 1: unsatisfied in your relationship, feeling like you're chasing or being chased,

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Speaker 1: not feeling like yourself, feeling like you picked the same

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Speaker 1: types of guys and girls over and over again, even

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Speaker 1: feeling like you've lost yourself or your life is unmanageable,

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Speaker 1: you are not the only one. On this week's episode,

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Speaker 1: I talked you licensed therapist Jody White, who specializes in

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Speaker 1: attachment trauma and love addiction, both dynamics that are created

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Speaker 1: in our childhoods and then repeated in our adult relationships.

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Speaker 1: Jody shares from both her expert position as well as

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Speaker 1: from her experience of dealing with her own love addiction.

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Speaker 1: I also talked through some of my trauma dynamics that

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Speaker 1: I have personally struggled with within relationships, which feels extremely vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: But if there is even one person that this podcast

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Speaker 1: can help, I will keep talking. If you're struggling with

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Speaker 1: any of these attachment styles or addictions, moving out of

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Speaker 1: it can sometimes feel, honestly like you're dying, So please

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Speaker 1: know that you're not alone, and there's so much help

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Speaker 1: and so much hope out there. Here's our conversation. So

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Speaker 1: I feel like this topic can get a little heavy

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Speaker 1: and it's a little scary, Like I was just explaining

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Speaker 1: to you. When I first heard these words, they were

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Speaker 1: very scary to me. So I just want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that our overall message here is you can heal,

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Speaker 1: there is hope, there is a solution for all of this.

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Speaker 1: But first, I think you do have to understand and

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Speaker 1: accept the problem, right, So, by definition, can you kind

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Speaker 1: of just put into words what is love addiction? Yes? Um,

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Speaker 1: and so yes, it's a when you There are so

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Speaker 1: many things I want to say about the love addiction

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Speaker 1: because it's such a it's a it's an unfortunately, it's

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Speaker 1: an unfortunate name for something that is actually because it

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Speaker 1: does not describe what this is. And I should also

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Speaker 1: say I call love addiction a disorder. It is not

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Speaker 1: technically a disorder. You can be diagnosed with love addiction.

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Speaker 1: It's not in the d s M. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: there's no criteria. UM. A psychiatrist is going to say,

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Speaker 1: here's here's your here's your diagnosis for love addiction. It

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Speaker 1: is UM. But I call it a disorder because when

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Speaker 1: I first learned about my love addiction, it helped give

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Speaker 1: weight to this thing that I had been dealing with

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Speaker 1: for thirty years. You know, it made it's because it

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Speaker 1: was whoa UM. Because it is a set of disordered behaviors.

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Speaker 1: Really so. But but to go back to what love

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Speaker 1: addiction is, it's like I always start with what love

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Speaker 1: addiction isn't okay, it's it is not an addiction to love.

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Speaker 1: It's not addiction to being in love. It actually has

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Speaker 1: really nothing to do with healthy adult love as as

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Speaker 1: we would know it or should know it has grown ups, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: if you break it down into love towards love and addiction.

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Speaker 1: So love it's the love that we it was our

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Speaker 1: first love. It's it's that attachment love that we experience

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Speaker 1: with our primary caregiver when we are very very, very

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Speaker 1: very young. I mean this is pre verbal. You're so tiny.

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Speaker 1: So that first love, that first attachment connection that you have.

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Speaker 1: And so if there is an interruption in that catchment,

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Speaker 1: which my theory on this is that there often is,

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Speaker 1: UM and we'll talk about that in a in a minute,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you have that interruption and attachment. And

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Speaker 1: so as you develop as a child, if you don't

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Speaker 1: have consistent attachment with your primary caregiver, which is usually

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Speaker 1: a parent but not always UM, you constantly are seeking it,

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Speaker 1: you know, because even though you're little, you know what

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Speaker 1: that is is survival. You know, you need to be

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Speaker 1: loved and cared for in order to survival. That's how

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Speaker 1: we're wired, right and so UM. But the thing is,

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Speaker 1: we have parents often who are not available for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: because we live in a society where parents are stressed

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Speaker 1: a lot. All of us are stressed most of the time.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you think about parents and they're having

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Speaker 1: to work. Maybe both parents work, or sometimes you've got

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Speaker 1: a single parent who's working two jobs and they're just

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Speaker 1: not able to be as physically or emotionally available for

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Speaker 1: the child as they would like to be. UM. But

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Speaker 1: then you throw in um either either could be mental

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Speaker 1: health issues UM with the parent or addiction issues UM.

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Speaker 1: And you know there's also there they have their own wounding.

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Speaker 1: You know, they've got their own wounding that hasn't been

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Speaker 1: dealt with, just like their parents had their own wounding

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Speaker 1: that hasn't been dealt with, and so it's handed down

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Speaker 1: in that way too. So the point of this is

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Speaker 1: that it's very common to experience some sort of interruption

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Speaker 1: in the attachment UM when we are children. So UM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So that's what we're talking about. What we're talk about love.

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Speaker 1: It's like the first love that we have that we

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Speaker 1: experience and so and that's really in the form of

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Speaker 1: what we call unconditional positive regard. So it's knowing that

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Speaker 1: you are loved no matter what, You're lovable, you're worthy,

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Speaker 1: and UM, no matter what you do you're messy or

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Speaker 1: imper affect your your spontaneous, authentic self. When you're a kid,

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Speaker 1: and you can count on that unconditional positive regard. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's okay to be you. Um, But if you there's

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Speaker 1: an interruption around attachment, if a parent isn't consistently available,

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Speaker 1: that unconditional positive regard might either be inconsistent or sometimes

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Speaker 1: we don't get it at all, right, um, depending on

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Speaker 1: what our childhood is like. So basically, UM, what happens

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Speaker 1: is we grew up looking for it, and we grew

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Speaker 1: up looking for it in a partner or even in

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Speaker 1: a friendship. You know, this doesn't just apply to romantic relationships. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it starts early. You know, it can start in

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Speaker 1: grade school. Um. You know where we start seeking attachment

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Speaker 1: connection with other people. Um, and we're wired to attach.

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Speaker 1: That's that's not an unhealthy thing. It's when we start

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Speaker 1: early with putting people in a pedestal or making them

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Speaker 1: more valuable than we are, or looking to them to

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Speaker 1: validate us, right. Um. And so that's where we're seeking

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Speaker 1: that unconditional positive regard from someone else so that we

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Speaker 1: can feel lovable and worthy versus knowing that we're lovable

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Speaker 1: and worthy. So I like that definition about seeking the

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Speaker 1: unconditional positive regard because you know, addictions. It feels like

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Speaker 1: such a dirty word sometimes, like it's like such a

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Speaker 1: hard word to swallow. Specifically, I think around love because

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Speaker 1: I know, for me, the first time I heard this

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Speaker 1: word and this this these kind of definitions, it made

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Speaker 1: me just feel insane because I was like, how do

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Speaker 1: you have an addiction to love? And as you said, like,

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Speaker 1: are are you just going to seek it out from anywhere?

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Speaker 1: Is it the actual addiction to love? But really what

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Speaker 1: love addiction is an addiction to the process of that

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Speaker 1: right exactly, It's a process addiction and so it's the

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Speaker 1: process of getting So let me like, Okay, for example,

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Speaker 1: I read something on Instagram the other day that was

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Speaker 1: I started a hashtag a long time ago it's love

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Speaker 1: addiction Awareness and um, which is awesome. People are using

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Speaker 1: it now, but there's still a lot of misinformation out

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Speaker 1: there about love addiction. And one of the posts was

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Speaker 1: about that love addiction is an addiction to another human

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Speaker 1: and and based on the theory that I work with,

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Speaker 1: which is p M melodies work, that is not the case.

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Speaker 1: It's not you're not addicted to that person. You're addicted

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Speaker 1: to the process of trying to get something from that person.

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Speaker 1: So that you can feel okay because it but it

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Speaker 1: looks like an addiction to that person from the outside,

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Speaker 1: and it also feels like if you're addicted to that person, um.

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Speaker 1: But if that the thing is Because this starts so

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Speaker 1: early in childhood, it's really it starts with a fantasy, fantasy,

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Speaker 1: you know, the let's go back to you know, the

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Speaker 1: the pain because this is all childhood trauma. And we

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Speaker 1: can talk more about that in a minute too, but

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Speaker 1: you know that trauma. It's it's painful as a child

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Speaker 1: to not be able to get what you need consistently

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Speaker 1: or the way you need it, and so we start

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Speaker 1: looking for something to soothe. And you know, kids are

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Speaker 1: good at self soothing, um. And so one of those

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Speaker 1: ways that we can self soothe this through fantasy. And

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Speaker 1: so especially for young girls, this can develop into a

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Speaker 1: fantasy if someone who's going to rescue And you know,

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Speaker 1: for me, it was I can remember being eight, around

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Speaker 1: eight or nine maybe when this started for me, and

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Speaker 1: I can remember fantasizing about there was a TV star

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Speaker 1: who had a huge crushed on and in my fantasy,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was married to him and living in

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Speaker 1: Hollywood and all these great things, and I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was pretty It was a daily fantasy, and I thought

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Speaker 1: it was just um, I thought that was pretty normal,

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Speaker 1: you know. And it's not that it's abnormal. But what

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Speaker 1: happens is that that fantasy, it wasn't so much about him,

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Speaker 1: that rescuer, although that rescuer is really necessary in that fantasy.

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Speaker 1: He had to be part of it, um, But it

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Speaker 1: was really how I felt about myself in that fantasy.

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Speaker 1: I felt good. I felt strong and powerful and important

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Speaker 1: and valuable because of this rescuer was in that fantasy,

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Speaker 1: even though he was peripheral in there, but he was necessary.

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Speaker 1: And so what happens is over time, you know, you

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Speaker 1: get into preteens, adolescents, and for me, you know, I

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Speaker 1: started with relationships UM and alcohol around the same time,

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Speaker 1: which was fourteen fifteen. And you just take that person

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Speaker 1: and plug them into the fantasy. And so then it becomes, oh,

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Speaker 1: I need to get this person to make me feel

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Speaker 1: that way, you know, I need to get this part.

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Speaker 1: And so what the point with this is is that

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Speaker 1: you take that person out when you break up you

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Speaker 1: in that relationship. It's painful, but then another person comes

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Speaker 1: along in the addiction. It happens with that person too,

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Speaker 1: So it just you just move on from relationship to relationship.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why it's not it's not really about

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Speaker 1: being addicted to a human because it's not. It's about

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Speaker 1: being addicted to the process of trying to get something.

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Speaker 1: So obviously your work is a lot around this love

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Speaker 1: addiction stuff. Um, but you have a personal journey with it,

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Speaker 1: which you've kind of just described in this the last

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Speaker 1: story you told, So do will you tell the listeners

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Speaker 1: how you personally based love addiction in your life and

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Speaker 1: found out about it and just kind of walk us

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Speaker 1: through your journey. Yeah, it's so. I'm four years into

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Speaker 1: my recovery, four and a half years and sometimes and

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Speaker 1: I'm a therapist who specializes in love addiction. Um, now

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Speaker 1: that I've learned about it, and how amazing it is

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Speaker 1: to learn about it and recover. Um, you know, I

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Speaker 1: also look at this as an epidemic. It's like an

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Speaker 1: undiagnosed epidemic. There are so many of us walking around

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Speaker 1: with this disordered behavior and thinking it's just the way

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Speaker 1: we are. We're just this is just me. I guess

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Speaker 1: nobody else deals with this this. I'm just messed up.

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Speaker 1: I'm just you know, even how the world I feel like,

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Speaker 1: how our society paints what love actually looks like. Do

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Speaker 1: you you know what? Then that's a whole another topic.

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Speaker 1: But when you just said that, that's what dawned on

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Speaker 1: me was like, I think a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: walking around not even realizing that what we're doing is

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Speaker 1: dysfunctional or not good for us our actually real love. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well yes, because the movies. Let's just go with movies,

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Speaker 1: because there's also a lot more to it, but movies

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Speaker 1: painted like you know, love is intense and um, the intensity, yes,

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Speaker 1: and so that's not really that's I mean, we can

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Speaker 1: come back to that. But being feeling in love there is,

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Speaker 1: that's a real thing. But the intensity and the drama

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Speaker 1: and the pushing and pulling, that's not healthy adult love,

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Speaker 1: you know, but we think that's what we need. A passion,

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Speaker 1: you know that's the word. Yeah. Um, but yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I started early with dysfunctional relationships, and you know, fourteen

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Speaker 1: fifteen was always after the bad the bad boy, um,

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Speaker 1: the one that was hard to get, um, chasing, lots

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Speaker 1: of chasing, and so usually early on it wasn't I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't for me, it was the chasing. Then I would

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Speaker 1: get into the relationship, get bored in it. And that

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Speaker 1: probably lasted into my early twenties until I had my

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Speaker 1: first really co addicted relationship where um, and with love addiction,

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Speaker 1: the symptoms that the three symptoms you know, and this

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Speaker 1: again is according to humanities work, but it's that we

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Speaker 1: The first one is we expect unconditional positive regard from

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Speaker 1: that person, right, so we're looking to them to make

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Speaker 1: us feel okay, we undervalue ourselves while we're in that relationship,

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Speaker 1: meaning we neglect ourselves while we overvalue the other person. Um.

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Speaker 1: Then that can look like putting them on a pedestal. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we make them into someone they're not. We

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Speaker 1: try to make them into the person we want them

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Speaker 1: to be. And this really can become obsessive and um,

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Speaker 1: it takes a lot of time and focus. And so

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Speaker 1: what happens with love addiction is where typically uh, most

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Speaker 1: often the co addictive relationship consists of the avoidance. So

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Speaker 1: the love addict and the love avoidance, and the love

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Speaker 1: avoidance is not consistently available. Um, kind of comes and goes,

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Speaker 1: and the love addict is constantly I kind of like

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Speaker 1: leaning over trying to catch, trying to pull the love

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Speaker 1: addict into the love avoidance into the relationship, and um,

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Speaker 1: it's really painful. And uh so that was really the

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Speaker 1: first co addictive relationship I had, but I dropped down

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Speaker 1: to UM. I think the biggest symptom I had was

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Speaker 1: I started using alcohol a lot more often in that

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Speaker 1: relationship to medicate, and UM, I lost about thirty pounds.

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Speaker 1: I'm wow, you know, I've got down to about ninety pounds.

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Speaker 1: I'm usually about one tw And I wasn't eating right.

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Speaker 1: People around me could see it and they just had

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Speaker 1: no idea what was going on. But um, and I

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Speaker 1: just thought, well, this is just somehow normal. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how what I thought. But when that ended and

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Speaker 1: I went through some major withdrawals and then I um

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Speaker 1: what I called took a break from dating, which really

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Speaker 1: was what is more often known as love anorexia, where

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Speaker 1: you completely shut out any sort of intimacy or any

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Speaker 1: relationships UM and really protect yourself from that because it's

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Speaker 1: so painful to go through those withdrawals after a co

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Speaker 1: addicted relationship. UM, and you don't really recover unless you

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Speaker 1: are doing recovery work, you know. So I just thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I just need to fix myself I just need to

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Speaker 1: get you know, work out again and eat better and

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Speaker 1: just avoid dating and I'll just focus on myself for

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Speaker 1: a little while and then got right back into another

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Speaker 1: relationship like that. And that's how I can continue. Where

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Speaker 1: if you're not doing recovery work and you're not addressing this, um, this,

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Speaker 1: what's the underlying attachment trauma? Really, you just continue to

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Speaker 1: get into these relationships. And looking at my history, each

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Speaker 1: one was worse, each one was more disastrous for me,

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Speaker 1: and um, the alcohol use ramped up with each one. UM,

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Speaker 1: and I just somehow I kept thinking I could fix

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Speaker 1: it between each relationship, that I was gonna fix it myself,

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Speaker 1: and I would be in therapy. That's a whole. Another

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Speaker 1: thing is, UM, I went to therapists. I saw a

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Speaker 1: therapy when I was in my twenties. Um, I'm fifty

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Speaker 1: almost fifty one right now, but I started in my

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Speaker 1: twenties and I would talk about my relationships and the

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Speaker 1: disfunction and never was attachment trauma or trauma or codependence

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Speaker 1: or love addiction discussed UM until probably the old two

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Speaker 1: thousand ten. I was in a really disastrous relationship. That

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Speaker 1: was when I was in graduate school to go back

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Speaker 1: to be a therapist, and um, I had a therapist

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Speaker 1: and new therapists say, no, this sounds like this thing

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Speaker 1: I just learned about. It's called love addiction. And she

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Speaker 1: starts to get out this binder that she had just

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Speaker 1: she had attended a week at work shopped like a

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Speaker 1: week before, so she had this big binder that she

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Speaker 1: got at the workshop. And I looked at her and said, again, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. Um No, I'm just

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Speaker 1: I know you can you can just put that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm really just completely shut her down, and it was

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Speaker 1: never mentioned again. I mean, and I don't know because

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Speaker 1: I had read about codependence, you know, and I even

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Speaker 1: had read Facing Codependence by P. A. Melody in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: So but when I heard love addiction, I said, again,

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Speaker 1: whatever that is, I don't want anything to do with it.

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Speaker 1: So um so, yeah, I I understand the aversion to

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Speaker 1: hearing that. But then, um be four and a half

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Speaker 1: years ago, I finally, you know, with each end of

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Speaker 1: a relationship, it was just I was in worse shape

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Speaker 1: every time, and four and a half years ago, I

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Speaker 1: just said I've got I can not do this anymore.

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Speaker 1: And my friend, um dr Stevie Stanford. Um. She and

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Speaker 1: I worked together in patient at a facility, and she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's this therapist. She specializes in trauma. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe she could be good. And and my

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Speaker 1: friend Stevie and I neither one of us really knew

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Speaker 1: that I was dealing with love addiction or and I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know what love addiction was. And so when

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Speaker 1: I went to see this new therapist, I mean it

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Speaker 1: was within twenty minutes. She looked at me and she said,

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Speaker 1: here's what you're here's what's going on, and she just

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Speaker 1: broke it down and my entire thirty year history of dating.

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Speaker 1: And I just was mind blown. I was just and

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Speaker 1: I felt so much relief, and at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I was terrified. I know that exact feeling. You actually

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Speaker 1: have a name for something. So it's relieving because it

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Speaker 1: all makes sense and it makes you not feel insane.

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Speaker 1: But then you're like, but what next or what does

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Speaker 1: this mean? Or am I just sucked up forever? Yes?

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Speaker 1: And and the book she gave me a copy of

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Speaker 1: Facing Love Addiction to take home, I just devoured it

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Speaker 1: because it was so validating. UM. And I think for

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Speaker 1: me at that point because like I said here, I

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Speaker 1: was forty six years old at the time, just I

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Speaker 1: was so ready to stop it. I just really really

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Speaker 1: wanted to do the work. And so you know, now,

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Speaker 1: I had someone told me this in my twenties or

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Speaker 1: early thirties, even I might have still just said here,

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Speaker 1: maybe not, you don't want to do that right now,

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Speaker 1: but you go on long enough, I think that we

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Speaker 1: just get to where it's to see that it gets

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Speaker 1: worse and worse. And that's how I look at love.

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Speaker 1: Addiction is it if it goes undetected and the work

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Speaker 1: isn't done, we will just continue to end up in

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Speaker 1: a worse in a worse place. Yeah. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you feel like this, but um, I always laugh

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Speaker 1: because people tell me that I don't have a type,

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Speaker 1: like none of my boyfriends have looked the same done

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Speaker 1: the same thing, and I'm like, and then then then

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Speaker 1: I have a type, Like I have a type. And

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Speaker 1: when you mentioned the emotionally unavailable aspect of like the

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Speaker 1: dance that you do and the relationships you get in,

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Speaker 1: all of my past relationships have been that dynamic, and

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Speaker 1: so although the people didn't look the same on the outside,

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Speaker 1: on the inside it was the same dynamic and that

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Speaker 1: is what sucks me in. Um. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that dance, but I want to

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Speaker 1: ask another question. When you say you amped up your

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Speaker 1: drinking as a medicator, what were you medicating I think

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Speaker 1: the discomfort. Um, Well, so when you're in the co

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Speaker 1: addicted relationships. So here's how I and the cycle works. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: let's just say you're cruising along and you're okay because

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Speaker 1: you're not in a relationship, so you're feeling pretty good

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Speaker 1: about yourself, and then you meet someone and as a

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Speaker 1: love addict, what I would do is if I met

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Speaker 1: someone who was um available and healthy, I usually felt like, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's just too available, too too much for me, right,

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Speaker 1: and it just wouldn't click. But someone who you know,

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Speaker 1: I really believe this is an energetic thing too, that

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Speaker 1: you can pick up on. He's there, but there's something

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Speaker 1: not quite available, and all this subconscious stuff is like

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Speaker 1: you're more drawn as a love addict to that not

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Speaker 1: quite available person. Um, But initially things seem okay. You

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Speaker 1: know they're you're dating he's because that's what a love

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Speaker 1: avoidance does. And by the way, love avoidance aren't bad people.

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Speaker 1: Lots of us are actually addict avoidance, and that's I'm

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Speaker 1: an addict and I can and an avoidance I can

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Speaker 1: be Yeah. Um, so when we talk about love avoidance,

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about the bad guy here, um, but

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Speaker 1: the behavior is based on their own childhood wounding. So

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Speaker 1: you know, you're you're dating, you're starting out in this relationship,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly there's a tiny shift and the love

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Speaker 1: avoidance will start to pull away a tiny bit, and

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Speaker 1: the love addict that triggers right away are abandoned wound

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Speaker 1: and our fear of abandonment, and we it triggers our anxiety,

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Speaker 1: and so we'll start to overfunction in the relationship right

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Speaker 1: and then as the love avoidance since is that, they'll

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Speaker 1: start to pull away more and so then we're just

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00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 1: getting really really getting anxious and so um, it's becomes

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00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: that push pull, you know, and then maybe the love

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00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: act will step back a little, then the love avoidance

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Speaker 1: that leams in, and it's just this back and forth

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00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: and back and forth. But so the alcohol, when I

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Speaker 1: look back, I was medicating the anxiety. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting to what you mentioned about,

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Speaker 1: like the love avoidant peace. Um at the beginning a

395
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Speaker 1: lot of times, aren't the more avoidant personalities maybe even

396
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Speaker 1: like they come on a little strong or it's like

397
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Speaker 1: what do they call it love bombing a little bit

398
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Speaker 1: like at the beginning, isn't it at that dynamic? And

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Speaker 1: then like you said, it's something snaps and they start

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00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: to shut down and that's when all of this stuff

401
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: gets activated. Yes, so if we look at okay, so again, UM,

402
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: I always want to make sure a credit phmality because

403
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 1: this is all yeah, you know, her work first of

404
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: all got me in recovery and I use it in

405
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: my therapy practice in my coaching practice and it's just amazing. Um.

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00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: But she has really broken it down into So if

407
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: you look at two types of childhood trauma, one is

408
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: the neglect um and one is a meshed. And so

409
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: with amashment you look at low avoidance typically not always,

410
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: but typically they have experienced some sort of amashment in childhood.

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Speaker 1: And so what the amenshment is is that they're raised,

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Speaker 1: they're put on a pedestal um. They're often called the

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Speaker 1: hero of the family. They are um, you know, they

414
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: can do no wrong, They're the golden child um. And

415
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: so they had this role that they play where it's

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Speaker 1: kind of like they're they're given too much esteem as children,

417
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: so they have what is considered you know, overesteemed um

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Speaker 1: and so, but they also are needed so as the

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00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: hero in the family, there's a need like they need

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00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: to be responsible, they need to take care of people,

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00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: they need to um be there. And so they associate

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00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: intimacy or close connection with um sudication or pressure or

423
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Speaker 1: feeling trapped. And so when you start out in a relationship,

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00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: and this is again this is a lot of just um,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say I'm oversimplifying it, but it

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00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: I'm just breaking it down to more helpful terms. But

427
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: so if you the love addict and the love avoidance, yes,

428
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: the love avoidance comes on strong because they are first

429
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: of all, probably good people, but they're and they're available initially,

430
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: but then they're also they're conditioning is to be this

431
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: kind of rescuer or the uh, look how great I am,

432
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: Look look at how much self esteem I have, and

433
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: I want to bring you in with me kind of thing,

434
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: you know. But then the love addic starts to lean

435
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: in and the love avoidant goes WHOA, I feel trapped,

436
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: I feel suffocated. I feel I feel needed, and I

437
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: don't like that even though that's their conditioning, they don't

438
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: like it, and so they start to pull away. I

439
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: just think the dance is so interesting, and I also

440
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: think it's so interesting because so much of it, from

441
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: what I've read and what I've experienced in my own life,

442
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: is completely subconscious, right, Like we do not like I

443
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: have been told and this my mom used to tell

444
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: me this as a child, because you do get this stuff, honestly,

445
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: and it's been at a dynamic in my family for many,

446
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: many years. But um, my mom would say, you know,

447
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: the way that my nature and your dad's nature is

448
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: like we could walk into a room of like a

449
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: hundred or even a thousand people and we probably find

450
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: each other. Like it's like you are drawn to the

451
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: person who either you think is going to rescue you

452
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: or whatever are wounds might be or our trauma. You

453
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: are subconsciously drawn to the person that you either think

454
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: can fix that or that meets you at that same place, right,

455
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: And so that's what's so interesting, is like, like you said,

456
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: you could have a person come up to you who

457
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: probably would have a completely healthy dynamic and maybe having

458
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: a secure attachment and you wouldn't be attracted to them.

459
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: You know what I've always I've always been like, oh,

460
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: we just didn't have the chemistry. And now that I've

461
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 1: been doing a lot more work and just looking into

462
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: this stuff specifically, it's hard for me to trust when

463
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: I feel chemistry with someone because I'm like, is that

464
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: chemistry or is that like my dysfunction in their dysfunction meeting? Yeah,

465
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: I can understand that, and that's really hard to challenge.

466
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: One of the challenges of recovery is UM being able

467
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: to trust your instincts. Right, UM, So when you first

468
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: you accepted that you did identify as a love addict.

469
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: What was kind of the journey initially after that? What

470
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: did that look like? So? I did a lot of

471
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: therapy with this therapist. She is Meadows Trained, which is

472
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: UM the Meadows in Wickenburg, Arizona, which is p A

473
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: melodies UM. I call it p M Melodist Facility. It's

474
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: not really her facility, but she started the program, she

475
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: started the programming there. She worked there. That's how she

476
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: developed her model was was by working there. And so

477
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: the Meadows offers these trainings that are specific to UM.

478
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: What what's called is well, it's love addiction focused. But UM,

479
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, codependence is the root of love addiction. And

480
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: really codependence is what we call developmental immaturity. So it's

481
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: all this UM childhood trauma that takes place around these

482
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: certain parts of UM but the nature of a child

483
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: so UM. But the Meadows trained therapists, and so I

484
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: worked with a Meadows trained therapist. UM. I also did

485
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: an intensive workshop with her, which was a UM specifically

486
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 1: for love addiction, and tons and tons of reading and

487
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: studying and UM. One of the things I really think

488
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: helped me was it because where I was in my life,

489
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: I immediately started talking about it. UM. Which when I

490
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: started talking about love addiction, I started talking about my experience,

491
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: you know, and so all that shame that I had

492
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: for so long about my behavior and things I had done,

493
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: and UM, it was so heavy. And once I was

494
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: able to start talking about it and say, oh my god,

495
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: I figured this out look. And so I think that

496
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: that was really a big part of my recovery too,

497
00:28:54,120 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: was just talking about about it. Yeah, I mean that's

498
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: actually how I found you. And we'll talk a little

499
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: bit more about the podcast in a bit, But the

500
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: Journals of a Love Addict is the podcast that you started,

501
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: and you really just start started talking about your personal experience,

502
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: and then you're talking to other friends of yours or

503
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: people who you've met along your journey who also identify

504
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: with what's going on and can tell their stories, which

505
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: for me is um comforting. I guess it's it's the

506
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: same reason you know twelve step recovery works, because you're

507
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: sitting in a meeting with all of these people who

508
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: can identify as the same with the same things, and

509
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: they're they're telling your story, you're telling their's, and I

510
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: think it makes us all feel a little less alone,

511
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: you know. Um, But I want to talk about the

512
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: difference between codependency and love addiction and that this is

513
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: confusing to me still. And I told you a little

514
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: bit before the podcast, But I've been in recovery for

515
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: codependency for almost nine years, so like I, you know,

516
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: I was like, I've already had my crash. I've been

517
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: doing a lot of work, I've got this ship figured out.

518
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: Yet as much as my life might feel like, you know,

519
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: it feels like a lot of areas of my life

520
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: have gotten so much better since I've started working through

521
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: that stuff. Relationships have still been a struggle for me,

522
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: um because of this dynamic. And so, you know, this

523
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: was kind of a big conversation between my therapist and

524
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: I about diving a little deeper into this, and I

525
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: just could not wrap my mind around what the difference

526
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: was or why I couldn't just work through my codependency

527
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: issues and then that would fix this stuff, or you know,

528
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: like just that kind of confusion. So can you talk

529
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: through that a little bit? Yeah? Yeah, And so that's

530
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: very similar to what how my experience was like when

531
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: I first when I learned about love addiction, or finally

532
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: in recovery anyway, four years ago. For a half years ago,

533
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: I thought I was just codependent and drink too much.

534
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: I just thought, well, that's I'm not I'm not a

535
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: love I'm not anything else. That's what it is. I'm

536
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: just codependent. But I really didn't fully understand codependence either. Um.

537
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: And so once I learned about love addiction and started

538
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: studying Pia melodies work, it all started making so much

539
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: more sense. And one of the things that she says

540
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: actually is those who have the most success in recovery

541
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: from love addiction have already done some work or at

542
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: least accepted codependence as one of their issues, I think,

543
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: or as as a foundational issue. Yeah. And so even

544
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: though I didn't fully understand codependence the way that I do, knew,

545
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: I had done enough reading that I at least accepted it.

546
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: You know, I was accepting that this is probably what's

547
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: going on, um, which is driving I thought it was

548
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: driving my alcohol use. I didn't realize that it was

549
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: driving my functional behavior in romantic relationships too. Um. But

550
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: so here's how I look at codependence comes first. So

551
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, um, I look at it at

552
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: codependence as the garden, and then love addiction is the

553
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 1: weeds that growth kind of the garden. And so until

554
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: we tend to the actual garden, we're gonna keep getting

555
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: the weeds. Right. Um. So with the five symptoms of

556
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: codependence that according to Tapia's work, is that so we

557
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: have issues wounding around certain during childhood, right, and so

558
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: those that wounding or that trauma leads to uh, five

559
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: symptoms of codependence. And one is an issue with self esteem.

560
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: And so that's like I was talking about earlier. Depending

561
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: on if you were more amished or if neglect was

562
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: more of an issue for you. You're either you've got

563
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: too little self esteem or too much self esteem. Um,

564
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: you have an issue with boundaries, You have an issue

565
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: owning your own reality, which means really being in touch

566
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: with who you are physically, and then your thought process,

567
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: you're feeling reality and your behave you're so all those

568
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: four go into owning your reality. And then an issue

569
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: with dependency, which is really an issue with taking care

570
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: of yourself or being too dependent on others to take

571
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: care of you. Uh, and then issues with moderation. So

572
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: you know, codependence love addicts. We really do not behave moderately.

573
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: We're either all the way in, we're all the way out.

574
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: It's like we we swing from one to the other.

575
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: We don't have a middle ground. So laughing because like

576
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: nothing could describe me more well. And that's really what

577
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: issues with moderation is really. Um. You know that goes

578
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: back to boundaries too, because you know, when we have boundaries,

579
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: we can behave moderately. But if we weren't modeled boundaries, um,

580
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: or we have an issue with boundaries and we can't

581
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: behave moderately. So um, those are the symptoms of codependence.

582
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: And if you look at okay love. Addiction is rooted

583
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: in codependence, and codependence consists of these five symptoms. And

584
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: if you look at everything on us spectrum, you know,

585
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: like some people might struggle more with self esteem than

586
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: they do with boundaries or something. But to my experience

587
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: is we haven't. We have issues with all of them.

588
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: There's some sort of issue. It's like I look at

589
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: it at dials on a big wall of like UM,

590
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: some sort of computer system, and so each symptom has

591
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: this dial and um one can be turned all the

592
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: way up, and maybe one's turned down. And so we

593
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: want everything in the middle, you know, like if you're

594
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: looking at dials, we want everything to be in the middle. Man,

595
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: that sounds like so healthy. I'm just like thinking, I'm like, wow,

596
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: the middle ground of all of that, that sounds amazing.

597
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,479
Speaker 1: I remember starting recovery for codependency and also being really

598
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: confused because I would say that people in my life

599
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 1: at that time would have described me as I would

600
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: have described myself as a very independent person, and so like,

601
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not codependent, what are you talking about?

602
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: But I didn't understand first of all, I was like,

603
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: what's the boundary? I don't. I was just not I

604
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: didn't know um. And then second of all, like I

605
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: didn't realize my motivating factors behind most of the things

606
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: that I did constantly, which were to seek validation, approval

607
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: to people pleased to take care of everyone else before me.

608
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: And although I was operating from an exterior perspective as

609
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: like you know, an independent person, it was all driven

610
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: based on everyone else in my life. I didn't even

611
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: know like someone would say to me, well, what do

612
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: you like to do? I think my therapist said that

613
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: at one point. I was like, I mean, I just work.

614
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, like I just didn't even

615
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: I didn't even know what I liked in general on

616
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: a day to day basis. I couldn't tell you because

617
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: I was that out of touch with myself. Yes, yeah,

618
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: it's knowing yourself and so that's really that's you know,

619
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: one of the things I said to you when we

620
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: uh first started about doing the interview, as I said,

621
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: I just said, as long as you don't want to

622
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: talk about relationships, because I'm definitely not a relationship expert,

623
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: because what I am I really I'm an advocate for

624
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 1: this self because I believe that we have to love

625
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: and value and like and know ourselves, um, before we

626
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 1: can really be healthy in a relationship. And so that's

627
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 1: you know, my focus and my specialty is to help

628
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: people really get to know themselves because we don't. We

629
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: don't get to know our authentic selves. Um when we

630
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: have these this childhood wounding. Um, So getting back in

631
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: touch with that and knowing yourself and knowing what you like,

632
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,919
Speaker 1: I mean, and your values and there's a lot when

633
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: it comes to um getting to know yourself, uh, you

634
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: know later in life. And it's actually it's pretty amazing

635
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: when you do the to do that work. So if

636
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: that's the foundation, you described the love addiction piece as

637
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: the weeds, So where does that come into play in

638
00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: this scenario? Okay, so with you got the codependency right

639
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: and so not so the way the theory works is

640
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: that all love addicts are codependent, but not all codependents

641
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: become love addicts. And so UM, now, based on my experience,

642
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: and I'm just saying my experience for myself and the

643
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: people I've talked to, meaning in my private practice and

644
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: just friends, UM, I haven't met a lot of codependent

645
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: people who haven't developed some level of love addiction or

646
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: had it flare up somewhere. So Um, but as far

647
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: as you know with with the love addiction, you know,

648
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: for okay, So as a kid, we're talking at the fantasy, right,

649
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: and then you turn fourteen thirteen, fourteen five, and you

650
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: start you learn, oh, um, relationships help soothe my codependent

651
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, the discomfort of being myself. Basically, that's what

652
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: we're talking about as a kid. Um, So you start

653
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: looking to relationships and dating people, and that's where substance

654
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 1: you starts to usually are often you know, around junior

655
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 1: high in high school, and so then you develop, Um,

656
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: what happens a lot of times is the love addiction

657
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: goes with something else. Um, there's a lot oftentimes there

658
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: is an alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder attached

659
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: to the love addiction, or spending can happen. Food also

660
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: happens around food issues. And so underneath all of it,

661
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: you know, is really what we would look at as

662
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: the attachment wounding, which is really um, you know, I

663
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: look at love addiction as it is attachment wounding, and

664
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: we call it love addiction because that's what when I

665
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: first started specializing in this and really talking about it,

666
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: I thought, what could I call it? That would be different,

667
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: But you know, I had to put my energy into

668
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: something else rather than recreating a wheel. So it's just um.

669
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: But you know a lot of times um on the outside,

670
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: this attachment wounding will look like, oh, that person has

671
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: a drinking an issue of drinking or alcohol or substance used,

672
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: when really underneath that is trauma and or work. That's

673
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: a big one for me with work. Yes, that's really

674
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: that's that's really common too. And so you know when

675
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: you were talking earlier about some that you would look like,

676
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: people would say, oh, you're such an independent person. You

677
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: felt like an independent person? Right, Oh totally? I was like, yeah,

678
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: sure I am. Yeah, And then how did I lay

679
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: myself here? You know, it was confusing for me, but

680
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: I knew because of how I ended up having to

681
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: face my own self was because of a bad relationship,

682
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: and I knew I had By the end of that relationship,

683
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: I was so utterly aware of how lost from my

684
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: own self that I was, and I knew I had

685
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: done everything. It wasn't a very co addictive situation, but

686
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: I would have done everything possible to try to make

687
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: the other person happy, and the thing that I feared

688
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: the most still happened. And I knew that because I

689
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: had abandoned myself so much to do that that I

690
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: was sick to like I just I reckon. I was

691
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: so able to recognize it because I was so incredibly

692
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: far from myself. Yes, and that's that awareness is so

693
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: that moment of clarity. It's so important, you know, because brutal.

694
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's brutal. It is brutal. It's painful. It's

695
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: very painful. And you know, that's why a lot um

696
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: not to be pessimistic about it, but a lot of

697
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: us won't start recovery or stay in recovery um because

698
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's really hard to look at all this stuff.

699
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: And it's really complex. It's not love. Addiction is not

700
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: as simple as it sounds, which is a whole nother

701
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: and I don't like the term because it's actually very complex.

702
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: Well it's kind of like I think about it too,

703
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: as far as like alcoholism, Well, to stay sober, you

704
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: just don't drink, you know. And so this is because

705
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: it's a process addiction, which is a new term for me.

706
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: I haven't really been fully aware of that, but I

707
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: guess that's a similar thing to like if you have

708
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: a food addiction, Like you still have to eat, so

709
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: you have to learn how to do it in a

710
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: healthier way. So in this situation, it's love and so

711
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: you still want to do it because as humans we

712
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: want connection, right, But it's about the way that you

713
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: do it. Is that that's correct. Yeah, And it's really

714
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: about making sure that you know, I look at it

715
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: as we're conditioned to live externally. You know, our focus

716
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: is out there, meaning I'm gonna look outside of myself

717
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: in order to find something that's going to make me

718
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: feel good. Right, So it's a lot of external focus.

719
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: We're not really are so siety and culture really too,

720
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: we don't. It's we're not raised to focus on ourselves,

721
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, put our to really get to know ourselves.

722
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: And so if we're living constantly externally and we're not

723
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: focusing on ourselves or valuing ourselves, we're taking care of

724
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: us first. Um, we're wobbly and we're constantly leaning out

725
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: there for something. Um. So yeah, with love addiction recovery,

726
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: it's really a big part of that is really getting

727
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: working on the self because we we never did that.

728
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: So did we finish the question about when I asked you,

729
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: how is it the Weed's like, how does that end

730
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: up if if you've been working on the foundation of

731
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: codependency for a while, or as your therapist said, maybe first, um,

732
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: what ends up happening to make you dig to this

733
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: deeper layer? What ends up happening? So if you start

734
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: with love addiction and then work on the codependency that

735
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,439
Speaker 1: we're I do I mean, I don't know. I mean

736
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: for me and my journey, it's I've dealt with the

737
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: codependent see stuff first, and then now I'm kind of

738
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: diving into this other new layer of looking at the

739
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: way that I love. I also identify with what you

740
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: said about either being being the avoidant or the addict,

741
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: Like I feel like I've been both dynamics in my lifetime.

742
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: And so that was a really confusing piece of it

743
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: for me too, was like I don't know, because I

744
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: see myself shut down a lot too, you know. Um,

745
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: But anyway, so yeah, what what happens for people that

746
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: they would start to dig to this deeper layer? So yes,

747
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: and so I just want to be clear what your

748
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: question is. So we started to look at the the

749
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: childhood trauma is what you're talking about. We dig deep

750
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: and yeah, right, So in the intensives like the meadows

751
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: based intensives, or if you're working with a trauma therapist,

752
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: you would work on attachment and that would be working

753
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: with a license therapist to understands um not only attachment,

754
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: but does trauma work. And so because this is we're

755
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: talking about trauma UM And that's another thing I think

756
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: that I hear from people when we're talking about this

757
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: is that well someone will say, well, I didn't have

758
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: any childhood trauma. Nothing bad happened to me when I

759
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: was growing up. And you know, on the trauma timeline,

760
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: if you were to do a timeline it there might

761
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 1: not be any overt trauma meaning like um, the stuff

762
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: that would really stand out as oh those that's traumatic.

763
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: But when you look at you know, were you wounded

764
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: around any of these um these five core symptoms that

765
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: we just discussed about. Codependency meaning like were you did

766
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: you what happened when you were hurt? Were you able

767
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: to go to someone with someone consistently? Therefore you were

768
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: you able to express yourself um emotionally? Did you have

769
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: your emotions nurtured and taken care of UM. And this

770
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: is all in a consistent manner, right, And so when

771
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: we start to go really deep and look at that,

772
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: people will say, oh, well I did have Yeah, Okay,

773
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: so I didn't always get to do that, or I

774
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: got yelled at if I got angry, or um, you know,

775
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: I started acting out when I was about eight years old.

776
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: My parents were getting divorced, and so I was always

777
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: in trouble at school. And so there's a lot of

778
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: we look at family roles in that too, UM, the

779
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: assigned family roles, which would be we just talked about

780
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: the hero earlier, UM, but the other two that we

781
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: would work on. An escapegoat, which is the one who

782
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: acts out a lot or gets blamed for things in

783
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: the family. And then there's the lost child, UM, who

784
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: there's more neglect involved in that, where UM a lot

785
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: of workaholics are a lot would be the lost child.

786
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,919
Speaker 1: And that's also UM a lot of love addicts would

787
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: fall into the lost child. The family role where it's

788
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: don't worry about me, I got it all together over here,

789
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: y'all just going about your business. I don't have any needs,

790
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: I'm cool, don't worry about me. And UM, so we

791
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: learn to really be kind of anti dependent and not

792
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: ask for anything or even know what our needs are

793
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: and so UM. But this is going back to your question.

794
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,919
Speaker 1: If we go into like, there's a timeline we look

795
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 1: at UM called a family of Origin UM process where

796
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: we go through lots of UM information about family of

797
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: origin and experiences and we do UM feeling rejection work.

798
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: We work on carried feelings from childhood UM. So there's

799
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: a lot of deep work that's done when we really

800
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: go into working on UM, the developmental immaturity, which is

801
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: what it's codependence and then love addiction. Do you know

802
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: I hate hearing that part to the developmental immaturity. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah,

803
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: that one's a really hard one for me to digest

804
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: for some reason. Yeah, well, I thought about this the

805
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: other day. I thought, you know, it's funny about that

806
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: term immature. Is it From a really young age when

807
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 1: we're in grade school, we're telling people you're so immut

808
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: r and so, you know, we it's kind of a name.

809
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: It's a it's a bad thing, when really what that

810
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: means is we didn't do to some things that happened

811
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: in childhood. Lots of us didn't develop. Um, we didn't

812
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: mature past a certain point. We're out here functioning in

813
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: the world and we're really lots of us are teenagers.

814
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: And it's not you know what I'm talking about this, Um.

815
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure some people will be offended by that,

816
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: but it's really just the truth. You know, we you

817
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: said it earlier. We came about this honestly, um, And

818
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: it's not We're not to blame. And and also really

819
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: important part of this is to know that we're not

820
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: blaming our family of origin either. This work isn't about

821
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: placing blame. It's about shifting the responsibility because as codependence

822
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: and love addicts, we take all the responsibility and that

823
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: gets in the way of our recovery. So it's really

824
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: just shift responsibility and looking at you know, the reality

825
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: of things and self compassion is a huge part of

826
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: this work too. And um, you know, really beyond just

827
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: forgiving yourself for behavior, um, just being really self compassionate

828
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: that you know, you didn't have all the information, So

829
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: your behavior and the things that you've done you did

830
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: all about you didn't have the information. So I like

831
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: that a lot. That's like that Maya Angelo quote where

832
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: she says, uh, do the best you can until you

833
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: know better, and then once you know better, do better.

834
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: That is always that does It takes a lot of

835
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: maybe the shame around it because if you just if

836
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: you don't know, then how do you do better? You know?

837
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: So this is all about the awakening. Um So for

838
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: anyone listening who maybe has been in some difficult dynamics

839
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: and their relationships or their bumping up against similar kinds

840
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: of dynamics and relationships over and over, could you just

841
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: get of like I know, you kind of talked into

842
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: what it looked like for you with like the medicating

843
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: and but was there what made you know that like

844
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: this wasn't the way relationships were supposed to go. Like

845
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: do you remember what you were doing specifically or some

846
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: of the behaviors that just brought up all that anxiety,

847
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: the behavior that would bring up the anxiety. Um, you know,

848
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: I look back and that's the funny thing about memory,

849
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, is that it can be so clouded with

850
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: what you know now. But I do have twenty five

851
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: years of journals that right, and I look back and

852
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: I can see it. I mean I actually used the

853
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: term like I will say, I feel like I'm addicted

854
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: to this person, or I feel like an addict, or

855
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: I feel like um. You know, I'd used those terms,

856
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: but I didn't have the awareness really of what was

857
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: going on. UM. But as far as I can tell you,

858
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: one of the things that led to my re hvery

859
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: it was that, UM, I went through three years of

860
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: zero dating, and it was I thought I was taking

861
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 1: care of myself. I thought I was um being healthy.

862
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: I thought I'll never do that stuff again. I'm gonna

863
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: be better. I'm a therapist now, and everything's going to

864
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: be okay. And then as soon as I started dating someone, UM,

865
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: it all came up again. And that's the thing. It's

866
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: almost like as soon as you do it again, it

867
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: happens even more quickly. And that relationship came and went

868
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: really fast. I was three months. Then I got right

869
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 1: into another one that was about six months. And I

870
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: got right into another one that was that lasted about

871
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: three months and then ended very suddenly. And that is

872
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: when I had to look back on the last how

873
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: quickly it was ramping up and just say okay. And

874
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: and I was a therapist, you know, I am at theraist,

875
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: but at that time I just said I'm not being

876
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: congruent in my practice if I'm not doing my work,

877
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: you know, really, and that's so important to me, you know,

878
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: to be someone who not only talks about things or

879
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: but to be able to be doing that work. Um,

880
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: that feels authentic to me. So that's I'm not sure

881
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: if I answered your question as far as what really

882
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: led where I was able to start seeing it. You know, well,

883
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: I do think the pattern of getting in relationships quickly

884
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: over and over or even I identify with the not

885
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: dating for three years. Actually, when I first started to

886
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: work on my codependency stuff, I did the same thing.

887
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: I didn't date for three years, and like you said,

888
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: I thought, I just was like, oh, okay, this is

889
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: like my new life, this is the new me. But

890
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 1: a lot of my stuff does not get activated until

891
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm in a relationship, and so it's um for me.

892
00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: It looks like, um, you know, it can start okay,

893
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 1: And maybe that's because I'm not triggered to the whatever

894
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: it is yet. But I do have a habit of

895
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: picking emotionally unavailable people. They don't always look like that

896
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: at the beginning. In fact, they look very much like

897
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: they can connect emotionally, which is really confusing. But at

898
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: some point or another something happens where it shuts down

899
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: and I don't even realize what I'm doing, but I

900
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:26,959
Speaker 1: take on it's like this overresponsibility for making the relationship work,

901
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: like whatever it may be meant, whether it's maybe we

902
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: need to go talk to a therapist or I start

903
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: like I'm like, maybe I need to do more therapy

904
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: and I need you know, and I do so much

905
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: ship It's like I'm like the overachiever of trying to

906
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 1: work on myself. But I think what I'm finding out

907
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: is that's a very typical response to this stuff too,

908
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: um because you just want to fix it right, And

909
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: that's that's what I do. And I just all, uh,

910
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: start to make sure that their life is you know,

911
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 1: I'm living in their life. I'm they're happy, they're intent.

912
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 1: There are all these things that I think will help,

913
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: and before I know, my life is completely unmanageable and

914
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: my house is a mess, or I'm not doing my

915
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: best at my job, or I'm not seeing my friends

916
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: as much. Like it just it starts to spiral and

917
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: unmanageable is the best world that I can come up with,

918
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: because it's just like it's completely out. It's just like

919
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 1: a spiral, you know. Yeah, and so until it kind

920
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: of explodes, I don't even usually recognize it because I've

921
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: been doing it for so long and so well. And

922
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 1: that's the symptom, you know, the mess that we make

923
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: of our lives or how we neglect everything is assigning

924
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: too much time, attention to value to the other person person. Yeah,

925
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: I kin told it, like I would have this pile

926
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 1: of stuff that needed to be addressed, Like in that

927
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: pile would be financial stuff, my work, health, whatever. There's

928
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: a pile of stuff really needs to be addressed, and

929
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: it's gets over there about ten feet away, and I'll

930
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: take the relationship and put it right between me and

931
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: that pilot stuff. I'll just focus on this while meanwhile

932
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: that pile gets bigger and bigger and more manageable. You know.

933
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: But um, that all goes with that valuing yourself. When

934
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: you value yourself, you don't let that happen, right, And

935
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: I don't think that. I think if you value yourself

936
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: and what you're bringing to the table, accepting the bread

937
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: crumbs becomes a lot less attractive, Like, oh yeah, it

938
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 1: just doesn't appeal as much anymore. Yeah, And you know,

939
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: I just thought of something. We're talking about the symptom

940
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: of issues with moderation, and so um, you know, we

941
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: think about we can go through those periods of being

942
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: on our own and function just fine, you know, or

943
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: than we swing into let's call it love attic mode

944
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: and we're just completely everything's falling apart. And so we

945
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: want that middle ground, you know, that's that moderation. Yeah. Um.

946
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: Of And but a big part of that is it's

947
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 1: got to be your valueing yourself. UM. But you had

948
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: said I listened to one of your episodes, a recent

949
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: episode of your the podcast, and you were talking about

950
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: how a society and culture tells us, especially it starts

951
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: when we're little, especially little little girls, that you need

952
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: someone to take care of you. And and that is

953
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 1: so ingrained in us. And so that's something we have

954
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: to kind of rework that in our in our in

955
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: the work that we're doing. UM. And that's our conditioning,

956
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 1: which is just kind of like we have to learn

957
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: how to um that it's okay, not you don't need

958
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: someone else to take care of you. You need to

959
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: take care of yourself. And then the relationship is like

960
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: the icing on the cake. You know, you're the cake

961
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 1: and there's some icing. Yeah, I think that is a

962
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: lot harder from women. From what I owe that conversations

963
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 1: that I have, at least, it seems like men have

964
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: a better grasp one, Well, I need to take care

965
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: of myself first and then these things. And I don't

966
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: know if that's just programming, if it's our biological time clock,

967
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: maybe a combination of all of it. Yeah, I definitely

968
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: agree that's and that's what I When we're little girls,

969
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: we are definitely taught. It starts so early. Um. But yes, yeah,

970
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: Well the podcast is called Journals of a Love Addict Um.

971
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: It's on Spotify, iTunes, Apple podcast, basically anywhere you you

972
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: can listen to podcast, right, Yes, you can just search

973
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,280
Speaker 1: Journals of a Love Addict UM. We were talking before

974
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: the podcast about a workshop you have coming up. I

975
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: know we've kind of dabbled into maybe the basics of

976
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: love addiction and what that can look like. So I'm

977
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: sure there's a lot of people who might have more

978
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: questions and so can you kind of talk through this workshop.

979
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: This might be a good place for people to go

980
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: if they do identify a little bit or they're starting

981
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: to maybe want to dabble into looking into this stuff. Yeah,

982
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 1: it's UM. It's a six week online works up that

983
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: I lead. I'm actually wrapping one up UM next week

984
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: and they'll start. I'll open registration for the next one

985
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: October twenty six and we'll get started in early November.

986
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: But it's six weeks. Uh. We go through what love

987
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: addiction is, what love avoidance is, We go through all

988
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: five symptoms of codependence UM, and start really looking at

989
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: what recovery would look like. UM, and help people get

990
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: a foundation so that they can then go out in

991
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: the world and um, you know, to decide what what

992
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: the next step for their recovery would look like. Because

993
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: because everyone's recovery looks different, right, everyone's in a different place. UM.

994
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: Some people have already done a lot of work, some

995
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: people are just embarking on the work. Some people are

996
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: just learning about love addiction and so um, everyone has

997
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: a very unique experience with recovery. So and I know

998
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: we said the beginning of the podcast, we don't want

999
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: this to seem dooms Day at all. But after your

1000
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: four years of recovery work, I mean, have you found

1001
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: any kind of serenity or hope or just what are

1002
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: your experiences that you could share with people to know

1003
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: that this is something that you can work through. Yes.

1004
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: Uh so the answer is yes, serenity and hope. Yeah. Um,

1005
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's sometimes it's sometimes I look back

1006
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: and I think, did that really happened? Was that really me?

1007
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: And it? And it was? Um and so that sort

1008
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 1: of self and I don't even really go into shame

1009
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: anymore because I've done so much work around that. It's

1010
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: not that the shame isn't there. I just choose not

1011
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: to go through that doorway that's more shame. But yes,

1012
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: I I am currently in um, a healthy relationship with

1013
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: someone who is available, and I will be honest that

1014
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: it's challenging for me because there are times I really

1015
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: want to rock the boat. Really I think, oh, I

1016
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: crave that intensity still, and I've accepted that that's part

1017
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: of that's probably gonna be there. And but when I

1018
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: crave that intensity, I'm able to say, what is it

1019
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm feeling right now? Um? And if there's an emotion,

1020
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: there's always an emotion. Some were driven by emotions, right, UM,

1021
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: So what is that emotion? And it's typically I need

1022
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: to connect because because I'm in this stable relationship, healthy relationship,

1023
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: I tend to be more avoidant, and so when I

1024
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: want to rock the boat and stir up some trouble,

1025
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: it means I need to connect and so move towards

1026
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: the middle again. And every time I do it, I

1027
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: feel so much better. But that is, you know, I

1028
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: believe recovery is ongoing. I don't think we ever get

1029
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: to this point where we say today I'm all recovered. Well,

1030
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: I thought I was fixed, and then I got a

1031
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: whole new one and I was like, this is what

1032
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with nine years later. Yeah, and if we

1033
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: can look at it as how awesome is that that

1034
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: we are glad? Uh, you are such a therapist. That's

1035
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: what my therapy this says. She's like, well, you couldn't

1036
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: have gotten here if you hadn't done all the work

1037
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: that you have done, because it's a deeper layer. I know.

1038
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: But I'm like, I don't want another thing. That's that immaturity.

1039
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: Maybe well no, it's also it's just we of course

1040
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: we don't. We want to think I'm done. I don't

1041
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: have to look at anymore that it's I want to graduate. Yes, yeah,

1042
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: and see Oh yes, and there's that that you like,

1043
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: we want to finish the finish line. Well, that's how

1044
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: our society works, right, It's you do all this work

1045
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: and then you get this like certificate at the end

1046
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: of it. So I'm like, where's the recovery certificate? But

1047
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 1: I guess the certificate would be the serenity, the hope,

1048
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: all of those things that you're saying you found. The

1049
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: fact that you are in a loving, healthy, emotionally available

1050
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: relationship doesn't mean you're not going to deal with the

1051
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: same things, but you have tools now, right, And I think, honestly,

1052
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: to answer your question about serenity, I think my favorite

1053
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: part of where I am in my life is waking

1054
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: up in the morning and feeling good about myself. Yeah,

1055
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: I think that's I think I wouldn't trade that for anything. Yeah,

1056
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: I love that. Well, Jody, where else can people find

1057
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: you if they have questions about love, addiction or just

1058
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: want to learn more? My Instagram which is at Jody

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01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: White l PC as a Licensed Professional Counselor, and then

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01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: my website is Jody White LPC dot com. Awesome, Well,

1061
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: I appreciate you being so open about all of this

1062
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: stuff and the work that you're doing. I follow your Instagram.

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01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: It's been extremely helpful to me on a daily like

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01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 1: just the quotes and stuff that you do helps me

1065
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: not feel so alone. So if anyone is out there

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01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: and you're dealing with any of this stuff, Jody is

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01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: a great resource, reach out to her. And I really

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01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: appreciate you being here. Thanks Kelly, I'd love to talking

1069
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: to you. Thank you guys for listening.