1 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Welcome back, everybody to another week of Wide Open with 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: Ashland Harris our guest today. Oh, I'm so, so so excited, 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: the one and only Krista Tippett. I could introduce you 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: as a million different things, but you're really the group 5 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: guru of what. 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: I'm doing right now. 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: I'm learning so much through the lens of your work. 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: You're a master at conversation. 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 2: Your ability to show up and. 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: Be so insightful and so thoughtful and so just sitting 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: at the intersection of the human condition has been really 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: beautiful to witness and to see. 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: From afar and to be able to sit now and 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: meet you. 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: That's so lovely to have you on the show. 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 2: Thank you, welcome so much you. 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: You now are podcasting on being, which everyone clearly already knows. 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: You have interviewed some of the most incredible people to 19 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: ever walk this planet, so I can't wait to unpack 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: that and how that inspires you, how that makes you 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: move internally to grow and be better every single day 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: based on the teachings of so many incredible people. And 23 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: you're a New York Times bestseller. I mean, you really 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: have done it all, and it's such an honor to 25 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: have you on this show, so thank you for being here. 26 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 3: I yeah, I'm happy to be here. As we were 27 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: just talking about how a conversation is an adventure and 28 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 3: I've loved Yeah, I've loved doing my show all these years, 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 3: and you're new in this sphere, and I, yeah, I 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 3: think what I've I also, now this point, really loved 31 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 3: me on both sides of the conversation. I just trust 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: it as a human experience. 33 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: I was just going to ask you that, how does 34 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: it feel now being on this side people saying, hey, you. 35 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: Know what we want you on our show. I want 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: to ask you the question. 37 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: Well, you know, actually, I think your job is harder, right, 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 3: In some ways it's relaxing because I think when you're 39 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 3: you know, when you're when you're hosting, which really is 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 3: an act of hospitality. You know, you're the one who 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 3: had to prepare, you're the one who has notes. I 42 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 3: just get to sit back and be surprised by what 43 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 3: comes to me and then just kind of see what surfaces. 44 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 3: And I do feel at this point like and maybe 45 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 3: you'll feel this way too at some point, I feel 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 3: like I've never been doing this for over twenty years, 47 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: but I feel like all the conversations that I've had 48 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 3: are kind of in conversation with each other inside my head. 49 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: So when I get asked a question, it's kind of like, 50 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 3: you know, a lot surfaces that is me, that is 51 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 3: wisdom I have from others, and that's kind of interesting 52 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: for me almost to observe. Yeah, I think you. 53 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: Have an incredible gift. I think you have an incredible 54 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 1: gift to see people and meet them where they're at. 55 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: I think not all people understand that. And the ability 56 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: to listen with no judgment is very powerful and very 57 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: rare these days, and I think more than ever we 58 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: need that, and I think it's so powerful and beautiful 59 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: we're able to do that through our work. And I 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: have to say that in a time that feels so 61 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: divided and so fragmented, and so difficult and so siloed, 62 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: it's so beautiful that you chose to come in here 63 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: and to have a conversation like this. As someone who 64 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: looks up to you, and I hope one day to 65 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: be in your shoes. I'm grateful to share oxygen with you. 66 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: Thank you. 67 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to. 68 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: Start weirdly kind of where you start the beginning, you know, 69 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: the beginning of being raised in Oklahoma and. 70 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: Centered around. 71 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: Faith and religion and how that shaped you into making 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: a lot of life decisions. And I'm curious who you 73 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: were as a little girl and how you showed up 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: in the spaces you did and what made you curious, 75 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: what made you excited about life? 76 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 3: Such a great way to ask the question, you know, 77 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 3: one of I'm in my sixties now I love I 78 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 3: want to say, I love aging like I love this decade. 79 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: Say that again you need more women than. 80 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 3: No, I mean life against the sixties. Oh, don't tell 81 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: me that though. Just again, No, it's good. It just 82 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 3: goes there so madly in love. I'm just so happy, 83 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 3: having so much fun. So and I say that because 84 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 3: one of the interesting things for me about I don't 85 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 3: want to say, just living in my body alone, living 86 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: in the world a long time, which is another way 87 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 3: to say aging, is that I have gotten to know 88 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 3: that little girl me and I've had to I've kind 89 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 3: of learned to love her. And you know, I was 90 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: very hard on myself most of my life, which I 91 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 3: think we kind of get trained to be in this culture, 92 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,119 Speaker 3: really judgmental. And I realized at some point in recent 93 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 3: years that I mean you know, my little girl self 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 3: was in a very imperfect world, as we all are, 95 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: but really dealing with a lot. I was living in 96 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: a place, in a family where there wasn't a lot 97 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 3: of curiosity, and where the most important things that were 98 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 3: going on that of course I knew about, because children 99 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 3: know all the things the adults are trying to hide 100 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: from them, we were not talking about. And so I think, 101 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 3: you know, sometimes people say to me, oh, you must 102 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 3: have grown up in a family of great listeners, But 103 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 3: you know, we get shaped in a few different ways. 104 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: And you can get things because people taught them to 105 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 3: you or modeled them for you can also get them 106 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: because you longed for them because they were not there. 107 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,559 Speaker 3: And so I when I look back at my young self, yeah, 108 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: I think she was. She just had was really asking 109 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 3: a lot of big questions, and the questions the adults 110 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 3: around her were not interested in. The only real books 111 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 3: we read in my house were the Bible. I mean, 112 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 3: the Bible was there, but there's a lot in the Bible. 113 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: There's a lot in the Bible that nobody was talking 114 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: about also, and so I just think I found, you know, 115 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: I found a lot of fuel for my imagination in 116 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: what was given to me. I didn't. I think a 117 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: lot also now about how living growing up in a 118 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: small town. You know, at that time, before the Internet, 119 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 3: you just didn't have a sense of the world out there. 120 00:06:58,880 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: You know. 121 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 3: I didn't have a family that travel There hadn't really 122 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 3: been any place for Texas, and I didn't really think 123 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 3: that was the bound those are the boundaries of the 124 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: known world. So I was really seventeen eighteen before I 125 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 3: started thinking about leaving. But when I when I left, 126 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 3: I mean I was really leaping into a void. I'd 127 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: seen Woody Allen's movie in Manhattan, you know, that's like 128 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: that was the image I had of this city I 129 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 3: now live in. Wow. So yeah, I think I had 130 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: a lot of I think she was brave my younger self, 131 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: and I'm only in and later life giving her credit 132 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: for that. I don't know how weird that sounds, because 133 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 3: I didn't used to talk this way. That's about my 134 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 3: younger self, and you should. It's a new thing, because like. 135 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: I am on the other side of the spectrum where 136 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: I was that little girl who said I was going 137 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: to be that professional athlete. I was going to be 138 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: under those lights, and I dreamed about it. 139 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: I am imagined it. 140 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you want a Peabody, you have the Humanitarian 141 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: Award from President Obama. 142 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: Did you ever think. 143 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: You were capable of such greatness as a young little girl? 144 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: Did you think and dream about those moments? No? 145 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: I didn't, I really didn't. I didn't. I didn't have 146 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: a sense of what was possible. But I was pretty 147 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: fearless once I started going. I mean, the truth is, 148 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: and I think this is also true for a lot 149 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: of people. I still think I'm this kid from Oklahoma, 150 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: you know. I mean, those credentials somehow belonged to me, 151 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: and somehow I marvel at them too, and don't know 152 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 3: how to claim them. 153 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: It's so beautiful to I'm sure sit in the comfort 154 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: of your own skin right now. 155 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: Because your journey was not linear, like it wasn't. 156 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: You came from, you know, a very religious background, while 157 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: when you were being you know, raised as a young girl, 158 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: and you just you you went after this journalism route 159 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: and diplomacy and decide, you know, you want. 160 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: To go to. 161 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: The cold world or in Berlin, and then all of 162 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: a sudden you're like, oh wait, but theology and I 163 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: want to go to all these incredible universities like walk 164 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: me through it. 165 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there was an element for me of of 166 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 3: having a father I needed to impress. And you know, 167 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 3: one of the wisest people I've known in my life 168 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: who recently passed, he was ninety five. He would talk 169 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: about the things that have happened to us as they're 170 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: the negative negatives and the positive negati. Now you have 171 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: to kind of have solid ground beneath your feet to 172 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 3: say that thing that was so hard and hurtful actually 173 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: shaped me in quite a beautiful way, right only because 174 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 3: also at some point I knew to get distance from 175 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 3: it and as you say, become at home and myself 176 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 3: and distinguish between what I did because I was trying 177 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 3: to fulfill somebody else's bottomless you know, need, or doing 178 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: things because they gave me life. So yeah, I think 179 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: a lot of the things I did in my twenties 180 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 3: in a way I was trying to prove something, but 181 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: not to the world. And it wasn't really about what 182 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 3: I thought I could accomplish so much as justifying my existence. 183 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 3: But I walked into so many you know, incredible walk 184 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 3: through so many incredible doors, and learned so much that 185 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: has me ever since Wow. 186 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really really special. And you talk so much 187 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: about purpose. How did you find your meaning and choosing 188 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: to do this type of work because you're really serving 189 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: the masses. So I'm curious what you felt in that time, 190 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: because you know, your purpose changes through the different seasons 191 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: of your life and your growth and where you're at. 192 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: And did you think of that at a time when 193 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: you were deciding what you wanted to do, you know, 194 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: because so much of your work on being is really 195 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: this beautiful intersection of the human condition, spirituality, ethics, Like, 196 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: did you feel that that at the time was like this, 197 00:11:54,520 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: this really big purpose for you to fulfill, to connect people, so. 198 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 3: In a in a not in a linear way, but 199 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: in a roundabout way. Over a few years, the experience 200 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 3: I had in Berlin, you know, led very jagged line 201 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: to doing that I really had, I really believed, and 202 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 3: I think this made me a good citizen of the 203 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 3: late twentieth century, mid twentieth century. That politics was where 204 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 3: it was at. Yah, right, this is where the power is, 205 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: This is where the big hard questions are being asked, 206 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 3: This is where the solutions are being worked out. And 207 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: also like this is this is where if you can engage, 208 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 3: you will be helping save the world, right, And I think, 209 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: you know, in some ways, you know, weird circumstances led 210 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 3: me to have this opportunity to go to divided Germany. 211 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: But all of what I just said was playing itself 212 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: out on this very you know, technicolor screen. It was 213 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 3: a fault line of the world. But in Berlin. So 214 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 3: in Berlin I got up close to real political power. 215 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 3: My last couple of years there, I was the chief 216 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: age of our ambassador to West Germany, who was a 217 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: nuclear arms expert, and those nuclear missiles which were all 218 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 3: over Europe really were the existential threat of the time. 219 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 3: And it's hard to think your way into this now, 220 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 3: but we all lived knowing in some part of our 221 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 3: brains that you know, they could go off one morning. Yeah. 222 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: But I was also having the experience in Berlin, which 223 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: was divided into two and you had communism on one 224 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: side and capitalism on the other, and people who were 225 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: free on one side, and people were not free on 226 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: the other, and people who had just basic choice about 227 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 3: you know, not just what you had study in college 228 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 3: or where you would live, but what color you would 229 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 3: paint your room. And I saw how soul stealing, like 230 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: how much we need choice. It was more that the 231 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 3: possibility of possibility that was taken away from people, that 232 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: very thing that I somehow knew to sees. And I 233 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: got fascinated in Berlin because that division was you know, 234 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 3: was really was really along the lines of the geopolitical 235 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 3: division of the world. But I got fascinated by this 236 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 3: human superpower of crafting a life. And I saw that 237 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: on the Western side, where we you know, quote unquote 238 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: had everything and were so free and had so much choice, 239 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 3: it was possible to have a very superficial empty life. 240 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: And I saw on the Eastern side, where people had 241 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: raw materials to work with that were you know, sparse, 242 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 3: they still could create this incredible intimacy and dignity and beauty. 243 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: And I got fascinated with that. And I got discouraged 244 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 3: and kind of very existentially confused that the guys, and 245 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 3: it mostly was guys who were moving the missiles around, 246 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 3: we're not just we're not just not addressing that how 247 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 3: we make a life. They were totally disinterested in it. 248 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: And so, you know, and again in this jagged line, 249 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: it led me to go to seminary to think about 250 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 3: theology has a place where we not only think about God, 251 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 3: but about what it means to be human. I think 252 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 3: when I started the show, which was really about ten 253 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: years later, I was sorry to fgar out what to 254 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 3: do with all of that. But one of my motivations 255 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: was that you shouldn't have to go away for three 256 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 3: years as I did, and go into a lot of 257 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 3: debt as I did, to get exposed to this really 258 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 3: thrilling investigation and to get exposed to theology and to 259 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 3: be pondering the big questions. And you shouldn't have to 260 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: have a certain kind of education or even a certain 261 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 3: kind of religious education. And I just and I also 262 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: really felt like there were so many things. I'm just 263 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: saying this for the first time in this way, but 264 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: just as in my family, there's so many big things 265 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 3: that we should be talking about and we should we 266 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 3: should be finding words for even though even though words 267 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: are you really have to reach for words around a 268 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: lot of this. And so, you know, then this little 269 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 3: you know hour on public radio week which is what 270 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: it was at first, was my offering. 271 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: I love that. 272 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: And I ask you this because because you live such 273 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: a purposeful life and you ask such beautiful, intentional questions 274 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: do you think purpose is found or do you think 275 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: it's created? 276 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: I think it's both. But you know that's just there's 277 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 3: such a there's a whole lineage of that question. Right, 278 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 3: it's light, a particle, or a wave. It depends on 279 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 3: what question you ask. Yeah, I you know, I like 280 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 3: something you said a minute ago about I don't think 281 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: you use the word vocation, but you're saying we all 282 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 3: across our lifespan like there are different ways that we're 283 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: finding purpose, right, So, I think the one thing that 284 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 3: was wrong with this twentieth century that we came out 285 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 3: of is that it really collapsed the idea of purpose 286 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 3: and vocation like vocation which isn't which is really the 287 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 3: word we've used in America for what your purpose is, 288 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 3: and it's really about what you do for a living. Yes, 289 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: it's how you succeed. It's what you get paid for, 290 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: and that is really impoverishing. And you know you have 291 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: small children. I mean at a time in your life 292 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: you also have there are other things about you. But 293 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: I think like we all go through stages where you know, 294 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: when you are a parent of young children, that is 295 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 3: your primary vocation and everything else has to orbit around that. 296 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 3: I and I also I just think we what we're 297 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 3: called to because vocation, that word vocation comes from the 298 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 3: from the word you know for calling to call forth, 299 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 3: and that's important language to me. Now in this world 300 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 3: we live in, I think we're called that's that's a 301 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 3: question we need to be asking, and it's a it's 302 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 3: a way to turn the question of what do I 303 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 3: how can I possibly stand before all this crisis and rupture? 304 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 3: What are we being called to do? So I guess 305 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 3: this is a long winded way to say, I think 306 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 3: we all there's there's we all have so much agency 307 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 3: and so much possibility, and there's so many ways. Also 308 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 3: we know that that gets stolen from people. And yet 309 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 3: a very miraculous thing about the thing about human beings 310 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: is that we often you know, are made by what 311 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 3: would break us. And so I think purpose is always 312 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: a possibility and it can take so many forms. I 313 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 3: guess something that to me is a mystery that I 314 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 3: will not know the answer to in this lifetime is 315 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 3: you know, are there? I wonder how much positive, how 316 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: much what the range of possibility is? You know there 317 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 3: are other there? At least this point in my life, 318 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: when I've lived over six decades. You know, I wonder 319 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 3: if I had walked down that road, maybe that would 320 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 3: have been just as purposeful a life, but it would 321 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 3: have been very different, you know. Or is there something 322 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 3: you know? Do we are there are their best ways 323 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 3: forward and we find them, or we we orient towards 324 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: them or not. I don't know, but I'm fascinated. Any 325 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 3: Dillert the writer said something that has always stuck with me. 326 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 3: That she said, we are made and set here something 327 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: like to be astonished. And I feel like we all 328 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 3: get astonished at different things, yes, right, and so and 329 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 3: that is a that is a joyful purposefulness when we 330 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 3: follow our astonishment. Yeah, and so I think that can 331 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 3: go in so many directions, and some of them that 332 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 3: will in fact be our purpose. We will not get 333 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: paid for, right, but they will make life worth living. Yes, 334 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 3: and so I think that's the trap. And I get nervous, 335 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: and I think in this world that we're heading into 336 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 3: even more so about you know that everybody needs to 337 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: find meaningful work, which means that the work itself is 338 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 3: what's going to give your life meaning For some of 339 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 3: some of us are really fortunate to have work that 340 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 3: in and of itself, it's very nature gives us meaning, 341 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 3: but that's a trap. Yeah, if you know, putting working 342 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: to earn money to put food on table for your children, 343 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 3: that's purposeful too. So I'm kind of it's so true. 344 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: I had I really invest in growth. And it's interesting 345 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: because a lot of your work in terms of becoming 346 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: versus being is a really interesting intersection for me. And 347 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm in a new season of my life as I've 348 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: newly retired from professional sports, two very young kids, and recently, 349 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, went through a hard divorce and finding new 350 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: meaning and joy in my life. And I'm going through 351 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: through a lot of coaching and a lot of therapy 352 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: and a lot of growing. And it's such a beautiful 353 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: season to be in. And I don't look at it 354 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: as a scary thing. I think life is moving so 355 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: fast and we have to continue to evolve. And I 356 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: constantly want to hold myself accountable in terms of self 357 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: awareness of how I show up and how I serve. 358 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: And I had a coaching session yesterday and my coach 359 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: asked me what anchors me? Because so often we float away, 360 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: and if we get too close to the sun, we 361 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: start to burn, or if we get too far away 362 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: from the buoy. We don't have anything in sight that 363 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: grounds us, and the tide is always rising, right, it's 364 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: always changing. And it was really interesting that my anchor 365 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: is really what grounds me the most when I'm at 366 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: my most happiness, happiest d eight is when I'm with 367 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: my partner and I'm with my children. Those are my anchors. 368 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: Home to me is not a place. It is the 369 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: people in which I find most at ease and peace with, 370 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: and it is them. 371 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: They are my why. But for me to do all 372 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: the other things, I have to provide. 373 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:27,239 Speaker 1: So it's this really interesting complex of finding purpose and 374 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: meaning outside of my anchors. But also that's okay. I 375 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: do find that my work is very meaningful. Human connection 376 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: to me is very meaningful. But you're right, not all 377 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: the time. 378 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: Does it pay the bills? 379 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thinking as you're talking about, you know, the roomy, 380 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 3: the mystic Muslim mystic and poet, he created the whirling 381 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: dervishes And the point of that was, you know, spiritual 382 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 3: practice that helps us stay still inside while whirling. And 383 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 3: I was just thinking about that this week because I 384 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 3: think that is actually one of the things we are 385 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 3: all called to right now in this moment of time 386 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: where the world is one big field and it is 387 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 3: so what you're talking about, yeah, is getting grounded ground 388 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 3: that's still point and there may be a lot you 389 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 3: maybe have a lot of plates up in the air 390 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 3: around that, right, But that and yeah, and you know, 391 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: maybe that's a good way to think about what does 392 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: it mean to find purpose in life? It's not necessarily 393 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 3: that this thing or that thing is giving you purpose. 394 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 3: But are you staying still while whirling and able to 395 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 3: take joy? 396 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris. 397 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 398 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: I'm curious of what your relationship is now in this 399 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: season of life. What is your relationship to religion? 400 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 3: To religion? Well, it's complicated. I feel that there have 401 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 3: been so many chapters. 402 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: That's why I say in this chapter because I absolutely 403 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: do have different chapters. 404 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: I there's such a false and misleading you know, cultural 405 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 3: fight that isn't really representative of science or religion. That 406 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 3: you know that religion is somehow opposed to evolution. But 407 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: I like to think faith is the most evolutionary thing 408 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 3: of all. Right, Like if you are breathing, even if 409 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 3: your whole life long, you know, you could say from 410 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 3: year one to year ninety. I believe in God. If 411 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 3: you are having a life, what that sentence means, what 412 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: it's filled with is going to be so radically dynamic. 413 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 3: And so I don't know in terms of that one sentence, 414 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 3: you know, I just think for me, the word God 415 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 3: is just so small. I grew up with a religiosity 416 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: that had so much fear in it, like the world 417 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 3: was such a dangerous place. The body was an entry 418 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 3: point to danger. Everything was a slippery slope to sex. 419 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 3: And one of the things I realize, you know, looking back, 420 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 3: is how little, how little a sense of mystery and 421 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 3: a reverence for mystery there was, you know, because if 422 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: it's all fear and it's all rules, and it wasn't 423 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 3: all it wasn't only that. My grandfather especially was you know, 424 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 3: the most He preached hell, fire and brimstone, and he 425 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 3: was the most loving, funny person I knew. And I 426 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: actually think that that experience of that complex city was 427 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 3: really a great thing to take in. So yeah, I 428 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 3: think now for me, as I've grown older and through 429 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 3: my conversations and a lot through my conversations with physicists, 430 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 3: right with scientists who you know, paradoxically have a great 431 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 3: not just a comfort with mystery, but a delight in it. 432 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: They're always looking for, you know, living. One time early 433 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 3: on this interview really imprinted me. I was really early 434 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: with this geneticist who was also an Anglican priest, and 435 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: he said to me that the spirituality of the scientist 436 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 3: is like the spirituality of a mystic. That they are, 437 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 3: that the mystic and the scientists are both. They both 438 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 3: accept and are thrilled by the knowledge that there are 439 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 3: things we will never understand in this lifetime. And they're 440 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 3: always moving into that mystery deeper and deeper, and they 441 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 3: don't expect to tie it up, because then the fun 442 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: would be gone. And yet they are all looking for 443 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 3: They're both looking for truth. And I do think, you know, 444 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 3: we're you know, we're we are called all of us 445 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 3: to kind of discern truth as best we can, but 446 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 3: then also to keep living and letting our questions come 447 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 3: into those answers we have. And so I think for 448 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 3: me now it's you know, I was raised Southern Baptist. 449 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: I spent about ten years not religious at all. I 450 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 3: got it. I became Episcopalian. I think that got me 451 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 3: in touch with the church. Across time and space, and 452 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 3: religion across time and space. Like the church I grew 453 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: up in, everything was private and personal, and you know, 454 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: you're praying in your head all alone, which is such 455 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: an American thing. Yeah, And to have this experience that 456 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 3: is the experience of so many people, and you know, 457 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: certainly in a tradition like Judaism or Islam, where you 458 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 3: are saying words the same words that other people have 459 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 3: said before you for thousands of years. You know, I 460 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 3: learned to really, you know, have a reverence for that, 461 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 3: to find that a sacred thing. And I think that 462 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: also helped me be empathic about the deep religiosity of 463 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 3: religious others and really, you know, find find that very beautiful. 464 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 3: At this point, it's very open for me. It's very expansive, 465 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 3: and it's it is it's so personal. I think as 466 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 3: something I've come to think about for a long time, 467 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: I would I had kind of ambivalence about Christianity. I've 468 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 3: come to understand it is my mother tongue, like it 469 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 3: is my spiritual homeland and not to take not to 470 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: take up lightly. So for a long time I meditated, 471 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 3: and I've interviewed so many of the great Buddhist teachers, 472 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 3: and I'm very formed by that tradition and it's spiritual 473 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 3: technologies and it's wisdom. But at some point I realized, like, 474 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 3: I also need to be praying, because that's what I 475 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 3: learned how to do. And I do think there are 476 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 3: forms of religious practice and spiritual practice. I do think 477 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 3: it's very much like we find what is suited to us. 478 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 3: I mean, it's almost a little bit like the sport 479 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 3: we do, or like yoga. I mean, I think there's 480 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 3: so many different right, and you know, you have to 481 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 3: find the one, the postures and the pace, the kind 482 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 3: of challenge or restoration or whatever it is that you need. 483 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 3: And I kind of think that spiritual ritual is like 484 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 3: that too. 485 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: And I do think, you know, as you talk about that, 486 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: I can't help but to think travel is our greatest teacher. 487 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is, like. 488 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: You know, coming from such a small town, and I too, 489 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: grew up on a military base. Both of my grandparents 490 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: were very successful in the Air Force, and we lived 491 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: right by Kennedy Space Center, and I was very much 492 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: so a NASA baby, and it just my parents didn't 493 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: enjoy the travel and the constant change of schools and 494 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: the different cultures. 495 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: I mean my father was. 496 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: Like Mobile Alabama to Birmingham to Arkansas to Hawaii, and 497 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: my mom was Germany and Spain and all these places 498 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: and they wanted nothing to do with it. And I 499 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: became a very good soccer player, and I did feel 500 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: like I was able to see. 501 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 3: The world. 502 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: Through the len of what this. 503 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: There was culture outside of the Western culture, and I 504 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: truthfully it's why I love soccer so much. It's everyone 505 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: shows up and you don't even speak the same language, 506 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: but the joy and love for the game and the 507 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: atmosphere of being connected to people. 508 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 3: That's the beauty of sport. 509 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 2: It's not the game, it's the connection. 510 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 3: And I think soccer has that, oh yeah, to a special. 511 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: Universal the language. 512 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: It's just the connection piece is so is so important. 513 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: And not to get a little off topic, but when 514 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: you were just talking, you know, it's really important to 515 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: me because you talk about this often, about a big 516 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: defining moment and your life was really realizing your family 517 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: was terrible listeners. 518 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I don't want. 519 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: To directly quote you, but you you really do talk 520 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: about listening is such an act of love. How did 521 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: you become such a great listener, How did you create 522 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: a space where people feel so comfortable to tell you 523 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: things they might otherwise not feel safe sharing. 524 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 3: You know? Probably part of it, like you, is that 525 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 3: I just find the world and human beings so fascinating 526 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 3: and so bizarre and surprising. And the closer you look, 527 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 3: the harder you look, the more surprising it is and 528 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 3: the more as unexpected. I also I also am am 529 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 3: you know, ampathic. I don't know if people talked that 530 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 3: way when I was growing up. I mean, I think 531 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 3: we now know that that is a thing. Did you 532 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 3: happen to watch Star Trek the Next Generation? I did 533 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: not know. But do you know about the ship's counselor 534 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: well she is it was an empathy. She's half Baitazoid, 535 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 3: which is a race of empaths. And so once I 536 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 3: saw that, I realized that, I mean, I joke about 537 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 3: this with people or half batizoid after all. But I think, 538 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 3: you know, any kind of gift like this is something 539 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 3: that you can lose if you don't engage it. But 540 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 3: and let me just yeah, I think also growing up 541 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 3: with my father in particular, who was just really broken 542 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 3: and really deep down sad and troubled and wouldn't I 543 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: think that I spent a lot of my childhood. I 544 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 3: think this is true of other you know children, sometimes 545 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 3: of you know, trying to into it what he couldn't say, 546 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 3: and probably developing that that muscle, you know, feeling things 547 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 3: other people are feeling, and then being able to honor 548 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 3: that and lean into that and turn it into a conversation, 549 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 3: you know. I think listening listening. Like I learned growing 550 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 3: up that listening was being quiet while the other person 551 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 3: said what they had to say, so then it would 552 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 3: be my turn. And I really think that listening. I 553 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 3: think that the being quiet part is a byproduct. I 554 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 3: think listening is really is. Of course, of course I've 555 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 3: learned to be a better listener. I mean, anything we do, 556 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 3: anything we do repetitively, we get better at. But it's 557 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 3: it's really about following. It's about it's about treating the 558 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 3: muscle of curiosity, and it's about being present with your 559 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 3: curiosity to the other person. And for me, that is 560 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 3: second nature, and I've flexed those muscles for a long time. 561 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 3: I think they are basic social arts, they are basic 562 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 3: human capacities. However, they kind of get educated out of 563 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 3: us in this world we're really trained to be advocates 564 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 3: and to have strong opinions, and to be good in 565 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 3: arguments and to be presentational, and those things have their place, 566 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 3: but we're not all. They kind of work against showing 567 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 3: up with another person and truly being curious, which means, 568 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: I don't you know. I may know something about you, right, 569 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 3: I may know something about your identity, or I may 570 00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 3: be looking at you and and you know, making observations. 571 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 3: I may know who you voted for. Right. I may 572 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 3: know something about you, know some identity you have, some 573 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 3: skill you have, but I know that that one thing 574 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 3: that there's so much more to you, and I want 575 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 3: you to surprise me. And in this culture, I think 576 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 3: we have these ideas. You know, we latch onto the 577 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 3: one thing we know, and we have an opinion about that, 578 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 3: and we don't imagine how complicated and fascinating and how 579 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 3: much that other person will probably defy a lot of 580 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 3: what we would expect and unless we really move towards them. 581 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: It's it's so interesting that you say that, especially right 582 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: now with the political landscape and climate. I haven't lived 583 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: a lot of decades, but this is the first one 584 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: of my lifetime where I feel. 585 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: Like it's really scary. 586 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the first time I do feel scared to 587 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: raise two black You know, my children are black and brown, 588 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: and I'm a queer woman in this country. 589 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: I'm scared. 590 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I show up in the spaces I can 591 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: and always choose love. It's the greatest asset and gift 592 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: I can give to the universe, and it's completely free. 593 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: And I'm curious for someone who has spent a lifetime 594 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: technically in politics and journalism, what do you think about 595 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: the current landscape of what's going on in journalism and 596 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: media and politics and religion, Like there's just so much 597 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: divide I'm curious of how you pour more into your 598 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: work because of it. 599 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 3: First of all, I think everything that's happening now, we 600 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 3: have been walking into it for a long time in 601 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 3: all kinds of ways and not wanting to deal with 602 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 3: the things we would have needed to deal with. But 603 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 3: when I analyze this world through the human condition, I 604 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 3: think fear is running the show to such an extent 605 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 3: that all the things we want to take seriously and 606 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 3: that actually we wanted to think we'll protect us and 607 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,320 Speaker 3: keep order in place, like politics and the economy, these 608 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 3: are just symptoms. If you know, living out of a 609 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 3: fear place means in our because we and also in 610 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 3: these thirty forty years, we've learned so much about what 611 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,439 Speaker 3: fear does in a human body. It just collapses your 612 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 3: ability to think clearly, to think deeply, you know, it 613 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 3: kind of collapses our range of our sense of our agency. 614 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 3: Tore three things, fight, deny, or bury your head in 615 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 3: the sand. And that is a pretty good way to 616 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 3: analyze what we're doing. Yes, you know what's happening, and 617 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 3: all you know, we have these reckonings. We do have 618 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 3: these big reckonings, callings in this century, in this generation 619 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 3: of our species. You know that are I mean are 620 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: ecological I think most existentially, but also racial, so you know, social, 621 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 3: like we're redefining marriage and family and gender. What a 622 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 3: huge thing to be the general Like, if that were 623 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 3: the only thing that we're happening right now, that we 624 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 3: would this would still be really big and we'd be 625 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 3: tending to it better. But and then I think, and 626 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 3: I don't. We don't because we have this tendency, We 627 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 3: have this drive which I know also probably keeps us 628 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 3: sane to normalize, normalized, normalize. We came out of these 629 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 3: three years of global pandemic in which our everybody's nervous 630 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,439 Speaker 3: system was on stuck on high for years. We were 631 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 3: also deprived of the very thing that helps us calm down, 632 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 3: which is proximity to other human beings. And so when 633 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 3: I look at the world right now, I see a distressed, 634 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 3: disregulated nervous system at a species level, you know, not 635 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 3: just in our individual bodies, but in our collective body. 636 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 3: That doesn't make anything simpler, That's so true. But I wonder, 637 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 3: you know, my question is, and I think this is 638 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,919 Speaker 3: what I'm going to spend the next however many years 639 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,839 Speaker 3: left I have left to be you know, really engaged, Like, 640 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 3: let's also work directly on that. If it's the human 641 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 3: heart and human bodies and human well being that all 642 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 3: of this fracture. And as you say, like hatred and 643 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 3: and anger and hatred and violence are our fear and 644 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 3: pain metastasized, right, They're just extreme expressions of this very 645 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 3: primal feeling. And we don't have a society in particular 646 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 3: where people feel safe, where are safe really to say 647 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 3: I'm in pain right instead to say I'm angry, I 648 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 3: want this, I'm going to fight for that, I'm going 649 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 3: to vote for this person that feels like strength. But 650 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 3: we are going to have to open space and I 651 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 3: want I like your love, love loving space. Love. Love 652 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 3: is love is a muscle, right, I mean, love is 653 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 3: the most reliable muscle of human transformation. It's the only 654 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 3: thing is powerful in a human body as fear. So 655 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 3: that's what I see, and like, that's how I'm trying 656 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 3: to think about. What's this space I want to move 657 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 3: in And it needs all of us, with all of 658 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 3: our you know, everybody it's going to have a different 659 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,879 Speaker 3: focus and a different sense of where to direct their agency. 660 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris. 661 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 662 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious because you've created on being and you have 663 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: interviewed some of the most exceptional people ever. 664 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,240 Speaker 3: Like how did you prepare? 665 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: But I'm curious of how you got to that level 666 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: of sitting down with some of the most exceptional people 667 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: and just absolutely having breakthrough conversation after breakthrough, Like how 668 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: did you do this? 669 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 3: Uh? Yeah, Well, so I think that the empathic gift 670 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 3: is probably is is the gift part of it. But 671 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 3: then yes, there's a huge amount of preparation. Now what 672 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 3: I will say. What I will say that's exciting is 673 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 3: because previously, before I did this show, I was somebody 674 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 3: who would do something for two or three years and 675 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 3: then do something else for two or three years. And 676 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 3: I have learned the beauty of doing something for a 677 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 3: long span of time. And one of the beautiful things 678 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 3: is you just get better at it. Right. So I 679 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 3: became really aware in the last few years, just in particular, 680 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 3: that I felt my preparation, the quality of it was 681 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,919 Speaker 3: as good, you know, you know, you also just get 682 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 3: a sense of relax I knew I knew what I 683 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 3: was doing, even though there's always that you know, that edge, 684 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 3: which is which is good for I think we helped 685 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 3: us right, But still I knew what I was doing, 686 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 3: and I realized that I can could do the same 687 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 3: quality of preparation and a fraction of the time. So 688 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 3: that's a little bit mysterious, but but we know that 689 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 3: we know that's true another and other fields as well. 690 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 3: I'm going to use another star trek. 691 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, keep on coming. Now I'm gonna go and 692 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 2: watch it. 693 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 3: Well, I don't think it's I don't think it stood 694 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 3: the test of time, but there were some great lessons 695 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 3: for life so in the early Star Trek, which is 696 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 3: pretty cheesy. Uh, there's there's the Vulcan doctor Spock, which 697 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 3: you've heard of Spock. 698 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: I sure have. 699 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 3: So he would do this thing with that that the 700 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 3: Vulcans did, which was called the Vulcan mind meld. It's 701 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 3: like there's the laying on of hands, but it's basically 702 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 3: my mind to your mind, your thoughts to my thoughts. Yeah, 703 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 3: and there would be kind of this telepathic thing going on. 704 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 3: But what I I don't know when I I don't 705 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 3: know when that that image came to me. I'm not 706 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 3: sure I was directly inspired by it, but I always 707 00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 3: felt like, because you know, the Internet does make in 708 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 3: readible preparation possible overwhelmingly, But what I would do is 709 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,839 Speaker 3: kind of and try to immerse in, you know, as 710 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 3: you've done with me other interviews, things people have written, 711 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 3: you know, what is noble and kind of feel like 712 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,319 Speaker 3: it was like, I think the thing that I did 713 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 3: that maybe is a little bit different or just a 714 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 3: way that what I wanted to do is not just 715 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 3: know what people know, but how they think, so that 716 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 3: so that I would be asking questions that would be 717 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 3: interesting to them, which are gonna be more enjoyable for 718 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,759 Speaker 3: them to kind of get lost in answering, so that 719 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 3: they forget that they're answering a question. We're having a conversation. 720 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 3: I think also, I learned over time, and I feel 721 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 3: like you're doing this too. You know, conversation is different 722 00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 3: from an interview. Yes, so, yes, I'm the one who 723 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 3: comes with a kind of roadmap of questions and I'm postings. 724 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 3: It's an act of hospitality, which is a human is 725 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 3: a social technology for inviting people to be their best selves. 726 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 3: But also if it's a conversation, I'm going to have 727 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 3: reactions to what you're saying, and I'm going to share 728 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 3: something about me, right because just when you told me 729 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 3: a minute ago where you came from, I was just 730 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 3: about I just decided I'm okay. I know I'm not 731 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 3: supposed to be the one asking you for what I 732 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 3: was going to ask you just then, yeah, where did 733 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 3: you grow up? Like? You know? So? And then I 734 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 3: think the other thing that happens if you if it 735 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:44,800 Speaker 3: becomes if you get into that flow of a real exchange, 736 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,239 Speaker 3: then everybody forgets that it's you know, you forget you're 737 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 3: being interviewed. And I think the measure of a you know, 738 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 3: a success, A successful conversation is if the person I'm 739 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 3: talking to puts words around something you know in this 740 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 3: place that they've never quite put words around in that 741 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,280 Speaker 3: way before. And I've certainly done that in this hour. 742 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 3: And then the magic of technology is that when you know, 743 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 3: when whoever presses play on this episode, and it may 744 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 3: be years from now, it's a time it's time travel 745 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 3: because they are like in the room with us, they 746 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 3: hear me in the moment put words around something in 747 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,760 Speaker 3: a way I never have before. Yeah, And that's magic, 748 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 3: it really is. And that's like the mystery of us 749 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 3: reaching across each other. And the mystery is is you 750 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 3: have no idea where the conversation is going to go. 751 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,839 Speaker 3: But that's the beauty and you trust that. Oh I 752 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 3: love it. Yes, you trust it. And it's scary and 753 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 3: it's risky. It's a safari. Well's I do? 754 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 1: This question that keeps coming to me right now is 755 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: like you you really have spent your whole life exploring 756 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: the big questions of life, the really impactful questions. What 757 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 1: do you think is the big question you're still trying 758 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:14,919 Speaker 1: to answer for yourself at this age, at this age. 759 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 3: So I had to decide that I got to not 760 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 3: that joy and pleasure and play were not optional. I 761 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 3: I like, you know, really, for the years there and 762 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 3: I was pretty much single parenting, I drove myself to 763 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 3: exhaustion again and again again. And that wasn't That's not 764 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 3: what I was transmitting to other people, right. So, but 765 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,720 Speaker 3: I'm I mean, I am actually now in a whole 766 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 3: new chapter. And one of the things that is fast 767 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,400 Speaker 3: has been fascinating in my lifetime. And I want to 768 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,759 Speaker 3: say this too. You know, there's so much we can 769 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 3: look around ourselves and just wring our hands and beat 770 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 3: our breasts from all this, there's also so much that 771 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 3: is just magnificent. There's so much learning. There's so much breakthrough, 772 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 3: beautiful science. What we're learning about the natural world, we're 773 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 3: learning about the cosmos, what we're learning about our bodies 774 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:35,440 Speaker 3: and our brains. I went to a conference in Iceland 775 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 3: two weeks ago on this incredible research about psychedelically assisted therapies. Yes, 776 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 3: I mean we are on the cusp of actually being 777 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 3: able to work with our consciousness. Yes, So I just 778 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 3: set myself off. Yeah, So I one of the fascinating 779 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 3: things of my lifetime has been the evolution of aging, 780 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 3: because I'm sixty four and this is not what sixty 781 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 3: four was when I was growing up, or even when 782 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 3: I think I was thirty or forty. Like, just in 783 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,319 Speaker 3: this twenty year span, I think aging has become very 784 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,239 Speaker 3: relative to who you are and how you live and 785 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 3: just how you think about it. But I am embarking 786 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,520 Speaker 3: on this whole new chapter and it might be as 787 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,360 Speaker 3: long as the chapter I just went through starting the show, 788 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 3: and that's new. I like to be living with This 789 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 3: kind of evolution is wonderful. So so, I mean, I'm 790 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 3: actually at a place I was at twenty three. Again, 791 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I have more ideas, I know what I know. 792 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,800 Speaker 3: There are also doors that have closed, and I'm totally 793 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 3: at peace with that. You know, when you're twenty three, 794 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 3: you kind of think, well, I could go back to 795 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,440 Speaker 3: I could go to medical school and become a doctor. 796 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 3: And it's actually kind of relief to not have all 797 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,279 Speaker 3: those options and also un fortunate that I don't have 798 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 3: big regrets. I don't feel like, you know, I feel 799 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,399 Speaker 3: like I walked a path that's when you really live. Yeah, 800 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 3: but I'm asking, you know, with the same kind of 801 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 3: sense of expectancy and not knowing like how I can 802 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 3: be of service in this world that I was asking, 803 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 3: you know, when I was in my early thirties, when 804 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 3: I started or mid thirties, mid midtal late thirties, when 805 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,440 Speaker 3: I started thinking about, you know, what became on being, 806 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 3: And I'm asking it in such a different world where 807 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 3: we've been stripped of a lot of the illusions that 808 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,920 Speaker 3: we had about just how everything was going to be up, 809 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,839 Speaker 3: and we had defied the laws of physics, and sure 810 00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 3: we still had a few problems, but we were always 811 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 3: getting better, right exactly. Fortunately, we we these basic forms 812 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 3: like schools and education in medicine, and politics and the 813 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,880 Speaker 3: law and prisons and you know, and and again marriage 814 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:21,240 Speaker 3: and family and gender. We those forms aren't fit for purpose. 815 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,760 Speaker 3: So we're also and I think this is another reason 816 00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 3: that our nervous systems are distressed, because it is actually 817 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 3: a stressful thing to be in a time when so 818 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 3: much is breaking, some of which needs to break, or 819 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,680 Speaker 3: some of which wasn't working, a lot of which wasn't working. 820 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 3: But also where we're in the time where we can 821 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 3: see what's not we can see the forms that don't work, 822 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 3: we can see what's breaking, we're the ones who have 823 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 3: to start making remaking or making it back by brick, 824 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,560 Speaker 3: and so I'm so that's and and also I think 825 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 3: whatever any of us takes on now in terms of 826 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 3: our sense of purpose, you know, not necessarily the particular activities, 827 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,600 Speaker 3: is the work of the rest of our lifetimes, right 828 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,200 Speaker 3: because what we everything that's with us now is civilizational. 829 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 3: And so that's interesting too in some ways to be 830 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,279 Speaker 3: asking some of the same questions always asking at the 831 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,800 Speaker 3: beginning of my adult life, but in such a different context. 832 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,000 Speaker 3: And you know, right now, a lot of what I'm 833 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,800 Speaker 3: doing is off off Mike, you know, I'm doing conversations 834 00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 3: with small groups of people because there are again these deep, 835 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 3: deep things we need to talk about and things we 836 00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,759 Speaker 3: need to say out loud, and we can't say them 837 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,640 Speaker 3: in public. But we have to do that. We have 838 00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 3: to do that work because we're all we are walking 839 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 3: towards the beyond of this. 840 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:54,400 Speaker 2: I love that. That's such an incredible way to put it. 841 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 1: I guess the last question I really have, and it's 842 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,480 Speaker 1: a question that I ask every guest on the show show, 843 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,040 Speaker 1: what moment in your life really split you wide open, 844 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:12,760 Speaker 1: that changed everything, that made you either question, rethink, alter 845 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,640 Speaker 1: the way you move in the world, Like, what was 846 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,799 Speaker 1: that one moment for you that changed it all? 847 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,879 Speaker 3: I feel like if I thought about it long enough, 848 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,200 Speaker 3: there are probably a few, but the one that is 849 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,359 Speaker 3: probably the most obvious that comes to mind is in 850 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,719 Speaker 3: my mid thirties, I had a really big depression, like 851 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:41,879 Speaker 3: a really big clinical depression, and it was it was 852 00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,120 Speaker 3: the time that I finally kind of told myself the 853 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,680 Speaker 3: truth about all that stuff in my family that I 854 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 3: talked about, because well, you know, you normalize, right, and 855 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 3: I really wasn't quite owning I wasn't owning the truth, 856 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 3: and also just the ways and this is what we do, right, 857 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,319 Speaker 3: the ways I had shaped myself around that dysfunction and 858 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 3: that pain of someone else, and around not telling the 859 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:17,680 Speaker 3: whole story. And so I mean, this was you know, 860 00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,520 Speaker 3: it was a really major depression, and it you know, 861 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 3: it had I had all the physical symptoms and at 862 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 3: some point, you know, just went to bed and could 863 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:34,880 Speaker 3: not imagine. It's not I think, in that kind of depression, 864 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,840 Speaker 3: it's not that you can't imagine the future. It's that 865 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:45,560 Speaker 3: you can't imagine imagining the future, right. Yeah. I do 866 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 3: remember a day my daughter was really young. I remember 867 00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 3: a day when I came downstairs and she looked at 868 00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,600 Speaker 3: me and said, Mommy, you look so sad, And in 869 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,480 Speaker 3: that moment, I knew I had to get better, you know. 870 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:06,840 Speaker 3: But the thing is, it sent me into it forced 871 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,080 Speaker 3: me into this odyssey of self knowledge that I had 872 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:17,280 Speaker 3: not wanted to do. And it was a slow climb out. 873 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,040 Speaker 3: But I don't think I could have done everything I've 874 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,800 Speaker 3: done since if I hadn't had that crash. And right 875 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:32,200 Speaker 3: that's also a mystery of us, and it's always with me. 876 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,320 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm fortunate because a lot of times when 877 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,600 Speaker 3: people have had an experience like that, it's something that 878 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,040 Speaker 3: comes back, and it could come back. And we did 879 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,840 Speaker 3: a show called The Soul and Depression in the early Years, 880 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 3: and it was almost like that was a little piece 881 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 3: of therapy for me walking myself through it, and it 882 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,920 Speaker 3: was really scary. That whole thing felt terrifying just to walk. 883 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,560 Speaker 3: And I lived for a long time feeling better, but 884 00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 3: feeling like I knew there was this abyss and it 885 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,880 Speaker 3: was over here somewhere, and it could happen one day 886 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,480 Speaker 3: that I just woke up and happened to be standing 887 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,960 Speaker 3: right by it. You know that I could fall into 888 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,440 Speaker 3: it again. Now I don't live that way anymore, but 889 00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:17,880 Speaker 3: I know how profamily shaped I am by that experience. 890 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:21,200 Speaker 3: And so it's like not something that you would wish 891 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,960 Speaker 3: on anyone or some equivalent of this. It's not even 892 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,440 Speaker 3: something I would wish on myself, but I have to 893 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 3: be so grateful for it, and I have to be 894 00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:36,520 Speaker 3: grateful for my self at that age who took it 895 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:38,680 Speaker 3: on as a you know, I don't want to say 896 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:40,920 Speaker 3: a fight, like took it on as a calling to 897 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:48,680 Speaker 3: learn everything I could and stayed with that. And here 898 00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:49,160 Speaker 3: I am. 899 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:53,760 Speaker 1: I love that, yeah, and it's I feel that in 900 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 1: my bones because this has been a healing journey for 901 00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,400 Speaker 1: me as well. I'm so grateful for your vulnerability and 902 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:06,880 Speaker 1: to share this beautiful conversation. It's I told you when 903 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,800 Speaker 1: when you first got here. My partner, Sophia is just 904 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,960 Speaker 1: in awe of you, and I can see why you 905 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,480 Speaker 1: have a beautiful spirit and soul and I'm grateful for 906 00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 1: your work and your time today, and I hope this 907 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,040 Speaker 1: is one of many more conversations we can have together. 908 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,360 Speaker 2: And thanks for being here today. 909 00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:33,360 Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm I feel like you're on a beautiful 910 00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:38,960 Speaker 3: and brave path. I'm really impressed, and yeah, blessings too, 911 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:40,680 Speaker 3: and yes, I'd love to keep talking. 912 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:45,280 Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks Christopher being here. Thanks everyone for tuning 913 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:46,760 Speaker 1: in for another week of Wide Open. 914 00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:47,640 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time. 915 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,560 Speaker 1: Wide Open with Ashland Harris is an iHeart women's sports production. 916 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,720 Speaker 1: You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 917 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,160 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. How Our producers are 918 01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones. Production assistants 919 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:13,240 Speaker 1: from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny 920 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,320 Speaker 1: Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan and 921 01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris