1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World this past Sunday, Virgin 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: Galactics Richard Branson and his team of three other people 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: made history when they went to space in a test 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: flight part of the New Space Race. For space tourist, 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: the advances we've seen with space travel and technology in 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: my lifetime are actually stunning, and I wanted to go 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: back and look at a time when the space race 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: was between the United States and Silvia Union, and the 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: Mercury Seven were the famous astronauts, including John Glenn, who 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: were going to put the United States in history books. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: That's why I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Jeff Schussel. 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: He's a historian, author, and former presidential speech writer for 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, and he's here to talk about his recent book, 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: Mercury Rising, John Glenn, John Kennedy, and the New Battleground 15 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: of the Cold War. Jeff, let me start by bringing 16 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: you to the present. What's your reaction to this summer's 17 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: sort of combine Elon Musk, Richard Branson, Jeff Bezos extravaganza. 18 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 1: Extravaganza is a good word for it. Well, first, mister speaker, 19 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: I just want to thank you so much for having 20 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: me on the program. I know we share an interest 21 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: in these subjects. It is an incredible thing that we're witnessing. 22 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: It was really something else to see Richard Branson and 23 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: the rest of his passengers and the pilot doing flips 24 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: and zero gravity and soon to be followed we know 25 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: by Jeff Bezos, and it really does feel like we 26 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: are entering that new era of space tourism, that it 27 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: is now credible it will someday be come relatively affordable. 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: I don't imagine that ordinary Americans are going to get 29 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: this opportunity down the line, but certainly more and more 30 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: folks who are not test pilots are going to get 31 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: this chance, and it really does feel like a new era. 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm curious, given your background as a historian, as a 33 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: speech letter, what drew you to write about John Glenn 34 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: and John Kennedy. I really wanted to understand why Glenn's 35 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,839 Speaker 1: flight was so significant. I was born in nineteen sixty nine, 36 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: just right after the landing of Apollo eleven, so I 37 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: missed the peak of the space race. But I certainly 38 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: grew up at a time when we knew that John 39 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: Glenn was an American hero, and we knew that he 40 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: had done something incredible. He had become the first American 41 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: to orbit the Earth. And yet later, as I studied 42 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: that period, I wanted to understand a little better why 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: that particular flight seemed to loom so much larger than 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: really just about anything other than the moon landings. And 45 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: it became clear to me that over the years kind 46 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: of separated two timelines. The space race happened over here 47 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: and it has its own timeline, and the Cold War 48 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: over there. And the high points are low points, of 49 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: course of the Cold War are Cuba and Berlin and 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia and the rest of it. But of course, 51 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: as it was experienced and understood at the time, these 52 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: were all part of the same frame. These were all 53 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: part of the same conflict, and that was certainly how 54 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: John Kennedy perceived them, and it was how Americans and 55 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: really people across the free world understood it at the time. 56 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: And I think when you look at it in that light, 57 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: you start to understand why Glenn's flight was so significant, 58 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: given when it happened and why it happened. When you 59 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: und a lot of them, real research, interviewing his children, 60 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: going through his archives, his own personal handwritten notes. Now 61 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: as a sometimes historian. I have great appreciation for people 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: willing to slow down and I actually allow history to 63 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: surround them and educate them. It's a difference thing you 64 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: thought it would be. That's a great way of putting it, 65 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: by the way, to slow down and let histories surround you. 66 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: That is really what you try to do when you're 67 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: covering this sort of subject is you want to try to, 68 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: as best you can, from a distance of decades, to 69 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: imagine how it felt and to understand what they understood 70 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: at the time, stripping away what we now know as 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: best you can. And I did emerge with a somewhat 72 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: different sense of John Glenn. I still think of him, 73 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: I'll put my cards on the table as a remarkable 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: American who did a remarkable thing or a remarkable series 75 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: of things. But I always felt in reading The Right Stuff, 76 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: which is a terrific book, and watching the movie, which 77 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: I loved, that the caricature of Glenn was a little 78 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: too dimensional. That he was a boy scout, he was 79 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: a Sunday school teacher, and he was those things. I mean, 80 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: that was authentically who John Glenn was. But it seemed 81 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: to me that there had to be more to this guy. 82 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: For him to achieve what he achieved, and in fact 83 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: there really was, and it comes through in the art archives, 84 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: in his diaries from World War Two and his letters 85 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: home from the Korean War, and it's a fighter pilot 86 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: in both of those conflicts, his notes on flight plans 87 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: from the period when he was an astronaut. You really 88 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: develop a sense of Glenn as a tougher minded guy 89 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: than I think people realize as an edgier guy, a 90 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: more ambitious guy, a more complex guy. He emerges a 91 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: little closer to three dimensions than I think we've seen 92 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: him in some of the movies. In the books, this 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: always struck me that given Glenn's background, it was impossible 94 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: to think of him as being bland, and I always 95 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: thought that was one of the weaknesses of the Right Stuff. 96 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: And if you watch Star Wars and the Right Stuff, 97 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: the romance, the adventure, of the excitement is all in 98 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: the fiction. And yet for these guys, they were at 99 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: the edge of the future and they knew it, and 100 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: they're willing to die in order to be there. It's 101 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: really quite remarkable. It is remarkable they occupied this interesting 102 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: balance between America's past and America's future. Glenn was born 103 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: in this tiny little town of Cambridge, Ohio. He grew 104 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: up in New Conquered just nearby, a town of about 105 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: a thousand people, a very patriotic town, a very religious town. 106 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: He lived what to many Americans today seems like the 107 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: cliche of small town American in the nineteen twenties, in 108 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, And he came from that world. And 109 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: yet it was Glenn who in nineteen fifty seven set 110 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: a speed record flying a Crusader jet across the United 111 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: States from la to Brooklyn in just over three hours. 112 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: It was Glenn and the other astronauts who put on 113 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: those silver spacesuits and attempted to do and succeeded in 114 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: doing something that had been the dream of generations. And 115 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: so they were familiar to many Americans as individuals. And 116 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: yet they were also bringing, as he said, a new 117 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: future that felt like fantasy. And it's really interesting conflict 118 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: in a sense, or almost to contradiction that on the 119 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: one hand, the technocratic designers wanted essentially for the astronaut 120 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: to be a little bit like the chimpanzee they sent up. 121 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: I think one of them you quote saying, keep his 122 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: gloved hands to himself. On the other hand, you have 123 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: these very macho I think there's another way to describe 124 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,119 Speaker 1: it there In the current generation, they would be almost anachronistic. 125 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: These were folks who thought, you know, they were better 126 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: than everybody else. They were willing to go prove it, 127 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: and they're willing to die to prove it. As a 128 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: general rule, they were extraordinary in that city. I'm curious 129 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: if it hadn't been Glenn, if one of his colleagues 130 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: had been picked instead, do you think it would have 131 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: been less emotionally satisfying that there were aspects of Glenn 132 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: that sort of perfectly filled out about the rule. I 133 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: think that's exactly right. I mean, I think so much 134 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: of history looks this way in retrospect, that it's the 135 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: right individual at the right moment, with the right mission. 136 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: And the fact that it was Glenn who got the 137 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: first orbital flight, which to him at first felt like 138 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: a consolation prize. He wanted to be the first man 139 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: in space, and then of course the Russians beat us 140 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: to that. But the first American in space, as many 141 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: of us knows, it was not Glenn. It was Alan Shepherd, 142 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: and then Gus Grissom went second, So the fact that 143 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: Glenn was third in the rotation was a huge disappointment 144 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: to him until it turned out that America was ready 145 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: to move from the sub orbital phase of Project Mercury 146 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: with these fifteen minute flights that went up and came 147 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: right down to the orbital phase, and it just seemed 148 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: faded that way. Glenn received a bunch of letters from 149 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: friends and others, buddies from the Marines, and of course 150 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: it was the same way in the press. The sense 151 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: was Glenn was saved by Nassa for this moment. It 152 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: wasn't actually the case, but it felt that way because 153 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: Glenn had the public standing, the personality that he seemed 154 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: ready for this mission, which was so much more dangerous 155 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: than the suborbital flights, and so much more important given 156 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: when it occurred, which was early in sixty two, nearly 157 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: a year after the Russians had orbited the Earth. There's 158 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: almost a parallelism between the first two suborbital flights and 159 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: what we're watching with Branson and with Vizos as compared 160 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: to where Musk is going, which is to a full 161 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: orbit system. So there's a lot of parallelisms. I always thought, 162 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: by the way, The one of Glenn's greatest lines was 163 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: when he said, there he is sitting on top of 164 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: the lowest bid and knowing that every single part was 165 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: part of a lowest bid, and thinking is this really 166 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: a good idea? It captured the tension of governor sense 167 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: that you want to save money, well, you would like 168 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: it to not blow up, right right, exactly, very well put. 169 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: And they certainly would have liked it not to blow up, 170 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: and they had seen this is one of the things 171 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: that I really try to bring across. And you touched 172 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: on this earlier. The incredible danger of all this. We 173 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: know now from our vantage point that Glenn got back safely. 174 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: We know that even though there was a terrible horrific 175 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: accident loss of life in Apollo one, that we did 176 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: succeed in President Kennedy's goal of getting to the moon 177 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: by the end of the decade, and there were successful 178 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: lunar missions that followed that as well. We know all 179 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: of this, but at the time this seemed to many 180 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: Americans and even many in NASA is an incredibly dangerous 181 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: thing that was going to result in a sort of 182 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: horrific and spectacular death. And there was at one point 183 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: early in the program The Mercury seven astronauts were taken 184 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: to Cape Canaveral to watch one of these launches of 185 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: the Atlas rocket, and they watched this thing lift up 186 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: and blow up, and they kind of turned to one 187 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: another gallows humor, and one of them said, you know, 188 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: I hope they fixed that thing before we have to 189 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: ride on it. And they all laughed, but privately they 190 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: had a conversation and they agreed that it was inevitable 191 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: that one of them was going to die in the 192 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: course of Project Mercury, and it was really just a 193 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: question of which one and when. And Glenn, as I 194 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: mentioned before, was the first to ride up on that 195 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: Atlas rocket, the one that they had seen blown up. 196 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: Because that rocket was the only one that we had 197 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: that was powerful enough to lift the capsule into orbit. 198 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: Shephard and Grissom had written a less powerful Redstone rocket. 199 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: These guys came out of a generation which had fought 200 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: World War Two, many of them had fought into and 201 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: at the very top end of their skill level, a 202 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: number of them had become test pilots. And the fact is, 203 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: while we were making enormous progress and speed and capability, 204 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: we killed a lot of test pilots, and I think 205 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: people forget that, Yes, being an astronaut was dangerous, but 206 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: by the way, these guys were graduates of a program 207 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: that was already dangerous, and for some reason they kept volunteering. 208 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: And I think part of it was patriotism, part of 209 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: it was ego. But I'm curious you mentioned it. One 210 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: of the really key driving things I remember this as 211 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: a child was the sudden shock of the Russians having 212 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: a satellite overhead and the degree to which that seemed 213 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: to Americans so startling. Can you describe the impact not 214 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: just on the ouse, but on the world of the 215 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: Russians taking this leap, which at one level was artificial 216 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: because Eisenhower, for budget reasons, probably could have done it 217 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: five or six years earlier and just thought it was stupid. 218 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: But nonetheless they did jump first. It was kind of impressive. 219 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: Their second satellite was even more impressive. What was the 220 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: impact of all that. The impact was tremendous. I mean, 221 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: it's hard to overstate the impact of Sputnick And as 222 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: you just suggested, it was followed immediately by Sputnik two. 223 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: We forget about Sputnick two, which was, as you said, 224 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: even more impressive. It was much much heavier. In fact, 225 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: Sputnick two, which followed only a month later in November 226 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty seven, was so much heavier that scientists 227 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: here in the United States and engineers were speculating wildly 228 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: in interviews with The New York Times about new sources 229 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: of energy, perhaps that the Soviets had developed that would 230 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: allow them to push an object that heavy up into orbit. 231 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: That was followed by the first animal in space, the 232 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: dog like It was followed by a whole series of 233 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: first one after the other, and the sense of of 234 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 1: Sputnick never really abate it as a result, it just 235 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: continued to build and build and build, because it was 236 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: understood from the beginning by a lot of Americans, not 237 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: by Eisenhower, but by a lot of Americans, and also 238 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: by American politicians, that this seemed like a national security 239 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: crisis of the first order. Lyndon Johnson saw opportunity here, 240 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: and he rushed right out in the hours after Sputnik 241 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: to attack the Eisenhower administration. And he said, and many 242 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: others echoed him, including John Kennedy, down the line, he 243 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: said that if the Soviets are able to control space, 244 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: they can control life here on Earth. And there were 245 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: these lurid fantasies about space stations built by the Soviets 246 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: that would be armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons. 247 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: There were notions of the Soviets building a nuclear base 248 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: on the Moon outside of the reach of US defenses, 249 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: and so these fears began to build and build, and 250 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: not just in the United States, but across the free world. 251 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: I very soon significant part of our program was Werner 252 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: from Brun and a group of German engineers and scientists 253 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: that defected to the US right after the war. To 254 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: one extent, for the Russians, the Soviets also being helped 255 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: by German emigrants. Did you have any idea Did that 256 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: come up at all in your research? It came up 257 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: only a bit. There were certainly Germans who were drawn 258 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: into the Soviet program. It does not seem to me, 259 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: although I'm not an expert on this subject, that they 260 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: played as meaningful a role as they did here in 261 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: the United States, that it was kept fairly close in 262 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. There was no Russian equivalent of Werner 263 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: von Braun. German equivalent in the Russian program of von Braun, 264 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: which is intertually, just because in many ways the great 265 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: American achievement of getting to the moon is actually a 266 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: German American achievement because von Brono had the same design. 267 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: I think for thirty years just kept looking for some 268 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: sponsor to build a big enough rocket. It's an amazing 269 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: substory of this whole thing. This is one of Eisenhower's 270 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: significant mistakes and generally a brilliant administration, but he just 271 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: didn't get the psychological impact. But Kennedy comes along, and 272 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because my senses, and I want 273 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: you to correct me if I've got this wrong. My 274 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: sense is that Kennedy really saw this as a Cold 275 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: War propaganda coup wrapped in a romantic sense of the 276 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: human race reaching out, and his great rhetorical ability to 277 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: sort of take a coldly calculated project designed to dish 278 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: the Russians, but to describe it to the American people 279 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: in the world as a noble experiment in the direction 280 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: of the human race getting to the moon. There's a 281 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: brilliant example of great political leadership. Is that sort of 282 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: your sense of what was going on? That's exactly my sense. 283 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: The romance came a little later Kennedy first saw it 284 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: in a pretty cold eyed fashion, as he described it 285 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: as a wold war concern, as a battle that was 286 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: playing out in the eyes of the world, and Kennedy 287 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: understood in a way that Eisenhower didn't, that the world 288 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: was making judgments about these two superpowers on the basis 289 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: of what they were able to do in space. Kennedy 290 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty saw and used the power of space 291 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: as a campaign issue. He went out and said repeatedly 292 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: that if the United States was going to be second 293 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: in space, and that was a phrase he used a 294 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: lot during the campaign, that we were going to be 295 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: second in the eyes of the world in military power 296 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: and science and technology, and in this larger struggle between 297 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: freedom and totalitarianism, that the Allies were looking to the 298 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: United States to see whether we were really true going 299 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: to be able to compete in this new arena. A 300 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: communist block was celebrating every one of these Russian victories. 301 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: And then there was this vast territory around the world 302 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: that was described as the uncommitted nations who were said 303 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: to be deciding which of these two systems would bring 304 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: them more speedily toward the future, that they sought, and 305 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: at that moment, it really looked like the Soviets were 306 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: leading that what they were doing in space was so 307 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: spectacular that it allowed people to overlook their failures here 308 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: on Earth. This maybe apocryphal, although I think I remember 309 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: it from my childhood. You may remember the story that 310 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: our first two efforts to catch up our failures, that 311 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: they blow up and don't work, And the story was 312 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: told that in places like Budapest and the satellite countries. 313 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: The reaction of people was, can you imagine the confidence 314 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: of the country that's willing to let you watch their failures? 315 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: Totally different than we would have thought would The impact 316 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: of American openness was profound, and it was a double 317 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: edged sword because, as he said, we were failing in 318 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: public before the eyes of the world, and every one 319 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: of those rockets that blew up was not only front 320 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: page news here in the United States but around the 321 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: world because they were watching. While the Soviets were able 322 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: to fail in secret, no one was even completely sure 323 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: where their launchpad was, and they didn't announce with any 324 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: sort of build up that they were going to send 325 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: Uri Gagarin into space as the first attempt to orbit 326 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: the Earth. They simply did it, and it was only 327 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: when it was happening that they were willing to reveal it. 328 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: So when they had horrific accidents, and they had some 329 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: spectacular accidents. I mean, there was an explosion on the 330 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: launch pad that killed more than one hundred people, we 331 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: didn't know anything about it. One of their cosmonauts died 332 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: in a terrible training fire. We didn't know anything about 333 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: it for decades. And so the Soviet program had the 334 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: aura of a kind of invincibility because they were in secret. 335 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: But this I said, it was a double edged sword. 336 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: When the American program turns the corner and begins to succeed, 337 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: it is bringing the world along with it, and it 338 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: shows a superpower that, in its confidence, is willing to 339 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: let the world in on the risks that it's facing, 340 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: the dangers that it's facing, and then in a way 341 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: to share in the success in that process. I saw 342 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: a picture the other day of Yuri Gagaron just in 343 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: sort of casual clothes. I don't know if it was 344 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: right after you've gotten out of his suit or what, 345 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: and I may be projecting this. It was just very 346 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: striking that he's kind of a normal guy that they 347 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: got to go do this. When you look at that 348 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: and you compare with a John Glynn or you compare 349 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: with the astronauts who actually got to the moon, I mean, 350 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: all of our guys had a sense of sort of 351 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: self regard, confidence, bravado that made them, I thought, sort 352 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: of prototypes to be heroic figures. I think that's right. 353 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: There was a humbleness to Gagarin which everyone around him 354 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: saw and described, and it was very appealing, and they 355 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: chose him in part because he represented the best, as 356 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: they saw it, of the kind of humble Russian agrarian. 357 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: That he was their prototype of what they wanted the 358 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: Russians to be seen as. And in fact, the guy 359 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: who got bumped from the first flight, a guy named 360 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: German Titov, who actually wound up orbiting second in August 361 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty one, was a little more of the 362 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: American model of the kind of self regarding pilot. He 363 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: had kind of swagger in his step, and there was 364 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: actually a decision on the part of some of the 365 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: Russian leadership that they wanted Gagarin to represent Russia first 366 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: and foremost before the eyes of the world. It's interesting 367 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: in terms of tension in being worried. You start your 368 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: book with the Friendship seven launch, which is nineteen sixty two, 369 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: and that's the launch that makes John Glenn the first 370 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: American to orre with the Earth. But if I remember correctly, 371 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: you report that the launch is delayed ten times. That 372 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: must have been unbelievably nerve wracking. It was nerve racking. 373 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: It was agonizing for Glenn and for all Americans, and 374 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: again around the world, people were frozen in fear that 375 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: these were ill portents. Every time there was a postponement, 376 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: and as you said, ten times, this launch was scrubbed. 377 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: Over the course of four months. It went on and on. 378 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: The press began to describe it as our national ordeal. 379 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: And it was postponed for all kinds of reasons. It 380 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: was postponed because there was a fuel leak in the 381 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: booster rocket. It was postponed because there were problems in 382 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: the capsule. It was delayed because there was a leak 383 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: in Glenn's space suit. The ring that held its gloves 384 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: onto the rest of the suit was leaking oxygen. It 385 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: was one thing after another. It was the weather. The 386 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: weather was not good enough to allow him to splash 387 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: down safely in the ocean where he was supposed to 388 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: splash down. So it began to seem like the American 389 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: program was doomed. It was star crossed to use an 390 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: ill placed pun here. And the longer these delays went on, 391 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: the more people began to worry about the outcome, and 392 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: that included Glenn himself. In fact, the most I think 393 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: surprising and chilling document that I found in the Glenn archives, 394 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: and it had never been published before, was a script 395 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: that Glenn wrote for a recording that he made for 396 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: his two teenage children that was going to be played 397 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: in the event that he didn't come back alive. And 398 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: it begins on a very frank note. He says, if 399 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: you hear this, I've been killed. And he talks in 400 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: this recording about his belief in God, his belief in 401 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: an afterlife. He talks to his children about how he 402 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: wants them to conduct themselves at the funeral at Arlington, 403 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: given that there would probably not be a body to bury. 404 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it is very very frank stuff, and it 405 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: gives you a sense of glenn state of mind on 406 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: the eve of his flight. Amazing, what was the NASA 407 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: attitude at this want? I mean, this is their baby, 408 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: and in a sense they have ultimate responsibility to try 409 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: to get him up by back down safely. The NASA 410 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: attitude was profound nervousness, and that probably puts it mildly. 411 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: They knew that what they were about to do in 412 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: Glenn's flight was considerably more dangerous than what had already 413 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: been accomplished in the Shepherd and Grisom flights, and they 414 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: went back and forth. There was a moment when it 415 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: really looked like Glenn was going to fly at the 416 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: end of January in nineteen sixty two, so a month 417 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: before he actually went up, and he was strapped into 418 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: the capsule put atop that rocket. He sat there for 419 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: five hours while they dealt with one problem after another, 420 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: and ultimately the weather caused them to scrub the flight, 421 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: and the head of Project Mercury Guy named Walt Williams, 422 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: said later that he was incredibly relieved because he just 423 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: had a sense of foreboding about the whole thing. He 424 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: didn't want it to go. So they were well aware 425 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: that something terrible might transpire here, and that if something 426 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: went wrong in space that there was probably not a 427 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: lot that they could do to correct it. The whole 428 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: system of course was competitive at the Soviets. When you 429 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: look back at it and you look at all the documentation, 430 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: do you think it was ever likely that the Soviets could, 431 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: in fact, over time outperformance. That's a great question, and 432 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,959 Speaker 1: I think that, again, allowing for this sense of inevitability 433 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: that we have to try to clear away, to answer 434 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 1: question like that, it seems, knowing what we know today, 435 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: certainly not what they knew at the time. The programs 436 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: had two very different philosophies. The Soviets were going for 437 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: shock and awe, and so they were selecting missions that 438 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: would shock the world because they were achieving something new 439 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: and dramatic, whereas the US was very incrementally building toward 440 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: a goal. Every single one of these missions. They were 441 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: like stepping stones across a vast river, and so there 442 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: was a sense of the arc of the program over 443 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: the course of a ten or twelve year span, and 444 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: a sense of patients, certainly frustration and profound frustration at 445 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: NASA that the Soviets were beating us to some of 446 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: these shared goals, like putting a man into orbit. But 447 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: the United States was slow and steady, and the Soviets, 448 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: by failing to adopt the same approach. They were cutting corners, 449 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: they were failing to test certain propositions that were going 450 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: to become important later with more complex missions and so forth. 451 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: And so the two philosophies ultimately lead in a way 452 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: toward the results. You might expect that the United States 453 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: does step by step get to the moon, and the 454 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: Soviets fail in that. The other thing that I think 455 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: is really important because in retrospect, this was a success. 456 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: In retrospect, it was the great vision of an assassinated president, 457 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: and retrospect Kennedy is a remarkably articulate, romantic, and attractive person. 458 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: But just before he keep his speech, Gallup said, fifty 459 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: eight percent of the country was opposed to spending the 460 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: forty billion dollars, and only about a third of the 461 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: country was willing to spend that much money to the 462 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: other man on the Moon. I mean, it was actually 463 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: a very gutsy decision by Kennedy to go out on 464 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: a limb to try to take the nation with him 465 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: on what was back then really big money. Are you 466 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: surprised when you look back at the scale of the 467 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: gamble who Kennedy took? It is surprising the scale of 468 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: the gamble especially because he was aunt convert to the idea. 469 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: He did not barrel into office with this notion that 470 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: we were going to get to the Moon by God 471 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: one way or another. He had campaigned, as I said before, 472 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: against being second in space, but he didn't have a 473 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: great plan to make America first in space, and he 474 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: was immediately distracted by more pressing concerns when he got 475 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: into office. So it was only when Uri gagar In 476 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: orbited the Earth in April nineteen sixty one that the 477 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: Russians really forced the issue, and Kennedy had to make 478 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: a decision about how we could possibly someday surpass the Russians, 479 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: and he asked Lyndon Johnson to take charge of the 480 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: process that would put options in front of him. It 481 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: seemed that the only chance really was to go to 482 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 1: the Moon. That there was no way we were going 483 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: to catch the Soviets in the near term. They were 484 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: just too far ahead. So looking almost a decade into 485 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: the future and imagining all of the technology that would 486 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: have to be developed between now and then, all of 487 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: the investment that would have to be poured into it, 488 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: there was a chance, not a guarantee, but a chance 489 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: we could get there. But when Kennedy announces that goal 490 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: in the speech that you mentioned in late May nineteen 491 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: sixty one, it's really fascinating to go back and look 492 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: at that. There's the much quoted line about sending a 493 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: man to the moon by the end of the decade 494 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: and bringing him safely back to the Earth. And yet 495 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: after he utters that line, he begins to shuffle the 496 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: pages of his speech and go off script, and he 497 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: seems uncomfortable, and he's stuttering a little bit, and he's 498 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: essentially saying to the Congress, I mean, this is paraphrasing, 499 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: but he says, look, this is going to be really difficult. 500 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: This is going to be really expensive, and you've got 501 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: to be if you're going to do this, you need 502 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: to think long and hard about it, because it's going 503 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: to require a long term commitment on the part of 504 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 1: all of you and on the part of the public. 505 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: And when he went back to the White House, he 506 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: talked to his speechwriter Ted Sorenson, and he said, essentially, 507 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I sold it. I was reading the 508 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: crowd there in the House chamber, and I don't think 509 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: they were with me. They were pretty confident they were 510 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: going to get the money that he was asking for, 511 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: but he didn't seem to have a lot of believers 512 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: in the room. Yeah, it's interesting in that sense. I think. 513 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that 514 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: one of the great one told stories is that Lyndon 515 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: Johnson was actually a remarkably positive force going back to 516 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: his Senate majority days right after Sputnik, and that Johnson 517 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: really was much more pro space than Kennedy was and 518 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: had a much more sophisticated understanding of what we ought 519 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: to be doing. And does that fit what you learned? 520 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Johnson was way ahead of Kennedy on this. 521 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: He was really way ahead of just about everybody on this. 522 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier, immediately after Sputnik went up, Johnson 523 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: began to speak out about his concern about falling behind 524 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: the Russians at the very start of this new era, 525 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: and he continued to beat the drum. He began a 526 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: series of hearings in late nineteen fifty seven that went 527 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: into the early into the new year, attacking the administration. 528 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: And so there was opportunism in that, but this also 529 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: came from genuine concern that if the Soviets had space 530 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: to themselves, in effect, what would they do with it? 531 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: We continued to say that our purposes were peaceful, that 532 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: nobody imagined that the Soviets purposes were peaceful. And so 533 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: Johnson does more really than anyone in Washington to build 534 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: a consensus behind the idea not only that we have 535 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: to do something, but that in the near term that 536 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: thing would be the creation of a civilian space agency NASA, 537 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: which happened later in nineteen fifty eight, and Eisenhower was 538 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: not particularly keen on the idea. He derided it privately 539 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: as a great department of space. It was sort of 540 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: a sarcastic phrase of his. But he came around to 541 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: the idea that it was a political necessity and possibly 542 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: even a military necessity, to move manned space flight away 543 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: from the military branches where they were concocting these plans 544 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: about kind of having essentially combat in space and to 545 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: move it to a civilian space agency so that we 546 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: could show the world that we were effective in space, 547 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: but also that we meant what we said when we 548 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: set our purposes were peaceful. Now, this book's a fascinating 549 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: sure of an extraordinarily important turning point in American life. 550 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: Of course, it's perfectly with what we're watching, with the 551 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: three great entrepreneurs who are out there finding ways to 552 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: get into space. I'm just truish. It's such a great contribution. Jeff. 553 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: What are you working on now? Well, thank you so 554 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: much for that. What I'm working on now is mostly 555 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: getting out here and talking about this book and telling 556 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: these stories. I haven't developed my next idea yet, but 557 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: I'm also very lucky to have a very busy at 558 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: day job at West Wing Writers, which is a group 559 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: of us. You mentioned that I had been a speechwriter 560 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: for President Clinton, and we moved our corner of the 561 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: shop to the private sector twenty years ago and we're 562 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: continuing to do that work. Well, I have to say, 563 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: ruefully and somebody who competed with you guys that Clinton 564 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: had an excellent team, and of course he was a 565 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: great speaker, and he was very formidable, and I think 566 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: you may have been part of the armor that made 567 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: him so formidable. Well, that's very generous of you to say. 568 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: I think all of us who were lucky enough to 569 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: work with him had the humility of knowing that he 570 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: was Bill Clinton before we got there, and he was 571 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: a pretty great communicator before we got the chance to help, 572 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: but we felt very lucky to be able to be 573 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: part of the team. Listen, thank you very very much. 574 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: We will have your book on our show page and 575 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: we look forward to you coming back and visiting again 576 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: one year next Great Adventurers published. Thanks very much, mister Speaker, 577 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: has been a pleasure of talking with you. Thank you 578 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: to my guest Jeff Sessil. You can get a link 579 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: to his new book Mercury Rising, John Glenn, John Kennedy 580 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: and the New Battleground of the Cold War on our 581 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by 582 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: Inglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Motters, 583 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: our producer is Gornsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 584 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 585 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty. If 586 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 587 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 588 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn where it's all about. 589 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for 590 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at gingwish three sixty dot 591 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.