1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,040
Speaker 1: You know, if you look at any industry, any product,

2
00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,560
Speaker 1: any service out there in the marketplace, there aren't that

3
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:11,240
Speaker 1: many that have changed as little in a generation as

4
00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 1: residential undergraduate education. I would like to believe that all

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,280
Speaker 1: of your listeners, they can be system beaters and they

6
00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,119
Speaker 1: can be system burners. It is possible to have both

7
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,800
Speaker 1: goals in mind, existing and not clashing by the way

8
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:32,800
Speaker 1: in your head simultaneously. Right now, many students are stuck.

9
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,479
Speaker 1: If they go to their dream college, they could be

10
00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,879
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars in debts. They don't know

11
00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,559
Speaker 1: if come fall their classes are going to be online

12
00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,919
Speaker 1: or in person. And for those already in school, they

13
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: don't know if there's a job waiting for them when

14
00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 1: they graduate during one of the worst financial crisis is

15
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,680
Speaker 1: our country has ever seen. Then there are other kids

16
00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 1: who don't really have any idea what they want to do,

17
00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 1: don't especially want to go to college, but end up

18
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,440
Speaker 1: there because there's not really other options in the United

19
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 1: States of America, and the only thing they end up

20
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,039
Speaker 1: with is a lot of debt and less direction than ever.

21
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,480
Speaker 1: This pandemic has put a spotlight on a lot of

22
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 1: problems in our education system. And our workforce, and one

23
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: of them is higher education. How do we pay for it?

24
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,200
Speaker 1: What's the value of it? I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC Anchor,

25
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,920
Speaker 1: NBC News Senior correspondent, And this is Modern Rules, a

26
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:34,880
Speaker 1: podcast from NBC Think and I Heart Radio. We've got

27
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,760
Speaker 1: a moment. We're in crisis. Can we do better? Ron

28
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,480
Speaker 1: Lieber is asking that very question in his new book,

29
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,000
Speaker 1: The Price You Pay for College is the author of

30
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: the New York Times personal finance column Your Money. Ron.

31
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,120
Speaker 1: For years and years and years, we weren't thinking about

32
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,640
Speaker 1: the price of college, the value of college? Is it

33
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 1: worth it? Well? I think you have to start by

34
00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,320
Speaker 1: asking yourself what college is? All right? What is called for?

35
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what the answer to that question was,

36
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,640
Speaker 1: and so I asked, you know, scores of families and

37
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,919
Speaker 1: I heard the same three things over and over again.

38
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,799
Speaker 1: College is for getting an education, for having your mind grown,

39
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,560
Speaker 1: in your mind blown. It is for kinship. It is

40
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 1: for finding the people who will carry you through life.

41
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: It is for getting a credential, whether it's the gold

42
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,359
Speaker 1: plated one that will open doors or just the degree

43
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,120
Speaker 1: that will allow you to grasp hold of the middle class.

44
00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 1: And hopefully stay there. And so in order to answer

45
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,239
Speaker 1: the question of whether college is worth it, you need

46
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 1: to define it for your individual family. It's not something

47
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 1: that we as a nation can dictate for any given individual.

48
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,520
Speaker 1: But then, how did we get to this place? Right?

49
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,679
Speaker 1: My dad worked in the summer and put himself through

50
00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: school and had a tiny bit of debt after How

51
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,000
Speaker 1: did college get this expensive? There are so many more

52
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,160
Speaker 1: things pulling on our household incomes than there used to be.

53
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,399
Speaker 1: We are entirely responsible in most instances for our own retirement.

54
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,919
Speaker 1: We are paying more and more out of our own

55
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,760
Speaker 1: pockets for healthcare. Many people are paying off their own

56
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,320
Speaker 1: student loaned well into their forties or fifties. Right, so

57
00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,640
Speaker 1: people don't have the same kind of disposable income as

58
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 1: they might have earlier. States have reduced their subsidies towards

59
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 1: higher education, which means the price of those state schools

60
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 1: has gone up, and then the private institutions they've gotten

61
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 1: more and more expensive. So the middle class there is

62
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 1: being squeezed. This whole idea of I want to go

63
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,000
Speaker 1: to a liberal arts college and better myself, and then

64
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: the world is will be my oyster. It's kind of

65
00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 1: an antiquated thought. Sure, I'd like to enrich myself, but

66
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 1: not if it's going to put me in hundreds of

67
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,520
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars worth of debt. I remember when I

68
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 1: was a senior in college. I went to Lehigh and Lee,

69
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: I could absolutely help you on the career services front

70
00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,320
Speaker 1: if you wanted to go work in an accounting firm

71
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,520
Speaker 1: or be an engineer. I wanted to work in investment banking.

72
00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 1: So I drove to New York City with my mother

73
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,040
Speaker 1: and I snuck into the career services office at Columbia

74
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 1: University and I borrowed these giant binders that had every

75
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,040
Speaker 1: piece of information that you needed for every bank, every

76
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 1: financial institution, so you could apply for the summer internships.

77
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 1: And I went to the photo copy machine to start,

78
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 1: and you needed to have a school. I d to

79
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,400
Speaker 1: use the photo copier. I got caught and I got

80
00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,359
Speaker 1: kicked out. The reason I bring this up we send

81
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 1: these kids to college, but the best jobs are directly

82
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: linked to only a few schools. So do we need

83
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,800
Speaker 1: to start looking at here's a college, What is the

84
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 1: job my child is going to get on the other side,

85
00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 1: because otherwise they will be sitting here in hundreds of

86
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,200
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars with a deck Yes to all of that.

87
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,880
Speaker 1: First of all, that is the most badass career services

88
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 1: story that I have ever heard. Your description of this

89
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 1: as quote unquote best jobs, right, I mean, it is

90
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 1: true that the best jobs in investment banking very narrow field,

91
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 1: only higher from uh certain institutions, right unless you beat

92
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,600
Speaker 1: down the door. But are those the best jobs in America?

93
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,480
Speaker 1: Are they the best jobs for anyone? Goldman Saxes is

94
00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,600
Speaker 1: hiring all these people in Salt Lake City now who

95
00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,919
Speaker 1: do not come from Columbia and Harvard and Stanford and

96
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 1: m I T. So then we have to ask ourselves, well,

97
00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,039
Speaker 1: these are iconic jobs in in certain social classes, but

98
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,960
Speaker 1: are they really the best jobs out there for any

99
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,040
Speaker 1: given twenty two year old. I don't think so. Before

100
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,919
Speaker 1: the pandemic, we knew there was a skills gap in

101
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 1: the United States. We were at full employment, yet we

102
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,359
Speaker 1: had millions of Americans who are not making enough money

103
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,919
Speaker 1: to support themselves. We had people who had jobs, but

104
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 1: not good enough jobs. But you hear people making that

105
00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,960
Speaker 1: argument saying you cannot afford to support yourself and your

106
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 1: family working in a fast food restaurant but that job

107
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 1: was never intended for someone who has a family to support.

108
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 1: Is there an opportunity to actually create a real jobs program,

109
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,200
Speaker 1: a skills retraining program. So it's not just about raising

110
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:04,679
Speaker 1: minimum wage, it's about retraining people to qualify themselves for better,

111
00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,599
Speaker 1: higher paying jobs. Yes, and that infrastructure already exists. We

112
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:14,159
Speaker 1: can use the community college infrastructure to provide that skills training.

113
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 1: But we also have, you know, a shortage of qualified

114
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,919
Speaker 1: instructors to teach some of these skills. Why because the

115
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 1: skills are so in demand that the people who would

116
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,360
Speaker 1: be doing the instructing are making five times as much

117
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,839
Speaker 1: money being actual practitioners. If you're a master plumber, you're

118
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,400
Speaker 1: not going to spend twenty hours a week teaching at

119
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: a community college, even though it be a service to

120
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 1: the community. If you are, you know, a welder with

121
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,040
Speaker 1: twenty five years of experience, right, same thing is true.

122
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,080
Speaker 1: So how are we going to create the budget that

123
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:48,960
Speaker 1: allows for more people to be pushed through rigorous training programs?

124
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,600
Speaker 1: And so we need to do more um I think

125
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,520
Speaker 1: from a state perspective and from a federal perspective, not

126
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 1: just to provide the money, but also to ensure equity

127
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 1: and access to these programs. Now that kids are home

128
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 1: and you're Duke, m I T or Lafayette college experience

129
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 1: is no different from the University of Phoenix. Could this

130
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 1: actually press pause for a revisit on the price of college. Well,

131
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,320
Speaker 1: look at it this way, right, everybody gets sent home

132
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,200
Speaker 1: the second week in March, and by the fourth week

133
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 1: in March and the second week in April, there's a

134
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 1: clamor for refunds, and then by the first week in

135
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,440
Speaker 1: May there's a couple of dozen lawsuits right where people

136
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 1: are freaking out and demanding their tuition back to But

137
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 1: then something really weird happened over the summer. All of

138
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,000
Speaker 1: these colleges were fundamentally dishonest about why they were reopening

139
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,600
Speaker 1: in September. They were arguing it could be done safely,

140
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,920
Speaker 1: But what they really should have said is, look, we

141
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,240
Speaker 1: need the revenue. If we don't get the revenue, we're

142
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,080
Speaker 1: gonna have to cut this place to ribbons, and then

143
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:52,840
Speaker 1: it won't be the place that you'd want to come

144
00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 1: back to um eighteen months from now. So we gotta

145
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 1: make a go of us here and when we want

146
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 1: you all in. But strange families and the students were

147
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,320
Speaker 1: all in any way right because they had lost so

148
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 1: much in the spring. They all wanted to come back

149
00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,800
Speaker 1: and pay full price for what was clearly going to

150
00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 1: be a compromised experience socially and academically. And then a

151
00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 1: bunch of them got sick to right, and yet they

152
00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 1: still came. Why did they still come? Because the residential

153
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,840
Speaker 1: undergraduate experience in the United States of America has become

154
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 1: a rite of passage for the middle class and above.

155
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,680
Speaker 1: So it's not clear to me how we dismantle that

156
00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,720
Speaker 1: when so many people were desperate to come back and

157
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 1: pay for a compromised experience, which I don't think they

158
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 1: should have done, by the way. Yes, but in generations prior,

159
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,800
Speaker 1: more and more members of the middle class could go

160
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 1: away to college, and that college experience in a different

161
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 1: state with different people was what led you on a

162
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,440
Speaker 1: path to pursue the American dream. And today those same

163
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 1: students are either not getting into those colleges, or they're

164
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,800
Speaker 1: getting into them and are saddled with so much debt

165
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,840
Speaker 1: they never get to pursue it. Given the cost of college,

166
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:16,880
Speaker 1: are there enough jobs that pay enough money to justify

167
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,520
Speaker 1: the price of college. Families that get into trouble. The

168
00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 1: families that express regret are the ones where the students

169
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 1: max out their federal student loans. So let's call that

170
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:37,880
Speaker 1: thirts of federal debt. The parents co sign for private

171
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,400
Speaker 1: loans with the undergraduate. Call that another twenty grand, and

172
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 1: then maybe the parents borrow tens of thousands of dollars

173
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 1: more just to make it all work because the child

174
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,200
Speaker 1: just desperately wants to go to LEI, right, and they're

175
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,559
Speaker 1: not getting much merit aid, and they're not getting much

176
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,480
Speaker 1: of a discount based on their financial need. At that point,

177
00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 1: you know, you are dealing with the after effect of

178
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,440
Speaker 1: that decision financially for a minimum of ten years as

179
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,320
Speaker 1: um as a young adult, and perhaps longer as a parent,

180
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,840
Speaker 1: right if you need to work longer in order to

181
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 1: keep making those loan payments. The way that it's changing,

182
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 1: I think for that kind of family is that they

183
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,840
Speaker 1: are looking at the kinds of schools that they might

184
00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 1: not have looked at a generation ago. So you know,

185
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 1: there's a family in my book where both parents went

186
00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 1: to Princeton and one of their kids went to one

187
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 1: small college in the Midwest that offered an enormous discount

188
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 1: on the basis of merit, and then the other one

189
00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 1: went to the College of Worcester, another school that generally discounts,

190
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 1: even for affluent families, to a price just you know,

191
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars more than what it would cost to

192
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,320
Speaker 1: go to Ohio State. And so, you know, families are

193
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 1: making different choices generationally and are happy about it. Both

194
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,280
Speaker 1: these Princeton graduates are professors, and they were thrilled with

195
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 1: the quality of what's on offer at a slightly less

196
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:03,320
Speaker 1: selective institutions that are are fifty thousand dollars per per

197
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,200
Speaker 1: years than what they might have spent to send them

198
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 1: to Princeton. And I'm trying to normalize that type of

199
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 1: decision making because it leads to less debt and potentially

200
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,320
Speaker 1: more happiness. Because the fact of the matter is is

201
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,960
Speaker 1: that back in the old days, right if your parents

202
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,679
Speaker 1: went to Princeton, you got to go to Princeton too,

203
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,520
Speaker 1: and it was practically a birthright or an entitlement. And

204
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,640
Speaker 1: that's not the way that it works anymore. You know,

205
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,839
Speaker 1: Alumni legacy status does confer advantage, but these places are

206
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,640
Speaker 1: just really difficult to get into, and so I'm trying

207
00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 1: to model a form of decision making that cares less

208
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,320
Speaker 1: about the Instagram sweatshirt reveal and more about value and

209
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,080
Speaker 1: trying to define what college is supposed to be, not

210
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,400
Speaker 1: just for your family, but for your individual child. We'll

211
00:11:50,400 --> 00:12:04,160
Speaker 1: be back after the break. So where do we go

212
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 1: from here in terms of education? There's this idea, let's

213
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 1: make college free. Does that take away the motivation to

214
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,480
Speaker 1: go and respect college? Right? When you get it for free,

215
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 1: you don't treat it as well? So what would suggest

216
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,440
Speaker 1: to us that some disruptive force is about to come

217
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,080
Speaker 1: and make it go away? If the coronavirus just caused

218
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 1: people to crave it more, right, and not to demand change,

219
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,880
Speaker 1: then what would really blow it up? This becomes a

220
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,040
Speaker 1: political conversation. Because we want money to be less of

221
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,839
Speaker 1: a factor in all of this, then we need to

222
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,640
Speaker 1: become more like Scandinavia and a lot of the European

223
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 1: countries where this is subsidized, right, And that is going

224
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,559
Speaker 1: to mean not just a little more taxes, but you know,

225
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,760
Speaker 1: a fair bit more taxes. It is the case that

226
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,080
Speaker 1: in most countries where college is free or close to it,

227
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,520
Speaker 1: um access is much more limited then access is to

228
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,080
Speaker 1: higher education here in the United States, Right, There are

229
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,040
Speaker 1: all sorts of open enrollment schools in the US, not

230
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 1: just community colleges before your schools, dozens and dozens and

231
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,600
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of them. And the point at which

232
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 1: we make something free, you know, will people flock to it?

233
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 1: Will it cost more than than we think it will?

234
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,240
Speaker 1: And what will our reaction be to that going forward?

235
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 1: And will we end up in a in a situation

236
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,640
Speaker 1: where in fact, not everybody will be able to access it?

237
00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: And then we'll just be stratifying ourselves further. So I worry.

238
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,520
Speaker 1: I worry a little bit about that, this idea that

239
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,280
Speaker 1: we should cancel student debt? What about all the people

240
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,400
Speaker 1: who are able to pay it? I see this through

241
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,960
Speaker 1: the lens of politics more than policy. The thing that

242
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that Biden administration is worried about is,

243
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, we've got a fifty fifty Senate and we've

244
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,480
Speaker 1: got a House of Representatives that you know is close

245
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 1: to fifty. There is absolutely no consistency to this whatsoever.

246
00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 1: And you are right. What seems to matter most too

247
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,840
Speaker 1: careful policy folks in any given administration is how do

248
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 1: you keep your political advantage right? And if people with

249
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 1: college degrees are being bailed out. And what about the

250
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 1: little guy who's the plumber and the electrician and never

251
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,840
Speaker 1: got to go to college. Will that swing um ten

252
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 1: purple districts? If that movement gets going, it's just might.

253
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,320
Speaker 1: When you think about how the FED comes in and

254
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,960
Speaker 1: rescues the market, stabilizes the markets, helps giant corporations were

255
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 1: down with that. But you can't simply help the little

256
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,720
Speaker 1: guy because that little guy is just a lazy loser.

257
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,040
Speaker 1: Do we need to change the way we think and

258
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: not think in a way of the guy who didn't

259
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 1: get a chance to go to college and became a

260
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,720
Speaker 1: plumber and redefine this person chooses to go to college

261
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,240
Speaker 1: because that works for them, and this person chooses to

262
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 1: be a plumber because it works for them. But you're

263
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 1: not a plumber by default because you weren't good enough

264
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,520
Speaker 1: for college. We're all facing a isis right now because

265
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,320
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. Could we use that to drum up

266
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 1: the will to revisit higher education. I consider it my

267
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,320
Speaker 1: role in the world to be first and foremost relentlessly practical.

268
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 1: Right I'm trying to help people win and succeed in

269
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,160
Speaker 1: the world as it exists. And I've got a whole

270
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 1: bunch of colleagues on the op ed page who are

271
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,520
Speaker 1: working on the whole world as it should be a

272
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: thing for the seventy eight percent of you know, any

273
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,160
Speaker 1: given listeners spare time where they're trying to figure out

274
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 1: how two navigate the world as it exists. I am

275
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 1: here for them, But for now, we're in the middle

276
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 1: of a pandemic and you can't get your parents a vaccine.

277
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,800
Speaker 1: Your credit score got all screwed up because they didn't

278
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 1: figure out how to put your student loan pause on correctly.

279
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,320
Speaker 1: And that's what I am here for for that, in particular,

280
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 1: the system burners, you know, I'm happy to talk to

281
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,960
Speaker 1: them all day long, but we also have to navigate

282
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 1: the world as it exists. Then, I guess my only

283
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 1: hope is people can try to stay true to themselves

284
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 1: and their priorities and their kids and don't let the

285
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 1: fear of missing out or brands or society influence you,

286
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 1: because they're not going to pay your tuition and they're

287
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,080
Speaker 1: not going to help your kids pursue what they actually

288
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 1: want to do with their lives. I think that's right.

289
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 1: And you know, one interesting question that fell out of

290
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 1: my research is how do you be a principled shopper

291
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,760
Speaker 1: for residential undergraduate higher education? Right, there are plenty of

292
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:42,320
Speaker 1: larger universities that employ a large number of adjunct teachers,

293
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 1: and many of those instructors are living at kind of

294
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,720
Speaker 1: near poverty level in terms of the wages they're making,

295
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 1: or they have miserable lives. Right. Then there are a

296
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,560
Speaker 1: whole host of supposedly really good schools that you have

297
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 1: heard of, many of which are well endowed, where the

298
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,240
Speaker 1: percentage of undergraduates who receive pell grants, which is a

299
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 1: proxy for being lower income, is abysmally low. Right, so

300
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,879
Speaker 1: there is no commitment to equity at these places. We

301
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 1: can ask better questions as part of this process that

302
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,959
Speaker 1: will put these schools on notice, um that these are

303
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: things that we care about, and I endorse that. Yeah,

304
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,400
Speaker 1: I mean, these really well endowed schools are very very

305
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,680
Speaker 1: proud to take students from some of the most vulnerable

306
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: communities and potentially give them sizeable scholarship money. But then

307
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,480
Speaker 1: when they get there and maybe room and board is

308
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 1: covered along with tuition, what about everything else? Financial insecurity

309
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 1: and food insecurity is a huge issue that's actually sending

310
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,400
Speaker 1: a lot of kids home from school. Yes, um, these

311
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,720
Speaker 1: are not rhetorical questions, and there are definitely practitioners that

312
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,040
Speaker 1: are well aware of it. Right at the more elite institutions,

313
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 1: there is at many of them a level of granularity

314
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 1: to the understanding of the issues that you call out

315
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,760
Speaker 1: what is supposed to happen to And for the students

316
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,879
Speaker 1: from California or Texas who come up to the Northeast

317
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 1: on a full ride but they don't have snow boots,

318
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,280
Speaker 1: and then you know, a tier or two down in

319
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,600
Speaker 1: terms of levels of selectivity. You have people like Professor

320
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,880
Speaker 1: Sarah Goldrick Grab at Temple University, who has done a

321
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 1: ton of work on food insecurity, and in the most

322
00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 1: recent relief pill of the past, some of her research

323
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 1: was brought to bear on the question of under what

324
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:33,359
Speaker 1: circumstances can undergraduates qualify for food stamps, And through the

325
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,520
Speaker 1: work of her and people like her, some of those

326
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 1: rules have changed to allow undergraduates a bit more generosity

327
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 1: and flexibility. So this is happening around the margins. But

328
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 1: we're not asking enough of those questions, and we're not

329
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 1: asking them loudly enough. Do you believe the American dream

330
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,120
Speaker 1: is still alive, and it's higher education the best vehicle

331
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 1: to use to pursue it. I don't want to define

332
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 1: the American dream for anybody, but the way that I

333
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 1: have seen it define most often is am I going

334
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 1: to do better than my parents did? Which then leads

335
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 1: to a natural question define better? Right? Is it income?

336
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,879
Speaker 1: Is it inflation adjusted income? Is it relative prosperity? In

337
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 1: other words, how am I doing compared to the people

338
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,439
Speaker 1: around me? Is it a world that is cleaner or

339
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 1: dirtier in terms of the air? Right? I mean, there

340
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,719
Speaker 1: are lots of different ways to define that, but if

341
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,920
Speaker 1: you believe in the simplest definition, which is just income,

342
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 1: um uh. You know, the rash Chetti group at Harvard

343
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 1: has the best, has the best data on this, and

344
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 1: they think that it's a fifty fifty coin flip, And

345
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 1: that to me is depressing a right. America used to

346
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,880
Speaker 1: be better than that, and I think it can be

347
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: better uh in the future. And I will say what

348
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,159
Speaker 1: depresses me most? I think for so many of us,

349
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,199
Speaker 1: my number one goal is to try to deliver a

350
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 1: world to my kids that's better than the one I got.

351
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of the unspoken contract we all

352
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 1: think we're entering into and I can say right now,

353
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure about that. However, every day we

354
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: can work on changing that. It's true, and in twelve

355
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 1: months we'll all have shots in our arms and hopefully

356
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: it'll feel differently. I sure hope so, Ron, thank you

357
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. Congratulations on the book.

358
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,479
Speaker 1: I hope everyone reads it gives it to a friend.

359
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 1: This is really complicated stuff, and I so appreciate all

360
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: of your work. Thank you so much for having me. H.

361
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: So much of what we do is shaped by what

362
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 1: we think we're supposed to do with our lives, by

363
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,880
Speaker 1: what our parents are, teachers are friends. It's like society

364
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: has deemed this is the right path and this is

365
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 1: the wrong path. Is that actually serving us? When it

366
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: comes to higher education, which takes an enormous amount of money,

367
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 1: an enormous amount of time, it might not put us

368
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 1: or our kids on the path to success on modern rules.

369
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 1: You know, we like to get straight to the point,

370
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: and Ron certainly left me with a lot to think

371
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 1: about what is success? If we took the norm or

372
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 1: the standard away, could we actually create an education system

373
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: that works better for more people, that could give more

374
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 1: young people a chance to succeed at things they love.

375
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 1: Maybe redefine how we characterize success, because I'm pretty sure

376
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: success and happiness are closely aligned, but I know an

377
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 1: awful lot of people on paper would be considered successful

378
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: and they're quite the opposite of happiness. I'm Stephanie Rule,

379
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think,

380
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: MSNBC and I Heart Radio. This podcast is hosted by Me,

381
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule, Mike beet In, Katrina Norvell, our executive producers.

382
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 1: Meredith Bennett Smith is Senior editor for NBC Think and

383
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: our editorial lead. The podcast is engineered and edited by

384
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 1: Josh Fisher. Additional production support provided by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum,

385
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 1: and Lauren Wynn, and special thanks to Katherine kim Are,

386
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 1: Global Head of Digital News right here at NBC News

387
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: and MSNBC. For more thought provoking analysis, visit NBC news

388
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: dot com slash Thing