1 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal, and unfortunately my co host Tracy Alloway 3 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: is out this week, and it's especially unfortunate because we're 4 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: going to be discussing one of Tracy's favorite topics, and 5 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: that is poker. And of course, as longtime listeners know, 6 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: that's kind of a joke because it is not one 7 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: of Tracy's favorite topics, it's one of my favorite topics, 8 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: and she always reluctantly agrees to UH to do these 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: episodes on this subject. Nonetheless, she would have actually wanted 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: to make this one. It just didn't work scheduling wise, 11 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: because today we're not only speaking to one of the 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: most successful poker players of all time, and in fact, 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: by one measure, the most successful poker player of all time. 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 1: The guest today got his start not by playing poker, 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: but by playing a game that Tracy herself is really 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: interested in genuinely, which is not poker. So without further ado, 17 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: I want to bring in our guest today and talk 18 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: about how he became successful, how he got his start 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: in the game. Bryn Kenny, thank you very much for 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: joining us or joining me. It feels great to be here. 21 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: You were, by one ranking the number one most winning 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: ist tournament poker player of all time. There's this database 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 1: called the Hendon Mob attracts tournament winnings, and you're number 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: one on there right, Yeah, which is pretty cool. I 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: mean actually, for a long time I always said that 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: I would hit number one in poker, And I mean 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: I won the one or chopped the biggest tournament of 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: all time this year, which like catapulted me from number 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: four to number one. So I was looking at this database. 30 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: It's online, it's called the Hendon Mob. You should check 31 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: it out out. And you've won about fifty five million 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: dollars in total tournament money. But you mentioned that tournament. 33 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe this. I thought maybe I was looking 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: at a typo. But you won twenty million dollars in 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: a single tournament and I didn't even realize prize pod 36 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: got this big. Ever, So how is their tournament that 37 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: had a twenty million dollar prize? Yeah, so there's only 38 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: been about three tournaments of all time with about that 39 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: with this prize. This one was run by guys at 40 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: Triton Poker, where pretty much I think for any high 41 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: stakes tournament. The most important thing to draw a good 42 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: attendance or strong attendance is um by having a bunch 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: of v i P players. So they themselves, they made 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: a really good ruling in this one where if you 45 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: were a pro and you wanted to play, you had 46 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: to get an invite from a v i P player, 47 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: like you couldn't just go and play there, which made 48 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: it an exclusive tournament and won that what does it 49 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: mean a v I P player, different guest business man, 50 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: I should said instead, So basically what it was was 51 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: this gigantic buy in tournament. It was like a million 52 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: dollars to buy in. It like a million pounds to 53 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: buy in, million pounds plus fifty thousand pounds given the 54 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: charity to buy in. But the it's a mix of 55 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: poker pros and just like people who have a ton 56 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: of money that probably aren't pros. But like the idea 57 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: of being in a tournament with pros, yeah exactly, But 58 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: then also like the idea where it's fifty fifty pros 59 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 1: to recreational players where usual tournament for high stakes could 60 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: be pros or something, So it makes it much more 61 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: enticing to come and play. Where actually the beginning of 62 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: the tournament. For the first six levels you played with 63 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: only If you were a businessman, you played the only businessman, 64 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: and if you're a pro, you played with only pros, 65 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: and then it mixed in afterwards. This makes sense. So 66 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: if you were to just have a million dollar buy 67 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: in tournament and it were just pros, it's not that 68 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: appealing and it's just people who are really good going 69 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: up against each other. But the businessman gets something out 70 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: of it because they get to play with pros. The 71 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: pros get something out of it because businessmen are probably 72 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: easier money another pros. Yeah, exactly, So a bunch more 73 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: pros will be able to play and sell action pretty 74 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: much because once like a buying gets so big, it 75 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: pretty much comes down to how good the other people 76 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: in the community that buy action think that you are. 77 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: Explain this. So, if a buying is a million dollars 78 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: and you want to enter that tournament, you would sell 79 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: some of your action to investors. So maybe someone buys 80 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: in or buys a piece of you for that tournament 81 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: for fifty or a hundred thousand or whatever it is. 82 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: Talk about that market where a pro sells action. How 83 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: does that work? How do you find the people who 84 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: want to stake you. Yeah, so pretty much. I mean, 85 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: if you're talking about buying pieces and huge tournaments like 86 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: million or two fifty thousand or so, it's like a 87 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: small group of people who invest pretty much, unless if 88 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: you have outside businessman who wants to invest in you 89 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: or stake you, which happens very rare, So pretty much 90 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: the other like best poker players in the world have 91 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: to think that you're one of the best poker players 92 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: in the world. Also, and then there's a whole market 93 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: like a markup scale also where some people will let's say, 94 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: sell to that sell to the tournament at no markup, 95 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: and some people will sell it, uh, let's say at 96 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: one point one premium. So they're everything they're selling, they're 97 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: getting paid at tem percent premium. And this is like 98 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: they're cut of they're expected value. It's like the investor 99 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: and the players sharing whatever they feel like the expected 100 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: value is of that tournament. So in a particularly juicy tournament, 101 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: let's say there's a lot of rich businessmen and there's 102 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: only a handful of pros, and so theoretically all the pros, 103 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: because they're better than the businessmen, have some reason to 104 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: expect that they will be profitable. Because you have access 105 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: to that tournament, you can charge a premium to the 106 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: investor such that maybe they buy ten percent of your 107 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: initial winnings, but they actually pay you eleven percent, and 108 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: so you're kind of pocketing that premium right off the bat, exactly, 109 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: and you're just getting a better price for whatever piece 110 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: you're having of yourself or even there's been cases where 111 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: someone will sell of themselves, wind up with a five 112 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: percent free rollers and pay nothing for the tournament. Got it, now? 113 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: That makes sense? You know? When I was most closely 114 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: paying attention to poker, it was like a lot of 115 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: people it was. There were the poker boom of the 116 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: mid aughts, and then the the World Series became this 117 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: big thing, and those buyings were like I think ten 118 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: tho dollars and a big buying like sometimes I think 119 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: there was it was like a fifty dollar buying. I 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: remember from the World Series. When did this world of 121 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: mega huge buyings emerge where you would have a tournament 122 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: organized and the buying was actually million dollars, Yeah, the millions. 123 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: I think the first one was maybe five years ago 124 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: where they ran a one drop tournament where they got 125 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: a lot of recreational players like g lip Lallerberte ran 126 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: it for his organization and had one drop it was 127 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: called and had a bunch of his friends play and 128 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of other businesses. That's what that's the name 129 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: for the World Series. And last year actually they had 130 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: the I think it will be the last one drop 131 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: since it had pretty much no recreational players, So, I mean, 132 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: it can never survive like that is the thing it 133 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: all comes down to. If you're going to raise the 134 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: stakes for super high, you need to have a few 135 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: guys who are playing for fun pretty much, to make 136 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: it so that people are gonna want to gamble big 137 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: that they have a decent advantage pro poker. It doesn't 138 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: work without frankly, people who are not that good at 139 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: it playing Like it can't just be pros playing against 140 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, I mean then like the best pros 141 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: are just gonna eat the like decent pros. But then 142 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: those guys will stop playing after a little bit too. Yeah, 143 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: exactly has the Mega Buying tournament, you could sort of argue, 144 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: is essentially a market response to the collapse of the 145 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: poker bubble that brought in a lot of sort of 146 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: medium or small dollar people who wanted to play, maybe 147 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: people who uh, you know, they did all right online 148 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: but weren't amazing, or people with a modest amount of 149 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: money that maybe going to Vegas for the tournament was 150 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: kind of a vacation. That market sort of collapsed. So 151 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: in its way, the only real opportunity for like really 152 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: top notch pros is the sort of megabuying level with 153 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: like people with more money than God who want to 154 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: play with guys like you. Yeah, because like I mean, 155 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: when you're younger, you don't even really think about it. 156 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: You spend so much money traveling and playing main events 157 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: where the Biden's five thousand, ten thousand, and unless if 158 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: you're one of like the biggest crushers, you're not really 159 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: going to be doing so well with all the expenses 160 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: that you have to pay. So it's completely different. Once 161 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: you get older, you realize you need to make if 162 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: you're at the top of the game, you want to 163 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: be making more for your time or playing higher stakes 164 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: if it's possible. So, I mean, Try did an amazing 165 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: job where they found a way to make it more 166 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: fun for the recreational players, where they played with half 167 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: field of recreational players. I thought that was a genius 168 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: idea actually, and that's why they instead of I think 169 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: the one the Last one drop had maybe twenty one 170 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: players in the last trite and a million, which was 171 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: even a bit bigger buying uh same rake. I think 172 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: had overdoubled the field, like fifty six players. And I 173 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: think that it will only go up with that because 174 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people who weren't there watched this amazing 175 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: production that they put on also, and it's like, oh, man, 176 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: if I could have went and played, I love poker, 177 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: why shouldn't I go and play? So I think for 178 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: the highest steaks, there's just been a great rise. I 179 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: think maybe seven years ago or so it was the 180 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: first time a hundred k event even happened. And back 181 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: then there would be two big tent k's a year, 182 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: one in Bahamas, one in Monte Carlo. Now there's like 183 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: a twenty five k every week or every other week somewhere. 184 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: Hundre k is at every festival. Now I think it's 185 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: even gonna make a turn to two d fifty k 186 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: buyings towards every festival, maybe two three million dollar buyings 187 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: a year. So does the game change at those levels. 188 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: I mean theoretically it shouldn't. But when there's that much 189 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: money on the line, and when you're looking at potentially 190 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: a twenty million dollar payout or more for the winner, 191 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: does the psychology of the game change, Well, it like 192 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: changes a bit in two ways. Where if you're playing 193 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: a big field of players, you're not really playing against 194 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: the same people all the time. Where if you're playing 195 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: these events, you're playing against the same people all the time. 196 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: So your strategy potentially could be a style that you 197 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: think works well against the style that everybody else is playing. 198 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: And then of course, at the highest stakes, I mean 199 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: you need to look for any type of advantage you 200 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: kind of can. Where I'll even walk into a room 201 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: and feel how all the people are feeling, and the 202 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: people maybe who aren't having a good day, aren't very 203 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: confident that day, Like that's who you really want to 204 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: go after, aren't gonna be thinking, is clear, And the 205 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: guys who come in just like they had enough sleep, 206 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: they've been winning recently. It's like, okay, stay away from 207 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: these guys. Where I would always see it as like 208 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: a jungle. Do you want to go against like the 209 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: other do you really want to hunt against other strongest animals, 210 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: or do you want to go against like the weakest 211 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: animals and like try to play cautious in the other senses. 212 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: So when the ultra high stakes sort of opponent selection 213 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: is a more important facet of the game for me, 214 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: at least, I don't think for most I don't think 215 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: most people really think about it. I think they've geared 216 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: themselves more on a math based g t O style 217 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: perfect strategy. It's like game theory optimal. So this is 218 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: what everybody says that they're playing this game theory optimal 219 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: strategy and studying charts and looking at numbers, which works 220 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: for sure. But the thing is, I just feel like 221 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't work as well as everybody really thinks because 222 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: you would need to input so many different variations of 223 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: how people play to actually figure out what the real 224 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: chart is. So like, for instance, if you're studying a 225 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: chart that says this is the best style to play, 226 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: it's only the best style to play versus the style 227 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: that the numbers are input up against. So let's say 228 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: now another person is playing a completely different style and 229 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: you're playing the same g t O that you think 230 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: is unexploitable and perfect. Yeah, that may be true, but 231 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: you're also going to be playing completely incorrect in some 232 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: scenarios where you're just like not adjusting what your own 233 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: chart should be based on what their range actually is. 234 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: Right Intuitively, if you think about like the old days 235 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: and those uh, those World Series events with thousands of players, 236 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: many of whom sort of came up through online, it's 237 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: probably somewhat easy to play, at least in the early rounds, 238 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: the sort of g t O style and which everyone 239 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: is sort of this generic online player. I imagine in 240 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: a tournament with just fifty people and you can sort 241 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: of identify them all. You can't just take it for 242 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: granted that there's going to be this sort of generic 243 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: optimal play, and that probably I guess what you're saying 244 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: is it requires someone to really shift gears and to 245 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: actually change their style of play because they're just so few, uh, 246 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: such a variation in what you're going to be up against. Yeah, exactly, 247 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: because I mean deep in a tournament, when you're playing 248 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: for so much, it's tough to really just blank out 249 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: that you're not playing for so much and that it's 250 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: a normal day, Like that's the most important thing. When 251 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: I was in the Triton million dollar buy in. I 252 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: kept honestly having to tell myself, hey, look it's a 253 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: normal day, and not even think it's like a normal day. 254 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: You have to tell yourself trick yourself in whatever way. 255 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: How do you do that? How do you trick yourself? 256 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: What's your I mean like breathing and kind of just 257 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: trying to get myself in my own zone and my 258 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: own space where I don't care about anything else that's 259 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: going on. Which when you're getting messages from every single 260 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: person that you know, good luck, and they're all watching 261 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: and you have this big production, shouldn't you turn off 262 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: your phone? Yeah, I mean kind of, I guess. But 263 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: also I'm writing like my mom and grandma like to 264 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: go and watch it, and some friends like to make 265 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: sure that they could watch it. And I don't think 266 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: that really. I mean, when you wake up, I was 267 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: barely sleeping and barely eating. Anyway, I got myself into 268 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: some type of trance I would say, where I didn't 269 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: really care. I gambled way too much than any like 270 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: any feasible person would want to gamble in one tournament, 271 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: especially where like the number of guys would say that 272 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: you maybe make ten or maybe the biggest winner makes 273 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: twenty or thirty percent or something. I just, uh, I 274 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: don't know. When the tournament got announced, I just felt 275 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: like it was a perfect tournament for me, with half 276 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: business men and half pros, and for like the maybe 277 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: four months before, I kind of told myself that this 278 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: is a tournament for me and just prepared myself in 279 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: every way. Let's say my dad would do research, and 280 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: my dad and girlfriend would do research and find me 281 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: like brain pills that I should take to keep like 282 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: optimal have changed my diet completely. Just go and take 283 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: a road trip, turn my phone off for a bit. 284 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: Just I think the most important thing is if you're 285 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: gambling for huge amounts, are in a spot where you're 286 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: taking huge risks, So trading is the same. You have 287 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: to feel your best and your most relaxed, and whatever 288 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: makes you feel your best and most relaxed is exactly 289 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: what you should do. Because you're gonna make big gambles 290 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: or big moves not I mean, it's always a gamble, 291 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: even if it's a great decision. In trading and poker, 292 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to just feel good no matter what 293 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: and be able to take a hit no matter what. 294 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: Let's go back. Mentioned in the intro that Tracy, it's 295 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: really sad that she's not here because although she's normally 296 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: a little cool on the poker episode, you have a 297 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: background that she was really interested in when she saw 298 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: and that is you started prior to playing poker as 299 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: you played the card game Magic, the Gathering, and you're 300 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: pro at that, right. I mean, it's considered what explained 301 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: to people who haven't played that, the sort of essence 302 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: of that card game, which is its own cultural phenomenon, 303 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: and the crossover skills that you had with that game 304 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: that lent themselves to the poker table. Yeah, so Magic 305 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: was like a great game. I played mostly from twelve. 306 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: I don't remember if it was twelve or thirteen that 307 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: I started playing until I turned sixty and there was 308 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: a junior super series who was called So It's all 309 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: people fifteen and under. So actually I traveled just from 310 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: like Long Beach I was living in. I would travel 311 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: to Brooklyn and New York City and New Jersey and 312 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: sometimes Washington, d C. Even my mom would take me 313 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: to and baltim More and fly to Florida even and 314 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: San Diego just for these magic events where it's a car. 315 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: It's like a strategy card game. I would say it's 316 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: like chess with cards, but a lot of interchangeable factors 317 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: and more luck than chess instead of because it's hard 318 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: to really compare it to anything, because the other comparison 319 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: is to like a Pokemon or a Yugo, where it's 320 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: not really the same at all. There's not much strategy, 321 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: or there's some strategy in these games, but way more 322 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: strategy in Magic, where the most important thing I think 323 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: that it did was it taught me to just play 324 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: a game just to have in my head just to win, 325 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: to make the best decision, and have your goal just 326 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: to serve, to accumulate to win, not care about anything 327 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: else where I had already had my mind set after 328 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: playing Magic, once I started playing poker, where I was 329 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: pretty much desensitized with the money and just to win, 330 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: because intuitively everyone plays games to win. So what do 331 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: you mean specifically when you say get yourself in a 332 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: mindset just to win it? Well, poker, when you get 333 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: into your first spots where you're playing big pots or 334 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: in tournaments where the pride where the page jumps are 335 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: very big page jumps, you find yourself in uh, in 336 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: a situation you've never seen before. And even if it's 337 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: a situation that you've seen before, they're gonna be times 338 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: in life when you are doing not doing as well, 339 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: and when you're deep in a tournament you see these 340 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: big amounts of money up top. If you think about 341 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: the money that you're playing for, you're putting yourself at 342 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: a disadvantage if you're playing against someone like me. Because 343 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: I'm trying to scout exactly that, I'm trying to see 344 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: the people who it feels like they are playing less 345 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: hands and they're thinking more about the money and just 346 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: going up in page jumps, because it's very easy to 347 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: push these guys off their hands with big bets on 348 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: the river. These when you're talking about the people you're spotting, 349 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: are these people who are saying trying to backdoor themselves 350 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: into the money just by surviving. They see when the 351 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: cutoff is going to be, They know how many more 352 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: players need to be eliminated before it's money, And so 353 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: in other words, the big opportunities are exploiting those people 354 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: who get anxious around the bubble. Is that sort of 355 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: what you're saying around the bubble, And also when the 356 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: page jumps become large amounts of money at final tables 357 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: and high roller events. Also with magic are the tournament 358 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: structure the same way is that, Well, the different thing 359 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: is in poker you would just have chips and accumulate 360 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: chips and magic, you would play one on one rounds 361 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: versus people, and then at the end of however many 362 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: rounds are, it would formulate into a top eight like 363 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: a playoff pretty much. Two questions. So, first, when did 364 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: you realize playing magic? I assumed you maybe just started 365 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: playing against friends like most people did, that you were 366 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: like better than them. What would you attribute like, what 367 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: did you have even when you were just sort of 368 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: an amateur just picking it up that you would say 369 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: like made the difference between you versus them. So it 370 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: was very random where I got I got introduced to 371 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: magic at a family picnic where one of my cousins 372 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: brought some magic starter decks and I asked my mom, 373 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: I guess at the picnic, hey, I wanted to uh 374 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: get these cards, And I think it was because I 375 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: had already um connection to cards where before I could 376 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: read my mom and dad. They said that they would 377 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: show me seventy five different baseball cards and I knew 378 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: the name and position of all the people before I 379 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: could read. So one of the things for sure that 380 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: it has helped me in magic and in pokers that 381 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: I have a phenomenal memory, better than I've ever seen 382 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: anyone else have. Where I've heard other people having photographic memories, 383 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: I can pretty much see like a video replaying in 384 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: my head, where not only do I remember hands that 385 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: I play against people or tendencies that they have, I 386 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: remember even who's at the table and saw these type 387 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: of hands. So the way that they think of out me. 388 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: So in magic I got very good, I would say, 389 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: just because I pretty much go all in with anything 390 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: that I'm interested in. So all I would really think 391 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: about was making different at school. I remember, I would 392 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: just be writing different deck lists that I would be 393 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: making in class, not really care about all in. You 394 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: mean in your life, like you devoted yourself to. Yeah, 395 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: like I mean poker. I started playing poker mostly at seventeen, 396 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: and from seventeen to twenty nine, I pretty much played 397 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: every waking hour I had. Uh, even when I would 398 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: travel around to other countries, I wouldn't do anything else 399 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: other than play poker. Didn't take a single vacation. Literally 400 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: I had only one focus where even friends of mine 401 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: or one friend was telling my mom when we were 402 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: having lunch that at eighteen years old, I would say 403 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: that I was going to be the best poker player 404 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: in the world. And one thing that I say is 405 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: that I just wanted it more than everybody else. I 406 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: just put my whole life into it. When I was 407 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: winning a lot, I played all day every day. When 408 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: I was when I lost everything, I was playing all 409 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: day every day. In the middle, I was playing all 410 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 1: day every day. I would just wake up, go straight 411 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: to a computer back in the online days, play online 412 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: all day. How do you distinguish that between someone who's 413 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: just a gambling at it. There are a lot of 414 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: people who did that and then they lost everything, including 415 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: like their family and their entire future. Yeah. Yeah, I 416 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: mean it's a tough line for sure, But it's like 417 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: a skill that it takes a long time to build. 418 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: So if you just go in and start gambling at 419 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: high stakes in an early stage, when you have a 420 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: bunch of money, it's very likely that you're gonna lose 421 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: this money. So it's completely different Where I started with 422 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: no money, and I would build it up and then 423 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: lose it all. You would have to win and then lose, 424 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: So you're feeling like the sense of winning and losing, 425 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: and to be able to win, you're gonna need to 426 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: put in a lot of work to be ahead of 427 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: everybody else because a lot of other smart people who 428 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: are playing cards, if you have money already, it's like 429 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: it's a danger danger zone them pretty much, because you 430 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: can play high stakes very easily. You can lose the house, 431 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: you can lose whatever amount of money, just like casinos. 432 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: I mean I have friends who say that they're friends 433 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: have lost two hundred million, five hundred million US like 434 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: whole savings in casinos in Asia. So yeah, it's very depressing. 435 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: So this is, uh, this actually gets to an aspect 436 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: of poker, professional poker that's highly relevant to the investing audience. 437 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: And this is the concept of risk management and bank 438 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: roll management. And you talked about how you would go 439 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: up and then you would lose it all and then 440 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: go up some more and then lose it all. What 441 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: have you learned over time about bank roll management so 442 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: that you don't lose it all? Because ultimately, I mean, 443 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: you're able to build back up, but from the you know, 444 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: the investing game and trading offense. If you lose it all, 445 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: you're just out of the game and that's it. Yeah, 446 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: I mean I tell everybody when and when I see 447 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: someone young and it's someone that I like, I try 448 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: to always tell them, hey, like, just you have to 449 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: protect your money because it's like your most valuable asset. 450 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: When you have money, it's very easy to build on 451 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: the money if you're making good decisions, if you're a 452 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: smart person, but it's very hard to turn no money 453 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: into a lot of money where people couldn't even be 454 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: and have done the same situation that I've done, where 455 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: most of the time, if you lose all the money 456 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: that you have, you're just out of business. Yeah, yeah, 457 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,239 Speaker 1: how are you going to do anything else? I just 458 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: did a lot of business with a lot of people 459 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: where I would stake them or I would help them 460 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: out and give them loans before or they would buy 461 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: pieces of me. And since my word was always hundred 462 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: percent and I made a lot of money for people, 463 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: I would be able to get loans that were unheard 464 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: of pretty much where there were points at twenty two 465 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: years old where I owed friends half a million dollars 466 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: with I mean for the real world with no credit, 467 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: no assets, and somehow able to borrow half a million 468 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: bucks and not have people even really ask you for 469 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: it is pretty unheard of. Before we move on, I 470 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: have to ask you a question, and at any level 471 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: these staking arrangements, how formalized are they? So if I 472 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: were to stake you and one of these big tournaments, 473 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: would we like sign a whole contract and everything so 474 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: that there's no ambiguity or is it just like trust? 475 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: And I mean it's mostly just trust and respect, except 476 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: if I mean, if you're doing a big deal, maybe 477 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: someone will have you sign a contract, or if you're 478 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: doing business with someone who's a business man where they're 479 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: used to always signing contracts for any type of deal 480 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: that they have. Lots of poker deals have just been 481 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: from just trust, and I mean that's huge mistake. But 482 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: it all comes down to a lot of when you're 483 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: a kid and you start making a lot of money, 484 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: of course you're gonna make bad financial decisions. Where I 485 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: was staking a lot of my friends, a lot of 486 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: people that you thought were your friends and wouldn't sign 487 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: a contract and in the end of the day they 488 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 1: would just lie straight to your face. About things to you. 489 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: So you've made in tournament poker or something like fifty 490 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: five million dollars. Obviously you have a lifestyle and travel 491 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: to supporting all that. Do you feel at this point 492 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: that there's like, there's no way you could ever go 493 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: bust again? I mean, it's funny though, because going into 494 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: this year, I had let's say, twenty five million in 495 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: cash is and I had a negative bank roll already. 496 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: So you did, You're you're in debt even with yeah, 497 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: because I had actually my first losing year ever last year. 498 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: So let's say on staking arrangement, I think I was 499 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: down like three point five million going into this year 500 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: and owed maybe another million bucks on the side from that, 501 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: and actually I wound up in a in a spot 502 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: where I think most people would have taken the easier route, 503 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: where at the start of this year, the guy who 504 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: stakes me, he's very wealthy businessman and we became good friends, 505 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: pretty much tells me, Hey, the three point five that 506 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: you're down, I think it's an insurmountable amount of money. 507 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: I'm fine, we should just we can wipe it away 508 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: and start the number at zero. But the thing is, 509 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: I've been in unfair business deal before where I got 510 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: screwed over completely and I've always been completely fair. But 511 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: actually it really made me think in every deal that 512 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: I make with anyone, I always wanted to think on 513 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: both sides and make sure that it's fair, that I'm 514 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: not like using leverage or taking advantage of anyone, which 515 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: like other people will do so as soon as he 516 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: tells me this, the thing is, if I take this, 517 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: it means I took a completely unfair deal. Like it's 518 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: easy to justify that the money doesn't matter to them 519 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: or so, but for me, it's more about morals where 520 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: I just don't do it all. I never give up 521 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: when things are bad. Actually I told him, I said, hey, look, 522 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: don't worry, I'm not going to do this, but let's 523 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: just continue at how it is, and I'm going to 524 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: be number one in the world again this year. And 525 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. So wait, just going into this 526 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: starting into this year, before this, when was the twenty 527 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: mill and dollar cash by the way, it was in 528 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: the beginning of August. Okay, so up until up until that, 529 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: even I won a lot, Like from January to August 530 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: of two thousand nineteen, I had one a lot and 531 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: already cleared that number. But even still going into twenty nine, 532 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: technically you're like busted. Well, I mean worse than busted. 533 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: Like I had to pay. I had to pay my 534 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: next three and a half mill give or take a 535 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: few hundred thousand in winnings from poker, and I owed 536 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: money on the side too, I was, So I was 537 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: way worse. I guess you could say worse or better 538 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: because at the same sense, even if I'm down three 539 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: and a half million, I get to play large buying tournaments. 540 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: If my mindsets good and I get back to winning ways, 541 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: I can win a big tournament for five million and 542 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: have money. Well, at that point, I've almost had money 543 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: again since I owed a million on the side. So 544 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean no offense if someone's listening to this for 545 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: advice of like bankroll management. I mean, obviously your life 546 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: is in trajectory, has been extraordinary, But it doesn't sound 547 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: like you couldn't get back there again. Yeah, because I 548 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: mean I was. But it sounds like you really like 549 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: the massive swings. Is that fair to say it was? Yeah? 550 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: I didn't mind the massive swings at all, because were 551 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: you stressed out? I mean, only three and a half 552 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: million dollars and not having anything. No Actually, to be honest, 553 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: to start this year, I felt like amazing. I mean, 554 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: the thing is, it's all relative. So as long as 555 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: I can borrow money on like the number that I 556 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: owe on the side to live whatever lifestyle that makes 557 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: you happy, and that's like an agreed upon thing and 558 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: no problem, then life is still fine. You don't necessary see, 559 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: it's all about what you create a stress in your head. 560 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: I feel like where you can just eliminate things completely 561 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: and just take it like it's breakfast, where it destroys 562 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: other people, you just I mean I accept whatever wherever 563 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: I'm at and just kind of have have trained myself 564 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: to have the mindset that you can only you can't 565 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: change the path. You can only make good decisions in 566 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: the present moment, and sometimes, like a big mistake, it 567 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: will take a long time to get you back to 568 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: where you want to be. It's all about changing your 569 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 1: mindset to where you maybe we're playing huge stakes before 570 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: a few months ago, and now you have to make 571 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: a few hundred bucks a day just to like come 572 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: back where. I mean, I've been in smaller ones where 573 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: I had let's say, three million dollars and six months 574 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: later I had no money and my friends half a 575 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: million dollars. And at that stage you can't play high 576 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: stakes anymore. You have to train your brain that you 577 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: have to try to make five hundred bucks a day 578 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: and then try to raise it a little, a little 579 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: bigger and bigger, just to get yourself back to knock 580 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: where you were, just to build yourself back to comfortable 581 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: or more comfortable, and just take small winds. So do 582 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: you ever think about just stopping. I mean, I assume 583 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: you're doing you have several million. Now, after you're a 584 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: huge win, you could just like or like play for fun. 585 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing. To get so good at anything, 586 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: you have to love it also, So I mean, every 587 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: every athlete who's the best at what they do, they 588 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: all love it. Because you have to play all day 589 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: every day. You have to make to be great at 590 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: anything that a lot of other people want to be 591 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: great at, you just have to want it more than 592 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: they do. I mean, you could say that there's some 593 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: like natural born talent and everything. There are reasons that 594 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: make me good at poker that maybe the ultra high 595 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: stakes make what used to be considered high stakes seem 596 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: boring too, Like I'm thinking about like like beer drinkers 597 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: who drink really high alcohol content I p s. And 598 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: then they can't go back to drinking normal beers because 599 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: they can't even taste it. Just the thought of buying 600 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: into a ten thousand dollar tournament just bore you at 601 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: this point, even and even I start to think about 602 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: like it doesn't really don't. Yeah, well, I mean I 603 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: played so much anyway, so I was transitioning more to 604 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: playing less and going to places that I want to play, 605 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: and not just going to let's say, uh Florida, for instance, 606 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: they have nice tournaments where the buyings thirty, ten thousand, 607 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: fifty thousand. I don't really have any interest ever to 608 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: go there again and play. What about cash games against 609 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: high rollers? Do you play that? Because I spent so 610 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: much time playing tournaments, I would just want to rest 611 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: my brain for for a time. Where some people play 612 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: all night tournaments cash games, For me, I feel my 613 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: sleep is so important actually, so I try to always 614 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: make sure unless if I'm like for the million, I 615 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: was very antsy, so I didn't sleep much, maybe five 616 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: six hours, but usually I'll try to get eight or 617 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: nine hours. Make sure I have rest and just feel 618 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: good because I feel like it's a long day of 619 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: of a mental battle where the way that you're going 620 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: to think and do your best is if your body 621 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: is not just your mind. Body and mind is most 622 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: prepared just to sit there and feel good and play good. 623 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: So what's your next goal? Like, what do you what 624 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: are you trying to accomplish? Now that's tough. I think 625 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: my next goal is actually to be healthier and try 626 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: to have a healthier lifestyle, because I mean, hitting number 627 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: one all time winner, yeah, it makes you Poker is 628 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: like okay, well, I mean I did what I set 629 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: out and said that I was going to do for 630 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: so long. It's even it takes a little time even 631 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: to accept it in your head that that's reality, because 632 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: so much of poker is kind of convincing yourself like 633 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: something and getting into a mindset where nothing really matters 634 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: and you're so focused on exactly what you're focused on, 635 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: where when I was younger, I would say that plays 636 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: a negative effect where you don't really think about you 637 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: can't really think about many things that are going on 638 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: because you're so focused on one thing that everything else 639 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: takes a hit. Pretty much on that note. I think 640 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: that's a good place to stop. Bryn Kenny, the number 641 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: one earningist poker player of all time on the Hendon 642 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,439 Speaker 1: Mob database. Thank you very much for joining us. Yeah, 643 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: great being here. Nice talking to you. Yeah, that was great. 644 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: Thank you much. Well, I'm sad that Tracy wasn't here, 645 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: but I can't wait till she hears uh this episode. 646 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: You know, I don't really have any extra thoughts. You 647 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: heard it all there, so I'll just sign off. This 648 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm 649 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: Joe Wisn'tal. You could follow me on Twitter and you 650 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: should follow Tracy at Tracy Alloway. Check out Bryan on 651 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: Twitter at Bryan Kenny, and be sure to follow our 652 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: producer on Twitter, Laura Carlson. She's out Laura. I'm Carlson, 653 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: as well as today's guest producer tofor for has who 654 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: have filtered today, He's at for has T, and be 655 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: sure to follow all of Bloomberg's podcasts on Twitter at 656 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening.