1
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,080
Speaker 1: Hey, Kelly, how do biologists feel about quantum mechanics.

2
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,440
Speaker 2: Well, I don't feel comfortable speaking for all biologists, but

3
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,119
Speaker 2: i'd say for myself, I'm mostly uncertain.

4
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,600
Speaker 1: Are you uncertain about whether quantum mechanics makes sense?

5
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,239
Speaker 2: Well, when I was working on my PhD, I did

6
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 2: some work on neurotransmitters and steroid hormones, and all of

7
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,479
Speaker 2: that was so complicated and often didn't go as predicted.

8
00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:34,519
Speaker 2: It's hard for me to believe that when you go

9
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,680
Speaker 2: another step down to the quantum mechanics level, that we

10
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 2: could make any sense of it.

11
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 1: So are you attempted to just like brush all the

12
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:43,440
Speaker 1: quantum details into the rug?

13
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,479
Speaker 2: Well, I'd be okay with letting physicists worry about the

14
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 2: particles doing their quantum thing, and you'd all worry about

15
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,080
Speaker 2: the pests and the parasites.

16
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:58,320
Speaker 1: That feels like a fair division of labor, unless unless, what,

17
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,360
Speaker 1: unless it's actually all entangled and you can never escape

18
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. Excuse my evil cackle.

19
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:15,399
Speaker 2: It was a good evil cackle.

20
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:15,880
Speaker 3: Oh good.

21
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 2: Hi.

22
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at

23
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 1: UC Irvine, and I've been practicing my evil quantum wizard Cackle.

24
00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,319
Speaker 2: And I'm Kelly Wiener Smith, an adjunct assistant professor at

25
00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,400
Speaker 2: Rice University. And I've been trying to avoid thinking about

26
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 2: quantum mechanics and animal behavior.

27
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: But is that even possible?

28
00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,960
Speaker 2: I guess the answer is definitively no. It's collapsed to

29
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 2: know as of this.

30
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 1: Conversation, especially if you're a guest host on a physics

31
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 1: pot cast. Kelly, that's not a great way to avoid

32
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics.

33
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:03,920
Speaker 2: I've made bad choices.

34
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,040
Speaker 1: Well, welcome all of you to the podcast Daniel and

35
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,080
Speaker 1: Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio in which

36
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,600
Speaker 1: we marinate in the mysteries of quantum mechanics. We get

37
00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 1: down and dirty into the mud of the quantum realm.

38
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,519
Speaker 1: We try to understand how this incredible experience that we live,

39
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 1: all the ice cream and the goats and the blueberries

40
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 1: and the blue skies, can somehow be made of these tiny,

41
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,840
Speaker 1: frothing quantum particles that behave according to fundamentally different rules

42
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,640
Speaker 1: than the ones we experience.

43
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,400
Speaker 2: And we don't even understand the biology rules, but let's

44
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 2: try the physics ones.

45
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 1: The whole point of reductionism is to say, well, everything

46
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,440
Speaker 1: is big and complicated up here. Let's dig down deep.

47
00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,600
Speaker 1: Let's pull the universe apart and try to understand it

48
00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,840
Speaker 1: at its tiniest little bits. Maybe down there things will

49
00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 1: be simple, will be clear, will be crisp. And from

50
00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,960
Speaker 1: that understanding, from that firm foundation, maybe we could build

51
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: up a comprehension of everything else that flows from that,

52
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 1: including goats and ice cream and parasites.

53
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure I believe.

54
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,639
Speaker 1: It, but we'll find out. It's a big goal. It's

55
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,960
Speaker 1: a stretch of goal, let's say, of science. You know,

56
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,000
Speaker 1: along the way we hope to learn a few things.

57
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 1: But that's sort of the fantasy, right that we could

58
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,519
Speaker 1: understand the universe in terms of its smallest little bits.

59
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,240
Speaker 2: I do think we'll get there. It's going to be

60
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 2: a little bit hard to connect across these levels, but

61
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:28,799
Speaker 2: it's a worthy goal.

62
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,120
Speaker 1: Often in science we do a division of labor. We say, look,

63
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 1: economists can worry about things at a certain level, and

64
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: palaeontologists worry about things at another level, and quantum physicists

65
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 1: worry about things at a different level. And often these

66
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 1: levels are distinct. Like when you do fluid mechanics, you

67
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 1: don't really have to understand all the forces between the

68
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: little particles, and when you do economics, you don't have

69
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 1: to understand the chemical reactions inside everybody's fingers. You can

70
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 1: like abstract that away, and you can do science at

71
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 1: so many different levels in our universe. It's sort of

72
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 1: an amazing fact, and it's like the reason why we

73
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 1: have anything but quantum mechanics and particle physics.

74
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,640
Speaker 2: And so today you're going to try to convince me

75
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,960
Speaker 2: that we can understand animal behavior better by connecting with

76
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:13,880
Speaker 2: our quantum people. Is that right?

77
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 1: Today we're going to ask if that's really fair. We're

78
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 1: going to ask if there are cracks in that division

79
00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,680
Speaker 1: of labor, if quantum mechanics is bleeding through Somehow are

80
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,440
Speaker 1: there clues in the way we behave and animals behave

81
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,279
Speaker 1: and in the biological world that reveal the fundamental quantum

82
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,240
Speaker 1: nature of the universe or is it deeply locked behind

83
00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 1: these philosophical walls and completely abstracted away.

84
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,279
Speaker 2: It would be so nice if you could go into

85
00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 2: your own little cove and you didn't have to look out.

86
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 2: But I'm guessing the answer is going to be you

87
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,479
Speaker 2: see more clearly when you see from a variety of

88
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:47,960
Speaker 2: angles m Well.

89
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:55,680
Speaker 1: Today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question what

90
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,479
Speaker 1: is quantum biology? This does sound like the name of

91
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:00,840
Speaker 1: a weird startup, doesn't it.

92
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. I hadn't thought of it that way,

93
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,280
Speaker 2: but yeah, i'd work there. I'd apply for a job

94
00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:06,320
Speaker 2: at quantum Biology.

95
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,080
Speaker 1: Depends on which quanta they use to pay you, I suppose.

96
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 2: Y Oh, no, that's true. And then how good their

97
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,280
Speaker 2: late station is?

98
00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,279
Speaker 1: Is that you decide a job to take?

99
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,120
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I guess I'm not employed by anyone

100
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 2: right now, but that would help. That would help. And

101
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,280
Speaker 2: if they'll do my laundry, that would be great.

102
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 1: Aren't you self employed?

103
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I guess that counts, So.

104
00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,119
Speaker 1: You should ask yourself for a late station.

105
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 2: I make a pretty mean latte. I take good care

106
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:35,719
Speaker 2: of myself.

107
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 1: There you go, and you do your own laundry, right,

108
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,160
Speaker 1: So the boss is really providing over there on the

109
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:41,760
Speaker 1: science farm.

110
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,359
Speaker 2: Mmm, you make a good point. Yeah, we do do

111
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,720
Speaker 2: our own laundry around here, but we're the bosses, all right.

112
00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:49,440
Speaker 2: Point made.

113
00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,159
Speaker 1: But we're not here to talk about laundry and coffee today.

114
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,200
Speaker 1: We're here to dig into biological processes and to ask

115
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 1: whether there is a quantum nature to it, whether the

116
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,600
Speaker 1: quantum description of the universe, the quantum nature of reality

117
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,279
Speaker 1: reveals itself somehow in biology if you can find place

118
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: in biology where quantum mechanics is necessary to make things

119
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 1: work or to understand them.

120
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,040
Speaker 2: And our usual place to go to to get our

121
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 2: conversations started is the clever listeners of DJEU. Should we

122
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 2: check in with them first?

123
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, let's do that. Thanks very much everybody who volunteers

124
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 1: to answer these weird questions that you get asked without

125
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,479
Speaker 1: any chance to prepare. We love hearing your voice and

126
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,520
Speaker 1: your thoughts, and we love if you've participated. We are

127
00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: talking to you. That's right, you've been listening for years

128
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,400
Speaker 1: without participating. But you know you want to please write

129
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 1: to me two questions at Danielandjorge dot com. So before

130
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: you hear these answers, think about it for yourself for

131
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,840
Speaker 1: a minute. What is quantum biology? Here's what people had

132
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 1: to say.

133
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 4: Quantum biology is a study of microscopic life and how

134
00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,919
Speaker 4: such live influences and influenced by quantum effects. For example,

135
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,400
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure microtubules and specific cells are believed to

136
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,240
Speaker 4: exhibit potential quantum behavior.

137
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,360
Speaker 3: Well, it's definitely a super cool sounding term. Maybe it's

138
00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:16,800
Speaker 3: applying the nondeterministic nature of quantum mechanics to biology. I'm

139
00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 3: thinking about like hydrothermal vents and quantum randomness helping to

140
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 3: generate early DNA and early life.

141
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,120
Speaker 5: So quantum biology, I guess, would be looking to see

142
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,800
Speaker 5: within the human body or other animals to see if

143
00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,320
Speaker 5: there's some weird quantum effects going on, or if our

144
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 5: body somehow uses quantum mechanics in a way. So perhaps

145
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,280
Speaker 5: our senses or organs or our brain does something really weird,

146
00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:53,760
Speaker 5: like where it communicates information really fast in an impossible way,

147
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,560
Speaker 5: and so we're thinking that maybe there's some quantum phenomenon

148
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:56,920
Speaker 5: going on.

149
00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,960
Speaker 6: If we're not talking about ant man in the quantum realm,

150
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,679
Speaker 6: then I think I've heard something about this with bees

151
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 6: and their ability to see on ultraviolet, something quantum effects

152
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 6: with flowers and vision.

153
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,000
Speaker 7: I do know what biology is. I kind of know

154
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 7: what quantum is. Maybe quantum biology helps explain quantum phenomena

155
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,559
Speaker 7: that happens in biology, maybe something like bioluminescence, or maybe

156
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,280
Speaker 7: something with like how energy is transferred a photosynthesis. So

157
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:33,600
Speaker 7: maybe there's some quantum phenomena that can help explain biological processes.

158
00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,880
Speaker 1: What is quantum biology? I don't know.

159
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 8: I would guess quantum biology is the study of the

160
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,079
Speaker 8: crossover of quantum physics and biology. I kind of recall

161
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,400
Speaker 8: hearing a couple of years ago that we discovered that

162
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,000
Speaker 8: birds are able to tap into some quantum process and

163
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 8: use that for navigation, and so I would guess maybe

164
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,760
Speaker 8: it's something similar along those lines of different types of

165
00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,880
Speaker 8: biological creatures and how they are able to utilize quantum physics.

166
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 2: So those were some really great answers, and for me,

167
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,480
Speaker 2: they sparked some old memories, Like I feel like I

168
00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 2: had heard something about quantum processes and bird navigation, which

169
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,440
Speaker 2: you know, tie together my interest in animal behavior with

170
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,680
Speaker 2: quantum stuff. And it made me wonder, does something like

171
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 2: cancer like caused by mutations from UV radiation is that?

172
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,400
Speaker 2: Does that count as quantum biology? So what are we

173
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,319
Speaker 2: What is the scope that we're talking about here? In particular?

174
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 1: I see what you're doing. You're gonna say quantum mechanics

175
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 1: kills people, right, You're going to try to make us

176
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 1: look bad.

177
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 2: What is it? It's my turn to be the one

178
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 2: who who delivers the bad news. I think your evil

179
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 2: laugh is better, but I'll work on it.

180
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,160
Speaker 1: That was a good Quantum Wizard cackle. I liked it, thanks,

181
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:52,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's exactly what we're going to try to

182
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,880
Speaker 1: do today is trying to understand where quantum mechanics affects biology.

183
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,199
Speaker 1: And that's really what quantum biology is is the understand

184
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 1: of the impact of quantum mechanics, the rules of quantum mechanics,

185
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,320
Speaker 1: and how they filter up to the big stuff, the

186
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,400
Speaker 1: sloshy stuff, the goopy stuff that we love in biology.

187
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 2: So I'll be interested in seeing if understanding quantum mechanics

188
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 2: mostly helps us understand when things go wrong, or if

189
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,439
Speaker 2: it also helps us understand like helpful things like navigation.

190
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,800
Speaker 2: Is it just does it kill you when it messes up?

191
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,319
Speaker 2: Or can it be helpful?

192
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be fascinating If you need it's like quantum

193
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 1: mechanics in order to enjoy sex or something like that, that

194
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: would be cool. That'd be a good selling point for

195
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:30,840
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics.

196
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 2: I would definitely care then. Yeah, I'd buy that book.

197
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 1: All right. So let's start off by reminding ourselves what

198
00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,880
Speaker 1: the rules of the quantum realm are. What are we

199
00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,839
Speaker 1: talking about here? Because we understand that physics tells us

200
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,120
Speaker 1: about how things move and fall and inertia and motion

201
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 1: and gravity and all that stuff. But that's the kind

202
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,839
Speaker 1: of stuff we already find intuitive. We know that dolphins

203
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 1: know the rules of fluid mechanics, and that birds understand

204
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,520
Speaker 1: how to fly, and of course they have to follow

205
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,480
Speaker 1: the laws of physics. But that's classical physics. That's the

206
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 1: physics that we grew up with, the physics that we

207
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,839
Speaker 1: have an intuition for. The physics that defines why a

208
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,760
Speaker 1: ball flies through the air into your glove, or why

209
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,800
Speaker 1: a car crashes or doesn't crash. What we need to

210
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,400
Speaker 1: understand today are the rules of the quantum realm, which

211
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,440
Speaker 1: seem fundamentally different the physics basically of the tiny particles

212
00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 1: instead of the big stuff.

213
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 2: So does that rule out cancer caused by solar radiation?

214
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,440
Speaker 1: No, it does not, absolutely. Okay, as long as we

215
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,720
Speaker 1: can find a quantum link, then we can blame quantum

216
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 1: mechanics for all of cancer. Don't worry, we'll get there.

217
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 2: Oh that's great, Okay, great, I look forward to it.

218
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,880
Speaker 1: Let's do a quick review on what is the nature

219
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 1: of the quantum realm? What are we talking about here?

220
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 1: What are the rules of quantum mechanics that could influence

221
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,800
Speaker 1: biology in a weird, sort of unusual, non classical way.

222
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:52,120
Speaker 1: And point number one is that quantum mechanics has an uncertainty.

223
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,800
Speaker 1: And this is often described as like Eisenberg uncertainty principle,

224
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: there's fuzziness to the universe. But it's much more than that.

225
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 1: It's much deeper than just like we don't know where

226
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 1: that electron is. Philosophically, it requires a complete revision of

227
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,439
Speaker 1: your understanding of what location means, like in the sort

228
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,440
Speaker 1: of Bill Clinton sense, like what is means when we

229
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,280
Speaker 1: say where the electron is?

230
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 2: This is one of the raunchier shows we've done in

231
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:20,880
Speaker 2: a while.

232
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, yeah, I'm trying to keep it sexy

233
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 1: in this case. What I mean is that's more than

234
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:29,920
Speaker 1: we don't know where the electron is. It that the

235
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,840
Speaker 1: electron doesn't have a location at every point. Like when

236
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 1: you think about a baseball flying through your backyard, it's

237
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 1: very natural to think that it has a location at

238
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,960
Speaker 1: every point in time. And like freshman students of physics

239
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 1: learned to write the trajectory as a function X of t,

240
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,880
Speaker 1: which tells you where it is at every point in time.

241
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,080
Speaker 1: Because we assume that objects exist somewhere at every point

242
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 1: and that they have a smooth path. They don't like

243
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,520
Speaker 1: disappear from here and just appear over there. It's like

244
00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,240
Speaker 1: a very basic assumption of the way the world works.

245
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:06,560
Speaker 1: But that's not true for electrons. Electrons have locations at

246
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,280
Speaker 1: moments like snapshots. It's here at this time, it's there

247
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 1: at that time, But they don't have paths. They don't

248
00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 1: have to go from here to there. Even if they

249
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 1: can be here and then later be there, you don't

250
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,280
Speaker 1: have to connect them. In fact, you can't connect them

251
00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:22,680
Speaker 1: with a smooth path.

252
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 2: I guess as an animal behaviorist, I was hoping that

253
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 2: that uncertainty sort of provides an at like if you

254
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,959
Speaker 2: average it, you get an answer that tells you everything

255
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,840
Speaker 2: you need to know, so you can ignore it. But

256
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 2: we'll see if that's true.

257
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,280
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. That seems to happen when you have lots

258
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,319
Speaker 1: of electrons. When you're averaging over many, many particles, then

259
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 1: things seem to come together and behave differently. Like you

260
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,200
Speaker 1: have an individual electron, it doesn't have a path. But

261
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 1: if you have ten to twenty nine particles and exists

262
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,440
Speaker 1: in a baseball that does have a path. And so

263
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,960
Speaker 1: the weird thing about quantum mechanics is that when you

264
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,360
Speaker 1: zoom out, when you aggregate it over many many particles,

265
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: different rules emerge. And that's the mystery of the universe

266
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, like, we don't really know

267
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,920
Speaker 1: why stuff does emerge. Why when you zoom out the

268
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 1: rules seem to be different. Why can you write simple

269
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,960
Speaker 1: mathematical stories about the motion of a baseball without really

270
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 1: understanding what it's made out of and what the rules

271
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,960
Speaker 1: are for what it's made out of. It's this incredible

272
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,600
Speaker 1: magic trick we do that allows us to do science

273
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,280
Speaker 1: at so many different levels without understanding the internals. Agreed,

274
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 1: But we definitely learned that electrons don't have this property.

275
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 1: They don't have a path or trajectory. They have multiple possibilities,

276
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 1: and they can maintain those possibilities simultaneously. Like if an

277
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 1: electron interacts with something, it might go left or might

278
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,440
Speaker 1: go right, for example, when it hits a magnetic field,

279
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,760
Speaker 1: and the universe allows it to have those possibilities simultaneously,

280
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,040
Speaker 1: to say, well, maybe you went left, maybe you went right.

281
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 1: We don't know both of them are possible. You sometimes

282
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,840
Speaker 1: hear this set is like, oh, the electron is in

283
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,840
Speaker 1: two places at once. That makes it sound like, oh,

284
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 1: it's got path, it's just got more than one of them.

285
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,120
Speaker 1: But the reality is that doesn't have a path two

286
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,520
Speaker 1: probabilities of being in those places, which it can maintain

287
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 1: simultaneously without actually being in either one.

288
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,240
Speaker 2: So I am assuming we'll get to the electron transport chain.

289
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 2: I'm feeling amazed that stuff like this works when you

290
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 2: can't depend on your partner the electron, to do their part.

291
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing to me that anybody relies on electrons

292
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 1: to do anything. They don't seem very cooperative. The second

293
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 1: crucial element you have to understand about quantum mechanics to

294
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 1: think about its impact on biology is that randomness. Like,

295
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,880
Speaker 1: if an electron can interact with a magnetic field, it

296
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 1: has a probability to do one thing and a probability

297
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,840
Speaker 1: to do something else. That's very quantum mechanical. But then

298
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: sometimes we make a measurement. We say, well, I want

299
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 1: to know is the electron over here or is it

300
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 1: over there? So we interact with it with like an

301
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 1: eyeball or something big and classical. It forces the universe

302
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 1: to make a choice, is the electron over here or

303
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,240
Speaker 1: is it over there? And we want one of those

304
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 1: snapshots to collapse those probabilities. Something incredible happens in that moment,

305
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 1: something which we never otherwise experience true actual randomness. We

306
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,000
Speaker 1: think we experience randomness in the universe a lot, like

307
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 1: when you roll a die, or you flip a coin,

308
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 1: or they pull lottery numbers. But that's not actual randomness.

309
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 1: That's just chaos. That's just something which is complicated and

310
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 1: hard to predict. But if you repeated it the same way,

311
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,120
Speaker 1: exactly the same way, twice, you would get the same answer.

312
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 1: Chaos is when things are very sensitive to exactly how

313
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 1: you've done them. Randomness means if you do things exactly

314
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,400
Speaker 1: the same way twice, you get different outcomes.

315
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,720
Speaker 2: So I'm finding myself realizing that I'm not one hundred

316
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,800
Speaker 2: percent clear on the difference between randomness and uncertainty. Does

317
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,440
Speaker 2: the randomness generate uncertainty?

318
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, It works sort of both ways. The randomness

319
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 1: generates an uncertainty, but the uncertainty allows for randomness. The

320
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 1: uncertainty says, oh, there's several possible outcomes for the electron,

321
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 1: and then the universe comes and it picks one. How

322
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 1: does that happen If the electron has a fifty percent

323
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 1: chance of being left and fifty percent chance of being right,

324
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 1: somehow the universe decides, Oh, this electron's left or this

325
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 1: electron's right. We don't know what the mechanism is for that.

326
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 1: We don't have any way to do that ourselves. Like

327
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,159
Speaker 1: if you came into being said Daniel, build me a

328
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 1: device which will generate random outcomes left or right ones

329
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 1: or zeros, I couldn't do it unless I connected myself

330
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 1: somehow to a truly random quantum process, Like I couldn't

331
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 1: build a random number generator on a computer. You probably

332
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 1: have one on your computer, but it's not actually a

333
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,800
Speaker 1: random number generator. You run it twice the same way,

334
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,200
Speaker 1: it will generate exactly the same series twice. The only

335
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,680
Speaker 1: way we have to generate randomness in the universe is

336
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,400
Speaker 1: to connect to quantum mechanical processes. Cosmic rays and electrons

337
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,359
Speaker 1: and anything tiny and quantum can actually be random.

338
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 2: And so we do have random generators using quantum processes.

339
00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 2: And can you give an example of like a process

340
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 2: that requires that actual kind of randomness as opposed to

341
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,760
Speaker 2: you know, the random number generators I can get on Google.

342
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 1: Most things don't need real quantum randomness. Most things are

343
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,239
Speaker 1: fine with what we call pseudo orandom number generators that

344
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,560
Speaker 1: approximate randomness. And so for most applications, like you're running

345
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,959
Speaker 1: a simulation or something, you can do just fine with

346
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,120
Speaker 1: pseudo random number generators. You can create real random number

347
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 1: generators if, for example, you have like a camera quointed

348
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 1: at a cosmic ray detector. Cosmic rays are quantum particles

349
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,800
Speaker 1: and they are truly random, and if you use that

350
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: as like a seed, then you can generate actual random numbers.

351
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 1: But there are very are few things that really need

352
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:43,679
Speaker 1: true randomness.

353
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 2: That's good because I use the Google random number generator

354
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 2: a lot.

355
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fine, exactly, it's fine.

356
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so we got uncertainty and randomness. Is

357
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,320
Speaker 2: there anything else we need to know about quantum mechanics

358
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 2: before we move on?

359
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 1: Well, the word quantum means something important. Quantum means like

360
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 1: a unit, a discrete chunk, and that tells us something

361
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,679
Speaker 1: about how the world works. Quantum mechanics gives us a

362
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 1: picture of the universe that's not smooth and infinitely divisible,

363
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,200
Speaker 1: but built out of discrete packets. And that's a little weird.

364
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 1: It's not something we're used to. Like. If you imagine

365
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,200
Speaker 1: talking to your friend or cackling loudly, right, you can

366
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 1: cackle loudly or you can cackle quietly, and you can

367
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 1: make that cackle quieter and quieter, and it feels like

368
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: you could keep making that quieter forever, like keep making

369
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 1: it half as loud and half as loud and half

370
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,479
Speaker 1: as loud, and you could just keep going forever. Right,

371
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 1: there's no minimum loudness.

372
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 2: Okay, sounds like it would get annoying pretty quick.

373
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 1: It's like that song, right, a little bit quieter now,

374
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 1: a little bit softer now, but.

375
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 2: It doesn't go on forever, and that's what you enjoy it.

376
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. If it went on forever, it would be annoying.

377
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 1: But you can't do that with things like a light beam.

378
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,200
Speaker 1: A light beam seems like it's continuous. It seems like

379
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 1: you could dial it up to really bright or really dim,

380
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 1: and that you could keep making it dimmer and dimmer

381
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 1: and dimmer forever. But the truth is you can't because

382
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 1: that light beam is made of quantum objects, individual packets

383
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 1: of light photons, and so there is a minimum brightness

384
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 1: you dial your laser down, so it's emitting one photon

385
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 1: at a time. That's the minimum brightness. You can't go

386
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 1: to half a photon, or a quarter of a photon,

387
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 1: or an eighth of a photon.

388
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: So a photon is something we don't expect that will

389
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,640
Speaker 2: ever break down in more detail ever.

390
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. Is a photon fundamental or

391
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 1: is it made of other stuff? As far as we know,

392
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,199
Speaker 1: it's a ripple and a quantum field that is itself fundamental.

393
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 1: It can't be broken into smaller bits. But even if

394
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: it could, it wouldn't be a photon anymore.

395
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:39,439
Speaker 5: So.

396
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: Still, photons are the discrete unit of light. You can't

397
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 1: break them any smaller.

398
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 2: So electrons are made up of smaller parts, but when

399
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 2: you take those parts out, it's not an electron anymore.

400
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 2: So electrons are also fundamental parts, is that right?

401
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know if electrons are made of smaller

402
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 1: bits or not. Protons certainly are electrons. We don't know.

403
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 1: We suspect probably they are. We don't know what's inside them,

404
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: but yeah, if you took them apart, it wouldn't be

405
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 1: an electron anymore. The same way like if you take

406
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: a car part. It's not a car anymore.

407
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: It's just a bunch of parts, got it all right?

408
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: So the incredible thing is that these are the rules

409
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: of the quantum realm. They describe how tiny particles interact,

410
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,479
Speaker 1: and how they move through the universe, or how they

411
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: don't move through the universe because they don't go at all,

412
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 1: how they exist and froth and fluctuate. And we think

413
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 1: that the whole universe is made of these pieces. These

414
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: are like the fundamental legos of the universe. They follow

415
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: these rules. But when you put enough of these legos together,

416
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: something weird happens. Right, different rules seem to emerge. You

417
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: put a lot of these particles together, as we were

418
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 1: saying earlier, then you can start to use classical physics

419
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 1: to describe it. Baseballs don't have any real randomness. Sound

420
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: waves can be made softer and softer and softer. And

421
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: so we have the rules of the quantum realm, and

422
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: then we have the rules of sort of our realm,

423
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 1: and we don't really know how these are connected.

424
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 2: So I am yet again feeling the impulse to say,

425
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 2: doesn't this mean that we could just I've reached out

426
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 2: the quantum stuff and we don't need to go there.

427
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 1: Most of the time we can, and that's why it

428
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: took us so long to figure out quantum mechanics, because

429
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: in our world it's not obvious. We can mostly ignore

430
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: the quantum nature of our world, or we would have

431
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 1: seen it much earlier. Right. It took into like the

432
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: discovery of radioactivity, which triggered a whole revolution in the

433
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: way we think about the world, and the atom and

434
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 1: discovery of all those particles one hundred years ago, and

435
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 1: the photoelectric effect for us to see cracks in the

436
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: classical world. So it's very, very subtle, and most of

437
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: the time we can ignore it, and you biologists can

438
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 1: pretend quantum mechanics is not even a thing. Yes, But

439
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 1: that's the question of today's episode, is are there cracks

440
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 1: like that in biology where the world reveals its true nature?

441
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 2: Do you have a sense for when we started asking

442
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: questions like this, When did we start understanding quantum mechanics

443
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 2: and when is the earliest instance where people tried to

444
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: like meld it with biology.

445
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics and its foundational ideas. Day two about like

446
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: nineteen hundred. It was Albert Einstein who came up with

447
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: the idea that light came in these little packets. We

448
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: have a whole episode about how the photon was discovered

449
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: from the photoelectric effect. Basically, you shine bright lights on

450
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: metal and it will boil off electrons. And how many

451
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: electrons you get and the energy that they have tells

452
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: you a lot about how energy is transferred from the

453
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: light beam to the metal. And it reveals actually that

454
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: the light is made of these little packets because electrons

455
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: can only absorb one packet at a time, and how

456
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: that filters into biology is a fascinating question. I think

457
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: only in the last few decades have people been able

458
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 1: to make these connections between quantum mechanics and biology. Though

459
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: I think there's been a lot of woo, you know,

460
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: a lot of like, hm, we don't understand the brain

461
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: where is free will wait? Maybe quantum mechanics fills in

462
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,719
Speaker 1: that gap. So I think in terms of solid science,

463
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: we'll dig into a bunch of examples, but I think

464
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: it's just a few decades old.

465
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 2: Oh man, that's truly. You know, on your nspgrades you're

466
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: supposed to say you're interdisciplinary, but usually the answer is like, well,

467
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 2: I do two different kinds of neurochemistry. But this seems

468
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 2: to really fit the bill. So all right, that's been

469
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: a lot to absorb, my friends, Let's take a commercial

470
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: break and then we'll get some examples. All right, so

471
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: we are now caught up on quantum mechanics. Surely we

472
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: know everything there is to know about quantum.

473
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: Mechanics now, it only takes like fifteen minutes, right, and

474
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: then boom, you're a quantum mechanic.

475
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeap, easy pasy. But biology is the hard stuff. So

476
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: so now let's dig into biology. Can we start with

477
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 2: some examples where quantum mechanics helps us understand biology better?

478
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, let's dig in because in the end, we're

479
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: all made of these quantum objects, and surely at some

480
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: points their quantum nature must be important. Right. So one

481
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: of my favorites is exactly the idea you mentioned earlier,

482
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: which is electron transport chain. Maybe you should give us

483
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: a little summary about what an electron transport chain is.

484
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: I have purposefully not thought about the electron transport chain

485
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: since I was a freshman undergrad, and I've never had

486
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 2: to teach an intro biology class, so I've never had

487
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: to go over it again. So how about you tell

488
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 2: us about the electron transport chain.

489
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: Well, I have recently had to review this because my

490
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: daughter is a freshman in high school and she's taken biology,

491
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: and she prefers to ask me these questions rather than

492
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: my wife, who was a PhD in biochemistry, because when

493
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: she asks my wife, she gets what my daughter calls

494
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: a college lecture about it. And when she asks me,

495
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: it's a very short answer because I don't understand it

496
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: very well. So here goes. Electron transport chains are part

497
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: of basically how we transfer energy. You eat food, it

498
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: goes into your stomach. How does that energy get converted

499
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,239
Speaker 1: into a useful form for your body to take advantage of. Well,

500
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: there's a whole series of reactions there. This oxid, there's reduction.

501
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: All those things are part of converting your nutrients into

502
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: basically sugars that other parts of your body can use.

503
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: And how do these chemical reactions happen? Like, why do

504
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: they happen? They happen because they're energetically favorable. Stuff bumps

505
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: into other stuff and it finds that it can click

506
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: together and then doing so release some energy. In this case,

507
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: the energy that's released are electrons moving around. Basically electrons

508
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: are sliding down energy gradients. It's like you're building a

509
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: snowy hill for the electron and it just wants to

510
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: coaston down to the bottom. So these electron transport chains

511
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: are molecules passing electrons from one to the other in

512
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: order to release some energy and release it into some

513
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: storage unit, some atp or some other kind of sugar

514
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: that the body can later use.

515
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: Your slitting example sounds so fun. I'm imagining all the

516
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: electrons in my cells right now going and I feel

517
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 2: so much better about the energy I'm using.

518
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: And so mostly this is fairly straightform, and the sledding

519
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: example works because things just slide downhill. But sometimes there's

520
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: a barrier, like sometimes the electron is trapped in a

521
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: little valley and it would love to get over a

522
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: hill down to the next deeper valley where it has

523
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: lower energy, but it can't get over the hump. Right,

524
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: It's like trapped in a valley. And so if the

525
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: electron was purely a classical object like a kid on

526
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: a sled, and they weren't going fast enough to go

527
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: over that hill, then they'd be trapped there forever. Right,

528
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: If you don't have the speed to go over that hill.

529
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: You just can't go over that hill because classical objects

530
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: have to go places. If you're here and then you're there,

531
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: you have to go from here to there. There has

532
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: to be like a continuous chain of locations between here

533
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: and there for you to exist in. And if you

534
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: don't have the energy to get to some of those locations, boom,

535
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: you're trapped. Right. That's why people can get stuck in

536
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: a valley if you don't have like speed to get

537
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: over the hill.

538
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: So I'm having trouble connecting that example to like the biology.

539
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: So are you essentially saying that like it had to

540
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: be quantum particle that did this because biology absolutely required

541
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: quantum tunneling to be able to make all of this work,

542
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: because there are hills going down the electron transport chain

543
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: that we couldn't get over otherwise.

544
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly right. The electron transport chain is not

545
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: just a smooth hill. There are some barriers there, and

546
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: in order for the electrons to get from the top

547
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: to the bottom, they have to get over those barriers.

548
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: But they don't have enough energy to get over those barriers.

549
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: But they can do their quantum magic, right. Quantum particles

550
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: don't have to go over barriers. Quantum particles can be

551
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: on one side of a barrier, and then later they

552
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: can be on the other side of a barrier without

553
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: ever going through the barrier. If you have a probability

554
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: of being here and a probability of being there, you

555
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: can be here now and be there later without going

556
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: from here to there. So this is the process we

557
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: call quantum tunneling. If an electron didn't have this capability,

558
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: if it was a classical object, then it couldn't get

559
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: over these barriers. And again we're using the barriers and

560
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: the sledding example as a way to visualize like the

561
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: chemical reactions the energy ingredients that are involved in this

562
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: electron transport chain. Getting the energy from the nutrients into

563
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: your sugar as a whole series of chemical reactions that

564
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: involve like sliding down these energy gredients. But there are

565
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: bumps in this energy ingredients, and the electrons have to

566
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: quantum tunnel through those bumps, through those barriers, or the

567
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: whole thing wouldn't work.

568
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, And so there's a bunch of randomness and

569
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of uncertainty. Is it surprising that the

570
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: electron transport chain works as well as it does, like

571
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: that they don't quantum tunnel their way out of the

572
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: transport chain or something.

573
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really cool question. The concept that there's

574
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: uncertainty and randomness makes it seem like it's out of control,

575
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: like it's unpredictable, right, But remember that quantum mechanics does

576
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: make very firm predictions. It's just that it predicts the probabilities.

577
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't predict the exact outcome because there's real randomness,

578
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: but it's very firm on what the possible outcomes are.

579
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: So it doesn't say like, oh, the electron can just

580
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: do anything at once. It's not like there's no rules

581
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: at all and anything goes. This isn't like a rave, right,

582
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: There are still rules, and the quantum mechanics tells us

583
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: the electron can be here or it can be there.

584
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: It can't just like go willy nilly and join some

585
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: other party. And so it still determines what happens. And

586
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: if you average over many electrons, you can very very

587
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 1: accurately predict what's going to happen. And since there are

588
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: lots of molecules and lots of electrons involved, then even

589
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: if you can't predict an individual electron, you can still

590
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: rely on the processes happening at a reliable level.

591
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: That's kind of amazing that that system evolved.

592
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: It is sort of amazing. And it relies on the

593
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: quantum nature of the electron. Like, you could not build

594
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: this system out of tiny little balls of stuff that

595
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: move the way baseball do. So the quantum nature of

596
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: the electrone is crucial to the electron transport chain, which

597
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: is really fundamentally like our entire power chain. Based on

598
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: my understanding of ninth grade BIOLGCE.

599
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: Now, so here's the thing. Biologists have to take physics classes,

600
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: and it really seems to me like they should start

601
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: the lectures for you know, physics for biology majors by saying, look,

602
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: the electron transport chain couldn't happen without wantum mechanics. Yeah,

603
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: and then we'd pay attention.

604
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: You're saying, intro science could be taught in a more

605
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: compelling and fascinating way without turning off masses of people.

606
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: What really, unless it's the classes taught by my friends,

607
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: who I'm sure are all doing it the best possible way, I.

608
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: Do think it's really fascinating. A lot of this stuff

609
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: is often brushed over because also there's just so much

610
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: to learn, Like when you're learning about the electron transport chain,

611
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: there's so many details. Their biology is so complicated already,

612
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, so many interactions, so many pieces. It's amazing

613
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: to me that it ever works. You know, it's like

614
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: a huge Rube Goldberg machine designed by a crazy person.

615
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Goldberg machines are already kind of wild, but yes,

616
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: one that's made by a crazy person would be even

617
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: more wild. So okay, so are most of the examples

618
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: things like intro biology or like molecular biology stuff. I

619
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: guess we haven't gotten to my pet topic yet.

620
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: We're going to get there. We're going to get to

621
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: neurons and brains.

622
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, all right, so what's next?

623
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 7: Then?

624
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: On the top of energy transport are photons, Right like plants,

625
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: for example, they don't eat peanut butter sandwiches and need

626
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: to digest them the same way we do. They have

627
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: a different process. So interacting with light opens lots of

628
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: questions about the quantum nature of light, like how does

629
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: photosynthesis all work? How do we absorb that energy? And

630
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: then even for humans, light is something we rely on

631
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: to build our picture of the world. Does it matter

632
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: that it's made of individual photons? Could we see individual photons?

633
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: To me, that's a really fascinating question, like whether we're

634
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: able to interact with a quantum object, the experience a

635
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: quantum object, like a single photon hitting your eyeball. Did

636
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: you even see that?

637
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 7: Ooh?

638
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: And you know plants sometimes turn in the direction of light.

639
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: Could they turn in the direction of a single photon?

640
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, really fascinating. I think about this a lot

641
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: when I'm looking up at the night sky and you're

642
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: looking at some really dim star, some star you're just

643
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: barely able to make out, and imagine being really close

644
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: to that star. It's an enormous furnace. It's pumping out,

645
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: like huge numbers of photons out into the universe. If

646
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: you're very close to it, then your eyeball is going

647
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: to get roasted. You're inundated with photons. As you get

648
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: further and further away, those photons spread out more and more,

649
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: and now you're like between photons, and so the number

650
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 1: of photons hitting your eyeball is dropping. And now if

651
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: you're millions or billions of light years away, you're so

652
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: far away that most of the photons are not going

653
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: to hit your eyeball, but one of them might. So

654
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: to me, a really interesting question is, like, how many

655
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: photons do you need to see from a star to

656
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: see that it's there? What's the minimum number you need?

657
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: Do we know?

658
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: We actually have done this study. It's really fascinating. People

659
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: have been wondering, like can the human eyeball see an

660
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: individual photon? If you fire a single photon at the eyeball,

661
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: will somebody experience a flash in the dark? Or do

662
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: you need like five or ten or five million photons?

663
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: So people have been trying to do this experiment for decades.

664
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: It's really hard because number one, you need to be

665
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: able to generate single photons, which is not something that's

666
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: easy to do experimentally. And number two, you need to

667
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: know that a photon was generated. Like if somebody's sitting

668
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: there with the clicker and they're going to press a

669
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: button when they see a photon, you need to be

670
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: able to correlate that with like an actual photon hitting

671
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: their eye. But photons are tricky, right, Like you can't

672
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: see a photon from the side. You can only see

673
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: a photon, but it hits your eyeball, So like a

674
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: little glowing packet. Right, So this is something that was

675
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: really tricky to do. They're only really just able to

676
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: investigate conclusively a few years ago.

677
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: What was the piece of technology that opened up that question,

678
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: like better lasers or something. It's always better lasers, Probably

679
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: not better lasers this time, so.

680
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: It was fancy optics, right. So essentially, what you do

681
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: is you take a light source and you crank it

682
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: down until it's shooting out just a few photons at once.

683
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: But again, you got to know when the photons are

684
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: being shot out, so you can ask like, are you

685
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: seeing real photons? Are you just randomly clicking the button?

686
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: In order to know when a photon arrives. What they

687
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: do is they use this cranzy piece of optics that

688
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: splits a photon. So you take a photon and it

689
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: hits a special crystal call a down converter, and what

690
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: it does is it splits each photon into two photons

691
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: that have half as much energy, and so one you

692
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: can use to tell, oh, the photon was here, and

693
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: the other one you can send to your subject's eyeball.

694
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: So does that mean they're only detecting half a photon?

695
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 6: All?

696
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: Awesome? Question. They're still detecting one photon, it's just lower energy.

697
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: So if you want to send people like a green photon,

698
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: then you need to produce photons that have twice as

699
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: much energy as a green photon, and then split it

700
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: into two green photons, send one to the eyeball and

701
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: the other one to your recording device that tells you

702
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: when the photon was made. Because anything that's emitting individual photons,

703
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: those are quantum objects that they're going to be random.

704
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: You can't control when they're made. We have to record

705
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: when you made one.

706
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: And then you have to hope that your observer doesn't

707
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: blink at.

708
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: The right exactly. So in twenty sixteen, they did these

709
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: experiments with humans in dark basements shooting green photons at

710
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: their eyeballs, and those folks got it right. They were

711
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: able to like press the button at the right time

712
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: to indicate that they saw individual photons hitting their eyeballs,

713
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: which to me is kind of amazing.

714
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 2: I guess one photon is all you need to activate

715
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 2: a rot or a cone.

716
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: Yes, those rods and cones have these proteins in them

717
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: which are very very sensitive, and they change configurations when

718
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: they absorb a single photon.

719
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Are we unique? It's so nice to think we're unique.

720
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: Or are we the only ones who can view just

721
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: one photon?

722
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: Definitely not. We've seen this actually in frogs earlier, and

723
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: it's easy to do in frogs because you can just

724
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: like take their eyes and put like voltage clamps on

725
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: the optic nerve behind the eyeball and you don't have

726
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: to worry so much about them. You can't do that

727
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: kind of stuff for humans, so it's more complicated. But

728
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 1: frogs can definitely see single photons, and I suspect lots

729
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: of animals have more powerful eyes than we do. Eagles

730
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: probably can definitely see single photons.

731
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: But would they need to see in an environment that dark?

732
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: They're not usually hunting that dark.

733
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: That's true. Maybe owls, then maybe owls can see there photons. Yeah,

734
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: And so that's interacting with a quantum object, right, And

735
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 1: that opens the door to a really interesting philosophical question

736
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: about experiencing a quantum object.

737
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 2: You've just told me that we can experience a quantum

738
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: object by seeing one photon hit or eye. So what

739
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: do you have in mind that's different.

740
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can experience its quantum nature like.

741
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: Something that's really interesting about a photon is that it

742
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: can have this superposition of two possibilities. Say, for example,

743
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: you produce this photon in a way that's not clear

744
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: whether it's going to go into your left eye or

745
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: your right eye. It is a fifty percent chance of

746
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: going in either one. According to quantum mechanics, it can

747
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: maintain both those possibilities, right, as long as it doesn't

748
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: interact with a classical object that collapses its wave function,

749
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: it can maintain both possibilities. So imagine now you're doing

750
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: the same experiment, but you're not sure which eyeball it's

751
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: going to hit. If you're interacting with a quantum object,

752
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: is it possible to like experience both branches of the

753
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: wave function, to see it simultaneously in both eyes. What

754
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: would that be like subjectively to experience something with its uncertainty?

755
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: Or does our eyeball just like collapse the wave function

756
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: and we experience it and left or the right. If

757
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: you're interacting with a quantum object, it opens the door

758
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: to this possibility of like experiencing its quantum nature.

759
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: So my brain is trying to catch up. My guess

760
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: would be that it collapses when it hits the eye. Yeah,

761
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: but what's the answer do we know?

762
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: We don't know. This is not an experiment we've been

763
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: able to do, right. It's much more complicated than the

764
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: initial experiment because now you have to prepare a photon

765
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: and have it be in this quantum superposition using like

766
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: some half silver mirror whatever. And you know, the classical

767
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: theory quantum mechanics agrees with you. It says, look, the

768
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: eyeball is a big classical object. It's going to collapse

769
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 1: away function. You're going to see it in one eye

770
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: or the other eye. But there are alternative theories of

771
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics that say, you know, the collapse happens sort

772
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: of spontaneously depending on the size of the object you're

773
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: interacting with, so like differently sized parts of the eye

774
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: might have different rates of inducing the collapse. I don't know.

775
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: It's kind of bonkers, but it's a really fun edge

776
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: of quantum biology for me, trying to get things to

777
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: experience their quantum nature. I wonder if our brains are

778
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: even prepared for that.

779
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: Mine's not. I mean, it seems to me that what

780
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: it interacts with the rods or the cones, that that

781
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: should collapse it. But I don't know.

782
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: I don't know because rods and cones are just made

783
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: of quantum objects. Right at the edge of the rods

784
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: and cones are quantum some particles bound into molecules. Why

785
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: should that collapse? The wave function? That never made any

786
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: sense to me. And orthodox quantum mechanics says you put

787
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: enough quantum objects together becomes a classical object. What does

788
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: that really mean? How many quantum objects do you need

789
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 1: to put together before it becomes classical? None of those

790
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: questions have answers.

791
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, well, my brain needs a little brain break,

792
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: So how about we take a commercial break and then

793
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: we'll move on to magneto reception. Another example. All right,

794
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: my brain is back to full capacity. I'm ready to rock, Daniel,

795
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 2: let's give me another example. We're gonna be talking about

796
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: magneto reception, and I feel like this is probably when

797
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: we start talking about birds and migration. Maybe, yes, yes, exactly,

798
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: All right, let's do it.

799
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: One of the things I love thinking about in terms

800
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics and biology is what it's like to

801
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: experience the world differently, like if we had different senses.

802
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: We build this picture of the world from our vision

803
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: and our taste and our touch and our smell. But

804
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: there are other animals out there that experience the world differently.

805
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: They have like different senses that we just don't even experience.

806
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: And trying to imagine, like what is it like to

807
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: have another sense. It's like trying to imagine what it's

808
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: like to hear if you're deaf, or what it's like

809
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: to see something if you're blind. It feels like it's

810
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 1: going to be impossible to capture. And there are animals

811
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: out there that have senses that we don't have. For example,

812
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: we know now that birds, when they migrate across the world,

813
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: part of the way they find their way is by

814
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: sensing the Earth's magnetic field. Like this is something they

815
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: can experience internally. They don't like little machines on their

816
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: wrists with an arrow that they can look at with

817
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: their eyeballs. They can innately sense the magnetic field of

818
00:41:59,320 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 1: the earth.

819
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: You know, most of the time biology makes me feel

820
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: just incredible joy, But this stuff really bums me out because,

821
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 2: like I was reading Edyong's I think it's called this

822
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: Immense World, and it's all about animal umweltz and like

823
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: the different ways they sense the world, and you know,

824
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: like there are colors we don't see, there are flowers

825
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: that are even more beautiful than we can appreciate, and

826
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: the insects can see but we can't. And the idea

827
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 2: that you know, there's magnetic fields that I could see

828
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: but I'm missing it. It's amazing, but also I'm bummed

829
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: out that I don't get to appreciate these extra colors

830
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 2: and these magnetic fields. And anyway, okay, let's keep moving on.

831
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: You know, I read that book as well, and I

832
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: loved it for all the science of the ways that

833
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: the animals sense the world, But I wish that he

834
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: had dug deeper into that question, like what is it

835
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: like to experience a magnetic field? What is it like

836
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: to see the world if you're a sea scallop or

837
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: a spider with two different kinds of eyes, or to

838
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: think about the world if you're an octopus with different

839
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: kinds of brains partially distributed across your body. Maybe that's

840
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: more philosophical than he wanted to get. But I wish

841
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: he hadug deeper into that question.

842
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: I think there's maybe no way for us to know

843
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 2: yeah it without getting too philosophical.

844
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: What is it like to be about Nobody knows.

845
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 2: I mean, because he was saying, like, you know, are

846
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: there apps that you could make so you could see

847
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: the flowers but you could detect like, Okay, there's a

848
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 2: pattern here that we can't see. But if there's a

849
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: color we can't see, no app could bring that color

850
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 2: to life in a way that our eyes could pick

851
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: up on.

852
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, because the color is an experience in

853
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: your brain. It's generated in your mind. Right, The photons

854
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: are not red or green, or blue or purple, they're

855
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: just different energies in your brain creates that experience. Anyway,

856
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: back to birds and their bird brains. Birds in their

857
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: eyeballs have these weird proteins, and the proteins have electrons

858
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: in them that have opposite quantum spin. Quantum spin is

859
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 1: a property eve an electron. It's sort of similar to

860
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: spin mathematically and even physically. It's similar because it's a

861
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: kind of angular momentum, but it's also very very weird.

862
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: It's not like electrons are physically literally spinning little balls.

863
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: It's some other weird kind of spin that we call

864
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: quantum spin. But you can think of it like electrons

865
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: can either be spin up or spin down, and these

866
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: protons have these pairs of electrons, and sometimes these electrons

867
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: like to flip, like they're up and they're down, they're

868
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: up and they're down. And the rate at which they flip,

869
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: and how often they're aligned with each other or not aligned,

870
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: like are they pointing the same direction or are they

871
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: pointing opposite direction depends on how strong the magnetic field is.

872
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 1: So if you have a stronger magnetic field, the rate

873
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: at which these electrons flip their spin changes. So if

874
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: you're like watching these electrons, you can sense and you

875
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: can measure the strength of the magnetic field around you

876
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: by looking at how fast the electrons spin is flipping.

877
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: Is this specifically happening in their eyes or m hmm.

878
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: There's a special kind of protein in their eye which

879
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: is triggered by light weirdly to have this property. It's

880
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: like energized by light to get into this state where

881
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: they can then sense the magnetic field. But then it

882
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: sends that information along a different neural pathway, so we

883
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: don't really know, like what is it like to be

884
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: a bird. They're definitely getting this information, we don't know

885
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: if they're literally seeing magnetic fields like when they look

886
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: out on the world, is this part of their visual

887
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: experience or if it's an overlay on top of their

888
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: mental image the way like smell is or sound is

889
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: for you. It doesn't augment your vision. It's like another

890
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: dimension of experience. But we know they can definitely sense

891
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: these magnetic fields directly, and it relies on the quantum

892
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: properties of these electrons and the way they respond to

893
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: magnetic fields.

894
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: Oh man, it's so fun to think about what that

895
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 2: might be like to be responding to magnetic fields.

896
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: What is it like to see this in the universe? Right?

897
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: Like I want to pick up every random bird and

898
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: just interview it, Like, what's it like to be you?

899
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: Man?

900
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: I'm not sure you're gonna get the answers you're looking for.

901
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 2: Are I think a lot of people have spent their

902
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 2: career studying that question, and they're still working on it.

903
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: There are still working on it. But this sense which

904
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: evolution is just like stumbled into this mechanism again, relies

905
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: on the quantum nature of the electron. Without this quantum

906
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: flipping probabilities and reaction to magnetic fields, it wouldn't be possible.

907
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 2: I thought I had heard that turtles maybe also respond

908
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: to magnetic fields. Is that right? Do turtles have the

909
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: same system?

910
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: They might? Turtles are pretty awesome, that's true. I know

911
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: that fish have another sense that they can sense electric fields,

912
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: though I'm not sure if there's a quantum nature to it.

913
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: But fish have this like other sense that we don't

914
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: even have. You know, they can tell if there's electric fields.

915
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 1: Basically they could like see radio waves.

916
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So you have now convinced me that

917
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: this is important because we got to animal behavior and

918
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: it mattered, even if it depresses me because I don't

919
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: understand it. Okay, So what about I had mentioned at

920
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: the beginning mutations and how quantum stuff can mess up

921
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: our biology. Let's talk a bit more about that. How

922
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 2: important is that?

923
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly. We've been talking about the joy of experiencing

924
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: the world in new ways. Let's bring it down and

925
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: talk about the cancer but also sex. Right, right, we'll

926
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: talk about cancer insects at the same time.

927
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: Okay, it's a little dark, but let's go for it.

928
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: So the universe is raining down particles on us all

929
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: the time. The space out there beyond our atmosphere is

930
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: not actually empty. It's filled with tiny high energy particles.

931
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: We call them cosmic rays. They're just like little protons

932
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 1: or electrons, or sometimes like iron nuclei flying through space.

933
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: You can think of them like tiny little quantum meteors

934
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: of death. They totally are, and sometimes they smash into

935
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: our atmosphere and they cause a little shower the way

936
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: like if a rock hits the atmosphere at high speed,

937
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: it's going to burn up and create a fireball, right,

938
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: same thing happens if a proton hits the atmosphere. It

939
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: creates a shower of other particles. Some of those particles

940
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: are muons, and the muons will make it all the

941
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: way down to the ground and pass through your body.

942
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: So right now as you sit there, you're being inundated

943
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: with muons from cosmic rays. These are little particles passing

944
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: through your body. There's one per square centimeter per minute,

945
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: so it's not a huge rate. It's not like neutrinos,

946
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: which are everywhere. But these particles are passing through your

947
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: body and sometimes they interact with your DNA, that crucial

948
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: bit of your biology, damaging or flipping something to change

949
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: the encodings and the instructions for life itself.

950
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: You know, I knew that I could depend on you

951
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 2: to get to a point where I would say I

952
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 2: can't let my kid listen to this episode either, because

953
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: because then they'll be afraid of just sitting and reading books.

954
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: That will be that will be a moment of existential dreads.

955
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 2: So there we are.

956
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: You can't escape this. You can go underground in your bunker,

957
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: and you cannot escape muons. Muons can pass all the

958
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: way through the earth. We just did a really fun

959
00:48:55,640 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: episode about using muons to like see inside the Egyptian pyramids. Actually,

960
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: but muons both cause death and joy. Like muons can

961
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: give you cancer because they can change your DNA and

962
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 1: they can make a cell go crazy and start replicating

963
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: out of control. Boom, that's your cancer. The same way

964
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 1: that like ultraviolet photons when you sit on the beach

965
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: without sunblock can give you skin cancer. Muons can pass

966
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: into your body and they can give you cancer. But

967
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: they can also sometimes make your kids super smart or

968
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: super wonderful. If they hit some DNA in your reproductive system,

969
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: the bits that you're going to pass on to your kids,

970
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: then they can change the DNA that you're going to

971
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: pass on. So if you're like not very fast, they

972
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: could like flip a bit and change the encoding, and

973
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: your kids can be super duper fast, or super duper smart,

974
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: or just super different. And this actually turns out to

975
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: be a crucial element of evolution.

976
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: You know, my son is weirdly physically active for our family,

977
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 2: and he's super duper fit.

978
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: M thank you, Muons, Yeah, exactly, Muons, add true quantum

979
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: randomness to evolution. Evolution relies on exploring the space of possibilities. Right.

980
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: You need diversity, You need lots of different examples, some

981
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: of which will survive and some of which will not.

982
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: But you only get the ones that survive if you

983
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 1: create them. And so this element of randomness helps evolution

984
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: create a big diversity of creators, some of which you're

985
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: gonna make it and some of which are not. Really

986
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: helps us explore the space of possibilities. And there's real

987
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: quantum randomness there, and I think it's crucial to the

988
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: reason we're even here.

989
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, when we talked about the reproductive system,

990
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: was that the entire connection to sex? Does it get better?

991
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 8: No?

992
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: That's it? Sorry?

993
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: Oh what a let down.

994
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm not going to give you the secrets to

995
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 1: a quantum orgasm or anything like that.

996
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 2: That's what I was waiting for.

997
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: That's a billion dollar idea. I'm not just giving it

998
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: away on the podcast. Okay, that's from my startup.

999
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: Okay, well, well, and your startup's going to be called

1000
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: quantum biology through something something, all right, got it?

1001
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: But I think maybe the most intimate connection between quantum

1002
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: mechanics and biology isn't our experience, isn't our decisions. Isn't

1003
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: the choices we make about how to live our life.

1004
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: Am I going to work out this morning? Or am

1005
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: I going to have a donut? Am I going to

1006
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: take the bus today or drive my car? We seem

1007
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: to have this experience of free will, we seem to

1008
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: be able to make these decisions, and decision making in

1009
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: their brain is very complicated, if not. Something we understand

1010
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: the brain is this whole set of neurons linked together

1011
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: in a very complicated, very non linear way. And what

1012
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: we don't know is if the brain is deterministic but chaotic,

1013
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: like difficult to describe, difficult to predict because it's so complicated.

1014
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: The way, for example, if you take a brick out

1015
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: of a building and it collapses, that collapses, very complicated

1016
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 1: to describe, or like hurricanes are difficult to predict even

1017
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: though they're actually determined by everything that comes before them.

1018
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: Are the brains like that chaotic, difficult to describe but

1019
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: actually deterministic? Or is there real randomness in there is

1020
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 1: the quantum nature somehow of the bits that make are

1021
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: neurons generating randomness which leads to like an avalanche, which

1022
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: affects our decisions.

1023
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 2: Generally surprised by how often physics bleeds into philosophy and

1024
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 2: philosophy bleeds into physics. All right, So I like thinking

1025
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: about free will and how like pests and parasites impact

1026
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 2: our free will by like tinkering with our indocrine system.

1027
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 2: So you have my attention. Tell me more about how

1028
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: quantum effects made me decide that this morning was a

1029
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: smoothie morning and not a big old morning.

1030
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: Well, the short answer is we don't know, but we

1031
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: can speculate about it. And there's people on both sides

1032
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: of this argument. Some people think, no, it's impossible that

1033
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: all averages out. The quantum nature of the neuron is irrelevant.

1034
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. You could have built neurons out of

1035
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: classical objects and they would work the same way. For example,

1036
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 1: Roger Penrose famous physicist and Daniel Dennett, famous philosopher of

1037
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: the mind. They say, quote, most biologists think the quantum

1038
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: effects all just cancel out in the brain. There's no

1039
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 1: reason to think they're harnessed in any way. And the

1040
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: argument there is like, neurons aren't big, right, you know,

1041
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: even though they're built out of quantum objects. There's lots

1042
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 1: and lots of quantum objects, thousands and millions of these objects,

1043
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: all acting together, and so even if one of them

1044
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: has a little quantum fluctuation here or there, it is

1045
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: going to get averaged out. It's not like an individual

1046
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: electron moving down the electron transport chain, or a single

1047
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: muon fluctuating to be here or there to hit you

1048
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: instead of somebody else. These are big things that are

1049
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: made of lots of pieces, and so it all just

1050
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: averages out. That's the sort of conventional wisdom on how

1051
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 1: neurons work.

1052
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 2: But there's always someone willing to argue the opposite.

1053
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 1: And we don't know. We don't understand neurons well enough

1054
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: to say that it's impossible for quantum effects to influence

1055
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: their outcome. Like neurons are built on avalanches. You have

1056
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: one which triggers another, which triggers another. It's possible that

1057
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: a tiny, little avalanche can create a big one. Right.

1058
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: Scott Aronson, one of my favorite writers on like quantum

1059
00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: computing and philosophy, really a general smart guy, polymath. He said,

1060
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: brains seem balanced on a knife edge between order and chaos.

1061
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: Are they as orderly as a pendulum? Are they chaotic

1062
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: as the weather? We just don't know. And so it's

1063
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: possible that neuronal networks are sort of balanced right between

1064
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: order and chaos. That like, they are sensitive to little

1065
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 1: quantum fluctuations, but just barely.

1066
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: He was at our house the other day, and I

1067
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 2: could have talked to him about this.

1068
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 1: You met Scott Aronson.

1069
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a friend of ours.

1070
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, he is so smart. I love his blog.

1071
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: Every time I'm skeptical about some quantum computing claim, I'm like,

1072
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 1: what does Scott have to say? Oh, yeah, it's devastating.

1073
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 2: He yeah, no, he's super smart. But I didn't know

1074
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 2: that we could be talking about the nature of free will.

1075
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: So thank you for fodder for the next time he's over.

1076
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: Well, these really are two sort of connected questions, but

1077
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: also very different. Like, on one hand, we're asking is

1078
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: there true randomness in the brain, and if there is randomness,

1079
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: it means that the brain is not deterministic, which means that,

1080
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: like your predictions of whether you're going to get a

1081
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: smoothier donut are not determined. And what's unclear is that

1082
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: whether that actually leaves any opening for free will. Like,

1083
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 1: if I tell you, okay, Kelly, you're not just an automaton.

1084
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: You're not just a mechanical robot that makes decisions based

1085
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 1: on what's happened to you and decisions you made previously.

1086
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: You're a random robot. You make random decisions. Is that

1087
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: any better? Does that leave you room for free will?

1088
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 1: It feels to me like, yeah, there's a gap there,

1089
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: but it doesn't explain like the subjective experience and how

1090
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: you're somehow controlling the outcome of physical processes even if

1091
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: they're random. So I think like randomness and determinism is

1092
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: separate from the question of free will.

1093
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need a beer, So does the randomness. I

1094
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 2: feel like you could sort of predict my behaviors based

1095
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 2: on what I've done in the past, which makes me

1096
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: feel like randomness isn't dictating things, but is it? Just

1097
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: like randomness is tweaking the path I take a little

1098
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 2: bit as I go, and over time it results in

1099
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: big changes.

1100
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 1: Or yeah, exactly, because sometimes you are on a knife sedge,

1101
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: like why do you decide to take the bus or

1102
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 1: you know those moments of indecision, How do you actually

1103
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: decide whether to go this way or that way, or

1104
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: to do this or to do that? And so it

1105
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: could be very subtly influencing you, not in a way

1106
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 1: that you experience or understand.

1107
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 2: Could we study this?

1108
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so people are working to try to understand this

1109
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: by looking at individual neurons, Like let's study the neurons

1110
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,399
Speaker 1: and see how predictable are they, how sensitive are they

1111
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: to quantum fluctuations? And then let's study networks of neurons,

1112
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: like how predictable are their responses if you give them

1113
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: the same inputs, are you going to always get the

1114
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 1: same outputs? Because it might be that this kind of

1115
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 1: thing emerges only when you have the combination of quantum

1116
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 1: randomness and a chaotic system, Like you need a tiny

1117
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 1: little random thing, and then you need a system which

1118
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: is sensitive to a tiny little difference, you know, like

1119
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: a butterfly effect, like if you blow a leaf this way,

1120
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: versus that way, could you set off a hurricane or

1121
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: prevent a hurricane. You need a system that's sensitive to

1122
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: a little fluctuation, and then you need those fluctuations at

1123
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: the right point. So people are doing these experiments, but

1124
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: they're pretty hard.

1125
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I can only imagine, like even if you

1126
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 2: were just trying to study a simple organism like C. Elegans,

1127
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 2: which has you know, only a few handful of neurons,

1128
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: and we know how they're connected, we know how they develop,

1129
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 2: and I can imagine like one corner of the Petri

1130
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 2: dish is a little colder than the others, and that

1131
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 2: makes it hard to measure quantum effects exactly hard.

1132
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: That is the challenge. How do you exactly reproduce two

1133
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: circumstances so that you know you're getting different outcomes with

1134
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: the same inputs. There's a whole field of quantum mechanics,

1135
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: bomy and mechanics. It says it's impossible, and that when

1136
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: we think we're getting different outcomes on quantum experiments, actually

1137
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: it's because the initial conditions were slightly different. And so

1138
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: this is a really big challenge.

1139
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: Okay, you have given me loads of material for my

1140
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 2: next few rounds of insomnia to think about. Uh, thank

1141
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 2: you for that, and I think that's enough for my

1142
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 2: brain today.

1143
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: I think the takeaway is that we don't really know

1144
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: if our quantum nature changes the experience of life and

1145
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 1: while you're having smoothies and while you're having donuts, but

1146
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: we do know that we wouldn't be here without quantum mechanics,

1147
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: without randomness affecting your DNA and the DNA of your ancestors,

1148
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: without electrons, quantum tunneling through those barriers, all these things

1149
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: that rely on quantum mechanics, we wouldn't be here. So

1150
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: in the end, we are all quantum wizards.

1151
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 2: Oh, I like ending on a high note. We're all

1152
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 2: quantum wizards.

1153
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: That's good exactly. We all have a license to cackle

1154
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 1: our way through lives. All right, Thanks very much everybody

1155
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: for joining us on its quantum journey, and thanks very

1156
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: much Kelly for indulging in this quantum adventure.

1157
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It was a lot of

1158
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 2: fun as always.

1159
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: All Right. I hope everybody fluctuates into having a very

1160
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 1: good week and tune in next time for more science

1161
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: and curiosity. Come find us on social media, where we

1162
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: answer questions and post videos We're on Twitter, Discord, Instant

1163
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel

1164
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

1165
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1166
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.