1 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:15,220 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everyone. 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here from Killer Thriller with Jen Fessler from 4 00:00:19,460 --> 00:00:20,420 Speaker 2: Killer Thriller Docu. 5 00:00:20,460 --> 00:00:20,790 Speaker 1: Hi, Jen. 6 00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 3: Hi, guys. Hi. 7 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:25,500 Speaker 1: And we just. 8 00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:29,260 Speaker 2: Got the verdict in the Caleb Flynn case. The former 9 00:00:29,380 --> 00:00:33,670 Speaker 2: American Idol contestant has been found guilty of murdering his wife, Ashley, 10 00:00:33,790 --> 00:00:39,110 Speaker 2: after a trial involving more than 100,000 text messages with 11 00:00:39,150 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: his mistress, texts about wanting Ashley dead, a missing gun, 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:49,210 Speaker 2: and an alleged staged home invasion. So Caleb Flynn was 13 00:00:49,330 --> 00:00:54,220 Speaker 2: found guilty on nine counts, one count aggravated murder, three 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: counts murder, two counts felonious assault, and three counts tampering 15 00:00:59,540 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 2: with evidence. 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,300 Speaker 1: Guilty across the board. What were you surprised that it 17 00:01:05,340 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: was so decisive? 18 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:09,830 Speaker 3: No. And it's, it's funny. Cause I was thinking, you know, 19 00:01:09,850 --> 00:01:11,550 Speaker 3: we didn't know that the verdict was going to come 20 00:01:11,569 --> 00:01:14,910 Speaker 3: in before we recorded. And I was thinking about how 21 00:01:14,930 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: I'm going to have to remember to say, alleged in 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,860 Speaker 3: front of everything and thinking, which is so stupid because 23 00:01:21,940 --> 00:01:25,060 Speaker 3: clearly like there's, I mean, he did it. It was 24 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,090 Speaker 3: so preposterous, right? It was like, yeah, someone snuck in 25 00:01:28,150 --> 00:01:30,550 Speaker 3: while you were on the couch, only put two bullets 26 00:01:30,590 --> 00:01:35,190 Speaker 3: in her head, ran out, nothing else. You told the 27 00:01:35,230 --> 00:01:37,170 Speaker 3: mistress you were going to do it tomorrow. It's all like, 28 00:01:37,290 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 3: of course, like, of course he was getting found guilty. 29 00:01:40,940 --> 00:01:42,580 Speaker 2: And he also in the 911 call, he says, my wife, 30 00:01:45,450 --> 00:01:48,940 Speaker 2: has two gunshots in her head. So a man who 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,340 Speaker 2: is shocked by this does a count of what's going on. 32 00:01:52,420 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: He also didn't check on his children until they told 33 00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:56,580 Speaker 2: him to. 34 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,130 Speaker 3: I wanted to also, do you know, did they talk 35 00:01:59,150 --> 00:02:01,170 Speaker 3: about how did the kids not wake up? Did he 36 00:02:01,190 --> 00:02:01,910 Speaker 3: have a silencer? 37 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:03,250 Speaker 1: I was wondering that too. 38 00:02:03,450 --> 00:02:06,350 Speaker 2: There must've been a silencer is my guess because how, 39 00:02:06,750 --> 00:02:09,230 Speaker 2: because also the thing about the dogs that the dogs 40 00:02:09,650 --> 00:02:13,210 Speaker 2: woke him and that's why he went There were so 41 00:02:13,310 --> 00:02:17,630 Speaker 2: many things to his story and there was zero evidence 42 00:02:17,810 --> 00:02:19,910 Speaker 2: that he was not guilty. 43 00:02:19,940 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 3: From the beginning. Listen, justice prevails. I mean, that's the 44 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:28,260 Speaker 3: only thing, thank God, that this family has justice. And 45 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 3: I don't think that there was the same kind of 46 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,489 Speaker 3: discord there was over the Lindsay Clancy case with everybody 47 00:02:35,530 --> 00:02:38,650 Speaker 3: being so divided. I think probably everybody watching and listening 48 00:02:39,510 --> 00:02:42,269 Speaker 3: felt like we felt, which is that He did it. 49 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:44,860 Speaker 3: He killed his wife. This piece of shit killed his wife. 50 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:50,339 Speaker 3: And the mistress is a rotten witch. And I know 51 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 3: people will say she's a child. 52 00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:55,830 Speaker 1: So I do feel, here's what, let me, I don't 53 00:02:55,870 --> 00:02:56,570 Speaker 1: disagree with you. 54 00:02:56,830 --> 00:03:01,750 Speaker 2: She is, she certainly did not murder this woman, but 55 00:03:01,970 --> 00:03:07,010 Speaker 2: she has done and said some unforgivable things. But what, 56 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,660 Speaker 2: here's what I'm really over. And I'm going to give 57 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: you my quick list. I am really over older men 58 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,980 Speaker 2: grooming younger women and then ruining their lives. I am 59 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,260 Speaker 2: really sick of men killing their wives instead of just 60 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,050 Speaker 2: getting divorced. And I am sick of people hiding behind 61 00:03:24,130 --> 00:03:27,350 Speaker 2: religion as some kind of excuse. I mean, do they 62 00:03:27,389 --> 00:03:30,450 Speaker 2: really think that God would prefer that they murder someone 63 00:03:30,830 --> 00:03:31,990 Speaker 2: that just get divorced? 64 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:37,790 Speaker 1: Or that like, I am so infuriated by by all 65 00:03:38,050 --> 00:03:38,470 Speaker 1: of this. 66 00:03:39,030 --> 00:03:42,570 Speaker 2: And the defense didn't call one witness for this man, 67 00:03:42,930 --> 00:03:43,410 Speaker 2: not one. 68 00:03:43,710 --> 00:03:46,750 Speaker 3: I feel like, did he even try to use religion 69 00:03:46,810 --> 00:03:48,570 Speaker 3: as an excuse? I don't even think he could have. 70 00:03:48,590 --> 00:03:50,490 Speaker 1: Yeah, they kept, he said, I'm going to starve. 71 00:03:50,750 --> 00:03:53,490 Speaker 2: I'm going to, I'm going to fast so that God 72 00:03:53,530 --> 00:03:55,660 Speaker 2: will get me through this and like, get me to 73 00:03:55,690 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: be able to be with you. 74 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: Like what on earth? 75 00:03:58,260 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: No, but I mean, after he, I mean, after he 76 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,180 Speaker 3: killed her, there's no like, I mean, he did it. He's, 77 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:06,100 Speaker 3: you killed your wife. There's no, You know, this is 78 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: on Jesus. I don't know, whatever he was saying beforehand. 79 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,770 Speaker 3: And the part about men, older men grooming younger women. 80 00:04:14,990 --> 00:04:17,850 Speaker 3: I think that that happens. I understand where you're coming from. 81 00:04:17,870 --> 00:04:20,849 Speaker 1: He was her pastor again. 82 00:04:20,930 --> 00:04:25,150 Speaker 3: I know. I know. And she was young. She was 83 00:04:25,170 --> 00:04:27,070 Speaker 3: like 22, I think, when they met. I don't know 84 00:04:27,110 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 3: how old she is now. 24. 24. So she's young. 85 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:34,539 Speaker 3: I have a 24-year-old daughter. 86 00:04:34,630 --> 00:04:36,339 Speaker 1: And he's 40. 87 00:04:36,339 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 3: I know. I was 24. The shit that was coming 88 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: out of her mouth, the kind of vile venom that 89 00:04:46,060 --> 00:04:51,390 Speaker 3: she was spewing and manipulating, and I don't have right 90 00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:53,690 Speaker 3: now sympathy in my heart for her. I don't either. 91 00:04:53,710 --> 00:04:55,430 Speaker 3: Even if she was groomed. No, I don't either. I 92 00:04:55,450 --> 00:05:00,630 Speaker 3: am so disgusted by this, yes, young woman, but the 93 00:05:00,730 --> 00:05:07,910 Speaker 3: way that she... disparaged, attacked, manipulated, tried to manipulate him, 94 00:05:08,270 --> 00:05:10,770 Speaker 3: didn't care about the kids, said it's full custody of 95 00:05:10,830 --> 00:05:14,090 Speaker 3: them or it's me. Like the kind of shit that 96 00:05:14,150 --> 00:05:16,810 Speaker 3: is so egregious. And I get it. She was young. 97 00:05:17,330 --> 00:05:18,010 Speaker 3: She is young. 98 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:20,930 Speaker 2: But honestly, to your point, I completely agree with you. 99 00:05:21,170 --> 00:05:25,170 Speaker 2: Being young doesn't excuse you of having no moral compass 100 00:05:25,230 --> 00:05:31,190 Speaker 2: whatsoever and no understanding, especially as a quote unquote godly person. 101 00:05:32,230 --> 00:05:34,790 Speaker 1: It is despicable to me. 102 00:05:35,390 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: Well, she was also, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. 103 00:05:37,529 --> 00:05:40,670 Speaker 3: And also I can also say she clearly is mentally ill. 104 00:05:40,770 --> 00:05:43,860 Speaker 3: I mean, a hundred thousand million messages over the course, 105 00:05:44,250 --> 00:05:47,940 Speaker 3: it was to be that in and of itself. Obsession. 106 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: Obsession. 107 00:05:48,820 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. Right. Like, like, okay, there's clearly something wrong here. 108 00:05:52,540 --> 00:05:55,700 Speaker 3: She's not right in the head. Neither obviously is he, 109 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,140 Speaker 3: and he's a murderer and a monster. So all of it. 110 00:05:59,540 --> 00:06:04,580 Speaker 1: And how, and doing this with your children, in the house. 111 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: What this man, you know, it's rare that there's kind 112 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,540 Speaker 2: of like the only, the real victims in this whole 113 00:06:13,580 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: thing are these children. Obviously his wife, who he, aside 114 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,550 Speaker 2: from his wife, I mean, it's really awful. 115 00:06:21,670 --> 00:06:21,990 Speaker 1: Yes. 116 00:06:22,230 --> 00:06:26,469 Speaker 3: And those sweet parents, you know, I, yes, yes. When, 117 00:06:26,510 --> 00:06:28,450 Speaker 3: when it was just the reading of the text messages, 118 00:06:28,490 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: when it was her reading them, he, he, I felt 119 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:36,180 Speaker 3: like he was a man who was a piece of 120 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,620 Speaker 3: shit husband who was, and we found out later that 121 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 3: he was not like, he was loving to his wife. 122 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:46,460 Speaker 3: He was, you know, they weren't, he wasn't doing what 123 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,330 Speaker 3: he was claiming he was doing in terms of like 124 00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: shutting her down and not going anywhere where she was. 125 00:06:52,130 --> 00:06:53,870 Speaker 1: Right, he was leading a double life. 126 00:06:54,130 --> 00:06:58,530 Speaker 3: Exactly. But, you know, reading, when she read the text, 127 00:06:58,770 --> 00:07:03,300 Speaker 3: it to me sounded like he had gotten involved with 128 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,339 Speaker 3: a younger woman who was, it didn't work out the 129 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,300 Speaker 3: way he thought it did when he was ready to 130 00:07:09,339 --> 00:07:13,700 Speaker 3: say goodbye. She was not having it. Now his reputation 131 00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 3: was on the line, his marriage, his kids, his life 132 00:07:17,140 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: was on the line because clearly she wasn't giving in. 133 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 3: And then he got involved in, okay, I love you, 134 00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: I love you. And then I think he also had 135 00:07:24,930 --> 00:07:29,010 Speaker 3: his own sick jealousy, but it never, from those texts, 136 00:07:29,590 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: I never would have got To murder. 137 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,700 Speaker 2: When he said, I'd kill her if I could, if 138 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,230 Speaker 2: God would forgive me? 139 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,090 Speaker 3: A hundred percent. But I still would not have thought 140 00:07:40,130 --> 00:07:44,930 Speaker 3: that this man, this American Idol contestant, with these two 141 00:07:44,970 --> 00:07:48,410 Speaker 3: beautiful daughters and the dogs and the whole, are you serious? Like, 142 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:51,390 Speaker 3: doesn't there's such, there was never, did he have any 143 00:07:51,510 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: history of any time ever doing anything violent? 144 00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: I don't think so. 145 00:07:56,820 --> 00:07:59,179 Speaker 2: But I do think to your point that it really, 146 00:07:59,220 --> 00:08:04,940 Speaker 2: the text messages really do reveal the immaturity of this woman. 147 00:08:05,150 --> 00:08:07,190 Speaker 2: And again, this is not, I am not excusing her, 148 00:08:07,830 --> 00:08:14,370 Speaker 2: but they sound like a lovesick kid who doesn't, she 149 00:08:14,410 --> 00:08:16,450 Speaker 2: almost sounds younger than her age. 150 00:08:16,450 --> 00:08:17,650 Speaker 3: 100%, way younger. 151 00:08:17,790 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: Like a teenager. 152 00:08:19,210 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 3: Yes. 153 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: Very, very immature. 154 00:08:21,780 --> 00:08:24,490 Speaker 3: Waking up in the morning, checking the phone. oh my God, 155 00:08:24,610 --> 00:08:26,050 Speaker 3: how could you have said that to me? You don't 156 00:08:26,090 --> 00:08:27,670 Speaker 3: mean it. You don't love me. I don't know what to, 157 00:08:27,850 --> 00:08:29,710 Speaker 3: I'm going to break up with you. Now we're back. 158 00:08:29,930 --> 00:08:33,510 Speaker 3: I love you. She sounded like an obsessed teenager. It's 159 00:08:33,530 --> 00:08:36,030 Speaker 3: very true. I actually like, I guess if I think 160 00:08:36,050 --> 00:08:40,590 Speaker 3: of it that way, I would have maybe more sympathy 161 00:08:40,610 --> 00:08:42,540 Speaker 3: for her. But now we have a dead woman, a 162 00:08:42,740 --> 00:08:44,459 Speaker 3: dead wife and mother. 163 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: And no, they never found a murder weapon, no gunshot 164 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:54,210 Speaker 2: residue test, which in and of itself I don't understand that. 165 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:58,309 Speaker 2: The authorities said that, well, he said he responded within 166 00:08:58,490 --> 00:09:03,250 Speaker 2: four to six seconds in calling the authorities so that 167 00:09:03,429 --> 00:09:07,270 Speaker 2: he already would have residue on him. He would not 168 00:09:07,410 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: have it on his hands. I didn't understand their logic 169 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: behind not giving him that test in the first place, 170 00:09:14,660 --> 00:09:18,660 Speaker 2: but It left them with no evidence there either, no 171 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,090 Speaker 2: blood on Caleb, and the jury still convicted him that quickly. 172 00:09:24,250 --> 00:09:28,130 Speaker 2: So were the texts, essentially, they were the murder weapon 173 00:09:28,309 --> 00:09:28,810 Speaker 2: in this case? 174 00:09:28,870 --> 00:09:30,410 Speaker 3: I think it was the text. I think it was 175 00:09:30,470 --> 00:09:34,490 Speaker 3: also his alibi. What are you talking about? So for 176 00:09:34,510 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 3: the first time, he had a coffee, slept on the couch. 177 00:09:36,820 --> 00:09:40,580 Speaker 3: It was two hours. One of his handheld devices was 178 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 3: tracking his steps and his heart rate. He got up. 179 00:09:44,650 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: They said he took, I don't remember the number, 30 steps, 180 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,780 Speaker 3: then a hundred steps. 181 00:09:47,860 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Like the whole time he said he was sleeping. 182 00:09:50,620 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 3: Exactly. So they had that. They said they can't, they 183 00:09:53,870 --> 00:09:57,189 Speaker 3: can't link that absolutely to the fact that he was, 184 00:09:57,910 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 3: you know, up walking, shooting, although the steps I guess 185 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 3: they could, but it was this two hour period of time. 186 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,459 Speaker 3: It was the Apple watch, but it shows that he 187 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 3: was already lying. There was some, okay. He gets up 188 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,970 Speaker 3: within the two hours. The claim is that, and he 189 00:10:13,010 --> 00:10:15,890 Speaker 3: had guns. The claim is that someone comes into the house, 190 00:10:17,370 --> 00:10:20,900 Speaker 3: shoots a woman, twice in the head and leaves and leaves. 191 00:10:21,220 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 3: And that's it. And the kids, so he doesn't wake 192 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 3: up and the dogs don't bark. 193 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:28,170 Speaker 2: And also the, the door, the break where he claimed 194 00:10:28,210 --> 00:10:30,910 Speaker 2: that they broke in through the garage door. It's something 195 00:10:30,929 --> 00:10:33,730 Speaker 2: that it was only visible when it was open. It's like, 196 00:10:33,770 --> 00:10:35,910 Speaker 2: did he just go open the door and kick it 197 00:10:36,050 --> 00:10:39,110 Speaker 2: or something? Like, this is not a smart man. 198 00:10:39,790 --> 00:10:41,630 Speaker 3: No, but I, I wonder then, but okay. Is it 199 00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 3: that he wasn't smart or that he just couldn't say, 200 00:10:45,540 --> 00:10:47,970 Speaker 3: I want a divorce. Is it that he had been 201 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,750 Speaker 3: playing these women for so long, knowing that his wife 202 00:10:51,790 --> 00:10:52,130 Speaker 3: would have. 203 00:10:52,210 --> 00:10:53,729 Speaker 1: He's spineless, certainly. 204 00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:58,870 Speaker 3: Right, right. Or was it both, right? It's like he couldn't, 205 00:10:59,230 --> 00:11:02,540 Speaker 3: it was almost, it's so crazy, right? Because he felt 206 00:11:02,580 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 3: like it was, maybe he felt like it was his 207 00:11:05,020 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 3: only alternative. He couldn't bear losing his reputation, his money. 208 00:11:10,100 --> 00:11:11,179 Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. 209 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,570 Speaker 2: He couldn't bear- losing face, losing his reputation. I think 210 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,410 Speaker 2: part of it, that celebrity that I'm gathering, he held 211 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:24,910 Speaker 2: onto very tightly, the little notoriety that he had from 212 00:11:24,950 --> 00:11:28,790 Speaker 2: being on American Idol. And perhaps this young girl even 213 00:11:28,990 --> 00:11:31,730 Speaker 2: looked at that as some kind of, I'm close to 214 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: stardom or something. People have really unhealthy relationships to fame 215 00:11:39,140 --> 00:11:40,140 Speaker 2: in that regard. 216 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,090 Speaker 1: And so it's, Oh, so here it is. 217 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,849 Speaker 2: Okay, 119 to 156, several smaller bursts of steps on 218 00:11:48,890 --> 00:11:53,770 Speaker 2: the Apple Watch. 218 to 228, 105 steps recorded by 219 00:11:53,809 --> 00:11:57,190 Speaker 2: the Apple Watch. After that, then it stopped recording steps. 220 00:11:57,309 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: And 230, his iPhone began recording movement. And at 231, 221 00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:07,750 Speaker 2: the 911 call connected. So for almost, for over an hour, 222 00:12:08,660 --> 00:12:12,870 Speaker 2: before the 911 call, he was up and about moving. 223 00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:15,390 Speaker 3: You heard, and you heard that 911 call, right? 224 00:12:16,070 --> 00:12:17,209 Speaker 1: Yes, I did. 225 00:12:17,309 --> 00:12:24,310 Speaker 3: I mean, it was, for me, it was so obviously manufactured. 226 00:12:24,330 --> 00:12:29,260 Speaker 3: It was, that's the thing about this case. Like I really, 227 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 3: I think we go too quickly a lot of times 228 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 3: with these cases, right? And, and, really have to always 229 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 3: remember innocent until proven guilty. Guilty beyond a doubt, a 230 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:49,459 Speaker 3: reasonable doubt. There is no gun, no residue, but if 231 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,140 Speaker 3: it's me on the jury, this is easy. Two hours 232 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,219 Speaker 3: is probably an hour and 45 minutes more than I 233 00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:56,730 Speaker 3: would have needed. 234 00:12:57,450 --> 00:13:05,030 Speaker 1: It makes no sense otherwise. Why and who and what, 235 00:13:05,150 --> 00:13:07,990 Speaker 1: like none of it makes any sense if it's not him. 236 00:13:08,050 --> 00:13:09,620 Speaker 3: The fact that he called her. So he calls her, 237 00:13:10,059 --> 00:13:12,939 Speaker 3: he calls the mistress in the morning and says, I 238 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: chose you. Oh, excuse me. Hours before Ashley died, Caleb tells, 239 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,780 Speaker 3: allegedly tells the mistress, Aaliyah, I choose you. I'm free. So, 240 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,300 Speaker 3: and then he's dead. And then, then she hears that 241 00:13:30,370 --> 00:13:33,030 Speaker 3: Ashley's dead and she calls Caleb and says, were you involved? 242 00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: And it's like, it's all so, I don't know, obvious. Like, yes, 243 00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:41,700 Speaker 3: this is what happened. Right. 244 00:13:55,630 --> 00:13:58,090 Speaker 2: Let's start with one of the texts. If your husband 245 00:13:58,130 --> 00:14:01,730 Speaker 2: says he stayed up until 4 a.m. trying to figure 246 00:14:01,770 --> 00:14:04,970 Speaker 2: out how to kill you, without going to jail, and 247 00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:05,870 Speaker 2: then you're murdered. 248 00:14:06,750 --> 00:14:09,450 Speaker 1: As a jury member, how do you get past that? 249 00:14:10,190 --> 00:14:14,109 Speaker 3: All that is, listen, yes, agreed. All of that, I guess, though, 250 00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:17,420 Speaker 3: is circumstantial evidence, right? It's like people can say things 251 00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 3: and not mean them. I mean, she even said, remember 252 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,460 Speaker 3: when she had a read that she wanted her dead, 253 00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: that Aaliyah was reading where she said to him, I 254 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,530 Speaker 3: want her dead, Caleb. I really want her dead. And 255 00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:31,990 Speaker 3: she's like, Starts crying. She's like, I didn't mean it. 256 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,820 Speaker 3: I don't want to read this. I didn't mean it. Right. 257 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,060 Speaker 3: Because in most cases, people don't mean it. Right. They're words. 258 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 3: And so that could be viewed then as circumstantial evidence. 259 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,690 Speaker 3: He said, I wish I could kill her. All of that. Right. 260 00:14:48,250 --> 00:14:52,489 Speaker 1: She at least showed remorse. But again, I don't know. 261 00:14:52,510 --> 00:14:54,090 Speaker 3: I mean, is she remorseful? 262 00:14:54,270 --> 00:14:56,730 Speaker 2: Or sad she got caught, which is how I felt 263 00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:59,310 Speaker 2: about every time I saw Caleb crying. I'm like, this 264 00:14:59,390 --> 00:15:01,670 Speaker 2: is not a man who feels bad. This is a 265 00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:04,820 Speaker 2: man who was embarrassed that he was caught. And now 266 00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 2: he has to lose face and pay the consequences. 267 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:10,340 Speaker 1: That's what I saw every time. 268 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 3: You know, it was so weird to me, though, because 269 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,260 Speaker 3: when we heard about their actual marriage, as opposed to 270 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:19,620 Speaker 3: what he was telling Aaliyah, right? I'm saying that right now. 271 00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:22,130 Speaker 3: What he was telling Aaliyah, when we found out about 272 00:15:22,830 --> 00:15:25,210 Speaker 3: what their actual marriage was like, that he was, in fact, 273 00:15:26,130 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 3: writing her, love you, love you too, I'm sorry, whatever, 274 00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: what did the doctor say, gave me an inhaler. Whatever 275 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 3: it was, there was nothing acrimonious. There was no, it 276 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,150 Speaker 3: didn't sound like there was anything so unusual about their 277 00:15:43,190 --> 00:15:45,650 Speaker 3: back and forth. They did, in fact, go to the 278 00:15:45,690 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 3: movies together. Mm-hmm. she said, what should I, when she 279 00:15:48,950 --> 00:15:51,430 Speaker 3: was like, what should I wear tonight? He's like, surprise me. 280 00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:56,910 Speaker 3: So he didn't, it's like, okay, did he, was he 281 00:15:56,950 --> 00:15:57,570 Speaker 3: just so. 282 00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:59,729 Speaker 1: So then what does that? 283 00:15:59,790 --> 00:15:59,970 Speaker 3: Yeah. 284 00:16:00,010 --> 00:16:01,110 Speaker 1: Then what does that say? 285 00:16:01,270 --> 00:16:06,730 Speaker 3: Right. Does that with Aaliyah scared of, um, felt backed 286 00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:09,970 Speaker 3: into a corner, but I would say 99.999% of people 287 00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:11,510 Speaker 3: who are backed into a corner, don't then take a 288 00:16:11,550 --> 00:16:14,790 Speaker 3: gun and shoot their wives. So you know, it's bad, 289 00:16:14,830 --> 00:16:16,710 Speaker 3: it's bright. You then say, okay, well, this is, I 290 00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:19,900 Speaker 3: have to do something else. So, but I wonder if 291 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,780 Speaker 3: he ever showed growing up or they said, no, I've heard, 292 00:16:24,980 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 3: but like, did he ever show signs of violence and 293 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:30,420 Speaker 3: sociopathic behavior? 294 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:30,620 Speaker 1: Yeah. 295 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,050 Speaker 3: Sociopathic maybe, but. 296 00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:42,870 Speaker 2: I mean, This is the thing about the human nature 297 00:16:42,970 --> 00:16:47,230 Speaker 2: and sort of when you go down a path and 298 00:16:47,290 --> 00:16:52,619 Speaker 2: then it's an extreme one and it keeps going and 299 00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: you have someone who's sort of corroborating that path with you. 300 00:16:57,500 --> 00:17:00,330 Speaker 2: And then do you just start to lose your mind 301 00:17:00,610 --> 00:17:04,990 Speaker 2: and lose all sense of a moral barometer or what? 302 00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:06,930 Speaker 1: Right. 303 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:08,850 Speaker 3: And it doesn't even feel like he thought it through. Like, 304 00:17:08,890 --> 00:17:11,270 Speaker 3: it wasn't like he was like, okay, can't ask her 305 00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:13,609 Speaker 3: for a divorce. I can't do it. So I'm going 306 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:15,389 Speaker 3: to have to kill her. Like, it sounds like it 307 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:17,419 Speaker 3: was spontaneous. Like, you know what? I just can't do it. 308 00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:23,660 Speaker 3: Where's my gun? Like just some manic psychotic, you know, 309 00:17:24,020 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: moment of, I'm not, we're not, obviously he doesn't get 310 00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:31,060 Speaker 3: the insanity. No, but like, I don't, it doesn't sound 311 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:31,460 Speaker 3: like he. 312 00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:35,310 Speaker 2: Even really defended himself and You think that he was 313 00:17:35,369 --> 00:17:36,270 Speaker 2: planning on killing her? 314 00:17:36,410 --> 00:17:38,620 Speaker 1: I think so. You mean you think that he just 315 00:17:38,650 --> 00:17:40,179 Speaker 1: sort of like couldn't sleep? 316 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 3: I think that he was going to say, it talked 317 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: about how he was going to tell the kids that 318 00:17:44,900 --> 00:17:48,619 Speaker 3: mommy had an affair. Right. You know, he had people 319 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,100 Speaker 3: on his side that would corroborate it. 320 00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:51,590 Speaker 1: Right. 321 00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:55,469 Speaker 3: How, you know, he was, they were doing all this 322 00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:59,670 Speaker 3: preparation in terms of, you know, what he needed to 323 00:17:59,710 --> 00:18:00,310 Speaker 3: do first. 324 00:18:01,130 --> 00:18:04,020 Speaker 2: But if he is the kind of person who is, 325 00:18:04,170 --> 00:18:08,220 Speaker 2: I'm calling it spineless, but someone that has no ability 326 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: to be accountable for themselves, he may have gotten to 327 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:15,790 Speaker 2: a place of, okay, here's what I'm going to try 328 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:18,290 Speaker 2: to do, and then realizing it was easier for him 329 00:18:18,810 --> 00:18:22,189 Speaker 2: to shoot his wife than it was to have to 330 00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:24,310 Speaker 2: have a conversation with his children. 331 00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:25,850 Speaker 3: But do you think, that's what I mean, do you 332 00:18:25,869 --> 00:18:27,790 Speaker 3: think that he knew he was going to do it 333 00:18:28,859 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 3: All those texts back and forth the night before with her. 334 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 3: And there were so many of them that were so 335 00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:40,420 Speaker 3: involved in the details, right? The part where he said 336 00:18:40,460 --> 00:18:44,450 Speaker 3: to her something about how if it all goes as planned, 337 00:18:44,530 --> 00:18:46,790 Speaker 3: which it will, and then she freaked out. She's like, 338 00:18:46,810 --> 00:18:47,950 Speaker 3: what do you mean if it all goes? Are you 339 00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:49,010 Speaker 3: trying to back out of it? 340 00:18:49,010 --> 00:18:49,090 Speaker 1: Yeah. 341 00:18:50,109 --> 00:18:52,090 Speaker 3: But then talking about the specifics of it. 342 00:18:52,290 --> 00:18:55,230 Speaker 1: But doesn't that sound to you like premeditated, like he's 343 00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:55,619 Speaker 1: planning it? 344 00:18:55,630 --> 00:18:58,169 Speaker 3: It does. It does. But there was so much stuff about, okay, 345 00:18:58,210 --> 00:19:00,149 Speaker 3: this is who you're going to have to call afterwards. 346 00:19:00,210 --> 00:19:01,709 Speaker 3: And do you know exactly what you're going to say 347 00:19:01,730 --> 00:19:04,410 Speaker 3: to the kids? I just wonder if, it doesn't really matter. 348 00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 3: He shot his wife. He's going to rot in jail. 349 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 3: But like, did he decide in the moment or did 350 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,419 Speaker 3: he always know he was going to kill her? 351 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 2: I mean, when Aaliyah hears that Ashley is dead and 352 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,930 Speaker 2: immediately asks Caleb, were you involved? That sounds to me 353 00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:26,620 Speaker 2: like his mistress apparently immediately wondered. 354 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: Also, like, what kind of a question is that? That's 355 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: the first thing you say. 356 00:19:30,340 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 3: Well, think about it. So their, their plan, I don't 357 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 3: know if we know everything in terms of her story, 358 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: but was that he was going to tell her actually 359 00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:42,350 Speaker 3: he wanted a divorce and that was a plan and 360 00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:45,670 Speaker 3: they were going to bed and in the morning, that's 361 00:19:45,690 --> 00:19:47,590 Speaker 3: what was going to happen. And he's like, I'll get 362 00:19:47,609 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 3: a burner phone. And from, Walmart and I'll call you 363 00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:55,540 Speaker 3: right after. I mean, there was like a plan in place. 364 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:56,780 Speaker 3: They were talking about how, what are you going to 365 00:19:56,820 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 3: say to the kids exactly? Um, and then she wakes 366 00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 3: up to Ashley's dead. 367 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,619 Speaker 1: What else would be the logical thing? Oh, that God 368 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: came down. 369 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 3: No. So I'm saying, so I know her by lightning. 370 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 3: That's what she thought. That's what anybody would have thought. 371 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,740 Speaker 3: But do you think there's any chance that she did 372 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 3: have a feeling it was going to happen that she 373 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: did know? 374 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:21,420 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine what is going on in 375 00:20:21,460 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: this woman's head because she is batshit. 376 00:20:24,220 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: Nuts as far as I am concerned. And I never 377 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: like to. 378 00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: Say things like that about women because I But I 379 00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: am telling you, no matter at 24 years old, 22 380 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,340 Speaker 2: years old, yes, you are sort of a child and 381 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,700 Speaker 2: you are certainly not a grown up, but you still 382 00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:45,110 Speaker 2: have some understanding of right and wrong. And texting some 383 00:20:45,150 --> 00:20:47,390 Speaker 2: of the things that she did and saying what she said, 384 00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:56,020 Speaker 2: there's no rationale there. It sounds like she was hoping 385 00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 2: that that is what he would do. 386 00:20:57,910 --> 00:20:58,260 Speaker 3: You think so? 387 00:20:58,290 --> 00:21:00,150 Speaker 1: Just to get rid of her. I mean, she said. 388 00:21:00,030 --> 00:21:04,410 Speaker 2: Things like, you know, until she's gone, I'm gone. Now, 389 00:21:04,830 --> 00:21:08,010 Speaker 2: we can assume that that means until they're divorced. 390 00:21:08,030 --> 00:21:08,350 Speaker 3: Divorced. 391 00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:08,770 Speaker 2: Right? 392 00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:09,429 Speaker 1: Of course. 393 00:21:09,530 --> 00:21:09,750 Speaker 3: Yeah. 394 00:21:09,770 --> 00:21:12,130 Speaker 1: But, you know, this is, again, the. 395 00:21:12,090 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: Thing where these exchanges sound so arrested to me, like 396 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,340 Speaker 2: so juvenile. On both sides, on his also, you know, 397 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,550 Speaker 2: this like fantastical little weird thing obsessive love story. 398 00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:30,990 Speaker 3: And even the way, even the way Malia hated Ashley. 399 00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:32,909 Speaker 3: I hate her, Caleb. I hate her. I hate her 400 00:21:32,930 --> 00:21:33,310 Speaker 3: so much. 401 00:21:33,369 --> 00:21:34,130 Speaker 1: Very extreme. 402 00:21:34,590 --> 00:21:37,129 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. What do you, I mean, I, I get it. 403 00:21:37,170 --> 00:21:38,950 Speaker 3: She was in love with the man who was married 404 00:21:39,250 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: and the whole, the douche calling her names, talking about her, 405 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 3: I guess her decorate, like there was so much, I 406 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,140 Speaker 3: didn't see any guilt in those texts. There was just 407 00:21:51,420 --> 00:21:56,450 Speaker 3: all just, just, animosity and hatred of this woman. 408 00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:59,330 Speaker 1: Yeah again this like very simplistic. 409 00:21:59,150 --> 00:22:01,170 Speaker 3: Yeah she's like at one point she's like oh she 410 00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:03,889 Speaker 3: wins again or something's that effect because she was having 411 00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:08,530 Speaker 3: they were going on a trip for their 15th anniversary 412 00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:09,830 Speaker 3: it all i. 413 00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:13,310 Speaker 2: Mean this is a delusional person it's fair to say 414 00:22:13,369 --> 00:22:17,670 Speaker 2: that this young woman was delusional and i hope that 415 00:22:18,619 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: she is getting, I don't know that she will be 416 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,420 Speaker 2: indicted for anything or I don't know. 417 00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:25,580 Speaker 1: I don't think so. 418 00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 3: What are people saying about that? 419 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,820 Speaker 2: I hope that, cause it makes me think of, I 420 00:22:28,859 --> 00:22:33,770 Speaker 2: just covered the, um, the girl from Plainville and you know, she, 421 00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: that girl was, um, Indicted and put in jail for 422 00:22:38,380 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: sending those text messages. 423 00:22:39,619 --> 00:22:43,010 Speaker 1: Now that is more extreme. She was directly telling him 424 00:22:43,050 --> 00:22:45,310 Speaker 1: to do it. And it was for extended period, et cetera. 425 00:22:45,369 --> 00:22:47,590 Speaker 3: That was a sick story. But like, yeah, there was, 426 00:22:47,609 --> 00:22:51,230 Speaker 3: is she culpable? Just, but there was never talk, at 427 00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:54,090 Speaker 3: least in all the messages that we heard, there was never, 428 00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:57,990 Speaker 3: even though I wish I could kill her. I wish, 429 00:22:58,150 --> 00:22:59,970 Speaker 3: you know, but there was never kill her, Caleb. There 430 00:22:59,990 --> 00:23:01,740 Speaker 3: was never, you have to kill her, Caleb. 431 00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:05,900 Speaker 1: Right. She was never encouraging him to do it directly. 432 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:06,909 Speaker 3: Right. Right. 433 00:23:07,550 --> 00:23:10,290 Speaker 2: But the prosecutors say that divorce potentially cost Caleb a 434 00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:12,950 Speaker 2: lot more than just his marriage. It's time with his daughters, 435 00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:16,750 Speaker 2: his church, and his reputation, and also his job with 436 00:23:16,869 --> 00:23:17,850 Speaker 2: Ashley's family. 437 00:23:17,869 --> 00:23:18,810 Speaker 1: Right. 438 00:23:18,850 --> 00:23:23,010 Speaker 2: So he was the VP of their commercial flooring company. 439 00:23:23,390 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: So essentially, this man's entire life was wrapped up with 440 00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: Ashley and her family. 441 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:31,740 Speaker 1: Right. 442 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,830 Speaker 3: So— I know, I don't think that they even, because 443 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 3: remember when, so when it happened and Ashley's mom called 444 00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 3: the dad and the dad was away with his buddies 445 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 3: on some trip, right? He drove, I don't know, 12 446 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,379 Speaker 3: hours home and got home and said to Ashley's mother, 447 00:23:51,020 --> 00:23:54,350 Speaker 3: this is sounding very fishy. Of course, I'm just summing 448 00:23:54,369 --> 00:23:56,650 Speaker 3: it up. But like, you know, do you think that 449 00:23:56,790 --> 00:23:59,129 Speaker 3: Caleb could have been involved? And the mother's like, don't 450 00:23:59,290 --> 00:24:03,750 Speaker 3: you dare. Don't you even. So- And he said, I 451 00:24:03,790 --> 00:24:07,990 Speaker 3: never said another thing about it after that. They clearly 452 00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: had a good relationship with their son-in-law, or at least 453 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:16,619 Speaker 3: good enough that the mother would become so adamant that, 454 00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 3: you know, we're not even going there. 455 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: But when someone says, do you think he had anything 456 00:24:22,140 --> 00:24:25,100 Speaker 2: to do with it? You know, like I think about this, like, okay, 457 00:24:25,619 --> 00:24:30,419 Speaker 2: God forbid something happens. should happen to me or my husband. 458 00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 2: And if somebody said to Charlie, if I ever passed 459 00:24:35,220 --> 00:24:37,869 Speaker 2: away under strange circumstances, if anybody said. 460 00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:40,290 Speaker 1: Do you think Charlie has something to. 461 00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:40,669 Speaker 3: Do with it? 462 00:24:41,390 --> 00:24:44,810 Speaker 2: It's like never in a million years, we do not 463 00:24:44,850 --> 00:24:47,530 Speaker 2: have a perfect marriage, but never in a million years 464 00:24:48,030 --> 00:24:51,090 Speaker 2: is anyone going to think that he would have anything 465 00:24:51,109 --> 00:24:52,370 Speaker 2: to do with my death. 466 00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:52,550 Speaker 1: Yeah. 467 00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:54,630 Speaker 3: But that's, but that's exactly what, that's what I'm saying 468 00:24:54,670 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 3: is that that's why the mother, So Ashley's mother is like, 469 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: in a million years, she wouldn't have thought that Caleb 470 00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:05,140 Speaker 3: would have done it. Nobody knew about Aaliyah. Nobody knew 471 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,350 Speaker 3: what he was about to do the next day that 472 00:25:07,369 --> 00:25:10,130 Speaker 3: he was going to, you know, according to Aaliyah, ask 473 00:25:10,170 --> 00:25:13,210 Speaker 3: for a divorce. I don't think any of them saw 474 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:16,990 Speaker 3: it coming. And maybe that's why he thought he could 475 00:25:17,010 --> 00:25:17,590 Speaker 3: get away with it. 476 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,490 Speaker 2: Aaliyah initially lied to the FBI about the affair and 477 00:25:34,609 --> 00:25:37,649 Speaker 2: weeks before the murder, her phone falls into the ocean 478 00:25:37,730 --> 00:25:41,070 Speaker 2: while she's kayaking and her work laptop was lost on 479 00:25:41,109 --> 00:25:41,710 Speaker 2: a plane. 480 00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:45,010 Speaker 1: I mean, did that affect her credibility? 481 00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:45,870 Speaker 3: Does it matter? 482 00:25:45,890 --> 00:25:48,710 Speaker 2: To me, that sounds really questionable. 483 00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:51,709 Speaker 3: Right. So let me ask you this. I have been wondering. 484 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: So even if you erase your messages, and they were 485 00:25:55,540 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 3: on some app I had never heard of. It wasn't WhatsApp. 486 00:25:58,220 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 3: But anyway, they were on some, I guess, encrypted app. 487 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 3: and they were both erasing everything. So here they all were. 488 00:26:05,740 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: Did someone not erase all the texts? 489 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,420 Speaker 2: I think you can never assume that anything is deleted 490 00:26:11,859 --> 00:26:13,530 Speaker 2: when we are talking about technology. 491 00:26:13,550 --> 00:26:14,550 Speaker 1: I just think that you can't. 492 00:26:14,570 --> 00:26:15,530 Speaker 3: It's all somewhere in a cloud. 493 00:26:15,550 --> 00:26:19,930 Speaker 1: It's all somewhere, and it is all discoverable. And I mean, 494 00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:25,410 Speaker 1: more than 100,000 messages, that number itself... You know what? 495 00:26:25,530 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 3: It's what you said earlier is really... I feel like 496 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,830 Speaker 3: that is something that children do. That is something that 497 00:26:32,970 --> 00:26:37,350 Speaker 3: teenagers do, right? That kind of obsession is not, it's 498 00:26:37,450 --> 00:26:41,389 Speaker 3: the kind of obsession where, I don't know, you're 14 499 00:26:41,390 --> 00:26:43,300 Speaker 3: and you're in love and all you do from the 500 00:26:44,020 --> 00:26:45,619 Speaker 3: minute your eyes open until they close. 501 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:51,300 Speaker 1: When your brain, we might add, is not fully formed, right? 502 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:52,699 Speaker 1: As a teenager. 503 00:26:53,380 --> 00:26:58,610 Speaker 3: Right, but she's, so women's brains are, The synapses close at, 504 00:26:59,630 --> 00:27:04,230 Speaker 3: I want to say, men, it's 26, where the lobes close. 505 00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:06,630 Speaker 3: Please forgive me, anybody who's listening who has- Women, it's 506 00:27:06,650 --> 00:27:09,100 Speaker 3: a little bit younger, right? It's younger, right. 507 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,619 Speaker 1: So she was there or close. 508 00:27:11,660 --> 00:27:16,380 Speaker 3: The brain being fully developed. Yeah. I know it's younger 509 00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 3: than men. I know men, it's 26. But that's what 510 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,930 Speaker 3: she sounds like. She sounds like, in those texts, like 511 00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:26,150 Speaker 3: a crazed teenager. But she's not a teenager. And some 512 00:27:26,170 --> 00:27:28,090 Speaker 3: of the things that she said, I don't even think 513 00:27:28,170 --> 00:27:29,730 Speaker 3: my kids as teenagers. 514 00:27:30,450 --> 00:27:31,310 Speaker 1: On their worst day. 515 00:27:31,890 --> 00:27:35,070 Speaker 3: On their worst day, whatever you say, it's me or 516 00:27:35,090 --> 00:27:35,590 Speaker 3: your kids. 517 00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:38,310 Speaker 1: No. Do you think that we've just, this is me again, 518 00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:40,850 Speaker 1: getting back to the kind of general demise of our 519 00:27:40,890 --> 00:27:47,139 Speaker 1: entire culture. Right. Is it just that we've lost a 520 00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:52,940 Speaker 1: sense of anything that, of anything having real meaning and 521 00:27:53,140 --> 00:27:57,350 Speaker 1: kind of human nature? decency and kind of like, I'm 522 00:27:57,369 --> 00:28:02,179 Speaker 1: just so perplexed by this kind of the ability for 523 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: someone like this to at once be active in their 524 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: church and for all intents and purposes, very religious and 525 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: God fearing to be able to send these kinds of 526 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: text messages, also be having an affair, both sides, him 527 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: and her, and then be able to still like, I 528 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,250 Speaker 1: just don't, I can't fathom it. Like, I think there's 529 00:28:26,290 --> 00:28:27,170 Speaker 1: a real problem. 530 00:28:27,790 --> 00:28:30,270 Speaker 3: Well, we've been doing this podcast for a minute now, 531 00:28:30,570 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: and you and I have talked about crimes, unthinkable crimes, 532 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:41,330 Speaker 3: and men and women who are, for all intents and purposes, monsters. 533 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,130 Speaker 3: And with all the podcasts that we've done now, I 534 00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:45,990 Speaker 3: don't have it figured out. I don't know. Is it 535 00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:50,250 Speaker 3: getting worse? Is it getting better? Is it I have 536 00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:54,690 Speaker 3: no answers for those questions. I just know it's just depressing, right? 537 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:59,490 Speaker 3: I mean, we are true crime junkies, but still it's 538 00:29:00,630 --> 00:29:06,660 Speaker 3: sad and depressing. And this one, I just... This woman was... 539 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 3: And then he tried to... The whole thing about her 540 00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: having an affair, what was that about? 541 00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: About Ashley having an affair? 542 00:29:12,820 --> 00:29:17,260 Speaker 3: Yes. Did he make that up? Was that like his 543 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:18,190 Speaker 3: way of. 544 00:29:18,860 --> 00:29:20,420 Speaker 1: Of excusing his own behavior? 545 00:29:20,620 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. I think it was bullshit. 546 00:29:24,380 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: I want to know, I want to know what happens 547 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,260 Speaker 1: to Aaliyah. 548 00:29:27,940 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: I want to, I wish I had a camera on 549 00:29:31,660 --> 00:29:36,090 Speaker 2: that woman's every day, every moment movement. 550 00:29:36,850 --> 00:29:38,530 Speaker 3: I wonder if our list. Yeah, me too. I wonder 551 00:29:38,570 --> 00:29:41,790 Speaker 3: if our listeners though. it's funny because I think even 552 00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 3: though you know what she's done is unforgivable, so do I, 553 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,820 Speaker 3: but you give her probably more grace than I have. 554 00:29:47,930 --> 00:29:50,340 Speaker 3: Maybe that will come in time. Maybe it will occur 555 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,180 Speaker 3: to me more and more that she was very, very 556 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 3: young and that maybe she was groomed. Right now, I 557 00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: don't feel any of those things for her. But I 558 00:29:57,860 --> 00:30:01,700 Speaker 3: wonder how like I know that I've seen things online 559 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: about people even suspecting that she was the one that 560 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 3: did it. Right. And there certainly has not been that 561 00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: what I've seen, there has not been a lot of 562 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,630 Speaker 3: sympathy for her, but as a young woman, maybe I'm 563 00:30:13,650 --> 00:30:15,670 Speaker 3: not reading all the right stuff. You tell me, maybe 564 00:30:15,710 --> 00:30:19,450 Speaker 3: there is a lot of, of, of people who are sympathetic. 565 00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:19,930 Speaker 1: I don't know. 566 00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:22,650 Speaker 2: I'll be curious to hear what people have to say 567 00:30:22,810 --> 00:30:25,430 Speaker 2: about that. I think that, you know, a lot of 568 00:30:25,450 --> 00:30:29,430 Speaker 2: people are very suspicious of her. And that's where I 569 00:30:29,550 --> 00:30:33,470 Speaker 2: always take the opposite side on that because I think 570 00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:38,550 Speaker 2: that women get the crappy end of things all the time. 571 00:30:38,890 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: And so I'm always willing to give women more grace 572 00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:48,140 Speaker 2: on this side. But she is not without fault and 573 00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:51,460 Speaker 2: flaws here by any stretch of the imagination. 574 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: And so I. 575 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,820 Speaker 2: Hope that she uses this, has taken this really to 576 00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: heart and- I don't know what she's planning to do 577 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:00,820 Speaker 2: with her life. 578 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,500 Speaker 3: Where are her parents in all this? Were they there? 579 00:31:03,660 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: Great question. 580 00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:05,810 Speaker 3: Where? 581 00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:10,410 Speaker 1: That's a great question. And does she have any history 582 00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:13,090 Speaker 1: of mental illness? Because this is some. 583 00:31:13,270 --> 00:31:14,230 Speaker 3: We never got any of that. 584 00:31:14,650 --> 00:31:15,220 Speaker 1: Wacko. 585 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,660 Speaker 3: Unlike some of the others. Yeah. Unlike some of these 586 00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:18,940 Speaker 3: other trials, this one went quick. 587 00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:20,390 Speaker 1: It was so fast. 588 00:31:20,410 --> 00:31:23,370 Speaker 3: I mean, this happened in February of 26, right? 589 00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:25,970 Speaker 2: So this is a very quick time. I mean, they, 590 00:31:26,030 --> 00:31:28,050 Speaker 2: did they speed this up or what? Cause this is 591 00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:29,450 Speaker 2: very fast. 592 00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:30,100 Speaker 1: For it to happen. 593 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: It felt like it was open and shut. 594 00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: And one last thing that I have to bring up that, 595 00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:42,290 Speaker 2: that AI love songs. I just not to make light 596 00:31:42,390 --> 00:31:45,090 Speaker 2: of any of this because none of it was taken lightly, 597 00:31:45,390 --> 00:31:49,770 Speaker 2: but if ever there was an argument, against AI, it 598 00:31:49,910 --> 00:31:50,690 Speaker 2: is these songs. 599 00:31:51,850 --> 00:31:54,030 Speaker 1: They are so awful. 600 00:31:54,410 --> 00:31:56,310 Speaker 3: So I'm going to tell you something. I found it 601 00:31:57,430 --> 00:32:00,770 Speaker 3: like all little hairs all over my body rose. It 602 00:32:00,790 --> 00:32:03,390 Speaker 3: was so icky and gross. But if I'm being honest, 603 00:32:03,410 --> 00:32:04,980 Speaker 3: I don't think the songs were that bad. It was 604 00:32:05,020 --> 00:32:07,380 Speaker 3: just the fact that they did that. I don't know. 605 00:32:07,420 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 3: They were stupid. There are so many dumb pop. 606 00:32:09,340 --> 00:32:10,110 Speaker 1: Love songs right now. 607 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 3: They're so dumb. 608 00:32:11,060 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: And the fact that he, as a supposed singer at 609 00:32:15,460 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: one time, shame on you for that too. 610 00:32:18,790 --> 00:32:19,980 Speaker 3: It was the fact that he did it. 611 00:32:20,150 --> 00:32:23,709 Speaker 2: And that they made them listen to it in the courtroom. 612 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:24,020 Speaker 1: Yes. 613 00:32:24,060 --> 00:32:27,900 Speaker 2: The pain on people's faces of watching that and the 614 00:32:28,140 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 2: utter sort of disbelief and confusion. 615 00:32:30,980 --> 00:32:32,260 Speaker 3: The disgust. 616 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,100 Speaker 1: And disgust. 617 00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:38,340 Speaker 2: Well, I personally am glad that this did not go 618 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,180 Speaker 2: on and on and on and on because he just 619 00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:46,390 Speaker 2: needs to be put away. And the sentencing, I believe 620 00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:47,590 Speaker 2: they said it will be October 5th. 621 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,020 Speaker 1: The judge wanted this to be sped up, but to 622 00:32:53,060 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: give the prosecution enough time to have the impact letters 623 00:32:58,090 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: from the victims. 624 00:32:59,310 --> 00:33:00,460 Speaker 3: Is it a death penalty case? 625 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,810 Speaker 2: So the prosecutors didn't seek the death penalty, but I 626 00:33:05,050 --> 00:33:08,530 Speaker 2: am also reading that capital punishment, although it's legal in Ohio, 627 00:33:08,590 --> 00:33:12,010 Speaker 2: the state has an indefinite pause on all executions. So 628 00:33:12,050 --> 00:33:15,130 Speaker 2: maybe that's why they didn't put it on the table. 629 00:33:15,690 --> 00:33:17,690 Speaker 2: But he is certainly up for life imprisonment. 630 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,650 Speaker 3: If I'm a guessing girl, he's going away and he 631 00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:25,270 Speaker 3: ain't getting out. So poor Ashley and those poor babies. 632 00:33:25,570 --> 00:33:30,150 Speaker 2: Those, those children bless those kids and those parents. 633 00:33:30,670 --> 00:33:31,250 Speaker 1: It's really. 634 00:33:31,270 --> 00:33:33,290 Speaker 3: I hope that they get some closure from it. 635 00:33:34,290 --> 00:33:34,570 Speaker 1: Yeah. 636 00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 3: No, they won't closure. No, I don't think they will. 637 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 3: Some kind of some, I don't know, at least some 638 00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 3: kind of ending to the story maybe. 639 00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: Hmm. 640 00:33:44,980 --> 00:33:47,100 Speaker 3: All right, well, I actually am happy that this one 641 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,100 Speaker 3: wrapped up the way it did. It's just so awful. 642 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so quickly like that. 643 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,270 Speaker 2: I think there's certainly no, and they pulled the jury 644 00:33:56,010 --> 00:33:59,250 Speaker 2: after the verdict was read to make sure that everyone 645 00:33:59,370 --> 00:34:01,950 Speaker 2: did in fact say guilty, and that was their vote, 646 00:34:02,190 --> 00:34:06,130 Speaker 2: and they all said yes. So very quickly, they seem 647 00:34:06,190 --> 00:34:07,410 Speaker 2: to have no doubt. 648 00:34:08,370 --> 00:34:11,210 Speaker 3: That's how I would have voted. Me too. Yeah. 649 00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:14,270 Speaker 1: Thanks for chatting, Jen. I always really enjoy these. 650 00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:20,169 Speaker 3: Conversations, hard conversations, but yeah. Thanks you guys. 651 00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:20,830 Speaker 1: Okay. 652 00:34:21,390 --> 00:34:22,410 Speaker 3: Bye. Bye.