WEBVTT - Fire Drill 093: LIV and Let Die 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:00.800 Mm hmm. 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.800 On some level, Jay Monahan showed the ultimate leadership. He 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.319 jumped on the grenade and they'd come to the end 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:13.200 of the road. They could no longer try and compete 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:15.280 with the Saudis. The only thing to do is to 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.880 forge a compromise, and by doing so he secured the 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.759 long term health of the PG Tour. Potentially he's going 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.920 to bring fabulous new riches to all his players, and 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.960 the tour didn't have to give up anything all the all. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.520 The only cost was Jay Monahan's reputation and maybe his soul. 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:38.240 That God thoughts in my head. Can't get him out, JH. 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:44.120 Not to think what I'm thinking about. I'm counts can't 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.680 get him out, JH. Not to think what I'm thinking about. 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.000 Hello, Welcome back from their Fire Drill podcast. This is 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.880 Alan Shipnik. I am joined by frequent wingman Michael Bamberger. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.400 That song you just heard was by Griffin House, very 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.759 talented musician. He's gonna He's going to factor in an 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.320 upcoming Fire Drill podcast. Shout out to Griffin for supplying 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:17.440 our theme music and dormy workshop and Link Soul for 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.960 all their sponsorship and support and helping us keep the 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.240 lights on here at the fire pit, but this is 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.120 kind of a special fire drill. We're talking about my 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.880 new book Live and let Die. I'll show it on 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.040 the screen for those who are watching on YouTube. I 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.199 don't know why you'd be doing that. It's a little 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.600 terrifying that people actually watch this, Michael, But anyway, thanks 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:40.479 for being I. 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:42.800 Showered in anticipation of that viewer. 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.720 I shaved and you can see my hair still wet. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:50.280 I was coming in hot. But we've been having these 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.440 conversations about our respective books going back a decade now. 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:55.560 I think it began with Men and Green. And there's 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.360 no one I'd rather talk about than about this stuff 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.520 than with you, a man of letters, a lover of 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:07.400 the written word, a discerning reader. So here we are. 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:13.040 I'm turning this over to you. Now we're changing hosts. Okay, well. 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.400 That's a delight and an honor. And you know, just 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.560 before we I A'm going to have a little preamble here, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.360 but I don't want people to be nervous. When this 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.600 is over. Shipnook will have done ninety four percent of 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.640 the talking, but I'm going to set the I'm going 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:31.480 to do a little mood lighting here and let me 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:33.600 say this at the onset so I might. 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:34.480 Beat other people to it. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.600 Alan and I have been close friends and colleagues going 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.360 back to the mid nineties. Our checks have been signed 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.320 by the same quote people and corporations going back to 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.080 the mid nineties, going after Sports Illustrated and Golf Magazine 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:49.080 and Firepit Collective. We have the same editor, Joe fie 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.600 ferrari Adler at Simon and Schuster, a division of Simon 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:57.720 Schuster now called Avid Reader Press. Our interest we've written 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:03.240 a book together. Our interests are very much aligned. But 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.320 we're going to have a very truthful conversation about this 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:12.320 inredibly interesting and well done book. I read the book 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.679 as On was writing it. I've just read the new 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.240 last chapter of it for anybody who cares. You know, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.200 Ben Bradley famously said Ben Bradley was the longtime editor 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.080 to the Washington Post. Maybe others have said I'm sure 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:26.520 others have said it. You know that newspaper work is 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.040 the first draft of history. 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:28.440 You know. 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.079 I think it's a beautiful phrase. But what Alan has 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:37.320 done here is hot on the wake of the actual events, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:43.960 has actually given context and history to an incredible upheaval 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.320 in professional golf. But the real value of it for 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:49.400 me as a reader, and I think for many many 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.000 people who will read and devour this book, is that 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:57.680 it's not really just about golf. It's about the modern condition, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:06.440 about more is more read, it's never enough, global interests 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.640 in a narrow thing, and how you buy status through 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.880 the use of money. So it's an absolutely incredible and 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.000 interesting book. As someone who's been a lifelong reporter, I 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.840 can imagine I would say I know how difficult this 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.880 book was to report and write Alan, So the first 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.480 thing I want to say is congratulations on an extremely 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.160 well done book. Nobody will read this book and say 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.559 it's boring. Alan and I had a colleague and a friend, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.279 Rick Riley, years ago, and Alan wrote a book called Bud, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.039 Sweat and Teas, and riley blurb forer and Riley's blurb 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.880 for it was somebody forgot to tell Alan Schipneck that 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:48.320 golf books are supposed to be boring. That effect, this 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.640 book is so interesting and so captivating because it has 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.800 so much a play, so many different types of personalities. 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.680 So with that long preamble, we're going to get into 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.919 the book. But Al, I want to start where the 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.640 book stops, and that is because I know people will 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:09.159 be interested to know on your extremely informed opinion about 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.400 this question. I think we all have a sense of 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:15.160 what the various tours will look like in twenty twenty four. 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.760 Give us your best guess for what the world golf 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.599 will look like in twenty twenty five. 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:24.640 Well, first of all, thank you for all those kind words, 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.360 and we could make this just this podcast of monologue. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:28.960 That's fine if you want to keep going, Mike, I 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.640 don't mind at all. I enjoyed that deeply. But yeah, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.800 I think it's obvious that twenty twenty four is going 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.640 to look very much like twenty three and twenty two 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.280 for that matter, Live a play a schedule, the European 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:43.360 Tour will hab it schedule and sold, the PGA Tour 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.120 with some tweaks along the way for each of them. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:51.640 But twenty five is the big question. As I've continued 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.320 to report this book even after it was mostly done. 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.640 You know, I was at the US Women's Amateur at 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.760 bal air walking with some golf power brokers and they 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.360 were talking. Some of them were seminole members, some of 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.640 them are buddies with Jimmy Dunn. You know, they were 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.839 close to the nexus of power, and they were talking 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.320 about all of the private equity money from American corporations 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.719 that are now circling this deal. And I think it's it, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.239 and it sounds like it's it's close to Doune where 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.800 the Saudis role will be somewhat diluted and they will 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.440 bring in institutional investor money for the United States, and 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:30.200 that becomes a much easier sell to Congress, even to 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.640 the tour members and say, listen, the Saudis are an investor, 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.760 but so is you know, Rain Capital, so is Black Rock, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:39.279 so are some of these other big firms that have 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.920 been trying to get into golf, maybe Endeavor, you know, 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:43.400 all those all those firms have been trying to get 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.640 in professional golf going back years now, and so I 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.719 think that becomes more palatable from the standpoint of it's 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.240 not controlled by the Saudis. And even though the tour 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:54.920 folks have hung their hat on this for a long 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.520 time that we have a majority seat on the board 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.039 of directors were in charge, no one's really believe that 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.320 because the money is in charge, and you see her 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:07.120 had all the money. And so if you if you 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.920 bring in the one or two or maybe even three, 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.480 you know, American based private equity firms. Then then you 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.920 can say, well, the PGA Tours in charge, and we 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:18.960 have a variety of investors, one of them being the 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.680 public investment fund in the Saudist. I think that still 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.600 works for yas sir. They have the proverbial seat at 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.320 the table. They have a way forward for live from 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.360 a legitimacy standpoint. They've been embraced by the the golf 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:38.160 establishment and the corporate They've gotten the okay from corporate 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.240 America and it's kind of a win win win. So 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:42.480 I think that's what's going to happen. I think there 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:47.800 will be a global schedule that has you know, say 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.120 call it twenty events, that combination of the best European 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.040 Tour events, the best PGA Tour events, and a handful 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.800 of live events and players will flow back and forth, 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.520 and I think that'll make everyone happy. And then they'll 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.680 still European Tour will still have its normal schedule, There'll 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.240 still be a variety of live events that are not 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.480 part of this umbrella organization, and of course there'll still 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.520 be another forty plus PGA Tour events that operate kind 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:16.120 of business as usual. So it's been a challenging period 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:17.840 for golf fans. There's been a lot of acrimony. There's 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.320 been a lot of name calling and uncertainty. But we 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.840 may land on the best case scenario, which is a 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.280 true global schedule where all the best players show up 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.160 and play every tournament, and it will have been it 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.320 will have taken some strife to get there, but I 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:34.960 think that's the direction this is all heading. 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.840 Well, Alan, what does that mean in terms of a 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:40.880 live schedule, because the live model is, you know, better 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.920 than anybody as well as anybody is team play in 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:49.040 addition to individual play. How would that work in the 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.520 context of people coming and going? Would it still be 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.920 the limited field, three round thing with teams that they 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:55.360 have now? 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.920 So let's say there's there's fourteen of live events. Now, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.120 maybe ten of them are just how they've always been, 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.520 and maybe four of them get subsumed into this larger 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.880 schedule and they would probably be tweaked. So now you 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:12.480 have you have a team element where maybe there's the 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.280 six best live teams they you know, they sort of 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:17.880 have earned the right to play in these events. And 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.760 then you have let's say six teams of top tour 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.840 players with some sort of criteria, and then you have 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.839 three teams of European Tour and they play play off 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.960 in this team event with an individual component, and you know, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.199 I think it's it's very doable. It becomes kind of 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.440 a prize you have to qualify for the live teams 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.679 that miss out on these events. Then they're just kind 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.160 of sol but they can make it up to another ways. 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.160 They can give them exemptions into Asian Tour events if 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.240 they guys want to want to fill out their schedules. 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.559 So that's why this framework agreement is so complex, is 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.000 trying to try to make something that works for all 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.360 the different constituencies. And that's why there's been no movement 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:02.199 publicly because there's so much to sort out. But all 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.839 these things are solvable with money. And now there's the 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:08.360 new CO as they call it, has access to a 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.120 lot of money, not just from the Soudias, but also 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.240 from this notion of bringing in other investors. So I 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:14.840 think they can. I think they can figure this out. 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:16.560 There's a lot of smart people who are working on it, 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.400 and there's a lot of political will to get it done. 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:22.720 But it's probably gonna go down to the wire. I mean, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.200 they have till December thirty first, and they might they 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.280 might be they might be negotiating this over Christmas holiday, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.280 but I think it'll get done. 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.960 So a golfer who's you know, still, you would think 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.959 in theory and his prime, like an Patrick Reid who's 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.240 been banned from the PHA Tour, would he now come 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.040 twenty twenty five, would he be able to come and go? Well, 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:47.680 Patrick Reid's the least example. You know, Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka. 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.040 Yeah, so they would. They would have access to this 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.800 this series of say twenty elite events, of which ten 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.600 of them are tour traditional PGA Tour event, So they 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:58.520 could play the LA Open, they could play Bay Hill, 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:02.320 they could play Memorial. You have to have it both ways. 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.319 If you're going to try and bring the game back together, 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.000 then you got to bring these live guys back into 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.360 the fold. It's only thing that makes sense. And it's 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:14.400 certainly if you are a Master Card or a American 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.280 Express or whomever, a car company and you're you're being 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.040 asked to put in twenty million dollars for a PG 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:25.360 Tour event. You want Dustin, you want you want Bryson, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.320 who's playing incredible golf. I mean, he just won his 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:32.520 second live event in three starts, and well, it's hard 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.280 for all of us to know the meaning of a 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.520 live victory. But the guys shooting incredible scores, including a 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.679 fifty eight, so you know, obviously Brooks Koepka's return to 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.160 the front ranks of the game. You have the anti 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.439 heroes like the Phils, the Patrick Reids, the Sergio Garcias, 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.559 who people may not love, but they inspire emotion and passion. 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.120 And I mean there's a reason that the Master's ratings 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:55.800 were the highest they've been in five years this year. 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:57.560 It was the live guys. I mean, it was Phil 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.280 tearing up the leader board. You know, John Rahm winning 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.600 by four strokes was boring, but the energy that that 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.640 that Phil put into it, the Brooks put into it, 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.640 you know, even and even read you finished fourth. Like 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.280 these guys inspire emotion and so you have to have 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.960 them back in the big tournaments to really make it 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:18.319 all all makes sense. 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.440 And let's get you the book for a minute. Let's 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.400 get to the title. I remember very well when the 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.400 James Bond movie came out with Living Lit Dies it's 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.520 theme song. Did you ever find yourself playing at a 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:37.360 loud volume with those terrifying deep bass notes. Just a great, 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.920 great rocker. That shows you that Pumpcarty's genius extended way 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.400 beyond the Beatles, even though it definitely, definitely definitely peaked 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:46.240 in the Beatles. Did you ever find yourself listening to 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:46.600 that song? 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.760 No, I think we're straying into you, into your life 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:51.800 more than mine and Michael, but yeah, I definitely have 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:56.880 cued it up, and yeah, it's it's just a fun title. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.079 It's a Beatles song. It's a Bond movie, not to 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:03.160 like McCarney song. It's a Bond movie. It's and it 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:07.080 just kind of worked because of the the There is 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.920 this sense that the tours were fighting for their survival, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:14.000 the games survival was at stake. You know, there's it 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.560 wasn't quite zero some but there was times throughout this 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.439 controversy it felt like it. And you know, the reputation 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.720 of Jay Monahan, the there was there's just been a 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.720 lot at stake. I mean that that's this story has 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:32.520 consumed so many people, and the cast of characters is phenomenal. 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:34.840 And of course you have Rory, and you have Tiger, 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:36.640 and you have Phil and you have Brooks, and you 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.960 have Bryson, you have DJ and Patrick Reid, but you 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.680 also have Mohammed bin Salman. You have you have his 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.960 excellency yes he all Ramaian, you have Jay Monahan, you 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.320 have you know, Keith Pelly, You've got Jimmy Dunn, Donald Trump. 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.560 There's just a lot of box office here. And some 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:58.000 people were elevated, some people were diminished, you know, fortunes 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:02.080 were won and lost. It's it's it was just high 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.880 stakes for what was otherwise just a kind of potentially 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:09.240 a boring golf story, you know, in a little boutique sport. 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.839 So yeah, I mean then the title might be a 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.800 little hyperbolic, but it just seemed to fit the energy 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:15.360 of the story. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.040 Well, where do you think we're actually going? Do you 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.000 think we are Do you think we are heading towards 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.280 the live lit dire? Do you think we're heading towards living, 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.320 let thrive or some other word? 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.200 Yeah, I think that Live is going to endure. I 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.800 think it's too important to Yes Year and the Public 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:35.440 Investment Fund. They put a lot of money and a 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.200 lot of time into it, and they want to return 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.160 on their investment. I mean, there's a quote from a 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:44.200 guy who worked a lot with the Saudi's on launching 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.840 live and he said, you know it's in the book. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.280 He's anonymous because of his NDAs and other reasons, but 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.160 he said, there's the narrative that these guys have an 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.320 endless amount of money and they're happy to throw it away. 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:56.760 He's like, it could be further from the truth. Like 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.360 they are laser focused and there's always a place, and 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.160 they will not stop until they've executed a plan. And 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.360 so they've already spent say three billion dollars on live golf. 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.440 They want to get that money back. You know that 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.680 ya here has a very demanding boss, and that's that's MBS, 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.920 and he has a mandate to grow the piffs into 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.760 a into a trillion dollar fund by twenty twenty five. 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.600 You don't do that by losing money. And that's not 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.080 a guy you want to have mad at you. You know, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.200 if we all want to please our boss, when when 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.360 your boss is a scary motherfucker like MBS, you really 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.600 want to you want to hit your mark. So they're 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.160 they're they're trying to get their money back and they're 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.560 trying to make money, and there's there's other things. You're 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.640 willing to pay for the reputational boost of being aligned 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.200 with Corporate America and the PGA tour and the notion 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:47.720 that you see it could become a member of the 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.840 RNA and Augusta National well fanciful it, you know that 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.720 was It's a window into their soul. I mean, let's 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.479 just say that that worked out. He would have access 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.240 to the American ruling class in a way that no 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:06.400 Saudi king or crown prince or ambassador ever has had. 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.800 And so they're certainly willing to pay a premium for 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:15.280 that kind of access. But their their bottom line, very 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.600 cold blooded businessman, and they want to get the money back. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.560 So shuddering live now ends that possibility. If they can 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.640 keep it going and turn it into something, then then 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.640 then that's a path forward. 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.960 Traditionally, a book has a hero that you can root for. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.160 Your first book, which you know how much I loved it, 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.520 Bud Sweat and Teas has an unlikely hero, acadey named 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.760 Steve Duplantis, who caddies for rich Beham, and you're rooting 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:44.720 for this guy and he's hanging on by a thread. 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:45.800 This book is. 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:52.120 Very, very compulsively readable. But let me I'll turn into 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.320 a question in your mind, is there a hero in 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.640 the telling of this story? 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.080 It's It's what I think makes it so compelling is 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:11.480 that every protagonist UH has complicated motives and and complicated behavior. 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.400 Like j Monahan is fighting for the PGA Tour. He's 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.639 a true believer. He has no other agenda than trying 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.240 to do what's best for the tour and his players 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:27.040 and his organization and you. But he's made he made 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.720 some fatal missteps out of pride or out of out 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.240 out of bad advice, or out of having this old 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.320 hockey j mentality that's his nickname, the tour headquarters. When 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.880 when he went the dark side of his personality because 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.240 he was an old defenseman in college hockey team. So 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.199 you know, he could have been the hero, but he 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.800 kind of he kind of fell on his sword. You know, 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.280 Rory thought he was fighting the good fight, and in 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:53.760 a lot of ways he was. But you know, there's 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.040 there's an interesting bit in here from you know, the 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.400 live guys roll their eyes so hard at Rory as 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.399 this as this white knight of this tail, because he 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.000 has tremendous financial interests through the PGA Tour all the 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:09.320 deals they've steered through to him. This new TGL Golf League, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.240 the tour has supported and has a financial interest in. 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:18.120 So and in the end, you know, he he got 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.080 out fox by the money guys. And he might be 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:26.800 the tragic hero Tiger, you know, he's he's he's been 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.480 this this shadow with influence throughout. Like on one hand, yes, 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.119 it's very selfless for him to get involved and to 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.960 the Delaware twenty three meeting that he led that really 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.440 turned the tide for the PGA Tour and now taking 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.800 this seat on the board of directors, you could kind 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:42.840 of say Tiger's the hero, but he hasn't want to 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.119 be out front. He's only really made one, you know, 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.280 very strong statement at the British Open, but he's it 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.160 doesn't feel like his fight. You know, he's not really 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.399 a modern player anymore. He's not going to play in 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.440 these events for the most part. So and he's trying 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:57.840 to protect his legacy. You know, he has his own 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.520 selfish reasons for wanting the PGA Tour to tour, and 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.919 so there's it's hard to it's hard to find an 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.040 unblemish here. There's a lot of people who were doing 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.000 the right thing. And they were trying their hardest. But 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.080 their motives are a little complex, and that's why I 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.840 think it's so. And like even the Saudis who've been 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.600 cast as the bad guys, in a lot of ways, 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.000 they're true believers. Like they think that they're doing what's 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:26.840 best for their economy, for their country. You know, they 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.520 they are fighting the good fight in their minds. Now 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:33.080 people are going to disagree with that, but on some level, 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.800 their motives are very pure. They just they just want 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.600 to advance their own interests and they care deeply about 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.840 their country, and they're they're doing everything they can to 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:47.760 advance their wishes, of their of their boss and their organizations. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.720 So you can, you can impugne their motives, but I think, 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:53.720 you know, for us here, I think it's pure in 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.359 that he loves golf, and he could there's a lot 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.120 of ways you could invest in his money that would 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.119 be a lot less of a headache, right, you can 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.919 just keep buying stock of Fortune five hundred companies, and 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:06.840 it's probably an easier way to make money. But he 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.359 loves golf's he wants to be an ambassador for the game. 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.439 He wants to spread the gospel of golf, you know, 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.160 So it's it's it's just one of the most fascinating 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.000 parts of this whole tale is that everyone who gets 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:24.880 sucked into it, it's they get engulfed in the controversy 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:30.640 and they become they're just multifaceted and what they're trying 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:32.480 to accomplish and who they really are at their core. 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.159 You get glimpses of it, you never know for sure, 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.560 and and even even when you do get get that insight, 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.520 you can always debate how how pure their motives are 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.360 or not. So there it's not a simplistic story where 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.360 there's a good guy and a bad guy, and that's 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:50.480 I think why it's more interesting. Right. 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:52.920 That's very well said, and I think this would be 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.600 a good time for me to point out, Uh, the 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.880 book is incredibly even handed. 0:20:59.160 --> 0:20:59.439 I know. 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.119 I think I picked up on the on the idea 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.800 that people think that you're quote pro live, and I 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.880 read the book and I don't think there's anyway someone 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:10.760 can say your pro live, your anti live, your pro 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.560 PG two or your antipg twour. I think you're really 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.919 trying to tell us a very complicated story with a 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.119 lot of different emotions, and I think it's very powerful 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.959 to hear you say that that that what the what 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:28.040 these piffbackers, what these Saudi billionaires want. That they believe 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.600