Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to you
Speaker 1: by the crevice running through your soul that is threatening
Speaker 1: to break it in half. Instead, it's brought to you
Speaker 1: by cute, little fuzzy critters that are gonna patch it up.
Speaker 1: That's right, ladies and gentlemen. There are lots of critters
Speaker 1: out there who need a home. So if you want
Speaker 1: a kitty, you want a puppy, you want an adult cat,
Speaker 1: an adult dog, you want a bird, you you want
Speaker 1: something else at a possum. You want a possum, You
Speaker 1: can probably adopt a possum. Go to your local animal
Speaker 1: shelter see who they have that are available to take home.
Speaker 1: And if you've already got enough friends at home and
Speaker 1: you can't bring a new one home, remember that they
Speaker 1: can always use your time as a volunteer, or you
Speaker 1: can always donate to the cause. So get out there,
Speaker 1: find that little possum friend and enjoy. But remember he's
Speaker 1: not actually sleeping, he's just playing possum. Thank ye, Hey guys,
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast Do
Speaker 1: I Am Devin, Joined as always by Joe and Steve,
Speaker 1: and today we're gonna talk about a mystery I thought
Speaker 1: I thought this was the laundry episode. That's sexist, Steve. No,
Speaker 1: I thought it was a laundry episode because I keep
Speaker 1: asking what happened to that other sock and I don't
Speaker 1: know if it disappeared in the washer or the dryer,
Speaker 1: And you guys keep telling me we're going to cover
Speaker 1: that story. Now. That's that's actually I'm saving that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff up for my Matrix episode. Okay, yeah, gotcha there,
Speaker 1: because we do live in the Matrix kids, I know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: today we're actually going to talk about the identity of
Speaker 1: Lyle Stept. This episode has been suggested and requested by
Speaker 1: pretty much everybody once a month or two at least. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and usually we're like, we'll do it soon, I guess
Speaker 1: or whatever. So good news, we're doing it now. We're
Speaker 1: just waiting to see if somebody who is true identity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I do want to preface this by saying that I
Speaker 1: know this case is a lot of people's pet case.
Speaker 1: You know, it's the one that you do the most
Speaker 1: research on. A lot of people are kind of obsessed
Speaker 1: with this one. Yeah, they are, And we are going
Speaker 1: to try to keep this episode to our normal time
Speaker 1: of you know, about an hour, so we are very
Speaker 1: likely going to leave some things out, and the things
Speaker 1: that we leave out may end up being your favorite detail.
Speaker 1: Sorry about that. You probably have listened to the show
Speaker 1: before you know how it goes. If if we leave
Speaker 1: out your favorite detail, we encourage you to engage in
Speaker 1: the discussion that's happening online, particularly in public forums, because
Speaker 1: it's way more interesting when we can get a bunch
Speaker 1: of people involved in the conversation. UM. But you know,
Speaker 1: just bear that in mind. Bear that in mind, please,
Speaker 1: because there are a lot of little details to this
Speaker 1: story that may or may not be pertinent. I could
Speaker 1: I could easily see somebody taking this on and being
Speaker 1: a half half season, it could probably it could probably
Speaker 1: be an entire show. Maybe Yeah, I guess you could
Speaker 1: do that, but I don't know. People have done more
Speaker 1: with less. That's a good point. I'd rather keep it
Speaker 1: to UM. And then a final disclaimer before we really
Speaker 1: get into it. There's a bit of a small ears
Speaker 1: warning because we do talk about suicide a bit. Other
Speaker 1: than that, it's a pretty safe episode, so your own discretion. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's get into it. On September six, one Lyle Stevick
Speaker 1: was found hanging by a belt in a hotel room
Speaker 1: he'd rented in Amanda Park, Washington. Where's that in Washington
Speaker 1: on the state, Yes, just kidding, Yeah, Actually, you know
Speaker 1: it's funny. I'm pretty sure I've driven by Amanda Park, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I was going up through the Olympic National Forest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the may I can't remember the name that what
Speaker 1: number of highway it is that that goes Manda Park? Okay,
Speaker 1: probably did, Yeah, because I remember driving up there like
Speaker 1: a kind of a white spot in the road. But yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but yeah, but it's it's just in the Olympics, said,
Speaker 1: but it's beautiful, beautiful country. Yeah. So police did a
Speaker 1: search for next of kin and they found out that
Speaker 1: Lyle Stevick was probably a fake name, possibly from a book.
Speaker 1: It's a seven book. A lot of places on the
Speaker 1: internet you'll see it referred to as like a nine
Speaker 1: or book. But I believe the first edition came out
Speaker 1: in eighty seven called You Must Remember This Not the podcast.
Speaker 1: Apparently the author is Joyce Carol Oates got some some
Speaker 1: inquiries about this, has said that it's just a made
Speaker 1: up name. It means nothing to me. It just I
Speaker 1: just made it up and made up the whole Stevic family.
Speaker 1: You're not. Yeah, let's go ahead and talk about the
Speaker 1: events leading up to and his death, and then we'll
Speaker 1: talk about some more details and then we'll talk about theories.
Speaker 1: Perfect just like to give everybody roadmap. The most definitive timeline.
Speaker 1: Timeline we have for Lyle starts literally three days before
Speaker 1: his death, when he checked into the hotel that he
Speaker 1: would ultimately kill himself in. He had maybe arrived by
Speaker 1: bus a few hours earlier, most likely on a bus
Speaker 1: from Port Angelis, Washington, which was a southbound bus heading
Speaker 1: south because Port Angelis is on the northern tip of
Speaker 1: the state. Huh um. But a bus had come in
Speaker 1: from Aberdeen, Washington, which was a northbound bus because I
Speaker 1: was south on the southern end of the state pretty
Speaker 1: much about the same time. And when investigators checked with
Speaker 1: the two bus drivers, they didn't recognize him. But I
Speaker 1: suspect bus drivers don't recognize most of their unless you
Speaker 1: make a ruckus on the bus and give them cause
Speaker 1: to take note of who you are. Yeah, probably not.
Speaker 1: And it seems like Lyle was a pretty non I mean,
Speaker 1: he himself is not. He's actually a striking looking Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think he Yeah, you're right, was but I
Speaker 1: think he, um, he didn't seem to really make himself known. No, no,
Speaker 1: for sure, and probably the bus driver is just like
Speaker 1: looking at your ticket, anyone not looking at you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then if you just you know, sit in your
Speaker 1: seat quietly and get off in a normal spot, you're
Speaker 1: you're probably not going to be noticed. But again, somebody
Speaker 1: could have just dropped him off. He could have hitched
Speaker 1: act or somebody actually a friend could have driven him
Speaker 1: there and dropped him off, or he could have walked.
Speaker 1: I mean probably not. But the aliens could have deposited him.
Speaker 1: We don't know so, but we're pretty sure that he
Speaker 1: was on the bus. The most likely is that he
Speaker 1: was on the bus from Port Angeles, so southbound from
Speaker 1: camp it would been from like the northernmost part of Washington,
Speaker 1: basically nor the most reaches. Yeah, pretty much. Actually, you know,
Speaker 1: he could have come from can don't know, there's various
Speaker 1: to Port Angeles from Canada. Yeah, but for all in
Speaker 1: times and purposes, we can say he was most likely
Speaker 1: coming south. Lyle didn't have any luggage when he checked
Speaker 1: in the hotel, Although there is some discussion about whether
Speaker 1: or not he had a backpack. In any case, even
Speaker 1: if he did check in with a backpack, it wasn't
Speaker 1: in his room when he died. He only had a
Speaker 1: couple of things. Really, yeah, really he had like some
Speaker 1: money and then m a toothbrush and toothpaste was really
Speaker 1: the only things that could even qualify as personal belongings
Speaker 1: that he had in his room. Peter was his name, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Peter Bergman. Yeah. So, like we said, he checked in
Speaker 1: the hotel on the fourteenth of September two thousand one.
Speaker 1: He paid for one night cash, but he said he
Speaker 1: was probably going to stay more nights, and he ended
Speaker 1: up staying three nights. He was initially put in room eight,
Speaker 1: which was the room that was at the very end
Speaker 1: of the a motel hotel sort of. It was. It
Speaker 1: was almost like little cottages that were two motel rooms
Speaker 1: in a building and then there would be space between
Speaker 1: him and then another one that had two rooms. And
Speaker 1: it was one of those kind of places, not like
Speaker 1: the motel eight, which is just one giant room. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a town that size is not going to have
Speaker 1: a big no no, but just I think room eight
Speaker 1: was literally the last room. I think there were eight rooms. Um,
Speaker 1: So what happened is he got put in room eight,
Speaker 1: and then he came back a couple hours later to
Speaker 1: the front desk and said, you know that trailer park
Speaker 1: that's right next door. It's it's too loud. I'm having
Speaker 1: a hard time getting settled. Can I change rooms? And
Speaker 1: she said, She said that when he had first checked in,
Speaker 1: he just seemed, you know, nice um, But when he
Speaker 1: came back this second time, he made her feel uncomfortable
Speaker 1: and he seemed kind of like he was spaced out.
Speaker 1: But she said, okay, did you do anything in that
Speaker 1: room him? I think she probably thought maybe he was
Speaker 1: doing drugs or something, you know, she said, did you
Speaker 1: do anything that room? He said, well, I just messed
Speaker 1: with the pillows a little bit. And she explicitly apparently
Speaker 1: said did you take a shower? And he said no,
Speaker 1: and she said all right, and put him in room five,
Speaker 1: and that's where he stayed for all three nights. It
Speaker 1: did turn out that he had actually taken a shower
Speaker 1: in room eight. So I don't know what's up with that, Why,
Speaker 1: why she was concerned about it. You would have had
Speaker 1: to change out all I don't know why, right, yes,
Speaker 1: but I don't totally understand why he lied about it
Speaker 1: or why that. I mean, I guess he could have
Speaker 1: been motivation is to change rooms. He's going to appease
Speaker 1: her and tell her he did nothing, no matter what
Speaker 1: he actually did. Fair enough, Yeah, but just like a
Speaker 1: little good I guess it's dumb. Yeah. And as mentioned
Speaker 1: the reason that the clerk let him check in without
Speaker 1: I D, I guess, you know, again, small town, they're
Speaker 1: a little more lenient, So she did let him check
Speaker 1: in without I D. But she said that she let
Speaker 1: him check in without idea because he seemed like a
Speaker 1: nice guy, seemed like an okay Yeah, and then you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of hours later she was describing him as
Speaker 1: kind of off and making her uncomfortable. So I really know.
Speaker 1: She said that she thought that he might have had
Speaker 1: a slight Canadian accent, But I also think that that
Speaker 1: could mean a lot of different things. Again, especially since
Speaker 1: it's such a small place and it is more north,
Speaker 1: it's so totally possible that she just, you know, any
Speaker 1: accents out kind of Canadian to her. You know, there's
Speaker 1: certainly there's a whole host of accents that if you're
Speaker 1: not really paying attention and they're very subtle. People can
Speaker 1: incorrectly apply them to another nationality. He probably just mispronounced
Speaker 1: a word or two and she thought, well, it's I mean,
Speaker 1: that's so close to Canada there, you gotta get lots
Speaker 1: of Canadians there, and she's probably just saw maybe a
Speaker 1: Canadian by mispronouncing, saying Canadians mispronounced. But they say things like,
Speaker 1: you know, a boat instead of about and things like that.
Speaker 1: You know, after that first day, the next day, Friday, no,
Speaker 1: we didn't right that. It was a pretty uneventful day.
Speaker 1: I've seen reports that Lyle was seen pacing up and
Speaker 1: down the highway, but I think that that by the
Speaker 1: side of the highway. I well, yeah, the side of
Speaker 1: the highway. But I actually think that that's a misunderstanding
Speaker 1: of what actually was happening, which was that hotel staff
Speaker 1: reported that he was seen walking up and down hallways
Speaker 1: in like in the motel area. Halways they're little bungalows.
Speaker 1: There's you could call it a hallway between things. Okay,
Speaker 1: I would I would not call that a hallway. But
Speaker 1: I also think that if he was walking into the town,
Speaker 1: the only way to get to town is to walk
Speaker 1: down the side of the highway, So I think that's
Speaker 1: where that came from. I just I read an interview
Speaker 1: will that we'll talk about a little later with the
Speaker 1: woman who's the daughter of the maid that found Lyle,
Speaker 1: and she had one of the things she said is
Speaker 1: that she had seen him pacing up and down the hallway,
Speaker 1: is what she called it. So I don't know at
Speaker 1: the time. I mean, the guy had no reading with
Speaker 1: serial in this room. Well he did, he had the newspapers, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean other than that though, And you know,
Speaker 1: and he was pacing up and down the side the highway.
Speaker 1: Maybe he was waiting for the bus, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: or something like that. On the sixteenth, Again, not really
Speaker 1: totally clear what happened. There are some discrepancies in reporting
Speaker 1: he was His body was found on the seventeen. They
Speaker 1: believe he hung himself either really late on the night
Speaker 1: of the sixteen or maybe really early the seventeenth, but
Speaker 1: probably Sunday night. Yeah, it's hard to say, and that
Speaker 1: it depending on who is telling this in written form
Speaker 1: on the internet. It can make it very very confusing.
Speaker 1: When I first read your stuff, it's like that the
Speaker 1: days are totally off because I had just gotten finished
Speaker 1: reading one that I realized had totally bungled the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a kind of weird time frame because
Speaker 1: I think people want to truncate it a lot because
Speaker 1: there's no information on those two days. But tween people
Speaker 1: are just like, he checked in and then he died,
Speaker 1: but there's two days something. One of the things that
Speaker 1: I haven't seen anything about is what did he do
Speaker 1: for food the entire time? Did anybody check the local
Speaker 1: store to see if you wanted and bought like doughnuts
Speaker 1: and milk? Yeah. Well, one of the things somebody brought up,
Speaker 1: which I think is actually probably a pretty good theory,
Speaker 1: is there was a barber in town and maybe he
Speaker 1: went in for a haircut in a shave because he
Speaker 1: was clean shaven and his hair was but he had
Speaker 1: no rasor. Again, this is this is a little car
Speaker 1: before the horse. So, as I mentioned, you may have
Speaker 1: missed it. He did ultimately end up hanging himself, but
Speaker 1: it was his method of suicide. He had hung himself
Speaker 1: with his belt and a green There was a green
Speaker 1: washcloth between his neck and the belt. There are some
Speaker 1: not safe for life photos on the internet. They're super
Speaker 1: easy to find, and the thing that's very weird about
Speaker 1: these photos is they are like disturbingly not to sturbing
Speaker 1: to look at. Did you guys look at that kind
Speaker 1: of placid? Yeah, they're very calm. There's no violence. It's
Speaker 1: just and you know, it's it's I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: something with the tone of the pictures, like the actual
Speaker 1: color tone of the pictures or something, but it's just
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, that's interesting, not like, oh God,
Speaker 1: that's a dead human hanging there, but it is a
Speaker 1: dead human hanging there. Yeah, that's the whole thing. It's like,
Speaker 1: there's this there's this guyline there, and didn't you realize
Speaker 1: the poor guy is dead? That sucks. It just looks
Speaker 1: like sleeping, like kind of like that Mary Anderson, right,
Speaker 1: she just looked like she was sleeping. So, as mentioned,
Speaker 1: he hung himself with his belt. The there was that
Speaker 1: washcloth in between the belt and the green net, the
Speaker 1: green wash cloth. The buckle was facing his chin, and
Speaker 1: he tied the other end of the belt around the
Speaker 1: metal pole. And they call it an alcove in the
Speaker 1: motel room. It's the closet. It's like a closet with
Speaker 1: no doors and the metal pole is it's one of
Speaker 1: those metal actually see in hotels that you're supposed to
Speaker 1: set your suitcase on, but it's and it's above head high,
Speaker 1: head high. Yeah, this one is higher than they normal
Speaker 1: you normally see them in a hotel. Well, now see,
Speaker 1: I've seen this before. So what you're thinking of is
Speaker 1: those little foldable ones that are that you would set
Speaker 1: your suitcase on. I think now this, I've seen this
Speaker 1: kind before, and they're usually at about eye levels so
Speaker 1: that they can be used to you know, with the
Speaker 1: hanger shirts and hang your shirts and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But then it's also got the platform on top and
Speaker 1: they intend for you to put your bag up there
Speaker 1: rather than the little folding one. But I've seen these
Speaker 1: a whole bunch. Yeah. They also sometimes store extra pillows
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, or the iron if they provide
Speaker 1: an iron. Yeah, they always provide an iron. If they
Speaker 1: provide an iron, always provide. I always make them take
Speaker 1: it away. I can only hurt myself with this thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he he was not hanging off the ground. He
Speaker 1: was kind of a like a kneeling he he was
Speaker 1: very committed to this act. Yes, and he was facing
Speaker 1: the back of the wall, so he was taking into
Speaker 1: the alcove. His head was tilted up towards the sky
Speaker 1: or so it's the ceiling um, and he had hung
Speaker 1: pillows on either side of the little alcove that he
Speaker 1: was in, presumably to avoid making noise, because do you
Speaker 1: automatically are going to thrash when you really did not
Speaker 1: look like he thrashed. I mean, he probably did, I mean,
Speaker 1: just because he hung pillows and they absorbed the blows.
Speaker 1: But I mean, it doesn't look to me like he
Speaker 1: did either, because what he did is by hanging, he
Speaker 1: stuffed the pillows between the side the side and the
Speaker 1: size of that metal thing in the wall, just stuffed
Speaker 1: them in there very tidily and nicely. And if he thrashed,
Speaker 1: I would think they would have been knocked askew a
Speaker 1: little bit, but they're perfectly perfectly aligned with each other,
Speaker 1: and so who knows. It doesn't really matter yet, But
Speaker 1: the fact is if he if he did thrash, nobody
Speaker 1: heard of anyway. The weird thing, though, is that because
Speaker 1: that shelf was so low, his knees were barely off
Speaker 1: the ground. That's that's why I say that he was
Speaker 1: so very committed to keep doing what he was doing.
Speaker 1: He could have very easily just stood up or even
Speaker 1: like I mean like literally any almost any movement would
Speaker 1: have probably stopped the process from him. So I think
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that does strike a lot
Speaker 1: of people about this case is that he Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of things about it. I
Speaker 1: mean there's a lot of example, like you said he
Speaker 1: was like he said he was, he was clean shaven,
Speaker 1: going to kill yourself? Why bother shaving? He was clean shaven,
Speaker 1: and but he didn't have a razor, But why why
Speaker 1: bother going into the barber to get a shave? And
Speaker 1: that's you know, you know, it's weird. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of weird things about this. Pacing by the highway makes
Speaker 1: me wonder. So since he was recently deceased, it was
Speaker 1: easy to get his fingerprints, his dental records, and his DNA.
Speaker 1: The d N A I will say I have I
Speaker 1: know is saliva DNA. So they can't send it for
Speaker 1: a lot of the DNA testing that they would otherwise
Speaker 1: be able to end it for for science reasons. I
Speaker 1: don't understand the science mind it, but they're science reason,
Speaker 1: I think, I think, yeah, but I think they have
Speaker 1: some way it doesn't matter anyway. They can't. They can't
Speaker 1: do the um what was it, the mitochondrial DNA. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe that's the one where they can trace the family tree. Yah,
Speaker 1: they can't do that one. They can't. Why not because
Speaker 1: I don't know reason, But I thought they did because
Speaker 1: that's how you did it when it's like the twenty
Speaker 1: three and me, when you like send in your DNA
Speaker 1: for like your genetic analysis. So I don't really understand why.
Speaker 1: I have just seen from the you know, the people
Speaker 1: who have been really really committed to this case online,
Speaker 1: reading through their kind of conversations, seeing that yes, we
Speaker 1: we wanted to send it, but you know, the saliva DNA.
Speaker 1: For whatever reason, the saliva DNA we have, we need
Speaker 1: something to test it against. We can't just by you
Speaker 1: know what. That's another thing that makes me wonder about
Speaker 1: this one is why nobody has just done a general
Speaker 1: test to see was what his ethnicity is? Well, so
Speaker 1: that one's a bit question about it. That is actually
Speaker 1: a bit of um A thing. Yeah, I I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think that there is actual lack of consensus.
Speaker 1: They think that the actual investigators are pretty agreed on
Speaker 1: what his ethnicity is but yeah, the internet, Who's just
Speaker 1: like but I don't know, he looks kind of like
Speaker 1: he might be this, which is true. I mean he
Speaker 1: does look you could kind of just put him in
Speaker 1: a lot of different ethnicity. He could be Hispanic, he
Speaker 1: could be American, Indian, he could be Arabs. There's a
Speaker 1: lot a lot of different we'll talk about all of that.
Speaker 1: A full isotope report is available online. It's twenty nine
Speaker 1: pages long. We'll talk about some of that a little bit,
Speaker 1: but we're not going to go too far into that.
Speaker 1: So if that's the sort of thing that does interest you,
Speaker 1: you should look at that. Super easy to find. But
Speaker 1: I want to keep talking about Lyles, the room and
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. Lyle was found by the maid
Speaker 1: she had. She knocked on the door to try to
Speaker 1: clean the room, and she said that when she went
Speaker 1: in the first time, she thought he was praying in
Speaker 1: the alcove. She just kind of saw his knees and
Speaker 1: saw him. You know, she does what every maid does
Speaker 1: when they opened the room and they see that somebody
Speaker 1: is there and probably doing something that they don't want
Speaker 1: to be observed. She went closes the door quietly and
Speaker 1: goes on about her business. She's probably that auto urotic
Speaker 1: that thing. No, I think she probably just like saw
Speaker 1: his feet and was like, okay, whoops, sorry, you know, sorry, sir,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll come back later. Later. She came back
Speaker 1: with a manager and they called the cops when they
Speaker 1: realized what had happened. And yeah, the manager is the
Speaker 1: one that went in and realized what was going on. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: he had left a hundred and sixty dollars exactly in
Speaker 1: twenty dollar bills and a note saying for the room,
Speaker 1: because you remember, he'd only paid for that first night.
Speaker 1: Hundred sixty dollars happens to be exactly what he owed
Speaker 1: for the other two nights. It looks like I've heard
Speaker 1: it said on the on the inter website, they were
Speaker 1: very crisp, brand new twenty dollar bills. They looked pretty crisp,
Speaker 1: and they look at the pictures, they look pretty crisp. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's what I want to know is are they truly authentically,
Speaker 1: you know, really super new crisp twenty dollar bills. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, Joe.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I know it's crazy. Those are the sort
Speaker 1: of things that would be like really nice to know,
Speaker 1: but I don't think people really ask that question a lot.
Speaker 1: He had eight additional dollar bills crumpled in his pocket
Speaker 1: and a pen. There was some change. I can't remember
Speaker 1: how much exactly. They actually books six no buck seventy
Speaker 1: five something in like loose change like dimes and nickels
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And by the way, in the
Speaker 1: picture that you see that the coins have been like arranged,
Speaker 1: they've been sorted out. That was and did you say
Speaker 1: that was done by the one of the policemen to
Speaker 1: count them. Yeah, what I said was, there's in some
Speaker 1: of the pictures you can also see a little piece
Speaker 1: of paper with columns um and like tally marks that
Speaker 1: you know, look like, oh, somebody was tallying up how
Speaker 1: much money they had. It was the detective somebody. Literally,
Speaker 1: it wasn't some weird thing that was left in the room.
Speaker 1: It was just the the investigators were counting the change. Um.
Speaker 1: And that's how they were keeping track of it, because
Speaker 1: it was like it was kind of a lot of change.
Speaker 1: It wasn't. I don't I don't know how many quarters.
Speaker 1: I don't remember. I'm so sorry. Um didn't look like
Speaker 1: a couple of quarters, yeah, but most of it was
Speaker 1: like dimes and nickels. I feel, but who automatically pulls
Speaker 1: bills out to pay for stuff and doesn't try to
Speaker 1: use it. Well, it was like that. It very quickly
Speaker 1: adds up totally. But it was more that like it
Speaker 1: wasn't as though you could just be like, well, there's
Speaker 1: five quarters, so it's you know in there. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's It's pretty sweet that he still paid
Speaker 1: his bill and kind of speaks to his character. Probably
Speaker 1: maybe the only other things as mentioned in the room
Speaker 1: that didn't really belong there were the toothbrush and toothpaste.
Speaker 1: There was also an empty pepsi cup and two copies
Speaker 1: of the Sunday newspaper, the local Sunday newspaper from the
Speaker 1: day before, the Daily World from Aberdeen. Yeah, then they
Speaker 1: don't have an online archive. I wanted to see what
Speaker 1: that that issue covered, probably not eleven yeah right, yeah,
Speaker 1: but one of the copies of the Sunday paper was
Speaker 1: in the trash with the pepsi cup and a crumpled
Speaker 1: piece of paper that just said suicide on it, and
Speaker 1: the other copy was out. Um, so I don't know
Speaker 1: why he had two copies, but there you go. Probably
Speaker 1: got it out of the machine and you can always
Speaker 1: take more than one if you want. Yeah, it's true,
Speaker 1: but he seemed like a pretty honest guy. I mean,
Speaker 1: he left money for the hotel room. So anyway, maybe
Speaker 1: he was going to commit the originally suicide by newspaper
Speaker 1: and change his mind just paper cuts or something. He
Speaker 1: had spoken to the maid on Sunday night, um, just
Speaker 1: before his suicide, and he had made it clear that
Speaker 1: he did not need cleaning services, but he did ask
Speaker 1: for a fresh towel, and he also handed the trash
Speaker 1: out to her in the hall. He arrived on Friday. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he hung out on Saturday. His body was found on Sunday, Monday, Monday, Monday, okay, Monday.
Speaker 1: That's again. I know, people, there's the two days that
Speaker 1: are like count because people, when I see the reporting,
Speaker 1: it's so truncated. Probably probably killed himself Sunday night. But
Speaker 1: now and yeah, he killed himself Sunday night. He was
Speaker 1: found Monday. Okay. And again back to the maid's daughter
Speaker 1: who posts stuff on that Facebook page devoted to this
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about, do? Yeah? Apparently it
Speaker 1: was during this exchange that she says her mother heard
Speaker 1: another voice in the room. Yeah, we're gonna talk about that. Okay, Sorry,
Speaker 1: I keep stepping all over it. That's okay, No, it's fine.
Speaker 1: But yeah, she there's a bit of intrigue there to
Speaker 1: be continued. She did say that, but I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: but he did. She did take the trash out that night,
Speaker 1: so that was new trash as of Sunday evening. Um,
Speaker 1: just you know again, if that means anything to anyone, Lyle,
Speaker 1: you know, since he hadn't give an idea or anything
Speaker 1: like that, but you do have to give an address
Speaker 1: home address for your hotel rooms day. So he gave
Speaker 1: the address of one zero one nine South Progress Avenue
Speaker 1: in Meridian, Ohio, Idaho, Ida, Idaho. I like Ohio better
Speaker 1: right next door to each other practically. So the local investigator, sorry,
Speaker 1: did you have something to say about If you look
Speaker 1: at the note too, he actually didn't put Meridian, Idaho.
Speaker 1: Is somebody else wrote that in Meridian, Idaho? Yeah, if
Speaker 1: you look at it, if you look at them where
Speaker 1: he wrote it down, it's not his handwriting. We can
Speaker 1: talk about the handwriting in a little bit. His handwriting
Speaker 1: is not consistent, but the suspicion is that it's because
Speaker 1: he was faking his handwriting. I mean he wrote in
Speaker 1: those big block letters, which is like totally in line
Speaker 1: with what people do when they're trying to miss um
Speaker 1: mask their hand writing. But yeah, we can talk about
Speaker 1: that in a little bit. That the local investigators did,
Speaker 1: of course reach out to police in Meridian. They said, hey,
Speaker 1: we found a body. Guy said this is his address,
Speaker 1: can you go check it out? And it turned out
Speaker 1: that it was either a Ramada in or a holiday in,
Speaker 1: depending on the reporting. I didn't bother to google it.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's probably hotels, changed names, change hands. It
Speaker 1: looks like your standard you know, days in Ramadi and
Speaker 1: kind of place, you know, kind of you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: a little better than than a scuzzy motel, but not
Speaker 1: exactly you know, the highest regency either in between. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's right up kind of on a park. You know. Um,
Speaker 1: there goes advertising for so um. The investigators had sent
Speaker 1: over some some photos of Lysle to the police and Meridian,
Speaker 1: and you know, the police and Meridian showed it to
Speaker 1: the staff at the hotel there and they didn't recognize
Speaker 1: him at all, which either means you know, he never
Speaker 1: stayed there or something else entirely, which you know, you know,
Speaker 1: although I think I think they kind of, like, um,
Speaker 1: kind of fell down. I mean, the local investigators are
Speaker 1: somebody kind of fell down the job there, because right
Speaker 1: across the street there's like a home depot in a Walmart.
Speaker 1: It probably should have walked over there and showed his
Speaker 1: picture around to saying, you know, this guy shop here,
Speaker 1: does you work here? Do that? As far as I know,
Speaker 1: that's I think that's probably true. They probably should. I
Speaker 1: don't know if they fell down on the job, Joe.
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's you saying, oh, I see this thing.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting they should do that. Where their
Speaker 1: job is go to this place, ask these questions. I
Speaker 1: have a whole bunch of stuff to do besides this
Speaker 1: cold case from another town. I don't have any involvement with.
Speaker 1: That's the thing is, of course, obviously nobody it's time
Speaker 1: knew that this is going to turn into a big
Speaker 1: obsession for a bunch of people on the internet. Nobody
Speaker 1: knew that at the time. Just one of those things
Speaker 1: like in retrospect, it would have been kayak cool if
Speaker 1: they checked out this and this and this. You know,
Speaker 1: but nobody knew. And then again, this is a week
Speaker 1: after nine eleven. Most of the country was not operating
Speaker 1: on all cylinders, but we're still operating in kind of
Speaker 1: a fog. Yeah. So, um a physical description of Lyle
Speaker 1: because he was measured quote unquote measured at six foot tall.
Speaker 1: Most of the reporting you will see says that he
Speaker 1: was anywhere between five ten and six two. I don't
Speaker 1: totally understand like they had his body, like totally understand
Speaker 1: why you didn't wouldn't know how tall a human was
Speaker 1: from there laying down position. But that's you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. I see where if you have a body
Speaker 1: that's several years old, where you know it's maybe shriveled
Speaker 1: a bit and you can't really tell for share or
Speaker 1: there's some trauma that's been done to it like that,
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I get but yeah, they had a complete body.
Speaker 1: I don't get it either. The investigator said that he
Speaker 1: thought that Lyle was five, but the official age range
Speaker 1: given is twenty to thirty. He had straight black hair that,
Speaker 1: as mentioned, was neatly trimmed and little to no stubble.
Speaker 1: I've seen some discrepancy on this as well. I've seen
Speaker 1: either he had zero stubble. Definitely no stubble at all.
Speaker 1: But I've also seen that he had maybe a day's
Speaker 1: worth of stubble. Again, i mean, you know, for a
Speaker 1: lot of guys, especially at the mid twenty range, like
Speaker 1: a day's growth isn't really much to sneeze at. But
Speaker 1: he did have definitely, he did definitely have a stubble. Yeah, well, no,
Speaker 1: he did not. Definitely didn't have a full on stubble.
Speaker 1: He didn't have what you and I would call five
Speaker 1: o'clock shadow. He didn't have that. He might have had
Speaker 1: a little bit of hair there, but it wasn't anything outstanding.
Speaker 1: It was, you know, the same way that a teenager
Speaker 1: grows a beard, the whiskey mustache. Yeah. Um, but again,
Speaker 1: as mentioned, we're going to keep saying it's a little
Speaker 1: weird because there was no razor in his room. Um,
Speaker 1: but he was in that room for three days, so
Speaker 1: his eyes were hazel. As mentioned, his ethnicity is on
Speaker 1: the internet up for grabs. He's officially listed as white. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's that speculation the you know, he's Hispanic, Native American,
Speaker 1: Missile American, Middle Eastern Italian or even from Norway. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure about the Norwegian one. The only the only
Speaker 1: connection I can find in Norway is I went to
Speaker 1: Google Maps and typed in Stivac, there's there's a Norway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the only reason I can think. Yes, that is
Speaker 1: why people think that Officially, like I said, he is
Speaker 1: listed as white. Um, there has been some official investigation
Speaker 1: into Native American communities as well. I presume since they
Speaker 1: have his DNA they've done some kind of genetic marker
Speaker 1: text test, because they keep saying they can't do certain
Speaker 1: tests because they only had the saliva DNA. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: they don't understand that you've got a whole frigging body
Speaker 1: to work with, You've got all kinds of bodily. I
Speaker 1: don't think they have a body anymore until after the fact.
Speaker 1: I don't think they really pursued the whole what is
Speaker 1: his ethnicity until he was in the ground. But I
Speaker 1: thought that they took tissue samples and blood samples and
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff from his body to say, just
Speaker 1: just for later purposes. I thought they would have done
Speaker 1: that as well. But like I said, I've read but
Speaker 1: I get you know again, it's all it's all internet reporting,
Speaker 1: so it could be totally wrong, but since it's an
Speaker 1: ongoing investigation still, like we don't probably have all the
Speaker 1: information that we could use, you know. So I do
Speaker 1: believe that there's some Native American connection, but I think
Speaker 1: he's you know, like white slash Native American. It's super distant, yea.
Speaker 1: So he also had some semi distinguishing features, like his nose. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it did look like it may have been broken.
Speaker 1: The m e. S Report didn't mention that it had
Speaker 1: signs of actually being broken, and so I actually think
Speaker 1: that that it's a distortion from him hanging himself that
Speaker 1: happened on the on his nose instead of it actually
Speaker 1: having been broken like not recently he you know, but
Speaker 1: that it was like a broken and heeled situation because
Speaker 1: usually there's scars and stuff. But I don't know. Again,
Speaker 1: he also had attached ear lobes, which is apparently like
Speaker 1: a thing that only six of the population has and
Speaker 1: it's like genetic. So again that should be another little
Speaker 1: thing to help narrow down, but it seems to not
Speaker 1: really be working. He had they just call him marks
Speaker 1: on his knuckles. Officially, they're like Russell's signs, which are
Speaker 1: callouses on your knuckles. Most often associated with long term bolima,
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that in a little bit, thank you.
Speaker 1: Um he had perfect or near perfect teeth with signs,
Speaker 1: the kind of perfect teeth you get only from or Theodancia,
Speaker 1: not like nobody. Yeah. He also had a quote unquote
Speaker 1: not recent appendectomy scar. Yeah it wasn't pink still. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, at least a couple of years old,
Speaker 1: I think faded. He was wearing a blue plaid shirt,
Speaker 1: a genuine leather brown belt with a big silver buckle.
Speaker 1: While he was he was wearing it in the wrong spot.
Speaker 1: But uh, and the buckle was kind of a big
Speaker 1: Western buckle. Was it the Western style buckle? I it
Speaker 1: doesn't look like it looked like the kind that which
Speaker 1: is just a metal loop. I think that is the
Speaker 1: Western style buckle. I think the big old rodeo cowbody. Yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why I was asking about the style, just like
Speaker 1: a not European style. What's the European style? The narrow
Speaker 1: you know? I think that I think that those is
Speaker 1: you know, those square ones that are like just like
Speaker 1: a panel and they have like the hook and the
Speaker 1: back and it just clicks in. That's what I think
Speaker 1: of I don't know, could be that up. That's what
Speaker 1: I've got. Yeah, and then that got the is the
Speaker 1: weirdest episode ever. We're all pulling our belts out. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so it was a loop. Okay, it was a loop
Speaker 1: type buckle. It's my understanding that the belt showed signs
Speaker 1: of significant weight loss, which makes sense on some things
Speaker 1: that we'll talk about later. Again. Yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: he had changed changed holes. Yeah, that there was significant
Speaker 1: wear on like two different holes that weren't just right
Speaker 1: next to each other. That or he got the bell secondhand.
Speaker 1: But hey, well the emmy said, and granted, all of
Speaker 1: the clothes that he was wearing were like his pants
Speaker 1: were like a little baggy on him. The emmy said
Speaker 1: that he showed signs of having lost about forty pounds recently.
Speaker 1: Maybe are the Yeah, I mean he's wearing a size
Speaker 1: thirty six jeans and the guy was six too, with
Speaker 1: a hundred forty pounds, which is pretty damn skinny, and
Speaker 1: I can't see fitting into size thirty six jeans. He's
Speaker 1: that's more like what's thirty two waste? We had dundsounds, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's like, yeah, so I would have been
Speaker 1: really baggy, yeah, which is why he had a belt, right, yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: thinking about how much I weighed what I wear that
Speaker 1: that is super balloon pants. Yeah. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: he might have just bought had a local good will
Speaker 1: somewhere in Port Angeles, and you know, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I think the Emmy had evidence other than just
Speaker 1: the baggy pants to suggest that he had lost the
Speaker 1: forty pounds recently. It's might understand. Yeah, I think there
Speaker 1: was some like Loue skin situation happening. Um, So he
Speaker 1: was wearing blue jeans as mentioned, and then he had
Speaker 1: black leather Timberland boots which were in like pretty good condition.
Speaker 1: The jeans were Levies, the boots were Timberland. You know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like nicer but not luxury brand. Timberland
Speaker 1: boots are pretty dang expensive though, or can be. I
Speaker 1: was actually I actually looked into this little bit trying
Speaker 1: to figure it out, and Timberland's began. Timberland the company
Speaker 1: got bought by somebody several times and began to add
Speaker 1: apparel other than boots to their catalog in the mid
Speaker 1: to late nineties and that and then and then they
Speaker 1: started adding more apparel in the mid two thousand's, and
Speaker 1: that's really I think when their cost started escalating. So
Speaker 1: I don't think they were super expensive at this time.
Speaker 1: I think that they were mid grade in terms of costs.
Speaker 1: They weren't low end, but they definitely weren't what you
Speaker 1: would see now when you see the you know, some
Speaker 1: guy on stage at a show performing and he's paid
Speaker 1: a thousand dollars for these Timberlands, I'm sure that they
Speaker 1: will bedazzle them with diamonds for you and sell them
Speaker 1: to you as for as much as they can. I
Speaker 1: think you asked Timberland's were like a good buck fifty
Speaker 1: or so. At least that's not cheap cheap, But that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that he bought the high end boot all.
Speaker 1: Remember that everybody makes an expensive model at a cheap model,
Speaker 1: and there's going to be arranged there. Yeah. Anyway, Um,
Speaker 1: at some point he had also taken one of a
Speaker 1: bed spread and put it up over the window to
Speaker 1: block out the light or noise or noise. Yeah, as
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, there's that full isotope review that kind
Speaker 1: of maps his movements where could have been kind of
Speaker 1: things like minerals and stuff in his skin and hair,
Speaker 1: which is like creepy and useful and like a soapbox.
Speaker 1: About this thing for a second, because it it bugs
Speaker 1: the heck out of me. Because we talked about some
Speaker 1: kind of isotope review in what was the Princess Dough.
Speaker 1: We talked about that and they had actually been able
Speaker 1: to narrow it down to very specific sites. In this
Speaker 1: there's nothing very specific. I mean, when you read this
Speaker 1: report and you start looking at the maps, it looks
Speaker 1: like if you were watching the National News and Al
Speaker 1: Roker or Willard Scott we're on there showing you the
Speaker 1: temperature bands across the country. That's how specific his map is,
Speaker 1: Like this band reaches from the east coast to the
Speaker 1: west coast and does this kind of serpentine curve. And
Speaker 1: that's as specific as they're said. They're what what's interesting
Speaker 1: is that if you look at that and and they
Speaker 1: map it by by different minerals and and so if
Speaker 1: you look at the differences between it, you can see space,
Speaker 1: and you can see that there are certain places that
Speaker 1: are a lot more specific. But it's that that doesn't
Speaker 1: pin anything down. And that's that's my problem with well,
Speaker 1: I have a big problem with this methodology too, which
Speaker 1: is that it only maps uh, basically North America essentially,
Speaker 1: and it should be mapping the entire world. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're assuming the guy comes from North America. The guy
Speaker 1: might have lived in Asia, Africa, god knows where his
Speaker 1: entire life and only come here race And so it
Speaker 1: makes it look like, wow, he came from this this
Speaker 1: this narrow sort of geographical area in North America. But
Speaker 1: there's you know, I don't think that's that's at all proven. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would agree with that. The one thing I will
Speaker 1: say is that it's my understanding from that isotope review
Speaker 1: that it looks like he spent some time in Amanda Park,
Speaker 1: like a couple of months before he killed himself and
Speaker 1: then went away and then returned. And that's the other
Speaker 1: thing is like a haw could that be? So maybe
Speaker 1: this thing isn't that trustworthy after all. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: it could be he came in and like hit out
Speaker 1: in somebody's trailer for a couple of months. Maybe he
Speaker 1: was staying with somebody in that person. This is like
Speaker 1: this is a theories thing, right, but you know, maybe
Speaker 1: he was staying with somebody and that person died and
Speaker 1: he left and then came back to kill himself because
Speaker 1: that was the last person that he cared about, and
Speaker 1: those would have been the two people that knew him.
Speaker 1: You know, like there are reasons we can like theorize,
Speaker 1: just speculate wildly around why he could have been on
Speaker 1: identifying in the area. Yeah, irresponsibly. I just have two
Speaker 1: more quick notes before we get into theories. One is
Speaker 1: what we mentioned already with Joe, just kind of like
Speaker 1: giving us that nugget of um of the idea that
Speaker 1: Lyle may not have been alone on Sunday night in
Speaker 1: his room. Uh. The speculation coupled with him not allowing
Speaker 1: the maid to come in to clean Sunday night, the
Speaker 1: maid saying that he she thought that she heard maybe
Speaker 1: other voices in the room, and the fact that from
Speaker 1: the crime scene photos the toilet seat is down me
Speaker 1: finish makes people seats again, makes people believe that he
Speaker 1: that means that he was not alone, that he had
Speaker 1: a female visitor. That yeah, actually that's true. That no
Speaker 1: man ever shuts the toilet seat. That's not true. No
Speaker 1: man does that. That's absolutely not true. Listen, toilets are gross,
Speaker 1: and there's no reason that I need to be staring
Speaker 1: into that thing because I don't like to unsanitary close.
Speaker 1: I was tweaking Stevens. But I mean, like, that's part
Speaker 1: of it too, is that Lyle strikes me as a
Speaker 1: very clean person. In general, it's not unheard of for
Speaker 1: somebody to know. Actually it's not totally. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, it's it's it is not typical for a
Speaker 1: guy to do that. Yeah, I don't know, I just
Speaker 1: you know what, that's not true that it all depends
Speaker 1: on your personality and how you were raised. You know,
Speaker 1: there's this this whole thing every man stands when he peas,
Speaker 1: But that's not true. There's a chunk of society that
Speaker 1: where men sit down to urinate just like women because
Speaker 1: it's cleaner. Yeah, but every man does stand to wipe
Speaker 1: after they've pooped. You should google that. No, I shouldn't
Speaker 1: actually stand totally irrect and wipe. Yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of discussion on the internet about like this was a
Speaker 1: thing that I had no idea, but apparently suddenly I'm
Speaker 1: questioning mascul There are a lot of people who like
Speaker 1: stand up to wipe. I know, I agree, I started
Speaker 1: doing it wrong this time. I don't know. I'm sure
Speaker 1: we're gonna get some really great emails from people who
Speaker 1: are like, you're the barbarian. Yeah, I guess you also
Speaker 1: go from back to front. Anyway, So we've a little
Speaker 1: gotten a little off track here what should otherwise be
Speaker 1: a very serious episode. Um, I think it's silly to
Speaker 1: use the closed toilet seat as evidence that someone else
Speaker 1: was there. I also think it's a little silly to
Speaker 1: use his refusal to have the maid come in to
Speaker 1: clean the room as evidence that someone else was there
Speaker 1: the door before and said no, no, no, no, I'm fine. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: here here's the trash bag, like just off hanging out.
Speaker 1: I don't want you in. I don't need I don't
Speaker 1: need my had made and I can re use towels
Speaker 1: I took a shower with this morning, So yeah, what
Speaker 1: do I need you in here for? Well? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I mean there's also some speculation again we'll get to
Speaker 1: this in a little bit, but that um he had
Speaker 1: rehearsed his suicide because the technique that he used encouraged
Speaker 1: people to um rehearse it, and so it's possible he
Speaker 1: had all set up already and he was like, obviously
Speaker 1: I'm not going to like the maid in here to
Speaker 1: like see what's going on in here. So again to
Speaker 1: my critique, my form. You know, I spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time on that suicide forum and yeah, um so
Speaker 1: I don't really know about that, but you will see
Speaker 1: that around and I think that's as far as we're
Speaker 1: going to go into it. The other note that I
Speaker 1: will just briefly mentioned is that, as we said in
Speaker 1: the beginning, there is a character in a book called
Speaker 1: You Must Remember This named Lyle Stevic. It's spelled differently.
Speaker 1: The last name is you know, the last name is
Speaker 1: it's spelled with a c K and sent of just
Speaker 1: de kay. But this book is like a super depressing book.
Speaker 1: It's opens was an attempted suicide of Lyle Sevic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Lyle in this book tries to commit like at
Speaker 1: least contemplates committing suicide a number of times. And there's
Speaker 1: this weird relationship between his daughter and his half brother
Speaker 1: who's a famous boxer, and it's just this it's a
Speaker 1: really depressing thing. And so if somebody had read that
Speaker 1: book and was just looking for a pseudonym, picking that
Speaker 1: one makes some sense. That's a hell of a coincidence,
Speaker 1: though it would I mean it is and it isn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, we all have our favorite books, you know,
Speaker 1: and maybe it just happens that this was Lyle's favorite book. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll let that go. It's you actually as possible with
Speaker 1: the guy like took an English lit class in community
Speaker 1: college or something like that and they read that book.
Speaker 1: I was like, no, not, nobody's gonna let me sign
Speaker 1: in to a hotel using my favorite book character's name
Speaker 1: because they know that I am not curious George, I don't. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: that's my last note. Uh, do you have any other
Speaker 1: notes that you want to add before we start talking
Speaker 1: about theories. There is the anagram theory for his name,
Speaker 1: which I'll touch on briefly, which is like, you know,
Speaker 1: is that a theory? Uh? Some people have thought that
Speaker 1: it might be. And actually, I gotta tell you, before
Speaker 1: I heard of this theory, even I thought it was
Speaker 1: an anagram too. So I went out to the webs
Speaker 1: and found an anagram maker and typed his name in
Speaker 1: to see if I could find anything interesting. I couldn't. Yeah, so, well, so,
Speaker 1: since it is a theory, you want to save it
Speaker 1: for theories. Well, I guess, Well, it's not a theorious
Speaker 1: to who he is. That's just a theory as to like,
Speaker 1: you know, where the layout the name Lyle Stevic came from,
Speaker 1: which is okay, thank you, ma'am. And so there's there's
Speaker 1: there's something. There was apparently a now defunct website called
Speaker 1: I Guess Ashley's Um where people went out there to
Speaker 1: talk about suicide and it wasn't to discourage or get canceling.
Speaker 1: It was all like exchanging techniques and ideas and encouraging
Speaker 1: each other. And there was a guy called I think
Speaker 1: Steven or Stevie or so like that was it, Stephen
Speaker 1: Steven Steven who talked a lot about hanging himself kind
Speaker 1: of in a similar way to the way Lyle did.
Speaker 1: And then somebody, no, it's not similar, it's identical. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's identical, except apparently Stephen said that he would
Speaker 1: use a piece of plastic rope like like that that
Speaker 1: real skinny plastic disposal, Yeah, that kind of stuff. But
Speaker 1: other than that, it was the same thing down to
Speaker 1: the wash cloth. Yeah, and exactly even mentioned that, which
Speaker 1: is one of the things that one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that I said what I said, because one of the
Speaker 1: things he posted was he suggested to use that some
Speaker 1: of that that cheap that cheap stuff, like like the
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that they might use to wrap or
Speaker 1: tie up Christmas trees at home depot. And that's what
Speaker 1: maybe thinks the plasticine anywhere in hardware stores use it
Speaker 1: to tie stuff together exactly, But but has mentioned of
Speaker 1: home depot. Maybe think, ha, it's kind of too bad
Speaker 1: they didn't go check over at home Depot to see
Speaker 1: if maybe he worked over there. But but anyway, but
Speaker 1: it turns out that Lyle Stavic is an aogram of
Speaker 1: kills Stevie. Yeah, and so, but but again, you know,
Speaker 1: again this is sheer speculation. Uh, let's be honestly, It's
Speaker 1: not as if Stevie was the first person to ever
Speaker 1: contemplate or discuss committing suicide in that form. People have
Speaker 1: been doing it for thousands of years, and so it's
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not unheard of for somebody to do
Speaker 1: it in that fashion. Yeah. The reason that that Steven's
Speaker 1: technique even entered this story, I know there are some
Speaker 1: people online who take credit for it, but is the
Speaker 1: actual lead investigator on the case said that he was
Speaker 1: aware of Stevens technique in his initial report. And actually,
Speaker 1: this particular technique isn't unusual, as Steve says, as I've
Speaker 1: seen lots of other suicides. Not I mean not personally,
Speaker 1: but you know in my many, many investigations of the Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of people kill themselves this way, more than
Speaker 1: you would think. The first time I heard about one
Speaker 1: of these, I thought, wow, that's almost unbelieve, but well,
Speaker 1: somebody must have murdered him. But now, now, after after
Speaker 1: several years of this, I realized it's not at all
Speaker 1: in common. So that's it for the story. Um, we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about theories now. The first theory is
Speaker 1: that he was a foster care kid. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: possible that this one sense. That's why I put it first.
Speaker 1: I like to put my least plausible things first. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do the opposite thing that you do, Joe. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't think and this isn't to sound so you're
Speaker 1: thinking he was in foster care when he died, know
Speaker 1: that he grew up in foster care and that's and
Speaker 1: for some reason, that's why nobody recognized him. But I
Speaker 1: feel like more people would recognize him and he would
Speaker 1: probably have a case worker, and you would think that
Speaker 1: like some finger yeah exactly. Um So I don't I
Speaker 1: don't really like it. But somebody did you come up
Speaker 1: with this one or somebody else it was it's a
Speaker 1: dumb theory and this is this is gonna sound like
Speaker 1: a bash on the Foster system and it is not
Speaker 1: meant to. But the amount of dental work that he
Speaker 1: had had done would not have been cheap. And so
Speaker 1: it doesn't say it's not possible, but it it puts
Speaker 1: it right on the edge. I would say. The next
Speaker 1: theory is that he might have been where I guess
Speaker 1: the only theories we're talking about is like who wild
Speaker 1: might have been, right, because we there's not even worth
Speaker 1: speculation of like really why he killed himself, but we
Speaker 1: don't have a single shred of reason to be able
Speaker 1: to come up with that. Now. Yeah, but you know
Speaker 1: a little spattered in there, but um he really you
Speaker 1: got to know who he is to find out why
Speaker 1: he did it. Really. Um So, the second theory is
Speaker 1: that he could have been like a migrant worker or
Speaker 1: a farmer worker, or a logger, some sort of outdoor trade.
Speaker 1: I don't know why people think this. I think it's
Speaker 1: the like claid shirt. No, I know why people think this.
Speaker 1: It's because of the isotope stuff, where it shows that
Speaker 1: he moved moved across regions within the last year, and
Speaker 1: so the people are like, well, why would somebody have
Speaker 1: been traveling that much. They must have been traveling for
Speaker 1: some kind of employment. So that's where I know that's
Speaker 1: where the migrant one comes from. I'm sure it is
Speaker 1: to it. Also, you know, would if he were like
Speaker 1: here illegally or anything like that, that would help explain
Speaker 1: why Again, nobody really there's some renegade Canadian, some kind
Speaker 1: of renegade Canadian looking for work in America. It could explain,
Speaker 1: It could explain the weight it lost. The big problem
Speaker 1: with this one is that those are all outdoor professions.
Speaker 1: So there's all kinds of migrant work. Like okay um,
Speaker 1: when it's fishing season in Alaska, the canneries are chucked
Speaker 1: full of people working there and then the season ends.
Speaker 1: Those people are working in a building. There are certain
Speaker 1: agricultural things where you end up in the cold storage
Speaker 1: building sorting the pro you know, potatoes or some kind
Speaker 1: of product produce. I don't know. Not all things that
Speaker 1: are migrant jobs are in the out of doors. You
Speaker 1: can if you're lucky. Get the ones that are actually indoors.
Speaker 1: They tend to suck as much because it's cold instead
Speaker 1: of hot. Yeah, those buildings are usually not well heated. No,
Speaker 1: because they're meant to keep the whatever, the thing that
Speaker 1: they're harvesting or making is cool to its Yeah. It's
Speaker 1: not a good very good points. So, but the problem
Speaker 1: I have with this series it still doesn't explain what
Speaker 1: the hell happened to his luggage or stuff. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: and not at all. I don't think any of them
Speaker 1: do really, well, maybe one, but yeah, and it didn't
Speaker 1: look like from the shape of his hands. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you look at his hands, he doesn't look like
Speaker 1: a logger agricultural worker. Yeah, he doesn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of muscle mass on him. And really hands don't look
Speaker 1: rough at all. They don't look rough with the exception
Speaker 1: of the top callous is um. And he didn't have
Speaker 1: the you know, the other thing we point out is
Speaker 1: he didn't have any tan lines. So he spent the
Speaker 1: summers indoors probably you know, I don't know. Yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: there are some migrant worker jobs, and it would explain
Speaker 1: why he was coming south in September, But I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just I don't think this does. It doesn't seem
Speaker 1: right to me. For some reason, I give it more
Speaker 1: credence in foster care. Oh yeah, because foster care didn't
Speaker 1: explain anything. Yeah. Well, we're, you know, doing that thing
Speaker 1: where we're working from Devin's least to favorite theory. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: And you know the weight loss. I guess it could
Speaker 1: have been due to that, but most often it's kind
Speaker 1: of attributed to likely bulimia, but maybe just homelessness and poverty.
Speaker 1: Poverty to me sounds more like he may have been
Speaker 1: living high on the hog for a while and then
Speaker 1: been out of work and cutting back to save money. Mean,
Speaker 1: he could have, but he had a hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: bucks and he so he stayed at a hotel that
Speaker 1: was like nicer, right, I mean, it might have been
Speaker 1: his last hurrah, you know what I mean, the last
Speaker 1: couple of bucks. I'm gonna I'm gonna sleep comfortable for
Speaker 1: this next couple of days. I'm not going to be
Speaker 1: sleeping in an alleyway, yeah, I think. I Mean. The
Speaker 1: other problem I have is how clean and in what
Speaker 1: good condition his clothes and shoes were in. I had
Speaker 1: heard his clothes were very clean. They were like almost new. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were very well which again for a guy who's
Speaker 1: been on the road and homeless of stuff, that makes
Speaker 1: no sense. And there's no launderman as far as I
Speaker 1: know in a town of two fifty would there be
Speaker 1: a launderman. I mean probably there would have been a laundromat.
Speaker 1: But even then, I mean, it's just this general wear
Speaker 1: and tear that happens on clothes when you've been like,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of amusing them. And the weight loss.
Speaker 1: You know, if he's wearing pants that were too big,
Speaker 1: they were still like in good condition. And then the
Speaker 1: thing that always gets me is shoes, Like shoes get
Speaker 1: all scuffed up and stuff like that pretty quickly. But
Speaker 1: again they this all could have been stuff that he
Speaker 1: purchased second hand recently. If you again say the last rahs, like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna wear some nice clothes that
Speaker 1: are clean and not full of holes for a couple
Speaker 1: of days. I'm going to go to the good will,
Speaker 1: and holy crap, I struck gold and I found some
Speaker 1: Because you can, at least you used to be able to.
Speaker 1: Until Ebayers got onto a good will. You could go
Speaker 1: in there and find little you know, little gold mines.
Speaker 1: I mean I found lots of stuff that was new. Yeah,
Speaker 1: good will all the time for really dirt cheap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can find it. They're easy. Well, then, how do
Speaker 1: you explain the orthodon che I don't. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean he could have actually, he could have been
Speaker 1: raised and from come from a fairly prosperous background and
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, went out on his own. It's my understanding.
Speaker 1: The orthodontia was more recent. It wasn't like a teenager
Speaker 1: because here's the thing that happens with orthodontia. I don't.
Speaker 1: Did either of you have braces? Yeah, yeah you did so.
Speaker 1: I had. Um, I had braces for like seven years.
Speaker 1: It was a really long time. It probably wasn't actually
Speaker 1: seven years, but it felt like it. But my teeth,
Speaker 1: you know, I got my braces off somewhere in high school.
Speaker 1: And it's been a couple of years since high school
Speaker 1: and I um two just two or three. But my
Speaker 1: teeth they're resetting, right, they started moving back to not
Speaker 1: all the way right, because a lot of the work
Speaker 1: they did on my mouth was palette works. My mouth
Speaker 1: actually fits all my teeth. Um, But the kind of
Speaker 1: cosmetic work of making them be perfect has started to
Speaker 1: kind of go back. My teeth actually didn't stay precisely
Speaker 1: where they were exactly when the braces came off, right,
Speaker 1: And so I think they can tell by how perfect
Speaker 1: your teeth are, how you know how long you have
Speaker 1: not had braces. It seemed like it hadn't. Again, this
Speaker 1: is just like a nobody's ever come out and said, like,
Speaker 1: and he had orthodontial with it. I'm not gonna argue
Speaker 1: with it because but I don't know. I mean, it
Speaker 1: seemed to me as though it was more recent than
Speaker 1: like he had it as a teenager. And they set back.
Speaker 1: Another reason to suspect that he was not a migrant
Speaker 1: worker or homeless dude. Yeah, which which fits better with
Speaker 1: some of our later theories. Yeah, the next one funny pun.
Speaker 1: I know, again this doesn't explain a whole lot, but
Speaker 1: there is a theory that he was a m then
Speaker 1: a boxer or a boxer or an underground fighter. Um.
Speaker 1: This is mostly suggested because of those Russell signs on
Speaker 1: the in the cuts on his knuckles. Yeah. So they're,
Speaker 1: like I said, most often seen there, they're on specific knuckles.
Speaker 1: Usually they're on your pointer finger knuckles and your ring
Speaker 1: finger knuckles, and the way you get them. I'm so
Speaker 1: sorry to say this, but is Yeah, the reason that
Speaker 1: you get this is because when you are sticking your
Speaker 1: fingers down your throat, it's where your teeth hit to
Speaker 1: induce a gag reflex. Yeah, to induce the gag reflex
Speaker 1: to make yourself vomit. It's where your teeth hit your
Speaker 1: knuckles when your gag reflex kicks in um, and it
Speaker 1: will they will generally hit the same place the same time,
Speaker 1: over and over and over again. It will cause calluses
Speaker 1: and cuts to build up in the same spot on
Speaker 1: your knuckles. But there is some thing to suggest that
Speaker 1: you also get calluses like that if you're fighting or
Speaker 1: if you're doing certain kind of physical labor. He had.
Speaker 1: You know what's funny if you look at the photos,
Speaker 1: I can't remember which hand it is, that they specifically
Speaker 1: take the photo of it before and after the pointer
Speaker 1: finger knuckle. Yeah, they both had the marks on him, right,
Speaker 1: But if you look, he's also got scratches on his wrists. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're so I'm I'm not I'm not willing to totally
Speaker 1: get behind this because he's other. He's got other wounds well,
Speaker 1: but they're not necessarily from the same thing in the
Speaker 1: same activity though, But they're not necessarily from different things either,
Speaker 1: maybe not. I mean one of the things that one
Speaker 1: of the reasons I don't like the fighter one is
Speaker 1: that they're they're kind of on. If you make a
Speaker 1: fist and look down at a point, your fist forward,
Speaker 1: you know, So the forward part is what you would
Speaker 1: punch somebody with, right, and at the top of the
Speaker 1: hand that you're looking at is that's where the marks are,
Speaker 1: is on the top. They're on the back side of
Speaker 1: the yeah, they're Yeah, and so but if you're fighting,
Speaker 1: the part that gets the part that gets banged up
Speaker 1: is the front of the fist, which is not where
Speaker 1: these marks are. They're up and around and behind the knuckles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is why I'm not I'm not keen on the
Speaker 1: whole boxer kind of. I'm also not keen on it either,
Speaker 1: But I do not think that he saw a fight club. Yeah, sideways,
Speaker 1: what's the point of getting expressive worth of on ship
Speaker 1: you can think how to get your teeth on? Yeah, totally,
Speaker 1: I agree. Um, it's not there's no there's nothing good here.
Speaker 1: I wrote a bunch of other stuff in this theory,
Speaker 1: but it's just not it's not good, so it doesn't
Speaker 1: really matter. We's not going to talk about it. Another
Speaker 1: theory areas that he came to America as an unaccompanied
Speaker 1: miner from a foreign country. Maybe his parents like left
Speaker 1: the country and forgot to take him with. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: he sent him to this country and we're not able
Speaker 1: to join him or find him when they got here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because that does happen. Yeah, and you know, if he
Speaker 1: was really like twenty four at least, you know, then
Speaker 1: it's true he could have. That would have been a
Speaker 1: really good explanation of he came from a well off family,
Speaker 1: you know, got his braces off recently, they sent him
Speaker 1: over here. They were like, all right, go to America,
Speaker 1: we'll join you there, and then they lost touch somehow.
Speaker 1: Maybe the Civil War. Yeah, I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe it was I don't know. Maybe, I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: things do happen, I mean, and maybe it wasn't even
Speaker 1: a minor when he came here. Let's assuming assuming you
Speaker 1: came from say, you know, Mexico. Mexico just saw a
Speaker 1: couple of really stupendous earthquakes to imagine he comes up
Speaker 1: here looking for work, whatever his family gets killed, you know,
Speaker 1: in an earth conceivable. You know, the next couple of
Speaker 1: theories are all tied up around one theory, kind of
Speaker 1: the one central theme here. And it's because in America,
Speaker 1: we literally cannot ignore this. Here's like our little disclaimer is,
Speaker 1: this is not an episode about nine eleven, but let's
Speaker 1: talk about eleven. You know what, jet field does not
Speaker 1: melt steel beams. I mean, it's true, it's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Um again, I don't we don't want to get into
Speaker 1: any of that. But it is so close after nine eleven.
Speaker 1: That's why, so close. So actually this this particularly day
Speaker 1: that the day that he checked in, my mother was
Speaker 1: in Victoria, BC, on nine eleven. She had been as
Speaker 1: she went up there with like three of her high
Speaker 1: school friends and they all decided, just for fun, for
Speaker 1: old times sake, they all get together and go to
Speaker 1: Victoria for a weekend. And they were going to leave
Speaker 1: on on nine eleven, and guess what, they couldn't they
Speaker 1: close the border and my mom was stuck up there
Speaker 1: first for days. She probably she probably passed Lisle on
Speaker 1: the highway go in the other direction. Body who got
Speaker 1: stuck in California. Yeah, thing he flew down there for something,
Speaker 1: was gonna fly home. He had to he had to
Speaker 1: buy a car and drive home. Yeah, And that might
Speaker 1: be one of That's one of the things I wonder
Speaker 1: about a while, if if maybe he was kind of stuck,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean for for a few days, because
Speaker 1: I mean that's only fourteen is only three days after
Speaker 1: As far as I know, their traffic was down. Border
Speaker 1: crossings were all shut down. I mean yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it was full lockdown mood. It was. Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: like it was crazy. I mean, no air traffic. It
Speaker 1: was the weirdest thingy go outside, there'd be no The
Speaker 1: only plane you see in the sky would be a
Speaker 1: military fighter jet. Yeah. Yeah, it was remember it. It
Speaker 1: was a weird time. It was really weird. But here's
Speaker 1: some theories on why his suicide might have been attached
Speaker 1: to nine eleven in some way. Again, this ignores what
Speaker 1: we think we know about his ethnicity. Anyway, just four warning.
Speaker 1: There are some people who very irresponsibly suggest, I think
Speaker 1: very irresponsibly suggest that Lyle was of Middle Eastern descent
Speaker 1: and had helped plan the nine of eleven attacks. Why
Speaker 1: is that irresponsible though, because it's just playing straight up
Speaker 1: racist saying he must have been Middle Eastern and therefore,
Speaker 1: because he was from somewhere in that region world, he
Speaker 1: must have been involved because all Middle Easterners were involved.
Speaker 1: And I get that, I get the whole thing that
Speaker 1: and that, you know, but if you look at him,
Speaker 1: if you look at the take closely, and that's why
Speaker 1: I think they should look at his DNA and really
Speaker 1: try to understand was that this city is since it
Speaker 1: seems to me that Lyle is probably not from North
Speaker 1: America because you know, they Yeah, I think he's more
Speaker 1: from Europe. Yeah, I think, and he could be from
Speaker 1: the Middle East. And if you look at the pictures
Speaker 1: of the hijacker, he actually bears a pretty decent resemblance
Speaker 1: to Muhammadatta, who was the lead hijacker at nine eleven.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it was his brother or his cousin,
Speaker 1: but would be he could? I mean, if there is
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to support that speculation, yeah, it's all speculation,
Speaker 1: but there's there There are other things. I mean, the
Speaker 1: fact that he had absolutely no luggage, note that nobody
Speaker 1: knows exactly how he got there, why he was there,
Speaker 1: and one of the things that it really interests me
Speaker 1: is he got the paper, the local paper, the Sunday paper,
Speaker 1: And in fact, that might have been why he was
Speaker 1: pacing the highway on Saturday afternoon, just because it was
Speaker 1: a Sunday paper. Those usually get delivered on Saturday afternoon.
Speaker 1: He might have been waiting for the paper and maybe
Speaker 1: there was some sort of coded message in the personal
Speaker 1: ads and you know it was time to and it
Speaker 1: was basically pulling the plug on you lile, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll kill yourself or something because you know too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and again that's all that's all pure speculation on my part.
Speaker 1: But there's there's some strange stuff about that guy, like,
Speaker 1: for example, he had exactly enough money to pay his
Speaker 1: hotel bill, plus just like eight bucks left over and change,
Speaker 1: just enough money to pay his hotel bill. Some people
Speaker 1: expected NY used than a t M. There's an a
Speaker 1: t M or two in town. But of course if
Speaker 1: he did that, where the hell is his a t
Speaker 1: M card? And I don't even know if anybody if
Speaker 1: the local police check a t M activity to see
Speaker 1: if there had been any and and just look at
Speaker 1: the names, you know, who's who who go to the
Speaker 1: bank and see who was not a local that used
Speaker 1: as a t M that would be useful information. I don't.
Speaker 1: I had no idea if they did that or not. Obviously,
Speaker 1: getting rid of your a t M card, your wallet,
Speaker 1: your passport, all that stuff would be very very easy
Speaker 1: to do. And uh, you know, and so but sticking
Speaker 1: a purple bag and tossing the trash. Yeah, but but
Speaker 1: it is interesting to me that he had precisely enough
Speaker 1: money within a few bucks to cover his bill, which
Speaker 1: was nice of them, then not leave them, to not
Speaker 1: leave them holding the bag, and so again I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think this theory is completely racist and out landish.
Speaker 1: It's fairly unsupported. But then again, when you think about
Speaker 1: some of those things about the story, like I said,
Speaker 1: the total lack of any luggage, the fact that he
Speaker 1: had exactly enough money to cover that bill, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's some things about it that are really really interesting,
Speaker 1: and I really think they need to find out what
Speaker 1: part of the world he really came from. Although not
Speaker 1: to say that if he was ethnically an Arabic, he's
Speaker 1: not an American, of course he is, or it could
Speaker 1: be or Canadian or something. Yeah, I just don't. I
Speaker 1: don't like it. Well, I think I think that just
Speaker 1: because it happened around nineteen nine eleven, Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think that that necessarily tie it means anything, but based
Speaker 1: on some of the other weird hinky stuff that happened
Speaker 1: with this case, well maybe and and of course it
Speaker 1: could be coincidental. It could have been something totally unrelated
Speaker 1: tone eleven. But you know, he's still see a Russian
Speaker 1: spy and they and they give him the order to,
Speaker 1: you know, either either take out the president or kill yourself.
Speaker 1: He says, okay, were something I don't know, But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that there are more sympathetic reasons
Speaker 1: why he that are tied up with nine eleven, that
Speaker 1: he might have killed himself that don't end with him
Speaker 1: being a terrorist. Yeah. Yeah, Um. One of them would
Speaker 1: be that his family could have died in the nine
Speaker 1: eleven attack. That would also explain why nobody was able
Speaker 1: to say yeah, like, oh, that's because his his picture
Speaker 1: has been pretty wildly circulated, wildly widely circulated. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's again. It's it's like the Laurier caref. You know,
Speaker 1: it turns out that one was solved, But you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people looking at this picture and
Speaker 1: really nobody said, you know anything, So that could explain that.
Speaker 1: It could also explain, you know, maybe he did have
Speaker 1: some kind of familial connection to Amanda Park. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: forgot where we were at for a second. And you know,
Speaker 1: he and his entire family traveled over there, and then
Speaker 1: they all died in the nine eleven attack, and he
Speaker 1: made his way back, you know, slowly to where they
Speaker 1: were from, and you know, I don't know, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: they vacationed there when he was a kid. Yeah, wonderful
Speaker 1: family vacation. Yeah. Yeah. Um there's also a theory I
Speaker 1: don't like this one as much. Um that he was
Speaker 1: supposed to have died in nine eleven. That whole, like
Speaker 1: all of that Post secret, you know, well, that whole
Speaker 1: thing is I'm pretty sure art project. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: post secret. Which one is that post secret? It's the
Speaker 1: everybody who knew me before eleven thinks I'm dead. That's
Speaker 1: not post secret. That's just a secret that was sent
Speaker 1: into Post secret. Right. Well, that's what I'm sorry it
Speaker 1: always gets it's always referred to as the post secret secret.
Speaker 1: I believe. Is that the Yeah? Yeah, but yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure that is something creative. Actually I said that,
Speaker 1: I'm confessing now. Yeah, I was going to say, explains
Speaker 1: why like nobody like we don't know your family or
Speaker 1: anything to take that one off the list, to do
Speaker 1: you wonder why you never met my parents for example. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's it for the nine eleven theories, like any
Speaker 1: of them, except for maybe like the family died at
Speaker 1: nine eleven. And I think it's a you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but I think it's it's worth a look
Speaker 1: just because of the coincidence and everything around the around
Speaker 1: the day. But then again, there are other people died
Speaker 1: and committed suicide around the same time too. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: absolutely true. Yeah, yeah, but it's worth a look, especially,
Speaker 1: I guess I think if it turned out as ethnicity
Speaker 1: was Middle Eastern in origin, well, it would be worth
Speaker 1: pondering a little bit anyway. His ethnicity though, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't want to beat that horse because it's kind
Speaker 1: of his getting there. But his ethnicity could have literally
Speaker 1: been one of at least a dozen things. That's that's
Speaker 1: why it would be. It would be kind of it
Speaker 1: would be kind of nice to find out because, like
Speaker 1: I said, he looks totally like he could totally be American,
Speaker 1: Indian at Italian. Dude, you know what he actually looks like.
Speaker 1: It could be from all kinds of parts. At times,
Speaker 1: I think he looks Slavic. I think he looks exactly
Speaker 1: like you know when they do those progressions of like
Speaker 1: what what's everybody going to look like in a hundred years,
Speaker 1: And it's just like this amalgamation every don't know, it's
Speaker 1: not as you age, it's the amalgamation merged. He looks
Speaker 1: like that to me, it I mean, he really just
Speaker 1: looks like it's just this jumble of like a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff. But that's just me. Um, okay, So the
Speaker 1: only other theory we have is murder. Oh I like
Speaker 1: this one, of course, you always like this one. You know.
Speaker 1: The things that people give to support this are he
Speaker 1: may not have been alone Sunday night, the complete lack
Speaker 1: of personal belongings, like you know, his room could have
Speaker 1: been yeah clean, like they could have taken a backpack
Speaker 1: that he might have had. Um, can you I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: you're gonna need to give me a little detail. I
Speaker 1: think I know how this is supposed to have played out,
Speaker 1: but how was the murder supposed to have been carried out.
Speaker 1: I mean he was, he's in a hanging, and it does.
Speaker 1: It did not appear that there was any struggle marks
Speaker 1: on his body. Yeah, and that think at your marks
Speaker 1: anywhere other than where the belt was. So that's why
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand, like how this he was murdered
Speaker 1: theory has anything behind it other than it must be
Speaker 1: well two things. One thing that I did not mention
Speaker 1: before but I will mention now is that his system
Speaker 1: was completely clean. He had no alcohol, tobacco, or drug
Speaker 1: in his system, so he wasn't that. But convincing someone
Speaker 1: to kill himselves is kind of murder, Okay, So it's
Speaker 1: not that somebody hung him there and then held him
Speaker 1: down till he died. I don't think that. I have
Speaker 1: definitely seen some people online saying he must have been
Speaker 1: drugged with some sort of well they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: it just didn't show up in the top. You don't
Speaker 1: really know what they're checking for the toxicology. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: somebody could have gassed in with carbon monoxide from a car.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they checked for that or not.
Speaker 1: Who knows. Yeah, So I don't know. I don't think
Speaker 1: this theory works particularly well The only other thing that
Speaker 1: can come up in evidence for this would be the
Speaker 1: weird discrepancies in the handwriting, which is show was talking
Speaker 1: a little bit about this earlier. Yeah, well, well, the
Speaker 1: discrepancy in this sign in note I think can be
Speaker 1: explained pretty easily because if you look at it where
Speaker 1: he put his name in his address down, it's a
Speaker 1: piece of paper. I think it was like the back
Speaker 1: of an envelope. Actually it was. Obviously it was a
Speaker 1: very formal set up at this little bent. Yes, so
Speaker 1: it was. Actually it was the it was at the
Speaker 1: front of an envelope, and then that was where they
Speaker 1: would put the cash that he had paid for the
Speaker 1: night of the hotel. And then any time anybody would
Speaker 1: go to pay more towards the room, they would just
Speaker 1: keep putting it in the envelope. And when they checked out,
Speaker 1: they would look an envelope and see and they would
Speaker 1: look an envelope and see, okay, you've paid for three nights,
Speaker 1: you were here three nights, Great, you're good to go. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So it was actually on an envelope, Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: And so you can see where somebody has written three
Speaker 1: lines there written date, name, address, state, and three lines
Speaker 1: and then you see laws handwriting law static from ten
Speaker 1: nineteen South Progressive Street, and then blow up. I say
Speaker 1: it says I d and then somebody to the writer
Speaker 1: that has written Meridian Comma Idaho. It's the same handwriting.
Speaker 1: It's not Lyle's handwriting, but it's the same handwriting as
Speaker 1: whoever it was that wrote date state and date name,
Speaker 1: address and state on the left. So that could have
Speaker 1: been the clerk took it from him and said, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: what is what what? No, that's what I mean. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying it's suspicious. That's what I'm saying is That's
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is the clerk said, what's the city?
Speaker 1: And the clerk wrote it, and the clark was the person,
Speaker 1: and so people say those discrepancies are suspicious and not
Speaker 1: at all. I would agree with that, But then again, too, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know Meridian, Idaho, or maybe the
Speaker 1: clerk just knew it was just not I don't know.
Speaker 1: You can't because there was no zip code. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: there were zip code, i'd say they you know, the
Speaker 1: investigators wrote it because they knew. But the one thing
Speaker 1: I will say is I do think the handwriting. I
Speaker 1: think he was masking his handwriting, and that explains this.
Speaker 1: But I will say that the suicide, the note that
Speaker 1: just SAIDs suicide in the trash looked pretty different to
Speaker 1: me than the handwriting that said for the room. Well,
Speaker 1: and I got to say it though, the like my
Speaker 1: handwriting can depend on my mood, my posture, Like if
Speaker 1: I'm standing over a table writing versus sitting down at
Speaker 1: the table writing, all that stuff affects that how much
Speaker 1: coffee I've had, that kind of thing. Yeah, I agree
Speaker 1: that affect your handwriting, But yeah, I mean the only
Speaker 1: other thing is that that people say that because he
Speaker 1: had written suicide on the little piece of paper that
Speaker 1: he that was somebody he had written home or something
Speaker 1: like that. But I don't I don't know. I would
Speaker 1: think that if he had written anything else. You know,
Speaker 1: you always see this in the movies occasionally this is
Speaker 1: real is somebody writes on the little pad of paper
Speaker 1: that's in the hotel room and then pulls it away
Speaker 1: and they can see the impressions in the next the
Speaker 1: next couple of sheets of paper. But you would think
Speaker 1: that they would have looked for that thing to see, well,
Speaker 1: did anybody write on this? So you think they would have.
Speaker 1: But since we don't know what he was doing for
Speaker 1: two days, he could have written it somewhere else, or
Speaker 1: he could have gone and bought a different you know,
Speaker 1: just a nice card or something like that. So we
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, this is just a
Speaker 1: totally unsatisfying case that we've talked about for an hour
Speaker 1: and a half. It isn't satisfying. I would like to
Speaker 1: see them take the step analysis and broaden into the
Speaker 1: entire world, to what other parts of the world he
Speaker 1: might have lived in previously, you know. And uh, another
Speaker 1: not eleven connection is perhaps he was a Saudi citizen
Speaker 1: and his death was just just kind of because you know,
Speaker 1: I did come up from actually a fairly well to
Speaker 1: do background, but it was kind of a coincidence. And
Speaker 1: or maybe he was just worried about the future of
Speaker 1: his country after it turned up. The nineteen of the
Speaker 1: Guys Night, like most of the hijackers for Saudi Nationals
Speaker 1: and Saudi Arabia of course, is a participant memoration in
Speaker 1: interpoal and of course his fingerprints and all the identify
Speaker 1: find stuff was sent to Interpol. Nothing came back be
Speaker 1: that it could be at the saudiast for example, got
Speaker 1: the favor for him and they ran and oh oh
Speaker 1: yeah it's ted. Oh that would be embarrassing after all
Speaker 1: these other things. Let's just tell him we've got nothing
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist, right, no match now, sorry guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just super unsatisfying and really sad. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it would be nicest if we could find
Speaker 1: out who Lyle was and you know, put a name
Speaker 1: to his face and everything like that. So if you
Speaker 1: know's got some family, Yeah, if you know Ile. Obviously
Speaker 1: you're not talking, so we're not going to ask you
Speaker 1: for an email. Yeah, don't send us an email. Don't
Speaker 1: actually do please because I really i'd really love you.
Speaker 1: Don't want to read your dumb email. Um, well, do
Speaker 1: you guys have anything else? I got nothing else on
Speaker 1: this No, unfortunately not. Yeah, if we want to see
Speaker 1: some of our research that we did, um, you can
Speaker 1: find that as well as links to buying merch You
Speaker 1: can also listen to our episodes. You can also find
Speaker 1: entire comprehensive episode list on our website. That website is,
Speaker 1: of course, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can listen
Speaker 1: you know where you're finding us to listen to us. Uh.
Speaker 1: If you can subscribe wherever you're listening to us, do
Speaker 1: that if you haven't already. If you can rate and review,
Speaker 1: do that because that's how other people find us. You
Speaker 1: can find us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're
Speaker 1: actually twice on Facebook. We've got a page and a group.
Speaker 1: So like the page, joined the group when you yeah,
Speaker 1: when you join the group, make sure to answer those
Speaker 1: questions or else our mods probably won't let you in personally.
Speaker 1: Bouncers of the Internet, they are, they are our bouncers
Speaker 1: of the Internet. Uh. You can find us on Twitter,
Speaker 1: where we are Thinking Sideways. You can also find us
Speaker 1: on Reddit, where our subreddit is Surprise Thinking Sideways. UM,
Speaker 1: I know it's just Surprise twist. You can also you
Speaker 1: can send us an email if you just want to
Speaker 1: talk to us or like whatever. I don't really care why,
Speaker 1: I just send us an email. The email address is
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. I think that's
Speaker 1: everything pretty much. Yeah we did that. Yeah we're good. Yeah. Okay,
Speaker 1: So all of that having been said, UM, I'm going
Speaker 1: to get out of here. We'll tech you guys later.
Speaker 1: Back on the bus for me. Bye guys. Bye.