1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: It is a pretty surreal experience to read about yourself 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: in third person, something that has been written by a 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: former lover in which you're murdered. 4 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about 5 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 6 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: change everything. This is part two of Hannah's story. If 7 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: you haven't heard part one, you should go back and 8 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: listen to that first. It was the night before the 9 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 2: launch of Hannah's third novel. She was crashing at her 10 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: friend Hughes place in New York. Her husband Patrick had 11 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 2: stayed with him the week before. Hannah and Hugh were 12 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: up late talking and out of the blue, h made 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: a strang. He said that Hannah should be more suspicious 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 2: of people. 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 3: In her life. 16 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: And I said, is this about Patrick? And he said yes. 17 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: And I said, did something happen when Patrick was in 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: New York last week without me? And he said yes. 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: At this point, my heart just dropped and I feel 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: like I'm in a vomit. I said, did Patrick have 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: sex with someone? And Hugh said yes. And I said 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: did he have sex with Trish? And he said yes. 23 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: Her husband Patrick had an affair with Trish, her best friend, 24 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 2: from grad school, the same woman who set them up 25 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: in the first place. 26 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: I think if it had been a stranger, it would 27 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: have been a really unfortunate cry for help. But when 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: he chose the person that I've had like second most 29 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: intimate conversations with in my life, that clouded anything that 30 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: we might have recovered. 31 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 2: Out of all the people he could have cheated with, 32 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: he chose Trish, Hannah's first true friend, her confidante. 33 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,839 Speaker 3: But Trisha chose Patrick too. 34 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: Her betrayal felt so intentional and possibly like it was 35 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: a long time coming. 36 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: She thought back to the early days of their friend group, 37 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: like that night when Trish reminded Hannah that Trish and 38 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: Patrick were friends first. But Hannah had never worried about 39 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: Trish and Patrick's dynamic. 40 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: It didn't matter because she was married, and more importantly, 41 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: it didn't matter because I knew Patrick worshiped me. 42 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: Now Hannah was questioning everything she knew about the two 43 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 2: most important people in her life. It was devastating, But 44 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: sitting in Hugh's apartment, Hannah was numb. 45 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: And I said, I have to make a phone call. 46 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: I'll be right back, And I went up to his 47 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: roof and I called my sister, and I said, guess 48 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: who's having an affair. 49 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: Hannah told her sister everything she knew and then went 50 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: right into planning mode. 51 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: She was like, what do you need me to do? 52 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: And I said, I just need you to, you know, 53 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: keep your phone charged and if you could handle like 54 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: telling mom, I'm not taking phone calls right now. 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: She needed to compartmentalize and be alone. She hung up 56 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: the phone and walked back down to Hugh's apartment. 57 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: He's like, did you did you talk to Patrick? And 58 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: I said no, no. I called my sister and he 59 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: was like, what are you going to do next? And 60 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: I was like, well, right now, I'm going to go 61 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: to bed because I've got a book launch tomorrow, so 62 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: let's do that. And I could tell that I was 63 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: freaking him out because I wasn't crying. 64 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: Tomorrow was a big day. She just needed to get 65 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: through the night. She went to bed, still trying to 66 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: wrap her head around the news. 67 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: I woke up just bolt upright awake at five in 68 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: the morning, sat in bed, waited till six Hughes alarm 69 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: went off. He got up, was like, how are you? 70 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: And I said, I'm fine. I'm going to make a 71 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: phone call here in a second. He's like, okay, I'm 72 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: going to take a shower. And the person I called 73 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: was Trish. Whatever the reason, she was the person I 74 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: felt like I needed to confront. 75 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 2: It was six o five in the morning, and Trish 76 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: picked up the phone. 77 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: She said, hey, hey, you're in New York, right and 78 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: I said yeah, and she said I'll see you tonight 79 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: at the book launch and I said yep, uh huh. 80 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: Almost immediately, Trish could sense that something was wrong. She 81 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 2: asked her what was going on. 82 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: And I said, well, I think something's happened to Patrick. 83 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: And she said, oh, no, is he okay? And I said, no, 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: I don't think he is okay. I think he's had 85 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: sex with someone. And she said no, who do you 86 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: think it is? And I said, I think he had 87 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: sex with you and she said no, why do you 88 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: think that? And I said, if you're gonna lie, I'm 89 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: not doing this and I hung up the phone. She 90 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: called me back thirty seconds later. 91 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: Trish admitted it She and George weren't really together anymore so. 92 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: The week before, when Patrick was in town, the two 93 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: of them slept together. 94 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: Trish explained, she said he did this to drive a 95 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: wedge between us, and I said no, no, no, no no. 96 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 3: And when Hannah didn't buy. 97 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: That, she said, he told me that you've always been 98 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: jealous of me. And I said no, no, no, no no. 99 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: Trish was grasping at straws. 100 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: I was so clear minded. I just kept my wits 101 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: about help me. And I didn't cry and I didn't yell. 102 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: And I said, thank you for letting me know, by 103 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: the way, you are not to come tonight. If I 104 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: see you, I will lose my shit. 105 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: With that, Hannah ended the call. By this time, it 106 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 2: wasn't even six point thirty in the morning. Hugh left 107 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 2: for work, leaving her alone in the apartment, and it 108 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: was around noon when she got a call from Patrick. 109 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: He said, well, I heard you talked to Trish and 110 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: I said yes, and he said so and I said, okay, 111 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: I'll do the work. Did you have sex with Trish? 112 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: He said yes, more than once. Yes. Do you think 113 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: you're in love with her? Yes? I said, thank you 114 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: so much for being honest with me. I will see 115 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: a lawyer on Monday. I want the house, I want 116 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: the car, I want the dog. He said, did you 117 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: rehearse that? And I said nope. But It's pretty good, 118 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: isn't it. 119 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: Patrick told her he was getting on the next trained 120 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 2: to New York to talk things out, but Hannah was 121 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: done trying to fix things. 122 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: There is nothing to talk about. You had sex with 123 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: the person who introduced us, the person I consider my 124 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: best friend. I will never have sex with a man 125 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: who has had sex with her. There's literally nothing to discuss. 126 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: And he said, well, we'll talk about it when I 127 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: come home. And at this point, still not crying, I 128 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: did become somewhat like laughing hysterical. I was like, ho, ho, 129 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: you don't have a home anymore. If you are anywhere 130 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: near me tonight, I will scream. 131 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 2: Hannah was surprisingly calm. After all, she still had her 132 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: book launch that night. She needed to stay on autopilot. 133 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: She didn't have time to grieve. After she got off 134 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: the phone with Patrick, she kept moving. 135 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: I had five hours to kill and I was getting 136 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: a divorce, and I wanted to go shopping, and so 137 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: I went shopping. I bought myself a brand new miniskirt 138 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: and a brand new top. 139 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: She tried not to think about Trish and Patrick, but 140 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: as she walked around New York. 141 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: I had a sudden fear about STDs, and so I 142 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: sent the two of them a text message and I said, 143 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: I need to know if I need to get an 144 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: STD test. And she wrote me back and she said, no, 145 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: I told you, it just happened. We didn't realize what 146 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: close friends we were. And she started texting me this 147 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: really long text message, and at some point Patrick wrote, 148 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: stop texting Trish. 149 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: Trish wasn't the only one blowing up Hannah's phone. 150 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: I'm getting phone calls from Patrick's parents saying no, no, no, 151 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: you guys are going to work this out. And I 152 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: was like, no, no, no, Let me buy my mini skirt, 153 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: go back to Hugh's apartment. 154 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: Change And then she went her book launch. 155 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 3: Despite the day she had. The event went well. 156 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: She got up on stage and read from her new novel, 157 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: acting as if nothing was wrong. Afterwards, her agent and 158 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: editor asked her to go out and celebrate. 159 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 3: They had no idea about the affair, so. 160 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: Hannah told them, and both of them just stared at 161 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: me for a second and they were like, wait, why 162 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: are you here? And I was like, well, I'm here 163 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: because I had a book launch and they're like, oh, 164 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: but you were so funny just now on stage and 165 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: I was like yeah, and they were like oh. No. 166 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: One knew what to say to her, mostly because on 167 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: the outside she seemed fine, good even still, she wanted 168 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: to be around her people that night, so she went 169 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: out with Hugh and a couple of her other friends. 170 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 1: We had this great dinner and nobody is talking about it. 171 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: And then finally, at like midnight, I mean, the restaurant's 172 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: still open. We've had a couple bottles of wine. Hugh 173 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: said something, and I just started bawling. And then Hugh said, Okay, 174 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: there it is. There we go. 175 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: All of the emotions, the sadness, hurt, anger, confusion hit it. 176 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: Once the floodgates were finally open. She was still crying 177 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: at three am. 178 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: When Patrick called me again and he was crying. He 179 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: had gotten on a train and he had come to 180 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: New York City and he was calling me from Trisha's apartment. 181 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: Hannah had just found out that her husband had been 182 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: having an affair with her best friend in a twenty 183 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: four hour period. She confronted both of them, asked for 184 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: a divorce, and launched a novel. It had been one 185 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: of the longest days of Hannah's life. And then at 186 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: three am, the phone rang. It was her husband Patrick. 187 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: He was with Trish and they'd been drinking, and I 188 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: could not believe that he was calling me from her apartment. 189 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: He wanted to talk to me about how dramatic I'd 190 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: been and how we would talk about this. 191 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 2: He told Hannah that their marriage could survive this. All 192 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: the while Trish, the woman he said he loved just 193 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: hours before, was in the next room. 194 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 3: It was clear to. 195 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: Hannah that no matter what promises Patrick made, he. 196 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: Was going to continue seeing her. 197 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 2: Hannah told Patrick to give her space, so Patrick's stay 198 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: to New York to figure things out, and he stayed 199 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: with Trish. Meanwhile, Hannah had to keep going. She needed 200 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: to keep promoting her book. The next morning, she left 201 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: for DC for another book reading, but now she was 202 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: having trouble holding it all together. 203 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: On the train ride down, I couldn't stop crying. I 204 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: was so disgusting. I had to get clothes out of 205 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: my luggage. So I pull out this shirt and I'm 206 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: wiping my face with it, and I feel like I 207 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: look like I'm contagious. And the train is packed, and 208 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: there's this lovely man and he's got this gorgeous suit on, 209 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: like beautifully put together, perfect specimen of New York City 210 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: sitting next to me, and I am trying so hard 211 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: to make myself small, and I just keep leaning closer 212 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: and closer to the window because I'm so disgusting. 213 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: The whole ride down, Patrick continued to text and call 214 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: her she was falling apart. Those around her couldn't help. 215 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: But notice in Philly, this man stands up, who I 216 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: have just assumed I am like a leoper to this guy. 217 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: And he gets his bag and I think, finally I 218 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: can spread out and be gross and not worry about 219 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: touching anyone. And he puts his hand on my shoulder 220 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: and I really thought he was gonna yell at me 221 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: or say like, do you know how disgusting you are? 222 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: And I looked up at him and he said. 223 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 4: Said, whatever it is, it's gonna be okay, and if 224 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 4: it's not, there are probably people who love you. 225 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: And I just like. 226 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 4: Lost it all over again because he was so nice, 227 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 4: he was so generous, and when he said that, I 228 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: just thought, I love people. People are just the most 229 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 4: amazing things in the world. He was such a gift. 230 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: It was a moment of kindness when she needed it 231 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 2: the most. After DC Hannah finally went back home to Kentucky, 232 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: and as promised, she saw a divorce attorney right away. 233 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: Patrick was in denial. 234 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: He kept insisting that the marriage wasn't over, and I 235 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: just kept moving forward as much as I could. 236 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: But eventually Patrick had to come back to Kentucky because he. 237 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: Still had a job at the same school where I 238 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: was working. 239 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: It was difficult to fully disentangle their lives. For ten years, 240 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: they'd built their worlds around each other. 241 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: Until we weren't. We'd always been sort of connected at 242 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: the hip. You know, all of our colleagues would say, 243 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: you guys do everything together. You're always together. 244 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 3: Even though she was putting one foot in front of 245 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: the other. 246 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 2: She was taking the divorce really hard. Patrick had been 247 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: her person. She missed him, and she didn't have the 248 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: luxury of space from him. She still ran into him 249 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: on campus. So a few months after the divorce was finalized, 250 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: they started grabbing coffee. 251 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: We were able to maintain some amount of a friendship 252 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: for a little while. 253 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: It felt a little like those early days when the 254 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: two of them were just friends, playing scrabble and coffee shops. 255 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: They would talk about how things were going in their careers. 256 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: As months went by, they even began talking about their 257 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: new relationships. Hannah started dating another professor at their university, 258 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: and Patrick remained with Trish. One time, he invited Hannah 259 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: to grab drinks with him and Trish, and. 260 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: Of course I was thinking, this is great. I'm just 261 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: going to show them that I do not care. So 262 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: I got drinks with them, and when it was over, 263 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: they went to another bar and I offered them a ride, 264 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: dropped them off, and I went home. 265 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: Looking back, she's still confused as to why she said yes, 266 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: because practically no time had passed between their divorce and 267 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: their friend and soon boundaries began to blur. Patrick started 268 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: making a lot of requests of Hannah. Once, in the 269 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: middle of the night, he called her on a drive. 270 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: He was on his way to see Trish. 271 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: He was crying and I asked him if he was 272 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: safe to drive and if he needed to pull over, 273 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: and he said, I just need you to promise me 274 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: that we're always going to be friends, because if it's 275 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: we can't be friends, if I stay with her, I'll 276 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: break up with her. I need you in my life. 277 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: And I said, don't break up with her. We'll always 278 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: be friends. And I knew that I was lying. I 279 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: told him what I thought he needed to hear in 280 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: order to be safe. 281 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: It was an unhealthy friendship, but it did have one rule. 282 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: Hannah made Patrick promise that if things ever got serious 283 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: with him and Trish, he would tell her. 284 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: I never wanted to hear about something secondhand, and he 285 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: said that he would never let that happen. 286 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: He promised. Then the following Christmas. 287 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: My sister pulled me aside and said, I have to 288 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: tell you something. Trishan Patrick got married. And I wanted 289 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: to be the one to tell you, because it was 290 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: pretty clear that he wasn't going to tell you. When 291 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: classes resumed that spring, he sent me an email and said, coffee, 292 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, like we had been doing. And I said sure, 293 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: And I assumed that at this coffee he would tell 294 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: me that they'd gotten married. And I met him for 295 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: coffee and we talked for an hour and he was 296 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: wearing the ring, but he never said a word. He 297 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: never told me. I left thinking, whatever we just did, whatever, 298 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: Like weird anti flirtation that we're doing with him wearing 299 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: a ring and us laughing in a coffee shop while 300 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: he's not telling me. The most hurtful thing. I just 301 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: didn't need it. 302 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: It felt manipulative, cowardly, and it was hurting her. She 303 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: was finally ready to cut him off. Throughout their whole separation, 304 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: Hannah seemed to be doing really well. 305 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: Everyone would say, Oh, you're so much lighter now, you're 306 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: letting yourself have fun again. Everyone said that I was 307 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: just so much better, and I told them they were right, 308 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: that I was just so happy and it was such 309 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: a relief. 310 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: She would smile and agree, but in reality, that couldn't 311 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: be further from the truth. 312 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: This was when my eating disorder came back. I'd been 313 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: with Patrick for ten years, and I'd forgotten how to 314 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: eat by myself, how to do a meal alone, So 315 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: it was really easy to you go into starvation mode. 316 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: Hannah's writing also took a hit. She was under contract 317 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: to write a fourth novel. It was the first time 318 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: in her career where she couldn't meet her deadlines. 319 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: When I was writing this fourth book, I was very 320 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: aware of Hannah sitting at desk in front of computer, 321 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: making character move from point A to point B in 322 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: order to get to the next plot. Ce that made 323 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: me feel terrible. 324 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 2: Her doctor was the first person to notice that Hannah 325 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: wasn't doing as well as she said. 326 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: She said, are you getting any sleep? And I was like, yeah, 327 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: when I take you know, trazy doone and clonipin and 328 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: a couple glasses of wine. And she said, that's not sleeping, 329 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: that's passing out. 330 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 2: She recommended that hannah' see a therapist, and Hannah knew 331 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: she was right. So for the next year, Hannah threw 332 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 2: herself into therapy and had some major breakthroughs. She'd been 333 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: so isolated as a child that she never learned how 334 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 2: to build healthy relationships. 335 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, what do I do if I 336 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: don't like this girl that I'm friends with? My therapist 337 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: was like, so you don't like the girl, don't see her? 338 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, what do I do if I'm 339 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: dating a guy and I just want to break up 340 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: with him and I don't have a reason. She's like, 341 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: you break up with him? And I was like, oh, 342 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: I think because of my parents divorce and because of 343 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: the trauma of that custody battle, I'd missed out on 344 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: just some certain everyday basics. 345 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 2: It had been three years since the divorce and she 346 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: was still with that professor at her university. This relationship 347 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: also helped her heal. He had a young daughter and 348 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: together they formed a little family. 349 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: And in twenty nineteen and November we bought a house together, 350 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: having never lived together before, so we did it all 351 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: at once. His daughter moves in, he moves in, I 352 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: move in, and then like three months later, COVID hit. 353 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: During COVID, Hannah had more time than ever to focus 354 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 2: on her writing and to reflect on her divorce. But 355 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: she wasn't writing her usual fiction. 356 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 3: New ideas just. 357 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 2: Weren't coming to her. Instead, she kept revisiting real conversations. 358 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: The conversations between Trish and Patrick and George and me, 359 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: and the conversations with my family and grad school. There 360 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: was something about that isolation and being sequestered in this 361 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: house that brought it all back. It was during that 362 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: time where I thought, Okay, I'm not over it, because 363 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm still thinking about it. Let's just get it out 364 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: of me. 365 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 2: So she started writing it all down, every conversation she 366 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 2: couldn't get out of her head, memories of Trish from 367 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: early days of their friendship, things she'd wish she'd said 368 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: to Patrick, or that Patrick had said to her. Scenes 369 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: from the life they'd built and knocked down together. 370 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: And then it accidentally became something that I thought could 371 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: be shared with the world, and then that turned into 372 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: my memoir. 373 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: She named the book We Are Too Many a memoir 374 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 2: kind of She wanted it to be an honest attempt 375 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: at capturing a marriage gone wrong. If she was going 376 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: to write about her divorce and all the real people involved, 377 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: she wanted to get it right. 378 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: I was such a part of it that fictional words 379 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: did not exist for what I had gone through, and 380 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: I just thought the stakes are so low in fiction. 381 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: But then when I made it us, I cared. 382 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: Even in sections that were entirely made up, like imagined 383 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: conversations between Patrick and Trish. She tried to paint these 384 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 2: people as they really were. 385 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: He can be dismissive, he can be condescending, but when 386 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: he is charming, and when he shines that charm on you, 387 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: it's quite lovely. I wanted to capture that complicated character. 388 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 3: There's no hero in the story. 389 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 2: Every character shares Blaine herself included. 390 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: In early drafts. I almost always got what I wanted 391 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: to say correct, and I almost always gave myself the 392 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: upper hand and the punchline and I realized I had 393 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: to go through and get rid of all the bullshit. 394 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: I think I did a pretty good job being honest 395 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: about how demanding I can be. I was unpleasant, especially 396 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: towards the end when I was mad. 397 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: She also made it clear that she was only writing 398 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 2: from her perspective. These were, as she writes in her introduction, 399 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: imperfectly recollected exchanges. She was only telling her version of 400 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: the truth. 401 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: I was never attempting to pretend that I had a 402 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: recorder with me. The whole time. I was just trying 403 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: to get out of my head these things that I 404 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: kept coming back to. 405 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 2: But three years after beginning her memoir, and just as 406 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: Hannah was about to announce her book to the world, 407 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: she got an email from her agent. 408 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: And the subject was have you seen this? And I 409 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: opened it, and I read it, and I read it again, 410 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: and I wasn't able to really make sense of what 411 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: I was reading, because what I was reading was a 412 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: synopsis of my husband's affair, our divorce, and our life 413 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: together as it imploded. And it was an announcement for 414 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: my ex husband's debut novel. 415 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: Hannah was about to announce her fifth book, a memoir 416 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 2: about her divorce. Throughout their marriage, Hannah's husband Patrick had 417 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: struggled to get published himself. He'd often relied on Hannah professionally, 418 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: and now his first book is about the affair. 419 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: I had a million feelings all at once. I was 420 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: so happy for him. I was also so mad at him. 421 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: This is how you're going to get published. Finally it's 422 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: going to be about us. 423 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: At first glance, Hannah thought her ex husband had written 424 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 2: a memoir to a truthful account of what he'd done 425 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: to blow. 426 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 3: Up their marriage. 427 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: Confused, she sent a screenshot to a friend and she was. 428 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: Like, oh, sweetie, it's a novel. And I said, no, no, no, 429 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: but this all happened. Everything in the description happened, and said, 430 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: he's written a novel about your marriage. 431 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: In her book, Hannah was confronting her role in her 432 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: marriage and its breakdown. She wrote Patrick as a real person, 433 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: someone with flaws and strengths. Her memoir was nonfiction. Still, 434 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 2: at the end of her book, people would know that 435 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 2: this was only her version of events, but he was 436 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 2: writing fiction. He was taking their real story and passing 437 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: it off as made up. Fiction writers often use material 438 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: from their real life as inspiration. Hannah certainly did, but 439 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 2: this felt different. She worried how would he paint what happened? 440 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 2: How would he paint her? She wanted to gather as 441 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: much information as she could ahead of his novel's release. 442 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: So for the first time in six years, I googled him. 443 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: I was looking for news of his novel. I wanted 444 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: to know anything I could. I couldn't find it but 445 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,959 Speaker 1: a link to one short story that he'd written and 446 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: published in twenty nineteen. And I sat at the kitchen 447 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: table across from my boyfriend as I read this short story. 448 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 3: The narrator of. 449 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: The story seemed a lot like Hannah's ex husband, and 450 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 2: the story was about him having an affair with his 451 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: wife's best friend. He gets divorced an Remarri's sound familiar. 452 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: And in the story there's very clearly a me character. 453 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: There were scenes from their real life, down to the 454 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: details of his trip to New York and the phone 455 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 2: call confrontation about their affair. There were also details that 456 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: mirrored Hannah's career, the guy Hannah was dating, and even 457 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: weird details like how she's slept with a can of 458 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 2: pepper spray under her mattress, which the real Hannah did 459 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 2: during her marriage to Patrick. In the story, the narrator 460 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 2: is in the hospital with his new wife. 461 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 3: Their ten month old baby is extremely ill. 462 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: While he's at the hospital, he's thinking about his ex 463 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: wife who's just died. 464 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: The me character gets knife to death by a homeless person. 465 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: The scene is pretty violent. 466 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: She pulls over and she tries to help this homeless 467 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: guy who's on a bridge. She had had a couple 468 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: of glasses of wine, and he kills her knife's her 469 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: to death. And that's sort of how those story ends. 470 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: That he's in the hospital thinking about his dead ex 471 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: wife and about to go be reunited with his new 472 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: wife and their new baby, and how he never got 473 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: the chance to tell the me of the story that 474 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: they had a baby in the first place. 475 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: Hannah was at a loss for words. She was sitting 476 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: at her kitchen table reading about her imagined death. 477 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: It is a pretty surreal experience to read about yourself 478 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: in third person, something that has been written by a 479 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: former lover, in which you're murdered. I was both amused, terrified, outraged, 480 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: and flumixed that this story had been in the world 481 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: for three years without me knowing. 482 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: As she always did in big moments, she called her sister. 483 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: I said, my ex husband murdered me And she said what, 484 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: And I said three years ago, and I've been walking 485 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: around with no idea that I'm even dead. 486 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: Hannah could have allowed this revelation to take her to 487 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: a dark place. It definitely concerned a lot of people 488 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: in her life. 489 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: I have a couple close female friends who were really worried, 490 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: and my family thought it was pretty creepy. 491 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: But if this was what he wrote in a short story, 492 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: what was he going to say in his forthcoming novel? 493 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: It gave her anxiety. 494 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: Knowing that there's a book in the world there is 495 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: going to be a version of me. It is going 496 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: to be a portrayal that I cannot like, And just 497 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: knowing that there was nothing I could do made me 498 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: feel slightly out of control and a little bit crazy. 499 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 2: Who was she in this book of his? Hannah had 500 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: taken great care to try to write him truthfully. How 501 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: would he write her? 502 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: I had a lot of serious conversations with my partner 503 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: now about whether or not I should read it, whether 504 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: or not he should read it. 505 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 2: Patrick's novel came out two years after the announcement and 506 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 2: a year after her memoir was released, she asked a 507 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: few trusted friends to give it a read. 508 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: They said, it's unflattering, it's ungenerous, you're smug, you're insecure, 509 00:30:55,320 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: and some amount of fun is being made of your body. 510 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: That I was being portrayed with such a caricature, I thought, Yeah, 511 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like something I need to read. 512 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: Hannah did read the preview on Amazon, though. 513 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: And it was more than enough. 514 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: In the first few pages, she recognized the character that 515 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 2: was supposed to be her, but it wasn't her at all. 516 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 3: Like she said, it was a caricature. 517 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: She's obsessed with her careers. She's obsessed with sales. She 518 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: writes books while walking her dog and talking to her 519 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: sister and watching TV. She's like hopping around the kitchen 520 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: talking to NPR while in her sweatsuit and making like 521 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: a smoothie or something. She's ridiculous. 522 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: To this day, Patrick consists that his book is entirely fictional. 523 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: He is to the world saying, this is fiction, this 524 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: is a novel. It has nothing to do with my life. 525 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: But he has given very very real, very factual scenarios 526 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: to the book. 527 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 2: And at the same time, there's a clear connection between 528 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 2: their two books. When someone searches for Patrick or his 529 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: books on Amazon, Hannah's book is one of the top results. 530 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: Hannah doesn't know for sure, but she wonders if that 531 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: was an intentional move by his team. 532 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: Because there's a story there, right, and stories sell books. 533 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: Instead of staying angry, Hannah decided to do what she 534 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: does best, right, and so she flipped the script. 535 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: I just thought, wouldn't it be funny if I wrote 536 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: a book about my ex husband writing a book about me. 537 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 2: When Patrick wrote his novel, he reduced Hannah to a 538 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: two dimensional character, a cartoon. It was infuriating and humiliating, 539 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: and she decided to use those emotions to write. 540 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: And I wrote a little scene in which there's this 541 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: woman sitting across the table from her boyfriend and she 542 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: reads this story in which she's been murdered by her ex. 543 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: And I started laughing after I wrote it, and my 544 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: boyfriend says, what are you laughing at? And I read 545 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: it to him and he said, that's funny. And then 546 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: I just kept writing these things. 547 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: Pretty soon the book took on a life of its own. 548 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: The book became something so much bigger and different than 549 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 1: just being like a revenge book. It became a book 550 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: about what it's like to be a middle aged woman 551 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: navigating this world. 552 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 2: The book falls somewhere in between fiction and nonfiction, in 553 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: a genre called auto fiction. Hannah actually got the idea 554 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 2: to pursue auto fiction from her ex husband. 555 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: I did not know what auto fiction was until I 556 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: read my ex husband's debut announcement in which the ex 557 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: wife is working on auto fiction. And at that point 558 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: in my career, I did not know this expression. It 559 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: was driving me crazy, and I started looking into auto fiction, 560 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: and I thought it was wonderful. 561 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 2: Auto Fiction is rooted in real people and real events, 562 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 2: but it gives writers the freedom to play with reality 563 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: for the sake of a compelling story. 564 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: It's so great. I basically just get to imagine myself 565 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: doing all the crazy things that I do in my 566 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: head but never out in the world. 567 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 2: Unlike Patrick, she was explicit with her readers about drawing 568 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 2: on true events. For example, in her new book, a 569 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: woman named Hannah is living with her boyfriend and his daughter, 570 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 2: just as she does in real life. 571 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: And she gets the news that her ex husband is 572 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: publishing a book in which a very unflattering portrayal of 573 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: herself is prominently featured being out of control and having 574 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: been turned into a character without permission. It's something that 575 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,959 Speaker 1: she's suddenly focused on and questioning. We watch her as 576 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: she tries to figure out what's fair and what's not 577 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: fair and what do you do with shared memories. 578 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 2: Hannah thinks a lot about these ethical questions around shared memories. 579 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: If you've got two artists or two writers who share 580 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: these memories, of course they're going to be distorted. Even 581 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: when you have two people who love each other and 582 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: are still together and they're in a room, they're experiencing 583 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: something different. And so I love the complication of what 584 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: you do with the shared custody of memories. 585 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 2: Today, Hannah's doing much better. She's in recovery from her 586 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 2: eating disorder. It's still something she carries with her. 587 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: I think I'm so proud of being on the other 588 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: side of it that I will never let myself get 589 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: back there. 590 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 2: In many ways, she now feels grateful for what she 591 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 2: went through. 592 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: It took so long to be honest with what I 593 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 1: wanted because I was so determined to please other people 594 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: and to attempt to fit into a particular type of package, 595 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: to be palatable, to be forgiving enough to be sweet, 596 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: to not cause problems, getting a divorce, and re examining 597 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: my life and making a conscious decision to figure out 598 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 1: what I do and don't want out of my life, 599 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: articulating my desires. That entire process was magical. 600 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 2: The end all of our episodes with the same question, 601 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 2: why do you want to tell your story? 602 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: We tell stories to make connections. I teach kids who 603 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: are eighteen to twenty six every day how to tell stories, 604 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: and one of the things that I'm always telling them 605 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: is we tell stories to make connections. And my divorce 606 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: was a major disconnection for me, and it was a 607 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: disconnection from the two people I thought I cared most 608 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: about in my life. And the story that I'm telling 609 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: I don't think is unique. In fact, I think maybe 610 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that I want to tell it. 611 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: I don't think it's something to be ashamed of. I 612 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: don't think that being the person who's been cheated on 613 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 1: means you should hide in a corner. And by telling it, 614 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: I have the opportunity to make a connection, and I 615 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: also have an opportunity to inspire somebody else to want 616 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: to tell their own version of the same story. 617 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal. 618 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 5: It's not like he's a catch me if you can 619 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 5: type person. He actually lies to make himself as normal 620 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 5: as possible, just like your average bloke. 621 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, 622 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 2: email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. 623 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 3: That's Betrayal Pod at. 624 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 2: Gmail dot com, and be sure to follow us on 625 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 2: Instagram at Betrayal Pod. We're grateful for your support. One 626 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show 627 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 628 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 3: Five star reviews go. 629 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: A long way. A big thank you to all of 630 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 2: our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a 631 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership. 632 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 3: With iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by. 633 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 2: Nana Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 634 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlyn 635 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 2: Golden and Monique le Board, with additional production by Ben Fetterman. 636 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 2: Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlyn Golden. Our iHeart 637 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kriinchech. Audio editing and 638 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 2: mixing by Matt del Vecchio, additional editing. 639 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 3: Support from Tanner Robbins. 640 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 2: Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by 641 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 2: mybe Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the 642 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts 643 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 2: from