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Speaker 1: Also media welcome to it could happen to hear a

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Speaker 1: podcast about why everything feels absolutely awful.

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Speaker 2: And also deeply unhinged. I'm your host. Feel long and

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Speaker 2: oh boy, thing feel bad? I don't know. This is

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Speaker 2: my bost This is my most Robert in a while.

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Speaker 3: With me to talk about why everything sort of feels

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Speaker 3: like this and the disconnect between the fact that like

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Speaker 3: everyone actually hates Trump and the way that's being not

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Speaker 3: covered and reflected in everything that you interact with. Is

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Speaker 3: Vicky Ostrowell, who is a writer and editor at the

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Speaker 3: collective journal Call you were of many things agitated.

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Speaker 4: I'm very busy, I.

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Speaker 2: Think, it says bricklayer, right. Yeah. He also has a

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Speaker 2: new book called The Extended Universe out April fourteenth of

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Speaker 2: next year that is about the way that Disney sort

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Speaker 2: of took over the world through the deployment, expansion, and

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Speaker 2: usage of the violence of the copyright regime, a thing

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Speaker 2: that is suddenly very relevant again in our weird Jimmy

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Speaker 2: Kimmel Hours. So we'll be talking some more about that

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Speaker 2: and about Disney's long history of fascist bullshit towards the

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Speaker 2: end of the ship.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well it's it's it's a pleasure to be

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Speaker 4: hearing me at thanks And yeah, we are all Jimmy's Kimmel,

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Speaker 4: you know, in this moment, I think.

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Speaker 5: Oh God, oh Jimmy's Kimmel.

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Speaker 2: That okay.

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Speaker 3: So I think that the place I wanted to start

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Speaker 3: is with this like question of like, why does it

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Speaker 3: feel like this? Yeah, And I think part of the

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Speaker 3: reason it feels like that is that Trump's Aprouler rating

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Speaker 3: is really low, Like people don't actually like him. It's

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Speaker 3: like we're reading is forty one percent. It's down like

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Speaker 3: a point in September. Even with all the Charlie Kirk stuff.

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Speaker 3: It's still down. His most popular policy is immigration policy,

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Speaker 3: which is terrifying, But his most popular policy is pulling

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Speaker 3: at forty two percent, So no one actually likes him

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Speaker 3: or anything that he does, right, and like, like forty

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Speaker 3: one percent is still like a lot of people, but

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Speaker 3: it's not the majority of the country, notably, like bi

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Speaker 3: how math works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's been a few things I think are interesting about

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Speaker 3: this there. There there are signs that this is actually

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Speaker 3: really really there's something substantive happening here. One of them

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Speaker 3: was a special election that I think people have paid

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Speaker 3: attention to for about two days and then forgot about.

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Speaker 3: Which was a special election in Iowa which prevented the

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Speaker 3: GOP from getting a two third supermajority in the state

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Speaker 3: legislature and the Democrats somehow, miraculously, even though the Democrats

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Speaker 3: are hideously unpopular, they won a special election in a

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Speaker 3: district in Western Iowa that was plus eleven for Trump

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Speaker 3: this year. And this is not like a like this

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Speaker 3: is a district that is like just Sioux City or something,

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Speaker 3: or like you know, this is a this is a

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Speaker 3: jerrymandered ass district that is like a little bit of

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Speaker 3: Sioux City and then stretched out all the way into

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Speaker 3: a bunch of rural areas like diffuse the vote. They

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Speaker 3: won this district by eleven like last year they lost

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Speaker 3: this election by eleven points in Western Iowa.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, unhinged.

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Speaker 3: They're doing like all elections like this like that. It's

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Speaker 3: it's thing ridiculous, Like again this this is like this

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Speaker 3: is again like voting for people who are like not popular,

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Speaker 3: but it's like literally any alternative people are like holy shit.

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Speaker 3: Western Iowa is like nah, fuck this this fucking sucks

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Speaker 3: ass Like it's.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a thing that you know, I've been following a

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Speaker 4: bit is that farmers are freaking out. Yeah, soybean, soybean

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Speaker 4: crops and corn crops are going to be rotting in

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Speaker 4: the fields, you know. I think soybean so soy in particular,

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Speaker 4: something like fifty percent of the US soy crop is

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Speaker 4: traditionally export and by traditionally I mean every year exported

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Speaker 4: to China. This year, China is not buying any American

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Speaker 4: soybeans yep. So literally half of the market is going

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Speaker 4: to die. And I don't know, you know, sometimes these

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Speaker 4: numbers don't don't really do justice. If half of an

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Speaker 4: economy collapses, that's the whole economy collapsing. That's not that's

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Speaker 4: not like oh yeah, they just like took you know,

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Speaker 4: a haircut, Like that's massive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: American farmers are like the most bailed out class of

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Speaker 3: people who are not like major corporations in the entire world.

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Speaker 2: And it's not working.

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Speaker 3: Like they keep they keep being like, oh, it's okay,

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Speaker 3: we'll just like give you a bunch of money, and

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Speaker 3: it's not enough because China has decided not to buy any.

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Speaker 2: Of the soybean crop.

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Speaker 3: But it's like okay, yeah, and this is something we

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Speaker 3: talked about like at the beginning of the administration, which

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Speaker 3: is that like this administration has been going through and

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Speaker 3: systematically alienating every single part of the coalition. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 3: pissing off like the farmers. They're pissing off like the

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Speaker 3: major pharmaceutical companies, they're pissing off the military. They're pissing

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Speaker 3: off a whole bunch of the parts of government bureaucracy.

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Speaker 3: Like they've kind of stripped the FBI to the bones

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Speaker 3: over like comey stuff that they're still mad about. And

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Speaker 3: then the guy they put in charge of it is

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Speaker 3: just like completely incompetence, and it's like, Okay, there's only

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Speaker 3: so long you can sort of go like systematically alienating

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Speaker 3: every part of your coalition, just like basically attempting to

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Speaker 3: drop a bomb on the economy every single week, and

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Speaker 3: sometimes it drops and sometimes it doesn't.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. I think there's actually an interesting sort of

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Speaker 4: parallel here with tech stocks and with like the economy

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Speaker 4: in general that has been sort of you know, on

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Speaker 4: the ground for most of us has felt like it's

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Speaker 4: been in recession since twenty twenty. Yeahright, you know, of

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Speaker 4: different sizes and localities, but it's felt bad for a while.

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Speaker 4: Now it's really bad. No one can get a job, yep, right,

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Speaker 4: like things are really like prices are going up up up.

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Speaker 4: Everyone feels bad, and yet the stock market is still

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Speaker 4: achieving highs. And I think there's sort of a generalized

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Speaker 4: equivalent strategy of like make it look like things are

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Speaker 4: normal and good and like that will actually just support

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Speaker 4: things materially, and like, yep, I mean maybe it will forever.

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Speaker 4: Maybe the bottom will never fall out. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that's I think that's a bad bad

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Speaker 4: but like, okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well but and I think the interesting part of

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Speaker 3: this too is if you look at what's going on

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Speaker 3: with the economy, and it's also word noting, right, like,

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Speaker 3: the economy nominally in sort of econometric terms, looks fine.

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Speaker 3: You're not fine, but it looks sort of okay, right,

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Speaker 3: the stock market is still growing. There's technically like economic growth.

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Speaker 3: But comma, we both saw this chart a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks ago. That is the most unhinged thing I've ever

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Speaker 3: seen in my entire life, which is there is a

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Speaker 3: GDP chart by a JP Morgan analyst which shows that

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Speaker 3: tech in the last like year roughly and like in

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Speaker 3: the last sort of like church and Window, it's been

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Speaker 3: thirty five to forty five percent of all US GDP growth.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And when I say tech, by the way, like to

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Speaker 3: be clear about this, it is technically a composite of

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Speaker 3: like all sector, right, but like it's basically just the

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Speaker 3: like the top like the five big tech companies. Right,

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Speaker 3: it's like Apple, it's Microsoft, but pasifically. And this is

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Speaker 3: the one that's like unhinged right now, is that like

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Speaker 3: the most valuable company in the world is in video,

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Speaker 3: a company that makes graphics cards.

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Speaker 4: Yep, yep.

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Speaker 3: And this is all because this is all of his

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Speaker 3: GDP growth quote unquote is AI boom stuff? Right, it's

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Speaker 3: like massive fix capital investments. Sure, it's like yeah, there's

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Speaker 3: like incredible fixed capal investments, but the fixed capital investments

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Speaker 3: are just We're building a diesel powered AI data center

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Speaker 3: somewhere in Tennessee that is going to poison the entire

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Speaker 3: population for no benefits. Yeah, And it's like all of

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Speaker 3: these companies like have gone just completely totally all in

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Speaker 3: on AI. I think it doesn't make anybody, can't make

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Speaker 3: anybody in structurally, will not make anybody. And this is

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Speaker 3: like a third of like the growth of the economy.

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Speaker 4: We are actually living through the famous old tweet the drill.

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Speaker 4: Is it drill about the candles? Someone out fixed my economy.

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Speaker 4: We're living in the candles tweet. The whole economy is candles. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And this is the thing that our colleague at this

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Speaker 3: run argues that there's just there is not enough money

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Speaker 3: in the world to just continuously bail these companies out. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Like there just isn't right the cash flow of these companies.

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Speaker 3: It's like they've managed to achieve a cash flow rate

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Speaker 3: that like can't be replaced by government contracts, which is

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Speaker 3: just unbelievable. And I think this is one of the disconnectings,

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Speaker 3: right because like it's interesting You're starting to see a

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Speaker 3: little bit of stuff crop up from like local level

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Speaker 3: politicians where every once in a while you get them

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Speaker 3: to be like, oh yeah, no, it is like a

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Speaker 3: recession economy, like on the ground in like Wisconsin. But

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Speaker 3: I feel like in the media, and this is one

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Speaker 3: of the things that I think makes everything insane. It's

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Speaker 3: not being treated that way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah no, And I think you know, you you went

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Speaker 4: exactly where where you know, I mean, we had talked

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Speaker 4: about going but we were going to go, which is

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Speaker 4: that like part of what is so crazy making about

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Speaker 4: this current moment is precisely that disconnect between sort of

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Speaker 4: the on the ground experience that everyone's been having for

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Speaker 4: years now. But it's like especially intense and like the

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Speaker 4: fact that like AI is very obviously not interesting or

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Speaker 4: good and no one likes it, and like even that

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Speaker 4: people who sort of are i think, mostly in good

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Speaker 4: faith like trying to take it seriously, and who are like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's going to change everything, Like you know, like normally

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Speaker 4: people in work stuff, like they don't really use it

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Speaker 4: very much, or if they do use it, like it's

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Speaker 4: not effective. There wasn't a campaign to force everyone to

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Speaker 4: buy smartphones. When the iPhone happened, everyone wanted one because

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Speaker 4: it was like obvious what it did for you. Now

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Speaker 4: you know, they're obviously whatever. It's not This is not

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Speaker 4: a defense of the smartphone, but like there is this

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Speaker 4: broad recognition that that is nonsense, right, that like the

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Speaker 4: I economy is nonsense, that like the economy that everyone says

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Speaker 4: is doing fine feels bad. And this has been going

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Speaker 4: on since you know, Biden campaigned on you know, oh,

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Speaker 4: it's just a vibe session, the you know, the economy

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Speaker 4: is fine, and the economy wasn't fine.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: One of the charts I really am obsessed with is

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Speaker 4: a chart from like Bloomberg, which is like a small

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Speaker 4: business owner confidence from like twenty ten to twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 4: and like if you look like from twenty sixteen to

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty, which is the first Trump term, it goes

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Speaker 4: up like five hundred percent, right.

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Speaker 2: She's cry, just goes up.

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Speaker 4: It just just as huge. It's the highest that's been

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Speaker 4: by huge margin, and it just drops again in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: So it finally made me understand why so many Libs

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Speaker 4: were like so committed to the vibe session analysis, because

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Speaker 4: there was a massive vibe inflation under the first Trump administration.

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Speaker 4: So the reason people felt like the economy was good

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Speaker 4: was because small business owners. And this is the classic

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Speaker 4: analysis of fascists, right, the petty boys, wow, the small

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Speaker 4: business Yeah, they were like, this are the best times

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Speaker 4: you've ever lived through, based on no evidence. And if

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Speaker 4: you work for a business and your boss is like

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Speaker 4: things are booming, are doing great, you know, if you

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Speaker 4: don't run the numbers, you're likely to believe it. You know,

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Speaker 4: like if if everyone around you is saying that like

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Speaker 4: there's no reason to doubt it unless I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: you don't you don't really believe your boss all the time.

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Speaker 4: But you know what I'm saying, like it just has

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Speaker 4: it has an effect of making everyone feel like things

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Speaker 4: are better. That chart started to creep up again after

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Speaker 4: Trump's election November twenty twenty four, before Liberation Day, but

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Speaker 4: on the announcement of the Liberation Day, traffs tanks. So

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Speaker 4: that's gone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's a really vital sort of

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Speaker 3: conponent of what's happening. Is like, you know, we talk

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Speaker 3: a lot about how so there's sort of these like

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Speaker 3: self contained like reality tunnels that people are gone down.

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Speaker 3: But it's also really diffused by class. Yes, yes, And

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Speaker 3: this ties back to the AI stuff for example, where

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Speaker 3: it's like, if you are in the tech sector, AI

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Speaker 3: is kind of useful because the one thing you can

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Speaker 3: sort of kind of do decently well is programmed, right,

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Speaker 3: and you're and if you are in this sort of

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Speaker 3: like world, which is again, enormous portions of all of

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Speaker 3: the economic growth, right that is happening is coming out

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Speaker 3: of these places, and it's like, oh, this really does

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Speaker 3: look like like the future is here. If you've you

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Speaker 3: suddenly have this machine that can do your job for you.

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Speaker 3: And it's like, well maybe coding, which wasn't that hard

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Speaker 3: to begin with, maybe, but like you know, like guys,

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Speaker 3: I say this as someone who learned to code and

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Speaker 3: hated it, but like you know, but like it creates

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Speaker 3: these sort of like self reinforced like reality tunnels. But

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Speaker 3: every the thing about the reality tunnels is like every

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Speaker 3: once in a while, like the actual world comes in

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Speaker 3: like a giant fucking arrow and punctures it. And that's

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Speaker 3: what happened to those all business people was they were like,

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Speaker 3: oh shit, what do you mean they got rid of

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Speaker 3: the deminimistic scession? What do you mean they're putting all

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Speaker 3: these tariffs up? What do you mean they're like just

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Speaker 3: straight up taking a sledgehammer to the entire logistics system

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Speaker 3: that have been moved. Like that's the basis of like

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Speaker 3: most America's all businesses are like our shipping businesses right

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Speaker 3: like or they're either either directly shipping businesses or they

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Speaker 3: rely on on cheap imports from a whole bunch of

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Speaker 3: different countries. This even goes into like the grift economy, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: massive portions of the grift economy are just like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I drop drip and grift bull supplements stacks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, Yeah, like you know, it's another reality tunnel mea.

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Speaker 2: Oh these products and services, damn it, that was a

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Speaker 2: better one than I was. I was gonna do. You

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Speaker 2: know what else is a scam. But these products and

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Speaker 2: services that support this podcast. We are so back. We

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Speaker 2: have never been more back.

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Speaker 3: I want to kind of also talk about what's been

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Speaker 3: happening structurally with the media as this has been going on,

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Speaker 3: which is that Trump and his party has staged a

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Speaker 3: pretty successful takeover of a lot of it. You know,

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Speaker 3: you had, I mean Elon Musk obviously buying X but

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Speaker 3: like they're in the process of taking over CBS basically

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Speaker 3: by using the fact that quote unquote free media is

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Speaker 3: actually capitalist media, and you can just buy them out

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Speaker 3: and bully them by threatening them with losing money. You

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Speaker 3: can and in fact just completely get them to fall

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Speaker 3: in line or have your own rich backers just buy it.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is refueling the disconnect right where

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Speaker 3: there was also this this post twenty twenty all of

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Speaker 3: like this the senior management level of all of the

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Speaker 3: newspapers kind of lost their minds in twenty twenty because

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Speaker 3: their staff was like, no, we don't want to Prince

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Speaker 3: Tom Cotton calling for the us RB to be deployed

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Speaker 3: against protesters, and these people were like, Okay, fuck it,

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Speaker 3: We're just we're like, you know, you see as like

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Speaker 3: the Washington Post, they were like, yeah, we will literally

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Speaker 3: rather burn the Post than have that happened again. And

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Speaker 3: the Post obviously is like under the control of Jeff Bezos.

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Speaker 3: She was a style war Trump ally, and I think

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Speaker 3: this has been contributing to it because like they've been

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Speaker 3: able to take over social media platforms, and they've been

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Speaker 3: able to take over the sort of corporate like bourgeois media,

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Speaker 3: and it's created this incredible unreality of this image that

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Speaker 3: he is like this like staggeringly popular leader and that

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Speaker 3: the things he do are popular, and that there's been

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Speaker 3: like a cultural shift towards his stuff, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: I mean, there kind of has been a cultural shift

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Speaker 3: in terms of like, you know, elite liberals are allowed

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Speaker 3: to be racist again. All of the people who always

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Speaker 3: wanted to be eugenicists are like, you know, on that

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Speaker 3: shit now.

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Speaker 4: And they you know, they cracked their knuckles and warmed

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Speaker 4: up under COVID, right like this, This is also contiguous

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Speaker 4: in a way. And yeah, but yeah, and I think

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Speaker 4: that that's exactly right. And I think part of what

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Speaker 4: we saw in the last week, I mean, I know

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Speaker 4: we're going to talk about this a bit that like

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Speaker 4: the last week when we're recording this, which was the

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Speaker 4: week of the Charlie Kirk memorializing, when everyone pretended that

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Speaker 4: ventilating a Nazi was like the greatest tragedy that had

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Speaker 4: the fallen American heroes. And I saw a lot of

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Speaker 4: people who had been up until then relatively level headed

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Speaker 4: suddenly really start to panic that week and feel like

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Speaker 4: things were really And I think part of that was

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Speaker 4: because with a man as absolutely risless and as obviously

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Speaker 4: malicious and uninteresting as Charlie Kirk getting treatment like he was,

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Speaker 4: you know, Robert Redford or whatever he wants to pass,

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Speaker 4: I think that happening in unison across all the media.

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Speaker 4: I think people finally realized, like, oh, everything is totally captured,

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Speaker 4: and the people who hadn't really thought that felt like

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Speaker 4: that there was sort of this unanimity, the unanimity you're

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Speaker 4: talking about because they're able to project this unanimity through

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Speaker 4: this one sort of media voice, and like the fact

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Speaker 4: that that was punctured by Jimmy Kimmel getting.

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Speaker 6: Fired, and they're being like a genuine upswell of popular

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Speaker 6: attention about the man show guy, like like who hasn't

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Speaker 6: been funny, like probably since he was fourteen or whatever.

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Speaker 6: I think a lot of people have focused on that

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Speaker 6: as being extremely embarrassing in cringe, which like, yeah, accurate,

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Speaker 6: but I think like also like they couldn't even hold

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Speaker 6: it together for a week, right, Like they couldn't even

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Speaker 6: hold this full court press together for a week.

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Speaker 4: They had that Charlie Kirk documentary. They were like, we're

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Speaker 4: gonna film it on you know, in Sinclair, all the

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Speaker 4: places where we would be showing Jimmy Kimmel. They just

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Speaker 4: canceled it. They put it on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, twenty six thousand use this means I'm very, very

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Speaker 3: proud of this. More people listen to me complaining about

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Speaker 3: the way that everything, everywhere, all at once, was spreading

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Speaker 3: the porschewise patriarchal ideology of the family. More people listen

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Speaker 3: to me talk about that on this show that watch

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Speaker 3: the stupid fucking Charlie gud worry.

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Speaker 4: Sorry to that man, but people do not care, like

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Speaker 4: people don't care about that guy. And and it didn't

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Speaker 4: And also as you said the opening, his poles have

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Speaker 4: gone down. People are like shut up about this, like

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Speaker 4: they don't care. It doesn't work, like like poles aren't everything.

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Speaker 4: But like, I think that this disconnect that's so hard

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Speaker 4: is that if you are mostly getting your information from

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Speaker 4: a media environment, which all of us do, like that's

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Speaker 4: how most of us get all of our information. That's

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Speaker 4: this is not a judgment. It feels like everyone is

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Speaker 4: like you know, is at like half mast, you know,

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Speaker 4: for their for their beautiful their beautiful boy. Look what

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Speaker 4: they did to my beautiful boy with his tiny little

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Speaker 4: face and his huge neck that like apparently was made

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Speaker 4: of steel and caught bullets. Like a Fox News article

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Speaker 4: said that he was like particularly strong bodied and he

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Speaker 4: kept he saved other people.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I didn't talk about this for a second because

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Speaker 3: this is so fucking un hitch what Okay, So his

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Speaker 3: like surgeit or whatever was like, oh yeah he was.

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Speaker 3: He started his surgeon wrote a thing about like this

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Speaker 3: bone that doesn't exist. Yeah that he was like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: he had this really thick bone there that stopped the

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Speaker 3: bullet and this got like picked up by like Fox News.

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Speaker 2: Is that running a story about this magical iron.

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Speaker 3: Bone in Charlie Kirk's neck that like God put there

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Speaker 3: or something to save I just it's it's so lad I.

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Speaker 4: Can read the headline for you. Hang on, I've got

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Speaker 4: it here. Oh God, this is Fox News on x

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Speaker 4: There's a picture of Charlie Kirk that says surgeon says,

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Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk's body stopped bullet in quote absolute miracle that

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Speaker 4: saved others, TPUSA says, and then quote man of steel,

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Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk's body stopped a bullet that would typically quote

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Speaker 4: just go through everything and it was quote an absolute miracle.

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Speaker 4: Nobody else was killed his surgeon Tod's turning point. You say,

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Speaker 4: so that's weird behavior that people don't like. That's not. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 4: So I think like basically they have this capacity to

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Speaker 4: do this like really really intense, unified message across the

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Speaker 4: entire spectrum of the media, and we're seeing it again

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Speaker 4: right now with like NPR publishing basically does tile it

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Speaker 4: all actually cause autism? So the science isn't out yet.

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Speaker 4: You know or whatever, like as their headline, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so like obviously, like that's scary if you're used to

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Speaker 4: a reality which is shaped largely by the media, and

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Speaker 4: Trump has gotten into office twice based on a media

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Speaker 4: reality shaping effect. The media has been the main tool,

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Speaker 4: both social and mainstream, for putting him into power. So

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Speaker 4: it's understandable to take it seriously because it does need

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Speaker 4: to be taken seriously. But there's other stuff going on.

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Speaker 3: Well, And like the funniest version of this was just

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Speaker 3: how fast Disney caved on bringing Jimmy Kimmel back, yes,

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Speaker 3: which was like sub one week.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it was sub one week. And you know,

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Speaker 4: to me, that says that actually the boycott spread real

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Speaker 4: fast and real far. Like there was a Disney adult

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Speaker 4: on TikTok right who was sort of like giving people

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Speaker 4: instructions on how to cancel their Disney World vacations and

402
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Speaker 4: was like canceling his Disney World wedding, you know, and

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Speaker 4: like this was like all happening really really fast. People

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Speaker 4: were really mad, and you know, yeah, it's again it's

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Speaker 4: goofy that it's over Jimmy Kimmel, but it's not really

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Speaker 4: about Jimmy Kimmel, Right, it's because everyone hates this man.

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Speaker 4: They hate this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and people don't actually want this in dipshit to

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Speaker 3: just literally and you know, and he's trying to do

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Speaker 3: this again, right, he's apparently trying to sue Disney like

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Speaker 3: they don't want the fucking orange guy to be able

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Speaker 3: to just straight up say what is legal to say

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Speaker 3: on TV. Yeah, which is the thing that he is

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Speaker 3: attempting to do right now.

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Speaker 4: And the other thing about it that I think is

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Speaker 4: really important and relevant is that a better dictatorship doesn't

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Speaker 4: go to the press and fire this man. They pull

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Speaker 4: strings behind the scenes. They get him to retract like

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Speaker 4: on his show in a way that causes no attention,

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Speaker 4: and the people who follow Kimmel see it enough to

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Speaker 4: understand that power has been pulled behind the strings, but

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Speaker 4: they probably don't really think much about it. Right. That

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Speaker 4: is how like real, really smooth smooth repression of a

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Speaker 4: free press into a bot press involves a lot of

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Speaker 4: strings being pulled behind the scenes, and in fact, it

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Speaker 4: has been happening for twenty years in America. There has

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Speaker 4: been a lot of that going on. Part of what's

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Speaker 4: so obscene about this whole situation in a certain way.

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Speaker 4: Is that Trump just needs to do less. Things have

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Speaker 4: been set up for fascism for a while. He just

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Speaker 4: needs to do less. And he can't help himself. They

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Speaker 4: can't help themselves because they're you know, because they need

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Speaker 4: it to be in this sort of public mode. And

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Speaker 4: also he's lost his you know, his juice.

435
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, well and it's also just like, I mean,

436
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 3: this is so partially Trump is just like pathologically obsessed

437
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 3: with late night comedy, right because he's a TV guy,

438
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 3: and so he's just mad on red and mad and

439
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 3: nude online. Except like the previous version of it were

440
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 3: like you were just like throwing shit at your television

441
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 3: set in like nineteen fifty.

442
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: Five, which is a real really terrified.

443
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 3: Thing to have in the presidency. But you know, speaking

444
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 3: of speaking of having things in the presidency, these products

445
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 3: and services, look, if they've painted more, you get better transitions.

446
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, but they don't, so vote for them.

447
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 3: We are back, So you know, I think it's worth

448
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 3: noting that, Like yeah, no, like like the immediate financial

449
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 3: pressure of you know, just just the collision of weight

450
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 3: hold on, like the people who buy things, which is

451
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 3: most people, admittedly, like Disney adults are a very narrow

452
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 3: subset of people. But like the speed and rapidity of

453
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 3: which reality, which is people don't like this guy hit

454
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 3: the like sort of you know, just just like just

455
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 3: like sort of smashed through this like tunnel of the

456
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk stuff was just unbelievable, you know. And like

457
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 3: part of this this is something that Marissa Cabas from

458
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 3: uh the Handbasket reported, which is that part of what

459
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: was going on was Disney was about to roll out

460
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 3: a price increase, yeah, and so they had to bring

461
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: it back so they could do their price increase, which well, brother,

462
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 3: just delay the price increase if we're trying to do

463
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: authoritaries whatever. Okay, you know, I am happy these people

464
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 3: suck at doing this.

465
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: It's great.

466
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 4: We like it.

467
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,239
Speaker 3: We like that they're bad at it, right, Yeah, you know,

468
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 3: like Disney is being fresher cheer. But I think it's

469
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: worth talking about something that you have been spending a

470
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 3: ungodly amount of time in the minds of, yeah, which

471
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: is Disney and fascist Oh boy.

472
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 4: Hey, yeah, I mean part of what's been so funny

473
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 4: about this week for me personally, and that's what really

474
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 4: mattered obviously, is that is that is that, Like you know,

475
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 4: when we went into this administration, we started seeing what

476
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 4: they were doing. I was like, I can't believe I'm

477
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 4: writing a book about free trade and law fair right,

478
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 4: like warfare by law, like you know, like like sort

479
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 4: of this this massive corporate legal apparatus that has been

480
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 4: supported by global trade regimes because they're ripping it apart

481
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 4: right like that, Like yeah, like the pharma tariffs is

482
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 4: like a huge blow to the IP regime. Sorry, the

483
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 4: intellectual property regime. The IP regime is what I analyze

484
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 4: in the book I've just written and is coming out

485
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 4: in April, and it's about how Disney really was like

486
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: a sort of pioneer and understanding the value of intellectual

487
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: property and manipulating it and how you can see that

488
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 4: through the entire corporate and artistic history of Disney Studios.

489
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 4: So it's about like Disney movies and how they're all connected.

490
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 4: They actually all sort of tell stories about IP in

491
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 4: certain ways, and how we sort of miss that angle

492
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: on them very often, very frequently, and misunderstand how much

493
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 4: IP functions in the broader society because for example, fast

494
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 4: fashion companies. Now I know you said talk about Disney,

495
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 4: im talking about else fast fashion companies, they actually own

496
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 4: very very little materially, so their offices are leased. Mostly

497
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 4: their factories are contracted. You know, everyone who makes the

498
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 4: sewing is contracted. They might own their stores, but they

499
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 4: probably lease their stores, right, They like have very few

500
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 4: direct employees other than like store level if they don't franchise,

501
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 4: but they might even franchise. They might not even employ

502
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 4: the store level people, but they probably do store level

503
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 4: people corporate employees. And then they own their IP and

504
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 4: maybe they own a headquarters building somewhere right like that's

505
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 4: a fancy building, and everything else is quote unquote owned

506
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 4: by them, controlling the designs, the logos, the images, and

507
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 4: they can guarantee that they can make almost infinite money

508
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 4: off of that because the global trade regime enforces copyright

509
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 4: law in a way that would make people who would

510
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: like to see any human rights thing enacted blush with shame,

511
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 4: and it is incredibly effective. It is the one thing

512
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 4: that international law does quite well is is enforced copyright

513
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 4: and trademark and patent. So when you have stuff like

514
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 4: the you know, you can no longer ship under eight

515
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 4: hundred dollars without tariffs, like those companies are entirely reliant

516
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 4: on being able to move these products as cheaply and

517
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 4: as quickly as possible because they don't own ships, they

518
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: don't own factories, they don't even really own the you know,

519
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 4: they they own the shirts only when they arrive on

520
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 4: American shores. Really, this has.

521
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: Always been the dream of reproduction of capital, which is

522
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 3: to have a company with no assets that makes money exactly.

523
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: And they're so close, they're so cleanly.

524
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 4: Close, and all this stuff is destroying it. So I

525
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 4: was like, well, great, now I've written this whole book

526
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 4: about how Disney, you know, is actually really like a

527
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 4: state actor, and like they have they have like a

528
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 4: sovereign territory in Florida that people talk about a little

529
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 4: bit called the Reedy Creek Improvement District you may or

530
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 4: may not know about. People talked about Celebration Florida a

531
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 4: bit when that happened in the two thousands, which is

532
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 4: like a weird, creepy company town that they run. They

533
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 4: actually own a huge section of It's like two counties.

534
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 4: It's larger than the size of Manhattan in central Florida.

535
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ, what the conflict was the Santa Us over

536
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 4: that don't say gay bill, which people you know, interpreted

537
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 4: largely through the lens of the you know, horrifyingly reactionary

538
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 4: politics who's pushing, which is understandable. Is also a conflict

539
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 4: over sovereignty in Florida because they don't pay taxes in

540
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 4: the same way, they make their own laws, they have

541
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 4: their own police force. So basically Jesus Christ.

542
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 3: Is they made the first networks.

543
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: They did it, they.

544
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 4: Actually did it, and they've been doing it for thirty years.

545
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 4: That probably sixty sixty nine is when they get the

546
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 4: deal for READI creatd. Hey, they've had it for a

547
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 4: lot for a long time. People don't love to talk

548
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 4: about this for some reason. I think it's really interesting, terrifying,

549
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 4: but really interesting. But the reason that that's all really

550
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 4: really connected to intellectual property is because one of the

551
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 4: things that Disney did, despite you know, having literally their

552
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 4: own statelet in the middle of Florida, is maintaining themselves

553
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,959
Speaker 4: as the magic kingdom. They are associated with childhood, nostalgia. Magic.

554
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 4: Even as they've grown and grown and grown this behemoth like,

555
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 4: they've managed to largely stay connected to the sort of

556
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 4: image of American innocence and childhood and there have been

557
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 4: moments in the nineties they overreached a bit. There's been

558
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 4: like you know, there have been problems, and you can

559
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 4: read all about that. But basically they did image management

560
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 4: on all these different levels. So they managed Mickey Mouse,

561
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 4: They managed the law around copyright, Like copyright extensions famously

562
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 4: were largely driven by Disney lobbying in nineteen seventy six

563
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 4: and then again in nineteen ninety eight. Anyway, so all

564
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 4: of these things, I'm trying to reduce a very big

565
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 4: argument to a very small package here, But basically, Disney

566
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 4: designed and the and the other IP businesses that work

567
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 4: around it have figured out that if you can control

568
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 4: the way your product appears in the market, and you

569
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 4: can control the images and the feelings people have about

570
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 4: them and the sort of thoughts and stuff, you can

571
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 4: really do whatever you want materially behind the scenes. Right, Like,

572
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 4: controlling an image is so powerful, And part of why

573
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 4: like what's happening with Disney Weds falling apart so fast

574
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: is because if they give in to Trump at all,

575
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 4: it requires shattering that image that has been a century

576
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 4: in the making, right, Like, part of what was so

577
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 4: brutal about the thing with Jimmy Kimmel was like, it's

578
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 4: just obvious that Disney did that, that the corporate people

579
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 4: did that, and they did it because Trump did it publicly.

580
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 4: Trump is humiliating these corporations publicly. Right, He's humiliating them.

581
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 4: He's forcing them to come to heal. It's not working popularly,

582
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 4: he's not capturing anti corporate sentiment. Really, people are like,

583
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 4: why are you doing that over Jimmy Kimmel, Like, that's weird,

584
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 4: You're a creepy Yeah. But then also he's also destroying

585
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 4: legitimacy of everyone. It's pulling everything down around him. It's

586
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 4: a family annihilation. Right, He's so angry about twenty twenty

587
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 4: and like being tried that he's just going to rip

588
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 4: everything down around him.

589
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

590
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: I just said a lot of different things, but all

591
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 4: of which is to say, like, what's so interesting about

592
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 4: like the Trump regime in some ways and the relationship

593
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: to Disney is that Disney has for so long built

594
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 4: this image of America that has managed to persist like

595
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 4: across and against you know, a century of increasingly violent,

596
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 4: ineffective and visible imperialism like in Korea and Vietnam and

597
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 4: then Iraq and Afghanistan. It was so crucial to the

598
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 4: image of what American capitalism was. And then Trump, a

599
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 4: man who is just as built by images as the

600
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 4: Disney Corporation, comes and is just like just is ripping

601
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 4: it all down because he's sort of you know, one

602
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 4: gaping narcissistic wound, right, like running and running a country. Right. Yeah,

603
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 4: So if you look at the history of like Disney

604
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 4: in general, Hollywood, and intellectual property management in general, what

605
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 4: you can see is the way that we have that

606
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 4: this this media apparatus has been built. When I say

607
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 4: media apparatus, I think people tend to think, you know,

608
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 4: when you talk about images or the spectacle or whatever,

609
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 4: they just think about stuff on TV. But like, no,

610
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 4: it's also all the products that circulate through society. And

611
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 4: it's like the way that you get paid for your

612
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 4: job with you know, like the idea of clout is

613
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 4: like actually part of that, Like it does function as

614
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 4: a form of payment, right, Like it's not like people

615
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,239
Speaker 4: make fun of that, like oh good, but like then

616
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 4: everyone acts as though it's real, right, And when everyone

617
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: acts though it's real, it's real. It's a social relation.

618
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 4: So the entire spectacular economy, which is built entirely on

619
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: images that rely only on being forced through a sort

620
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 4: of massive group thing from the top of the economy.

621
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 4: And the political class was built by these corporations, but

622
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 4: it was built explicitly to you know, reap as much

623
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 4: wealth as possible for their shareholders.

624
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to make money.

625
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. Trump is too perfect a product of that, and

626
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 4: this regime is too perfect a product of that. And

627
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 4: now it's all it's all, you know, it is its

628
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 4: own grave digger, you know.

629
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, deport us a line about like the way that

630
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 3: the spectacle sort of like intrudes into and like becomes reality.

631
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 3: And like if Disney is sort of like the stage

632
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: manager of this, right, Like Trump just is the thing

633
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: like come to life and powering through it, and she

634
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: doesn't because he is the image and not the thing

635
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 3: that creates the image. She has different interests. Yes, then

636
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 3: the people who create the image, who are you know,

637
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: trying to make money? Trump is trying to like satisfy

638
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: all of his like vindictive sort of versissistic rage.

639
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 4: Exactly. It's worth remembering that, you know, although the damage

640
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 4: he's doing is extremely real. Yeah, he genuinely is fighting

641
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 4: over the election and over like Komi like he is,

642
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 4: like he really believes these things. This is a regime

643
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 4: that believes the things that for example, Carl Rove would

644
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 4: teach people to say to get away with doing what

645
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 4: they wanted to do. Right, these are these are as

646
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 4: you said, they are the image itself. They are true

647
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 4: believers in the spectacle, and as such break the fourth wall,

648
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 4: right if we're going to use a theater metaphor here,

649
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 4: as such, they end up they end up like just

650
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 4: destroying it. And I think Trump's power was that he

651
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 4: could puncture the spectacle, right, and then there were all

652
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 4: the people as you as you describe, and the people

653
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 4: who make the spectacle, maintain the image, make the image,

654
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 4: they were around him. So they would just they would

655
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 4: just close up the puncture, they would close up the suture.

656
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: They'd work really really hard. Right. So what I mean

657
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 4: by that is like Trump would say something absolutely unhinged,

658
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 4: and the New York Times would be like the controversial

659
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 4: statement from President Trump, right, which like completely normalizes it,

660
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 4: and like everyone would sort of pretend that he hadn't

661
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 4: just said the most unhinged lunatication. And this is the

662
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 4: first adminstration I'm talking about, right, Like people would just

663
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 4: pretend that it was normal.

664
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that he was speaking of four seasons total landscagne

665
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 3: yah right, like, just like she would happen.

666
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 4: Exactly and everyone would sort of try it would normalize it.

667
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 4: And that normalization repaired the fabric of the spectacle. And

668
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: it made Trump's fans really happy because you get to

669
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 4: watch August institutions such as the Washington Post going over

670
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 4: backwards to make an obvious, obscene lie seem like a

671
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 4: reasonable claim. Right, So they were humiliated in fixing the

672
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 4: spectacle behind him as he punctured it. Right, But he

673
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 4: he has actually too successfully gotten rid of everyone who

674
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 4: did that repair. He actually thought they were his enemies,

675
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 4: the Rhinos, right, the Republicans who kept him in line,

676
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 4: the Democrats, the media, they have been purged. They have

677
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 4: all been purged and controlled, and now they all just

678
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 4: repeat what he says. And what ends up happening is

679
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 4: that the spectacle just remains torn and people see through

680
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 4: it like it's just not working anymore. And I think

681
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 4: what's scary is that it still feels like they're repairing

682
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 4: the spectacle around his claims, because the entire media is

683
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 4: speaking as one and the Democrats are speaking as one

684
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 4: and the Republicans are speaking as one and they're all agreeing.

685
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 4: You know, we imagine someone else, John Q Public sitting

686
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 4: there and seeing that and going, oh, okay, it's all

687
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 4: pretty normal, Like, oh, Charlie Kirk was a good guy.

688
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 4: You know, we sort of project that that person is there.

689
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 4: But actually more and more people who would have been

690
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 4: like that in the first regime are like, well, I

691
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 4: don't believe any of this shit.

692
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think it's also we're saying, like

693
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 3: the way that we're talking about this in terms of

694
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 3: his and popularity and reality and you know, in terms

695
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 3: of why it feels like this, it doesn't mean that

696
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: it's there's not just horrible shit happening constantly, right, And

697
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 3: that's the other part of his ability to sort of

698
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: eliminate that, the legitimization part of the spectacle was that

699
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: like that it was to some extent restraining him, right, Like,

700
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: that's the reason why there wasn't just like there were

701
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 3: a bunch of deportations in their Trump there are a

702
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: bunch of deportations under Biden. The thing that's happening now

703
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 3: is not the thing that was happening before, right, Yeah,

704
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 3: the Secretary of the Interior wasn't showing up at like

705
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: five thirty in the morning in a suburb of Chicago

706
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 3: to blow up someone's door and drag a bunch of

707
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 3: American citizens out of their house, Like that was like

708
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 3: not happening yeah before, And that's off. It's just you know,

709
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: it's unbelievably horrifying. And it's also not popular, like even

710
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: even those approval rating numbers, right, like you know, like

711
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: his immigration policy in theory is the most popular thing

712
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: he's doing. And also ICE can't do mass, large scale

713
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 3: raids because if they stay in one place for too long,

714
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: so many people will show up.

715
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: They can't do it.

716
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 3: And you know, and the lightning raids that they've been

717
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 3: doing have been really brutal and really effective, but like

718
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: those are not the tactics a stormtrooper force that broadly

719
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 3: has the popular has popular consents, right, they don't move

720
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: like that. And you know, I talked about this. I

721
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 3: guess it'll be like two weeks ago on Executives Order.

722
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 3: But like people are like stopping these raids in like

723
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: Whetan Like Wheton used to be literally the center of

724
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 3: the base of power of like the Bush administration ral

725
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 3: majority shit for like forty years, this was like the

726
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 3: center of the Christian Right, and they have lost whetan

727
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 3: it's been like electing democrats, and it's not just Latin democrats,

728
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: like the speed of which has moved from electing democrats

729
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: to like a bunch of people showed up and are

730
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 3: stopping like lightning ice raids, which is really impressive, genuinely,

731
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 3: very very impressive organizing. It's very hard to do. Most

732
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 3: times it doesn't work because you can't get there fast enough.

733
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 3: And somehow again like the place that used to be

734
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 3: the capital of the moral majority, it's like Jerry Farwell's

735
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: fucking like home domain, right, like the epicenter of like

736
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 3: of the Christian Right is in.

737
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: Doing the anti ice raid shit like what like and

738
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: this is the thing as we're going on for like

739
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: you know, probably like four or five years, but like

740
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 2: them do it like really serious, very good direct action.

741
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: The entire terrain of the world is shifting beneath us,

742
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: while all of these people constantly try to like paint

743
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: over this like little tiny scaffolding they've set up to

744
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: be like no, no, the ground's still there. There's all

745
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: these holes in the middle of it.

746
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 3: But like you know, we're gonna put us some tarp

747
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 3: that like looks like the sky beneath it.

748
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: It's like, wait, why is the sky down?

749
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 7: Don't ask questions, keep walking exactly.

750
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 4: And I think that's like, I think that's really important

751
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 4: and a thing that I think happens sometimes when I

752
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 4: sort of make this analysis of my friends, I think

753
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 4: they think that I'm saying that like fascism isn't here,

754
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 4: or that like this isn't a fascist regime, or that

755
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 4: like they don't want to like do Nazism like they

756
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 4: very clearly do. Yeah, I announced it has been like

757
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 4: since February. I mean part of what's happened is like

758
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 4: in February, when the dose stuff was going on, I

759
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 4: was like, well, the American Republic is over, Like we'll

760
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 4: never be able to go back, Like now what do

761
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 4: we do? So I think like a lot of a

762
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 4: lot of the disjuncture and the confusion and the craziness

763
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 4: feeling that people are having is because people are coming

764
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 4: to those realizations on separate timelines, because it's really hard

765
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 4: to accept. It's a hard and complicated thing to feel

766
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 4: and to recognize that actually, like this is dying, Like

767
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 4: this is a dying regime and a dying empire, and

768
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 4: like that does not mean it's less dangerous. In fact,

769
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 4: historically it's often more dangerous and it's death throws. And

770
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 4: it does not mean when you and I talk about

771
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 4: him being ineffective, it does not mean that the stuff

772
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: he's doing isn't terrifying. We're both trans women who organize

773
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 4: with other trans women, Like we know about it, okay, y'all,

774
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 4: Like we are dealing with the fallout all the time,

775
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 4: but like the situations that we could be going through,

776
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 4: the situations that they could be achieving that with the

777
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 4: public that they were handed by the Biden industry that

778
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 4: had broken solidarity around COVID, that had created an effective

779
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 4: red scare around Gaza, that had like you know, basically

780
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 4: perpetuated two genocides and gotten liberals to like say that

781
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 4: was normal and good, right, Like that was a very

782
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: very scary public, yeah, to hand to Nazis two now

783
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 4: with nukes, right, And like I think, you know, we

784
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 4: do ourselves a disservice when the only fascist regimes we

785
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 4: think about are Nazism, and we think that like it's

786
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 4: inevitably like going to be just like the Nazis, or

787
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 4: even if we just say, well, it could be more

788
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 4: like Italy. Like there are dozens of different dictatorships, yeah,

789
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 4: across the history. I don't expect everyone to study all

790
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 4: of them, but like, but like it's worth understanding.

791
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 3: Learn a third one, pick one, literally, pick one, fucking

792
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 3: anyone that's got the maid too.

793
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: There are so many like you have you are.

794
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 4: Spoiled for exactly. Yeah, yeah, you could do. You could

795
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 4: do if you you know, pick a decade. You know,

796
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 4: you like the seventies, Go for Swartho Indonesia, You like

797
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 4: the eighties Brazilian military dictatorship, no problem, like, or you

798
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 4: could do Korea in the eighties. You got lots of choices. Oh,

799
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 4: the fifties, go for Green It's no problem, don't worry

800
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 4: about it. The reason that I bring all that up

801
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 4: is just to say that, like, things are really bad,

802
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 4: and if we don't, you know, throw down, this will

803
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 4: successfully build an authoritarian fascist state eventually, just by the

804
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 4: sheer inertia of the power that they have available on

805
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 4: the time that they can wait. But as you're saying,

806
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 4: and as I've been sort of seeing, also, there's tremendous

807
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 4: amounts of resistance it is completely uncovered. It is not

808
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 4: being seen. But because they live in the spectacle that

809
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 4: they themselves have made, they also don't see and understand

810
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 4: their level of resistance. Like they've just organized the FBI,

811
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 4: right they fired about like was it like a fifth

812
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 4: of FBI agents like headed agents, and then like a

813
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: bunch more are now doing like street crime and are

814
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 4: like being put into ice raids, And people talk about

815
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 4: that as being terrifying, and it is terrifying. The desire

816
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 4: they have to do really brutal ice raids and to

817
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 4: use every resource available in them is scary. But also

818
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 4: if they don't have the FBI's eyes on the ball,

819
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: which they clearly don't anymore. They have redirected the FBI,

820
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 4: they are not nearly as cognizant of what's going on

821
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 4: in terms of resistance as they were even six months ago.

822
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 3: No, like if you look at the guy who shot

823
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk, right, this is like Carly Kirk is like

824
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 3: their guy, right that the FBI is so stripped down

825
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 3: right now that with a full court press. The only

826
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 3: reason they caught that guy was because he didn't understand

827
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 3: that discord wasn't private, and he like dropped his gun

828
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 3: and didn't pick it up again, and his dad recognized it, right,

829
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 3: And if he had done those two things, they wouldn't

830
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: have found him, Like they didn't catch him. He turned

831
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: himself in, right, And that's again someone assassinated like their

832
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: guy and they couldn't find him. Like this repressive apparatus

833
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 3: it is really really scary and very good at doing

834
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 3: the thing that it's focused on doing right now, which

835
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 3: is like dragging immigrant families from their homes at like

836
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 3: five in the morning by blowing their fucking doors down

837
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 3: and like dragging them away to a prison.

838
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 4: Right.

839
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: It's not good at anything else. And the thing, right

840
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 3: that is a very very good way to create an

841
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: engine of you know, like immense human misery that that

842
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 3: who's spectacle they can sell, But it's not actually a

843
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: good way to hold together an authoritarian dictatorship. We have

844
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: seen very very successful sort of dictatorships in the last

845
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 3: like twenty thirty years, right, yeah, And you know, like

846
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: they take a bunch of forms. I think, like the

847
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 3: most classically like nineteen thirties Nazi party one is Modi

848
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 3: in India, yep. And Modi India has done the thing

849
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 3: in the sense of like has really really successfully transformed

850
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 3: the consciousness of people in India to this sort of

851
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,479
Speaker 3: like unbelievably unhinged right wing fascist version of like Hindu

852
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: supremacy that hasn't happened here.

853
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 4: Right, You know, it's worth knowing that the RSS, which

854
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 4: is his brown shirts, like has four million people in it.

855
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, right, Like, I mean you know it has million.

856
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 4: They have millions of brown Shirts, right, Like Ice is

857
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 4: having trouble hiring twelve thousand extra agents in a continent

858
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 4: of four hundred million people. Again, this doesn't mean it's

859
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 4: everything's fine, but yeah, like if you look at that,

860
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 4: if you look at Ernola and Turkey, or you look

861
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 4: at Putin and Russia, or even Orbon to a different

862
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 4: degree in Hungary, like they slow rolled it, right, They

863
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 4: went through a few elections that were like slightly sketchy

864
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: but basically normal, like they like, and they just slowly

865
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 4: built power, and it took them a decade to get

866
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 4: to the point where they were openly doing the authoritarian

867
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 4: stuff that Trump was trying to do. And like, again

868
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 4: there's no rules, it might work what Trump is doing,

869
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 4: but like compared to Milay in Argentina, right, who they

870
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 4: all loved so much who came into power similarly to

871
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 4: Trump started throwing truth bombs everywhere, you know, is like

872
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 4: ripped apart and has now had to come hat in

873
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 4: hand begging for a bailout to the United States because

874
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 4: his whole thing, his regime, fell apart within twenty four months.

875
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 3: Yep.

876
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 4: There is ultimately a material limit to what you can do.

877
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 4: You can't just speak reality into existence for that long.

878
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's that's the thing.

879
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: Right.

880
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 3: If it was possible to just speak reality into existence,

881
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 3: we would all be living on a neo conservatism, right.

882
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: There would be like a pure, well functioning oil extracting

883
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 3: American client state in a rock right now. And I

884
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: don't know what the fuck they would have done with

885
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 3: a guinnesson, but like if, if, if you could just

886
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 3: do the thing, And I talked about this on the show.

887
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: I talked about this on the show all the time, right.

888
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: The thing the neo conservatives thought they could do with

889
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 3: evidence based reality thing right, where like they they thought

890
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 3: that what they could do was just instead of observing

891
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 3: reality and creating your positions from it, they thought they

892
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 3: could just purely influence and manipulate reality to become whatever

893
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 3: they wanted it to be and they couldn't, right, Like

894
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 3: where is George Bush right now?

895
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: Right? Like where is Dick Cheney?

896
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 3: Like the Trump administration somehow staggeringly has managed to like

897
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 3: they finally found a war crime so bad that John

898
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: wu the art like the guy who wrote the torture manuals,

899
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 3: was like, wait, hold on, you can't just blow up

900
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 3: random like boats of people in Venezuela, Like what what?

901
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: Like I literally had not even occurred to me that

902
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 3: it was possible for you to commit a war crime

903
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 3: so bad that the guy who up the torture memos

904
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 3: was like, hold on, hold on, hold on, wolla, I

905
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 3: ain't set up for this shit.

906
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 4: Like it's yeah, they're absolutely like unhinged. They're horrible, and

907
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 4: thank god they are so unpopular and so bad at this. Yeah,

908
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 4: because if they were just a little bit better at this,

909
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 4: I think it's very clear what they want.

910
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,479
Speaker 3: We're we're screwed, Yeah, like we go we go under

911
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: like four months, but that hasn't happened because they're not

912
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 3: good at this, and they're tearing apart the very institutional

913
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: apparattus like Disney, Like they're tearing apart the very institutional

914
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 3: lepparttus is that were designed to like propagate them. Like

915
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 3: Trump could have just made peace with Disney, right, Like

916
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 3: Trump could have just used it, you know, like like

917
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 3: basically like the way that every other being, like like

918
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: the way literally the Nazis did right like until like

919
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: literally until they were forced to break it off dream

920
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 3: like world War two, right, which is like used Disney

921
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: as a propaganda apparatus for you.

922
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 4: And Disney was gun shy because of the fight with

923
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 4: the fight with Santas didn't go that well for them, yeah, surprisingly,

924
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 4: you know, like they had some trouble with that, and

925
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 4: so they were gun shy, like going into the administration,

926
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 4: Like they were very quiet, like they were not rocking

927
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 4: the boat. They were making lots of statements about how like,

928
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 4: you know, we support it, Like he didn't have to

929
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 4: goad them into taking a position in the culture war.

930
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 4: Like they were just very glad that they weren't fighting

931
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 4: off Tasantus anymore, and that they weren't fighting off you know,

932
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 4: the Daily Wire, you know, claiming that they were you

933
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 4: know whatever the woke mind virus or whatever the hell,

934
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 4: you know, yeah, like they were just they were just

935
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 4: putting there, keeping their heads down, trying to rebuild after

936
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 4: the disaster of the pandemic, right, like trying to like

937
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 4: get their cruise line back up and like as profitable

938
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 4: as it could be, you know, Like they were they

939
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 4: were working on like they were just doing their thing,

940
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 4: and they were like, no reason Trump should stop that.

941
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 4: There's no reason Trump should spp that. They is what

942
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 4: they thought.

943
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 3: No, it's like they were implementing like a lot of

944
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 3: the culture warses they wanted in terms of like Okay,

945
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: we're going back to white people were never having another

946
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 3: non white character again.

947
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 4: Like shit, like they cancel they're canceling TV shows with

948
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 4: just like queer characters. Like they're just they're just doing

949
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 4: stuff like that. They're doing they're doing everything that the

950
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 4: regime wants. But as you mentioned, he's just sitting there

951
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 4: watching TV and like like throwing his remote around and

952
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 4: like unfortunately his remote like dictates US policy.

953
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 3: M I think that's an important note to close on

954
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 3: because like his remote dictates US policy to the extent

955
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 3: that everyone pretends that it does. And one of the

956
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 3: things that can start happening in the in the end

957
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: stages of these kind of regimes is that like the

958
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 3: levers of power become unglued from the mechanisms of the state.

959
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

960
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 3: Right, so he just like declared that antifas like a

961
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 3: domestic terrorist organization. Right, we're gonna be talking about that

962
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 3: later this week, possibly earlier this week.

963
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 2: Got to know when this episode's coming out.

964
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,959
Speaker 3: But that doesn't do anything in and of itself. He's

965
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 3: just like waving a magic wander round. But if he

966
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 3: doesn't have the repressive apparatus to make that matter, then okay,

967
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 3: then him throwing the remote around isn't like gesturally controlling

968
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 3: the arm of like one of the most sophisticated, what's

969
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 3: supposed to be one of the most fiscated pressed apparatuses ever. Right,

970
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 3: And they rely on both the compliance of the state bureaucracy,

971
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 3: which they've been decently good at pulling in line, but

972
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 3: also they rely at our compliance for this.

973
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: And you don't have to comply with them. That's the fun.

974
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 3: Thing about about existence is that they can't just they

975
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 3: can't just make it real unless you help them.

976
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 4: And as we saw, as you're alreay talking about the

977
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk special, doesn't go up, right, they say, like

978
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 4: the yeah, the COVID vaccines are like, we're going to

979
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 4: restrict them. And most of the pharmacies are just like

980
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 4: just check a box saying you need it, like you know,

981
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 4: like not in every state. But again, like these massive institutions,

982
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 4: they can't really get them in line, So why are

983
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 4: you letting them get you in line?

984
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

985
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 3: And remember, you know, like they had better control of

986
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 3: their institutional apparatuses in twenty twenty and the outcome of

987
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: that was there was a giant uprising and they put

988
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 3: the president and a bunker, a thing that he's still

989
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 3: mad about to this day. Right, even when it looks

990
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 3: like they have total control, they don't. And I don't

991
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 3: know if he's gonna like end up in a Hitler bunker.

992
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 3: But look, as of right now, as it stands, the

993
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 3: record of Trump administration's ending with Trump hiding in a

994
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 3: bunker is one hundred percent. So you know, if if

995
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: if the past is to be a prediction of the future,

996
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 3: we could see it again when all of this ship

997
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 3: goes to hell and the economy collapses and everyone's like, oh,

998
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 3: this was all lie the whole time.

999
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 5: Wow, damn, hey look like you know, and oh god,

1000
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 5: you can say that, But I don't know if we can't.

1001
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,479
Speaker 3: Uh, we're just gonna, we're just gonna, we're just gonna

1002
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 3: put a really long leap over that entire sentence, and

1003
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 3: we're gonna, we're we're gonna leave that sentence as an

1004
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 3: exercise to the reader completing the sentence, just figure out

1005
00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 3: what it was saying, not doing the thing. Okay, this

1006
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 3: this has been It could happen here, Vicky. Where can

1007
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 3: people for you order your book?

1008
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 4: Oh, you can go to Haymarket and that's who's putting

1009
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 4: it out and they have a list of links. You

1010
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 4: can also go to my blue Sky account vickiyacab dot

1011
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 4: besky dot social and you can find a link there.

1012
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and where can people find you and your work?

1013
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 4: Call shiny things dot com. It's the Collective Anarchist Writers

1014
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,959
Speaker 4: or any other acronym you like. C AW. That's where

1015
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 4: I'm working the most regularly.

1016
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: Now, good growth, heming, that's great, that's great.

1017
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 4: It's Corvid based.

1018
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, we love a Corvid based economy.

1019
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me, Amia, Yeah, thanks for

1020
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 4: coming on.

1021
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 2: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media.

1022
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

1023
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 3: cool Zonemedia. Dot com or check us out on the

1024
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1025
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 3: You can now find sources for it could happen here,

1026
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 3: listed directly in episode descriptions.

1027
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening,