1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:00,800 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 2: On some level, Jay Monahan showed the ultimate leadership. He 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 2: jumped on the grenade and they'd come to the end 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 2: of the road. They could no longer try and compete 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: with the Saudis. The only thing to do is to 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: forge a compromise, and by doing so he secured the 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: long term health of the PG Tour. Potentially he's going 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 2: to bring fabulous new riches to all his players, and 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: the tour didn't have to give up anything all the all. 10 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: The only cost was Jay Monahan's reputation and maybe his soul. 11 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: That God thoughts in my head. Can't get him out, JH. 12 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: Not to think what I'm thinking about. I'm counts can't 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: get him out, JH. Not to think what I'm thinking about. 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome back from their Fire Drill podcast. This is 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: Alan Shipnik. I am joined by frequent wingman Michael Bamberger. 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: That song you just heard was by Griffin House, very 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 2: talented musician. He's gonna He's going to factor in an 18 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 2: upcoming Fire Drill podcast. Shout out to Griffin for supplying 19 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: our theme music and dormy workshop and Link Soul for 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 2: all their sponsorship and support and helping us keep the 21 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: lights on here at the fire pit, but this is 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: kind of a special fire drill. We're talking about my 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: new book Live and let Die. I'll show it on 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: the screen for those who are watching on YouTube. I 25 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 2: don't know why you'd be doing that. It's a little 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: terrifying that people actually watch this, Michael, But anyway, thanks 27 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 2: for being I. 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 3: Showered in anticipation of that viewer. 29 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: I shaved and you can see my hair still wet. 30 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: I was coming in hot. But we've been having these 31 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: conversations about our respective books going back a decade now. 32 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: I think it began with Men and Green. And there's 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: no one I'd rather talk about than about this stuff 34 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: than with you, a man of letters, a lover of 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: the written word, a discerning reader. So here we are. 36 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: I'm turning this over to you. Now we're changing hosts. Okay, well. 37 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: That's a delight and an honor. And you know, just 38 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 3: before we I A'm going to have a little preamble here, 39 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 3: but I don't want people to be nervous. When this 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: is over. Shipnook will have done ninety four percent of 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 3: the talking, but I'm going to set the I'm going 42 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 3: to do a little mood lighting here and let me 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 3: say this at the onset so I might. 44 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: Beat other people to it. 45 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: Alan and I have been close friends and colleagues going 46 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 3: back to the mid nineties. Our checks have been signed 47 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: by the same quote people and corporations going back to 48 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 3: the mid nineties, going after Sports Illustrated and Golf Magazine 49 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 3: and Firepit Collective. We have the same editor, Joe fie 50 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 3: ferrari Adler at Simon and Schuster, a division of Simon 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 3: Schuster now called Avid Reader Press. Our interest we've written 52 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: a book together. Our interests are very much aligned. But 53 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: we're going to have a very truthful conversation about this 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 3: inredibly interesting and well done book. I read the book 55 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 3: as On was writing it. I've just read the new 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: last chapter of it for anybody who cares. You know, 57 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: Ben Bradley famously said Ben Bradley was the longtime editor 58 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 3: to the Washington Post. Maybe others have said I'm sure 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: others have said it. You know that newspaper work is 60 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: the first draft of history. 61 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: You know. 62 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 3: I think it's a beautiful phrase. But what Alan has 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: done here is hot on the wake of the actual events, 64 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: has actually given context and history to an incredible upheaval 65 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: in professional golf. But the real value of it for 66 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: me as a reader, and I think for many many 67 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: people who will read and devour this book, is that 68 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 3: it's not really just about golf. It's about the modern condition, 69 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: about more is more read, it's never enough, global interests 70 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 3: in a narrow thing, and how you buy status through 71 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: the use of money. So it's an absolutely incredible and 72 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: interesting book. As someone who's been a lifelong reporter, I 73 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 3: can imagine I would say I know how difficult this 74 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: book was to report and write Alan, So the first 75 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 3: thing I want to say is congratulations on an extremely 76 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 3: well done book. Nobody will read this book and say 77 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,559 Speaker 3: it's boring. Alan and I had a colleague and a friend, 78 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 3: Rick Riley, years ago, and Alan wrote a book called Bud, 79 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 3: Sweat and Teas, and riley blurb forer and Riley's blurb 80 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 3: for it was somebody forgot to tell Alan Schipneck that 81 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 3: golf books are supposed to be boring. That effect, this 82 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 3: book is so interesting and so captivating because it has 83 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: so much a play, so many different types of personalities. 84 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: So with that long preamble, we're going to get into 85 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 3: the book. But Al, I want to start where the 86 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: book stops, and that is because I know people will 87 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 3: be interested to know on your extremely informed opinion about 88 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: this question. I think we all have a sense of 89 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 3: what the various tours will look like in twenty twenty four. 90 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: Give us your best guess for what the world golf 91 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 3: will look like in twenty twenty five. 92 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you for all those kind words, 93 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: and we could make this just this podcast of monologue. 94 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: That's fine if you want to keep going, Mike, I 95 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: don't mind at all. I enjoyed that deeply. But yeah, 96 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: I think it's obvious that twenty twenty four is going 97 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: to look very much like twenty three and twenty two 98 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: for that matter, Live a play a schedule, the European 99 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: Tour will hab it schedule and sold, the PGA Tour 100 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: with some tweaks along the way for each of them. 101 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: But twenty five is the big question. As I've continued 102 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: to report this book even after it was mostly done. 103 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: You know, I was at the US Women's Amateur at 104 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: bal air walking with some golf power brokers and they 105 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: were talking. Some of them were seminole members, some of 106 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: them are buddies with Jimmy Dunn. You know, they were 107 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: close to the nexus of power, and they were talking 108 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: about all of the private equity money from American corporations 109 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: that are now circling this deal. And I think it's it, 110 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 2: and it sounds like it's it's close to Doune where 111 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: the Saudis role will be somewhat diluted and they will 112 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: bring in institutional investor money for the United States, and 113 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: that becomes a much easier sell to Congress, even to 114 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: the tour members and say, listen, the Saudis are an investor, 115 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: but so is you know, Rain Capital, so is Black Rock, 116 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: so are some of these other big firms that have 117 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 2: been trying to get into golf, maybe Endeavor, you know, 118 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: all those all those firms have been trying to get 119 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: in professional golf going back years now, and so I 120 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: think that becomes more palatable from the standpoint of it's 121 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: not controlled by the Saudis. And even though the tour 122 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: folks have hung their hat on this for a long 123 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: time that we have a majority seat on the board 124 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: of directors were in charge, no one's really believe that 125 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: because the money is in charge, and you see her 126 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: had all the money. And so if you if you 127 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: bring in the one or two or maybe even three, 128 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: you know, American based private equity firms. Then then you 129 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: can say, well, the PGA Tours in charge, and we 130 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: have a variety of investors, one of them being the 131 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: public investment fund in the Saudist. I think that still 132 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: works for yas sir. They have the proverbial seat at 133 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: the table. They have a way forward for live from 134 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: a legitimacy standpoint. They've been embraced by the the golf 135 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: establishment and the corporate They've gotten the okay from corporate 136 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: America and it's kind of a win win win. So 137 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: I think that's what's going to happen. I think there 138 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: will be a global schedule that has you know, say 139 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: call it twenty events, that combination of the best European 140 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: Tour events, the best PGA Tour events, and a handful 141 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: of live events and players will flow back and forth, 142 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: and I think that'll make everyone happy. And then they'll 143 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: still European Tour will still have its normal schedule, There'll 144 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: still be a variety of live events that are not 145 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: part of this umbrella organization, and of course there'll still 146 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: be another forty plus PGA Tour events that operate kind 147 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: of business as usual. So it's been a challenging period 148 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 2: for golf fans. There's been a lot of acrimony. There's 149 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: been a lot of name calling and uncertainty. But we 150 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: may land on the best case scenario, which is a 151 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: true global schedule where all the best players show up 152 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: and play every tournament, and it will have been it 153 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: will have taken some strife to get there, but I 154 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: think that's the direction this is all heading. 155 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 3: Well, Alan, what does that mean in terms of a 156 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 3: live schedule, because the live model is, you know, better 157 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 3: than anybody as well as anybody is team play in 158 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: addition to individual play. How would that work in the 159 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: context of people coming and going? Would it still be 160 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: the limited field, three round thing with teams that they 161 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: have now? 162 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: So let's say there's there's fourteen of live events. Now, 163 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: maybe ten of them are just how they've always been, 164 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: and maybe four of them get subsumed into this larger 165 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: schedule and they would probably be tweaked. So now you 166 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: have you have a team element where maybe there's the 167 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: six best live teams they you know, they sort of 168 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: have earned the right to play in these events. And 169 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: then you have let's say six teams of top tour 170 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: players with some sort of criteria, and then you have 171 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 2: three teams of European Tour and they play play off 172 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: in this team event with an individual component, and you know, 173 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: I think it's it's very doable. It becomes kind of 174 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: a prize you have to qualify for the live teams 175 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: that miss out on these events. Then they're just kind 176 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: of sol but they can make it up to another ways. 177 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: They can give them exemptions into Asian Tour events if 178 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: they guys want to want to fill out their schedules. 179 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: So that's why this framework agreement is so complex, is 180 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: trying to try to make something that works for all 181 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: the different constituencies. And that's why there's been no movement 182 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 2: publicly because there's so much to sort out. But all 183 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 2: these things are solvable with money. And now there's the 184 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: new CO as they call it, has access to a 185 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: lot of money, not just from the Soudias, but also 186 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: from this notion of bringing in other investors. So I 187 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: think they can. I think they can figure this out. 188 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: There's a lot of smart people who are working on it, 189 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of political will to get it done. 190 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: But it's probably gonna go down to the wire. I mean, 191 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 2: they have till December thirty first, and they might they 192 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: might be they might be negotiating this over Christmas holiday, 193 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: but I think it'll get done. 194 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: So a golfer who's you know, still, you would think 195 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 3: in theory and his prime, like an Patrick Reid who's 196 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 3: been banned from the PHA Tour, would he now come 197 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, would he be able to come and go? Well, 198 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 3: Patrick Reid's the least example. You know, Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka. 199 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they would. They would have access to this 200 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: this series of say twenty elite events, of which ten 201 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: of them are tour traditional PGA Tour event, So they 202 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: could play the LA Open, they could play Bay Hill, 203 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 2: they could play Memorial. You have to have it both ways. 204 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 2: If you're going to try and bring the game back together, 205 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: then you got to bring these live guys back into 206 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: the fold. It's only thing that makes sense. And it's 207 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: certainly if you are a Master Card or a American 208 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: Express or whomever, a car company and you're you're being 209 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: asked to put in twenty million dollars for a PG 210 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: Tour event. You want Dustin, you want you want Bryson, 211 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: who's playing incredible golf. I mean, he just won his 212 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: second live event in three starts, and well, it's hard 213 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: for all of us to know the meaning of a 214 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: live victory. But the guys shooting incredible scores, including a 215 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: fifty eight, so you know, obviously Brooks Koepka's return to 216 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: the front ranks of the game. You have the anti 217 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 2: heroes like the Phils, the Patrick Reids, the Sergio Garcias, 218 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: who people may not love, but they inspire emotion and passion. 219 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: And I mean there's a reason that the Master's ratings 220 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: were the highest they've been in five years this year. 221 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 2: It was the live guys. I mean, it was Phil 222 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: tearing up the leader board. You know, John Rahm winning 223 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: by four strokes was boring, but the energy that that 224 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: that Phil put into it, the Brooks put into it, 225 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: you know, even and even read you finished fourth. Like 226 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: these guys inspire emotion and so you have to have 227 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: them back in the big tournaments to really make it 228 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: all all makes sense. 229 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 3: And let's get you the book for a minute. Let's 230 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: get to the title. I remember very well when the 231 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: James Bond movie came out with Living Lit Dies it's 232 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: theme song. Did you ever find yourself playing at a 233 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 3: loud volume with those terrifying deep bass notes. Just a great, 234 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: great rocker. That shows you that Pumpcarty's genius extended way 235 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 3: beyond the Beatles, even though it definitely, definitely definitely peaked 236 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: in the Beatles. Did you ever find yourself listening to 237 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: that song? 238 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: No, I think we're straying into you, into your life 239 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: more than mine and Michael, but yeah, I definitely have 240 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: cued it up, and yeah, it's it's just a fun title. 241 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 2: It's a Beatles song. It's a Bond movie, not to 242 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: like McCarney song. It's a Bond movie. It's and it 243 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: just kind of worked because of the the There is 244 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: this sense that the tours were fighting for their survival, 245 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: the games survival was at stake. You know, there's it 246 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: wasn't quite zero some but there was times throughout this 247 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 2: controversy it felt like it. And you know, the reputation 248 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: of Jay Monahan, the there was there's just been a 249 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 2: lot at stake. I mean that that's this story has 250 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: consumed so many people, and the cast of characters is phenomenal. 251 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: And of course you have Rory, and you have Tiger, 252 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: and you have Phil and you have Brooks, and you 253 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 2: have Bryson, you have DJ and Patrick Reid, but you 254 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: also have Mohammed bin Salman. You have you have his 255 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 2: excellency yes he all Ramaian, you have Jay Monahan, you 256 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 2: have you know, Keith Pelly, You've got Jimmy Dunn, Donald Trump. 257 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: There's just a lot of box office here. And some 258 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: people were elevated, some people were diminished, you know, fortunes 259 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: were won and lost. It's it's it was just high 260 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: stakes for what was otherwise just a kind of potentially 261 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: a boring golf story, you know, in a little boutique sport. 262 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean then the title might be a 263 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: little hyperbolic, but it just seemed to fit the energy 264 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: of the story. 265 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: Well, where do you think we're actually going? Do you 266 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 3: think we are Do you think we are heading towards 267 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 3: the live lit dire? Do you think we're heading towards living, 268 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: let thrive or some other word? 269 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that Live is going to endure. I 270 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: think it's too important to Yes Year and the Public 271 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: Investment Fund. They put a lot of money and a 272 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: lot of time into it, and they want to return 273 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: on their investment. I mean, there's a quote from a 274 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: guy who worked a lot with the Saudi's on launching 275 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: live and he said, you know it's in the book. 276 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: He's anonymous because of his NDAs and other reasons, but 277 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: he said, there's the narrative that these guys have an 278 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: endless amount of money and they're happy to throw it away. 279 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: He's like, it could be further from the truth. Like 280 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: they are laser focused and there's always a place, and 281 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: they will not stop until they've executed a plan. And 282 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: so they've already spent say three billion dollars on live golf. 283 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: They want to get that money back. You know that 284 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: ya here has a very demanding boss, and that's that's MBS, 285 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: and he has a mandate to grow the piffs into 286 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: a into a trillion dollar fund by twenty twenty five. 287 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: You don't do that by losing money. And that's not 288 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: a guy you want to have mad at you. You know, 289 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: if we all want to please our boss, when when 290 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: your boss is a scary motherfucker like MBS, you really 291 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: want to you want to hit your mark. So they're 292 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: they're they're trying to get their money back and they're 293 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: trying to make money, and there's there's other things. You're 294 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: willing to pay for the reputational boost of being aligned 295 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: with Corporate America and the PGA tour and the notion 296 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: that you see it could become a member of the 297 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: RNA and Augusta National well fanciful it, you know that 298 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: was It's a window into their soul. I mean, let's 299 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,479 Speaker 2: just say that that worked out. He would have access 300 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: to the American ruling class in a way that no 301 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: Saudi king or crown prince or ambassador ever has had. 302 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: And so they're certainly willing to pay a premium for 303 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 2: that kind of access. But their their bottom line, very 304 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: cold blooded businessman, and they want to get the money back. 305 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: So shuddering live now ends that possibility. If they can 306 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: keep it going and turn it into something, then then 307 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: then that's a path forward. 308 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 3: Traditionally, a book has a hero that you can root for. 309 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: Your first book, which you know how much I loved it, 310 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 3: Bud Sweat and Teas has an unlikely hero, acadey named 311 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 3: Steve Duplantis, who caddies for rich Beham, and you're rooting 312 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 3: for this guy and he's hanging on by a thread. 313 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: This book is. 314 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: Very, very compulsively readable. But let me I'll turn into 315 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 3: a question in your mind, is there a hero in 316 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 3: the telling of this story? 317 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 2: It's It's what I think makes it so compelling is 318 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: that every protagonist UH has complicated motives and and complicated behavior. 319 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 2: Like j Monahan is fighting for the PGA Tour. He's 320 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: a true believer. He has no other agenda than trying 321 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 2: to do what's best for the tour and his players 322 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: and his organization and you. But he's made he made 323 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: some fatal missteps out of pride or out of out 324 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: out of bad advice, or out of having this old 325 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: hockey j mentality that's his nickname, the tour headquarters. When 326 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 2: when he went the dark side of his personality because 327 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 2: he was an old defenseman in college hockey team. So 328 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 2: you know, he could have been the hero, but he 329 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: kind of he kind of fell on his sword. You know, 330 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: Rory thought he was fighting the good fight, and in 331 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: a lot of ways he was. But you know, there's 332 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: there's an interesting bit in here from you know, the 333 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 2: live guys roll their eyes so hard at Rory as 334 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: this as this white knight of this tail, because he 335 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 2: has tremendous financial interests through the PGA Tour all the 336 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: deals they've steered through to him. This new TGL Golf League, 337 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: the tour has supported and has a financial interest in. 338 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: So and in the end, you know, he he got 339 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: out fox by the money guys. And he might be 340 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: the tragic hero Tiger, you know, he's he's he's been 341 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: this this shadow with influence throughout. Like on one hand, yes, 342 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 2: it's very selfless for him to get involved and to 343 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: the Delaware twenty three meeting that he led that really 344 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: turned the tide for the PGA Tour and now taking 345 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: this seat on the board of directors, you could kind 346 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: of say Tiger's the hero, but he hasn't want to 347 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: be out front. He's only really made one, you know, 348 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: very strong statement at the British Open, but he's it 349 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 2: doesn't feel like his fight. You know, he's not really 350 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: a modern player anymore. He's not going to play in 351 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 2: these events for the most part. So and he's trying 352 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: to protect his legacy. You know, he has his own 353 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: selfish reasons for wanting the PGA Tour to tour, and 354 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 2: so there's it's hard to it's hard to find an 355 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: unblemish here. There's a lot of people who were doing 356 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: the right thing. And they were trying their hardest. But 357 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: their motives are a little complex, and that's why I 358 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: think it's so. And like even the Saudis who've been 359 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: cast as the bad guys, in a lot of ways, 360 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: they're true believers. Like they think that they're doing what's 361 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: best for their economy, for their country. You know, they 362 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: they are fighting the good fight in their minds. Now 363 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: people are going to disagree with that, but on some level, 364 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: their motives are very pure. They just they just want 365 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: to advance their own interests and they care deeply about 366 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: their country, and they're they're doing everything they can to 367 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: advance their wishes, of their of their boss and their organizations. 368 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: So you can, you can impugne their motives, but I think, 369 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: you know, for us here, I think it's pure in 370 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 2: that he loves golf, and he could there's a lot 371 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 2: of ways you could invest in his money that would 372 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: be a lot less of a headache, right, you can 373 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 2: just keep buying stock of Fortune five hundred companies, and 374 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: it's probably an easier way to make money. But he 375 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: loves golf's he wants to be an ambassador for the game. 376 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 2: He wants to spread the gospel of golf, you know, 377 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 2: So it's it's it's just one of the most fascinating 378 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: parts of this whole tale is that everyone who gets 379 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 2: sucked into it, it's they get engulfed in the controversy 380 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 2: and they become they're just multifaceted and what they're trying 381 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: to accomplish and who they really are at their core. 382 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 2: You get glimpses of it, you never know for sure, 383 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 2: and and even even when you do get get that insight, 384 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: you can always debate how how pure their motives are 385 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 2: or not. So there it's not a simplistic story where 386 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: there's a good guy and a bad guy, and that's 387 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: I think why it's more interesting. Right. 388 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 3: That's very well said, and I think this would be 389 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 3: a good time for me to point out, Uh, the 390 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 3: book is incredibly even handed. 391 00:20:59,160 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 2: I know. 392 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 3: I think I picked up on the on the idea 393 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: that people think that you're quote pro live, and I 394 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 3: read the book and I don't think there's anyway someone 395 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 3: can say your pro live, your anti live, your pro 396 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 3: PG two or your antipg twour. I think you're really 397 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 3: trying to tell us a very complicated story with a 398 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 3: lot of different emotions, and I think it's very powerful 399 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 3: to hear you say that that that what the what 400 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: these piffbackers, what these Saudi billionaires want. That they believe 401 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 3: in golf, They believe in the things that golf can 402 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 3: bring their motivated making by making money, but they have 403 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 3: other motivations as well. And you know, we don't have 404 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 3: a stranglehold on that. We we Americans or or Europeans, 405 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 3: or Asians or any or anybody else. So I think 406 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 3: what you just said it's kind of important to bear 407 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: in mind. But many people's starting point is this looks 408 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: like a play rooted in greed. You just wrote a 409 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 3: book about Phil Mickelson. It's amazing that that book only 410 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 3: came out what about a year and not a year 411 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 3: and a few months ago now, and here we already 412 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 3: are talking about your next ninety thousand word one hundred 413 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: thousand word book. That's a you know, for those who 414 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 3: don't know how much work it is to get a 415 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: book out incorrect and edited and well written, it's staggering. 416 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 3: But let's talk about a little bit about your experience 417 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 3: writing Phil, how people responded to your take on Phil, 418 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 3: and how you use that in this book. 419 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of casual 420 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: fans and even some reporters and people in the game. 421 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: The film book touched off the livier in some ways 422 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: because everything was happening in the shadows and Phil is 423 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 2: at the center of all of it. He wasn't the 424 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: only one, you know, Dustin and Bryson and others and Kopka, 425 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: they've been talking to Soudiast for over a year. But 426 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: when the excerpt dropped from the Phil book in which 427 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: Phil just gave a very lunt lay of the land 428 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 2: of what was really happening, that's when people really woke 429 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: up to this. Because live had not been announced yet, 430 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 2: it was not a sure thing, and it had nothing 431 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: that had been public and so that was kind of 432 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 2: the beginning of the story, I think for a lot 433 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: of people, and honestly for me too, Like it wasn't 434 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 2: until I had that phone call Phil that I realized 435 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 2: how how serious this was. That because the Premier Golf 436 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 2: League and I traced its entire history early in this 437 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 2: new book, and it's fascinating that that's what created all 438 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 2: this was this idea from this one London lawyer on 439 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: how golf professional golf could be a little better and 440 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: a little more interesting. That's what led us to this moment. 441 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: But the Premier Golf League had been knocking around for 442 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: four years and then they'd never been able to get traction, 443 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: and so I think a lot of people thought they 444 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 2: were confused because the Saudi's at one point were just 445 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 2: investors in the Premiere Golf League, and so then Live 446 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: Golf was being whispered about. But a lot of people 447 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 2: in the game still thought that was just the Premier 448 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 2: Golf leagu. They didn't realize the Saudis had broken away 449 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: and were creating their own standalone thing. I mean, I 450 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: traced all this and Live and Let Die. 451 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 3: But. 452 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: So it was easy to dismiss, Oh, well, this soud 453 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: He's have been involved for years. There's been no traction, 454 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: there's been no announcements. It's all just going to go away. 455 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: You know. The Phil book kind of touched off the 456 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: Live era on some level, as this lives are going 457 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: to change and the story of professional golf is going 458 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: to change. But as I was reporting the Live and 459 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: Let Die like, I learned a lot more about Phil's 460 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: role in all of this, and it's unbelievable. He was 461 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: the biggest booster for the Premiere Golf League. And there's 462 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: a hilarious quote from Keith Pelly, the CEO of the 463 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: European Tour, where Pelly's trying to decide should he do 464 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 2: the strategic alliance with the PGA Tour or should he 465 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: join with the Premiere Golf League and create this new 466 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: super tour. And Phil calls him up out of the 467 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: blue and is advocating for the PGL and he's like, Keith, 468 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: you're a visionary. This is your chance. You can do it. 469 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,239 Speaker 2: You know, you can change golf forever. I mean, it's 470 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: really self referential. Phil's describing himself, and you know, Pelly 471 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: says it was his full pitch. Multimately, the European Tour 472 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: went with a strategic alliance with the PGA Tour. That's 473 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: what forced the Saudis to go at it a loan, 474 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 2: so then fill through and with the Saudis. But at 475 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: the same time, he took all the sort of intellectual 476 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: property from what they were cooking up and he went 477 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 2: to some of these New York private equity firms and 478 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 2: tried to create his own breakaway tour. So Phil was 479 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: in league with the Premier Golf League, with the Saudis, 480 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: and then with his own third rail breakaway tour while 481 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: he was negotiating with the PGA tour and how to 482 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 2: make things better if he stayed. So he was basically 483 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 2: working four sides of the street simultaneously. And it's just 484 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: classic Phil. And on some level he succeeded. I mean, 485 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 2: without him as the chief recruiter and booster, you know, 486 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 2: Live Golf Pride never launches. But of course he's himself 487 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: on fire in the process. And now if this framework 488 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 2: agreement is consummated and he's brought back into the fold, 489 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: you know, he can return as the conquering hero who 490 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: doubled the side salary every professional golfer and made the 491 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 2: game global and it came at a reputational cost. But 492 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 2: he'll claim vindication whether that again, it's complex, Is that valid? 493 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,959 Speaker 2: Is Phil gonna? Does he deserve the accolades? I mean, 494 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: that's not something we could debate, but there's no doubt 495 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: he was a monumental agent of change and he was 496 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: he was the center of the maze for all of this. 497 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 2: And so his role is fleshed out a bit more 498 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: and Live and Let Die it's you know, it comes 499 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: in at the end of the Phil biography but I 500 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 2: don't want to go too deep on philm this next 501 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 2: book because I don't want to feel like a sequel. 502 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: But he's just incredibly important to all of this, And 503 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: I mean there's so many funny things, like the Premier 504 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 2: Golf League, they their first their first offers go out 505 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 2: and Tiger's offered two hundred million dollars and Phil's offered 506 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: fifty And one of the Premier Golf League guys tells me, 507 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 2: absolutely no one in golf had any problem with how 508 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 2: much tiger Wood is being offered except Phil. And so 509 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: then the second round of offers, Phil gets a fifty 510 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,479 Speaker 2: million dollar consulting fee and they knocked down what Tiger's offered, 511 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: Like it's just he's just he's always got his thumb 512 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: on the scales, he's always got his finger in the soup, 513 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 2: whatever metaphor you want, Like he's just always in the 514 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: middle of everything. And so I didn't go too heavy 515 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 2: on Phil, but his cameos are laugh out loud in 516 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 2: this book because he's just such a muckraker and a 517 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 2: rascal and a shitster and he can't help himself. 518 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 3: Tell the folks who might not know who Deep Throat 519 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: was in real life, and tell us if you had 520 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 3: any deep throats of your own, because I know how 521 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: difficult a book like this is to report. 522 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, of course, deep Throat was a nineteen eighties porn, 523 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 2: but that was inspired by a character in All the 524 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: President's Men who was the source for Woodward and Bernstein 525 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: on breaking the whole Watergate story. And his identity was 526 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 2: not known until he died just somewhat recently, but he 527 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: was He was the guy who knew everything but wanted 528 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: to stay in the shadows, and so he was not 529 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: identified by naming their stories, and they just called him 530 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: deep Throat. And so, yeah, I had a variety of 531 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: people like that in this book, because one of the 532 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: fun and challenging parts of this is everyone wanted to 533 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: spin me right. The legacies were at stake here, and 534 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: as you mentioned in your preamble, this was going to 535 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 2: be the first draft of history. And there's been a 536 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 2: lot of a lot of people in writing. I've done 537 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: a lot of good journalism about live golf, but this 538 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: was going to collect the whole story in one place. 539 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: And books have a way of enduring in a way 540 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: that maybe a web column does not, And so people 541 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 2: wanted to talk to me. They wanted they wanted to 542 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 2: try and impress upon me their point of view, but 543 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: a lot of them wouldn't do it publicly. So I 544 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: tried to keep anonymous sources to a minimum, but they 545 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: were they were inevitable in certain ways. And the funny 546 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 2: thing was the c and dagger element, where because the 547 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: Department of Justice was snooping around, they had access to 548 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: the phones of a lot of golf's power brokers. So 549 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 2: a very senior person in the golf world comes up 550 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 2: to me at a tournament says, stop calling, you know, 551 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: stop texting me because the Department of Justice is reading 552 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: my text He's like, just call me and we can talk, 553 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: but don't text me. Another guy's like, stop emailing me 554 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: because the Securities and Exchange Commission is reading my emails. 555 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: And so I have like burner phone numbers for a 556 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 2: lot of powerful people in the game. I have a 557 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,959 Speaker 2: couple of wife cell numbers, I have some landlines, I 558 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 2: have some some faux emails that you know, they have 559 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: their official work email, but then they have their own 560 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 2: private one. And so yeah, there was documents that people 561 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,719 Speaker 2: wanted me to know about, but they couldn't actually give 562 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 2: them to me, so they just read them to me 563 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: over the phone. So there, you know, there wouldn't be 564 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: a paper trail, but I would I would know what 565 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: was contained in them. So it was an extremely fun 566 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: reporting aallenge to get the goods. And I mean, you 567 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: know this, Michael, like that's that's one of the best 568 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: parts of the job is when you're chasing something and 569 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: you have a fragment of it and someone's told you 570 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: part of it, and someone else has told you a 571 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: piece of it, but then you get to the person 572 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: who was in the room and they'll actually give it up. 573 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: And there was a lot of aha moments like that 574 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 2: where I'd been chasing things for a long time and 575 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: I finally wore somebody down or they had to change 576 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,239 Speaker 2: of heart. And there was a lot of people who 577 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: wouldn't talk to me for a long time, and I 578 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 2: kept going back to them and saying, well, so and 579 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: so told me you were there, and someone else told 580 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 2: me that you said this, and finally like, okay, fine, 581 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: you know too much. I got to talk to you now, 582 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: and then they would. But initially they blew me off 583 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 2: because they didn't want to get sucked into it. But 584 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: once I really had the goods, then they felt compelled 585 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: to weigh in with their version of it. So and 586 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: that's I mean, there is a quote in this book. 587 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: It's something I've always thought about. It's this Hollywood producer 588 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: or you know, Robert Evans. There's three sides to every story, 589 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: yours mind and the truth. And I was always hyper 590 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: aware of that in reporting this, that even these people 591 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 2: who were primary sources, who were part of the negotiations, 592 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 2: or who were witnesses to the key events, they had 593 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: their own motivations that I had to weigh out. And 594 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: so it was constantly fact checking and constantly getting second 595 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 2: and third sources to confirm. And sometimes I mean, like 596 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: this is just a small thing, but you know, Jack 597 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 2: Nicholas got sucked into this whole story. You know, basically 598 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: Jack was suing himself. It was the Nicholas companies suing 599 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: the man himself, and it was about Saudi money. And 600 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: so I talked to some people associated with Live who 601 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: were at this meeting and with Jack, and they told 602 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 2: one version of the story. And then I talked to 603 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: Jack's people and their version was completely different. I wasn't 604 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: in the room. I don't know what was said, I 605 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: have to take the word of these people who were 606 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: in the room, and there was no way to really 607 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: so then I just quote both of them, and I 608 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: kind of leave it up to the reader to assess 609 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: the person's motives and just kind of lay it out. 610 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: So there were a few times like that where it 611 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: was not possible to determine what really happened, and I 612 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 2: have these competing views and I just present that, And 613 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 2: to me, it's almost kind of funny. 614 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: You have, like. 615 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 2: How much spin is involved because there was only one 616 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: conversation in one room, and for people who are telling 617 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: such different stories, then you know they're not really honest brokers. 618 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: And I'm most of the time I was the judge 619 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: and the jury on that. But in some instance I 620 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: just leave it up to the reader to try and 621 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 2: make up their own minds, right right. 622 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 3: One of the one of the quote characters, one of 623 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 3: the people in the book that goes through the most 624 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 3: character development over the course of the book would be 625 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 3: Jay Monahan, who comes up as Fincham's deputy. Is a true, 626 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: true believer. And you know, anybody who follows golf, you know, 627 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 3: knows what he said to the pub Uh, you know, 628 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 3: a TV cameras rolling. You know, ask yourself, you know 629 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 3: you ever have to be embarrassed to be a member 630 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: of the PGA Tour and then does this incredible about 631 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 3: face at immense personal told him then he takes a 632 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 3: leave from his job to deal with Really we have 633 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 3: to guess the mental strain of it all and the 634 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 3: physical ramifications of that. What's your sense of what it's 635 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: like to what it has been like to be Jay 636 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 3: Monaghan for these past couple of years. 637 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: It's interesting because he's being pilloried by his own players, 638 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: by senators and congressmen, certainly by the live guys. On 639 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: on some level, Jay Monahan showed the ultimate leadership. He 640 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: jumped on the grenade and he when he realized, okay, 641 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: we can't come. They'd come to the end of the road. 642 00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: They could no longer try and compete with the South. 643 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 2: The only thing to do was to forge a compromise, 644 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: and by doing so he secured the long term health 645 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: of the pg Tour. Potentially he's going to bring fabulous 646 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: new riches to all his players, and the tour didn't 647 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: have to give up anything all the all. The only 648 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: cost was Jay Monhan's reputation and maybe his soul, and 649 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 2: he did it willingly, and you could hail him for 650 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 2: the most selfless leadership imaginable. But the problem was along 651 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: the way he's he you know, it's been documented, as 652 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: you said, that he basically villainized the Saudis and he 653 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: made their money dirty, and he he chose to go 654 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: down that road. I mean, that was a tactic he chose. 655 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 2: And so now when you partner with them and you 656 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: take their money, what does that say about you? And 657 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 2: so here those were some of the missteps that he made. 658 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 2: You know, he he he didn't have to make it 659 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: a moral argument. He didn't have to draw the nine 660 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 2: to eleven families into the conversation, but he chose to. 661 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: And that's where the hypocrisy rings out. But from a 662 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 2: strictly a business sense, you know, you could you could argue, 663 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,760 Speaker 2: you go cut the greatest deal in golf history. He's 664 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: he's got he's still technically the day to day CEO 665 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 2: of this new co and now he has this unlimited, 666 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: unlimited amount of capital to do all kinds of cool stuff. 667 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 2: So but yeah, it that's that's the trag That's what 668 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: part makes Monahan role in this tragic and one of 669 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: some of this some of the fresh information in this 670 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: book goes back to the early days of the Saudi threat, 671 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 2: like you know, how long Monahan knew about this was coming, 672 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 2: and you know the number two guy for the Saudis was, 673 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: you know, Migeede al Sor. He writes this letter to Monahan, 674 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 2: which I reproduced in the book, which no one's seen publicly, 675 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 2: and this is this is in April of two thousand 676 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 2: and twenty one, so this is a full more than 677 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 2: a full year before Lived launches, and he says, we 678 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: want to partner with you, and we want to sit 679 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: down and talk and kind of way to come together 680 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 2: and support the tour and and have this fresh new 681 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: product and have all this investment. And Monahan's response, I mean, 682 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 2: it's all in the book is you know in this 683 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 2: in this board meeting, Charlie Hoffin says, why aren't we 684 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 2: meeting with these Saudi guys? And Monahan says, we're at war. 685 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 2: You know, we're at war. We're at war. We're at war. 686 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 2: And that that was You can argue that the Saudis 687 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: it was a little coy on their part because they 688 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: kind of said, we're going to launch with it without you. 689 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 2: So it was there was a certain threat that was 690 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: baked into this letter, but they did come advocating for 691 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,280 Speaker 2: compromise and for partnership, and Monahan, with this very militant approach, 692 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 2: kind of poisoned the waters for all the professional golf 693 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: and he set the tone that would follow that we 694 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 2: are at war. And so he came around in the end, 695 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 2: but there was a whole series of missteps that that 696 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 2: got him to this place where it was easy to 697 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 2: tar him as a hypocrite, as a liar, and and 698 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: it became easy to diminish the fact that maybe he 699 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: did the best possible for the tour, but it came 700 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: a little too late, and it came after a lot 701 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 2: of a lot of name calling. 702 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 3: Right the PGA Tour Board, its main obligation is to support, 703 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 3: of course, the membership numbers about one hundred and fifty 704 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 3: active players. Do you think there's any chance that the 705 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 3: group the one hundred and fifty or more players will actually 706 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 3: not want this to happen and therefore the board will 707 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 3: be compelled to turn it down. 708 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 2: It's a possibility. But if the framework agreement falls apart, 709 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: then we just resume business as usual, where Live Golf 710 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: is up and running and the PGA Tour is It 711 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 2: will have been a success for the PGA Tour that 712 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: they got the lawsuits dismissed with prejudice so they can't 713 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 2: be refiled. So the tour no longer has you know, 714 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: five to ten million dollars a month in legal fees. 715 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: That's a win foreshore, but Live Golf would go back 716 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 2: to trying to recruit players. And now, what player are 717 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: going to turn down their money after Jay Monahan and 718 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 2: Jimmy Dunn and everyone else said we love these guys. 719 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 2: There are partners and they're good for golf. And if 720 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 2: jay Monhamm was so eager to take the Soudy money, 721 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 2: why would Patrick Can't Lay or anyone else turn it 722 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: down as they did the first time around. And so 723 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: it's tenuous for the tour. I mean, they could lose 724 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: an entire generation of players to Live Golf if they 725 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:33,479 Speaker 2: go back to being competitors. Now, maybe that doesn't matter. 726 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 2: You know, if as a thought exercise, if Can't Lay 727 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: and Xander Softly and Matt Fitzpatrick and Will Zalatours and 728 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 2: Sam Burns, if all those guys went to Live does 729 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 2: that change anything I don't know. I mean, they're they're 730 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: all nice players, but they don't really move the needle. 731 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 2: It would make live golf a more compelling product, but 732 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: is it going to send the masses to the CW. 733 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 2: Maybe not. And as long as the tour has Rory 734 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 2: and rom and Speed and Justin Thomas and the occasional 735 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 2: Tiger Woods cameo perhaps and maybe Charlie Woods, then maybe 736 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 2: the tour is still in a position of strength. But 737 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 2: that's the risk for the tour is that if the 738 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 2: membership votes is down, they lose access to all the 739 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 2: Saudi capital, they go back to being competitors, they lose 740 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 2: a lot of their top players. That's a big risk. Now, 741 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 2: I do think that there's and I know this to 742 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 2: be a fact, there's a strong faction within the tour 743 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 2: and even within the board of the players on the 744 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: board like, okay, we've found religion. A not for profit 745 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 2: PGA tour makes no sense. We were in this outdated model. 746 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 2: Let's take outside investment, let's privatize, but let's just do 747 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 2: it without the Saudis. And so the tour could still 748 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 2: they could still take all this private equity money, and 749 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 2: they could they could just say no to the public 750 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 2: investment fund, and they would still be much better capitalized 751 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 2: than they were, and they'd be able to pay their players. 752 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 2: But they've promised them these elevated purses. But again in 753 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: that scenarira of the tour stronger financially, but they lose, 754 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 2: they run the risk of losing a bunch of their players. 755 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,760 Speaker 2: And so I think the way to split the baby, 756 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 2: that legal term, is that take the outside investment from 757 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 2: private equity American money, but keep the saud He's in 758 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 2: the fold so they don't go back to being competitors. 759 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 2: And I think that's the smartest and the best way 760 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: forward for the tour. But it's complex because there's a 761 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 2: lot of egos, there's a lot of hurt feelings, and 762 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 2: there's a lot of personalities in play. So you know, 763 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 2: Patrick Cantley is definitely working to try and he's got 764 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: this end around, going to try and subvert this deal 765 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 2: and cut the Saudi's out of it. But to see 766 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 2: how the political capital, I mean, we're going to find out. 767 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 2: There's there's now twelve votes on the board of directors, 768 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 2: six players and six outside directors. So the fall lines 769 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 2: there are interesting. Tiger's there, Rory's there. Then you have 770 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 2: like the Peter Malnatti's and the Web Simpsons who are 771 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 2: they're not They're not at the top of the game anymore, 772 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 2: so they're kind of looking out for the journeyman. They 773 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 2: still need to fill the seat of Randall Stevenson, the 774 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 2: AT and T CEO, who resigned in protest. He's one 775 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,439 Speaker 2: of the independent directors. So how the board shakes out 776 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 2: is a very interesting question. 777 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 3: Is it a simple majority vote yes? What would they 778 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,800 Speaker 3: do in the sixty sixth. 779 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 2: Scenario that's the nuclear option. I mean, nobody knows because 780 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 2: they generally when things get vote on, it's almost always unanimous. 781 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 2: They negotiated out to a point. They get the players 782 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 2: on board, and they want the players to vote yes, 783 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: like there's been and even like going back to DO 784 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one when they the Player Impact Program. James 785 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 2: Hahn was very much against it, but he didn't in 786 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,240 Speaker 2: the end, he didn't vote against it, he just abstained. 787 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 2: Because the tour always wants to say it's unanimus, you know, 788 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 2: it becomes like a linguistic thing. So I don't think 789 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 2: there's any precedent for a deadlocked vote. And how they 790 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,919 Speaker 2: finesse that that would be spectacular theater. 791 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 3: So even with something that this major, that absolutely will 792 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 3: affect the institution forever. It doesn't go to a vote, 793 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 3: a vote of the whole membership, it's still decided on 794 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 3: the board level. Is that correct? 795 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 2: That's correct, Whether whether the board could do a straw pole, 796 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 2: you know, raise your hand in a meeting, like there's 797 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 2: there's ways they can build consensus, but it's not a 798 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 2: true democracy. I mean, it's like it's really they have 799 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 2: like the electoral college is what it is. And so 800 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 2: we all know that's a that can be a flawed institution. 801 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 3: The PGA Tour, the PGA of America, the USGA have all 802 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 3: run from Trump. Live Golf has not. How would how 803 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 3: would Trump courses play into the future, uh with in 804 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 3: a some kind of merger between the PGA Tour Live Yeah. 805 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 2: I mean the Trump organization has a multi year contract 806 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,280 Speaker 2: with Live Golf, and that's they played twice at Trump 807 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 2: events and the Beta Test season last year. They've got 808 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 2: three Trump events this year. You know, Trump, this is 809 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 2: Trump's last foothold in the men's professional game, and he's 810 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 2: not going to let it go easily. And you know, 811 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 2: I Ironically, Jerral was a PG Tour event forever, so 812 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 2: it has has providence like you could you could imagine 813 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 2: possibly going back there. But certainly the PJ Tour has 814 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 2: made its stance known. You know, they took away the 815 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 2: event at Jerral, and but money talks, and I don't 816 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 2: think I don't they're trying to stay out of lawsuits. 817 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 2: It's possible they would, they would give Trump one event 818 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 2: as to help make all this go away. But he's 819 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 2: certainly very polarizing. I mean, Live Golf needed Trump, you know. 820 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,760 Speaker 2: Sergio Garcia told me we have to play where we're wanted, 821 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 2: and not many people wanted us, especially in the first year. 822 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 2: So certainly the tour doesn't need Trump from a venue standpoint. 823 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 2: But better for better and for worse, he is a 824 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,919 Speaker 2: part of Live Golf and he's been a big part. 825 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 2: So that's another thing that has to get finessed and negotiated, 826 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,720 Speaker 2: and that remains unknown. 827 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 3: Well, as you start to wrap up here, let's talk 828 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 3: about what your personal efforts to get this book up 829 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 3: and out. You work so hard on that Phil Michelson book. 830 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 3: The aftermath of that Phil Micholson book, people are coming 831 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 3: at you every which way, imaginable. You have four children, 832 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,800 Speaker 3: you're working for the Firepit Collective, you're one of its partners, 833 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 3: and working hard to get that off the ground, to 834 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 3: make that profitable. Usually there's a long hangover period after 835 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,919 Speaker 3: somebody finishes the book. Sometimes those hangover periods can last 836 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 3: for the rest of the writer's life, as was the 837 00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,240 Speaker 3: case with Harper Lee. 838 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 2: Uh. 839 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,479 Speaker 3: Even on one book we never wrote from her. Well 840 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 3: she everydent only wrote a. 841 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 2: Second Ja D. Salinger. There's there's definitely a precedent. 842 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 3: Yes, how did you get the energy to go back 843 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 3: at it right on the heels. 844 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 2: Of the phil book? Yeah, it was I did. There 845 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,760 Speaker 2: was a little lull. I mean, I've told this story before, 846 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 2: but so in last June, when when the US Open 847 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 2: was at the country Club in Brookline, I took the 848 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 2: train down to New York City to have lunch with Joephi, 849 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 2: Frary Adler, our mutual editor, Michael and then David Black 850 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,919 Speaker 2: has been my career long literary agent, and I hadn't 851 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 2: seen either one of them in a long time because 852 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 2: of COVID and other reasons, and so it was built 853 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 2: as just like a celebratory lunch. At that point. The 854 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 2: Michelson book had been on the New York Times best 855 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 2: seller list for like five weeks and all this and that, 856 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 2: and so we had a great lunch, and somewhat unbeknownst 857 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 2: to me, Jophie and David had negotiated a contract for 858 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 2: this live book. And and by the way, I was 859 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 2: coming in hot from the first live London event where 860 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 2: I got tossed out of the press conference and that 861 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 2: became a whole story. I flew from there straight to Boston, 862 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 2: took straight into New York. So and it was a 863 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:15,280 Speaker 2: great offer. 864 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 3: Didn't you go to the US Open for a day 865 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 3: and then maybe trained down to me? 866 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, yeah, correct, yeah, yeah. I went down on 867 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 2: that Wednesday, and so there was a lot of there 868 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 2: was a lot of energy in the air, and I 869 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 2: could really say no, I mean, it's it was just 870 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 2: already shaping up as like one of the biggest stories 871 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 2: of our lifetime. I was already at the center of 872 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 2: it because of the Michelson book and what had just 873 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 2: happened in London. And I was never not going to 874 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 2: do it, but I really and I started going to 875 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 2: the live events, you know, right away. I was at Portland, 876 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 2: I was at Chicago. Obviously, I was in London, and 877 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 2: I was also double track and I was at the 878 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 2: Tour Championship and some other PGA Tour events. So I 879 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 2: was and I was talking to people, and I was 880 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,839 Speaker 2: doing interviews and I was getting the lay of the land. 881 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 2: But I didn't really start typing the book until around Christmas, 882 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,400 Speaker 2: so there was a decompression period from just being in 883 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 2: the chair. But then it was an insane mad dash 884 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 2: to get it done in seven months and I. 885 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,799 Speaker 3: Pretty much worked changing constantly. 886 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 2: While constantly, and yeah, reporting it in real time and 887 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,480 Speaker 2: writing about it in real time for the fire Pit. 888 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,280 Speaker 2: So yeah, it definitely took a piece of my soul. 889 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 2: Like I'm just starting to recover sort of. But I 890 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 2: pretty much worked on seven days a week and until 891 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,640 Speaker 2: midnight almost every night, and my kids just got used 892 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 2: to going to bed with you know, me sitting in 893 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 2: the chair. And you know, at one point, my son Ben, 894 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 2: you know, he he came, he sat in my lap 895 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 2: and he's like, I'm sorry you have to work so hard, 896 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 2: he said, Honestly, I love it, like it's fun. I'm 897 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,879 Speaker 2: having a great time. I wound up seeing a chiropractor 898 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,720 Speaker 2: and I was going to get massages because the physical 899 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 2: toll was adding up, you know, just of just being 900 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 2: sitting just sitting there typing but chase the story and 901 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 2: cracking the code and getting all the secrets. It's very energizing. 902 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 2: And it went in all kinds of unexpected directions that 903 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 2: I didn't expect in the writing, and so I actually 904 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 2: loved it. It's fun to be that immersed in a project. 905 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 2: And thank god there was a firm deadline actually needed that, 906 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,240 Speaker 2: And there was a point where where Simon Schuster said, okay, 907 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 2: like is it coming out this year or not? Like, 908 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 2: because the way it works with the book releases, they 909 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 2: kind of have to reserve shelf space, They have to 910 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 2: reserve printing presses, they have to buy the paper and 911 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 2: the glue. Like this stuff has to get get figured 912 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 2: out months and months in advance. And so there was 913 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,920 Speaker 2: a point of no return when I had to say 914 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,800 Speaker 2: yes or no. And when I said yes, I actually 915 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 2: felt great relief because then I knew, Okay, I'm going 916 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 2: to get this book done one way or another. If 917 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,719 Speaker 2: we'd let it ride for another six or eight or 918 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,840 Speaker 2: ten months, it would have just kept taking over my life. 919 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 2: So I was actually happy to have that intense deadline 920 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 2: pressure because it was motivating and carried me along. But 921 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,040 Speaker 2: it was it was ambitious. I'll say that now. 922 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,759 Speaker 3: A lot of male readers, especially of sports Way to 923 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 3: books especially, give the chance to read the book or 924 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 3: wait for the TV version, excuse me, the film version. 925 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 3: They're gonna wait for the film version. What's your advice 926 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 3: to these people? What do you think there'll be two 927 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,400 Speaker 3: different you think this story will be told in multiple ways? 928 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,600 Speaker 3: Should they wait or should they I have my own 929 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,720 Speaker 3: answer to I love reading, Yeah, and I'm distrustful author 930 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,360 Speaker 3: on the screen. Yeah, what's your advice to those people? 931 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's been definitely been interest from Hollywood types 932 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 2: about this story, and but who knows like that that's 933 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,239 Speaker 2: that can be a long, complex, frustrating process. You never know. 934 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 2: I mean, Jeff Perlman's a friend and former colleague for 935 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 2: both of us, and you know what they did with 936 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 2: with his Lakers books in Winning Time. I mean, that's 937 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 2: so fun to watch. It's so stylized. It's like the 938 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,680 Speaker 2: energy of that show is phenomenal. Like, but that's that's rare. 939 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 2: You just never know what you can get from a 940 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,439 Speaker 2: cinematic treatment. I mean the book. The great thing about 941 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 2: a book is you just have all the room you 942 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 2: need to stretch your legs. And you know, I became 943 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,879 Speaker 2: fascinated by the agent's role in the building of Live 944 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 2: because they were the ones doing the negotiating. This was 945 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,799 Speaker 2: a once in a lifetime windfall for these agents. And 946 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,440 Speaker 2: so I went down this whole rabbit hole with Mark 947 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,520 Speaker 2: McCormick and Arnold Palmer and how the professions changed and 948 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:37,280 Speaker 2: all the different the infighting between the agencies and Tiger's 949 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,759 Speaker 2: role in as it relates to Mark Steinberg and that 950 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,279 Speaker 2: management company. And you know, I never imagined that I 951 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 2: would go so deep on the agents, but I found 952 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 2: it utterly fascinating. And that's the kind of thing that 953 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,720 Speaker 2: might never if there is some sort of cinematic treatment, 954 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,920 Speaker 2: we'll just never show up on the screen. So I 955 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 2: would say, the book has it's so rich, and it's 956 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 2: so layered, and it's so complex. I would vote for 957 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 2: the book every time. But but you know, that's that's 958 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 2: anyone who writes a book wants people to read the book. 959 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 2: So but I would say, however people consume the story, 960 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,919 Speaker 2: I'm I'm okay with it. I did. I did read 961 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,000 Speaker 2: the audio version. That was a great challenge and that 962 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,400 Speaker 2: was a lot of fun, as I did with the 963 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,320 Speaker 2: phil one as well. 964 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 3: And did you do that at your home studio or 965 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 3: did you have to go someplace for that? 966 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 2: No, you have to it's it has to be professional grade. 967 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 2: And while my little living room here works for these podcasts, 968 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,799 Speaker 2: this is a different level of care. And that was 969 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,360 Speaker 2: six days in the studio and I'm wearing a headset 970 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 2: and there's a producer who's he's just at home actually, 971 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,880 Speaker 2: but he's reading along, and and then there's a studio 972 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 2: engineer and both of them are weighing in constantly about 973 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,759 Speaker 2: if I mispronounced a word, if I should have given 974 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 2: that certain sentence a little more energy, if I'm reading 975 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,319 Speaker 2: too fast, and I need to like it's it's a 976 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 2: whole thing. And but I did enjoy it, And so yeah, 977 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,600 Speaker 2: there's there's any way you come to the story is 978 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,320 Speaker 2: fine with me. But I do think that the book 979 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 2: is stands on its own in a unique way, and 980 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,160 Speaker 2: it would be it would be amazing, It would be 981 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 2: super cool if there's a documentary made, or there's even 982 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 2: a scripted version of this. But I would vote for 983 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 2: starting with the book. But I'm compromised. 984 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,160 Speaker 3: For those who are interested, I know you would be 985 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 3: on if you haven't heard about it. Michael Lewis who 986 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 3: wrote a profile of Tom Wolf that random Vanity Fair 987 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,000 Speaker 3: maybe four or five years ago, and I know I've 988 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,120 Speaker 3: sent the piece to you, Alan to other friends. It's 989 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 3: just an incredible piece of reporting about how a writer works, 990 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 3: and that just got turned into a documentary that I 991 00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 3: would really urge you to see. But you know, but 992 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 3: I Christy and my wife and I just went and 993 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,280 Speaker 3: saw it the other day and I was thinking about 994 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:49,439 Speaker 3: you when when watching it, because Wolf has a lot 995 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 3: of the moves that that you have and that we 996 00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 3: would all aspire to have, but you really do have, 997 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 3: which is get so deep inside the subject that you 998 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,960 Speaker 3: can write about it from the end. So I'm going 999 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,239 Speaker 3: to wrap up with this this last question. But now 1000 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 3: you're going to write about your own life as as 1001 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,399 Speaker 3: as a writer of nonfiction. And let's let's look at 1002 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,399 Speaker 3: it maybe a third. Let's look at a thirty year 1003 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 3: period cart Boy at Pebble Beach gets on at Sports 1004 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,040 Speaker 3: Illustrated at let's call it age twenty. I've been a 1005 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,440 Speaker 3: little little slightly later than that. This summer you and 1006 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,160 Speaker 3: I went out for dinner to celebrate your fiftieth birthday. 1007 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,440 Speaker 3: So this really quite significant arc of a character a 1008 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 3: thirty year period, from an innocent who's hanging on every 1009 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,480 Speaker 3: word that Jim Murray writes in the La Times when 1010 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,319 Speaker 3: you're at Use La to becoming a person that young 1011 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,080 Speaker 3: writers are looking at to see, Wow, this is how 1012 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:45,880 Speaker 3: this is how. 1013 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:46,200 Speaker 2: You do it. 1014 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 3: What's your own sense of your own journey through these 1015 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,239 Speaker 3: thirty years. We'll wrap up on that. 1016 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's a it's a fabulous question. I mean, yeah, 1017 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,440 Speaker 2: turning fifty definitely, that happened in May this year. And 1018 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,960 Speaker 2: actually I finished the manuscript of this book a few 1019 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,320 Speaker 2: weeks later, so there's there's been a little reflective period. 1020 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,920 Speaker 2: And I just I just spoke at a Carmel High 1021 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 2: school in their journalism class, and it is funny to 1022 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 2: be this this oracle of advice when I still feel 1023 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 2: like I'm twenty five at heart, and it's been it's 1024 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,080 Speaker 2: been a wild ride. I mean, if you told twenty 1025 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,319 Speaker 2: year old me this my ninth book, and you know 1026 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,719 Speaker 2: the SI cover stories and all the other things that 1027 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,400 Speaker 2: have come my way, it's I would be very humbled 1028 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:37,040 Speaker 2: and very you know, definitely beyond my wildest dreams, like 1029 00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 2: and Michael Lewis and tomwol for two of my heroes. 1030 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,480 Speaker 2: Like it's funny to mention that, you know, when I 1031 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,479 Speaker 2: would read Sports Illustrated when I was like ten, eleven, twelve, 1032 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,840 Speaker 2: that's when my first came in contact with the magazine. 1033 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,360 Speaker 2: And I was playing every sport back then, but I 1034 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,680 Speaker 2: was it was the writing that that that captivated me. 1035 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 2: And when I started as an intern, I was and 1036 00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 2: funny you mentioned Jim Murray. I was way more starstruck 1037 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,400 Speaker 2: by Jim Murray than I was by Jack Nicholas. You know, 1038 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,640 Speaker 2: my here, even though I love sports, and even though 1039 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,399 Speaker 2: I've I've coached basketball, and I've played sports and all that, 1040 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 2: it's the writers are my gods. You know. They're the 1041 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,680 Speaker 2: ones that I that I aspire to be, and they're 1042 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 2: the ones that inspire me. And I have you know, 1043 00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 2: I have a bookcase in my in my bedroom. It's 1044 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:22,400 Speaker 2: like all my favorite books. It's all the memoirs of 1045 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,720 Speaker 2: all the old sports writers, and it's all the anthologies, 1046 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 2: you know, it's and every now and then I'll just 1047 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:28,560 Speaker 2: just grab one and PLoP up my bed and just 1048 00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 2: even though I've prior already read it twice already, Like, 1049 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,799 Speaker 2: so I'm not remotely suggesting that I'm in the in 1050 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 2: the pantheon of a Jim Murray and a Michael Lewis 1051 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,200 Speaker 2: and uh a Tom Wolf. You know, that's a different universe. 1052 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 2: But it's cool that we you know, you and I 1053 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 2: both have made a life out of this and it's 1054 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,800 Speaker 2: not easy to do. I mean, the industry has changed 1055 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 2: so dramatically in our careers. It's gratifying just to still 1056 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,080 Speaker 2: be at it. You know, you just you never know 1057 00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 2: what's around the bend. We both have had lots of 1058 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:01,920 Speaker 2: colleagues who have gotten out of journalism because they just 1059 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:06,000 Speaker 2: couldn't make it work. So it's like every time you 1060 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,160 Speaker 2: get you put a book out into the world, it's like, man, 1061 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 2: you'll fool them again. It's like, just just keep this 1062 00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:16,359 Speaker 2: whole gig going because it's it's not easy to do. So, yeah, 1063 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,880 Speaker 2: it's been a wild thirty years when you frame it 1064 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 2: like that, And I was twenty when when it all started, 1065 00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:25,760 Speaker 2: when I started my internship, So it's yeah, it's humbling, 1066 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,560 Speaker 2: and you know, there's art and there's commerce. Like we 1067 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,800 Speaker 2: control the writing of the book and then the selling 1068 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,239 Speaker 2: of the book and all that is way beyond the 1069 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,200 Speaker 2: control of anyone individual, so I kind of separate the 1070 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,280 Speaker 2: two and people will buy the book or they won't, 1071 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 2: and I'm at peace with that because I gave it 1072 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,120 Speaker 2: all I had, Like I mean, I really did leave 1073 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,359 Speaker 2: it all on the field, you know, and that's all 1074 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 2: you can do. I think people will pick up on 1075 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,640 Speaker 2: the energy of it and the care that went into it, 1076 00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,040 Speaker 2: and I hope they love it, and I hope they 1077 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,000 Speaker 2: enjoy it. But I love and I enjoyed it, and 1078 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 2: I think I think that's probably enough. 1079 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,000 Speaker 3: That is beautifully said. Thank you Allan, and I'm going 1080 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,160 Speaker 3: to turn it back over to you. 1081 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:11,200 Speaker 2: You should just you should just. 1082 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,360 Speaker 3: Close this and these things you have a nobody that 1083 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,960 Speaker 3: you have always think how to end it. 1084 00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,240 Speaker 2: But it's always a pleasure. I wish you a lot 1085 00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 2: of luck with the book. 1086 00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,960 Speaker 3: And uh, it was a total pleasure to read. Uh 1087 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,160 Speaker 3: it's a weird kind of pleasure because it's not like 1088 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,439 Speaker 3: to me as a you know, very much traditionalist. It's 1089 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,960 Speaker 3: not a happy subject, you know. I see everything through 1090 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:37,040 Speaker 3: the prism of greed, basically in this fight in particular, 1091 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,800 Speaker 3: and often in modern life, but it's deeply, deeply uh 1092 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,120 Speaker 3: instructive and way beyond and it goes way beyond golf, 1093 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,320 Speaker 3: as they tried to say in the beginning. But so, Alan, 1094 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:52,600 Speaker 3: congratulations on this year ninth book, and you say goodbye. 1095 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,480 Speaker 2: To the people. I will well and Mike, I appreciate 1096 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,440 Speaker 2: you doing this. I mean, this is a long standing tradition. 1097 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,920 Speaker 2: I'm sure twenty years from now, when we're both you know, 1098 00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,680 Speaker 2: God knows where in the media universe, we'll still be. 1099 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,720 Speaker 2: We'll still be doing these podcasts for somebody somewhere because 1100 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,360 Speaker 2: it's one of the one of the joys of writing 1101 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,520 Speaker 2: books is talking about them with someone who cares. And 1102 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,920 Speaker 2: so thanks for doing this. This was another fire drilled 1103 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,440 Speaker 2: podcast that was Michael Bamber with so many insightful questions. 1104 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:24,400 Speaker 2: This is Alan Schipnak. Thank you for listening. And that's 1105 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:24,800 Speaker 2: the end. 1106 00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:33,080 Speaker 1: I'm Ben Big and I played the wind, made a fortune. 1107 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,920 Speaker 4: When my ship came in, I ran the table and 1108 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,960 Speaker 4: never thought I could fall down the wind a time 1109 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:44,800 Speaker 4: hit me lack a can in the ball, and now 1110 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:50,080 Speaker 4: I can't shake this losing stream. Every road I take 1111 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:55,840 Speaker 4: is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head, 1112 00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,120 Speaker 4: can't get them. 1113 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,960 Speaker 1: Try and not the thing what I'm thinking about, kind 1114 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,080 Speaker 1: of thoughts in my head. I can't get them out. 1115 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:10,080 Speaker 4: Trying not to think what I'm thinking about,