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Speaker 1: The teacher who vanished into thin air with his fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old students, composed a creepy love song and sang

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Speaker 1: it in Cincide. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: But Tad Cummins wasn't crooning to missing ninth grader Beth Thomas.

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Speaker 1: Get this, He's actually singing to another student he was

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Speaker 1: close to Destiny Parish now nineteen, says Cummins, became her

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Speaker 1: confidant when she was about the same age as Beth.

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Speaker 1: We used to be really, really close. Um. I could

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Speaker 1: talk to him just about anything. Can you imagine you

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Speaker 1: put your child on the school bus or dropped them

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Speaker 1: off at school in the morning. Three pm, they're gone.

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Speaker 1: And that's just half the story. The rest of the

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Speaker 1: story is that their school teacher took them. And you

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Speaker 1: don't hear another word. Your little girl gone missing with

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Speaker 1: a fifty year old school teacher and apparently they're so

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Speaker 1: called flirtation has been going on right under the noses

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Speaker 1: of all the teachers and faculty and administrators at the school.

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Speaker 1: As the days passed by, outrage turns to desperation for

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Speaker 1: the family of Elizabeth Thomas. She has been kidnapped by

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Speaker 1: her teacher Tad Cummins and joining us today a young

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Speaker 1: lady Destiny Parish. But by the grace of God, which

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Speaker 1: she this is the young lady that this same perv

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Speaker 1: teacher sang love songs to Oh Dear Lord in Heaven

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Speaker 1: before I go to Destiny. I want to thank our

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Speaker 1: sponsor today. It is crime Con Crime Busters. Crime Sleu

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Speaker 1: is professional and amateur from all over the country, converging

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Speaker 1: in Indianapolis June nine through June eleven. We're gonna find

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Speaker 1: out the latest in crime fighting techniques and hear from

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Speaker 1: experts like Cheryl McCullum in the Cold Case Institute all

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Speaker 1: the way to f Lee Bailey, who's some credit the O. J.

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Speaker 1: Simpson Acquittal to whether you like that or not. He's

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Speaker 1: gonna be with us live. I'm gonna be there along

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Speaker 1: with Alan, and we'll be podcasting live. If you go

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Speaker 1: to crime con dot com use code Nancy to get off.

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Speaker 1: I hope I see you there. I'm really looking forward

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Speaker 1: to it. Crime Con, thank you for sponsoring our podcast today.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy grey Ace and with

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Speaker 1: no further delay, I want to go straight out to

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Speaker 1: our special guest, Destiny, who was once a student at

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Speaker 1: the same high school where Elizabeth Thomas was a student

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Speaker 1: who was exposed to now kidnapper Tad come as Destiny.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, Thank you for having me, Destiny.

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Speaker 1: I I just I've got so many questions, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna try to take it at the a to Z

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Speaker 1: take it from the beginning. I'm dying to ask you

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Speaker 1: about that ridiculous or as my children say, ridunculous song

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Speaker 1: he sung you when you're like, you know what, fourteen

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Speaker 1: fifteen years old. But I'm gonna start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: When did you first meet the high school teacher? Tad Cummins? Um?

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Speaker 1: We met um at high school obviously. Um. It was

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Speaker 1: probably my sophomore or junior year of high school. Um,

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Speaker 1: and old were you? I was about fourteen or fifteen?

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Speaker 1: And was said, at the same high school? What high

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Speaker 1: school is it? So you met him fourteen or fifteen?

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Speaker 1: Was he your direct teacher or you in his home

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Speaker 1: room or what? You know? He was my direct teacher.

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Speaker 1: I had him for health sciences class. What is health

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Speaker 1: science is? Could somebody tell me that? Uh? He just

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Speaker 1: kind of taught us CPR, like the basics of you know,

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Speaker 1: taking temperatures and all that kind of basic stuff. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so he's your teacher, you're fourteen or fifteen years old.

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Speaker 1: How did you develop a special friendship with him? Um?

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Speaker 1: It really started out, you know, just I would stay

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Speaker 1: after class something like that. Um. You know, I talked

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Speaker 1: to him during lunch, before school, after school, that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing about what Destiny, What did a fifty year

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Speaker 1: old man have to say to a fourteen year old girl.

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Speaker 1: Well back in the day, Um, back when I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, quite a bit younger. Um. I had been

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Speaker 1: going through a lot of different stuff as well, Um,

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Speaker 1: and had actually become really close. Is Tad talking to

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Speaker 1: him about some of this stuff? Um, just a sixth

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Speaker 1: person to talk to that I didn't really have to

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Speaker 1: worry about because I didn't see him. And he says

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Speaker 1: anything other than a you know, a teacher and a friend.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting that you say that, Destiny. Everyone with me

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Speaker 1: is Destiny who was once tag Commins student. They're at

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Speaker 1: Cooka High School. Um, that that's really interesting, Destiny, because

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Speaker 1: that's the same way Elizabeth was. You know, she doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a mother. The mother is charged with abusing mistreating

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Speaker 1: all her children, including Elizabeth, she had been home schooled

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Speaker 1: her whole life. She just enters a school, a public school,

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Speaker 1: and was going through all sorts of stuff. With nine siblings,

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Speaker 1: she's one out of ten, a father that travels all

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Speaker 1: the time. I'm sure she had a lot going on,

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Speaker 1: a lot of you know, upheaval in her life. So

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Speaker 1: she starts talking to tag commins. How does he really

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, did he tell you the whole

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Speaker 1: thing about being a c I A operative that he

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Speaker 1: told Elizabeth? What stories did he tell? Um? Right? At first?

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Speaker 1: You know, he he really didn't have too much odd

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Speaker 1: stuff to say. Um, he had said something up being

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Speaker 1: a doctor and obviously now I know the respiratory therapist. Um,

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Speaker 1: But I he didn't really go too much in depth.

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Speaker 1: Whenever we first discussed his you know, other occupations and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that, I just thought he was a doctor,

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Speaker 1: which was weird because you know, like everybody else has said,

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Speaker 1: why would a doctor work at a high school. You know,

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Speaker 1: you could be making a lot more money being a

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Speaker 1: doctor of sorts thing you know, usually will on teacher salary,

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Speaker 1: for sure. That's interesting. So before he was a c

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Speaker 1: I A operative, to hear him tell it, he had

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Speaker 1: a career as a medical doctor. Okay, Um, and I

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Speaker 1: mean what I mean, a lot of children would think, wow,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's really nice to him to teach it

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Speaker 1: to high school in his spare time. Okay. Other than

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Speaker 1: the thing about that was that he did he you know,

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Speaker 1: he got out of the job that he had because

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Speaker 1: he could because he wanted to be a teacher. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know I can just see that rolling right off

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Speaker 1: his tongue. Okay, So he told you he was the

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Speaker 1: medical doctor and he gave up all the money and

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Speaker 1: the prestige because he liked teaching at the high school. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what other tall tales did he spend? Can you think

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Speaker 1: of any um, other than you know that kind of thing? No,

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Speaker 1: not really. Um, he didn't talk too much himself. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was always you know, kind of a a me

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Speaker 1: talking or him asking about me, how I've been, how

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Speaker 1: things have been, that kind of thing. Did he ever

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Speaker 1: mention his wife? Um? He mentioned her you know here

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Speaker 1: and there, mostly you know, in classes or whatever, But

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Speaker 1: he didn't talk too much about her with me. I

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Speaker 1: don't hardly know anything about her, and I've I went

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Speaker 1: to church with her as well, and I you know,

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Speaker 1: would have lunch and stuff with him. But I really

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Speaker 1: don't know Jill. So when you guys at having all

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Speaker 1: these heart to heart conversations, his relationship with his wife

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Speaker 1: was not part of that. No. I mean, like I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I he invited me to church with them,

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Speaker 1: and you know, obviously she was there, but she didn't.

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Speaker 1: She didn't never really talk. She you know, was kind

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Speaker 1: of a third wheel or a background character. I never

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Speaker 1: heard too much out of her ever when she was around.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand this. It would be you and

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Speaker 1: Tad and her, and it was as if she was

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Speaker 1: the fifth will not you, the wife was the outsider. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was weird, like you know, you think she'd try

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Speaker 1: and talk to me to or you know something, but

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Speaker 1: it was just kind of a mutual silence. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's weird. What would she say? I mean, say, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, you guys would go to church together, where

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Speaker 1: would you sit in the car? Where would she say?

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Speaker 1: What would he? Would he talk to her or address

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Speaker 1: her at all? He would um a lot of times

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Speaker 1: at church. Um, the first time I went, you know,

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Speaker 1: I went dressed with him, and then you know, my

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Speaker 1: family and stuff started going as well. When I sit

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Speaker 1: with Ben. Um, I you know, talked to Tad before

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Speaker 1: or after church or whatever. But I did sit with

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Speaker 1: my family at church, UM. But the only reason I

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Speaker 1: ever went was because Tad had invited me. What did

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Speaker 1: you notice about their relationship? I I didn't notice too much,

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Speaker 1: like I said, you know, I mean, they seem happy

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Speaker 1: like Facebook and all that, but I just never you

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Speaker 1: don't hear much about her. I never heard much about

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Speaker 1: you know, his kids even really, I didn't hear too

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Speaker 1: much about any of Like his life was, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I said, all him trying to figure out how

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Speaker 1: I was and all that kind of stuff. Did he

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Speaker 1: ever visit your home or where you worked? He did

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Speaker 1: not that that definitely was not an issue at the time.

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Speaker 1: How did it come about that he sang a love

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Speaker 1: song to you? Um? I was um a piano player

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Speaker 1: back in the day. I don't play too much anymore,

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Speaker 1: and I've learned a new song and I was to

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Speaker 1: show it to him because you know, like I said,

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Speaker 1: he was a good friend and I was really impressed

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Speaker 1: with myself for learning it. So I took him. We

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Speaker 1: went to the music room, UM, which is you know,

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Speaker 1: right next to his class UM, and it was after school,

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Speaker 1: and um, he had sat down first and he you know,

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Speaker 1: started playing, and you know, I just kind of listened. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I didn follow after he did. You know, we were

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Speaker 1: kind of done after that. But he started singing that,

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Speaker 1: and like I had said, about halfway through the show,

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Speaker 1: I started recording because I thought he was doing good.

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Speaker 1: I didn't notice the lyrics at first, but I really,

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Speaker 1: you know, I can't sing and play the piano, you know,

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a pretty cool thing could be

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Speaker 1: able to do because I was definitely, you know, quite

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Speaker 1: a bit behind and skill set back. Then did he

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Speaker 1: say he made up the song? He wrote the song?

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Speaker 1: He didn't. Um, he never said anything about it. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I tried looking up lyrics and could never find

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Speaker 1: the same song online anywhere, and he similar lyrics anything

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Speaker 1: like that, So I assumed that he did. I could

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Speaker 1: swim for a thousand miles in the oceans inside your

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Speaker 1: eyes and never reached the side. Yeah, okay, you're the

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Speaker 1: kind of woman a man can love for the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life. And I don't know why. I feel

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Speaker 1: it's your eyes. Oh your eyes Is that ringing a

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Speaker 1: veiled destiny? Yeah? Yeah, for sure. So you're in the

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Speaker 1: music room and where are you sitting? And where is

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Speaker 1: he sitting? Uh? He started on the bench, you know,

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Speaker 1: on in front of the piano, and I just stood

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Speaker 1: behind him. I didn't, you know, sit next to him, because,

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Speaker 1: like I said, we were closed. But we did never

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Speaker 1: like no physical contact really, so I wasn't super comfortable

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Speaker 1: when I was really shy. After he sings the song

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Speaker 1: with those lyrics, what did he say, Um, not too much?

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Speaker 1: About halfway through? Um, some of the drama kids from

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Speaker 1: the drama club at school work right across the hall

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Speaker 1: and they had heard the piano and you know, somebody singing,

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Speaker 1: so they came in to check it out. And that

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Speaker 1: was the end of the audio clip, was people coming

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Speaker 1: in and you know, saying how surprised of or how

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Speaker 1: good he was, all that stuff. So he didn't we

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Speaker 1: weren't alone at that point. Yeah, there's nothing like ruining,

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Speaker 1: ruining a romantic moment with a underaged minor, then a

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Speaker 1: bunch of students coming into the class to just burst

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Speaker 1: that bubble. But you were listening to him singing. Do

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Speaker 1: you recall what you were thinking or feeling? Like I said,

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Speaker 1: I didn't think anything of it. I didn't really notice

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Speaker 1: the lyrics too much. Um, I was just kind of

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Speaker 1: very observed in at all. And it was after I

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Speaker 1: you know, got home and listened to it again and

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Speaker 1: played it for you know, a friend of mine that

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Speaker 1: I realized what was actually being said. And even then,

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Speaker 1: like I said, it didn't hit me because he wasn't

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Speaker 1: ever inappropriate. He was always I mean, yeah, there were

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Speaker 1: some things that sent up red flags now, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't ever think that any of this would ever happened

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Speaker 1: for sure when you say things send up red flags now,

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Speaker 1: like what well the song for sure? Um, the day

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Speaker 1: that we were all the students in his classroom during

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Speaker 1: lunch and he told them that, you know, the office

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Speaker 1: told him the students couldn't be in there anymore, so

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Speaker 1: he sent them all back to the cafeteria and let

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Speaker 1: me stay and told you know me that the office

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Speaker 1: hadn't said anything to him, He just didn't want all

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Speaker 1: the students in this class. You know. That's that's definitely

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Speaker 1: kind of a red flag kind of weird that he

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Speaker 1: sent every other student away, like ten or fifteen other

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Speaker 1: kids and not me. Okay, explained to me how that

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Speaker 1: went down. I don't know about that. What happened. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: I was, like I said, really shy back in high school. UM,

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Speaker 1: didn't really have too many people I talked to. So

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Speaker 1: during lunch I would just go into Tad's room and

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Speaker 1: sitting there because I didn't eat any ways. UM. That way,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have to sit alone at lunch or sit

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Speaker 1: there and you know, feel really awkward or anything. So

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Speaker 1: I would sit in his class and a couple of

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Speaker 1: other students with that going there play on their phones

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Speaker 1: because he didn't care, even though we had cell phone

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Speaker 1: rules at school. UM, you know, so they could sit

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Speaker 1: him there on their phones or on the computers, UM,

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. And that's what some of the kids

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Speaker 1: were doing. UM. But then Tad, you know, I made

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Speaker 1: a class announcement. He was like, hey, guys, you know

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Speaker 1: office called. You know, you guys have to go back

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Speaker 1: to lunch. Um. You know that you're not allowed to

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Speaker 1: be in here. You're supposed to be at lunch during

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Speaker 1: this time. UM. So he everybody else left and I

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Speaker 1: grabbed my back and went to leave, and he was

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Speaker 1: he told me, you know, this office hadn't said anything,

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Speaker 1: um that he just didn't want you know, all the

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Speaker 1: kids in his room and that I could stay. So

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Speaker 1: they cleared the room, kept you in there, and then

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Speaker 1: what what if anything? Did he say? Nothing? Really, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember too much else, just us kind of sitting

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Speaker 1: in chip chatting like we always did, just another another day.

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Speaker 1: And none of the other students noticed. No, I guess not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, from what I remember, everybody did

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Speaker 1: quit even after that day going into his room. For

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Speaker 1: the most part, you know, I still did. But when

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Speaker 1: you say, in retrospect, looking back there were red flags,

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Speaker 1: what else do you recall? Um? Those are the two

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Speaker 1: definitely the main things, UM, because you know, like I said,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the other stuff, it didn't really seem

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Speaker 1: as if anything was wrong. I didn't, you know, notice

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Speaker 1: too much, UM, other than maybe the day that I

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Speaker 1: moved away from the school. What happened, UM. I was

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Speaker 1: a junior in high school. UM. I was about it

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Speaker 1: was late December, UM, right before sprint Christmas break. Sorry, UM,

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Speaker 1: I was moving to Wichita, UM over to Kansas. So

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Speaker 1: I had, you know, gotten unenrolled from school and transfers

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Speaker 1: and all of that in order, and it was my

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Speaker 1: last day. So I went in and saw him, UM

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Speaker 1: told him, you know that he already already knew I

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Speaker 1: was leaving, but told him and I was going in

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Speaker 1: telling goodbye and everything. You know, I've already done it

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Speaker 1: with my other friends and stuff. And it was the

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Speaker 1: end of the day. Um. Now went in and we

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Speaker 1: had talked for a minute and he gave me a

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Speaker 1: hug and he told me, no, don't ever let anybody

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Speaker 1: tell you you're not beautiful. And then he told me,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I'm not a student anymore of his,

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Speaker 1: that I could add him on Facebook. Um, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we kept in touch through that through his cell phone.

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Speaker 1: And you know after I movie, like I said, i'd

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Speaker 1: come back, have you know, luch or whatever with his

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Speaker 1: wife for go to the school and see him. And

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Speaker 1: when you would go back, what was his demeanor, Um,

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Speaker 1: It was always the same. He really always seemed excited

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Speaker 1: to see me. Um. I called the school once and

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Speaker 1: they know, transferred me to his room and as soon

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Speaker 1: as he picked up the phone, you know, he you

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Speaker 1: could hear it, you know, destiny perish and he was

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Speaker 1: just really surprised and excited and you know, let me

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Speaker 1: know when I could come to school, that it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be during one of his classes, so you know, we

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Speaker 1: could actually have time to talk, um, which is probably

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Speaker 1: you know, all weird too. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to go during his class. Um,

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Speaker 1: so let me ask you this. Uh, you know that

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Speaker 1: it's just the grace of God that you're not in

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Thomas as Shues right now? Is the way I

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Speaker 1: see it. When you first learned that she had been

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Speaker 1: taken by Tad Commins, what did you think, Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: I got the call from my mom at first, and

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Speaker 1: she would let me know when I was in total denial.

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Speaker 1: I thought, you know, maybe she was messing with me

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Speaker 1: or something, which you know, why would she and I

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Speaker 1: get that now. But I saw Tad is you know,

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Speaker 1: a really really great guy. I never saw that he

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Speaker 1: would do anything like this, so I did not believe it.

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Speaker 1: And then I had seen the you know, the reports

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Speaker 1: on Facebook, and I had two or three other people

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Speaker 1: call me. Um, a friend that I haven't talked to

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Speaker 1: in you know, three years, called me and was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it could have been you. Like that's

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Speaker 1: everybody knew he and I were really close. So it

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Speaker 1: was definitely a shock, and I definitely did not want

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Speaker 1: to believe it at first. But it's rough. When you

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Speaker 1: heard that he had told people he's a c I,

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Speaker 1: a operative, and a black belt and so many other

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Speaker 1: tall tales. What did you think, um, To be honest,

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Speaker 1: I didn't really think too much about it, um, because

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Speaker 1: and not anything towards Elizabeth. Obviously she got told what

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Speaker 1: she got told. But there are it is a very

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Speaker 1: small school, and there are a lot of of rumors

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Speaker 1: and suspicions and jokes to get many We made jokes

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Speaker 1: about one of our other teachers being in CIA. I

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00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,960
Speaker 1: mean it was That's how I took it. I thought

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Speaker 1: maybe somebody made it up as a joke, you know.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I didn't believe that he was who

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00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 1: he is, so I didn't believe that he would make

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00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,399
Speaker 1: up all this crazy stuff about himself. But you know,

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00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,960
Speaker 1: obviously he is lied about a lot of things. So

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00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: what else do you think he's lying about? I mean,

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Speaker 1: the entire person that he is. You know he's not,

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00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 1: do you not, Tad Commons? He's not. You know, this

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00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 1: guy that was my best friend in high school, he

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00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 1: lied about all of it. He lied about who he

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00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,679
Speaker 1: was for who knows how long. Like you don't just

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Speaker 1: wake up one day and decide if you want to

347
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Speaker 1: be with a fifteen year old, especially after looking back

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Speaker 1: at all the stuff that happened with me years before.

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Speaker 1: When you say best friends, did your parents everything it

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00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,679
Speaker 1: was on your best friend was a grown man teaching

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Speaker 1: at high school, we didn't at the time. My mom

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00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 1: didn't live here. She lived, you know, a couple of

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00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,120
Speaker 1: states away, and my parents were getting divorced, and my

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00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: mom was just happy, because I was going through a

355
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: really rough time with all of it, that I had

356
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,640
Speaker 1: somebody to talk to. Um, because she had heard from

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00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 1: me what Tad was like, and obviously I didn't have

358
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Speaker 1: all that great of an intel on who he is,

359
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 1: so she thought, you know, pretty good of him as well. Um.

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Speaker 1: There were a few you know, of my friends or

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00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, other family members or people I know that

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00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 1: thought it was weird. Um, And I just didn't listen

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00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 1: to him, you know, I didn't. I didn't never think

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Speaker 1: anything of it. What did they say, Well, they one

365
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 1: of the one of them didn't like the fact that

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00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: we you know, everybody calls him by his first name. Um.

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Speaker 1: She was a school teacher as well, for an elementary

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Speaker 1: school around the area. I don't know which one, and

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00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 1: she you know, she doesn't even do that with her

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Speaker 1: elementary school kids, let them call her by her first name.

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Speaker 1: So she saw that was really weird. And I'm just

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00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: thinking through what you're saying, and it strikes me that

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Speaker 1: your mom, your mom wasn't around, she was living in

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Speaker 1: a different state. And Elizabeth's mom was gone as well.

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00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 1: And it's interesting how he prays on young girls that

376
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 1: are going through an emotional time and neither one with

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00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 1: a mother. Do you think that there are other other

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00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 1: girls like yourself and like Elizabeth that he basically groomed

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00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: to be his quote best friend? Um, I think there

380
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: definitely could have been. I know that, you know, nobody

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00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 1: I personally know was as close to Ted as I was. Um.

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00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: I had friends that still talked to him that still

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Speaker 1: you know, thought as much as I did of him,

384
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Speaker 1: But nobody, you know, talked to him as much. Nobody

385
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: had gone to church and all that stuff. But that's

386
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 1: not to say that he wasn't talking to somebody else,

387
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: you know, during the days that I weren't there or

388
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: the days of it, you know, stuff like that. There's

389
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 1: no saying he didn't have another you know, teacher's pet

390
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 1: or favorite and none of the other teachers thought it

391
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 1: was weird. No, it was a really small school and

392
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 1: everybody was already really tightened it and close anyway, So

393
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 1: you know, we got a new teacher and he was

394
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: the same. We didn't think too much of it. Knowing

395
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 1: him as well as you do. Where do you think

396
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: he is? What do you think his plan is? I definitely,

397
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 1: I really don't know. I really don't think he is

398
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 1: still in the US. Um. You know, they think maybe

399
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: he's hiding out in some you know, forests or somewhere.

400
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: But I really think that he thought all of this

401
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: through to the point that he did, and he has

402
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: done some really some some not good things obviously, but

403
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 1: he's taking precautions to protect himself. I think that they're

404
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: probably gone. I'm not saying that in a bad way,

405
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: you know. I'm really wanting her to come home. That's

406
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: all I want out of any of this is for

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00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,959
Speaker 1: her to be home with her family. But I know

408
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: that he has done a whole lot to cover his

409
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: tracks and keep them both safe. Like the draft emails

410
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. He knew what he was doing.

411
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Speaker 1: Wow with me. As Destiny Parrish, who endured a friendship

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Speaker 1: of sorts with the tag Commons, tag Commins now wanted,

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Speaker 1: and the kidnap of his student Elizabeth Thomas. Destiny, you're

414
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Speaker 1: a very lucky young lady, and I want to thank

415
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: you for being with us absolutely. Thank you so much

416
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 1: again for having me, and thank you also to crime

417
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: Con who's making our podcast possible today. Go to crime

418
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: con dot com to find out about this convergence of

419
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: crime busters and crime sleuths going down in June June nine,

420
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: and remember to use the code Nancy for off when

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00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: you're playing your trip. I hope I see you there,

422
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 1: Destiny again. I can't thank you enough for talking to us,

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00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 1: and it gives me a real insight and how into

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00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: how Elizabeth got sucked into Tad Cummins lies and all

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Speaker 1: the other teachers just apparently, uh didn't notice. Hi, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace here with crime stories and with me special guests.

427
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: The elected district attorney joining us from Tennessee, Brent Cooper.

428
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: Brent was just telling us about how at the beginning,

429
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: when they first issued the Amber alert, he was thinking, Hey,

430
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure about this. For all I know,

431
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: they're just off fishing. Boy, what did you do the

432
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: right thing and issuing that Amber alert even though you

433
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: knew Cummins and thought, man, he couldn't possibly have done this.

434
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: You did your duty and you issued that alert having

435
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 1: no idea that we would be this far into it

436
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 1: and no sign of the kidnapped girl. Elizabeth Thomas Brent,

437
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: what's your theory on where they've gone? So obvious that, uh,

438
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: you know, this was well thought out, very well planned. Um,

439
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 1: and I think as as every day goes by, the

440
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: chances that they're actually in the in the States are

441
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: aren't lower. I just think that by now they would

442
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: have had to have uh come out for uh some supplies, food, something,

443
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: and somebody would have seen them, so uh at this point,

444
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, the I guess the theory that I'm leaning

445
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: on is that because he planned this in such a

446
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: way that he had at least a twenty four hour

447
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: head start, I believe, you know, he could have gone.

448
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: They made made it straight to the Mexican border, and

449
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: uh went into Mexico, which I believe you can do

450
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: without without a passport and really without any without any

451
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: any intervention by Mexican authorities, and uh, I think they

452
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: made their way into Mexico and probably uh, found a rural,

453
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: isolated location there and uh. And another reason I think

454
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: that is because you know, his finances were Lamin idiot

455
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: had dollars that we know of, and that would certainly

456
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: go a lot, a lot further in Mexico than it

457
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: would in the States. So UM, you know that's that's

458
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: one distinct possibility at this point. But you know I

459
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 1: would have I would have said from the beginning that

460
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: to three days cops, Uh, they will be they'll be

461
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: found with me the Allergted District Attorney Brent Cooper. You know,

462
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering how they could have slipped across the

463
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: border with nobody noticing. And you believe he could be

464
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: posing as a missionary in Mexico. Why does that come

465
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: to mind? Well, actually from talking with with his family members. Um,

466
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: you know I knew he was in and his wife

467
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: went to church. But apparently he's uh, he's been very

468
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: devout Christian and uh that he studied the Bible extensively

469
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 1: and he may have even had some personal experience before

470
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: going on mission trips with his church. So UM, I

471
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: believe that that he was aware of that that culture,

472
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: so to speak. And uh, and I believe he could easily,

473
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: very easily blend in as a as a an American

474
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: missionary there, you know, uh to uh to help the

475
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: poor people of Mexico and um, you know that certain

476
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: round a role he could fit into. And uh and

477
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: uh in these in the small rural communities in in

478
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: Mexico and Central America, Uh, they don't have media coverage

479
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: like we do here. They don't have uh televisions in

480
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: every room, and they don't have the Internet in a

481
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: lot of cases. And uh it would be a lot

482
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: more easy for them to remain unnoticed there than than here. Wow.

483
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: Now you believe he's gone on mission trips to Mexico before?

484
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: What region? I don't know any specific region. But after

485
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: the meetings we had, I was I was of the

486
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: belief that he had gone on at least one trip before.

487
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: And and it's it's it's common in this area for

488
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,959
Speaker 1: churches to send church members, you know, took places like

489
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: that on mission trips you know. Oh, yes, very common

490
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: in my Methodist church back home and making there, we

491
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: send out missionaries all the time. I mean I've been

492
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: on missionships myself. Um, particularly after Katrina, I went for

493
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 1: a long time to re help rebuild following Katrina. And

494
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: that was through my my Methodist church up in New York.

495
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: So it's a very common for you know, churches here

496
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: to send out missionaries and the church puts the bill

497
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: and sends you and tries to help people. Um, in fact,

498
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: are another church I tend just sent out a whole

499
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: fleet of people to Uganda to work. And you know

500
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: it's but I could see what you're saying that he

501
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: uses that knowledge from a previous church mission trip, knows

502
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: his way around, that's where he will go naturally, wouldn't

503
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: you think definitely that's a possibility. And uh, that's why

504
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: you know I've I've asked for uh, you know, churches

505
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: in the area, especially his church to h You know,

506
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: when you when you go on those mission trips, when

507
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: you come back, you still you've made contacts there, and

508
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, I would encourage them to reach out to

509
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: their contacts in that in that part of the world

510
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: where they've gone on missions before and uh and spread

511
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: the word, you know, email them the Amber alert flyer. Well,

512
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: what role with the FBI play in that, Brent? Wouldn't

513
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: the FBI be working on the Mexico issue they you know, right,

514
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: as of now, they they have passed the the Amber

515
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: alert has been spread to the authorities in Mexico. But

516
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: you know how much publicity it's gotten, if any, down there,

517
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh. And whether or not it's been

518
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: as widely talked about there as it has been here,

519
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, I doubt it. But um, you know, we're

520
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: just anyway we can think of to get to get

521
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: the word out down there. We certainly want to. Well,

522
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,479
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if I mean, for instance, do you

523
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: know if the FBI was doing licensed grap tag tag

524
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: grabs along the interstates to see if they're tag showed up? Oh? Yeah,

525
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: we were. We were doing that, you know, starting day one. Um,

526
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: you know the we we sent out of course the

527
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: tag information and and and I know that all the

528
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: highway patrols that have those tag readers were you have

529
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: them programmed in uh so that you know, if they

530
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: got a hit on that number, it would it would

531
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: alert them as to what's going on. Wow, So your

532
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: best bet is that Tad Cummins is posing as a

533
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: missionary in Mexico. I'm really surprised Elizabeth has not tried

534
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: to reach any of her siblings or her dad, right,

535
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: And that's that's probably the most surprising part is that

536
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, a fifteen year old girl hasn't reached out

537
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: to you know, a sister or brother, uh to our

538
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: knowledge and uh and just to let them know if

539
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: nothing else, just let him know she's okay. And that's

540
00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: that's uh, you know, somewhat concerning also that that hasn't happen. Allen,

541
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: you want to jump in. Do you think, sir, that

542
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: they are that you are closing in on him? Are

543
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: you any closer than you were a couple of weeks ago?

544
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: Or what? Does this look like it's going into the

545
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: long haul? I think there's a certainly a kind of

546
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: a peak period, um that we've probably already passed, where

547
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: where this case has been talked about and and the

548
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: information is being shared. But I think every day that

549
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: that more people find out about them and see their

550
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: picture and see that tag number, I think, you know,

551
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: that's one way that things are closed. Again. The more

552
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: people that know about him, the the lesser the possibility

553
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: is that they're gonna go unnoticed. So but I do

554
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: think the every with every day that goes by, that interest,

555
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: you know, starts to drop a little bit, and especially

556
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: with with no new news to uh to revitalize the story,

557
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, we're I'm surprised that it's still

558
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: getting their attention. It is, and I'm really glad and

559
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: grateful that it is, so that we can keep people

560
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: talking about it, and we can't keep it on people's minds,

561
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: so they'll they'll continue to look forward. Well, one of

562
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: the remarkable things about this story, and Nancy and I

563
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: have covered so many of these, is how much we're

564
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: finding out about how crazy this guy was and what

565
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: he was telling his his students. A few minutes ago,

566
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: one of his former students told us that he told

567
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: students in class that he was a medical doctor who

568
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: simply retired from his medical profession and because he wanted

569
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: to teach high school. Have you heard that? I hadn't

570
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: heard that particular story, but I heard numerous other ones.

571
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: You know, we're you know, he's certainly uh building this

572
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: uh this Spanish white white what other stories? What other stories?

573
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: He told that he was former FBI and his former CIA,

574
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: and that he had millions of dollars stashed away. And

575
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: I think he even told some kids that he had

576
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: properties in different countries and and mansions and things like that.

577
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: And it's just to me the stories Groves constantly apparently

578
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: or did while he was well he was teaching. Did

579
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: you hear that song that he sang to us fourteen

580
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: year old student a few years ago? Did you hear

581
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: that happy? I did hear part of that? Were you

582
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: impressed with this musical ability or what did you think

583
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 1: of that? Sir? That's not what impressed me. Alan, That's

584
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: not what impressed me about that. Hey, I gotta ask

585
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: you something, Brent. Question guys for those of you joining

586
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: us now on our podcast here at Crime Stories with me,

587
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: is he elected d A out of Tennessee on the

588
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Thomas case? You know, he he just jarred my memory.

589
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: On one of his other tall tales, he told that

590
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: he had like a safe house and I believe he

591
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: said Costa Rica where when things got too hot, oh, Honduras, Yes,

592
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: when things got too hot in the US. You know.

593
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: I know that's a big fat lie. I know that,

594
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: but it does give you a window into his thinking.

595
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: I should have thought of that before. If he's talking

596
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: about leaving the country for a venue like Honduras when

597
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: things got to quote hot in the US. That's exactly

598
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: what he's trying to do. That's his fantasy and that's

599
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: what he's living out. If that would certainly complicated matters,

600
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: if that's what his manners to do, Yeah, I don't

601
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: think he'd easily. I got a bad, failing brand. I'm

602
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: just afraid that if he's cornered and he has nothing

603
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: left to lose, lost his wife, his family, his job.

604
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: I know he's got two guns, and it just keeps

605
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: anything my head. If if it's not handled just the

606
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: right way, this could turn into a murder suicide in

607
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: a heartbeat. And that's what I don't want for this

608
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: little girl. I feel like she just never had a

609
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: chance with that mother and everything in her life, and

610
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: now this for Pete's sake. And you know it was

611
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: interesting Brent, the other little girl, the Destiny Parish girl

612
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: that he was singing that love song too. You know

613
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: her mother was out of the picture to her mother

614
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: was living in another state during a divorce, and she

615
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: was motherless. I mean, he really focuses it in on

616
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: children that are the most vulnerable. They really don't have

617
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: anybody helping them, and I just hate it, hate it, Okay,

618
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off again. Thank you crime

619
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: Con for sponsoring us today. Go to crime con dot

620
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: com to get your off code word Nancy to register

621
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: for this big convergence of crime busters and crime sleuths.

622
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: In g June, Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off. Goodbye friend,