1 00:01:09,389 --> 00:01:12,669 Speaker 1: Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we 2 00:01:12,699 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,099 --> 00:01:18,459 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,499 --> 00:01:21,819 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,859 --> 00:01:24,789 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,829 --> 00:01:25,829 Speaker 2: didn't remember were there. 8 00:01:26,109 --> 00:01:28,849 Speaker 1: Therapy is like that too. There are so many learning 9 00:01:28,889 --> 00:01:31,429 Speaker 1: moments in a session and it's difficult to absorb them 10 00:01:31,489 --> 00:01:34,369 Speaker 1: all at once. So while we're not taping new episodes 11 00:01:34,449 --> 00:01:38,029 Speaker 1: right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions 12 00:01:38,129 --> 00:01:41,029 Speaker 1: as encores so that you can continue to gain value 13 00:01:41,069 --> 00:01:41,449 Speaker 1: from them. 14 00:01:41,789 --> 00:01:45,299 Speaker 2: We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,339 --> 00:01:47,979 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects and that we hope you 16 00:01:48,019 --> 00:01:49,119 Speaker 2: will love just as much. 17 00:01:49,539 --> 00:01:52,659 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,839 --> 00:01:55,139 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,399 --> 00:01:58,149 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,569 --> 00:02:02,909 Speaker 2: Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks 21 00:02:02,929 --> 00:02:06,049 Speaker 2: Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster. 22 00:02:06,489 --> 00:02:09,719 Speaker 2: You can find out more about it on my website, guywench.com. 23 00:02:10,309 --> 00:02:13,469 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,769 --> 00:02:16,619 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,649 --> 00:02:23,419 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Lori Gottlieb. 26 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:25,979 Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, 27 00:02:26,319 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. 28 00:02:29,699 --> 00:02:32,879 Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 29 00:02:33,239 --> 00:02:35,379 Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED. 30 00:02:35,779 --> 00:02:40,379 Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists. This week... We're going to 31 00:02:40,419 --> 00:02:42,379 Speaker 2: check in on a guest from season two to hear 32 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:43,819 Speaker 2: how they're doing a year later. 33 00:02:45,839 --> 00:02:49,419 Speaker 1: First, a quick note. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. 34 00:02:49,679 --> 00:02:52,929 Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is 35 00:02:52,969 --> 00:02:56,689 Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 36 00:02:56,969 --> 00:02:59,729 Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, 37 00:02:59,989 --> 00:03:02,689 Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may 38 00:03:02,709 --> 00:03:06,299 Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, 39 00:03:06,359 --> 00:03:08,699 Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part 40 00:03:08,759 --> 00:03:10,549 Speaker 1: or in full to and we may edit it for 41 00:03:10,589 --> 00:03:13,649 Speaker 1: length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all names 42 00:03:13,669 --> 00:03:19,659 Speaker 1: have been changed for the privacy of our guests. So 43 00:03:19,699 --> 00:03:22,719 Speaker 1: today we're catching up with Doug, and his episode was 44 00:03:22,839 --> 00:03:27,019 Speaker 1: called Doug's Fear of Intimacy. And a year ago, Doug 45 00:03:27,059 --> 00:03:31,339 Speaker 1: was finally in a healthy, loving relationship after the breakup 46 00:03:31,619 --> 00:03:35,399 Speaker 1: of a long-term relationship that left a lot of emotional scars. 47 00:03:36,199 --> 00:03:39,789 Speaker 1: And we tried to help him to understand why intimacy 48 00:03:39,829 --> 00:03:42,729 Speaker 1: was so scary for him and how much his earlier 49 00:03:42,789 --> 00:03:46,649 Speaker 1: romantic relationship affected him and how he could be vulnerable 50 00:03:46,689 --> 00:03:49,789 Speaker 1: in his current relationship in order to feel safe and 51 00:03:49,869 --> 00:03:53,279 Speaker 1: cared for. Here's what was going on with him back then. 52 00:03:53,959 --> 00:03:55,939 Speaker 3: I feel like I can be much more open and 53 00:03:55,999 --> 00:03:58,639 Speaker 3: honest with Lucas. And I feel like I have been. 54 00:03:58,659 --> 00:04:03,069 Speaker 3: There are definitely times when I get in my head 55 00:04:03,359 --> 00:04:10,189 Speaker 3: or I don't feel comfortable being super open about how 56 00:04:10,229 --> 00:04:14,869 Speaker 3: I'm feeling, he'll ask me. And I think that's kind 57 00:04:14,889 --> 00:04:17,329 Speaker 3: of where I struggle is he'll ask me and I'll 58 00:04:17,369 --> 00:04:19,869 Speaker 3: say everything's fine and he'll ask me again and I 59 00:04:19,909 --> 00:04:25,119 Speaker 3: can feel myself getting angry. Even though he's not doing 60 00:04:25,159 --> 00:04:27,759 Speaker 3: it because he has OCD, I think I still have 61 00:04:27,819 --> 00:04:31,179 Speaker 3: those thoughts where if somebody asks me the same question 62 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:34,959 Speaker 3: a couple of times, I just tense up. 63 00:04:35,719 --> 00:04:37,979 Speaker 2: Doug was also dealing with the fact that his parents 64 00:04:38,039 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 2: didn't want to acknowledge that he was gay. And so 65 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,749 Speaker 2: this was another area where he couldn't express himself authentically. 66 00:04:48,669 --> 00:04:52,639 Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapist from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after. 67 00:04:52,479 --> 00:05:04,809 Speaker 2: A short break. So now let's hear how things are 68 00:05:04,829 --> 00:05:06,269 Speaker 2: going for Doug a year later. 69 00:05:07,209 --> 00:05:09,659 Speaker 4: Hey, Guy and Lori. A lot has happened since I 70 00:05:09,669 --> 00:05:12,579 Speaker 4: spoke with you last. I quit the job that I hated, 71 00:05:12,799 --> 00:05:15,979 Speaker 4: started grad school, and bought a house. I feel like 72 00:05:16,079 --> 00:05:18,939 Speaker 4: once I started finding my own voice, I realized there 73 00:05:18,959 --> 00:05:20,499 Speaker 4: was a lot in my life that I kind of 74 00:05:20,539 --> 00:05:23,329 Speaker 4: just let happen to me. For so long, I was 75 00:05:23,369 --> 00:05:25,789 Speaker 4: worried what others would think or say that I let 76 00:05:25,829 --> 00:05:29,089 Speaker 4: them decide what was best for me. Now I'm discovering 77 00:05:29,129 --> 00:05:32,139 Speaker 4: what I want out of my own life. Lucas and 78 00:05:32,159 --> 00:05:34,339 Speaker 4: I are still together, and he has been so supportive 79 00:05:34,369 --> 00:05:37,269 Speaker 4: during all these changes. There were many times when I 80 00:05:37,309 --> 00:05:40,549 Speaker 4: was anxious and scared, but instead of holding those inside 81 00:05:40,689 --> 00:05:43,369 Speaker 4: and dealing with them alone, I allowed myself to be 82 00:05:43,489 --> 00:05:47,009 Speaker 4: open and vulnerable with him. It has been incredibly freeing 83 00:05:47,149 --> 00:05:49,909 Speaker 4: not having to bottle those feelings up and trusting that 84 00:05:49,949 --> 00:05:54,399 Speaker 4: Lucas is there for me in those moments. Max's mom 85 00:05:54,479 --> 00:05:57,879 Speaker 4: ended up passing away from pancreatic cancer shortly after our session, 86 00:05:58,479 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 4: and that was one of the hardest moments of my life. 87 00:06:01,619 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 4: It was difficult losing such an important person to me. 88 00:06:04,859 --> 00:06:07,099 Speaker 4: I've never cried so hard in front of someone the 89 00:06:07,139 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 4: way that I did in front of Lucas. He held 90 00:06:09,779 --> 00:06:11,759 Speaker 4: me and let me cry, and I'm not sure I've 91 00:06:11,819 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 4: ever felt so safe with someone like I did then. 92 00:06:14,059 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 4: I think because of that, it has allowed me to 93 00:06:17,519 --> 00:06:20,099 Speaker 4: be open about certain things in our relationship that we 94 00:06:20,139 --> 00:06:23,339 Speaker 4: needed to deal with. I remember Lori saying that in 95 00:06:23,379 --> 00:06:25,899 Speaker 4: the past, I have been afraid that bringing up issues 96 00:06:26,009 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 4: will cause the relationship to break. But in reality, Not 97 00:06:29,859 --> 00:06:32,639 Speaker 4: bringing up those issues is what will cause the relationship 98 00:06:32,679 --> 00:06:36,049 Speaker 4: to break. I have thought about that many times when 99 00:06:36,069 --> 00:06:39,189 Speaker 4: I've been scared to address things, but it has motivated 100 00:06:39,229 --> 00:06:41,739 Speaker 4: me to push through that anxiety and to talk about it. 101 00:06:42,269 --> 00:06:44,389 Speaker 4: And you were right. It has only gotten easier the 102 00:06:44,429 --> 00:06:47,789 Speaker 4: more that I've done it. A few months after I 103 00:06:47,829 --> 00:06:50,249 Speaker 4: sent that letter to my family, I ended up spending 104 00:06:50,309 --> 00:06:54,129 Speaker 4: some time with them in person. At one point, my 105 00:06:54,169 --> 00:06:56,289 Speaker 4: mom said, we want you to be in a happy 106 00:06:56,409 --> 00:06:59,149 Speaker 4: and loving relationship in the way that God defines it. 107 00:07:00,029 --> 00:07:02,749 Speaker 4: I felt really hurt by that and honestly, I completely 108 00:07:02,789 --> 00:07:05,679 Speaker 4: shut down. But as I thought about it more, I 109 00:07:05,739 --> 00:07:08,199 Speaker 4: decided I needed to stand up for myself in person, 110 00:07:08,699 --> 00:07:11,719 Speaker 4: not just in a letter. I worked up the courage 111 00:07:11,759 --> 00:07:13,979 Speaker 4: to address the comment with them and shared how it 112 00:07:14,019 --> 00:07:16,659 Speaker 4: felt to hear what they said. I told them that 113 00:07:16,699 --> 00:07:19,579 Speaker 4: they continue to disregard and ignore who I am telling 114 00:07:19,599 --> 00:07:21,359 Speaker 4: them that I am and that it's a part of 115 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 4: me that will never go away. I told them that 116 00:07:24,299 --> 00:07:26,579 Speaker 4: I am proud of and love who I am and 117 00:07:26,629 --> 00:07:28,369 Speaker 4: that it has taken me a long time to be 118 00:07:28,409 --> 00:07:31,569 Speaker 4: able to say that. I reminded them of the letter 119 00:07:31,729 --> 00:07:34,669 Speaker 4: and said that I cannot keep having this conversation with them, 120 00:07:35,249 --> 00:07:37,329 Speaker 4: that I meant what I said about not continuing a 121 00:07:37,489 --> 00:07:40,509 Speaker 4: relationship if they could not stop saying such hurtful things. 122 00:07:41,649 --> 00:07:44,229 Speaker 4: They were defensive at first, but I really stuck to 123 00:07:44,269 --> 00:07:47,049 Speaker 4: my guns and redirected the conversation back to how I 124 00:07:47,089 --> 00:07:51,109 Speaker 4: felt and what I expected moving forward. They later came 125 00:07:51,209 --> 00:07:54,059 Speaker 4: and apologized for what they said and said they sometimes 126 00:07:54,119 --> 00:07:56,619 Speaker 4: forget that I'm a 32-year-old man and am free to 127 00:07:56,639 --> 00:08:01,119 Speaker 4: make my own decisions. Something Guy pointed out was that 128 00:08:01,339 --> 00:08:04,659 Speaker 4: I was comfortable sharing how other people felt, but rarely 129 00:08:04,699 --> 00:08:08,019 Speaker 4: was able to speak to my own true feelings. I 130 00:08:08,059 --> 00:08:10,379 Speaker 4: never realized I did that until I listened back to 131 00:08:10,429 --> 00:08:12,749 Speaker 4: the session and heard how little I spoke of my 132 00:08:12,779 --> 00:08:16,429 Speaker 4: feelings and how limited my vocabulary of those feelings was. 133 00:08:17,489 --> 00:08:20,829 Speaker 4: I've been on quite the exploration since our session and 134 00:08:20,869 --> 00:08:22,769 Speaker 4: have been trying to be more in tune with who 135 00:08:22,849 --> 00:08:26,229 Speaker 4: I am and what I am feeling. Opening up to 136 00:08:26,249 --> 00:08:28,529 Speaker 4: the two of you was a huge first step towards 137 00:08:28,589 --> 00:08:31,959 Speaker 4: finding myself. I was ready to change, but felt so 138 00:08:32,019 --> 00:08:35,039 Speaker 4: stuck and didn't know where to start. I don't feel 139 00:08:35,059 --> 00:08:37,259 Speaker 4: like the same person I was a year ago. And 140 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:39,399 Speaker 4: I'm sure a year from now, listening back to this, 141 00:08:39,899 --> 00:08:42,869 Speaker 4: I'll feel the same way again. I can't thank you 142 00:08:42,929 --> 00:08:45,569 Speaker 4: enough for having me on the show. I truly had 143 00:08:45,589 --> 00:08:47,119 Speaker 4: a transformational year because of it. 144 00:08:47,589 --> 00:08:47,949 Speaker 3: Thank you. 145 00:08:48,189 --> 00:08:48,529 Speaker 4: Take care. 146 00:08:53,749 --> 00:08:57,309 Speaker 1: Well, Doug said he had a truly transformational year and 147 00:08:57,829 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: he truly did. We like to say as therapists that 148 00:09:01,419 --> 00:09:05,889 Speaker 1: people often change gradually then suddenly. So when people write 149 00:09:05,949 --> 00:09:09,429 Speaker 1: to us, they're typically wanting some change and you can 150 00:09:09,489 --> 00:09:12,699 Speaker 1: tell from how they handle the homework Who's actually ready, 151 00:09:12,999 --> 00:09:15,819 Speaker 1: which is different from wanting change and who's not quite there. 152 00:09:15,839 --> 00:09:20,109 Speaker 1: Doug was clearly there. Even that first week, he really 153 00:09:20,189 --> 00:09:22,789 Speaker 1: dived into the homework and he did some difficult things 154 00:09:22,869 --> 00:09:26,069 Speaker 1: that moved him really far outside of his comfort zone. 155 00:09:26,389 --> 00:09:29,529 Speaker 1: Like the exercise we gave him with Lucas and then 156 00:09:29,589 --> 00:09:32,449 Speaker 1: also confronting his family who refused to acknowledge that he's 157 00:09:32,529 --> 00:09:35,619 Speaker 1: gay and that he had a loving partner. So there 158 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:37,899 Speaker 1: were so many changes. He quit his job, he started 159 00:09:37,959 --> 00:09:41,219 Speaker 1: grad school, he bought a house. So because he was ready, 160 00:09:41,439 --> 00:09:44,389 Speaker 1: it's not surprising that once the train had left the station, 161 00:09:44,579 --> 00:09:45,569 Speaker 1: it wasn't going to stop. 162 00:09:45,589 --> 00:09:48,269 Speaker 2: I'm smiling when you're saying that because that's a little 163 00:09:48,289 --> 00:09:50,349 Speaker 2: bit the image I had listening to him, that it's 164 00:09:50,369 --> 00:09:52,749 Speaker 2: this freight train that's just like, I'm going forward now 165 00:09:52,809 --> 00:09:54,549 Speaker 2: and everyone better get out of the way kind of 166 00:09:54,609 --> 00:09:56,889 Speaker 2: thing in a good way. And I think that it 167 00:09:56,949 --> 00:09:59,799 Speaker 2: was amazing to hear because yes, he said he found 168 00:09:59,879 --> 00:10:03,829 Speaker 2: his own voice and he really has. In the session, 169 00:10:03,909 --> 00:10:07,309 Speaker 2: he confronted his family by writing an email to them. 170 00:10:07,329 --> 00:10:09,049 Speaker 2: And if I recall, it took them a while to 171 00:10:09,109 --> 00:10:12,249 Speaker 2: respond to it. But here, he did it on the phone. 172 00:10:12,609 --> 00:10:14,669 Speaker 2: And not just he did it on the phone. He 173 00:10:14,709 --> 00:10:18,949 Speaker 2: did it in a much clearer way. I cannot be 174 00:10:19,029 --> 00:10:21,629 Speaker 2: in a relationship with you if you cannot accept who 175 00:10:21,669 --> 00:10:24,899 Speaker 2: I am, if you don't respect my basic personhood. And 176 00:10:24,939 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 2: when they try and redirect, no, he brings them back 177 00:10:27,479 --> 00:10:31,299 Speaker 2: to it and insists again. That is truly assertive. That 178 00:10:31,359 --> 00:10:35,119 Speaker 2: is truly assertive. finding your own voice, insisting that if 179 00:10:35,169 --> 00:10:36,709 Speaker 2: you want to be in a relationship with me, if 180 00:10:36,749 --> 00:10:38,829 Speaker 2: you love me, then you have to accept me. That 181 00:10:38,849 --> 00:10:41,509 Speaker 2: was lovely to hear. And the other thing I really 182 00:10:41,549 --> 00:10:44,449 Speaker 2: thought was amazing to hear, he remembered that I said 183 00:10:44,469 --> 00:10:47,069 Speaker 2: that he's been paying too much attention to other people's 184 00:10:47,109 --> 00:10:50,539 Speaker 2: feelings rather than his own. And here he was able to, 185 00:10:50,699 --> 00:10:53,919 Speaker 2: when he was grieving, really pay attention to his own feelings, 186 00:10:54,199 --> 00:10:58,019 Speaker 2: lean on Lucas, get that embrace for him, be vulnerable 187 00:10:58,199 --> 00:11:01,459 Speaker 2: and sad with him. And as he said, feeling so, 188 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 2: so safe with Lucas, that's him really prioritizing his feelings 189 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,869 Speaker 2: and his needs and not worrying about how that will 190 00:11:08,909 --> 00:11:11,329 Speaker 2: come across to Lucas. That was great to hear, too. 191 00:11:11,749 --> 00:11:15,099 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's really breaking these longstanding patterns that he had 192 00:11:15,139 --> 00:11:18,819 Speaker 1: in all of his relationships. with his parents, with Max, 193 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:24,459 Speaker 1: the ex-boyfriend, and learning how to do something different with Lucas. 194 00:11:24,859 --> 00:11:27,009 Speaker 1: I'm really glad he remembered that moment in the session 195 00:11:27,049 --> 00:11:30,389 Speaker 1: when he was really concerned that bringing something up would 196 00:11:30,489 --> 00:11:34,169 Speaker 1: cause relationships to break, to end. And we reminded him 197 00:11:34,189 --> 00:11:37,539 Speaker 1: that talking about something will not cause a relationship to break. 198 00:11:37,659 --> 00:11:41,729 Speaker 1: It's not talking about something. that will cause a relationship 199 00:11:41,789 --> 00:11:44,489 Speaker 1: to break. And if talking about something does cause a 200 00:11:44,529 --> 00:11:47,779 Speaker 1: relationship to break, that is not the relationship that you 201 00:11:47,819 --> 00:11:48,449 Speaker 1: want to be in. 202 00:11:49,059 --> 00:11:50,419 Speaker 2: And I want to just go back to what you 203 00:11:50,459 --> 00:11:53,819 Speaker 2: said about him being ready. This is what you see 204 00:11:53,939 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 2: when someone is ready. They will make changes in almost 205 00:11:57,179 --> 00:12:01,819 Speaker 2: every area of their lives because when you are changing 206 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:06,519 Speaker 2: something internally, it should be reflected in all kinds of 207 00:12:06,599 --> 00:12:09,289 Speaker 2: areas of your life. And here he was quitting his job, 208 00:12:09,609 --> 00:12:13,929 Speaker 2: starting school, strengthening his relationship with his boyfriend, and trying 209 00:12:13,969 --> 00:12:16,789 Speaker 2: to change the relationship with his family into a much 210 00:12:17,089 --> 00:12:21,389 Speaker 2: healthier one. So he was firing on all cylinders. And 211 00:12:21,849 --> 00:12:24,449 Speaker 2: that's what's so gratifying to see. When you're ready for change, 212 00:12:25,009 --> 00:12:26,549 Speaker 2: it can happen all around you. 213 00:12:29,309 --> 00:12:32,589 Speaker 1: Next week, we're checking in with Melissa, who had trouble 214 00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:36,429 Speaker 1: tolerating her children's emotions, to hear how she's doing one 215 00:12:36,469 --> 00:12:40,089 Speaker 1: year later. I don't think I typically will respond with 216 00:12:40,369 --> 00:12:43,009 Speaker 1: a lot of empathy. I feel like almost a repulsion 217 00:12:43,069 --> 00:12:43,629 Speaker 1: to the child. 218 00:12:43,709 --> 00:12:46,209 Speaker 2: Like, just get away from me. Just go away. Leave 219 00:12:46,269 --> 00:12:48,779 Speaker 2: me alone. I mean, I get to the point where 220 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:50,419 Speaker 2: I feel like I hate the child. 221 00:12:50,959 --> 00:12:53,999 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for 222 00:12:54,079 --> 00:12:56,939 Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please 223 00:12:56,979 --> 00:12:59,669 Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapist by telling your friends about it 224 00:12:59,929 --> 00:13:03,189 Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really 225 00:13:03,229 --> 00:13:04,309 Speaker 1: help people to find the show. 226 00:13:04,939 --> 00:13:06,999 Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, 227 00:13:07,499 --> 00:13:14,289 Speaker 2: email us at laurieandguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is 228 00:13:14,349 --> 00:13:18,869 Speaker 2: Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional 229 00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:23,509 Speaker 2: editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington, and Zachary Fisher. 230 00:13:24,009 --> 00:13:28,629 Speaker 2: Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez, and Silver Lifton. 231 00:13:29,229 --> 00:13:32,729 Speaker 2: And special thanks to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric. 232 00:13:33,239 --> 00:13:35,309 Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at our next session. 233 00:13:36,089 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 2: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.